The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway - Sam Harris on The Democrats’ Far-Left Problem

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

Scott Galloway speaks with neuroscientist and philosopher Sam Harris about why social media rewards political extremism, how our devices have made sustained attention nearly impossible, and why reclaiming control of our minds may be the key to a happier life. They also discuss the erosion of trust in expertise, the dangers of the AI arms race, and why Democrats need to draw a clearer line against the far left. Subscribe to Prof G+ to join our next livestream at profgmedia.com. And if you're not already reading Sam’s work, check out his Substack.  PLUS! Join us for a live Prof G Pod recording at the Odoo Experience conference in San Francisco on Sept 3. You can register for the conference here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Why did Iron Man not get along with Aquaman? He had rust issues. Actually, that's pretty good. Welcome to the 408th episode of the Prop G-Pod. We've got to stop counting. I'm starting to feel really old. What's happening? In today's episode, we're sharing our live conversation with Sam Harris, neuroscientist philosopher, host of the Making Sense podcast, and five-time New York Times best-selling author. If you don't want to miss our next live stream or other content, exquisite to Substack, you can subscribe atprofgemedia.com.

That's propgmedia.com. Also, before we get into it, we're recording a special live episode of the Propgee pod at the Odu Experience Conference in San Francisco on September 3rd. If you'd like to join us, you can register on the conference website. We'll drop a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there. Now, on the show. With that, we hope you enjoy our conversation with Sam Harris.

Welcome to our Profge Plus live stream. Today, we're joined by Sam Harris, neuroscientist, philosopher, host of the Making Sense podcast and five-time New York Times bestselling author, someone I described as a mentor, despite the fact, in a role model, despite the fact that he's younger than me. Sam, welcome to the live stream. Yeah, oh, thanks, Scott. Great to see you.

So I have a whole script here, but I thought of you over the weekend when I saw, and I don't know, well, I'm hoping you saw it or saw clips of it, Dana Bash's interview of RFK Jr. Did you see this? No, I just heard rumors of it. Unfortunately, I have not watched it, but feel free to fill me in.

I can well imagine. He basically at one point said, Dan, you've got to stop listening to and he put air quotes up, the experts. And I thought of you and I thought, okay, the notion of expertise in disavowing and believing that the term expert is somehow means what you're saying is less truthful. And our inability to establish any sort of to coagulate or establish consensus around something resembling science and expertise or that there is a truth, I thought of you. Any thoughts? Well, no one can actually disavow expertise. I mean, we all know that knowledge is a thing. I mean, the difference between knowledge and ignorance is real, and it often matters.

It's just that many people in alternative media and megaculture and in various pockets of weirdness on our information landscape have found other experts. I mean, they're people for whom Alex Jones is an expert, right? So it's not, it's not compatible with sanity to disavow any difference between knowing what's real and not, right? So, you know, and you can see this. And if you watch, you know, Joe Rogan's podcast, I mean, he will follow this RFK line of disavowing the so-called experts a lot. I mean, certainly if you get him talking on COVID or foreign affairs, I mean, many, many topics. but if you put someone in front of him

who doesn't know anything about mixed martial arts and pretends to, watch that, you've never seen a conversation unravel faster, right? I mean, because Joe is an expert on MMA, and he's not going to suffer, you know, fools gladly, you know, in front of his own audience. And yet he just, he doesn't seem to recognize that he's suffering fool after fool

in front of that same audience on other topics. And so an RFK Jr. is certainly one of those fools. Unfortunately, we have, with politics now where, you know, all you have to be is a charismatic fraud and be incapable of feeling shame no matter how many times you're proven wrong. And, you know, our politics will promote you to somewhere near the top of the heap. And what is the underpinnings of this loss of trust in our institutions? Is it social media that rewards novelty, which is Latin for bullshit and conspiracy theory? It's just more

interesting to think of of what has created this level of distrust and erosion in our institutions? I think it's that a lot. I mean, obviously, conspiracy theories and an appetite for them predates social media and even predates the internet.

But I think there's no question that the internet generally and social media specifically has supercharged all of that. I mean, you can find yourself in a algorithmically defined echo chamber

wherein your cherished ideas are never disconfirmed now. And you don't have to meet the weirdos who are producing the best evidence for these fake claims out in the real world anymore. I mean, it used to be that you'd have to go to a conference, you know,

on the topic of, you know, government-suppressed secrets about UFOs, and then meet all the weirdos, all the, you know, the Roswell cultists and Area 51 maniacs, And you'd see, one presumes, I never went to any of these conferences, but one presumes a certain number of people would bounce off the whole project merely by meeting the people who have devoted their lives to these cockamamie ideas. But on the internet, all that gets scrubbed. And the first time I noticed this was, you might remember this, but immediately after 9-11 or some, you know, sometime thereafter, there after, there was a, um,

a very cheap, you know, fake documentary called Loose Change. It was made by, I think, an 18-year-old in his, like the quintessential 18-year-old in his mother's basement. That just was like the first viral product of that moment that, that, you know, engineered the so-called 9-11 truth conspiracy economy. And it was just, you know, it was just a viral video, you know, one of the first. And it took in millions of people. And we got to the point where I think it was true. to say, I think this poll has run somewhere around 2011, that 16% of Americans thought that 9-11 had been an inside job, right? So this is, we're living in that world now, and it's just,

it's just wars. Yeah, I think of, I think of a, I called the jet lag effect, and that is, I travel a lot, and as you get older, jet lag is a thing. And it's because, and I've done some work on it, that jet transportation, you know, traveling across the surface of the atmosphere, a 0.8 times mock, is something we've only been doing, really, the majority of us, or the minority of us have only been doing for a few decades. It's actually a fairly new phenomena. And our brain just hasn't caught up to the notion that you wake up one morning and the sun is in a different part of the sky. And it messes, our brains just haven't caught up to it. And Derek Thompson said something, and he has his own substestown.

