The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway - What Does Masculinity Mean Today? (A Lost Boys Special)

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

We're bringing you another episode from Lost Boys, hosted by Anthony Scaramucci and Scott Galloway. This time, they ask: What does masculinity mean today? Anthony and Scott explore how the definition of manhood is changing, the pressures men face in relationships and families, and why a new model of masculinity is needed for the modern age. Subscribe to Lost Boys. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How do we AI proof our jobs? How do we fix the deficit? How do we get our political system working again? I'm Henry Blodgett, and I'm launching a new podcast called Solutions, where every week I'll talk to an innovative enterprising expert to cut through the doom and focus on how to build a better world. Follow Solutions with Henry Blodgett wherever you get your podcasts. The first episode will be out Monday, August 18th.

A lot of people do not like the new version of chat GPT. They hated so much that OpenAI brought back the old version to please them. This week on the Vergecast, we give our take now that we've had a week to try GPT5 in the wild. And we tried vibe coding, and it did not go very well. Plus, Gentui talked to a man whose smart home products stopped working. So, he did what anybody would do. bought the company that made them. That's this week on The Vergecast.

Hey, everyone, Scott Galloway here today on The Lost Boys. Anthony Scaramucci and I dig into a big question. What does it mean to be a man today? We explore how masculinity is evolving and what that means for relationships, families, and community. I share the principles I try to live by and Anthony opens up about the values he learned from his father. Let's bust right into it.

Welcome to Lost Boys, the podcast where my friend, Professor Scott Galloway and I dig into the unique challenges young men are facing today and what we can do about it. In this episode, Scott and I talk about the changing definition of masculinity and how that impacts young men's lives, relationships, and families. You know, there's Scott's definition of what makes a man today and a story of the best. thing I was ever forced to do. Here's my conversation with Scott Galloway. We're going to focus on what it means to be a man and how young men need to be engaged with their family and their community. And so for me, I'll just speak for myself briefly. I've always felt this. I've always felt three or four things about my life. Number one, charity starts at the home. Number two, I'm still connected to my roots. I am talking to you right now from a home that's two miles from where I grew up

in the neighborhood that I was in. Many of my cousins have, you know, fortunately, unfortunately, some of them have done very well. Some of them have not done well. But I have felt this commitment to my family to make sure that there's been tuitions paid or medical expenses taken care of or cars bought in an effort to stay in the game. I use this example. I use this example. And I don't want to make this a political discussion, but I'll just say this to you, Scott. There are two families, and you tell me which family is going to do better. There's one family where it's a blue-collar family, and there's one kid in the family has done very well, and they have made a decision to help out the other family members, you know?

And again, I'm not talking about buying Mercedes, but just making sure that there's cars available or medical care and things like that. The second group, they have one person that's done very well, but they charge admission to their swimming pool. Which family do you think from a holistic perspective is going to do better? And by the way, you can apply that to the world because the United States has got 4% of the population, 26% of the economic output. And we've got to be very, very careful. This is a masculinity issue. does spill over into politics, by the way, but we have to think about who we are as people

and how we want to define ourselves inside of our families and our communities. What are your thoughts there? So I've struggled with trying to come up with a series of constructs that people can hold on to, to turn to around masculinity that doesn't in any way diminish femininity or doesn't in any way acknowledge the challenges that women still face. I'm struggling with it. I'm writing a book on it and I have not figured it out or how to thread that needle. But one construct I have come up with is that I say to concentric circles of masculinity, and that is the core circle is you got to take care of yourself. You got to be strong. You got to be mentally healthy. You got to surround yourself with people to make you feel good about yourselves. Every day you've got to get up and say, I'm going to sleep well, I'm going to work out, I'm going to eat well, such that I can be strong. And I need to take care of myself. I need to be economically viable. Once you achieve that and you've taken care of the core, you've to fix your own oxygen mask first. You know, that's what they tell you on a plane. You can't you can't save other people if you're not healthy, if you're not strong. That's the first thing you

got to do. Once you achieve that, you go to your second circle and that is you really help take care of your immediate family. And I know a lot of men who are just so impressive on every exterior dimension, and I don't think of them as real men because they have a shitty relationship with their family and their kids and they don't take care of them. Now, Elon Musk just gave, we found that had his 13th kid, and the mother of that child is suing him for sole custody, and it came out that he has not seen or asked about the kid since the kid that was born, since the kid was born. That's the exact opposite of masculinity. Your circle outside, once you can take care of yourself, and if you're worth $400 billion, you can take care of yourself, is you take care of your immediate

