The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway - Conversation with Rex Chapman — Facing Your Demons & the Road to Recovery

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Rex Chapman, a former NBA player and current podcast host, joins Scott to discuss his memoir, “It’s Hard for Me to Live with Me,” where he details his experience with various addictions.  Scott opens with stories about his early days as a brand strategist for Audi. Then he says whether he’d pay for Equinox’s $40k annual membership.  Algebra of Happiness: check in on your friends.  Follow our podcast across socials @profgpod: Instagram Threads X Reddit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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NMLS 1617539. Episode 299. 299 is a country good belonging to greenland in 1999 nickelodeon aired the first episode of sp Prop G Pod. In today's episode, we speak with Rex Chapman, a former NBA player and host of the SmartList podcast, Owned. We discuss with Rex his memoir, It's Hard for Me to Live With Me, where he details his experience with addiction and his road to recovery. I've known Rex for three, four years now. Rex and I were two of the eight original scripted programs launched on CNN+. And Rex is one of those guys that everyone just sort of likes. He's very genuine, very authentic. He has a very interesting story. And I think he's doing a lot

of really wonderful things. But he's one of those guys that everyone wants to put in a room of opportunity because you just meet the guy and he feels very soulful and very genuine. Okay, where am I? Where's the dog? The dog is in Hamburg, Germany. That's right. That's right. I'm going to dress up like Poland and see if I can find someone here to invade me tonight. Anyways, Hamburg feels like Karl Lagerfeld gave birth to a city. The juxtaposition of industrial aesthetic coupled with modern architecture and steel and glass wealth. Hamburg's one of those places, clearly, there's a lot of serious money here. I think Hamburgians, what are they called? Hamburglars? I don't know what they're called here. They have clearly figured out that the key to happiness, and I think there's some truth to this, is to be rich but anonymous. Like, I could not name a famous person who everybody. And these are the hardcore old money industrialists. And it's a beautiful day here.

This is one of those cities where you think, wow, this is the most beautiful city in the world, except I think it's sunny about 30 or 40 days. By the way, by the way, San Pauly, which is the kind of the number two football club here, or the smaller football club is about to be promoted because of this amazing, this amazing Australian kidian kid playing for them anyways little little local football knowledge here for omr online marketing rock stars i really like this conference it's about suppose it's 75 000 people i spoke in front of 11 000 people today and i remember the last time i spoke here it's okay i've spoken here three times and the first time i was so goddamn nervous and i thought what is it about now where i'm not as nervous? Is it my huge success? Is it the fact that the

PropGpod is the 35th most downloaded podcast in the world? We've never broken the top 100 before. I don't know. Something's like, the flywheel is flying right now, folks. So thanks very much. So if you're new to the podcast, you're about to find an inordinate amount of insight and dick jokes. Welcome, Bienkommend, Farfet Nugent. I love Germany. If I spoke German, I think I would live in Munich. I think Munich is one of the most beautiful cities. Berlin is super cool. And I mean, there's a bunch of great cities. Frankfurt's underrated. I used to no joke when I lived in San Francisco, let's get back to me. Let's get back to me. Welcome to the pod. Let's get back to Scott. When I was working, I started a consulting firm when I was 26. I dropped out a

lot because I think it's impressive that I was so stupid that I didn't know I was going to fail, which by the way, is the key criteria in being an entrepreneur to know that you're too stupid, you're going to fail. Because by the way, no business that makes sense doesn't exist already. If it made sense, it would already be out there. So you got to be a little stupid or too stupid to know you're going to fail. So with a total work experience of two years in fixed income at Morgan Stanley, I decided that I would start a strategy firm in my second year of business school at the age of 26. And somehow we landed this client, Audi. Oh my God, what a fucking disaster the the kind of cultural or language barrier we were trying to

come up with a brand identity and we came up with something it all comes down to a series of core associations brand elaboration brand as person brand as product so was it the old you know was it the old audi would it be the audi a6 like what would be the tt what would be kind of the ultimate product brand as person and probably someone who's German, a little bit more feminine brand is brand a symbol that would be the four rings, I guess. By the way, at this conference, the Audi series, it is a fucking Audi orgasm. Jesus Christ. Those cars are nice in there everywhere. They told me 131 Audis for the conference. I just want to go places in these places. It does make me want to buy an Audi. By the way, true story. When I worked for Audi, I bought an A8. Very nice car, but it didn't have

that like, oh my God, there's a really good chance I'm going to have like random oral sex from some stranger. It just didn't exude that. And when you're my age, you want that one in a billion chance that's going to happen. And I think it's much more likely to happen in a Mercedes or a BMW. So anyways, only had one Audi, an Audi A8. Anyways, I used to work for Audi, and I would get on a plane from San Francisco to Munich and then drive to fucking Ingolstadt, which is, Ingolstadt is not the nicest place in Germany. It's basically Audi and the Seven Dwarfs. There's nothing going on there except for Audi.

