The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway - Why the Rich Want to Live Forever — with Kara Swisher

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Kara Swisher joins Scott Galloway to discuss her new CNN series Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever — and what she uncovered about the billion-dollar longevity industry. They explore why tech elites are obsessed with living forever, how trends like peptides and biohacking took off, and why most of it is noise. Plus, what actually works: the simple, unsexy factors that matter most for living longer, and why wealth and access may be the biggest advantages of all. Also, friendly reminder that we're live on Substack. Subscribe at profgmedia.com to get ad-free versions of all our podcasts, the full archive of Scott’s newsletters, and exclusive content including deep dives, livestream conversations, and subscriber Q&As. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Episode 392. 392 is the country code from Montenegro. In 1992, the first text message was sent. Just this morning, I was driving to work, and I saw some asshole texting while they were driving. So I rolled down my window and threw my beer at that bitch. All right, welcome to the 390 second episode of the Prof G-Pod. I'm losing count.

Like, if someone said, name one, I don't think I could name one. They were all sort of blended together, except I value the audience. It's all about the fans and the revenue I get from the advertising. But fans are definitely number two. And the fame, the fame. So fans number three. And it gives me something to do. So number four.

But anyways, we are glad you are here. So many nice people came up to me. I went to Coachella this weekend, which is a bit of a noomer because I have figured out how to do Coachella. A bunch of my friends from L.A. go and I want to see them. But I don't go to Coachella. I don't go to the Fairground. Although, especially David Byrne was amazing. I'm sure would have enjoyed that in the strokes.

But the headliner was Justin Bieber. Like, I give a flying fuck about Justin. I couldn't name a Justin Bieber song. And I think that's a really wonderful attribute of me. Like, what is great about Scott Galloway is he knows nothing about Justin Bieber and couldn't hum a Justin Bieber song of his life dependent on it. Anyways, little anger towards the Bebes. But I go and I hang out at a beautiful house and hang out by the pool

and watch the desert sun stroll by. It's so dry out and so beautiful, most beautiful sunrises and sunsets, like I see the sunrise. Anyways, just have a great time, hang out with friends, and then go to the after parties, and all these brands host these amazing parties, which I enjoy a great deal. And now I'm back in Los Angeles. At my home away from home, the Beverly Hills Hotel, hello, story of privilege. That's right. I just had an Arnold Palmer by the pool.

Anyways, today, what's happening? We're speaking with my good friend, and someone who I would. describe as singular, and that is there really aren't a lot of analogs for this person. I was trying to think who is most like this person, and I had trouble thinking of anyone, and that's my business wife, Kara Swisher, who's obviously an iconic tech journalist, has worked at The Post, the Washington Post, that is, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, was sort of one of the first people to podcasting and is really known as sort of an iconic tech journalist, and is also the host of On with Caras Swisher and as the co-host of pivot with yours truly. We discussed with Kara, her new docu-series on the Business of Longevity,

the Rise of the Peptide Crays, and what it all says about the intersection of tech, health, and hype. I'm just a, Kara's had a huge influence on my life. I went on her podcast, and then she called back and said, according to the data, our podcast together was the most downloaded in the history of the show, and I think it was a mistake, so I want you to come back on. which I did, and since then, I guess about seven years now, we've hosted Pivot, which of all the pods I do, is the biggest in terms of audience. But also, what I've really learned from Kara more than anything,

parenting advice. She's got four kids, two older kids, she locked and loaded again, has two younger ones. And I find she's very pragmatic and yet loving around children. And I call her whenever I have an issue around, I'm struggling around a move, whether I move back to the U.S. and its impact on my 15-year-old. And when I'm struggling with things like that,

I'll reach out to a few people and CARES on my short list of anyone I reach out to regarding parenting. Anyways, with that, here's our conversation with the singular Kara Swisher. Kara has a special or a limited series on CNN, which I got to be honest, I really, I was surprised to the upside. I went to the premiere in New York, and I'll let Kara explain it.

But first off, maybe just to set the table here, Kara, what was the genesis or the motivation for this? Why choose longevity and why now and why you? Well, largely you because I want you to live forever. But no, no, you're not a small part of it. You're one of the type of people that I had been hearing a lot from, and well before you, a lot of the tech guys had been talking constantly about their health and bodies, but not their health in hacking themselves. Like, that was one of their big topics

after they made money. And they were, whether it was soylent, if you remember, or it was intermittent fasting or various psychedelic drugs, they were always on to something to sort of optimize. And the word, you know, that's not a new thing, optimization of health, but it sort of got very loud for me. And then you started to see tech guys like Jeff Bezos and others, try to alter their bodies, right? Like, very significantly. From where they were, Mark Zuckerberg was another one. There's a bunch.

There's just, like, one after the other. I see someone. I'm like, who are you? And it was either through getting very thin or getting very fit, like, but fit to the point of, like, it was a lot. There was a lot happening. And so, and then they talked about this. And then Larry Ellison invested quite a lot in an institute,

anti-aging institute, and then all the others. Sam Altman, Bezos, Zuckerberg, they all invested in these health things, even more so than it had done before because other Google and Microsoft had been there previously. So it just was interesting to me. And at the same time, I was really interested in seeing what really works, right, because there's so much hype online for whatever blank of the week, right, essentially, which you love to like talk about. And so, so I was. really like what's real, what's not. And then lastly, all this stuff around, as you have, you really inspired them, GLP-1s, MRNA vaccines, gene editing. There's some real stuff happening here. So there's some reality and then some ridiculous nonsense and it was perfect for me. I was bifurcate or trifurcate, some of the efforts of these tech bros. I would describe what some of the Google guys or some of the peptide craze of some of the tech bros who, quite frankly, they just look like they're in shitty shape.