family. Otherwise, you just fail every metric, as far as I'm concerned. And that means a lot of forgiveness. Your siblings, your parents, your cousins, they're going to fuck up. They might be jealous. They might be nice people. They might be addicted to drugs. The definition of family is people you help and you otherwise wouldn't hang out with because they're family. And you take care of those people unconditionally. The next circle out is extended family in your community. The next circle out, I think, is trying to take care of citizens. And then the ultimate outer ring, The ultimate expression of masculinity is that you plant trees, the shade of which you will never sit under. I think that's the ultimate expression of masculinity is you take a bullet for, you provide resources,

you think long term, you help people who are never, ever going to even have the chance to say thank you. That is the goal. That is the brass ring. Because what that means is, and you can't skip any of the circles, you got strong. You took care of yours. you took care of anyone or near a community or you helped out. And sometimes helping, sometimes taking care of people is not helping out, letting them head rock bottom, not enabling them, whatever it might be,

tough love, whatever you want to call it. And then you start investing in your community and your country. That is the truest form of masculinity. And the way I describe you, Anthony, is you gave me a ride home. And the driver is your cousin, right? Yeah, it's my, yeah, my second cousin, exactly. Your second cousin. So I bet my only family for the most,

part, it was my mom who passed away. My father wasn't very much. I did not have a big family. So I didn't develop that intimacy or that familial obligation. I just, I never felt it until I had kids. I just didn't have a, I didn't have a family, big family in the U.S. You're something out of one of those kind of sitcoms. You're kind of my sense is you feel a very strong sense of obligation to that second circle out that all right i took care of myself i've made some money now i'm going to take care of my cousin i think you even telling me your your cousin who was a clamor and hurt himself and now he's your driver is that correct well you have a really good memory i'm so impressed so my my cousin hurt himself and so he's frankly home and i help subsidize his lifestyle because

i i don't want him to feel bad about himself and i got to make sure is rent is paid and his family has enough food and housing and shelter. His son, who was clamming with him, is actually my driver. And so my 66-year-old cousin, who I grew up with, and I'll tell you this, because you get it, because we were latchkey kids. And this is another weird thing about life, right? We've got all this helicopter parenting going on right now, but my mom and dad were exhausted, Scott. So, you know, I was at the station diner, which was by the rail station at 2 o'clock in the morning at age 11, eating pancakes with my cousin Bobby, who's the one I'm referring to that has the two bad hips as a result of all the years of physical work. And so my attitude is we were

there together as kids and our lives are separated through fate and luck and, you know, hard work and determination and all those other things. But there's a lot of things that happen in your life that are lucky. And I don't want to leave him or anybody behind. And I think it's important message about masculinity. It's not just what you have, but how can you make others feel that are in your environment? And I think, I think, again, there's a political angle to this as well. You know, the neo-Victorians that ran America at the end of the Second World War understood this no police obliged that I'm referring to. And they were like, okay, we got to figure out a way to create rising living standards around the world. And if we can do this successfully,

there'll be less violence and there'll be more comity. I like you, I don't want to live in a bodwired security compound in a McMansion while my fellow neighbors and or my family are struggling. I think it's very, very important to understand that. And as wicked of a person as Henry Ford was, he did say something brilliant about social engineering. He said, I want to make sure that these workers can afford the car or the product that they're manufacturing. And I've got to make sure they're in a single family home with a good school system because I don't want them descending on my dearborn Michigan mansion with teaky torches and pitchforks. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that.

that's being masculine. Do I have that wrong? Is masculinity more than just beating your chest? I think there's masculinity, Scott, and then I think there's hyper masculinity, which is almost borderline evil, which is almost insincere. Yeah, this is a tough one. So there's another construct, and Richard Rees talked about this, is surplus value. And that is, and I say this to my boys, I'm like, you're negative value right now. What do you mean? I'm like, okay, think about the school you go to. All these teachers, all this money, all this, these textbooks, coaches, what are you doing for them? What do you mean? What are you doing for them? What are you doing for your English teacher? What are you doing for these people? All right, well, I should go up to school. You're adding negative value. You leave every day your school with negative value. A ton of people investing in you. You're not giving back. And you're adding negative value around the household. Your mom, your dad, your dad. we're investing so much in you. And quite frankly, some people never get to surplus value.