And we came up with a brand identity. You're supposed to narrow it down to kind of a very, the core identity, which is supposed to be the statement that summarizes everything about the brand. And we came up with the modern art of motion. And I just thought that was brilliant. The modern art of motion, because Audi needs to differentiate from BMW, Mercedes. I just thought that was brilliant. And they were like, they couldn't even understand what we were talking about. I guess modern and art don't translate well to German. It was just a nightmare. And I was constantly on planes back and forth from Ingolstadt to San Francisco. So I'm going to bridge this to just a quick lesson about the services industry. That's being in consulting or

investment banking. I built most of my wealth, or at least my initial capital base, such that I could have an army deployed at night and fight for me and my family in my wealth, or at least my initial capital base, such that I could have an army deployed at night and fight for me and my family in my sleep, which is what everyone in their 20s and 30s needs to do. You need to figure out a way to spend less than you make and deploy a capital army that's out there taking no hostages for you while you sleep. Anyways, the way I did that was I started a series of strategies in business intelligence firms, which is Latin for a services company. And the services industry is really a fantastic training.

If you like school, if you like academia, the services business is really, especially consulting. Consulting is like going back or extending or just keep going to business school, except instead of trying to get A's, you're trying to get clients. So let me break it down. What are the great things about a service industry?

Fantastic way to become a decathlete. You have to present well, you have to manage people, you have to manage clients, you have to understand analytics, you have to be able to present well. It really is a great way to sort of test all of your skills and become an all-around athlete. It's a fantastic industry for people who aren't entirely sure what industry they want to be. Most people bounce out of consulting. Fewer people bounce out of banking because it goes deep around finance. But consulting is sort of for athletes who aren't sure what sport they want to play.

Also, it's a great way to get wealthy. You don't get rich, you get wealthy because it requires no capital. I didn't have the money or the contacts or just, I just didn't have the skills to go raise outside capital. And you didn't need to with a consulting firm. You just needed clients.

And I started calling on alumni of the Haas School of Business, specifically the CEOs of Levi's, Dreyer's, and William Sonoma, who are all Haas grads, and said, hey, I've started a consulting firm. Can you get me a meeting? And they all did. They were all really wonderful to me. And those were my first three clients, which kind of catapulted the business. I ended up selling it for about $28 million off a base of $10 million seven years later. Was that seven years or 10 years? I can't remember.

So 2.8 times revenues, which is a lot of money at the time for me and my partner, although about half of it was owned by employees, something like that. Anyways, what is the downside of a services company? The downside is it's incredibly taxing on your personal life and your relationships. Because when they call you and say, hey, the board is meeting here in Ingolstadt tomorrow. Can you be in Ingolstadt tomorrow? The answer is always yes. You're constantly on the road.

I found it also draining because I'm an introvert. And to be a really good CEO of a consulting firm, you have to be a bit of an extrovert. You have to get energy from people. And the majority of our biggest clients were largely because I established these sort of father-son-like relationships with either the CMO or the CEO, which was nice. I was in my kind of early 30s. I needed mentorship, but I found it exhausting. At one point, I had like a 10 or 12 handicap, which is decent in golf because I was playing golf every fucking weekend. I was taking golf vacations with clients for God's sakes. When I sold profit, I have no joke. I sold profit in

2000, 2002. I have played maybe three rounds of golf since then. I want nothing to do with golf. I want, it literally, it was, it was entirely about the services industry and about relationships. So if you're thinking about the services business, absolutely a great way to test your skills and develop them. Absolutely great for someone who enjoys school. There you go, the services industry. Anyways, moving on to a quick news hit. Equinox is launching a $40,000 annual membership focused on broader health and longevity. Wow. This is how fucking insecure I am. I immediately read that and I'm like, oh, I want to do that. That means it must be for douchebags, for people trying to signal their wealth. And I love the Equinox brand,

so I immediately think, okay, okay, that's for me. I'd like to live long. I don't want to live, actually, that's not true. I don't want to live longer. I want to live better. Anyways, Equinox, can you do that for me? I'll pay you $41,000. They're partnering with Function Health, a lab testing startup, and calling the new membership Optimize. Well, the platform will allow members to analyze and track biomarkers, including organ health, hormones, and metabolic levels. Tests will be offered twice a year. Members of this premium product will also have limited access to massage therapy, a personal trainer, a nutritionist, and a sleep coach. The total hours you can commit to these services is around 16 per month. That's interesting. This is popping up everywhere,

kind of these concierge, if you will, ultra lifestyle health clinics. I actually have a quote-unquote concierge doctor in the UK, and she's wonderful, and I like it because I can text her, call her, she calls me back. And it's expensive, but it's not unreasonable. And I find the healthcare system in the system per capita, which says to me that it's kind of, I don't want to say it's working, but I don't see a big difference between, I mean, at the end of the day, no one's happy with their health care. Four out of five Americans are not happy with their health care, except we pay double for ours. Anyways, I use one of those concierge services where she'll actually come over. I think it costs me about 10 or 15,000 pounds a year, which is a lot of money. I couldn't have afforded that until recently, but it's worth it for me. When I have something, I want a prescription right away. I want to figure it out as quickly as possible. So back to Equinox and Optimize. Equinox isn't the first to dabble in this market. Lifetime has a longevity clinic at their Minneapolis location,

and last year, Exponential Fitness, the franchise behind Pure Bar, Club Pilates, and Rumble, acquired Lindora Clinics, a company that specializes in weight loss and nutrition. Brian Johnson, who I'm speaking to at OMR today, I'm actually interviewing, spends around $2 million a year on efforts to reduce and reverse his own aging. I guess he's kind of an eccentric, wealthy person who's spending literally $2 million a year to try and stay young. Wouldn't it be funny if he got hit by a bus on the way to the conference tonight? I know that's not fair. That's not nice. But I'd still be kind of, why does that make me happy? Why does that make me happy? A really rich guy who's spending $2 million a year to try and stay young just gets mowed down on the Farfan Nugent line here in Hamburg. Not that I'm wishing that happens. I don't know, Brian. I'm sure he's a lovely guy. In terms of Equinox, so are they poised to succeed here?

