The Psychology of your 20s - 106. Overcoming trauma and complex PTSD ft. Amy B Chesler

Episode Date: July 11, 2023

TW: Domestic violence, sexual abuse. In her early 20s, Amy suffered an unimaginable loss. Her mother was murdered at the hands of her brother. But what came next is an even more incredible story of growth, advocacy and overcoming adversity and trauma. In this week's episode, we speak to Amy about trauma in our 20s and how we can push through grief and loss. We discuss the power of positive self talk, the psychology of complex PTSD, unlearning generational trauma and how to use your pain to help others. Listen now.  Follow the incredible Amy to hear more about her work: https://www.instagram.com/amybchesler/ Amy's podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/3amRVnSbdrioaBoaHcNRiq?si=364be5d8f92043b1  Buy Amy's book: https://www.amazon.com.au/Working-Justice-Familys-Betrayal-Healing/dp/1642937541  If you found this episode distressing, please see the following resources for additional assistance: Reachout: https://au.reachout.com/ Beyond Blue: https://www.beyondblue.org.au/  Mental Health America: https://www.mhanational.org/get-involved/contact-us See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and sexual abuse. There will be resources in the description of this episode if you need or require further help or information, but listener discretion is advised. Hello everybody and welcome back to the podcast. Welcome back to the show, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. Today, we have an incredible story, an incredible guest on the show to share their experience with overcoming adversity and hardship, mainly a trauma and an event that happened during their 20s. I think it's always phenomenal and a good idea to view our lives as more than this

decade and receive the import from someone who has lived through their 20s, lived through some incredibly hard things, and come through it so that they can teach us, teach us the way and show us that there is a path forward. So Amy, it is so amazing to have you on the show. Can you introduce yourself for the audience? Oh, Lord. You know, it's funny. I don't get nervous often, but I don't know why. I'm a little nervous right now. That was quite the introduction and such a beautiful, you know, space to enter. So thank you. I, my name is Amy B. Chessler, and I am an author, a podcaster, a mom, first and foremost, to be honest, I should have said that first. and I am a victim advocate.

I often start by sharing my story by saying I am a victim and also a survivor of domestic violence. My mother, however, is not. She did not survive the domestic violence we faced. So just I guess a long story short, because I do believe my upbringing led to me, led me to the culmination of a lot of abuse and trauma in my early 20s. But long story short, I was raised by a very tenacious, strong single mother. I grew up in Calabasas, California, so like the Kardashians, which was not reality. Again, like there's a lot of reality TV made about the place, but it's not a reality-based place. However, I was raised by a single mom, and we didn't have a lot of means.

My brother was ostracized there because, you know, again, In the 80s, 90s, we didn't have the cool stuff that everybody else had. We kind of were just scraping by. We were latchkey kids. And we both got picked on a lot, but he just kind of never found a place to fit in. That developed and turned into abuse over the years. He scapegoated. My mom and I, I believe, for a lot of the feelings he was feeling.

My dad was never really in the picture. In fact, my mom likes to tell me I was the last time they had sex. So, like I was conceived that time. I never actually lived with my father. I guess I was probably a lot less affected by his absence because I had never even known his presence. My brother was deeply affected by it because he left when he was three. So just from then on, he kind of was an angry-ass person. He really directed a lot of the anger towards myself and my mom.

He abused me in many different ways over the years. The abuse started around when I was probably 10 or 11. I say that like the abuse was environmental where he would get really angry and punch holes in the walls. He was really volatile. He was really moody. Then actually the abuse became sexual and he sexually abused me as a child. That was when I was around 12. And it took me decades to figure out what he had done because his abuse was so shrewd.

And I share like, I don't generally like to share that like the intimate. details of it live because I write about it more than anything because again as much as I digest all this trauma for other not for content and awareness and all that um yeah I get to choose the boundaries of that uh so my boundary generally but yeah that that was extremely devastating it kind of manifested when that ended a year later when I was around 13 he became extremely violent and angry ended up dropping out of high school and ended up going in and out of the army a couple times

the U.S. Army and just really could never find a place in life. My mom bled him in and out. An abusive relationship is really hard. We know the toxicity. We know the cyclical nature of it. Now there's a lot more language we have

than when we did in 2007, at the height of our abuse. Eventually, unfortunately, the abuse got so bad. He threatened my mom's life several times and eventually killed her. On September 25th, 2007, the exact date actually became America's national murder victims' Remembrance Day. Like her exact murder date. But that was coincidental.