I wouldn't want to see them with their shirt off. And then what Bezos is doing. And I would say that Bezos is optimizing for sex. Men hit a midlife crisis. Maybe they worked very hard or didn't have a lot of attention for women. Feel like they're running out of kind of runway. And then take human growth hormone, as I'm pretty sure Bezos does, and creatine, and they're in the gym every day or steroids,

and get enormous, believing that that is part of strength, masculinity, makes them look, makes them more likely to be attractive. to the opposite sex. Did you discern between the two and notice any kind of differences? Yeah, because there's very serious efforts happening at the same time, right? But I think they're very, I don't know, cognizant of mortality in a way that's graspy, as opposed to someone like Steve Jobs, who actually gave that famous speech about mortality being important, you know. And it was such a shift. And I could see, like, you get, you know, rich or master of the universe and you master everything else, but you can't master your body.

And it takes work to do so. And I think you really inspired me when you said, you say this a lot, but I think it's a really cool thing, is biology is undefeated. And I know it's like three words, but it kind of says it all, right? And at the same time, you know, during COVID, you had Elon talking about meat sacks

and how we've got to get rid of meat sacks, which is a reference to your body. It was from a science fiction radio play, which he is very deep into science fiction. And they all are in a way. And, you know, Ellison was really the first to fund those various institutes and everything. And some of them are very good practices, right? Like some of them, the eating and stuff like that.

But it became more an obsession when you got to, like, then you add on online nonsense. A lot of it. Not all of it, but like all these influencers, just the way they influence everything else, political or whatever. giving this advice that was okay, but some of it wasn't. And, you know, you had a Peter Attia or, and I know you like Ann Huberman, who's coming out with a book soon. But to me, a lot of the opposition was spending enormous amounts of time, not on the real point of life, which was to enjoy friends and family, which I think you've really moved towards and talk about in your book, right, the idea of lack of isolation. And then lastly, the online stuff, special around chatbots, is so unhealthy.

And that's another area I've talked about a lot, and so of you. It's the isolation of young men, the deleterious mental effects of a lot of this stuff, which actually have real health implications. In the first episode, which you screened for us last, Thursday night. You're in number two, just so you know, Scott, and I go take a sound. Plot spoiler, he falls asleep. There you go. You interviewed and spent time with Brian Johnson, who's arguably one of the most famous I'm going to live forever. guys who sold this company to PayPal. Don't die. He's very particular about his wording.

Oh, he's not going to die. And it feels like it can be reversed, is trying to cheat, find a cheat code, if you will, spends a great deal of money, tries everything, tracks it pretty meticulously. You have great intuition when it comes to people. After spending time with him, you know, you're raising young men. What was your take on him? Like, how did he get here? what were your observations around him as a person and how that led to him doing this now? Well, you know, I had him at code. You may have been there in 2017. I'm not sure you were there or not.

But one of my last codes, I had a man. He had sold whatever his company, it was a payment type of company. And he made, I think, $800 million, some enormous amount. And he was in the Mormon church. And he had a break with the church, I believe, and then had some depression problems. And he started studying the brain itself. right? And he was the first person to talk about the uses of AI and the possible good and bad elements of AI. And he was talking about brain cognition. So he came and gave, which it was an admirable speech if you go look at it. He looked fit, but normal, I guess, you know, not overboard. And he was talking about the need for, you know, he had depression, very serious 10-year depression. He talked about that. And it was a really, I remember thinking this was a wonderful speech. and very humble, actually. And then he shows up next, as he calls himself, like some, you know,

crazy Patrick Bateman motherfucker, right? Like narcissistic motherfucker. That's his description, what people think of him. And it started to be this, it went from being fit and healthy and having, trying to deal with your depression to something entirely different. And so he decided he was an experiment of one. And as you, I mean, I'm not, All the doctors tell me that's pointless. It's like we now know what keeps Brian Johnson alive longer, but it will not have much application to the general population. And so it was narcissistic, even though he denies it. And at the same time, I find him very poignant in a way. I mean, he looks very shiny. He's always, like he does his, he measures his erections, he measures his poop, he measures everything. He takes all manner of, he was into rapamycin until he wasn't. and very dangerous advice he was giving to people. He was injecting stem cells in ways you possibly shouldn't. And then advocating things and became an influencer,

which he said he had to do to get people's attention, which I was like, that's incredibly irresponsible. And at the same time, some of his stuff is very, like olive oil, great, you know, whole foods, great, broccoli, great. Except he takes it to the extreme. He takes like three hours to eat it or whatever. I forget what he was saying in the video, but he took a long time to eat, which is probably healthy, but it seems like the hours are ticking down for this guy, and he's spending a lot

of time measuring his erections, which I don't know if you do that, Scott. I guess informally, but in different ways, like, am I having one or not? That's my only measurement today, is do they happen? Did he decide to show up today? You know, then he does the stunts of the blood between his father himself and his son, which I find, I don't know, it's just sad. I don't know. What do you think? I feel that to be on the cutting edge of science, so I do PRP. Did you look at PRP? We did. It actually, we're going to do some shoulder-cutter, especially around hair. You know, there's some evidence. And again, everything that I show needs more testing, but they sell it like it's certainty. We talked to a woman who was losing her hair. And she had tried. She had problems with current. Rogain is, I think, one of the more effective things. There's a couple of other things that are getting there. And they'll solve this problem eventually, I would guess. But some people have heart palpitations with Rogain and some of the other stuff. And so she was using PRP in her scalp. There's a lot of clinics, including near your house that have popped up to do that. Interesting. And then wound healing, right? Like a lot of athletes use it for joints and things like that. But again,

needs more real studies and stuff. So I know you thought it was a good thing for you. You felt better, I guess. Yeah, so, but it's, it's, it is now, I would say it's on the conservative end or on the legitimate end at the curve, and that is, I damaged my shoulders. I tore my labrums. And my orthopedic guy is a guy named Dr. Greg Lindor, who's the orthopedic surgeon or the orthopedic for the New York Ranger, is very credible at the hospital for special surgery. And essentially, they draw your blood, spin it, take the platelets, re-inject it into the damaged the damaged joint. So I didn't do it, using it was for aesthetics. I was using it for healing or for pain. The first one took away about 30 to 40 percent of the pain. And then there was a cumulative effect.