The firm recently received $1.8 billion of private capital to refinance the $1.2 billion of maturing debt and fuel its growth strategy. The FT reported that Equinox's revenues increased 27% last year, and it's expanding its footprint by about 20%, which is 25 new clubs. It's a really interesting brand. They've done a great job with the brand. I think some of that, my guess is some of that 27% is that they're lapping shitty numbers which is 25 new clubs. It's a really interesting brand. They've done a great job with the brand. I think some of that,

my guess is some of that 27% is that they're lapping shitty numbers from the year before, which was probably COVID. I go to the Eclinox in Soho. All I can say is the hottest gay men in the world. The hottest gay men in the world. Seriously, I'll be working out

and I'll think, Jesus Christ, is that guy literally the same species as me? Look at him. I find myself staring at these beautiful men. I don't know where I was going with that. I don't know where I was going. Anyways, I love what they do. I love the vibe. They took a brand and they made sort of the high-end scalable. What are they? They're not the Lexus. They're not the Mercedes. Let's not even call them the Tesla. They're the Mercedes, I would say. Are they the Mercedes? I don't know. I'm trying to think of the right analogy here for that brand. They also bought SoulCycle. CEO's a neat guy. I interviewed him, I think, for this

podcast, or I just had to call them. I can't remember. Anyways, they've done a great job. They also have the Equinox Hotel. So they're doing all sorts of brand extensions. It's just a super interesting brand. There's only two of them, by the way, or maybe three of them in London. For some reason, high-end gyms have not taken off in the UK. So the question is, what is it about Equinox that is defensible? What do we like about it? One, the wonderful thing about gyms is

it's got our favorite thing. It's got recurring revenue. More people are going to be working out, especially with GLP-1 drugs. I think the first thing that happens when people lose weight is they feel better about themselves and they get into working out.

It's got a global brand. It strikes me that it's an extendable brand. I'll be curious to see if they open up more hotels. The longevity stuff, you know, I just don't know. I don't know. 40,000 bucks, that's a pretty serious price point. I mean, that's kind of like, I better feel pretty fucking young pretty fast for 40K. I mean, I can, for 40K, I can buy the drugs and the people that surround me for 40K that will make me feel, you know, 35 again. So that's a big lift. But Equinox is an outstanding brand. Jesus Christ, 1.8 billion.

I need to see the numbers. I need to see the numbers. But health and longevity is a place that everybody is investing in because we have this massive amount of capital that continues to flow to people in their 50s and 60s. And then when they realize, specifically a couple of their friends die, that they're not going to live forever, they start thinking about longevity and feeling better. So I think I would probably go long on Equinox. I don't even know what the

valuation is. I wonder if it's going to go public. I think it's owned by the related group, which is real estate companies. Anyways, Equinox, optimize my health. I'll pay you 39K to feel 38 again. We'll be right back for our conversation with Rex Chapman. Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Rex Chapman, a former NBA player and co-author of his memoir, It's Hard for Me to Live With Me. Rex, where does this podcast find you? I'm in Minneapolis. Minneapolis for the playoffs? For the playoffs, yep. That's nice. So let's bust right into it. We loved your memoir, It's Hard for Me to Live With Me.

Can you tell us more about what led you to writing this and what you learned about yourself throughout the process? You've written books. I'm not a writer. Seth Davis, a terrific writer, helped me with this. He called me a few years ago, actually four years ago. And I think he had seen me on a news spot with our friend, Stephanie Rule. And, um, you know, I was just coming out of, you know, getting out of rehab for painkillers and had kind of, uh, gone off the rails a bit. And Seth felt like, you know, maybe some of the things that I could tell and share might help some other people. And, you know, we started in on it and it was a, oh man, it was a horrible process. I hated it, Scott. You know, there would be times where we

would talk every day and then I just couldn't talk about this stuff for, you know, a week or two. I'd have to take a break. So Seth hung in there with me and it was kind of hard to talk about, but I think I'm getting to the point where it's a bit cathartic. It's been a process, but yeah, definitely a painful kind of experience. So just for some context, I think most people know you, but for those of our listeners that don't, Rex has struggled with addiction and obviously had a big impact in Kentucky basketball and the NBA, but I think you're sort of having a bigger impact now. And I thought of you, seriously, Rex, I went on this podcast, a guy named Rich Roll. Do you know Rich? Yes, I know of him. And he was so moved by the community of recovery that he kind of, I wouldn't say shaped his life around it, but it's really sort of informed his life view.

