The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway - Office Hours: Scott’s Thoughts on Job-Hopping, How Much Paternity Leave Should I Take?, and Leaving College to Start a Business

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Scott gives his thoughts on job-hopping, speaking to why you should be loyal to people and not organizations. He then offers advice to a new dad wondering how much paternity leave to take, saying that life is a series of tradeoffs. He wraps up with more advice, to a dad whose son wants to leave university early for his entrepreneurial endeavors.  Music: https://www.davidcuttermusic.com / @dcuttermusic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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NMLS 1617539. Welcome to the PropG Pod's Office Hours. This is the part of the show where we answer questions about business, big tech, entrepreneurship, and whatever else is on your mind. If you'd like to submit a question, please email a voice recording to officehoursatpropgmedia.com. Again, that's officehoursatpropgmedia.com. Again, that's officehoursatprofgmedia.com. First question. Hey, Prof G. Sean from California here. Big fan of your show, and I've learned a lot from you over the years, so thank you. My question is about job hopping. In the three years since I graduated, I've been with three different companies, each time driven by a desire to try something new and better compensation. There's a generational gap in how job hopping is viewed. My parents in the early

60s see it negatively, emphasizing loyalty to companies that foster growth. They believe it could impact future employers' perceptions as well. On the flip side, many colleagues and friends in their early to mid-20s like me view job hopping as an effective way to boost income. Given the transient nature of the job market, loyalty feels less reciprocal. In the tech industry where I work, there's growing acceptance supported by data showing those changing jobs every one to two years often outpace their peers in earnings. I'm interested in your thoughts on how frequent job changes can be seen, whether as a strategic career move or a potential hindrance, and how individuals can navigate these nuances in shaping their professional trajectory. Is it a strategy that works well initially but loses effectiveness as you climb the career ladder?

Thanks again for your insights, and happy new year. I love this question. Thanks so much, John, from California. So first off, some data. The New York Times reported that in 2022, 22% of workers age 20 and older stayed in their jobs for a year or less. So one in five were there less than a year, the greatest percentage since 2006. A third, 33%, spent two years or less at their jobs. Although people who switched jobs during the pandemic often made more money than those who stayed in the same job, that gap has largely shrunk. According to the Atlanta Fed's wage growth tracker, wages for job switchers rose more than 5.6% over the last year, while those for job stayers rose 5.2. So it's sort of the same. So in sum, first, let's talk about loyalty or what your parents were talking about to an organization. I don't think you should be

loyal to an organization. And I know that sounds strange. Like, I think of myself as being loyal to NYU, but I know that it doesn't make any sense. An organization is a legal entity. It is an inanimate. It is not concerned with the condition of your soul. It is not going to take care of you when you're older. Be loyal to people. I'm loyal to the dean at the Stern School of Business. He's a really nice, good, decent man who's been good to me.

So I am loyal to him. I'm loyal to William Berkeley, who's the chair of the advisory, the president of the advisory. He's just this incredibly generous, thoughtful, super smart guy who's been nice to me and protected me whenever I said something really fucking stupid. And, you know, they could probably boo me out of NYU. Anyways, if your boss has been good to you and you're thinking about leaving, don't hesitate to leave the organization, but give them 60 or 90 days notice such that you don't leave your boss in a difficult place where he's scrambling around and it's hard on him or her, right? Be loyal to people. Now, having said that, having said that, let's just think very Darwinian about your future.

I do not think you want to have three jobs in three years, boss. I think the next job you're in, you need to be in for at least three years, because I can tell you as someone who hires and fires a lot of people, more than a thousand, I would imagine over the last 25 plus years, if you came in and I was interviewing you and I saw you at three jobs in three years, I don't think I'd hire you. Or if I did, and I do this a lot sometimes, I do this a lot sometimes, like that made any fucking sense. I do this frequently. Sometimes I will look at, you know, specifically their job background. And with someone like you, if someone really wanted to hire you, I'd say, okay, I'm going to do the following. I'm going to give this kid his first bonus. And by the way, I'm not giving it to you until you're here 24 months.

And if you push back on me, I would say, well, you're not planning to be here 24 months? Because I would express the concern that I do not want you here for 12 months. You're not going to add a lot of value for at least three months. And then I'm going to have to replace you and go through this bullshit again. So I think a stench is going to start to come off your resume if you don't stick to a place at least two or three years. Having said that, I kind of agree with you. Every two or three years, you switch job.

