The Psychology of your 20s - 102. Queer identity in our 20s ft. Claud Bailey

Episode Date: June 27, 2023

This week we sit down for an intimate conversation with the incredible Claud Bailey, a queer film director and queer youth advocate based in Sydney, Australia to discuss what our gender and sexuality means for our 20s. We dive into the meaning of community, gender expression, the beauty of queerness and how to navigate coming of age as a queer person in the 21st century, along with the role of being a responsible and compassionate ally. Alongside this we also explore the power of rituals, the relationship between pleasure and pain and the role of beauty in enjoying our lives to the fullest. Listen now to hear more from our wonderful guest!  Follow Claud: https://www.instagram.com/ /?hl=en Wear It Purple: https://www.wearitpurple.org/  The Trevor Project: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year.

It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to another episode. New listeners, all listeners, wherever you're. are in the world. I am so glad that you have joined us for an episode that I am so very excited about.

It's been a long time coming. It's been in the works for a while. I'm bringing on a beautiful guest, a beautiful friend to talk about things like identity, rituals, creative, inspiration, everything and anything in between. Without further ado, I'd love for you to introduce yourself. Hello. Hello. Hi. Hi. Um, nice. to meet you all. Yeah. Big fan. Oh, you're a big fan. Big fan. Big fan of the audience. Big, big, big fan. So who are you? That's a good question. Yeah. Who am I? No, my name is Claude Bailey. My pronouns are they, them, they and them. I'm a filmmaker and more recently have started doing a lot of work in queer youth, queer youth art projects, workshops,

development programs. I don't really know how to sum it up, but I am a big advocate for giving queer youth opportunities to express themselves. And a lot of my filmmaking work, because I write, direct and produce is, you know, centering queer youth as well. I just, I love them. They're the future. They are. They are the future. You did an amazing film recently, didn't you? I did. Can you talk about it a little bit? I feel like people would love to hear about it. Yeah, I made a film called Right Here. It premiered at Sydney Film Festival, which was... Yeha! Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah! Well, Sydney Film Festival!

No, when I got the email, I screamed in the street. It was a really gorgeous moment, and I called my best friend and I was like, it happened, it happened. Were you crying? I did cry. I would be crying. Yeah, it was, I always went to that festival when I was much younger and wanted to be a filmmaker, so then getting to have my film there was a really big moment. But that film was my fifth short film and my last. I think. Really?

Yeah, I'm done with short films. Anyway, but it was about a young non-binary person. They came out to their parents and their birthday. It didn't go very well. You don't really see that. And then they materialize at their future self's birthday party and they see the life they're going to have and the community they're going to have

because I think a really big thing is that when you're a teenager or a kid, queer youth generally, you don't have any control over your environment. You don't have any control over your school, over your family. And so I wanted to give young people some tangible hope that's like, if right now your environment is not it, it's coming. I promise you, because it happened for me, and it happened for so many queer folk around me,

so it's coming. You just got to, like, unfortunately, hold tight because it's all yours. And that's what the film's about. Oh my God, that's an amazing message. Yeah. That is beautiful. And we're going to bring it to schools all around Australia this year. I'm working with Wear It Purple, which is a non-for-profit queer youth organization,

and we're going to try and get it to young people all around to be like, here, have this little nugget of joy. Yeah. As someone who, like, obviously we both grew up in Australia, I don't think there was any queer representation in any of my curriculum growing up. None at all. Oh, not in curriculum. No way. In any facet, like, you know, and I went to a pretty progressive school, and even within that environment, it was like, this isn't really spoken about.