And I think that you're one of those people that is being very raw about it and helps people or people can look at you and they can empathize. Tell us about, and I apologize, I'm going at you and they can empathize. Tell us about, and I apologize, I'm going to go to a pretty dark place here, but one of the things he said was, so many people tried to intervene and it wasn't until I was ready that any of them could have any impact or help me. Did you have a similar experience? And if so, what was that moment and what catalyzed sort of where you could register, recognize that you were ready to get help? Scott, since I was little, I was a horse racing fan and gambler. And my whole life I did that from the time I would go to the track with my father when I was five or six years old.

And so I could read a racing form probably before I could read in school. And, uh, so I had some issues, uh, but then I had the, the painkiller issue and I had friends and family members telling me about the painkillers that, you know, I was ruining my life um you know that the gambling was ruining my life and i i think i was just so lost and prideful that i had just resigned myself that these pills were going to be part of me for the rest of my life i couldn couldn't stop. It was 14 years from the time I finished playing until the time I went to rehab for the third time. I was just broken at that point, Scott, and broke. And it's easy not to gamble when you don't have any money. So, you know, I went to rehab and there was a moment in rehab, the final time in 2014, where my, it was family day and my kids came in. And, you know, this is the first time really in 14 years that I've felt anything. I, all my emotions had been numbed by pain medicine and they showed up and I was just a crying mess.

And, but I promised them, you know, I was going to do my best to stay off these drugs and that I was going to be different. And they all, you know, they were, they ranged anywhere from 10 to 20 at the time. And they were sitting there and my oldest daughter, who was probably 18, I said, I'm going to do my best to stay off these drugs. And she said, that's great. What about the gambling? And it was something in that, I wanted, my first instinct was, hey, look at what I'm doing here. I'm really trying. And I looked at my therapist and she nodded at me like, and I, in that moment, I had to, you know, really admit, no, man, you have a gambling problem also. And you have to attack, you have to attack that. It's interesting to relax. I don't, I know you, I don't know you well,

and I knew you were addicted to painkillers, but I didn't know about the gambling. And my mom, who was a docent at a casino during her retirement years, the Bellagio, she used to come home and tell me statistics about the hospitality industry and gaming. And the stat she told me that always blew me away is that the addiction with the highest suicide rate

is gambling. Because when you're addicted to painkillers, your family notices. When you're an alcoholic, people intervene, they notice. They may not be able to help. But you can get in so far over your head and no one knows. Was your addiction to painkillers in a weird way? Did that help surface another addiction before it got too out of control? Oh, man. You know, I think I just, my whole life, I probably just traded one addiction for another going back. Because I didn't drink. I didn't drink and I didn't smoke. I felt like, I think I knew deep down that, you know, I have a lot of that in my family. And I felt like if both sides, my father's side gambled, my mother's side, you know, a lot of mental illness, probably both sides was mental illness, but alcohol and drugs and whatnot. So I think I was always just very scared that I would like that. And I, I stayed away from it. And I think therefore I kind of justified

going to the track. I'm not hurting anybody, but myself, you know, I'm going to the track or I'm going to be, I might not go to the track for months, but I'm playing golf every day for nine hours when I should be spending some of that time at home, you know, chasing girls. I would just trade one, you know, distraction for another to keep, you know, probably to keep me from thinking about all the shit that was going on in my life. And the hardest part for me, Scott, really and truly over the past eight or nine years hasn't been staying off the medicine it it's been sitting learning to sit in my bad feelings and not run not get a pain pill or run to the track and spend seven hours there in a racing form thinking of nothing else that has been something i didn't have any coping skills for

anything i was going through my whole life until really i entered rehab for the last time at age 45 or six and this is a i don't know an odd obtuse question so i apologize in advance if it comes out unfeeling or incorrectly. I look at you now, you're a big, handsome guy that's probably making really good money covering sports. Your family seems to, and I don't know this, but I'm going to assume they've forgiven you and they just want you to be happy. You look like you're really healthy. I mean, you're kind of like, you're the guy that most of us want to be, Rex, right here and now. Well, anyways, I don't know what the reality is, but that's perception.

Yeah, thank you. And when you're sitting there and you're thinking, like, you got to fight back these bad feelings that you kind of naturally have an inclination to medicate with whatever. What are those bad feelings? Is it depression that you did as chemical, just bad thoughts? Is it guilt over what happened? What are those, if you're comfortable sharing, what are those bad feelings? imagine worst case scenarios. I always kind of always felt like the sky is falling. And for no reason, I learned that that's anxiety. And I have dealt with it my whole life. I purposely made myself throw up before every game I played until I was 20, probably 23 years old. Grade school, high school, college, NBA, 82 games a year in the NBA. So I couldn't continue that. But, um, I did that. It was anxiety. The second I threw up, I felt great. Um, my dad did it. I watched him do it. Phil Russell used to do it, didn't he? Didn't a lot of famous players do it? Athletes are weird, but again, that's not super healthy. And, you know, so anxiety, I did, you know, looking back on late high school, especially college, depression, I was sleeping a lot.

Again, I just thought, well, I'm getting my rest. I'm not out partying. No, I was sleeping. I was depressed and something I couldn't talk to people about or didn hot. Like I just can't sit still. ADD of course. And you know, I'm a bit dyslexic. So, and stuff that I never knew stuff that like that, that, you know, kind of soured me on school. I kind of thought, well, look, why, why can everybody in this room read that as fast as, as one another? I can't read that as fast. I can comprehend it, but I can't read it. Teleprompter, same way. So I dealt with a lot of insecurity and deal with a lot of insecurity, but I, yeah, I think that, you know, just, I'm a, I'm a mess in some ways. And when you said, we look at you as the guy, man, Scott, that's how I look at you. That's how I look at the guy standing down on the street corner. I'm like, man, I bet he's how I look at you. That's how I look at the guy standing down on the street corner.