I didn't find that out for many years. However, that day after he did argument, he stole her life. I came home to find her, even though he had told me he had killed her on my drive. home. I had reached him. He told me not to go home. I didn't really believe him because of his the nature of his abuse and his kind of cycle of behavior. It was so up and down. He would sometimes joke about stuff like that. I know that sounds really weird. And I've gotten a lot of slack on about that on the internet because people just don't understand how that's possible for me to hear that and think he was joking. But when you live in constant abuse or fear, sometimes,

those things are jokes. And that's a mechanism of coercive control that I've now, you know, identified with time. But so when I was 22, my brother murdered my mother. It was shocking. It was gutting. It threw me for a major damn loop. I found many mechanisms of healing afterwards, some healthy, some not. And now that I am 38, I have a great.

grand perspective of our experiences. My degree going into that, you know, my brother actually killed her two weeks before, two weeks after I graduated college. And my degree is in psychology. So I actually went on in all of that in my healing, went on to start my MFT. I did drop out because I realized it just wasn't exactly where I wanted to be. But I think I utilize psychology and obviously I utilize my own healing journey in my work, in my advocacy, and my sharing in my endeavors. And it's just,

yeah, it's been a bit of a mind fuck, the journey that I've gone on since then. I can imagine. And all of that is just so terrible. Obviously, we've spoken about it before, but it's just every time you tell me,

I literally just get like this, terrible feeling in my stomach that you had to live through that because it's yeah no words really no words and I like to add too is that the nature of my podcast not to plug it so earlier talk about it but the nature of my podcast is it's called what came next because quite literally people think that victims endeavors or journeys or hardships kind of end with the trauma and then we get to heal but the idea is that there's always something coming next so we'd like to think that like I like you said thank you I mean thank you for acknowledging that however the trauma didn't even end there with him yeah um you know the nature of our and I think it's important

to know that like the nature of our criminal justice system allows for I think I believe the correct term is litigation abuse so my brother was caught that evening he was admittedly guilty but it took four and a half years to convict him and the last ditch effort he made before he actually got convicted or actually pled no contest to second degree murder in 2011, I believe, was he tried to hire a hitman to kill me. He tried to pin the murder on me, say, I planned everything. I, like, promised him a huge lump of money that I didn't have. Like, I don't know where he was coming up with any of this shit and basically told this

inmate in jail that was getting out or, you know, potentially being released. like, hey, my sister did all this shit. Can you try to stalk her? He created like a stalking plan for him. And then he said like off the record like, hey, if you don't do it, if she doesn't do it, if she doesn't admit to what I'm saying she should admit to, just wipe her out, basically. So that was like a continued abuse from within jail. He eventually pled guilty.

And then I only got nine and a half years before his first parole hearing. And those nine and a half years I kind of had that like looming death threat over my head, I guess. I had always thought that like maybe I gave him a lot of power in those years, I think, that I shouldn't have, that I didn't have the tools to not give. I was definitely suffering with some severe PTSD lingering after all of that. So I think I don't even think I started healing until 2011 when I was about 26, which is my mom's lucky number. So there we go. Oh, that's sweet. That's very sweet. I've never really thought about that. Look at that. 26 is a special number, honestly. And because you were 22 when it happened. So that's, we said this before, but that's, you were just still basically a child, you know, technically and adult.

But it's still in that formative decade. Well, the ironic thing is, is that my brother always got the comfort of a youth offender status because he killed my mom when he was 25 years old and 90. months instead of 26. 26 in America is the number that we I guess the law sees your brain from fully formed and so I guess now I'm putting all these pieces together I didn't even realize that was 26 when he was technically sentenced and that's kind of interesting all these like alignments but yeah there's a lot of different little weird alignments that I've gone through similar traumas at the same time that my mom did um or just similar kind of like yeah anyway grief and trauma never really does leave the body. No. As we know. So it's just amazing to still see you doing really well and your show is

incredible. But I do want to ask, you know, this, this is a show about your 20s. Yeah. This is a major, I would say, defining event and defining experience of your whole life, but your 20s is when it culminated. Yeah. So looking back on that, what would you, what would you tell her now, this young person who's just lived? through possibly the most life-changing thing to ever happen to her. Oh, goodness. Well, that's a really big question. You're making me tear up.