now, he had this really interesting take and he said, maybe we're not meant for all of us to broadcast. And that is, our species hasn't caught up to how to process information and ultimately some semblance of a truth or consensus when all of a sudden everyone can broadcast anything. Have you given any thought to the notion of what it means when all of a sudden the media ecosystem. And in some ways, there's some wonderful stuff. A lot of great stuff bubbles to the top without the gatekeepers of MS Now or Fox. I think there's some very positives. But do you think we're, what are your thoughts on maybe our species isn't quite ready or hasn't processed or adapted to the notion that we're all broadcasting information now? Yeah, I think there's something to that. I mean,

it's a little bit like what the close-up in cinema, you know, for the introduction of that first did to us. I mean, that was such a novel stimulus to be sitting in a room with a face that's 25 feet tall or whatever it is. And we, you know, we are living with a similar media manipulation of our minds just in how we're consuming everything in short clips that are algorithmically boosting, you know, for the most part, telegenic people who are really. really, in many cases, are not qualified for anything other than gaming our attention in precisely that way. And we have political candidates who are thriving in that atmosphere and who many people still can't see the downside to. I mean, look at your, one of the cities you live in is being run by Mamdani, a DSA product. You were just on Bill Maher's show on Friday and built that fantastic essay taking down the DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America.

We should be really worried about this organization. And what's amazing is that they're making no effort to conceal how crazy their platform actually is. And yet we are electing people who represent that platform. Again, there's no, there's no Sutterfuge here. I mean, Mamdani claims to be a DSA candidate. But the real issue is that he's very telegenic. He's very good on camera.

He's got a kind of permanent smile plastered to his face. But if you double-click on anything he really cares about and believes or pretends to believe, it's just a raft of sinister bullshit. I mean, it's pure communism on the DSA side. They not only want to get rid of the presidency and the Senate and, and, uh, capitalism and debt and but private property itself right i mean there's just no there's no hedging at all in the dsa platform and they have married themselves to islamism worldwide and and it's become a explicitly anti-semitic platform and momdani and his the other candidates he's signal boosted

are riding atop of all of this with these um you know wink wink knowing smiles which are captivating to people i mean it's just people are And especially the young who aren't, you know, for all their benefits of energy are not really taking much time to discriminate what any of these ideas actually mean and what their consequences would be. So it really is, it is a, you know, obviously an analogous thing happened with Trump and MAGA on the right. But we're seeing frauds and grifters and moral lunatics win because of the media environment we've created for them. Yeah, one of the reasons you're a role model for me is you just are sort of unafraid to like call a spade or say, you know, no, there's no both siding here. And I find that around Mondani, I find myself thinking, well, you know, a lot of creativity and dynamism in the Democratic Party is coming from the DSA. They're very charismatic.

They're bringing energy. I think a lot of this is the bed we've made. My generation has convinced young people to capitalism, is crazy. cronyism. And we haven't done a good job of explaining to them that capitalism, when a redistributes income in the middle class and when it has a strong social safety net actually works better than any other system. So I feel like we've stuck our chin out. And I try to find like reasons to acknowledge why so many people in New York. I mean, Mom Donnie, quite frankly, is popular amongst a lot of Jews in New York. Yeah, like 30 percent. 30 percent voted for

him. And then I just can't help, but look at, okay, he makes a point. There have been, I think, 10 or 11 people convicted by the international criminal court. And the only one it makes a point of arresting is the Jew. There are four Christians. There are three Muslims, and there's one Jew. And he's decided to say, that's the guy I'm going to arrest. And then when white Christian nationalist commits an act of terror, he goes right to the ideology and that this is, you know, Islamophobia, and then when a Jewish person is stabbed by someone screaming Allah Akbar, it's, oh, it's mental illness. It's not the ideology's fault. It does feel, and then the litmus test around, if I'm going to endorse you, is, well, how, I do think there's real legitimacy to the notion of

being not anti-Semitic, maybe even feeling Israel has a right to exist, but being anti-Natniahu. I would put myself in that camp. But it always seems it breaches into, okay, the litmus test is how anti-Israel can you be before, are you willing to call it a genocide, which means you failed vocabulary in your English? However you want to call it, this does feel like it's spilling into just straight out anti-Semitism. Your thoughts? Oh, yeah. Well, we're in the end zone of anti-Semitism.

There's just no question. on the left, also on the right. I'm happy to both sides this, but to both sides this accurately, you have to invoke some fairly ghoulish characters on the right. But when you look at characters like Hassan Piker, and I would say Mamdani and certainly El-Said, who's been signal-boasted by both

and may well become a senator, certainly seems likely at this point. On the right, you have to look at people like Nick Fuentes to, you know, or weirdos like, you know, now Tucker Carlson or Candice Owens and people who are, who are just, you know, lying as freely as they breathe and are explicitly demagogues and anti-Semites and committed to projects that we know are socially toxic. In some sense, in some very perverse way, you know, horseshoe theory is real on this one topic of the Jews, right? I mean, this, you know, horseshoe theory, I think, can be exaggerated. I mean,

this is claim that the far, if you go far enough left and far enough right, you start to meet people whose political convictions become more or less indistinguishable. On the Jews, that is certainly true, right? You know, the Jews run the world secretly in, you know, they're wielding unearned power to the disadvantage of everyone we care about, and all the wars, you know, were created by them and and uh uh you've got um Tucker Carlson and you know even Joe Rogan promoting Holocaust revisionists who say that you know Winston Churchill was the bad guy in World War two and he was misled by Jewish financiers and the Holocaust that didn't quite happen all of that is is getting mainstreamed now and if you go far enough left and far enough right

it's it's you're just meeting fabulous and conspiracists and uh weirdos uh but the The problem for Democrats, especially at this moment, I mean, you know, you and I could talk for three hours about what's wrong with MAGA and what's wrong with Trump and why we want to course correct in 2028. The problem with Democrats is they seem to be getting ready to commit suicide by not clearly drawing the line as our friend Bill Maher did in that last essay on Friday night, where you're pointing to me, leave the anti-Semitism aside, leave the, leave the, marriage to Islamist, you know, theocratic fanaticism aside,

it's all too real and awful, but this is a communist organization, right? It's preaching the downfall of basically everything that has produced wealth and social order in our society for, for, you know, centuries at this point. And communism has failed. Everywhere has been tried and failed in the most ghastly

possible way. And these people are running, as communists, and they're not even hiding it. And the Democrats, mainstream Democrats, the people who are, you know, the short list of people we could name, who might be plausible in 2028, have not figured out how to sister soldier this moment.