I'm like, man, I bet he's got it all together. You know, and of course, that's not true. Not everybody doesn't have it together. We're all just walking around with these thoughts in our heads. And, you know, it's better if we can all get along and listen to one another. And if there was one or two, we all have our, people who have not struggled with addiction, we all have our perception, our mythology around what recovery looks like. What was the most surprising things about what worked or what didn't work? Like,

if you were to say, these are the two things, surprises to the upside or the downside that people don't understand about recovery and what it means to come out the other end sober. Man, I honestly think at this point that being in therapy, and I find myself talking about it. You know, people will ask me a question

and it might not have anything to do with rehab or recovery, but I'll draw on an experience that I had in rehab, a story that somebody will tell them that someone told. And before I know it, I'm in a conversation with somebody else and they're telling me something about themselves being vulnerable. And it's weird, but it's pretty cool because guys like you and I didn't used to dare talk like this. We might, we might, if we were really good friends, talk about it in private, but even then you wouldn't really, you know, kind of get to the bottom of whatever it is you're dealing with. therapist part for me has been huge absolutely huge um you know i didn't i didn't trust anybody i didn't trust people well enough to tell complete

strangers what was going on with me and when i look back man i was just so silly for doing that, just so prideful. And like you said, some of this stuff is guilt. Some of it is shame for things that I've done, things that I've said, things that I've thought. But the guilt and shame part of doing this publicly to my kids and my ex-wife and my mom and dad, my family and friends, my friends' children who idolized me or idolized me. I thought at that point I was so broken, but I remember thinking, I've got to try to regain some of this in my life and try to do better and regain the trust of all these people I've let down. I don't know an elegant way to pivot to the future of sports before I try and do it. You've been in, you've kind of seen sports from a lot of different angles, right? Ranging from a high school athlete to an NBA star to someone who's advising NBA teams, commentating

on them. I'm curious, when you look at the ecosystem of sports, what do you see in terms of big trends or how things have changed? Or is there anything that people aren't seeing? It's such an enormous industry right now. It has so much speculation and people talking about it so much. But what do you see that's changing about the world of sport? You know, when we were growing up, it seemed like, you know, the media was pretty fair with the players. You talked about their wins and losses and the streaks that they were on, and he's playing well and he's not playing well. And he's hurt and he's not hurt.

It's almost like sports media has become like the worst parts of Twitter. You mean the sewage system of the sewage system, it's that bad? Yeah, you have to have a hot take about everything. And you can't. There's no way to have a hot take about everything and you can't, there's no way to have a hot take about everything. You have to agree on some things. Some things are obvious when you watch a game, but anymore, you've got one person sitting there, I'll take this side, you take the other side and it's ridiculous. And I, I think it's, you know, athletes are pretty weird anyway, but, uh, I think what we're seeing is, you know, you see a lot more athletes that are terrified of the media that don't want to talk to the media that want to go on their boys podcast or their own podcast and get

their message out, which to be honest, if I could have done that way back when, I would have probably done. I just feel like, and with sports, now we have the gambling, Scott, and I'm not gonna sit up here, and I was not a sports gambler. I've never bet on a game, a team sport in my life. I was strictly Thoroughbreds and blackjack and craps and all that stuff.

It's super dangerous. I'm so glad to hear you say that. It's the fastest growing industry outside of AI right now. Here's what I'll tell you. I blew through between divorce, but mostly gambling. Blew through some $40 million, uh, in my career. Thoroughbreds. No, you can't, you're just betting against the pool in the pool and at the racetrack, you can only win or lose so much at a time. And I, you know, it took me till I was 45 to blow through 25 years worth of earnings.

If I would have had an app on my phone, because for years I would have to have, I lived in Kentucky, New York Racing Association had a wagering account, a phone wagering account in the 90s. I got a New York Racing Association account. I would call. I would have to talk to a person. Hey, give me $200 to win on the six at Aqueduct. I'd have to do that. It was time consuming. If you ran out of money, you had to send a cashier's check, snail mail, all that stuff. If I had an app on my phone at that time where I make a bet and oh, I'm out of money and I can just go boop, boop, here you go, put in another $2,500.

I can't tell you how dangerous that is. And for addicts, especially gambling addicts, you can't stop. And you'll bet on anything at some point where it's just about the action. And the most confounding thing for me when I look back is what was I doing? Like I would take 15 grand to the track and if I won some, let's say I won 15 grand or 30 grand, that wasn't going to change my life. It wasn't. I was making whatever, playing basketball. But if I do that long enough, it will change my life for the worst because I'm going to lose.

You know, I would, you lose more, more, more days than you win. And once you start chasing the money, it's a wrap. And that's what I would do you know you get down you start play all these games in your head with the math and you start chasing money and you leave the track and you're cussing at yourself and you're throwing things and all that and guess what you got more races the next day let's go back and get them that's that's the mind of an addict, a gambling addict, I think. Yeah, it's just, I just can't. What you say about gambling and friction, my roommate, my junior in college at UCLA was a gambling addict. And this really shady guy would show up once a week and take like a hundred bucks from him. And I was clear, oh, that's the bookie. It was so shady.

