The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway - Slow Thinking

Episode Date: June 4, 2020

Professor and Dean Emeritus of NYU Stern School of Business and economist, Peter Henry, joins Scott to discuss the inevitability of the moment we’re in surrounding the Black Lives Matter movement, systemic racism, and injustice. Henry also serves on a variety of boards, including Nike, and shares how brands can lead with authenticity.  Henry is the author of Turnaround: Third World Lessons for First World Growth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to episode 12 of the Prop G Show. We are in the midst of a national crisis, specifically the Black Lives Matter movement. Systemic racism has been the catalyst for what has been not a regional, not a citywide protest, but a national movement. And it would be tone deaf to try and avoid or talk about something else today. So we're going to attempt to, as best we can, see if we can shed some new light on the topic. So today we're bringing on a friend and my old boss, Professor and Dean Emeritus of NYU Stern School of Business, Peter Henry, who's also a well-regarded economist and author. We're bringing Peter on, A, because he's an incredibly intelligent, insightful person. And as a black man who has family in law enforcement,

the bottom line is he just has a perspective that I can never have. And so we wanted to bring him on and get his insight and views into some of these fairly complex times. So with that, let's kick off our interview with Dean Peter Henry, one of the most impressive people I know. True story about Peter, true story about Peter. When he was appointed dean, I read about him. Youngest dean appointed to a business school, former scholar athlete, played football at UNC, Rhodes Scholar, PhD from MIT, stamp, you know, the whole just like crazy resume, right? First time I ever saw Peter, he was with his mother walking her out of church on a Sunday. I mean, he's one of those guys you kind of don't believe he's for real, but he is. Anyways, with that, our conversation with

Dean Peter Henry. Peter, where does this podcast find you? I am in New York City, right near NYU. Let's bust right into it. This is the social unrest gripping our city, gripping the country. It's not a regional thing. It's a national thing. Talk a little bit about the inevitability of this moment and what you think it means to the country. Yeah, I think it really was inevitable, Scott. I couldn't have predicted that this would happen now.

In fact, I thought the moment we're seeing right now, we'd see maybe 10 years from now. But just stepping back, if you think about it, so the United States is this amazing country founded on a bunch of contradictions, right? So we have this unbelievable document called the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which are probably two of the leading institutions in the Western world in terms of being revolutionary in terms of ideas of freedom and so forth. But the country's also founded on slavery and genocide and stealing of land. And so you have this sort of evolution. You sort of fast forward the country a few hundred years and what's happened. So you have this amazing set of documents that talk about freedom and

inalienable rights and the equality of men, but the United States has never actually lived up to that ideal, right? And not only has the United States never lived up to that ideal, but the demographics of this country, as you know, Scott, are changing dramatically. And so by 2040, this country becomes a minority-majority country. In other words, the majority of the country will no longer look like the people who actually wrote those documents. And so I think it was inevitable the United States was going to face a reckoning moment where people had to decide, are we going to really honor the Constitution when the folks in the majority don't look like the people who wrote the Constitution?

And I think that's really what, at a deeper level, what this is about. So a couple of things. One, you think, we hear a lot that if you look at how diverse we are, that we're doing better than most places. But you think, and it doesn't escape me that we as Americans escaped oppression such that we could be free to enslave another people, right? That was kind of our founding action. But you think it's in our DNA. So for example, do you think we're going to have a tougher time getting to a place of racial justice and say, for example, Germany, because it's just not in our DNA or controversy or division or this DNA of looting a country for its human capital and enslaving them and bringing

them here for tremendous economic benefit for a ruling class. Do you think that holds us back, that DNA still gets in the way of our progress? It gets in the way and it doesn't, you know, the thing is, Scott, we still haven't fully had the conversation about it. And we fully haven't fully had the conversation about it because it requires, a real conversation requires acknowledgement of what took place. And I think the difference between the United States and some other Western democracies is the point that you made. It's the size of the plurality, right? So you've got other Western democracies where you have, you know, terrible things that have happened and where you have some, you know, multiculturalism. But the United States has a, you know, has a minority population that is huge relative to the, you know, the descendants of the founding fathers. And that's what's forcing us, right?