I did three more times. And I did pull-ups this morning. And if I'd talk to you a year ago, I would say I will never do a pull-up again. I'm just not capable. So that had real, I haven't done at aesthetics. I know a close friend of ours, who's a co-host on this podcast, a lot. who has great hair, injects it into a scalp, and he has amazing hair. So, PRP, is it, we did a whole thing with this young African-American woman who suddenly lost her hair during COVID. It was some after effect of having COVID. And she really liked it, and we showed it being done, like the platelet spinning. And we're going to put it out of his shoulder. We just didn't have the space to put it in the show. But there's a whole lot of stuff

we filmed like me at a sober rape, which was cringe-worthy, that we couldn't fit in. But, yes, that was really interesting. PRP was interesting. And again, there's so much stuff going on in terms of, like, what you would have had to inject is steroids, right? I had frozen shoulder a million years ago, and that works, but it's not, it doesn't have much efficacy. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff around joints right now,

like all this gels, all this, like, you know, we're going to solve that problem pretty quickly. But it's just, look, you have PRP, and then they take it for everything, right? Like, that's the thing. It's not an everything drug. The hair stuff is mixed with people, just the way, but if you can't use Rogaine, okay, let's try it. And it seems relative,

they used a lot of cold. Did you, I don't know if they did really cold, put it a cold press. What they do is put it on people's hair, a cold press, and then they inject your own blood. And it's sort of, it looks golden. It's quite beautiful in a lot of ways when they do the platelets. And so a lot of these injections like right now, peptides, they come from China. They're not, They're full of like impurities and you could hurt yourself, right, in terms of this without any real benefits. I'd be happy if they studied it in a gold standard test and then let's see, like with GLP ones, which that was happening right now. But, you know, a lot of stuff, it's just it gets overpromised. This is going to solve everything. Like, you know, take you out on it, take you out

to dinner and then tuck you into bed kind of stuff. Well, let's talk about that because that seems to be the craze, it's on the other line of what would be considered, I think, accepted, as you said, double-blind studies. And that is, it feels like I was at an Easter lunch and all the guys were talking about their wolverine mix of peptides. And that's something I have not done, because it feels to me like something that not only the research isn't there, but I don't trust the supply chain. And there's been research that a lot of it coming out of China is contaminated and you really don't know what you're getting. And that's the reason I don't take pills as much as I enjoy experimenting with drugs, I never take anything that's not packaged

or pharmaceutical because you just don't know where you're getting it. What were your thoughts or what are your thoughts on peptides? There's just not enough testing. I mean, I have what I've done unfortunately because I think a lot of people say, well, I feel good. Like I get a lot of, it's interesting because a lot of gay guys were using them, right? Like it was interesting. That's where I get it from. But I was like, okay, but the latest, and including a big anchor, I was like, like the latest test are on 14 people like okay like I'm willing to be open-minded about a lot of this stuff but there's no it's the same thing with red lights like it's just the testing has not been sufficient to give just for the money spent and in the case of peptides you're actually

ingesting it into your body and several people have problems with it and again it reminds you know it's always these catch-all scott you know that like oh this week or this or this week and some of them, like a couple things were like stuck out, GLP1s. And there's now, like, I forget, 12% of Americans are on these things. Well, we're going to have some answers really soon, right? And it's looking like it can help strokes. And real credible medical doctors are looking at these things. And they're not being rejective of them. Well, except for RFK. And interestingly, he's for peptides and against GLP1s, which doesn't make any sense. But yeah, I think, you know, what people tend to do as well. It works for me. I'm like, okay. Like, that's not a, that's not science. The same

with Brian, Brian, and when he's doing the more esoteric things, when he's doing his dragging, like, weights, I don't care. That's fine. I was thinking something you were talking about, like a lot, especially men, they like the data, right? They love the, like, I slept this long. I did that. And it seems like you could spend that time with your kid. Like, I know it sounds dumb, but they, there's a lot of obsession with data and, oh, I did this and this, and this, many and this is my number. And it has nothing to do with good health, if that makes, or peace of mind, which is linked very closely to good health. When women do sort of extreme body stuff, it's called body dysmorphia. When men do it, it's body hacking. But it's the same thing is that

you're not happy with what happens, which is you age. And I think the collapsing, and that's one thing, some of these influencers were good at, the idea of health span versus life. span, and that's well before I said it, that's an important thing. Like, how do we do that would be, that would be, you know, you know, you've talked about the, the amount of time and money that is spent on the last 10 years of someone's life versus, you know, get doing something in advance to fix the situation. So you collapse that, you collapse that, you collapse that Delta. The insight you made that I thought was most puncturing, and I think the most interesting insights are sort of hiding in plain sight. And that is you hear them, and it's, you hear them. And it's,

obvious yet people aren't saying it out loud. You said when I think at some point they asked you full stop, what is the one thing you should do to live longer? And you answered, don't be poor. Say more about that? Well, I wasn't being, you know, some people are like, oh, Kara's like, oh, I'm feeling bad about pink. But poverty is the single, single clearest indicator of longevity because stress around housings, lack of universal health care, lack of health care of many good, lack of good food, lack of sleep. You know, in one point, Brian's like, I'm just telling them, you know, they could at least get some sleep. I'm like, do you know about people that have two jobs, Brian, and are stressed?