And it's not something that was like, I think people had access to or were able to be educated on, which is so bizarre to me because I'm like it does make up such an amazing vibrant part of our society. It's just part of everyday life for so many people, even people who aren't queer. So I'm really excited that you're able to do that. Well, that's what's very interesting is that I'm working with a lot of queer youth right now, and they have a lot more access to online spaces and representation, but what I'm finding is that even though they have all this access, they have the terminology, they have the language, they know it's out there,

they still, though, cannot touch it. It's beyond their grasps. And at a lot of schools, there's the QSA, the Queer Straight Alliance, and different pride groups, and there's those spaces, but it's still out of grasp, it's still not in reach. And so I think it's still extremely important. Yeah. That's actually a really good point because I do feel like with the rise of social media and things like that,

which we talk about quite a bit on the podcast and how it's changed our dynamics with other people and our relationships to ourselves. The fact that you're like, that still isn't something that's like tangible for them. But I want to talk about this a little bit more like how you talked about how your film the concept of your film was giving that hope to queer youth. Was that something that you drew a lot from your personal experience? How much of that was really like thinking about your past and thinking about how you came to really like embrace and show people your identity?

Yeah, well, I went to a Catholic or girls school. Oh, wow. Yeah. Positive. Yeah. And I was in the closet, but I didn't even know I was in the closet. Like I was in Narnia and I was living there. And, like, I was in love with my best friend in high school, but I didn't, that didn't equate to me being queer.

I was just like, oh. I love her. I love her, but I'm not a lesbian. Yeah. And I don't identify as a lesbian now. Anyway. Interesting. But I think that I didn't even have any of the tools to start to understand who I was or how I identified.

That wasn't, that wasn't around me whatsoever. we were all boy crazy and yeah it just that again that's what's so interesting about young people now is that they do have the access to understand what the queer world is like and what is out there but they don't they can't grasp but i didn't even know i had no idea so i think back to my younger self and i have so much love for them i've so much love because not that i had a really great upbringing and I had a really gorgeous time in high school but I just never really felt like myself. I never felt comfortable in my skin. I never really like I never had any high school boyfriends and everyone did and I just thought that I was broken and all the sexual experiences

that I had were never fulfilling. Yeah. So I always just thought oh something's wrong with me and so one thing, like I always say that queerness is the most beautiful thing about my life. It really is. In every facet, like, we'll probably go into it. But I just, I didn't even know. And so when I started, when I did come out and then started to enter community, I was like, whoa. I just, I was blind. Now I can see. Like, it's, it's, it was life changing. That sounds like a genuinely, incredibly inlining experience. And one that I think that a lot of us don't really get, right, like coming to terms with some part of our identity that has been concealed for some time, even people who are listening to this who may not identify as queer, that's not something that happens all of the time.

But I do just want to, like, take a step back here and, you know, you talked about how your identity has kind of shifted from your adolescence, even your childhood maybe, to, like, your adulthood. But, like, how would you define it now? Or how would you define it now? How would you define it? find your queer identity or the broader queer identity in general? Big question. We can, we can, we can, we can, we can, take it in bite-sized chunks. I just kind of want to know like that, you know, like how you said you were in the closet and you didn't even know it.

Yeah. And now you're this amazing individual who is able to impact young people's lives with your message, with your stories. Like, what was the kind of journey from that place when you're in high school to the place you are now? I think the biggest part of it was visibility. I only really understood these things within me when I saw it in others. That was, and also experience.

Like, I don't know, I kind of branched into two sections, like sexuality and gender, because they are completely different. And I think a lot of people bunch gender and sexuality together because it's under the LGBTQIA plus, you know, header. Yeah. But they're such different, and also they intercross a lot as well. But for me, it was very separate. I realized I was gay or queer first, and that was this slow experience through relationships

and through having, like, I remember when I had my first crush outside of the person I loved in high school, it was very beautiful because I was like, oh, this wasn't just a one-time thing. This is actually something inside of me, and it took a while to, walk that path because I had never done it before. I didn't know anyone. I felt like that one I did kind of alone and it was very slow and it also took a lot of me breaking down so many barriers that I had about me being broken. Yeah. That came from... Which is such a hard experience to think if you're like it kind of hurts me to think that you ever thought of yourself that way. I thought of myself that way for such a long time on the other side of that was the most liberating and healing thing.