I guess with the exception of Rahm Emanuel, however plausible or implausible, you find his candidate, he's the one guy who said, all right, this is clearly bullshit. Yeah, it's, I love the horseshoe. I think it's worth pointing out that whenever the far left and the far right meet on anything, you know it's a really bad fucking idea. Anti-Semitism, anti-vaccination, socialism, isolationism, and they actually do come together on a variety of things. People forget that the anti-vaccination conspiracy theory was started in the far left. Don't put corporate, don't put corporate chemicals into your body. Yeah, there were private schools on the west side of Los Angeles that had lower vaccination rates than any country in sub-Saharan Africa.

I am sympathetic, however, to the argument that, first of all, I never underestimate the Democrats' ability to snatch a few from the jaws of victory. I was feeling so good about these elections, and I thought, oh, shit. Then I saw Chevalia. I'm like, she is about to become the poster child for Republicans. And when Mundani, I don't know if you heard this, he released a list of 950,000. names or addresses that were subject to the tax. I want to be clear that was public information, but when you put it out and imply these people have done something wrong and you already have their tax, you know, you already have their tax filings and you could just tax them. I'm in,

I'm actually in favor of the pieter tax. An absentee, wealthy owner, in my view, should be subsidizing the property taxes of a nurse working at NYU Langone that has to spend 40% of of her of her income on rent. I was a, I'm in favor of the tax. It's going to cost me a lot of money. I get it. I, I, I, I, but to release addresses, it feels like in some implying you've done something wrong. That, oh, I'm going to dox that they have done something wrong and I want, I want everyone to know who they are.

This feels like just straight up doxing to me. Do I have this wrong? Oh, no, it's dangerous. I mean, it's clear. You're having CEOs assassinated at dawn on the streets of Manhattan, right? That's the context. It's, this is, I mean, it's just deeply unethical, you know, but again, these people are fanatics, and they're not hiding their fanaticism. I mean, Mamdani's smile is doing 90% of the work.

He is a fanatic. He's an ideal. The DSA platform is insane. Wealth is evil, right? The accumulation of wealth is evil. Private property is evil, right? So forget about a Pietitera tax. Private property is something they want abolished.

It's just this is not, you know, you can get stoned and not even understand how anyone could entertain these ideas in college. I mean, it's just, this is, it's absolute madness. And, again, not concealed. Everyone should go to the, you know, you should drop the DSA. say website into the show notes, right? So people can just read the platform for themselves. You know, this is analogous to, I mean, it's understandable that some people don't immediately see what's dangerous about doxing or, you know, you and I are semi-public figures who, you know,

occasionally receive death threats. And so, you know, doxing is a real issue. And when Mamdani stands in front of Ken Griffin's building and points it out as the, you know, the signature example of of everything that's wrong in our society at this moment, that a man could own, I think, a $238 million apartment. Whatever you think about wealth inequality, that is dangerous. And the stuff that was happening, this goes back all the way to when, forget the name of the group, but when people were, you probably remember this, there was a group that was hitting some prominent people in the face with pies, right?

They would have like a pie of, you know, whipped cream. And they did it to Bill Gates, I think, and they did it to a few other people. And this, you know, this gets lots of laughs for people who are not thinking about it. But what that does is show how easy it is for anyone to kill someone in public, no matter how much security they have. Right. So it's a mock assassination, right? It's like, I could touch you. Watch this.

And it is from the mayor of New York to be doing this. this to the richest people in New York? I mean, that is, it's, forget about the morality of it. I mean, just, if you just want to safeguard the economic future of the city, why would you do that? Yeah, I think he's turned actually what I think is, is good tax policy into a wanted poster. In what, it's so self-defeating, because I'm a believer that you can't continue to have $7 trillion in expenditures on $5 trillion in receipts. and do we need to raise taxes or cut spending? The answer is yes. But when Mondani has done, it's just made it more difficult to have more progressive tax policies

locally and nationally because the Republicans will frame this as, see, they're not trying to be responsible. They see taxation is persecution. And he's just feeding into their talking points. And what I find generally speaking, and I see this a lot in England, is that people would rather tickle the sensors of other. upper middle class educated voters and reduce the tax base such that they can, in fact, afford the policies that they advocate for. Okay, one of the distinguishing features that I think

is a real positive between America and Europe, I think Europe has basically decided with some of their economic policies that we'd rather be worse off as a whole, but feel more equal. And the U.S. as always said, we're comfortable with a certain level of inequality, as long as we're better off as a whole. Now, having said that, I think that's no longer the true. I think that truth, that compact has been broken, that the massive income inequality is now beginning to come at the cost of the entire economy and the lower middle class households. But this feels oddly, I don't know, oddly like short term, like let's get a sugar high and then reduce the economic growth such that we can't afford to pay for SNAP and the things that we're advocates for. Do you worry, though, I am sympathetic to the argument that progressives that we're spending too much. much time fighting each other and it's taking away our ammunition and our firepower from the

corruption, the weirdness, the anti-science of the left, that as Democrats were very good, and you've said this, I parroted this from you, that, okay, you're my ally, we're in the trenches together, but you're holding the gun wrong, so I'm going to execute you with Don. Do you worry that we're going to spend so much time doing the Republicans' work, being critical of one another, that we're kind of playing into their hands? Well, I worry that framing it that way will cause people to hesitate to disavow the lunatics on the far left. I mean, it's just, we should be able to make very short work of the DSA, right? Just there's no reason to talk to them.