Because if you think about it, you know, are you willing to actually honor freedom when you're not a super majority? And that's really what this is about. If you kind of look at this, for instance, look at the last seven elections, I think. The Democrats have won the popular vote last six out of seven elections. And for years, people have said, well, the Republican Party needs to be more competitive, right? The Republican Party needs to reform itself to actually compete to win votes. That's one strategy. Another strategy is to actually suppress votes. And it's pretty clear that today's Republican Party has chosen not to compete. Their strategy is to suppress votes because of exactly the conflict that you mentioned. And so I don't think it's, I think because of the way in which the country was founded, people get really uptight because they feel as though, you know, we can't talk about the history of the country, honestly, because it means I'm going to have to give up everything that I've got or something.

You know, people are not responsible for the sins of their father, but we all have benefited, myself included. I'm black. I'm a black immigrant, but I'm living in a country that is, you know, where there's blood on the soil. And so let's have that conversation. We've never fully had the conversation. We've only kind of put Band-Aids on it time and time again. But what's forcing us to really deal with it now is because the combination of the suppression that's going on, because part of the country is worried that they're going to basically be in the minority. Do you think, and this is, so I, like, it's almost impossible. I'm a 55-year-old white dude, right?

And it's almost impossible not to fully empathize with it. Or you can empathize, but I don't think I'll ever, like, really get it. I'm just treated differently when I'm pulled over by the cops. And I assume you immediately extrapolate, well, that's how they treat everybody. Let me put forward a thesis and you respond to it, that systemic racism in our society is awful, but it's less bad than it's ever been. And that we elected and reelected a black president. There are more African-American police chiefs than ever. There are more people of color elected to Congress and Senate in this last election cycle. That what is happening here is the spark that has

set on fire this underlying incendiary powder of income inequality that largely impacts or disproportionately impacts people of color and women. Or is it that I just can't see that racism, is racism getting worse in this country? I'll tell you what's getting worse. So systemic racism has always been an issue. I felt it not as much as some of others have felt because of the own privilege that I have. But what has gotten worse is, again, it's sort of this inexorable kind of dynamic that's happening in the country, right? So President Obama gets elected, and that's unthinkable for a large, significant fraction of the US population. In some ways, it's symbolic of this demographic 2040 change that I talked about,

right? So the fact that you can actually have a black president is, oh my gosh, like this day of reckoning, having a US that is not what I define the US to be, which is essentially a white, Christian, largely Anglo-Saxon country, right? And so I think that sets off fear and anxiety on top of the other issues you mentioned related to income inequality and so forth. And it forces the question, who are we, right? I'm actually going to allow the country to continue to evolve in such a way that, as you said, with more black police chiefs, more blacks in corporations, and we have made some real progress in a lot of these issues. But when the rubber hits the road, in terms of what you mentioned, sort of basic individual

freedom, when I, Peter Henry, am not in my institutional role as a professor at NYU, former dean, person with a PhD, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just encountered in the street or on the highway. I have an encounter with a law enforcement officer. We're back in that sort of, let's call it kind of primitive, primordial space of the fundamental power dynamics that have always defined the cornerstone of this country, which is frankly that, you know, this is a country for white men and everyone else is sort of, you know, allowed to sort of play as part of that system as long as they play a certain role. And I think that the changes that we've seen from President Obama being elected twice to the Democrats winning

a larger and larger fractions of the popular vote and more frequently because of the changing demographics of the country are alarms to a certain subset of the GOP. And they've really taken it upon themselves to try to basically undo many of the safeguards in the Constitution that actually underwrite the very principles of the country. And so it's a very complicated mix. So you could have the weakening or the chipping away of systemic racism in many institutions. But if fundamentally law enforcement, right, which is about protecting people's lives, or as we've seen, endangering people's lives, if that particular institution still can act with impunity in killing black men and people of color, then you've got a problem. Talk more about your personal experiences with law enforcement. I know