But I think a lot of abuse survivors carry a lot of shame and guilt, and as much as I don't anymore at all, I've done a lot of hard work in a deep digging. I think I would just tell her that I love her and that none of it is their fault. I never shared about the sexual abuse of my mom. So I always thought when it happened initially that when I was 22 and my mom was murdered, I initially immediately thought, God, if I had reported that, my mom would be alive today because she would have created a harder boundary with my brother knowing how bad the abuse was towards me.

I always, she was my fiercest advocate. So I thought in not advocating for myself, I didn't advocate for her too. I have had to, there's this very like religious tentate that people have to have to. forgive their abusers. I don't believe in that. That's some bullshit. I believe in forgiving your younger self in allowing, quote, unquote, although that is not really allowing. You are being abused, but that is the sentiment that usually that is a victim, you know, we think, oh gosh, I've allowed this.

I have to allow healing and forgiveness to that young girl who didn't have the tools and resources to establish the boundaries that she needed. And I all, that's what I give myself every day. I also, something I say to that young lady, I talk to her every day, quite honestly. You know, that sounds crazy, but I. It doesn't. Well, I believe in being mindful and I believe in having healthy schemas in your head. The way you talk to yourself is of utmost importance. And the way I talked to myself at that time was not healthy.

A lot of young women in the world and a lot of young people in general, not just women, do not speak health. I don't think our society in general breeds too much mental health innately. And so I constantly talk to her by healing how I speak about myself. And in that, I'm speaking to her too. And I'm just like, I tell myself a badass all the time. I say, I forgive you. I love you. You are safe now.

Look at you. Look how far you've come. I love the tenets of healing your inner child. and I did an entire episode on it. It's my favorite episode because I think there is this misconception that it's really wishy-washy, that it's a pseudoscience. But positive self-talk and healing your inner child is so based in so much psychological theory, it goes back for decades.

And I just think it's a beautiful practice to visualize your younger self and care for them. because they're still within you. That version of you has not disappeared. You are not replaced each year that you age. So I really, really like that you brought that up. I have to ask something, though. Do you think that a part of your struggle was also survivor's guilt or the fact that you felt that you could have saved your mother? No, I never really thought about that.

To be honest, I know that sounds a little callous or selfish perhaps, but I knew the mechanism of abuse was all my brother's hands. I had seen his volatility and his violence for so long. I knew that was all his, right? Like, I didn't really, I didn't think, like, I never actually thought, because I always thought if I had been there that night and he had lost it, I'd be dead too, to be honest. So I get to carry on. And I don't have survivors guilt. I have survivors' responsibility, perhaps, in making her death not in vain, in making my efforts heard, in trying to change whatever I can by, you using our story as an example. My mom was a teacher. I used to be a teacher before I turned in the towel and actually, well, I had my own kids, but I also was like in my having my children,

I knew I had a lot to heal. I had kids in my 20s as well. I was 28 when I had children. So that is super formative too. I never thought I would have children in my 20s. I had so many conversations with my mom growing up saying I would not have kids until I'm at least 30. And then I went through this massive trauma and all I wanted to do was recreate a healthy family system or not even recreate because I don't think we ever had that with him. Maybe when we were very young. But my brother was just always, always beyond reach for her and abused her. It was a really toxic relationship. So I think my 20s and being free from the murder, I mean from my brother.

Unfortunately, at the loss of my mom really. it knocked me for a loop. It was fucking traumatic beyond belief. What I saw I wouldn't like wish on any of my worst enemies but it changed my life ultimately I got freed

from my lifetime abuser. I finally got up. So yeah. It's a big cost though I guess. It's very layered. It's very layered. Very nuanced. I just can imagine I just can't imagine what it would be like to be in your head stepping through all those different scenarios

and all those different outcomes and consequences. I will say 16 years later, obviously the way I talk about it and navigate it is a bit different than I was than I couldn't talk about it and navigate it. I was surviving. So it's just definitely interesting, the perspective I've gained. It's very intricate. And I wonder, you've already mentioned this about how it changed your life, really. And now you do so much work around victim and survivor advocacy.