They should not be in the conversation, right? I mean, that's like, if we can't figure that out, it's just there's no, there's no way we're going to win in 2028. I mean, we could be against J.D. Vance. It could be against Rubio. That would even be harder. You know, it could be against Don Jr. And there's no way this country is going to elect communists, right? Or communist adjacent people at the national level.

And, I mean, unfortunately, there are points of contact between, you know, the radicalism of the DSA and far more mainstream figures, or seemingly mainstream figures, people like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I mean, they have both said that it's, in so many words, it's impossible to become a billionaire ethically, right? All billionaires have, in some sense, committed a crime, right? They're guilty of fraud. They're guilty of treating people terribly. You know, try to run that analysis on Taylor Swift, right? I mean, how does that work?

Yeah. And so it's just not, it's the wrong center of gravity for a truly ethical and accurate concern around wealth inequality. I mean, I think you and I are both as concerned about wealth inequality as almost anyone, but I think it's a real issue. I think it's the potentially society-shattering issue once AI gets fully rolled out in all the ways that it seems destined to be. we have to get our arms around wealth inequality,

but to demonize wealth, right, and wealth creation, and to not see that if you're adding enough value to people's lives at scale, it is possible in the current economy to get fabulously wealthy, right, in ways that are not unethical, right? People are just telling you that they love your work

and they're going to give you another $5, and all of a sudden you're a billionaire, that person should not be burned as a witch. And if you go far enough left and you don't have to go too far left, people can't figure that out. I just, I can't help. I feel as if we've made our bed here, though, Sam. I feel as if the people of my generation have been practicing not capitalism,

but cronyism and young people see all of this prosperity, which was supposedly capitalism that they were supposed to participate in. We privatize the gains on the way up. We socialize the losses on the way down to bailouts. We've spent an incremental $700 billion a year on seniors, an incremental $20 billion on children. Young families are struggling, and yet every day they get vomited on their phone,

110 reminders that they're nometically not shaping up or relatively speaking to the other people. And what do you know? Young people are conflating capitalism with cronyism, it feels like we had this coming, and that I'm sympathetic to the fact that this notion of capitalism that people of our generation massively benefited from, they did not. And we haven't outlined a true vision. And the Democrats, too. The Democrats have been overrun. You know, taxes went down during Biden. The last 40 years, unprecedented prosperity, but the average 30-year-old is 24% less wealthy. The average 70-year-old is

I mean, I feel as if we've had this coming, and quite frankly, a lot of this is our own fault because we're clinging to something that just didn't work for them. And now we're trying to dig our way out of a hole that we dug. I share your concern, but I feel like, quite frankly, you know, the chickens have come up to roost. We liked capitalism as long as it was. Let's be honest about where the biggest chickens are. I mean, now we just learned that you can pay, you know, you or anyone, anyone like you could pay

$100,000 a month to Trump to get early access to his truth social post to front run the market, right? I mean, if that isn't inside a train date, I don't know what is, but apparently it's legal or it's legal enough for, you know, Trump to put a cash register on it, at least for this week. I mean, so the level of corruption in Trumpistan is something we have never seen. seen in American history. I mean, it's like, you and I can spend the rest of this hour just listing the things he's done to enrich himself by trading away the policies and institutions and reputation of our country on the world stage. I mean, just the tariff policy that made

everything. And he's made, you know, he and his family have made now billions of dollars in the last 12 months doing that. It's, yes, yes, there's both sides to this story, too. I mean, you know, I think Nancy Pelosi is one of the great stock traders of all time. So that's that, but... I'm 600% versus Buffett at 300% or the SMP at 200%. So the scale, but the scale matters, right? And we have a, we have to keep that in perspective. And we also have to recognize that we, there's, for all the people, for all the

wealthy people being asked to pay more taxes, there's an understandable cynicism you meet first, which is what is the government going to do with the show me the success story where giving the government more money has really worked in the way that you're hoping. And if you look at some of the wealthy, I mean, if you look at California, and you look at the level of mismanagement here, it is easy to be cynical about the just simply dumping more money into the machine of governance because the governance has been so bad. So we need, you know, of course, you know, in our brains, that's not an argument against taxation. That's an argument for good governance, right? We need competent people and good policies, and we need to find bad incentives wherever they exist and root them out. And, yeah, so if the teachers union is stifling our ability to ever fire a teacher so as to improve the quality of the schools, well, then that's something that has to be dealt with, right? And you need Democrats who are willing to go against the teachers' union in that case.

So we've got this system of incentives. And in particular, on the Democratic side, we have this coalitional structure to all our politics that is a real albatross. I mean, it's just not, it makes it very hard to be honest about what's going to work and to cut dead weight. So we have to, you know, we have a lot to sort out. but we are up against the most corrupt and self-dealing bunch of people we have ever seen. And it's, you know, that's, that is worth demonizing and responding to. And we just can't, you know, but it's simply crazy to be demonizing wealth itself, wealth itself or financial success itself in principle as somehow,

and make that a kind of load-bearing plank of, of, of, uh, policy. We'll be right back after a quick break. Support for the show comes from BetterHelp. You've heard me say before how useful talk therapy can be when working through a hard problem, and that BetterHelp has been a great option for a lot of people. But at the end of the day, the best way to know if BetterHelp is a good fit for you is to check it out yourself. More than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally. The consistent feedback from real users makes it easy to see why many people continue to choose the platform. Better Help reports on average live therapy sales. sessions rating of 4.9 out of five based on over 1.7 million client session reviews. Better help therapists have at least three years and a thousand hours of hands-on experience. They also hold all required education, training, and certifications across a range of mental health specialties. And they make it easy to get started. You just have to answer a few questions, then get matched with a therapist based on your needs. And you can switch therapists at any time if it's not the right fit. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if Better Help is.