you went to high school in an all-white Chicago suburb and you interned with the Minneapolis Police Department in the late 80s. What has been your exposure and experience with law enforcement? Yeah, so it's interesting. So I have great respect for policemen. I have family members who are in law enforcement and I have family members who serve in the military. And you mentioned the Minneapolis Police Department, really terrific experience in many ways, having a public safety internship and seeing what law enforcement does. But frankly, I'll be honest with you, after that summer, the single biggest change that I made in terms of my own sort of personal behaviors, I never left home without an identification. I've had the conversation with my four sons about, you know, how you comport yourself and how you need to always, you can never leave the house without identification,

because otherwise the police can say you are whoever they want to say you are. You're, you know, you fit a description of, you know, some black male that's under suspicion, unless you've got an identification. After my experience in the Minneapolis Police Department and seeing various encounters between, frankly, black men and police officers, I just made a conscious decision. I was never leaving home without identification, specifically my driver's license after that. When you think about, so you've lived this, I don't want to call it privileged life, but you've had this crazy trajectory. You're an ambitious guy and you've done something out of central casting for the American success story. Where do you think you've seen it the most? Is it in random situations where you don't have the veneer of NYU or the badging of people don't know your degrees and your accomplishments and you're just pulled over by law enforcement? Is it more subtle things every day at work? I mean, I just think about it. Yeah, that's a great question, Scott. And so for me, the heart-stopping moment is always, I mean, again, I have great respect for law enforcement officers, but I don't want to

encounter a random law enforcement officer in an uncontrolled environment. I'll do anything I can to avoid that, because that's the moment of risk that you have very little control over. The bad news is that is a dangerous moment because you're dealing with someone who has a gun and the authority to... And our society so far seems to err on the side of poor judgment with the guy with the badge and the gun, right? And the good news is we should be able to tackle that. I mean, although there are 4,000 police districts around the nation, that is, it seems like a population that we should be able to educate and hold accountable. Why is it that so much of the negatives of systemic racism, so much of the fear that you feel are the things

you have to educate your boys around. Why wouldn't we be able to fix that, I guess, is the question. We can't fix it. You're right, Scott. We have to want to fix it. And when I say we, it's got to be a collective. There have to be enough people, enough voters, right? Who voted and judges and chiefs and other elected officials who have positions of power, particularly in law enforcement, who are actually going to make change. And people have to stand up and say, I'm not going to accept this anymore. And so unless people, it's not enough to say I reject the status quo. You can say anything you want.

You can say I'm an ally. The question is, will you actually vote to allocate resources? Will you actually convict people who are in violation of the law and violate people's civil rights? And really importantly, will people who occupy positions of power, national office in particular, the president in particular, use their bully pulpit to make it very clear this will not be tolerated? You know, what a president says really matters, as you know. Absent that, you won't get the change, which is why I say we will have to want it to change. And I think what it means right now, I think it's why people are, why you're seeing, you know, not just blacks protesting, but I think it was in Portland, Maine yesterday, Portland, Oregon yesterday, probably the most diverse group of protesters I've ever seen.

People are actually saying, okay, you know what, if we don't actually begin to act, this is not going to change. It feels like, just to put a pause there, it feels like this isn't so much a racial divide as it is a generational divide. And that is the way people feel about this, the largest indicator I think of how people feel about this is more age-based than race. It feels like people under the age of 30, at least the ones I talked to, almost feel a civic obligation to protest. I've been struck by how passionate they are about this. And going back to this notion of voting, and this is another get off my line comment, I look at the people protesting. I look at the cohorts protesting. I think, okay, should I go protest? And I see, okay, this is really inspiring because it's a lot of people

getting involved, expressing their viewpoint, taking risks. And then I think, why is it young people don't vote in the same proportions as the... I mean, it strikes me, Peter, and tell me if you agree with this, voting has become too powerful, that our elected representatives are overrunning our institutions, our courts, our laws, our constitution, that voting has almost too much power at this point, that our institutions as a liberal democracy have been overrun by our elected officials. It strikes me that vote for the prosecutor, vote for the representative, vote for the judge. Why do young people, do you think they've just given up? They've just said, okay, democracy doesn't work. I've got to take to the street.