Like, they can't get sleep. And so, you know, that usually, and you're also, you know, near a cancer, you often live in a place that is not as healthy from not just a climate point of view, but a, you know, pollution point of view. You're often near cancer clusters. You've always noticed that. It's always near poor people. Right. And so when you're poor, you don't have as many options, including the basics diet, diet, sleep, and exercise. But you also, you cannot avail yourself to universal health care as much. And rich people can try it. It's really hard even for people with some means to get the right health care in this country. And I went to Korea, which is not a perfect country by any means. But at the same time, its longevity numbers are soaring, especially for women. you have to kind of look at what they're doing there, one of which is 100% universal health care. You and I talk about this all the time. I mean, it's a crime that we don't have a basic level of

as much as you complain about the NIH or whatever. Other countries, our peer countries are so much further above us in health care outcomes. We're at the bottom and we spend double, as you noted, $14,000 to $15,000 compared to $6 or $7. What have you, since doing this series, what have you started and stopped dying. I keep trying to break sugar, but I can't. I like sugar. But I don't eat as much sugar. Like, I definitely understand it.

I just don't care. I enjoy it. I understand more about that. Why is it bad? Well, I like sugar in my coffee. I've been trying to get it out of my coffee. I have just one. I never, I'm not an addictive personality, as you know.

I'm not a drug taker or stuff. I think one thing I'm quite aware of is, well, I didn't get enough fiber and protein, but a lot of the men are protein maxing in a ridiculous way. advice from a Peter Attia, for example, it's far too much protein. But I'm meaning more fiber, more protein, more vegetables. Trying to get my protein, I happen to like steak and burgers, so I think to do to you. But I'm trying to get less of it through that, through animal protein and more, like, I've started to really like lentils. I know it sounds crazy, but I figured out ways to cook them that I like. I, you know, like an avocado has enormous amounts of fiber in it, and you don't

realize it. And I like avocados. So I guess. more educated about where I can get that stuff and when during the day, especially stop eating late at night. I've started running again quite a lot. I run about 12 miles a week now. And I like it, and it's both meditative and healthy. And that was through doing VO2 max, which I don't know if you've done that yet, but just your testing on that and trying to get that number up. Yeah, and the interval training is something I hadn't really, I used to run until I like, collapse. And that's really bad. It's just bad. Weight training, I've already done, strength training, balance training, stuff like that is not too much, but strength training is probably the number one thing for people who are going to be old at some point. I'm trying to think, sleep. I still haven't cracked that. I have small children, so it's not happening. But, you know, you should get, you don't need, you don't need to obsessively think about sleep, but it's important to get, you know, seven hours of sleep a night. If there was going to be a public policy change that would be most accretive to health or the health of the U.S. populace,

distinct of the very wealthy, what would your advice be on that policy? Universal health care, one. So three things, universal health care for everybody. And then the rich can buy more. They always do, right? They always get the juicy bits. But universal health care, probably a $25 minimum wage so people can start to have choices. As you and I talk about this a lot, just more money gives you more choices.

and it's a healthier population when you have more, you know, when people have a standard of living that's not, the amount of, the amount of stress of being homeless or near homeless is really quite vast, you know, and combined with lack of health care, we're surprised at these mental health outcomes. I would probably say the third thing would be real focus on things like mRNA technology and real funding of that along with GLP1s, like those. to me, the only thing we agree with RFK on is the processed food industrial complex, which I call the diabetic industrial complex. I think we have to really push back on that. So probably real funding for those two things. And gene editing and the one story of the woman, and she was there at the premier who has sickle cell anemia, and she'll never be cured of it. She'll probably die of it in her 50s after great amounts of pain when, some of these diseases are probably solvable within the next.

I mean, right now they kind of are, but the cost is so massive that they don't get that. That's a bigger, longer-term problem. We'll be right back after a quick break. Support for the show comes from LinkedIn. It's a shame when the best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong audience. Like, imagine running an ad for cataract surgery on Saturday morning cartoons or running a promo for this show on a video about Roblox or something. No offense to our Gen Alpha listeners, but that would be a waste of anyone's ad budget.

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checkout. That way, you can deliver standout experience and build a business people will want to come back to. Earned commission on hotels, cruises, and experiences turning travel planning into real income. Lots of successful advisors start by booking friends and family and grow their business from there. Become a fora advisor today at foratra travel.com slash prop G. That's F-O-R-A travel.com slash prop G. And make sure you tell them we sent you, Fortravel.com slash prop G. I'm curious to see how you responded to this thesis, but just as I would categorize something else in what a peptides. It may have real benefits, but it's become so trendy that there's dangers of its overuse. And I would argue that the TikTok version of peptides is actually therapy.

And let me do my land acknowledgement. I think a lot of people can benefit from therapy. I think it's very good for some people. But I think there's essentially a notion now that especially when people are talking about young men, that they just need to get therapy and everybody needs to work on themselves, as opposed to just trying to figure out a way to get a job and find relationships. Curious if you looked at all about what I'll call it this surge, almost like it's a prerequisite, like having a certain amount of protein or relationships or sunlight, people are starting to stitch in, well, you have to have therapy. Any thoughts on what I would refer to as this cult of

therapy? I know you have that issue. Look, I'm a whatever. That's not the only issue. And you should seek therapy. There you go. I think more importantly, and I think the science really bears this out, very clearly, is not therapy as much as social interaction, right?

It's the number one health, besides not being poor and being rich slash being rich, the number one thing that came through was social connections. And the negative effects of an AI chat bot, et cetera. Isolation and we have lot, COVID really did a number on us in that regard. But we know, whether it's churches, whether it's sports, whether it's whatever it happens to be, friendships. Also, doing things with in-office work, talking to people, friction, friction with human beings. I think if I just say the number one thing, I mean, diet, sleep, and exercise, yes, but without the social interaction, none of it matters, really. And from,

from, from, in terms of the scientific lengths between that and health, it's, it's, you know, I interviewed the head of the Harvard Happiness study. It sounds much therapy. And again, and people should use it if they think that's important for them. But it is social interactions, possibly the most important health intervention we could have. And I went to a thing in Brooklyn, which I really loved, which was a bunch of young people had organized themselves around playing games. So there's friction in games, right?