I know a lot of adults that are a constant emotional and even a financial drain on their parents and their siblings. At some point, what I say to what I say to them is, okay, when you become a man, it's not a, it's not a religious ceremony. It's not anything about getting your job or an age or a birthday or getting to drink alcohol or have sex. I think when you cross over into manhood is when you have a manhood is when you have a, on a net basis are adding surplus value. You're creating more jobs, you're creating more tax revenue

than you're taxing our government, right? You're doing more to defend your country or investing more in your country than it is given you. You witness people's lives. You listen to more complaints than you complain. You solve more problems in people's lives than you create. And some people never get there. Some people, you pay more taxes. Exponentially, you pay more taxes than government services you have absorbed. I absorbed hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxpayer benefits going. I went to UCLA and Berkeley for seven years, total tuition, $7,000. That must have cost them at least a few hundred thousand dollars. At the age of 27, I came out a quarter of a million dollars in debt as I see it to California taxpayers.

And until I exponentially gave that money back, and I did, okay, the stock market, I did the math, the stock market is returned 11%. I figured I owed, I actually owed California taxpayers 30 years later. I owed them $11 million, and I gave it back. Because I wasn't adding surplus value. It's easy to say, well, I've created jobs, whatever. But you want to be the guy, the guy that is helping people out. I'm not saying be a martyr. I'm not saying engaged in relation. relationships are not getting something back. But I think this notion of surplus value, you are giving more than you're taking. Because through your life, you're going to have to take more, especially as a kid. And there's times when you need to take. There's times when you're like, okay, I'm struggling. I need other people's help. And part of being successful is knowing when to reach out and ask people for help and to accept it. I went to this one of these wine things. And I'm not into wine. And the guy was super successful guy. Runs like the biggest appliance company in Turkey very well. left the guy and he said, whatever I can do for you guys and he goes, and also he said to me, he goes, and also I never ask a friend for anything. I'm like, well, then you're not a real friend. Occasionally, I've got to ask people for help. Otherwise, people just feel like they're, you know, that you're beneficiary or whatever. But this notion, I really like this idea of young men should be thinking at some point my crossover to manhood, and it might not happen. I don't think it happened for me until I was in my 30s. I looked at every relationship as, am I getting more than I'm giving?

And if I'm not getting more than I'm giving, I break up with this person. I get divorced. I end this business partnership. And then you realize when you get older, you're like, you got it all wrong. The whole point is to add surplus value. You want to leave business relationships thinking, wow, we got more from that guy than he got, right? That's the point. That means you win. So I like this notion of masculinity being kind of defined as surplus value. Now, people will say, well, couldn't you argue that's about femininity too? And I think it's a fair point. But it's about, all right, it really takes stock your life. It's not a given that people are supposed to help you. The government is spending a shit ton of money to defend the shores, have roads, have someone answer the phone when you call 911 and then come send really talented people. to try and revive you if you OD on something, right? You OD and you take government services, you fucking owe the government a lot of money.

You have an obligation if and when you get better to start helping other people recover. And there's different ways to add surplus value. You can do it by being supportive. You can do it by being, you know, being a caregiver. You can also do it by giving away money. But I think at a fairly early age, I want my boys to start thinking about, you know, when am I going to get to this point of surplus value?

Because, and I tell them every day, you are a long way away. Be clear. Look at all the investment. Our government, people you've never met, your teachers, your parents, your grandparents are investing in you. You are racking up a debt. You have a debt. And at some point, hopefully you'll pay it back and you'll pay so much of it back that you'll enjoy the pride and the masculinity. of venturing into surplus value. But I like this construct, this meaning almost like an accounting term, surplus value. We'll be right back after a quick break.

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For today, explain, I'm outside the Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C., with one question, do you think we should go to Mars? I don't think you should live in Mars, no. I don't know why just Mars. I think as Earthlings, we are a nosy group of people, and I really don't think that we have any business going to Mars. Our knowledge about the solar system and the universe will grow substantially. I think maybe we should just leave Mars alone, just sit with Earth.