And that's why I say queerness is one of the most gorgeous things about my life because it was like, oh, these things, yeah, yeah, they were not working for you for many different reasons. Let's give you another avenue to explore yourself. And through that, I was able to feel lovable. And it was very relationship-based. But gender has been the most personal thing to me. And it was through, I guess, another relationship. I met someone who became one of my best friends who was trans, is trans,

and I saw in them or him what I always felt inside of me. And that's why I say visibility. I saw it and I went, hey, I really feel this thing. And I can't really describe it, but I just feel it. And then I started asking friends to use they, them again, because I had met other non-binary people and it just felt. right. It didn't really make sense. I didn't understand it, but it just felt right. And then people started using they, them. And it's not even about the words, to be honest.

It's just about a feeling. What do you mean? It's not about the words, because I feel like, and I just feel like this is such an interesting thing, because I think when we think about the political space and whatever and how politics and personal opinion and public opinion interacts with our lives, like a big discussion is around like the use of pronouns. That's like the most exhausting part of all of it is. that our identity as queer or trans people is political now and it's fucked. Am I allowed to swear? Yeah, it is fucked because you know what?

I feel like only like the people who are oppressed, their lives become political. It's true. It sucks. Men's lives are not political as much as like, you know, a heterosis man might want to say that like, oh, my life is political because I could be cancelled. That's not a political thing the same way that like abortion is a political. thing or like, you know, access to curriculum or schools if you're someone who is transgender or non-binary is a fucking political thing these days. That's why I say that if I had it my way, I would not talk about my gender experience with anyone because I don't have words for it still.

It is always been based in feeling and I can't really summarize it. And what sucks is that pronouns are such an external thing. People can misgender you every single day. People say you're coming out every single day. And that is exhausting. And I wish I could, I just always define my gender as like a floating bob in the ether, which makes cis people go, what the fuck I'm not about? But it's kind of a beautiful metaphor. I just, I don't feel like man, I don't feel like women, I just want to exist and not be

seen as either, blah, blah, blah. But I will talk about it because visibility is what granted me to feel like myself. So I will do this. So hopefully someone can. listen and go, oh, I feel that within me as well, because that is the most beautiful gift we can give each other, is that feeling of coming home to yourself. So I will do it because I want others to feel this way, but it's exhausting. It's the most personal thing. Like, just imagine any part of your identity that is like inside of you that you don't have words for it. It's like a little locked

box. Having to find words for it and be able to, you know, talk about it on panels and make work about it, it's a lot. And I don't, I don't hate it. I have found a way to love it because now I am finding ways to give other young people the opportunity to make work about it and, and create, have expression with it all. But it's a really confusing thing. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I can only imagine. And it's actually really interesting for me to hear and be like, I'm asking you these questions right now and the fact that you've like learned to love this thing. But then I think about my own experience, like no one's ever questioned my identity that way.

We kind of have it easy. Like I never have to explain that because it falls into a very like easy box for people to understand. And I really do respect what you're saying about how it's like it comes with a lot of almost emotional burden. Would you say that's the right word for it? Emotional labor. Emotional labor. Yeah. but yet you still feel this duty to do it.

I think what's really difficult is that I people, so for example, someone on the street, your family member, anyone asks you these questions about your transness, your queerness. And for them, it's just another chat, another discussion, another thing they're curious about. It's a dinner table conversation. For you, it is the most personal and sacred part. And these conversations, some, are really beautiful and healing and gorgeous and I don't think they shouldn't happen. That's how we bridge understanding. But there is a lot of times that there is no acknowledgement of how much

emotional labour the person from the marginalised group has to do because they're experiencing so much all the time. They're experiencing people saying horrible things on Instagram or saying things on the street that this isn't just another dinner table conversations, is them having to like, you know, pull out that drawer and bring out their palm cards that they've had to work at how to talk about these things. It's, and it's just, it is so personal. And I think it's, it's something that I always like to say to you, it's a dinner table conversation. To me, it's my heart. Yeah. And I guess that kind of links back with what we were talking about how it's become quite politicized in a way that very few other elements of our identity, other than like probably

religion have become politicized and even then it's very different I think like it's like the minority yeah Olympics you hear about these days that like every so many parts of our identity are politicized now yeah it's confusing that you know if you say and honestly since coming out as non-binary I have risk gotten so many more opportunities work-wise and it's interesting I I go, oh, okay, cool, all my emotional labor, I guess it's coming through this way in a weird, strange way, but nothing's good or bad. It's just, it's just what it is. Yeah, which is a great way. You're such a stoic. I always say, Claude, is a stoic hedonist. You love life for what it contains, but you're very much like it's finite, I guess.

