The Psychology of your 20s - 12. Let’s Get Friendly with Jack - creativity, life paths and the next great Australian novel

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

Today we’re bringing in a special guest, someone very close to the show and my heart. The wonderful Jack - one of our co-writers and podcast inspos - joins the podcast to talk creative pathways, reflecting on your younger years, our inner child and our concepts for the next greatest Australian novels.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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wherever you get your podcast and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s the very unprofessional podcast whereby we talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology today is an exciting episode because it's our fourth installment of our let's get friendly series where i bring on a special guest someone who's a friend of of the show just to talk through, you know, their experiences in their 20s, what they've been, what they've learned so far, big changes and transitions before and after moments, strength, weaknesses, goals, all of the above. And today I'm bringing on a very special guest. One of our co-writers, actually, he helps out with heaps of my episodes. And I draw a lot of inspiration from

him. He's an amazing friend. So, yeah, we're welcoming Jack today. I hope you guys enjoy the episode. to everyone this is jack hey guys and gals and gal's yeah come on none of that in here

I'm a bit nervous audience this is actually this is my first podcast it's interesting being on one because I listen to them a lot and so just navigating this new territory I just listen to a lot of podcasts

yeah yeah really culture if anyone listening yeah see see and this is what I'm nervous about I'm nervous about me me saying things that are going to be held against me. And it's all out in the public. Everyone can hear it. But yeah, no, that's me.

I listen to podcasts. Oh, yeah. That's the whole identity. I can believe out anything that makes me sound like arrogant, but I don't think I'll have to. No, no. Yeah, yeah. No, be candid.

I'll be brutal. This is going to be like one of those really intense interviews that they do on like the New York Times. Yeah, oh, sounds good. Ask the tough questions. Yeah. Oh, I don't even know if we have any of those. If I can do an Oprah interview.

Hang on. Hang on. Yeah. You're good? I'm good. I'm still warming up to it. I'm still wanting up to it. Your podcast, your podcast virginity is, you know, it's a hard time.

Yeah, no, no. It's been to be there anymore. No, no, you make a fair point. You make a fair point. So, no, but thank you, thank you for making this special for me. Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, I'll be gentle, I promise.

Also, if you hear Ari in the background, she's making me dinner. That's my househouse friend of the show. Sounds good. She's cooking up the storm. So, that was a bit of a segue. He just had a bit of a yarn. But I want to say, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, as one of my guests, I feel like we've been friends for a while, like a long time. Yeah, yeah, ages. Ages. All four years, I guess, now. Yeah, oh, my God. Which is weird. Yeah, that's actually, you know, I was thinking of the other day, we've known each other. Well, I've known you my entire adult life.

True, true. Sorry, I was just taking a sip of my wine. For people listening audibly, which is everyone, I'm a big walker when I talk. So I'm walking around with a glass and wine in my room. Oh, you're doing your stroll, getting a step-s-up, Jeff. Exactly, exactly. But, no, that's interesting, right? because I guess I met you right before you turned 17.

18, babe. 18, yeah, when you were 17. Yeah. Turning it, yeah. Hang on. I still remember the first time I met you, actually. Oh, yeah. Have I told you this story?

I think so, because I remember the first time I met you, but you go first. Oh, let's see what our interpretations are. I'll say the first time I met you was like second day of B&G orientation. Yeah, yeah. And I was with one of my friends and we sat down. at a table with you and one of your friends. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Who I also knew very well. Yeah. But sat down and I remember I was like, the person who was sitting next to me, messaged me and was like, wow, they're really cute. And I messaged about being like, which one? Which was like really funny.

Love it, love it. Yeah. And then I don't know where we went from there. We just became thinking. Oh, and then I remember the first. bonding moment where I was like, we're going to be buddies, was we went for like a really long walk. Yeah, yeah. Like all around the A&U campus and it was very chilling.

We did a lot of those, hey, yeah. Yeah, we did. No, no, that's, I like that. That's funny. No, because mine, I think, I think it's good that we agree that the first time we saw each other was at the table. But no, my first impression of you, I remember sitting down when it was you, Allie, and then Davey sitting next to me. and I just remember like sitting down for one of those random activities not really knowing what to expect and then you guys started talking to us and you were so like engaging and interesting I just remember

being very like you started talking you you're blonde at the time I remember and you just started kind of talking and talking about yourself and I just remember you sounded very interesting but also you're very interested in what everyone else had to say it was really cool so and you're were talking about you said one of the first things you said i think was um you mentioned you were studying russian and i was like that is that is cool that is unique um yeah yeah so i did study russian i was the why was a good russian i was the lous russian shooter ever yeah i would never go to any of my chutes because it was all men yeah right kind of like and i just remember just being like and they were like we should do a study group yeah yeah right well so

All men in the Russian cohort. That's bizarre. Yeah. And there was this one lady, but she was a mature-age student. And I just remember this really funny. My Russian tutor, hilarious. She was really funny. But she was definitely, like, very communist.