All kinds of games. I think there was mahjong there. There was poker. All manner of games, checkers. And they took this sort of basement area in a Brooklyn food hall. And they played games all night. And I brought a neuroscientist with me to explain what was happening to the people there. And they put away their phones and they socialized.

And I'm sure there were a million hookups, you know, but it was great. And everybody was happy. I know it's that you could feel the happiness. Same thing with this group. And I think it's called Little Time or something with Time in it. They put you together with six people that you've never met and you go bowling or just for pizza and bowling or skating or something like that. And it's not a sexual thing. It's people, like I, there was an older woman there. There was a young guy who was just, you know, he was at Harvard and he was lonely.

And it was, I have to say, wonderful. I was nervous because I'm like, I don't want to, you know, I'm as outgoing as I am. I'm not, right? I think you would not like this. But I have to say, I enjoyed it. People I didn't know. I'm not going to see again. And it was lovely. It was, And again, I did this the other night. You make fun of me, but I mean, I bought these mahjong lessons, and I invited 16 people who really didn't know each other. My friends of mine, they know me. And to a person, they were like, that was great. And I was like, you have no idea.

You were touching the mahjong tiles. There's tactile. There's mind brain plasticity. So every single study show, the Harvard half-fini studies, the famous one, but shows the people that live longer are people who are social or. active and not staring. You can stare at a phone a little bit, but that's a real, what they're doing to us with these AI chatbots is really problematic, as far as I'm concerned, especially young people, but everybody. Curious about the distribution or just, you've, obviously you were journalists, you know, I would argue the most iconic tech journalists with Washington Post, Wall Street Journal,

New York Times, then you got into podcasting, you've written several books, and now you're doing TV. And I always make fun of TV that it's, you know, it's dying. And some of that is my insecurity because I've never had a successful series. But why did you decide to do, I mean, let's be honest, CNN is struggling. Broadcast linear TV is struggling. You are in a medium podcasting that is growing. Why did you choose to do TV? And I'd also just, on a more meta level, how would you compare the health of the different mediums? Because you're kind of a multi, you're, to a certainly an example of, I think, where media is going, and that is someone who is talented then exploits a bunch of mediums to create a flywheel. But let's start there. Why did you

choose, why did you choose linear TV? Why did you just answer the flywheel? There you go. And why did you choose CNN? Well, I was, I had a contributor contract with them. I would do it with whoever. What I did is I went around and met production companies and I was going to raise the money myself and possibly do it on YouTube, possibly do it wherever. And I was, you know, I mentioned to CNN and they paid for the whole thing, which one of the things I don't know is how to do video, right? And so I learned. And I feel like I kind of figured it out. Like that was one area, like on their dime to try it out. And by the way, beautifully photographed stuff I couldn't do. And I think worthwhile beautifully photographed actually. I don't think of it as a broadcast property.

We've cut it up into pieces, lots of shoulder content on the CNN app on, it will be on streaming. I'm sure bits of it are going to get on YouTube and social media and lots of social media around this. And so I don't see it as a TV show. I see it as a video product that will help people that will sort of push up against the aggressive and often incorrect stuff that's out there about health. And so to me I saw a real lane, like, okay,

there's all these sort of wellness grifters. What if I was the anti-grifter in wellness? And people are like, the reaction's been quite fascinating. People are like, oh, finally, like for the rest of us kind of stuff. And so I don't see it as a CNN. You could have done it at MS. I could have done it at one of the networks. And obviously the audiences are much smaller over time.

But I see it as I learned how to do this. And now I know. And I think it does in some way when you have a whole package of them together, you really can tell a story that you can't tell in a shorter media. But probably, you know, you could easily do this on YouTube and continue it in a way. But, you know, we're doing video now, and it's important to our things. So are we not doing a television show with Pivot? Are we not?

We are. And so I don't, like, back in the day, there was, Mushin Post put out, had a new media organization. They put it in Virginia because of union issues, right? But it was always the new media group and the old media group, you know, which was the newspaper. And I was like, why? Like, it's all media, that kind of stuff. And that's how I look at it. I don't think it like a TV show at all,

although it's fine if it is, you know, and then you get a certain population. And then you reach to others. I just, I don't think you have to, I don't buy into it's over for video, for sure. It's not. I just think, what's the difference? And I learned how to do it.

And now I know. And if it does well, I also, I'm probably could do a book on it. I could do an event. Today I did a podcast with Eric Topal, who's not in the thing. And then I did a podcast today with Katie Couric, who was very early to online expressions around cancer around her husband's death. And my brother, who's in the show, and Jen LaRocca, who's in the show, who sort of blows up a lot of the wellness grifters. And so I did a podcast on it.

So now I've got more content for that. It just, I see it as a flywheel. You know that. That's how you look at everything, right? I mean, I think you do. Talk about it to the lens of being a mom of young children. What do you see as non-negotiable or what do you make an effort to inject or take out of their lives in terms of health of children? Well, not as much.

You know, I was pretty lucky because my older kids kind of miss the demented part of social media, right? It wasn't quite. It was like Snapchat and it was pretty harmless. And they didn't get sucked into a little bit at the end, Instagram, but they definitely didn't like it. Your kids are at the dead middle of that, your kid's age, right? And they also, COVID, you know, they were old enough to be able to handle social media during COVID, which I think was bad for younger kids. I suspect I, you know, my older kids just watch YouTube as TV, so I don't find that to be particularly problematic. I don't find them obsessively online.