Like so many innovations are going to come out of it because so many different companies are going to be fighting to get that first ticket to Mars. So I feel like we should. But at the same time we should solve some problems here first. I think we need to expand what we know, what we see. Honestly, for our own benefit. benefit. You should go way beyond. Today, explained from Vox, is taking a summer sojourn on Mars. Join us.

You know, I did something as a youth that I did not want to do. My old boss, Jeff Bozzi, who is an amazing guy, head of investment banking at Goldman, brought me into his office. I was 27 years old. And he said, okay, you're now a student sponsor. I said, Excuse me? He says, yeah, you're going to go up to the Bronx. You're going to find a kid and you're going to sponsor them. You're going to take a piece of your salary and you're going to pay for this kid's Catholic school education up in the Bronx. And I was like, I don't want to do that. First of all, I don't have the money. Secondly, I've got my own school debt and I actually don't want to do this. And he said, well, that's fine, but you're doing it. This is a direct order for me. And so I actually did it. And I'm not embarrassed to tell you I didn't want. want to do it. But I went up to the Bronx, met the 13-year-old boy, got him into the Monsignor Scanlon Catholic school. His public school education was a disaster, Scott, could barely read or write. All right. So now I'm invested. I got him a tutor. And I sat with him on the weekends. And then I drove him around in my little Honda Civic, my 1987, this is 1992. This is my

1987 Honda Civic, and now I'm invested. Then I helped him find a foster dad. And then I helped him pay for his two-year Sunni old Westbury associates degree. And he's now in Hudson Yards working security with a wife and three kids. And he's got a real job and he's got a real life. And it's 32 years later and we're still very, very close. and it's one of the most meaningful, I'm not patting myself on the bat, I'm just pointing out to be one of the most meaningful things I've done in my life and I learned more from him than I did and I believe this. I learned more from him than he learned from me. And I'll tell you this. And my brother wouldn't mind me telling you this because we're very close and he is someone

that got addicted to drugs and spends a lot of time in drug counseling, spends a lot of time sponsoring people, when my brother entered drug rehab for the first time, this young African-American kid was 16. He's now 46. It was 30 years ago. And he turned to me, oh, you white people, you white people have the same problems that we do here in this black community. And yes, the answer to that is yes. And so the point I'm making about masculinity, and I want to ask you this question is vulnerability in masculinity, Scott? I believe it is. Well, you can't help others until you help yourself. And sometimes part of helping yourself is recognizing you need help and accepting help. There's a lot of resources out there. You know, it's hard to build a big business

without raising capital. And if you're not doing well, you got to raise human capital. You got to get other people's help. Otherwise, you're never going to, much less take care of yourself. You're never going to be in a position to take care of others. And what you reached at a much younger age than I did was that sense of surplus value and masculinity in the sense is you were helping out a kid when you didn't have a lot of money. I never helped anyone until I had a lot of money. Oh, by the way, I didn't want to, Scott. That was the whole point of the story. Yeah, but you did. I got pushed into it. Okay. I'm very grateful to you. I always call Jeff and tell them. You know, you, you didn't refuse. You could have refused or you could have done a shitty job. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't do anything philanthropic. I don't think I, the only time I ever gave money away before the age of 40 was so I could go to some cool party and hang out with hot women because we were clinical. My favor was when I first moved to York, there was this thing called save Venice. And it was a bunch of young people. We get dressed up in this costume thing and we had 500 or a thousand bucks. Supposedly we were saving Venice from the floods. Yeah, fuck us. Jesus, what a bunch of douchebags.

But I wanted to, the only time it was ever philanthropic was to go to these events. And then some stuff happened to me and it just kind of dawned on me that all I have done is just been like not a parasite, but I've just taken, taken, taken. And what you demonstrate or demonstrated is that if you think about going to the point where things come off the tracks for a boy, and we talked about this, I think, in the first episode is when they lose a male role model or they have no male involvement in their lives. And here's the thing. People think that they have to be a baller, that they have to have their own kids, economically secure, have some money in the bank before they can help a young