and you have this entire show that is dedicated to extending the story or sharing, I guess, more of the side of the story that isn't always made available. But how do you think it's kind of changed your perspective and your mindset on life? Do you think that it obviously has had an impact, but in what way? You hit me so deeply with that question when I saw it. Quite honestly, it changed my life forever. like we talk about the brain development right our brains are not entirely developed at 22 so i saw the most traumatic thing i could ever see in my life at 22 i experienced extreme abuse in the couple

years before right when i was around 20 like it became very extreme so that abuse that event changed the way i literally react to everything i mean i i watch movies differently i this was a continuing argument in my marriage while I was still married was my ex-husband never really kind of understood where I was coming from when I would watch a bloody movie. I would cover my eyes or I would have him turn it off or something and he'd be like, come on, it's just fake. And I always would say once you see it for real, you don't want to see it for fake. Yeah. And he never kind of, I know, I understand the instance of have a too. There's a lot to I'm back over there too. I was like, I met him when I was, I met him like two months after my mom was murdered. So, and here came in a

a gentleman quote unquote that was like very much love bombing me. I now know a lot of mechanisms of coercive control and emotional abuse to a certain degree from a lot of my relationships. I will say that. But it changed the way I just literally see things, my perspective on everything, violence in the media, like I was saying, true crime content. My mom and I growing up, I always loved true crime. Not that I hate that statement because you can't love true crime.

Like you can love the content in true crime. I don't love crime, basically. Yes. You were fascinated by the stories. Maybe that's a good way. I was. My mom and I both were, right? That all of her books and her shelves were true crime books.

So now on the other side of things, and once I was healed, to a large degree, I could consume those stories. And really, it made me see everything differently, even the true crime space that I had always really been interested in. I navigate my relationships differently. I'm triggered by different things and other people are. I had PTSD for a long time. So even just when I go to concerts, it's very unnerving. I'm thinking about shootings all the time. Like America's state right now, the amount of shootings and gun violence, it's,

I literally just navigate world differently. I know like I'll literally drop my kids off at school, wave to them through the gate. And the mom that I'm standing next to them in friends with, I'll be like, I just hope there isn't so shooting today. And she looks at me like, what the fuck? And I'm like, I know that they are in the same America as I am, but I have known a violence like that. It was in my home. So for me to see it replayed all the time everywhere, it is highly triggering for me to even just to persist in my country.

So it's just a very layered state to be in and it's a forever state. You said grief is to a certain degree forever. Trauma can be too. Major trauma, especially I think before a certain point in your life is forever to a certain degree. That is not to establish a quote unquote, which is my least favorite statement in the world. And when you Google victim, I mean, when you go to Instagram and you type in victim, the first

thing that pops up is victim mentality. I hate that. But I'm not perpetuating. Like, I think that's the, the scummiest term on the planet. Because victimhood, when you're talking about extreme trauma or persisted trauma over the years, that is kind of forever. And it is a not a. mentality, but a state, to be honest. When you're that triggered, PTSD can be forever to a certain

degree. I see PTSD. I mean, that's generally what it's called. So complex post-traumatic stress disorder. And I think often people associate that with like, oh, you have to have gone to war or experienced like, yeah, I think we often think about it in terms of veterans. But there are so much everyday trauma that happens in the world, that is going to impact all of us in a different way. I do want to go back, though, to this idea that we mentioned at the very beginning, which is adversity and hardship and how we overcome that. Now, I think everyone in some capacity sits on this spectrum, everyone experiences something. No one goes through life unharmed or escaping kind of some level of adversity. And what might be traumatic, what might not be traumatic to you might be super

traumatic to me. So that is another level of that too. Sorry, go on. No, I just, I agree with that. I always say that trauma is subjective. That's like a massive thing that we stay on this show. But how would you approach hardship? You know, a massive part of my audience is people under the age of 30 who are probably experiencing, some of them will be experiencing the things that are going to alter their life right now, looking for answers. like how do I get through this? So how do you approach, how did you approach this experience and this journey? Wow. So I actually wrote in my book. This is a silly, but it's a silly anecdote, but it's from my childhood and it kind of summarizes how I take on anything because it's what my

mom left me with. Like I honestly think the main, I had many adults in my life that invested in me and made sure I was successful along the way. But my mom was the main. Absolutely. She left me with so many lessons. But I think one of the biggest ones was, and it's something I repeated over and over and over again throughout my life. And it's how I get through everything is that I remember,

I think I always wanted to be, I know I'm a leader. But nobody in my youth saw that. Like none of my peers saw that. So every year I would always run for office in school. And I would always lose. Even into high school, even into college, believe it or not. Like every single year I ran. I still run.