Every three to five years, I think is probably a better way to go. If you look at CEOs, they have one thing in common. They quit. What do I mean by that? They change jobs a lot. The people we know that are in the news every day have been with Disney or Meta or wherever, Microsoft their whole careers, but the majority of senior level executives have been very good at knowing when to leave.

Now, why does it pay to be a job switcher? Because you are more attractive to strangers. You can't help as a boss, but perceive people under you through the lens from which they came into the organization. Now, typically what happens is a lot of times, and I can tell you this from experience on boards, is we're very drawn to outside candidates because they can convince us they're perfect because over a series of five, one or two hour interviews, they can manage their shit really tightly and they can come across as perfect.

And what you find out is no one's perfect. And the four or five people who were the SVPs or the CFO or the CEO who are eligible to be the CEO were just as good and oftentimes better. You're more drawn to strangers. I think it goes back to mating. We want to go outside the kind of local market and we're drawn to strangers because it's important that we mix the gene pool. Anyway, it's probably more information than you wanted. So what I would suggest, next job, you got to stick at least two years, if not three years, in my view, or you're going to start to just look like a job hopper and it's going to shut off a lot of opportunities to you. If you're not going to leave every three to five years, at a minimum, you want to do a market check

every three to five years. But boss, I hate to tell you, you need to stick somewhere for a couple of years. Thanks for the question. Question number two. Hey, Profty, this is Marty. I'm in Los Angeles and my wife and I are expecting our first addition to our family in a few weeks. And I'm at that crunch time where I need to decide how much time I need to take off from work. And I'm kind of stretched being pulled between my work, which is encouraging me to kind of take shorter, shorter half of that, like one, two weeks. And of course, my family, which is saying, hey, stay home, take full advantage of the up to three months or more you can get through your company and through California state laws. So obviously you've got boys,

you understand what this is like, you know, you're the manager working for a corporation, but if you were in my position at 41, how would you weigh this? What would be, would you put together the kitchen cabinet? What questions would you ask yourself? How do I look back with no regrets? I look forward to your answer. Thanks so much. That's a really thoughtful question, Marty. And I appreciate your transparency. And these are the kind of questions

that are the important questions because they deal with life and relationships and trade-offs. And the reality is life is a series of trade-offs. And a lot of this is situational. If you have a trust fund, you know, you have rich parents or you know you're just always

going to be economically secure, then take as much time as you can, even if it pisses off the people at work. If that's not true, and this is probably counter to most of the evidence or most of the advice you're going to get is the following. Oh, haven't you seen the TikTok and how important it is for the dad to bond early and brain development and your kids are only babies once. And it'll be like a bunch of Hallmark Channel advice. And I find that that advice is easy to give when they don't have to pay your bills. And I think your job as a man is to be to take economic responsibility for the household. And sometimes that's being really supportive of your partner who's really good at that money thing and helping. My partner was working at Goldman Sachs and we had two kids under the age of three. And I realized my job was to get home

for bath time because she couldn't be home and to get up with the kids early in the morning because she had to get to the trading floor at Goldman by 6 a.m. But I generally think a good place to start for a man is to assume economic responsibility for the household, first and foremost. And that requires trade-offs and sacrifices. So if you're in a position where you're killing it at work and you see real opportunity there, and quite frankly, you don't have economic security, I'm going to zag when everyone's probably going to zig here, and I'm going to say, err on the side of maintaining that professional momentum. One, my experience was the kid does not miss his dad. I think for the most part, the dad is mostly useless the first six months.

And I wish I had more research here, but it's basically a science experiment. It needs the mom. Dad is there to be supportive of the mom and make sure mom gets enough sleep and is happy and feels secure and feels loved. I don't quite frankly frankly, think you play much of a role, the dad, in the child's life early on. That doesn't mean to say you can't do night feedings. That doesn't mean to say you can't bond with the kid. I used to come home. I used to do yoga with my kid. I would stretch my oldest when he was a baby and he absolutely loved it. And I read somewhere that it was good for them and we'd hang out and I would do a couple of night feedings. So I'm going to say,

look, if you're not economically secure and you have momentum at work, I think it's okay to make the decision to say, you know what? Life is trade-offs. I want to spend a lot of time with my family as they get a little bit older. And in order to do that, I've got to log the hours now. It is situational. You have to make an assessment around how much real value you're going to register professionally by kind of not taking much time off. If they really wouldn't miss you and it's not that important, then yeah, by all means, take the time off. It all comes back to the same thing. You can have it all, but you can't have it all at once. We have one quick break before our final question. Stay with us. Welcome back. Question number three.