Yeah, it's a great question. Clearly, young people don't vote as much as they need to as they should. And because of that, as you said, we have kind of a set of elected officials that skew towards the preferences of the older and skew towards the preferences, frankly, of those who have kind of the most to lose from actually having a more kind of a flattening of the playing field, if you will. So again, go back to this point of a generational divide and people becoming increasingly worried about what will America be if we actually honor the Constitution? What's going to happen if we actually honor the constitution, what's going to happen if we actually allow all these black and brown people, people who are not Christians and so on and so forth, to actually have a vote? I think in particular, I think there's an older generation, an older, whiter, more Republican generation that is frightened of that. I think one of the most

important things that has to happened from this point forward, as we just think about November, for instance, is people need to vote. And frankly, we need as a country to figure out how to make it easy for people to vote and easy for people to vote without endangering their lives and their health. That's going to be critical. And then we'll have an election. And I think this election is even more pivotal than people realize. Because I really think the question on the table in this election, Scott, is, is America going to be we the people? Or are we going to vote for an America that says, no, we can't be we the people, because we the people today looks very different than we the people 200 some years ago.

And therefore, you know what about the constitution? As Gilda Radder used to say, just kidding. Let's talk a little bit about, let's move to the corporate side. You serve on boards of directors from firms ranging from Nike to Citigroup. That's right. And I see a lot of these ads and tell me if I'm being cynical, I feel as if we've gotten to the point where we've jumped the shark around statements from corporations saying we stand with Black Lives Matter, that unless you're willing to make concrete actions, I mean, what, let me back up. You're on the board of Nike.

What would you tell, how would you tell them to respond to this? Not recognizing you can't, you're not speaking as a spokesperson for Nike, but someone who's a fiduciary for all stakeholders. How does Nike handle this in addition to compelling ads saying, don't do that or just don't? And I'm just going to point this out here. 8% of Nike's VPs are African-American. And there's a lot of great things going on at Nike, but they fall under a lot of criticism for this is an organization that makes a ton of money off of endorsed athletes, people of color, selling shoes into people of color, and senior management ranks doesn't reflect either of those things.

What advice do you have for companies like Nike who play a big role moving forward in addressing systemic racism? It's going to sound corny, but just do it. And one of the reasons why I'm actually, frankly, I'm going to sound corny, but just do it. And one of the reasons why I'm, frankly, I'm going to sound biased here, but honestly, why I'm really proud to be associated with Nike is Nike takes criticism better than any organization I've ever seen. It really reflects sort of an athlete's mentality that way. In other words, coach tells you, you need to work on your left hand or your left foot or whatever it is, you go do it to get better. And the criticism

just made of Nike is a conversation that we have at almost every board meeting, which is, what are we doing to improve the numbers? And I was a Black Employee Network event invited to participate in Nike earlier this year. And it was really moving to me because, you know, I had the chance to really sit with black employees at Nike at various levels and just hear honestly from them, you know, what they're pleased with about what the company's doing and what the company needs to work harder at. And then one of the things that really strikes me, Scott, there's, you know, I mean, you pointed it out earlier, that's at odds right now with, just odd, is corporations,

and not all corporations, but I think a lot of corporations are actually put, they're not where they need to be, but they're certainly ahead of our federal government in terms of actually understanding the importance of diversity,

not as a nice to have, but as a must have, because they know that that affects their performance. And so we find ourselves in a strange situation where I think actually a lot of corporations are actually, you know, ahead of the government, because it used to be that the government, the federal government had to push, whether it be through affirmative action or other means to get companies to actually do the right thing. And just another point, you know, that I think, because you pointed out earlier the importance of this new generation. You see it and I see it. We both teach at NYU. This generation of students, of business school students, they want to work for organizations that are authentic. I'm a part of, is the realization that if we don't behave authentically and not just talk