I think they use it for music and Alex loves watching history stuff videos, and that's great. For my young kids, you know, definitely will not allow them to be on social media. I use it to watch, you know, Frozen or K-pop Demon Hunters over and over again. But that's just that's just that. I think probably I would not, I think a lot about their eating habits now, just the way we do with sunscreen. Like, if you remember, we never use sunscreen. Well, now everybody uses sunscreen. So I'm thinking the same thing with food.

Like, if I can get them, like, visiting Korean kids, what they eat at lunch. is really something, it's mind-blowing how healthy they eat them. And they eat snacks in Korea. It's just that they have a base for eating that is very healthy to start with so they're aware and they've been nutritious in the school. So I should probably start more on the vegetables with my kids because they call them revengibles, which is not good. They have a bad relationship with vegetables, my kids. The other thing is time spent with the kids. And that's like not staring at a phone, right? That's, I think, something that's hard for all adults to deal with, not looking at the phone when we're around our kids and sort of pattern mapping that. But it's really, I mean, look, it's really hard, as you know, to do so because it's addictive and it's interesting and we like news. And so I try to spend real time with the kids without the phone around a lot more than I was. Talk about your own experience with social media and mental health.

Well, I got off Twitter early and urged you to do so, as I recall. I think it's deleterious. I'm still on threads. What? You're rewriting history. I got happy before you. Anyway, I don't like social media. You're right.

The way I use social media now is to broadcast our stuff, like the different stuff I do and we do, which I think is fine. It's a marketing vehicle. I don't go on Twitter, though, because every time I go there, I'm a cunt. So I don't like that. And I forget, half of them like you and half of them don't. You're a much more. I literally, I haven't been on since the World Cup. I did an analysis.

The two or three of the weekends where I felt really down, it was inspired by something someone said about me on Twitter. So I'm like, I don't need that shit. I think you came to the same conclusion. Yeah, you understood it pretty quickly. Also, I had that owner attacking me personally, and he attacked you too. And then he liked you, whatever.

He's whatever. He needs to get it. offline very clearly. I use threads now pretty much. I don't, I use Instagram again for marketing. I like to watch food videos and hardware videos and it's fine. I don't find anything right. It's very soothing. I read a lot of news online because I love news and I always looks. I would have had a newspaper on my face before. So it's just the same difference as far as I can see. And I get a more, a wider range of news actually. I think it's better because I, hear from people I wasn't going to hear from, especially recommended. You recommend a lot of stuff

I end up reading. So friends recommending things is a good thing. But I try to stay off of the, I don't do the dunking thing less and less every single day. I've stopped that too. Yeah. What you do, I think, is really healthy, actually. I think about it, this calmed me. What is the other? This made me. I found peace in this. Yeah, thanks to take my bread pleasure down and make me feel better about the world. I love when you do that. I think it's really good for you, and I think it's good for showing people stuff like that. We'll be right back. We've all been there.

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WestJet, where your story takes off. We're back with more from Karras Swisher. I want to segue while we have you, because I imagine there's a small portion of my audience here, a Profitter U.S. and has been as exposed to Caroushwisher. I want to talk to you a little bit about there. There's some big news in tech, and that is meta, and this blew me away.

I don't know if you saw this coming. Meta is projected to surpass Google this year to become the world's leading digital advertising business, according to projections by e-marketer. They estimate that meta will surpass Google and net ad revenue this year, reaching over $243 billion, a quarter of a trillion dollars, edging pass, Google.

And Google's U.S. search ad market share is expected to fall below 50% this year amid increased competition. And meta's boost is thanks mostly to Reels' AI recommendation system, which boosted watchtime by more than 30% during the most recent quarter. And Reels is on track to make over $50 billion. Give us your thoughts. It really is kind of a pre-seminal moment, right? there's a new king. Your thoughts?

Well, I think there are two kings, right? Like, it's not as if Google's, you know, we've known for a long time that between Google and Facebook, they've sucked up the entire ad market, right? And the attention market, more importantly. And I do think one of the things Facebook does well, and Google never did was they understand entertainment or what entertainment has become. And Google, remember when Google did its circle thing? It was when tried to do social media. It was so bad. It's because the people there aren't. social. Like, they don't understand it or use it. You know, I was like, wow, these are the least sociable people making social media. And the one thing Mark Zuckerberg does get right when he has a great product is he was very smart to see Instagram, you know, early and take advantage of it. And then he didn't just buy Instagram. He did stuff with it, right? He did understand a good product. And I think Threads is a great product as much as I dislike Mark Zuckerberg as a leader. I think they make a nice product. It feels safe. It feels fun. It's bigger than X now.

It's bigger than X now. It's bigger than X because it's actually a nice product, right? Some of it, they're going to have problems everywhere you go. And Instagram, the same thing. Really wonderful, useful product in a lot of ways. And again, lots of abuses. I get it. But overall, it's a pretty good product.

And so I think he really does understand, including from TikTok, the challenge. That was the real challenge he had was TikTok. And it seems like TikTok is not quite as relative. I mean, it's still big. but he's managed to figure that. He's good at figuring other people's businesses out and almost like Bill Gates, right? Except I think he does better products

than Bill Gates ever did with Windows, you know. I think they voiced his subpar products on people. And I think Mark creates really quite good products, often by copying. So it makes sense that he will own the advertising market and Google will own less of it because what's Google's advantage except that AI is where Google will have the advantage, right, in terms of, and Mark will too,

but it will help his ad business become more efficient, right? That's one thing. You talked about that super early when I wasn't even thinking about it. You really nailed that. I think he's, I think he's a very good product person in many ways, sometimes not always. Like the phone was stupid. He's going back into it and you made a very good case as to why. Oh, that was Amazon, excuse me. I still don't get the glasses thing or the metaver. He made a huge, like he lost $70 billion on the Metaverse, so it's not that genius. But I think he gets where it's going.