man. That is not true at all. It comes down to this. Are you a good person? Are you a good person? If you think I'm a good person, you can help out a young man. And it's not, you don't have to pay for their school. You don't have to have amazing advice, amazing life. experience, you just have to be there and show a boy that you as a good person are interested and invested in their success. You think they have value. That's it. If you can clear that bar, you can add a lot of value to a boy's life. And I think there are millions of men out there that maybe don't have their own relationships, don't have their own kids. And they think, well, I'm not a baller. I can't help a young man or I shouldn't get involved. No, nonsense. Are you

trying to lead a good life, are you a good person, do you think you could show up and show a, show a boy that he has worth just spending time with him, then you are in a great, that is 90, young men don't look up and like, oh my gosh, this guy, he's, he's the head of M&A for a Bolt's Brackett Investment Bank. They don't give a shit about that. They just want someone to take interest in their life and listen to them, maybe give him a ride, maybe take him to a ball game, maybe listen to them, whatever it might be, just kind of be there. And they, will start by virtue of you being there and showing up and taking an interest in their life, they're going to say, okay, this, this nice man who's leading a virtuous life thinks I have value. And if you do that enough times, the kid will start to believe it that he has value. And this is the point of failure, the single point of failure, is when a boy loses a male role model. And I would like to see immediately in family court, one out of three men has no contact with their children after six years. Some of it is their fault. Some of it is family court. Family court is very biased against men. A guy loses, he's almost always custody is given to the mother in the relationship. It is very hard sometimes because of the financial reasons for the man to stay involved as much as he'd like in the child's life. Also, quite frankly, I think a lot of spouses are so angry, I think there's so much rage, that they weaponize the kids against each

other. And whoever is living with the kids wins. I mean, occasionally, you know, they might say, oh, mom or, 92% of the time the kids go to the mom. And I have seen this firsthand, the kids are weaponized against dad. And sometimes they deserve to be because dad basically abandoned them. My father basically took off. But I've seen other situations where essentially, I mean, where essentially the guy or essentially the man has real trouble staying involved. And I think there needs to be a zeitguise that the moment, either through death or divorce or disease, there are no longer men involved in a boy's life. The community has to get involved in putting men back into that kid's life.

Because, and then immediately you hear this woke bullshit of, well, what do you mean? Women can't serve that role? No, they can't. They can't. Boys need men in their lives. And what's interesting is, if you look at the studies, in single-parent homes, girls have the same outcomes. Same rates of college attendance, same rates of self-harm. What it ends up is that why boys are physically stronger, they're mentally and emotionally weaker.

And here's a crazy stat. Two 15-year-olds sexually molested, the boy and a girl, the boy is 10 times more likely to kill himself later in life. They're weaker. That doesn't make either crime any less. less heinous. But the reality is boys are emotionally and psychologically, they're weaker. And so I think we have to pay more attention to, all right, it just should just be a common, a common sort of approach or cultural norm that the moment a boy does not have male role models or men involved in his life, we've got to get men involved in his life.

And it used to be coaches. Now after school programs are being cleared out, right? It could have been the military. And you have millions of boys now who the first male role model they have is a prison guard. So, so, you know, and I've said this, I've said this a bunch. I said this on Bill Maher. If we want better men, then we have to be better men. We have to immediately move in.

And here's the good news. You think, well, I'd like to help. I'm one of those men. There's this great movie, Magnolia, actually, when I'm a time. Cruz's Better Films. I think it's Paul West Anderson, Paul Anderson. And the guy in it, great actor, I forget his name. He's a bartender. And he says, I have so much love to give, I just don't know where to put it. And I think there are so many men out there who are a good men who have love to give, fraternal and paternal love, and they just don't know where to put it.

It's really easy. Find a single mother at your workplace, amongst your friends, your extended family, wherever it is, or a boy who's struggling, and ask the mom. or even the dad or the parents, is it cool if I hang out with this kid? Would you like to go to a ballgame with me? Would you like to come over and watch my car? Would you like to hang out? These young men who are kind of wandering,

for lack of a better term, are everywhere. They are everywhere. You will find them at work. The easiest way is to find the single mothers. And you're going to find the mothers are so receptive, you know, to this type of involvement. Because they get it. They immediately realize,

There are just certain things that a mom can't do for her son. They're just, there's just a certain relationship. I don't know. It's the depth of the voice, the size, ability to open up. There's a phenomenon, I think of myself, and I'm sure you do, as being great dads. Once the kid hits, once your son hits 14 or 15, he's more likely to listen to your friends than you. Amen. He's more likely.