Yeah, the fragility of life, so you might as well enjoy it. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, with that in mind, I feel like you're talking a lot about this emotional labour, which I think that someone like me can't understand, right? Like, I'm never going to understand it the way that you've already understood it at your age. Is there anything that you're like, okay, I wish people would just understand this about me or about the people that are like me or about the people that I have community with that isn't talked about much? Like, what would you say is a big misunderstanding that if you had the opportunity you

could correct or something that you would love to be like, okay, you know, you're at a dinner table conversation with your family. What's a question you wish wasn't asked that you could correct right now? I think my main thing is to tell them you don't have to understand it to respect it. I love if you are trying to understand it and come from a place of empathy and openness and that you want to listen, but you don't have to understand what it means to be

non-binary or what it means to be trans or like the logistics of it all. That's not really your business. And you maybe can ask depending on the relationship and the person, but you don't have to understand to just respect it. Yeah. That's the main thing because

it is, I always say it is a gift if someone gives you their vulnerability and their insights in all of this, because they're living in every day and they're talking about it to all of their friends and people in their life all the time. So if they want to give that to you, that's really gorgeous. But it should be, like, you should handle it as a gift, not as just something that you take.

Yeah, which I think is like a great attitude with many things. Like someone's giving you their time and their energy and they're very careful. thought out words like you said you know those um flashcards almost of information and things that they need to plan to say have you have you found that like in the conversations you've had with family that there's people who haven't wanted to understand or haven't wanted to respect yeah all the time happens all the time you can sniff it instantly when someone is inquisitive and curious and wants to know and it's very different when someone doesn't give a fuck.

Yeah. How can you tell the difference? Because I feel like the line of questioning to begin with might be quite similar. You can just, a lot of it is in the tone if someone feels like they're arguing with you to some extent. And that's really hard because they're arguing about your identity. Yeah. It's not, no of their business, I guess, as well, which is the strange thing.

And also if they want to actually understand. versus, I don't know what versus, but if they... Or judge or argue, I guess. But they're here to be like, hey, I don't really get... Like, I love when people in my life who, you know, aren't queer, sit me down and be like, hey, I love you so much and I really want to get, like, understand this part of you more. Can you tell me about it more? And it's something that was really beautiful.

The film I made, the actor in it, the lead, is this amazing, um, is this amazing, uh, non-binary person who I adore and they told me this really beautiful story that I feel like they won't mind me sharing um the their mom who's also this amazing filmmaker who I'm a big fan of um she was like I love your queerness I want to understand it more it's one of my favorite things about you I cried because I was like oh my gosh that's stunning I've heard enough of oh I'll love you despite this or I love you no matter what even like I want you to love me because of this because it's one of my favorite things about me yeah and I don't mean this with like family I just mean this generally it's like a gorgeous thing about a person yeah I wish everyone could be queer it's the

best thing about being alive it really is what why do you say that like when you talk about well I guess it's like that visibility we're talking about the community the community it's even outside of the relationships and queer intimacy, which is also stunning. Yeah. Well, we were talking about that earlier. Like that book that I've been reading that was really, really interesting and how it was about non-monogamy. Yeah, open relationships, polyamory, and how so much of the hetero conceptualization of that idea has come from inspiration from queer culture and queer identities and

people who have adopted that within like lesbian communities and whatnot and how the relationships that they have with each other has kind of almost been taken as inspiration for how us as a hetero person approaches concepts like that it's like so fascinating so interesting honestly I wish everyone could get a little portal into all the conversations I have with my queer friends because they, about connection and about navigate, like I was having this gorgeous conversation today about cross-pollination.