I'm surprised they haven't bought a media company. That's the one thing I'm kind of fascinated, why they haven't. Maybe they don't need to. See, I don't know these people you do. I can read about them and I have opinions on them, but I don't know them. You know all of them, or nearly all of them,

personally and have had relationships that span decades. If there was one or two people you think these are the people we would like to kind of have in charge or have outsized roles because they do, in your view, have a very strong sense of patriotism or a sense for the well-being of, you know, trying to present a tragedy of the commons. And then on the other end, who do you think is, I hate these the ones most dangerous, but who you have the least confidence in? Who would those people be? You know, Mark Cuban is clearly the one I think is, or such an Adela. You know, I don't want any of them in charge, right? I mean, I like the stuff they do in previous worlds, Tim Cook, but he seems to have shifted in a weird way. You know, all the adults, I guess, Reed Hastings, those are the kind of people, I think, make good products and are not, and have a sense of their civic duty, I guess. And, you know, Each of them has an interesting thing. I mean, Mark Cuban's the one who's come the furthest. Like, he was, I don't know if you ever met him.

He was such a jerk. He was such a, like, bro. But he kind of, and the stuff he's working on now around, it just, he looks is very sensible. And he doesn't, by the way, he talks, he talks to the Trump people. He'll talk to Eli. Like, he's not like, he just wants the best outcome. It seems like to me. Right.

But he also is, there's a line, right? Like, there's also like a no fucking way. you're saying that, sir. So I like that. And he'll go and wait and argue with him. So I think I like him the most personally. I think probably Zuckerberg, because I think he's going to have the most impact.

You know, I would say Souda Pichai, who I happen to like personally. But, you know, and they have YouTube, right? Between YouTube and Instagram slash Facebook, that's kind of the game, right? That's the entire game. And TikTok to the side. I've never liked Bezos ever.

I thought he was an obnoxious and tough guy, masking it with his dumb laugh. But I've always thought he was sort of take any advantage he could kind of person. I don't think he has as much impact, I guess. He has impact on, well, now I don't think he even has that at the Washington Post. I don't think he has as much impact. And, of course, you know, you have to sort of watch what Larry Ellison's going to do with his ownership of dying media properties.

That's the thing. They're all dying, right? So you wonder how much impact he'll have. But I would say Zuckerberg's the most dangerous if I had to pick, even though Teal is really quite dastardly in many ways. Probably Mark in terms of pure power and lack of thoughtfulness, I think, and he can't be displaced and he's certain of everything. And I don't mean to say he's the worst person among them,

but the one with the most power, with the most carelessness about his power. And I would say Cuban probably. But he doesn't control things that are huge, right? He doesn't really. I mean, he doesn't. I wish he'd run for president. That would be great.

There's sort of this march of the tech leader where they start off. Everyone hopes they're different. And people have big hopes for them. They manage their press really well. A lot of earnest statements about the day. of the technology and, you know, well, I don't have any ownership in this company, sir.

And then slowly but surely, they turn into a bond villain. And I would argue the fastest march down that path from He Will Save Us to, oh, no, he's just like everyone else may be worse, is Sam Altman. It feels like the brand 180 there has happened faster. You know, Sam, what are your thoughts on Sam's character and his leadership style? You know, I've met him when he was 19. You know, he's always been, see, unfortunately for me, they're like, oh, he lies. I'm like, uh-huh, they all do. They all do. Like, it's not like I find that particularly. I don't like to make them into saviors either because I never thought he was a savior. So I come from a more cynical point of view. It's like, you're kidding me. He lies to get what he wants. Well, wow, that's pretty much Larry Ellison and Marks, like every one of them, right? Like, so I guess I never saw him as a savior. or the good person. And, you know, I would make fun every time he'd say,

we're here to save cancer. And he's actually in this documentary where I challenge him on this. I was like, you're here to take our things, I think. I believe that's what's happening. So probably, you know, we've talked about whether that was Google or Netscape,

and it's looking like Netscape. I think you got that 100% right. But here's the bigger issue. I don't want any of them to be the savior. I don't think our business leaders should be our saviors. I think collectively we should, right? Because a group of people with unlimited power, unlimited money, and growing money,

is with no ability to displace them, is a lot worse than a Ted Cruz, right? You can displace him. It's hard. But he's elected. So I just find it, I find them, I don't want seven to ten people in charge of everything, including getting back to this thing, health. I don't want them to make the decisions. I'd like all of us to be able to via our elected officials.

And, you know, they've really, the whole of tech has painted itself as bond villains now in this administration. And now that Trump is clearly on the, some something's going on, as we've talked about cognitively with him, they've backed the wrong horse here, it looks like. Or maybe they didn't. They got what they wanted and they got their money. And now they'll abandon him. That's my guess. They'll back, they'll back Vance because he's. their guy. Just as we wrap up here, assuming, unfortunately, that you don't live forever, but you have several more decades in you. I'm going to live longer than you. I don't doubt that. I want to speak at your funeral. I want to crutch up. I want to crutch up at your funeral and have some

words. Oh, it's going to be a party. I know what drugs are going to be there. I know what music I'm going to play. Tom Petty. I put it in my will. Oh, yeah. Tom Petty's, even the losers get lucky sometimes. And also the theme song from the Mission. I think it's the most beautiful song. Oh, that movie is great. It's a beautiful movie. I love that movie. That's Robert De Niro and Jeremy, right?

And Liam Neeson. Fast forward 10 years from now, what boxes, I was just going to say professionally, but I'll go professionally and personally, what boxes are left for you to check? Where do you want to be in 10 years having looked back? And is there any boxes that are unchecked for you? No, actually. You know, one of the reasons I do think sometimes is, I get a lot of attention from other reports.