That's why I'm sending all my kids your way, Galloway. Okay, all my kids are coming your way. And mine to you. But I get, I mean, you realize this is what I do for living. I get, I'm boasting out. I get, I get a large number of young men asking me for help. Do you think my son's ever asked me for advice? No way.

Dad's an idiot. Dad doesn't know. But we have about one minute left. And I just want to finish up on this one thought. I want you to channel it. And I'm going to give you a minute to say it. So I want you to think about. your self-worth, how much is it tied to your philosophy, your principles, your parenting,

your money? Because there's many different ways to describe wealth. And so let's pretend you channel your Gordon Ramsey for a second. And I've never watched Gordon Ramsey, but I think I know, meaning you're a cook. Yeah. I put one part this, one part that. Sure. You know, Anthony, I just got a, the honest answer is I get 90% of my self-esteem for my money. It's pathetic. Okay. It's growing. The 10% that's growing is I want to be a good citizen. I want to raise patriotic loving men. But I got to be honest, my whole life, I've identified my self-worth based on money. And it's been, and I realize it's unhealthy. It's been, I won't call it an obsession, but it's, it's, it's been a severe focus of mine. And just not until 10 years ago, I said, okay, money is the ink in my pen, but it's not my story. It can make, you can write certain chapters. It can make certain chapters

burn brighter, but I got to focus on other things. And now I've decided my purpose is to raise, again, loving patriotic men, and also to try and, like we were saying before, help people I will never meet. That that's, that's why I am here. But until 10 years ago, my self-esteem or act thereof came from money and women. And I didn't, I don't think I had a lot of strong values. I don't think I had a very strong base. I didn't have any religious code. My dad wasn't that involved in my life. I don't think I had a strong moral footing or grounding. I think whatever character I had established to that point, it was never mean. It was never a bad person came from my friends. But it wasn't until well into my 40s that I started really,

realizing the character is a lot more than how much money you have. I didn't get that. And unfortunately, in a society like ours, it will convince you every day thousands of times that as long as you have money, you're high character. And I fell into that trap. And I'm still too focused on money. I'm still to, you know, I'm still, I still evaluate my own self-worth too much based on how much money I made or lost in this year, not recognizing, you know, the key is, and I think I'm going to get there, when I die, it's going to be at home surrounded by people who love me. That's the goal, right? And I need to have enough money to do that, but I cross that threshold a long time. Now I'm very focused on making sure that at the end, there's a lot of people

who are not afraid because they're going to be taken care of, but they're really sad because they're going to miss me a lot. And up until just 10 years ago, I just want to to make sure I had more money than all of my friends. And if I didn't, I felt a shame. So I am still working on that. It's not something I have figured out. I think it's something that infects a lot of us. And I think it is very hard for a lot of young men to ever get to the point where they're in a position where they feel like they can take care of people because they have so little economic opportunity. And I think a lot of shame comes from it. You know, at some point in future episodes, I hope we're going to talk about public policy because I think what haunts a lot of men is their

inability to take care of others. And it's something that we need to work on because it just attacks your self-esteem. I know it attack mine. Well, listen, is it brilliant, it's brilliant on so many different levels, but it's extremely honest. I would say the same thing about myself, but I think as I've gotten older, I want to import to people that there's a blend of things that are equally important. And I've seen people that have become overly focused on money, not where it's 90% scop, it's 110%. Yeah, it's everything. And they've driven themselves crazy.

But all right, well, this has been a terrific day. And I appreciate your time this morning. And we'd be back with a few more episodes. Good. Thanks, Anthony. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Lost Boys. If you'd like more information, please go to our website, www.lossboys.men. Be sure to like, follow, and subscribe to Lost Boys.

Boys, wherever you get your podcast, and please share it with someone who cares about this or should care about this and let's spread the word. Lost Boys is a production of Salt Media and the Casablanca Strategy Group, Barbara Fadita and Keith Suma, are executive producers. Tanya Salati is our researcher, Holly Duncan Quinn and Stanley Goldberg, our editors. Special thanks to Christina Cassetti, Mary Jean Rebus, and Drew Burroughs. Thank you.