So, oh, what does that mean? Essentially, like, the web. So, especially we're currently on Gadigal land in Sydney. And in the inner west, the queer community is quite dense. Everyone knows each other, everyone's fucked each other, everyone, it's very interwoven. and we were talking today about how to navigate that, and I've had a lot of experience in that,

and I think we came down to that if you have a connection with someone, if you want someone, always go out, go for that. Like that, you should, again, depends on everyone's moral compasses and relationships and dynamics, but also it's all about communication, and it's all about being conscious of other people's feelings, and like queer people, because we have to do that all the time. Our pool is a lot smaller than the hetero world. We have learnt these skills of how to, not always,

because sometimes it's really tricky, but, you know, everyone is friends with their exes or one of their exes. Everyone knows friends of friends who have slept with each other, seeing each other, whatever it is. It's so interwoven. You have to learn these skills, and it's really gorgeous. But going back to why I love the queer community, Yeah, I want to hear everything about it.

I feel like it's such an important thing to talk about. It's like if you're out there and you're a baby queer. What is a baby queer? A baby queer. You're queer you maybe haven't come out or you don't have much community. Oh gosh, it is stunning because no matter where, like I just went to the US last year and it was my first time going overseas queer, like out and queer. anywhere anywhere I went I would go to a queer bar event, trans space, whatever,

and every time I instantly felt safe and like I was with family. And that is what it always feels like going into a queer space, not always a gay space, but that's a whole other thing, but going into a queer space. You walk in, people will always make sure they look after you, people will always have chats to you, welcome you, be inclusive. it is this, like this big huge network that you can just dive in and people are, they just, everyone's had the same shared experience and a lot of people have had that in isolation

or, you know, completely by themselves regionally in their Catholic or girl school, whatever it is. Everyone has had a very similar experience and different ones, but like a core thing. So it just connects you in a way that, you know, that's why a little, community. Well, we call it chosen family, you know, because a lot of queer people's family don't always accept them or understand them. So, like, you know, over Christmas, I went to queer Christmases and it was just filled with community and it was so gorgeous. I don't know what else to say. I just, it's one of my favorite things about being alive because it integrates

all of these different kind of relationship structures. It puts in family and it puts in friendship and love and like romantic love into one huge, I keep saying sest pot. That is not it, but like, no, but like a gorgeous, community. Yummy dish. Oh, yum. It's gorgeous. It does sound really beautiful.

That's an amazing, I think, outlook, and especially when, as you were talking about, like, the baby queers, I've never heard that. I think that's, like, the most beautiful phrase ever. And people here were saying, like, you're listening to this, or even the film you made, which was targeted towards people who might be in like a pretty dark space

or in a pretty isolating space who haven't maybe been able to be truthful with themselves or those around them. And there might be people who are listening to this right now who are going through something really similar and who are really questioning, you know, whether they do want to come out and whether that's the right thing for them to do

in their community and their cultural group and their family. and they might be listening to this with fear or excitement. So do you have any words of wisdom, any advice for people who are in that situation? I think that coming out is quite archaic because if you are in a position that you do not feel safe to, I'm putting air quotes, come out with your family or cultural group or religious group or whatever it is, you can, for your own safety, not come out to those people, but you can still access community, whether that be online or whether that be in physical spaces depending on your situation, that it doesn't need to be this huge overnight.

I'm out and proud, you know, fuck you, support me. It doesn't need to be that. If you need to stagger it, if you need to have it in only safe spaces, that is okay. it is it doesn't matter because it is up to you and your safety and that's what's really hard and I drill home about all of this as well that so much of queerness is about safety that's why we gather in community that's why we have our echo chambers is because we do not feel safe out in the world all the time overseas there's so many anti-queer laws in so many different countries like there is a reason we congregate at the bearded tibed

and, you know, are different watering holes because that is the place. And then I also say, it is all coming for you. Whether you have it right now, you don't. And I really am sending so much love to you if you do not have that right now and you don't feel it's accessible. But I just promise you to hold out because there's so many little pockets. There's going to be the people that are yours and you're going to find them. It's stunning.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. podcasts. Claude, you do some amazing things for your emotional and your mental and your spiritual well-being, I would say, that really kind of, I think, drew me to you when we first met. And then as I started following along with like some of the things you're posting online and then some of the discussions we've had recently, it's just become even more prominent to me.