You know what I mean, as do you from other academics, I'm assuming. Yeah, not as much as you. You're, I will say this. You are polarizing, but everyone respects you, respect slash fears you. I'm more, you know, I'm more of like an interesting play thing that will probably just fade under the couch someday. You are seen as singular. One of the people who don't like, does like me very much text to me and they're like, oh, you did it again.

Like, how did you do it? It's really good. It's a really good show. Like, I wanted to see if I could make a really good TV show. And I did, like I have. This is good. I'll grant you that. It's a good show.

I got to tell you, it gets better. It really, by the end, you're going to weep. You're going to weep. And it has a story, and that's what's important. That was the critical importance of journey. No, I just, I was trying to think, what do I want to mix? I don't like writing books. You love writing books.

I don't love it. It's not even that I love it. It's that it's speaking of health and longevity. My fear, I do a lot physically. And if I get taken down early, it'll be some genetic time bomb that I had no control over. But the things I can control, I control the 99th percent. The woman in the bathroom with Molly is how I see it happening. As far as, as, hey, don't rag on my hobbies.

Everybody needs hobbies. The woman in the bathroom in Touloum with Molly, seems to me. Is that a bad idea? I'll be getting a call. What could go wrong? What could go wrong? That's why I stay friends with Prie Pira. I call him and say, hey, Preet, need your help.

callbacks asap. But I managed that stuff really well, but the thing I'm most fearful of personally is dementia. And I don't want to say I have signs of it, but I just feel like I'm kind of classic ground zero for it. And I find that writing, well, if you do a lot of research, what they find is staying, you know, whether it's doing crossword puzzles, mahjong, things we have to create nuance and organization. And writing books, I don't know about for you, writing books is the hardest thing I do. to flip open your computer and say, what am I going to say about Google that hasn't been said a million times and not make it just an reheated magazine article, create a narrative art, and have something that someone will pay 20 or 25 bucks for, it's the hardest thing, at least that I do. And I've set out to say, I'm like, I'm going to do one of these every 18 months until I die, or until a publisher's no longer willing to publish them. So for me, it's, it is literally, it's literally health. Is there anything you would just, you would just love to accomplish that, you know, is it, do you want to do a movie? Do you want to do. No, I'm actually in the Devil Wers Prada, too. So no, I've done that.

I love, I know, it was fun. It was super fun. I, like, saying yes to stuff like that. I know it sounds dumb. I don't do it for like the hanging. I just was fun. I just didn't know. I was fascinated being on a movie set. That was interesting to me. I don't think I want to do it a lot. No. What about personally? In 10 years, where would you like to be? You're in your lazy boy. I'm not going to be working. I'm not working in 10, like, like, some 60. You think you'll retire. I will retire by 74 at the latest. At the latest, I think I'll retire. So you're not one of these people that I'll work the rest of my life? No, I'm going to retire. I'm going to learn. I'm going to, I like to, you know, I love history.

Like I was telling Amanda the other day, this is my wife. When I was in my 20s, there used to be this free university. Do you remember that? Do you remember free university? You used to take courses. You met other young people doing it. It was a version of doing it if you didn't go to bar. And I took two courses that I loved. One was learning about wine and I don't drink, but I wanted to understand it, right? And the other was an art history class, and I just never took any. And for the first time, I was like, oh, I really did appreciate. And I forgot and, of course, everything I learned.

But, like, college was lost on me because I wanted to rush to work. I love working, right? And I would like to go to college again. I know it sounds crazy. Back to school. Back to school. I know I'm like Rodney Dangerfield. Back to school, the L-word version. Yes, that was such a good movie. Anybody wants to enjoy themselves, watch Rodney Dangerfield in that movie. I just, I'm going to just learn things and spend times with my young kids because they'll be in their teens and let Amanda work her ass off, you know, like. I'm going to call bullshit. I can never see you staying out of the game. I'm not. Maybe I'll be on charity boards or boards of something and irritate people, but I think.

I think I'm, you know, one of the things, someone said, how do you think your career? I said, I think I've planned my career perfectly. Like, actually, there's not a lot more I can, I guess, writing a fiction thing. I don't really want to write a fiction thing. I can't think of anything I want to make that anymore. And I think this, I think making podcasts with you, I find it incredibly satisfying. And then I will stop. I always said this about myself. Someday, you're never going to hear from me again. Well, we know that's true. We just don't know. We just don't know the timeline on that. No, but I'll be like at a place up in Maine where I just sit and read or whatever. And I'll be perfectly satisfied to it. You'd be shocked how satisfied I will be doing that. I'm not buying it. Anyways, in addition to being an iconic tech journalist, mother of four, and author of several books, a wonderful friend and business partner, Kara Swisher now has a new series called Caras Swisher wants to Live Forever,

which is on CNN on Saturday, right after. Bill Maher, Kare Swisher. Thanks for your time today. Thank you. And thank you for your friendship, Scott. That's one of the things that's kept me young and pretty. This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Laura Jenaer. Cammy Rieke is our social producer. Bianca Rosario Ramirez is our video editor. And Drew Burroughs is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G pod from PropG Media. The Madamy Holmes Bike for Brain Health supporting Baycrest returns on May 31st for its fifth anniversary with a new start and finish at the Aga Khan Museum. Join thousands of cyclists as we take over the DVP and Gardner Expressway in support of dementia research and brain health.

Riders of all abilities are welcome and both regular bikes and e-bikes can participate. Bring your friends, family, or corporate team, and make an impact. Register today at bikeforbrainhealth.ca. When a country's productivity cycle is broken, people feel it in their paychecks, their communities, their futures. What does this mean for individuals, communities, and businesses across the country? Join business leaders, policymakers, and influencers for CGs' national series on the Canadian Standard of Living, productivity, and innovation. Learn what's driving Canada's productivity decline and discover actionable solutions to reverse it.