I love that. I lost. And every time, you know what I did? Every time I lost my mom. And I maybe took off a year here or there, whatever. But like my mom would say, okay, so if you lost this time, what are you going to run for next year? And that was literally how my mom trained my brain. So when I, she was gone at 22, I was literally left with, okay, so what are you going to do next?

It wasn't like, she just trained me that you always keep going. That tenacity was like the main theme in my entire life that she always left me with. And without her reminders and without her, you know, firing up my butt, like, that was left on me when I hit 22 and I was left without her. And that's just what I did. I kind of perseverance and tenacity, I think, has a lot to do with self-talk. I think it. And even when it was sometimes negative, when I felt ineffective at times or I lacked the confidence to do something I really wanted to do, I still had that voice saying, but you're going to try

because you've already dealt with the, I already dealt with the worst thing it could possibly have happened. Anything else, like rejection letters for writing, there are nothing. I just saw my mom murder. Like, you know, that is literally how I got through. I know that sounds a little twisted. dark, but I literally got through by saying that was the worst that could have ever happened. The rest has to be better.

And it's not that I feel that the world owes me anything. I know trauma will still happen to me in the future and it has in my life since. But it's put things into perspective. I think sometimes we think how people will ask me, how did you survive? And my only question is the only alternative is not. And you just get up. You put one foot in front of the other. I'm finally in a place right now where I can be really mindful.

I think I just gave myself grace in all of those years. And I maybe wasn't as my, I had PTSD. Like I said, that makes you not mindful. You can't live in the moment. You live in your anxiety and your fear and your panic and all of that. But the way I got through is just literally knowing that there is better. The world had shown me better. My mom showed me better.

teachers had showed me better. I'd shown myself better and all of that too. No matter what was going on at home that like all of my hard work paid off. And I like I think the other thing my mom always left me with was like the only way to fail is not try. So the only way to fail at life or to just is just to give up and I couldn't give up. Like I yeah, that's I know it like also obviously therapy really helped. Yes, but big fans of that. Yeah, and I have to be honest, though, not all therapy helped. Not all therapists are helpful. I think it's the right therapist.

I definitely think that there's this fallacy that any therapy helps. I've really been to some harmful therapists from anything really like a benevolent harmful where like the second meeting, like obviously therapists often ask you, what brings you here? Obviously, one of the first things I say is my mom's murder. And the second interview with this one woman, she said, okay, so how's your relationship with your mom? do talk to her daily or weekly and I was like, wait, hold on, that was harmful to me because she couldn't even remember who I was at a certain degree. There have other, there have been other ones that have been harmful in other ways.

But the point is, is that a healthy therapist that gives you tools and doesn't make you think that you have to live by going to them every week for the rest of your life is a great space. I think that knowing therapy is a space for reflection and resources to get through something. but it's not an end-all be-all. I don't think anything can be an end-all be-all. Exercise has always been a really great resource for me in getting through anything. In my 20s, I honestly coped a little unhealthy.

Like I dealt with not a diagnosed eating disorder, but I definitely had disordered eating at times. That was something I controlled when I couldn't control other things. Which is a big thing. A big link to disorder eating is when you've gone through trauma. up. Absolutely. And I saw that as more of a symptom. I was also plagued with really bad stomach aches around that time too because of all my anxiety. There was no diagnosis. I couldn't, I wasn't gluten intolerant. I wasn't this. I wasn't that. So I do believe I eventually like,

you know, I just, I got a divorce. I escaped some toxic situations. I put in the time and the work in healing and I thrived. So just like investing in myself, I think self-care has been one of the most, and self-care can be legal care. It could be therapeutic care, like in a regimented therapy. It could be like, you know, one-on-one talk therapy. It could be writing my book. Any of those things, I, you know, I started my book really young to in my 20s.

it took me a long time to finish. But like all of these things were practices I needed. Oh, I started writing and doing live pieces to share my grief with people that were also grieving or people that were mothers. And all of that really showed me I wasn't alone. And that has been a big saving grace as well as community, building a community around not like off of the trauma, but building a community around or surrounding the trauma. to kind of encapsulate it and to put finite borders around it and to heal together. Which I think is remarkable community is such a healing force. And, you know, you lost your mother on that day. But also you, you know, your brother sounds like an awful person, is an awful person. But you also lost him in the sense that like suddenly you had, there was no family.