Like, what an amazing inspiration you are for the specific like activities that you do that really help, like, re-senter you. Can you talk a bit about them? I want to hear about the solo dates in particular. I feel like this is... The solo dates. The solo dates is like one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. Well, I think solo dates is something we've all heard about, but I have a structure that I've been doing for the last three years. Yeah. Um, that every month I go on a solo date to an Italian restaurant. You can choose your own. You don't have to be Italian. That's just what I like. To be Vietnamese. Whatever you like, but I like to do Italian, I love Italian food.

Oh, me too. And I book myself into a restaurant. I bring my journal. And every time as well I book, they're always like, just for one person. I'm like, yeah, babe. Well, at the start of the solo dates, I would be a bit timid. And be like, yeah, it's just me. But no, now I'm like, yes, it's just me.

I go to a different Italian restaurant every single time. And I have these set of questions that I, you know, ask myself where I journal about them. So I will put like my date number where I'm at physically, like the location. Yeah. And then I ask myself, what did you do today? And I write in extreme detail because that will be so interesting to look back on when I'm an old, old person. Yeah. and then what are you proud of yourself for?

And I do little dot points. And then the last three texts I receive because I think that's just another interesting thing to see. And I've been doing that every single month for the last three years. And it is such a beautiful thing, like a gift to yourself every month, but also a moment of reflection and to see what you're looking forward to,

where you've been, where you're at. And at the end of every solo date, I read the entry from the month before. And it's wild. Every time I say, what are you looking forward to or what do you want? Everything happens. Like, it always does. And also, like, it could be big things.

It could be small things. But it just keeps you on track for what you really want in your life. And I think having rituals like that is just a really gorgeous thing to be able to check in with yourself and continually check in with your gut and that you're on the path that you want to be on because we have a short time on this earth. We really do, but it's also the longest thing we're ever going to know because it's like human, you know,

the human time. Like that's all we know, but it's the longest but also shortest thing because it's inevitably going to end. So I want to be living my life how I fucking want to be. I want to be doing what I want. I want to be following my gut. I want to be always,

prioritising my well-being, my pleasure, my joy. And so it's a way for me to continually do that because it's very easy in life to get swept away and feel monotonous or disassociated or out of touch and get into a routine that you're not in touch with yourself. So it really allows for me to continually check in. Yeah. And I feel like those rituals are such an important part of our 20s, right? And I love what you're saying about knowing that, like, and hoping that you're going to get to the age where you can be reflective on these points and being like, I'm going to be able to track my development and like my goals and things like that.

And also I read back these entries from, like, you know, a few years ago. And the things that when I would say, what's in your mind or what's in your heart and I'd read those splurges of my anxieties or whatever was happening, years later, months later, that's fluff. I don't remember it or it's not important to me anymore. And it teaches me that when I'm feeling anxious about something or my brain is spiraling about something, that that is always transitory. Like it isn't going to be there for long. So if you're feeling it, let it swell, but also there are times to externalize and step

out of it because it's really not going to be there forever. Some things are, but a lot of things. are just going to float away and you're not going to really remember it. Yeah. I have this saying that I stay quite a bit on the podcast, which is that like if it's not going to matter in five years, you shouldn't think about it for longer than five minutes. If it's not going to matter for a month, you shouldn't, you know?