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I want to talk a little bit about attention because I think of you as someone who focuses a lot on it, and that is where we spend our attention and how it impacts our well-being and our sense of peace. And I take August off and one of the things I try to do is I try to stay off the social media and I try to, I don't know, I call it almost like a 30-day really bad version of meditation and I'm terrible meditation. I've never given it much, much thought. You're obviously a real thought leader around meditation

and have an app, a successful app, helping people embrace it and use it, incorporate it a healthy way into their lives. When I think of meditation, I think of, okay, how do I be attentive to as little as possible as a means of almost like a disposal or a reset? And I might be thinking about it incorrectly. But how do you think about attention, the importance of a rinse cycle, and what's happening now with our attention?

I'm addicted to my phone. And I constantly want to pick it up and check my stocks or tweets or not tweets, threads, or see the latest news or news alerts or who's texted me a story or whatever it is. talk a little bit about the attention economy. What you see is are the threats to our attention. And what meditation, you know, where meditation and an attention reset kind of where the Venn overlap is there. Well, so the first thing to acknowledge is that all we really have is our attention.

You know, that the quality of our life really is a story of what we're paying attention to and what we can notice, right? The quality of our attention and where it is aimed. I mean, that's even true more of, more than of time. I mean, most people think that the time is the one non-renewable resource and, you know, that that's true. You just can't get this hour back. But the quality of the hour is dictated by what you're paying attention to. And we see, we all know what it's like to safeguard our time and then to somehow squander it, right? You set aside an hour to to just have so, you know, quote, quality time with your kids, but then you've fucked it up by being on your phone or,

or saying something petty or, you know, something went, you know, off kilter. And it wasn't what you hoped it would be. And yet you still spent the time to have that mediocre experience. Attention really is the whole story. And you are paying attention to something every moment of the day, right? The moment you wake up, your attention is seized by something, and you go from moment to moment throughout your life until you struggle to fall asleep again each night. And our attention is being, you know, this is an ancient problem.

I mean, so when you talk about meditation, some of the best instruction in meditation came 2,500 years ago from the Buddha in India, 500 BC. and that was obviously a world in which there were no devices, you know, vying for our, you know, in competition with our natural ability to be distracted by the things we want and the things we don't want and the things we're afraid of and the things we regret. And so we're living in a in a much more highly weaponized environment where this, you know, the smartphone in our pocket has canceled the very possibility of boredom, right? It used to be that you could get bored and you could become interested in that fact, right? You're sitting in a waiting room.

You know, the doctor's taking an hour to see you and there's no magazines worth reading and you're just left with your thoughts. And you might have noticed in that situation that your mind is not at rest. It's not at ease. You're actually not comfortable in your own skin. You're looking at your, you're casting about trying to find something worth paying attention to and you're uncomfortable. very few of us have that experience anymore because we can always relieve boredom by watching something or reading something or listening to something. And, you know, in some ways that's a good thing. I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not really just, I'm not advocating boredom in principle as a,

as a good experience. But what it used to allow many of us to discover is that there's something on the other side of boredom, right? And boredom really is an illusion. I mean, boredom really is just lack of attention. I mean, when you go on a, meditation retreat and do nothing but meditate, you're in silence and you're doing nothing but pay attention to your moment-to-moment experience. You're not reading, you're not writing, you're not watching anything, obviously, you're not having conversations with people. You just are noticing sights and sounds and sensations moment by moment and the arising of each subsequent thought. When you just become the witness of your experience in that way, that is

meditation, and the moment you can actually do it, the moment you actually build a little bit of concentration in that direction, you discover that boredom is a total illusion. It was just, boredom is just an inability to pay attention. And if the breath can become, you know, just the feeling of breathing can become absolutely captivating, which it can, you know, given sufficient concentration, then nothing in principle is boring, right? So, but very few of us are ever moved to discover that now, and especially with, you know, like a short form video, you can just endlessly scroll your life away and get this dopaminergic

relief from your general incapacity to just be comfortable in the privacy of your own mind. And meditation really is the antidote to that, you know, and it's, I mean, the place to see it really is like when you wake up in the middle of the night, you know, it's three in the morning and you're now waiting to go back to sleep. I mean, just, just, you know, who is it who wakes up there, right? How racked are you by, by unpleasant life thoughts? And how do you deal with those thoughts? I mean, a thought of, you know, concern about whether you're a good enough spouse or parent or, like, just what sort of rabbit holes can you get into at three or four in the morning? And just how fully have you made your own

mind your friend in those moments? Because I mean, it's really, and or how fully have you failed to do that. I mean, most people's minds are sufficiently out of control that it's really analogous to having some lunatic kicked down the front door of your house and, you know, every morning, the moment you wake up and just follow you from room to room talking to you and you can never get away from this person, right? You're just thinking, thinking, thinking every moment of the day and telling yourself the same stories over and over again. And for some reason, you never get bored. I mean, you can perseverate on the same set of thoughts a hundred times. If you told your best friend those thoughts three times in a row, they would suggest you consult a neurologist because you're repeating yourself.