I had no family. Yeah, my whole family. Yeah, gone. And I think that building community is something I say to like everyone. It feeling less alone just makes everything seem more manageable. And I should have said that from the beginning. You said, how did you get through? I honestly, in my book, I explained how I got through those four years just to convict him.

And in it, the recurring theme I would say is the people my mom left me with, the community that I built through my work, through her, through everything, through school, through my sorority, everything. That all was literally what carried me. When I couldn't carry myself, those people were there. And then, you know, once I started sharing my story more publicly, the people that reach out to me and say, I'm a victim of sibling abuse as well. You know, in my research, I found out like 50% of American kids are affected by sibling

abuse in some manner. And I'm sure you talk about abuse in the definition of it at times. But, you know, abuse can be anything where they're using a position of power or, you know, to manipulate a behavior. So that is, you know, emotional, physical, you know, and I get messages all the time from people saying, I was abused by my brother. Or women who say, thank you for showing me what my son could potentially do. And just the allowance to know that we're not alone is huge. I write back to everybody that writes to me. And even like, well, I'll get to the, but like even when my book came out, my uncle hit me up. My dad is, my, my dad's

brother and he said thank you for naming something that I went through at the hands of your dad. Oh my goodness. And I had known that. He had never shared that with me, but my mom had told me some like stories about it. And so I helped, like this was in within my home. But in the messages I write back to people that send me like, you know, thank you. I went through this. I'm so glad to know I'm not alone.

I know. And I read a variation of this to everybody, but basically like my heart breaks for people who go through something similar, but it gives each of us a little bit of solace and knowing that we aren't alone. And that it's literally in the sharing is the lifting. When you share a load with someone, they're literally helping you lift it up. So that is what what community did for me too is that when I shared when I was rawest, I had someone to go to. I utilized friends, therapists, family. I'm so blessed to have family. I mean, oh my God, that's massive. Yeah. So many good things. So many good things. So many good.

Yes, I'm very blessed. Oh, I love that you. Which sounds very weird to say that. I love that. But I made an interview about my mom's murder, but yeah. Well, it just feels so dichotomous, but I, the truth's going to be true. Exactly. I totally agree with that.

I want to ask you one final question before we wrap up. And I think the big thing that I take away from talking to you is that people who experience these things should be in charge of their stories. It's not for other people to interpret. It's not for other people to use as entertainment. You know, obviously there is a core element of education. But if we as the audience, and I'm going to include myself in that as well, because listening to you speak is just incredible.

But if we as the audience could take away one thing from your story, what would you like it to be? Well, first of all, thank you for interpreting what you did thus far. That was a great takeaway, you said. You took away that each person should be in charge of their own narrative and have the power to tell it. That's, I absolutely agree. What I was thinking is actually, like I mentioned at the beginning of this, you asked how April 17th went, which was actually my brother's final sentencing, which just happened out of nowhere. And at the end of my victim impact statement, which I almost didn't get to make because he pled guilty.

and then said, if she makes the statement, I'm going to retract all my guilties. Like, he literally tried to fuck with me with that. Yeah. Oh, my God. And the judge kind of put him in his place a little bit, but then he talked through my whole victim impact statement, but whatever.

I was a badass. I kept pausing every time he talked. And even though the judge wanted me to keep going, I did not. But at the end of it, I said, and that's what the takeaway will be, a long story short. I'm sorry, I'm a talker.

I don't know. The thing that I want everybody to take away from my story, from mom's story, from the trauma that we faced, from everything that's ensued after is that, and especially from my brother's actions, it's that one person's actions can deeply affect someone else's trajectory. We see that all the time, right? Like in a million different ways. but I actually saw that recently at that hearing on April 17th, which I actually give a full rundown. I'm going to release an episode in a little while about like the update, but, and how that changed my life.

But for those who don't know, this was your, so your brother's final hearing date was on April 17th. It was a sentencing for a new crime. They also went backwards and gave me some more justice for other, for my mom's murder as well as the another crime, the death threat. He was threatening me. Yes. So at that sentencing, my last statement was again, I said, like my brother's actions proof, one person's choices can immensely affect someone else's trajectory.