about it, but actually behave authentically by getting our numbers to change, making sure that we're actually really listening to our employees, we won't be able to get those top students coming out of school because they'll go elsewhere. So I want to switch gears for a second, Peter. I think of you as someone, I admire you because of your professional success, but you're a role model for me because of your personal success. Married for a long time, four kids. I know that you're a man of faith and you just seem very comfortable in your own skin, for lack of a better term. For some reason, this podcast, it skews very young and it skews very male. What advice would you give to a man who wants to be a better

husband, a man who wants to be a better father, and in general, wants to be a better man? What piece of advice can you give to the young men out there after having had, from all exterior measures, looks like a very successful partnership with your wife for kids who are thriving. What advice do you have for young men? First of all, I love the question, Scott. Thank you for that. I would say a couple of things. I would say, number one, learn to listen.

Learn to really listen. I think men have this desire or this need to somehow feel as though they're powerful and in control. And I think it often gets in the way of being able to really hear what another person's saying to you. And the reason why listening is so important, because if you think about how to be a better husband, for instance, communication is at the heart of a good marriage. And if you don't listen to your wife or your girlfriend or your spouse or your significant other, how are you going to communicate with them?

And I think that men are sometimes so drawn to this image of like the alpha guy is the guy who always knows what to say or always is in charge. But if you actually really want to be a leader and get people to follow you, whether that be your family or organization, then you got to listen to those people. So I'd say number one, learn to listen, learn to really listen. And number two, and then maybe, you know, maybe 1A, because I think it's equally important. And very importantly, I learned this lesson from my mother, learn to say, I'm sorry. I can't tell you how many times in my life, whether it's trying to close million dollar gifts or multimillion dollar gifts, or trying to work

through a difficult dispute. If you as a man can say to the person across me, in particular, if the other person across from me is a man, say, you know what? I'm sorry. My mistake. My bad. It changes the dynamic of the conversation. And if you do those things, you learn to say, you know what? I'm sorry. My mistake. My bad. It changes the dynamic of the conversation. And if you do those things, if you listen, learn to say I'm sorry, and own your mistakes, and make changes, people will run through fire for you. Peter Henry is a professor and Dean Emeritus of the NYU Stern School of Business, economist and author of Turnaround, Third World Lessons for First World Growth. He joins us from New York. Stay well, Peter. It's great to catch up with you.

It's great to be with you, Scott. We'll be right back. Support for this show comes from Constant Contact. You know what's not easy? Marketing. And when you're starting your small business, while you're so focused on the day-to-day, the personnel, and the finances, marketing is the last thing on your mind. But if customers don't know about you, the rest of it doesn't really matter. Luckily, there's Constant Contact. Constant Contact's award-winning marketing platform can help your businesses stand out, stay top of mind,

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Published by Capital Client Group, Inc. Okay, a quick algebra of happiness today. I think one of the keys to being a successful parent, a good friend, a productive member of a family unit, a good manager, a good leader, a good officer of the law, and a good protester is knowing when to deescalate the situation. And that is not giving into your fast thinking. We are tribal. We don't trust people innately who don't look like us. And we perceive threats, especially among people who are in a different uniform than us or have a different skin color than us. And if we give into our fast thinking and become tribal and primal, things can escalate fast. And the ability to de-escalate and call on our slow thinking, according to Kahneman,

is key to our evolution as a species and one of our superpowers. And I don't care if you're in a meeting and people start arguing for the wrong reasons, or if you find yourself in an argument with your partner or your spouse, the ability to be the bigger person and deescalate the situation is a skill set. I wish I had learned at an earlier age, but I think we need a lot of that now. Unfortunately, the person who should have the greatest skill set at being able to turn down the temperature should be the president of the United States. It is largely, if you think about it, the most important role in the world. And the one role, the one role where you'd really hope that this person brings an ability to dial the temperature down around all the burners or

different burners around the world. And the fact that we don't have that makes the world a much less safer place. So think about your own ability in any situation to bring forgiveness and grace and call on your slow thinking and develop the ability to deescalate, to turn the temperature down. Our producers are Caroline Shagrin and Drew Burrows. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you next week with another episode of the Prop G Show from Section 4 and the Westwood One Podcast Network.