It was so weird that I was never tempted to gamble. But I've got Kevin Hart and Charles Barkley endorsing something. And then it's on my phone. And for whatever reason, I think I have insight into Arsenal playing Bayern Munich because I understand football better than most people. And why not make the game a little bit more fun, get that dope a hit? And if it was on, I agree with you so much. And I think you'd be such a wonderful spokesperson here. I think online gaming is a fucking train wreck for young men. Yeah, it's, and imagine, Scott, you know, we went to college and you're going, I didn't drink in college, but all my friends did, you know, who I grew up with, they drank, they partied, they did all that stuff. Imagine going to college, and I didn't drink in college, but all my friends did, who I grew up with. They drank, they partied, they did all that stuff.

Imagine going to college now. I remember fraternity brothers playing cards and gambling with cards. I can't imagine the young people out there right now. You're with your boys, and you're drinking, and you're smoking, and you're having fun. You're a young college kid. Let's bet on the game. Yeah. Let's bet on the game. Yeah, let's bet on the game. It wasn't an option, you know, when we were growing up.

Not legally, anyway. And now it's legal. You talked about Charles. Well, all of the, you know, and I go way back with Charles. We were longtime golf buddies. Seems like a good guy. I want to be clear. Strikes me as a good guy. I want to be clear. Strikes me as a good guy. The league, the leagues and the players.

We used to be warned at the beginning of the year. You'd have the same, same group go around to 30 NBA teams and tell them you don't. They put up on the wall behind you pictures. This guy's in Miami. This guy's in New York. This guy's in chicago do not associate with these people these are known gamblers they're known bookies you know don't associate with them and so it was a no-no everybody knew gambling sports betting uh hell you know they would what are you guys doing knowing the line why would you know the line like it was a no-no and now because gambling money is figured into the collective

bargaining agreement and the owners get a cut and the players get a cut and the salaries have exploded, it kind of goes hand in hand. We've already seen a couple of instances. Shohei Ohtani and his translator in baseball who gambled away. Shohei didn't apparently, but his translator stole and gambled away millions of dollars and bet with them. We just saw a guy named Jonte Porter in the NBA, a marginal NBA player who was betting on himself, betting on his team to lose, and now has been banned for life from the NBA for gambling. And this is an NBA player. Imagine, Scott, imagine small college players who can gamble on their own games under the radar or think that they can gamble on their own games under the radar that aren't making any money. It's a time bomb, in my opinion.

We'll be right back. I thought of you when I was thinking about college athletes and pay. I'm curious to get your view on whether or not college athletes should be compensated. Yes, they should. Now, I'm not saying it's easy, but yeah. I mentioned in my book that I was paid under the table, like so many top players in college. Bought me a car and all of this stuff was illegal way back when. They've established the NIL now, which is name, image, and likeness, where you can go and make money off of your name, image, and likeness. When I went to the University of Kentucky in 1986, I signed away my name, image, and

likeness to the university, and they've had that until just recently. At O'Bannon. I went to school at the O'Bannon brothers and he changed that, right? He changed everything for us. They did. So, yes, but it's not an easy answer. These are young people. They're going to have to pay taxes,

but that's a good thing. Letting these, teaching these kids. I got into the NBA and got my first check. Gross 50,000, net 33. I turned to my teammates. I was 19, 20 years old and said, I've heard about tax returns. When do we get this back? And they said, what?

And I said, yeah, when do we get this money back? I said, you can't be this dumb. We don't get that money back. I didn't know, but now, you know, kids are making money and you have to pay taxes on it in college. You better be taking a finance class or you, but the school better be teaching you a little bit of financial literacy. I didn't have any. Most, most players come from nothing. Most pro players come from nothing and have no fiscal responsibility at all. And hopefully now with NIL coming along, some adults will

make sure that these players just don't go willy-nilly through life knowing nothing about the money they're making. Say in the eighth grade, you didn't hit a growth spurt and you ended up being four or five inches shorter. And just, you could be on the JV team in high school, maybe varsity for a couple of years, but absolutely no college prospects. And you knew early that sports weren't going to be an option for you. Do you think your struggles with addiction would have been the same, better or worse? I think probably worse. Yeah. Yeah. Scott, I didn't have any ambition other than that. I didn't have any ambition other than playing sports. doing, you know, it would be something like coaching basketball, you know, be something in, you know, where I grew up in Owensboro, Kentucky, you played sports and you went to school and when school for most of my buddies, you know, they played just as much and were

worked just as hard as I did growing up, you know, when school, when our high school season ended, their basketball careers ended for the most of them. And those guys struggled, you know, they went to college and now they're not, you know, they've been playing basketball with me every day. What do I do now? And if I would have been in that same position with them, oh my God, I can only imagine I would have run off the rails because I would have been, I'm sure at 18 years old, not knowing how to spend my time. I've been doing this forever. I'm sure I would have, I'm not sure, but I can definitely see myself partying and being the guy that can't stop partying. So I think that always was kind of in the back of my mind that, you know, look, man, you need to stay away from this or

you'll be a big train wreck. And it happened anyway, but at least I was able to get my career in there before that took over. And what, you have kids, what advice would you give to parents around kids in sports and competitive sports? You know, another really good question. My dad left me alone and maybe to the point of too much. I never was, my dad coached and I was on, I would watch his practices all the time. And if I wanted to know something, he would tell me. But he didn't push me. And I liked that. Because I saw so many other parents just involved in their kids' stuff. And I could tell that I was better, maybe considerably better.