But you'll repeat yourself to yourself endlessly in the privacy of your mind. And people think this is normal, but it's all too normal in the sense that virtually everyone does it, but it's not normal in the sense of being good or compatible with real happiness. And so meditation is just, in the simplest way to think about it, it is the ability to notice in each moment what you're actually noticing without being distracted by thought. I mean, you're just actually making clear contact with your life, including thoughts. It's not a matter of getting rid of thoughts, but it's a matter of noticing thoughts once they've arisen in your mind. And that's a very rare situation. But what happens for most

people as a thought arises and it sneaks up on us and it just feels like what you are. You know, it's like the voice in your head feels like yourself. Whereas there's a, in reality, there's a tremendous amount of space around it. It's just a piece of language. It's just a bit of imagery. It's a little bit like a dream. It's like a waking daydream. And it's not, it's not yourself, right? It's part of the contents of consciousness. And you can keep dropping back and just noticing that. And that's, where the real relief that is often promised in meditation is to be found. Something you said that was actually very soothing for me was you said,

think about when you wake up from a nightmare. You're convinced that actually happened, right? That you showed up naked, your cost accounting midterm in business school, which is something I have over and over. As one does, yeah. Yeah, or there's someone chasing you or someone you love is in trouble and you just can't seem to figure out a way to help them. And you wake up and you know it was a dream,

but you're just still sweating. Your mind plays tricks on you. That was very helpful for me to realize that when I'm really anxious, okay, this might, maybe there's cause for me to be anxious, but also maybe there's, again, as you said, that person is just haunting me and running around and convincing me of things that aren't as bad as they're telling me they are. I want to outline a scenario and get your advice on how to be everyone, I think the word presence is overuse.

Like be more present. Yeah, I get it. I'd like to be more present. I'm walking with my son to dinner last night. And I'm super excited this summer taking a ton of time just to hang out with my boys. And he's like, who are you talking to? And I'm now become my father where I start making fan motions. You're actually vocalizing your thoughts?

Yeah, I'm role playing out loud. I'm in a conversation with someone at work usually, and I'm actually using hand motions and talking, and, you know, which I think if I were a female in Salem, I probably would in and I had enemies. They would have said I was a witch, but my 15-year-old son goes, who are you talking to?

What are you saying? And I get angry at myself, that I'm not in the moment. I don't have presence. And other than just saying, be in the moment and be more present, are there hacks or practices that can help someone a dad in moments where he has the opportunity to like,

and I treasure this moment. I look forward to just hanging out. I, you know, we went to this, you know, this place called Jing last night. My son is the greatest dinner date in the world. He's curious. He likes food. And I get so angry that any portion of that,

I just start to go to a weird place or I'm not in the moment. Are there hacks or exercises to get better at presence? Yeah, well, meditation, you know, specifically mindfulness. is that hack, right? And again, it's just, it's noticing thought as thought. It's noticing that you're talking to yourself. You're talking to someone who isn't there, right?

I mean, if you're the one thinking the thought and you're the one hearing the thought, why do you have to say it in the first place? I mean, it's a very strange structure to this, where the eye is talking to the me. And it is psychotic, you know, in a way. I mean, to verbalize, if you were verbalizing it all the time,

You know, if the thoughts you were thinking were always coming out your mouth and you're having a conversation with someone who isn't there, you know, that's that's the litmus test for being crazy, right? I mean, the difference between crazy people and sane people, at least at least one, you know, one difference is we sane people, at least most of the time, know enough to keep our mouths shut, right? But we're still having the conversation and not knowing it. And it's the conversation is dictating how we feel. It's like a thought about your mother is not your mother. and yet you're acting in that moment as though you don't know the difference. And again, it is very much analogous to being asleep and dreaming

without knowing that you're dreaming. We all know our minds have this capacity to go, you close your eyes, you fall asleep by whatever method you found that works. And the next thing that happens, or the next part of the movie of your next scene, the dawns in your conscious life has nothing to do with you being in bed, right?

You're, you know, you're on a beach somewhere, or you're having a fight in a parking lot, or your, you know, your wife just broke up with you, and your brain is so unable to do the tiny bit, the tiniest bit of reality testing that would be required to notice this lack of, you know, psychological continuity, right? The impossible has just happened. You got into bed and you wound up in another country, right? The laws of physics have been suspended for your benefit. And so the most surprising things about dreams is that we're not, is our lack of surprise

when they arise. Again, there's an exception with lucid dreams where you actually know you're dreaming and that's all of that's very interesting. But for the most part, most people's dreams are not lucid. well, thinking without knowing your thinking in the waking state, right, having an argument with someone who isn't there, you know, just rehearsing the argument you had yesterday with a colleague or, you know, an enemy, or anticipating this thing that you're anxious about a week from now, but you're now getting anxious now because you're thinking about it without knowing that you're

thinking about it. This is very much, I mean, this is also neurologically true to say. It has a lot in common with dreaming in the sleeping state and not knowing that you're dreaming, right? There's a kind of, you know, phantasmagoria that comes over you. You're in this sort of visionary state and you're not and you're sort of decoupled from your immediate environment and you could be so decoupled that you might even, as in the case you just described, start talking to someone who isn't there, even in the presence of somebody who is there. In this case, your son, right? So, Yes, I mean, it's a very simple, it's not easy, but it's a very simple remedy for this, which is to pay closer attention. And the training by which you would get better at paying closer attention is mindfulness training, right? And it's just very systematically noticing. I mean, people, you tend to start with the breath in sitting meditation just because the breath is always there and it's very easy to notice. But very quickly, you open your awareness to everything. It doesn't exclude anything, even thought.

and you just systematically notice what's appearing in each moment. And every time you get lost in thought, you bring your attention back to what is sound, sensations, or even thoughts themselves. But the crucial thing to notice is that, you know, recrimination and, you know, hating yourself and disappointment and all of that's just more thinking. You know, again, you're just launched back into a conversation with yourself.

I mean, so here's what that conversation sounds like. like, God, I just fucked it up again. I can't believe it. We were going to dinner and, you know, I took the time. But like, who are you talking to? You're now, again, you're, you're, you can hear the emotional valence of those kinds of thoughts. You know, now you're, you know, what's the path of self-hatred? Well, it's to be thinking, self-hating thoughts, you know, castigating yourself to yourself

without noticing it. It's a, it's the waking dream of that conversation. Again, to break that spell, it just requires more precise attention. And it is quite remarkable that the spell can be broken every bit as decisively as waking up from a dream. And then the dream logic no longer applies. I mean, if you're having a fight in a parking lot with some psychopath and then you wake up and you find yourself in bed, you know, there's no parking lot, there's no psychopath. There's nothing, that transition is total, right? And no part of it entails you having to figure out how to, you know, punch the guy in the face better, right?