Hi, Scott. Qasim here from Vancouver, BC. I have a 19-year-old son who is in second year at Sauter School of Business at the University of British Columbia here in Vancouver. Being an entrepreneur has been his motivation and obsession for a while now, and he currently runs a social media-based marketing business. His business is thriving, and his revenue is quite frankly mind-boggling for someone like me who has always worked for someone else. My son and I had a heart-to-heart conversation recently, and he confessed to me that the only reason he is trotting along at school is because that's what society expects of him, and quite frankly, because he thinks that's what I expect of him, and he is not wrong.

I'm a traditional person who grew up in a different country, different culture, and education was the only gateway to success and, frankly, to economic survival. My son is not directly asking for my permission to leave school and focus solely on his business, but I know deep, he kind of is. He is my only son, and I love him deeply. And I'd like the best for him. So there, Pravji, I'd like to hear your thoughts. And if you were in my situation, what would your advice be to your sons? Kassim from Vancouver, I absolutely love this question. I can hear the emotion in your voice. I've got just emotional hearing the question because I think about the situations I'll face with my sons. And I really do want to be thoughtful and helpful here. So first off,

first off, your son is in college and he started a successful business. That means you have raised an impressive young man. I mean, especially with boys these days. Look, this is what I'd call, it doesn't feel like a good problem, but it speaks to his character and your achievement as a father. Now, this isn't obvious. I mean, I wish he was going into his senior year and I could say, okay, tell him it sucks to be a grown up and to tough it up. And if he gets C, he's fine. If he leaves his second year in college, he's probably not going back. Having said that, having said that, if this kid has the kind of skills to start a company and that company has gotten traction, he's not looking for your permission, but he is obviously looking for your approval. And I think what you want to say to him is just the truth has a nice ring to it.

One, you always know I will love you and that outside of your sister, you're the most important thing in my life, full stop. And if the business doesn't work out, if you get your heart broken, if you feel bad about yourself, there's always one solution, and that is you come home. I think it's great to tell kids that, even when they're grown. Two, I'm from a culture where I would probably finish college and enjoy it because I can always start a business. Having said that, I recognize your achievement here. I recognize how exceptional it is. He has a social company and it's making money. I mean, that is, and you, I think the term you used, would you call it mind-boggling? You said, yeah, mind-boggling. Okay. You know, if he was a freshman, I'd say,

go do the business. Take it as a gap year. Give yourself a year. If it's not going gangbusters, come back to school almost as a freshman or a sophomore. But he's sort of in the middle. This is really a tough one. But I would give him license to make his own decision. I would tell him your bias, but say, I understand this is a tough one and this isn't an obvious call and I support you. And then maybe get some outside counsel, maybe ask a couple of friends or people who are in tech and say, how real is this business? And maybe invite him into those conversations and say, let's talk to some people about really the prospects here.

But I mean, at a minimum, you should at least finish the semester he's in, such that if he decides to return, he can in fact maintain some momentum. But things have changed, Kasim, since you and I were in college. And that is, it's no longer the golden ticket. It's no longer the prerequisite to get into a firm. Him saying that he started a successful social company, even if it doesn't pan out, is a pretty good rap to getting another career. Now, there's several reasons to go to college for the experience, for the marination or the maturation, and then for the certification. And typically, the primary reason professionally people go to college is for the certification. The certification that will be afforded by having started a successful social firm will, quite frankly, probably be as good or maybe even better if he wants to stay in tech than a degree from the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. That's a great school, but what your son has pulled off as the founder of a successful tech firm. There's a market for that as well.

What a great problem. Congratulations to you and your son. I will be in Vancouver. I have been asked to speak at TED because I'm kind of a big deal. I'm actually nervous about it. One, I don't want to go all the way to Vancouver, but I'm excited to see Vancouver. I haven't been there in 20 years. I remember thinking it was one of the most beautiful cities I'd ever been to. Vancouver's sort of, or Ted's sort of a big deal for academics. So I'm happy to be going and doing my thing. I'm nervous about speaking.

There are certain, I speak a lot, but there's certain instances I get nervous in and that feels like something I'm going to get nervous in. But anyways, I'm coming to Vancouver, coming to the great, the great nation of Canada. How do you get 100 drunk Canadian fraternity brothers out of your pool? Guys, would you please get out of the pool? That's good. Thanks for the question. That's all for this episode. Again, if you'd like to submit a question, please email a voice recording to officehours

at propgmedia.com. What great questions.