Well, that's the thing, right? It's like, and I totally have that experience as well, which is like why I also am a huge proponent of journaling, of in some way keeping track of your journey through life. I like read back on this journal entry from like 2017 which is what like six years ago yeah and I was like talking about this person I was like I'm not going to say their name because I feel like

I don't know they are a real person but I was like let's call them Lucy I was like Lucy said this really mean thing to me and then you know Anna was like saying this thing and that and I was so annoyed and I was so mad and like blah blah I don't even remember who those people are. Like, I was reading back on that journal entry and I was like, who is Anna? Who is Lucy? Like, I don't have any idea of who they are. But I think that, like, especially in this, like, this decade of life where it's like, this is our first decade of adulthood, everything feels so permanent and so

severe. And we no longer have, like, the shelter of our families and the shelter of being young to kind of protect us. Things can feel so much more serious than they actually are. But also, flip that we are still so young. Your 20s, we were talking about this before, are famously the time of making mistakes, experimenting, working out who you are. So it's also, that it's okay to go through all those growing pains still, you know, you're not, you haven't got your shit sorted in your 20s whatsoever. Yeah. No, literally, I feel like, and it's so interesting, I think like meeting other people who are doing something similar and like doing a creative thing and being like whoa like this is I never expected that I'd end up here and I always think about

who I was 10 years ago or five years ago and I'm like whoa this person would never have really been able to conceptualize or have any understanding of you know the loves that I've had the mistakes that I've made the moves that I've made like and that's going to keep you keep happening. I know. And that's like actually such a beautiful thing to me. Because I think sometimes I get quite worried about like the passing of time and I'm like, oh my God, this is so stressful that life is so finite and there's so much I want to do. And, you know, time just keeps passing. And then I'm like, the fact that I like look back on the last five years of my life and I'm like, you know, in five years time, I won't be 30. I won't even be 30 yet. And I will have all of those

experiences and so many more yet again. And like, I just cannot wait for it. It makes me feel so optimistic to reflect and then also look forward. I don't know if you have that same experience. I've always loved getting older. I've always, I've, every time I get a year old, I go, thank the Lord. Just I love getting older.

I can't wait. I love being this age. I'm excited to be my 30s. I'm excited to be my 40s. I'm excited to be in my 50s. I don't want to rush it, but I love getting older. I love juicing more experiences up and becoming who. I am because every year it gets better.

Like, it's also hard. Like last year was fucking hard. But it was every year I'm just getting closer and closer to myself. And I was saying to you before, and this might be different. And Claudia, in a year's time would be like, what the fuck, man? What are you saying? But I don't get nervous anymore. I feel so confident in myself.

And that is so cool. And maybe, you know, I like to say this quote I heard somewhere, which is you will lose yourself over and over again and you will find yourself over and over again. So I'm sure there are times I will feel extremely nervous and anxious and all those things. But as I keep getting older, I just feel more in myself. And I think that's a really nice thing to look forward to because time gives you that. Well, yeah, like you did go through a really rough time last year. Like we talked about this the other day, right? And it was, I didn't live it. and even hearing you speak about it, I was like, that sounds awful and so traumatic.

And so what do you think is, well, you know, there's been circumstantial things that have changed, but like the fact that you're talking about, you're talking about how you don't have any anxiety and how your life just keeps getting better, like, why do you think you've been able to shift into that perspective? Like, what do you think has changed in the way you see the world or the way you address your life or focus on your life? Yeah. And it's created that shift because I'm sure that a lot of people are listening to this being like, wow, living without anxiety. That sounds absolutely blessed. Well, I also want to acknowledge that a lot of people, you know, have anxiety or depression

or any other kind of, um... Yeah, mental health conditions. Exactly. That is outside of their control. And I'm not like, woo, life is great. Just live on the bright side. But for me, uh, my mom, uh, was diagnosed with cancer last year. And that was heinous. It was, she's, she's fine. now. She's in remission, which is great. But, yeah, it was, it was heinous.

And I was also going through a breakup at the same time. So those two, and like my first big breakup. So the two were kind of hitting off each other. But since, you know, healing from both of those things, a huge perspective shift happened, which was if I wake up and circumstantial things I cannot control, everything is shit and I can't control that, them fair enough to feel all those things. But if I wake up and everything is okay for the most

part in my immediate life, like obviously the world is a bit cooked. So, you know, I understand when people can tap into that. But if I wake up and people in my life are alive and well and healthy at this point and then I might as well have the best fucking time and enjoy myself because tragedy is coming for all of us. Pain is coming for all of us. That is inevitable. I watch this a really amazing documentary called Stutz, which I told you to watch. Oh, the one with Jonah Hill. Did you watch it? Yeah, he interviews.