But the DA proved me that to me too that day. He believed in me. He made a little bit of more effort. He did. He went a little bit of above and beyond his job. And he changed my life forever. And I think that just knowing that your actions carry. much weight. Even you listening. Everybody, I mean to say even you, especially you listening because

you're listening and leaving yourself open to change and evolving. But everybody's actions carry immense weight. And we all have the great ability to change things. And I really do challenge everyone to step outside a little bit of their comfort zone and do more for others and try to just, you know, go that extra little mile. It might make a huge, indifference for people. I love that mentality. And I just think that even with mental health and everything, you know, people that might be struggling, being there for friends, whatever it is, just doing a little bit more, giving that compliment when you see somebody walk by. You don't know what their day has been like. Whatever it is, I do believe in the power of individual,

I mean, I believe in individual power. I believe in you, the listener. Amy, I love that you we've ended the show on that note because I do just think it's like the most beautiful trajectory of this story, right? From the start of this episode, hearing what you went through and not just what happened on that day that your mother passed away, but everything from childhood to now and the fact that you're saying to us, just do that little bit extra for people because people are good and think about others. It's just so beautiful. It's just so beautiful. And I just think, the theme of this, the topic that we, you know, this all links to is like, overcoming adversity and hardship and your story through that.

And it's just really, I don't know, really inspiring to me to hear that you can still have that, that mind frame and mindset and that you've done so much good stuff for the world. Like, I can't wait to watch that, that vice. Is it a documentary or? Yeah, you know, there's just a tiny blip. I don't even know if I'll be in it, although they did ask for, like, how to spell my name. So I think they, but my, my friends who are actually releasing a podcast tomorrow, they're, they're kind of coinciding it.

They are kind of the main focuses of the, of the documentary, but it kind of goes through. And like, they just actually, they interview a whole bunch of really famous, I hate to say that, victims from, and just kind of get their take on how the whole genre go. Yeah. I guess it's today for you, though. I'm going to go and watch it after this, actually. I'm going to sit down and watch it. and probably send it to some of my friends because I think that is,

it's just, it's interesting. I think sometimes we need to be a little bit more conscious about how we consume our media. And I think often in the time we think like, I don't want to spend less time on my phone or yada, yada, yada. But it's actually like sometimes a bit more ethical than that. So I think this is, it's just an interesting, a really interesting, fascinating perspective that I'm glad you were able to share.

And I want to thank you very sincerely for coming on. Thank you to be honest. Thank you so much for opening your platform to my story, to leaving your heart open and listening. Thank you just for the thoughtful questions and for the care through this whole process. That's a whole other facet. I know this is not a true crime podcast, but we talked a lot about ethics. So thank you for contributing whether you are a true crime content or not. You are an ethical show that creates a safe space for victims like me.

And I just appreciate you doing that. and contributing such a thoughtful show to the conversation and such awareness. That is the biggest compliment I've ever received. I'm never going to forget that. Oh, my God. I love you, Jennifer. We're just having such an emotional time over here. And where can people find you?

I think that everyone needs to listen to your show. Can you plug yourself a little bit, please? Yes, thank you. So personally, you can find me on all platforms. at Amy, A-M-Y, Fia as and Boy, and Chessler. That's my last name, C-H-E-S-L-E-R. And then my podcast, which recently came out. And again, I kind of go through history, and I'm interviewing victims of relatively

notorious crimes or just crimes that happen consistently and talking about how navigating their after story, basically, navigating the after-the-trauma, how it affects them to share their story in the media, how, you know, how just like navigating the legal system, how that's affected their trajectory. And that show is called What Came Next. You can find What Came Next on your preferred podcasting platform. I know I mentioned my book before. The title is Working for Justice, One Family's Tale of Murder, Betrayal, and Healing.

And that, honestly, that was 14 years in the making. And I can't go through an interview without mentioning it because I think it was, it's a beautiful tribute to my mom. I actually include some diary entries of my mom's in throughout the book. So I just think like it's important again, like you said, to give victims voices. And I think I did that even in my mom in the books. Thank you again, Amy, for coming on and sharing your story. As always, if you think there is a friend, a family member, a colleague who would benefit from Amy's perspective and what she had to say today, feel free to share this episode with them. She was so generous. brave in coming on and I very much appreciate it.

If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give it a five-star review on Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. And if you want to provide some feedback, if you have an episode suggestion, you just want to reach out and say hi, follow us on Instagram at that psychology podcast. And we will be back next week with another episode. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Kea Game. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing.

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