Or, you know, you get better at jujitsu. You know, by the dream logic, you know, all of that has evaporated. And it's true to in waking life. I mean, you can be, I'm not saying that thought, there's never anything to worry about or never anything worth thinking about, but 99% of our worry is wasted, right? I mean, the initial signal of fear or anger or whatever the negatively valence emotion is, grief, right? It's, that's information about your life or about your situation in the world. But in the next moment, those states of mind are almost never valuable, right? I mean, anger is almost never the state you want to be in to solve the problem that has made you angry.

So anger is useful for like five seconds. And then you want to be level-headed and figure out what, if anything, is worth doing. And so it is with fear. You know, it's like you get some scary diagnosis, and now you're having this adventure of, you know, calling doctors and scheduling medical tests, how much fear do you have to feel to do all of those things over the course of the next 10 days? You know, while waiting for results of an MRI, you got an MRI on Friday,

and for some reason we still live in a society where you can't get results until Monday, because Saturday and Sunday are magic days where no one can do anything. You know, this will be one thing the robots hopefully will help us with. you have to wait 72 hours to find out what's in your brain or body how anxious do you have to be over the course of those 72 hours how many of those moments of adrenaline are wasted all of them right i mean there's like you you just needed enough adrenaline to go get the scan in the first place and then you then you want to be as calm and and honestly as filled with gratitude for the life you've already lived, as you can be in the meantime.

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Set in 80s, Los Angeles, the Shards follows a group of beautiful, privileged prep school students who are preyed on by The Trawler, a serial killer. targeting teenagers across the city. This fever dream of youth, beauty, sex, and mystery is a must see. FX's The Shards, now streaming on Hulu on Disney Plus. Sign up now at Disneyplus.com. We're back with more from Sam Harris. So just in our remaining nine minutes here,

I want to go to a couple of the audience questions. So Anonymous asks, Sky, you're a self-described idea. Optimist, Sam, seems more skeptical of the future. Sam, you've talked to you. to both optimists and doomsayers? Like, where do you land on AI? Well, I'm very worried that we're in precisely the circumstance that many of us foresaw and have been worrying about

for more than a decade, wherein we can't, the incentives are such. We can't actually build it in a way that makes it likely we're going to not create some kind of, you know, doomsday failure mode for ourselves. I mean, we're, we're in an arms race condition, right? And an arms race, so, and it's an arms race in, in multiple directions. It's an arms race for all these, these companies against one another domestically, and it's an arms race among nations, right?

So we're racing China, but, you know, obviously Anthropic is racing Open AI, and under those conditions, we can't take the care, I think we must take to be sure that we're not deploying something that could get away from us, right? I mean, so this is the issue, this goes falls under the concern of the so-called alignment problem, right? Once we build super-intelligent AI, you know, AI that is more, I mean, arguably in many ways, we've already built it. I mean, the LLMs we have are superhuman in so many respects, right? I mean, they fail in certain ways that are not human and are subhuman, but for the most part, they're superhuman already.

What they're not currently doing is improving themselves by themselves autonomously, you know, a so-called recursive self-improvement. Once we have AI that is building the next generation of AI, so as to be better and better and better, and we have something like an intelligence explosion? Then the question is, have we engineered that explosion in a way that can be durably aligned with our survival,

to say nothing of our best interests? And there's a real concern that that problem might not even be solvable, right? I mean, there's like there are not many examples, is something that Jeffrey Hinton, one of the patriarchs of this technology has been saying. It's not many examples of a less intelligent species living in proximity to a more intelligent species and managing to control it, right? And we are building something, we're building alien minds with which we will be in relationship,

right? And if you're not envisioning that, if you think, oh, no, it's not really a relationship. we can just turn them off whenever we want, well, then you're not really envisioning true general intelligence. And we're, we're building things that are going to be more powerful than we are. And we will have to be living with them.

And it's, you know, it's a system. It's not, you know, it's not just, it would be very clear if we're just talking about humanoid robots, But it's more than that. It'll be integrated with everything. And, yeah, if it's not aligned, it's not, I mean, the general heuristic here, which worries many of us is that there has to be more ways to build unaligned superhuman AI than aligned superhuman AI. Right.

in the space of all possible superintelligences, one would expect that more of them than not would be less than perfectly aligned with our well-being across an indefinite future, that we know how to build these machines in ways where they're durability aligned with our interests, which is to say that, let's say their reward function is that what they care about most is to better and better approximate what we want out of life, right? I mean, they're perpetually uncertain as to how good life could be for us, and all they care about is making it better and better for us, and they're constantly open to dialogue about how to refine that project.

As far as I know, no one knows how to do that. So just in the last couple of minutes here, I want to return to attention. So late 20s, Sam Harris, just having to be a year, just have your PhD, just starting out, trying to find, you know, navigate the world, your place in it, find a way to be economically viable, find a mate. And think of attention as a capital that you allocate.

Now think of the Gen X, Sam, who's got a great partnership, great kids, some economic success relevance. How has your allocation of your attention capital shifted? Like, what are you more? What is the greatest difference in the way you allocate your attention capital now versus a young Sam Harris? Well, unfortunately, I'm not the greatest test case of this because, you know, in my 20s, I spent a lot of time focused on these, you know, deeper questions, however, impractical. I spent, you know, well over a year on silent meditation retreats in my 20s.