I need to watch it. Maybe I'll watch it tonight. You should. Well, he says that, his therapist says that the three constants in life is pain, uncertainty, and constant work. Which I really agree with. But if you wake up and your world is not on fire, try and have the best fucking day, because your world will be on fire some days. And you cannot control that.

not be able to have the best day. So a huge thing that just happened when I thought that my mum was going to die. And then coming out the other side of that is going, okay, great, it didn't happen. Well, I might as well reap all of the joys of life, smell the fucking flowers as I walk around, look at dogs, pat them, go after what I want. Every part of my life I love. Every part of it. And I think that all of us should aim for that if we can, for whatever. whatever, it just in every single way, my career, my friends, my home, my life, everything I love. Yeah. And it's almost like this, I wouldn't say artificial optimism, or forced optimism, but like this attitude of being like, let's see the brightest side here. And I completely agree with

you. Like, one of my friends was saying to me the other day that her therapist was like, um, listen, like, your life is going to be painful. There are going to be things that you cannot control things that are outside of your comfort zone external things like illnesses like death losing your job but being able to be like what is within my realm of control what am I able to actually like it's almost like a chess game right like you can't control the other person's moves but you can control your own and also then finding things that give you a sense of fulfillment or ease or peace in all of it. Peace is a huge thing for me, is in all of it, how to find a sense of inner peace and acceptance. And when everything was really shit last year, I was living by the ocean and every

single day, I'd wake up, I'd get my coffee, I'd go and put it on my special rock, and I'd go for a swim, and every time I put my head under the water and I came up, I felt like a moment of pure joy and catharsis. And then I'd go instead of my rock, drink my coffee, and just journal and always, like having that every morning as a morning ritual was so healing and gorgeous and, again, another gift to myself that I could grant myself. Because in that moment, I couldn't control the pain I was feeling and everything that was happening, but I could give myself that morning every morning and it put me in a really good place. And then, you know, the day would take its course and who knows.

but I think that if you're in a space that things are happening and you can't control it, finding those little rituals that give you some peace is really important. I think that's an amazing point to maybe wrap up. We've had so many conversations. Pain and beauty. Pain and beauty. Yeah, we're kind of philosophizing, aren't we? We're just getting into like very, I feel like every time we talk, we have these very, like,

the conversations just go into this like entirely like we could be teaching a university course right now about hedonism about stoicism and about the the reality of pain and whatnot but um i do want to sincerely thank you for coming on well i want to sincerely thank you for having me on oh my god so much sincerity in one space at one time no it was an amazing it was an amazing experience and um i hope that if you've made it this far, which I hope many of you have, that you've learnt something, you've learned something important. Maybe you were listening to this as a baby queer like you were talking about and who better to take advice from then this amazing person. But also I take so much, not take so much, but I learn so much from queer youth as well, I want to say that like,

it's not just like, oh, the little baby queer, it's like, they are the future and they are teaching us everything and they are on it. Honestly, like, I feel like this, I feel like often when we talk, like the narratives around the queer community are often, like we said, politicise. So it's like really beautiful that you came on and we're talking about community and something that I think is not often recognized by people beyond that space and beyond that identity and beyond that community. It's the best kept secret.

It is a beautiful secret. And I'm so glad that you shared it with me. I feel very, very privileged and very blessed. So the listeners. Yes, and you listeners. You're in on the secret as well. Oh, a little secret circle. well thank you for coming on

and if you did enjoy this episode please feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts Spotify whatever you are listening right now follow us on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast if you want to hear more I'm sure I'd also tag you there

hopefully oh you know you know what's going to happen so if you want to follow along with their work I would really recommend it you can maybe you should pin that post about your solo Italian dates. I don't know how to pin things, but I'll learn. It's incredible. I really, I want that to be like common knowledge. How to pin things or the solo days?

Both. Okay. I'll learn how to pin. The solo dates. Yeah. I'll let's give you a tutorial. And thank you again for listening and we will see you next week for another episode. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

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