And I see these kids working and going, their parents are getting pissed off at them because they don't want to go to the gym or they're not doing this well enough or that well enough. And I saw so many kids flame out by the time they were in ninth grade, 10th grade, because it was no fun anymore because their parents made it no fun. And I think the one thing that I've been able to see is that, you know, kids are going to come across this at their own pace. You know, if you push a kid into something, or if you tell a kid they can't do something, well, they're going to want to do that. And, you know, you can't, you just can't live your life, you know, through your kids and their sports

and what they do. You can be there for them, root them on, but being obsessed with them becoming a Division I athlete or a pro athlete, it's really hard to do. The odds are that somehow, someway, they're not going to make it there. I think you just have to be really, really careful pushing your kids into sports. I got to ask you, or I got to imagine that everyone from the Phoenix Suns to the league itself, when they think, who do we want to come speak to the rookie class? I got to think you're on everyone's short list. So I'm going to assume that's the case, but they don't give you much time. They say, Rex, we got to get back to practice. You got 10, you know, what are the cliff notes on what you tell? I mean, I feel like the thing that was struck me about these athletes, I always felt like they're children. I was a child when I was that age. I was a child. I

couldn't have handled the media, the pressure, the money, the temptations, the maturity when you don't get started. I mean, I just wouldn't, it wasn't enough of a man to deal with what these boys have to deal with. What, if any, or what are the key points of advice you give to these young men as they're trying to, you know, start a career in professional sports? Yeah, you know, Scott, you have these meetings, drug meetings, gambling meetings, um, uh, with, with the league, you know, they'll come in, they'll talk to every team throughout the year. And, uh, I was the guy that was sitting in those meetings and those meetings are mandatory. Like you have to be there, but they only get like 45 minutes or an hour.

And I was the one sitting over in the corner, looking at my watch, pointing to our GM or whoever it is going, they got five more minutes and I'm out of here. And like going to walk out. Cause I got to go play golf. Y'all don't, you know,

you've taken up enough of my time, sat there and didn't, didn't listen to much of anything that was said. Don't be that guy is what I tell them is, you know, every player, every athlete is one step away, one wrong step away from never playing again ever. And if you haven't prepared your life or prepared enough for what life's going to be like once you finish playing, you're going to struggle because you're going to fill that void with something that's probably not constructive. And you also have to think about this, Scott. And I know you talk about dopamine and endorphins earlier. I grew up playing basketball from age five.

And so by age 15, I've made enough game winners to last a lifetime for most people. And when you do that in practice, in games, and you start doing it in front of fans, you don't realize it, but that's a rush. There's a real rush that goes along with it. And you kind of, it kind of becomes old hat after a while, but then you do it in high school and college and in the NBA, and it becomes kind of something you do and you do it every single day. Well, when that's over, it's really over. You're never going to, that's a rush. You're never getting back. How are you going to fill it? For me, I filled it with painkillers and I filled

it with going to the track and getting a horse to get up in the final jumps to get that rush. You know, it's, uh, unless you're prepared for the end of your career. And my good buddy, John Lucas, always says, you know, who struggled with addiction forever and was the number one pick in the draft in like 1972. He said every athlete dies twice at the end of their careers and at the end of life. And you have to be prepared for that. And I certainly was not prepared for that. And advice, not to NBA players, but advice to other dads that have struggled with their own stuff. Man, your kids are always watching.

They're always watching. And I'll tell this one little story that's in the book. But my son was about 10 years old and he was in the car with me and, you know, I would go to the track every day. And so I had bad tickets, losing tickets that I would have everywhere in the car and the cubby hole and whatever. And I had walked into the store. I said, all right, I got to go pay for gas. I'll be right back. Left my son in the car. He's sitting right outside. And I went inside, paid for gas, came back out, put the gas in the car. And right at that time, he was really getting into, you know, math, second, third grade and whatnot. And I came back out in the car and he was so proud of proud of himself he had gone through my bad gambling tickets and realized

that the number uh that i had lost was around thirty thousand dollars for that day or whatever it was and i just remember getting in the car he was so proud that he added all this up he didn't even know what he was doing didn't know those were gambling losses. And I just remember feeling like the worst, the worst father in the world for doing that to my kids, exposing them to that. And then the worst part of it was I couldn't stop. I just couldn't stop. And so, you know, I think I went deeper into a hole. So the kids are always watching just know it even if they're little and at some point you know fast forward eight or nine years and there's my daughter

telling me dad what about the gambling you got a gambling problem they're always watching so be mindful so as someone who is entirely doesn't lacks the credentials nor the domain expertise or even the relationship with you to say this, I'm going to say it anyways. I wish you'd forgive yourself. I just feel so much pain and guilt. And I just got to imagine you're this larger than life character with great skills. You make other people feel good. I got to think your kids and everyone around you just want you to forgive yourself and be happy. Thanks, buddy. I do struggle with it, but, you know, and there are times that I go through, there are times that I'll feel good about, you know, kind of where I am and what I've