And I mean, I got my training kind of early on there before I built any kind of business or became a public figure or, you know, wrote any of my books. And so, you know, it's, I'm not the typical case. But, I mean, the difference for me that I think is generic is that, you know, the truth of impermanence needs to become more and more salient. you get older. I mean, it's not, it's, you know, it was sailing for, salient for me pretty early in life, but many of us, most, at least most of the time, act like we have all the time in the world, right? It doesn't really matter how much time we waste. And there's just, there's always another day on the

calendar that we can try to make the most of and then squander a lot of it on our phones. I do think it's worth, you know, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and engaging, you know, a little more executive control over this whole project and ask yourself, kind of in the aggregate, how you really want to live, right? I mean, just what is, what matters to you? And what is truly rewarding? And what will allow you to get to the end of each day and each year and to the end of of your life without regret.

And for me, I mean, the real recipe is, you know, paradoxically, it's not worrying about the future. It's not worrying about the past. It's not being ambitious in all the usual ways. I mean, seeking happiness in all the usual ways. It's actually developing a capacity to be more and more present so that you kind of equalize your moments, whereas, like, even if you're just, you know, stuck in traffic, you can can locate a depth of well-being that makes that not a problem, right? I mean, you're,

you're, you're, the, the lesson of life, as far as I can tell is that you can't become happy. You can only be happy. I mean, that's really, it's like that, that is the, the structure of our psychology that goes unacknowledged for most of our lives. We live, we live most of our lives thinking we can become happy. What we have to do is we have to get all the things and all the accolades and all the pieces in place such that we have a good enough story and good enough reasons to finally be happy. But for the most part, that's a mirage, right? And you need only look at all the super successful people who are obviously unhappy to be convinced of that, right? I mean, there are successful people who are, I don't mean just rich. I mean, you know, I don't mean just

random billionaires who made their money in some terribly boring way or, you know, lottery winners, I mean people who got, who were, who were incredibly creative and talented and had all their talents actualized and rewarded. And I mean, think of someone like, you know, Prince or Picasso or Steve Jobs, right? These guys were, were effectively geniuses. They got everything, you know, they could want, you know, they, they dug one, one well as deep as. they could dig it and the world loved them for it and they were obviously unhappy people, right? I mean, to one or another degree, they were schmucks. And so there's something more is required and that more is finding a way to actually fall into the well of the present moment more and more such that you can actually just love people and love your life and recognize how beautiful

life is even in its ordinary moments, right? And thought is not good enough for that project. You know, you're never going to have good enough thoughts about the past or the future to allow you to really live that way. And so it is, again, it does come back to this question of attention. But riding on top of that, you know, I think you want to live an ethical and gratitude-filled life, right? You don't want to be, don't be Elon Musk, right? Don't be somebody who, you know, lies, you know, in Trumpian fashion about everything and demonizes everyone in sight

and takes no responsibility for the harms he causes and, you know, worries about things like, you know, white genocide and signal boosts Nazis on the social media platform that he owns. And, I mean, like, the guy's a total, he's a first trillionaire, or now first former trillionaire, but he's a total maniac, right?

I mean, it's like that's what it looks like to have a mind that's out of control, right? That's what's being showcased for the entire world. There's nothing to emulate there. As much as you might admire the fact that he can land a rocket on a barge, that's a wonderful thing. But at what point, where is it written that you have to be an unhappy asshole to land a rocket on a barge? I don't think that's the case. And so we should be drawing the right lessons from all of this, which is, you know, we need successful people who recognize that in their success,

they really want other people to succeed too, right? And there's a social fabric that they're part of that they didn't make. And that fabric can unravel. And when I look at the heights of our, certainly the world in which you spend a lot of time, you know, in and thinking about, you know, the heights of entrepreneurship and business, I'm not seeing many examples of truly ethical people who are modeling, you know, a real commitment to being a good citizen and a good steward of the future or anything much else that's worth caring about. I mean, there's kind of a rapacious feeding of the trough now and a

shattering of our political lives. And we have to pull back from this brink because it's getting weird out there. Sam Harris is a neuroscientist and the host of the Making Sense podcast. I want to thank everyone for tuning in for joining us. Also, if you want to find more of Sam's work, just check out a substack. And if you'd like to join future live stream, subscribe to Prop2Plus of Proptoomedia.com. Sam, anecdote, I had lunch with a guy named Jay Seuris, I believe his name is.

He's the vice chair of UTA and on the Board of Regents for UC, and your name came up. And he said, oh, I went to high school with Sam. And I'm like, really? What was Sam like in high school? And he's like, I only knew him by reputation, but everyone in our high school that didn't agree on anything all agreed he was the smartest person in our high school.

See, you were developing. I don't know if that's true, but I know Jay was ahead of me. He was a year ahead of me. So, yeah. Well, it's high praise that we said the only thing we knew about Sam at that moment when he was like 16 was he was the smartest guy in our high school. Anyway, Sam, always enjoy the conversation. Appreciate your wisdom and friendship. And just quite frankly, you have taken so much shit online.

I know it's cost you a little bit economically. I know it's cost you some clout. and I take inspiration from you because Honey Badger don't give a shit. I really do think you have a moral compass and you're willing to take the bullets as long as you think you're, you know, saying what you believe. Well, getting off social media is the life hack that I recommend there. I mean, you don't even see it, you know. I don't even know what shit you're talking about at this point. It's quite amazing.

Geras Fisher sent me this thing saying a guy who came in third place for the L.A. Moral race. is shit posting me on Twitter. And I'm like, I'll just take it as a badge of honor. I don't even want to go on. I don't even want to see it. Anyways, have a great rest of the week, Sam. Yeah, you too, man. And thanks, everybody.

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Laura Janair. Camry Rieke is our social producer, Bianca Rosario Ramirez, is our video editor. And Drew Burroughs is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the PropG pod from PropG Media. Want to talk ETS with the people behind them? Join me, Etienne Jean-Cabouchar on the upside. ticker talk. We dive into what's moving markets with timely analysis, trends, and answers

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