done, but then that doubt creeps back in. I think that, I think for me, Scott, it's just, uh, once you've run your life off the rails or once I did anyway, I just go, man, I didn't even know I had that capability. And now that I know I can do that, it scares the shit out of me. It just does. And so I'm cautious. I continue to try to stay, you know, um, with my, you know, on my therapy and, uh, you know, I have friends that have keys to my place in case I want to spend the day sleeping. They can come get me and, you know, go do things. So I've got safeguards in place, but life's hard. You know, it is, life's just hard. It's hard for everyone. And, you know, I'm doing the best I can with it. And I can't tell you, Scott, how much those words mean to me.

They really do. Don't think I'm just saying that. I know that there are people out there pulling for me. I hope that, you know, I do get to a point where, you know, I've accepted, you know, kind of where I am and what I've done and all that, but it's still a process at this point. Rex Chapman is considered by many the greatest basketball player ever produced by the state of Kentucky. In two years at the University of Kentucky, he scored over a thousand points, led the Wildcats to a Sweet 16 appearance, and was nicknamed King Rex. He then spent 12 seasons in the NBA. He currently hosts the Smart List podcast Owned, and his memoir, co-authored with Seth Davis,

It's Hard for Me to Live With Me, is out now. He joins us from his home in Phoenix, Rex. There are two different stories. There's an athlete who's incredible, who inspires people, goes on to live a good, productive life. And then there's an athlete who's incredible, who inspires people, goes on to live a good, productive life. And then there's an athlete who's incredible, inspires people, struggles, has a fall, and then comes back and helps other people

going through the same thing. One of those lives is meaningful. The other is profound. You, my brother, are leading a profound life. You're helping people. I really, I mean this sincerely. I wish you the best, and I hope that you register that you're helping other people. Thanks, Scott. I really can sincerely. I wish you the best, and I hope that you register that you're

helping other people. Thanks, Scott. I really can't thank you enough. Algebra of Happiness. I'm headed to Cannes in about a month for the Cannes Creativity Festival, Cannes Lions. It's my favorite conference in the world. I don't love Cannes. I don't love the conference, but the chocolate and peanut butter of that conference in Cannes, oh, it's the best. I stay at Hotel du Cap, which is just so fucking fabulous. I buy a 32-euro coffee on the deck there, and I watch the world go by, and I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm some, I don't know, some Italian magnet having an affair with Bridget Bardot. And I like that feeling. I like that feeling. And then get this, get this. And a total baller slash douchebag move. I hire a

guy with a Zodiac boat to pick me up from the dock there. And I rolled down in my suit past the pool and all the pool goers. And I get on my Zodiac and I bomb to the Palais and I purposely get off at Meta Beach. They don't let me in there because they don't like me because I think they're mendacious fucks who are ruining the world. Word's gotten out to them that I believe that so I don't get invited to their parties. That's okay. But I purposely roll up in the Zodiac there and I get out on their fucking dock and no one can stop me because they don't have security on the ocean side. The rebel dog. The rebel dog.

That's right. He's a little bitey. He's a little bitey. Anyways, I'm going to Cannes. And Cannes used to be or is this place where they show advertising and they give out awards. And my favorite ad, hands down, of the last year is this ad from all people. It's from the Norwich City Football Club, and it's in honor of World Mental Health Day. And if you can go check out this ad, type in, check in on those around you. Again, check in on those around you. World Mental Health Day from the Norwich City Football Club. And it's this, you know, every once in a while you see a piece of media that just arrests you. I'm actually watching Little Reindeer right now, and there's a scene in it I just can't handle. I had to turn it off. I haven't seen a commercial that fifties and they're football fans. And it shows them at the game. And one is very emotive and happy and giving his friend a hard time all the time. And the other sort of much more introverted, bit morose, bit flat, you know, and then it says,

you need to check in on people. And you're saying, oh no, something bad happened to the morose guy. And the morose guy shows up and he puts down a scarf on the chair of his friend, the one that was a little bit happier. And it says, basically, check in on people. Jesus Christ, I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. So in addition to the virtue signaling here, I'm going to do something and I want to suggest you do the same thing. Especially men. And I am going to do this. I am going to write a list of five people, five friends that I haven't talked

to in a while, and I'm going to call them, and I'm going to ask them two questions. The first question, how are you doing? And then the second question is going to be, really, how are you doing? Really, how are you doing? A lot of men kind of die quiet deaths, and men are now committing suicide at four times the rate, four times the rate of women. And I think a lot of it, I'd like to think some of it could potentially be avoided by just checking in and really asking people how you're doing. And also the most powerful way to get someone to open up is to open up yourself. When they say, how are you? Say, well, I'm doing fine, but you know, we're struggling with my youngest and it's putting a real strain on my marriage. Or I'm worried about money. Or I'm really disappointed. Everyone's making money and investments and I'm not. And

it's really like taking a toll on me mentally. But reach out. Two questions. How are you doing? And then the second one, no, really, how are you doing? This episode was produced by Carolyn Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to The Prophecy Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly market show. Hello, hello, write my name down, write my, say my, say my name out loud.