Like, all of that. Like, and I just remember one time we saw these people doing yoga. And she was like, oh, looking out the window, we saw these people doing yoga. And she was like, oh, look, it's like indigenous people dancing. And we were like, no, no, no, no, that's yoga. Like, they're doing yoga. Yeah, I mean, it sounds funny because it almost sounds like she, I don't know, I don't know what her background is, but she, she was studying Russian. Oh, her background. Oh, she's a tutor. Okay. Yeah. Okay. She's really her background's Russian.

No shit. We'd hope. We'd hope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, um, that's interesting. She'd always put like, um, Lenin in all of her, like, examples. Like, we'd be doing, like, intense grammar. but all of the questions would involve Lennon. And her thing she would always say is, like, Lenin says to study studies, she'd be like, Lenin is it, it's child, it's child. Right, right. Conjugate this sentence, you know,

Mother Russia will rule the world. Yeah. Well, that's nice. So that's how we met. Yes, yeah. Yeah, I guess that also explains how you're kind of connected to the show because we've kept up our friendship for many, many years. Yeah, we've done well.

We've done really well. We actually have. Yeah, bloody earth. It's a really fun memories. Oh, let me, let me think. Let me think. There's a lot. There's definitely a lot.

I mean, just recently I've been enjoying the walks we've been going on during lockdown. Gem and I've been going up on a few walks through nature. And it's always fun. I think, I don't know. I'll sound very random and a bit tokenistic here. But it's very fun kind of adventuring around in the nature. It is. Yeah.

And what did we find? We went on a walk this weekend. I think we had our biggest hall of fight. Because basically what we do is we go off the beaten path. Yeah, you know, we're individuals, aren't we? We don't go down the path that everyone else goes down, which is we run with the ruse. Yeah, we were just about to say that. We run with the ruse.

We disturbed them. We just trash Mount Ains. No, we don't. No, exactly. No, exactly. But we went for a walk this weekend. Do you want to tell them what we found, our magical spot? Oh, yeah, okay, no, this was fantastic.

So Gemma just decides to take this kind of detail. We're heading down the mountain, and I think you just decide to veer off left randomly. But we stumbled across this little flatland area, so it was kind of like a mountain, but it was almost this plan that kind of extended out from it. And it was really cool because there was this bonfire in the middle, surrounded by logs. it kind of felt like we we entered someone's, you know, camping spot. Yeah.

It was really nice, yeah. It was really nice. And the boulder, I'm like shocked. We found this like, I don't know, like, I don't know. This is just like amazing to me because it's like a concept that's like very like, you know, those books used to read when you were a kid of like kids like adventuring and they'd find like hidden treasure. Yeah, yeah.

Or like they'd find something they weren't meant to find. And I felt like we had that moment because we spotted this like bold. And I think you noticed there was like, you're like, there's something still going to be up. Yeah, yeah. And we realized we could move the boulder and we open up and then underneath it was like a goon bag, like a shovel, sausages. No, it was funny. No, it's like, it was very weird. I don't know why anyone would ever do this, but they, they seem to have dig the hole in their camping spot with a little spade.

And they put goon and cooked sausages in there. And it was all mixing around in the dirt. So I don't understand. maybe they were trying to hide the garbage um yeah maybe i i can't understand why anyone would return there take the dirt dirty sausages out and get cracking with the goon again you know i didn't even think about that actually yeah because the goon bag was like full yeah yeah no they hadn't made a dent yeah and then we were like we were like we pinned it on the map so we'll have to go back there i still remember how to get there and like then we found this like really cool like dugout like camp

thing. Yeah, yeah. And we were like, oh, we make, like, this is where, like, the guy sleeps. Like, when he comes up here, like, this is where he sleeps after retiring from his, from his, like, bonfire. And then we found, like, the tire. And we, yeah, it was really, it was great. Yeah, no, we're piecing together, like, little clues of a wider narrative.

And we were creating little characters out of these clues, which was, um, I think, sounds pretty dorky, but it was fun. What were their names again? Oh, Bevan and Devin, I think. Bevan, yeah, Bevan and Devin. Yeah, those two. Oh, God, classic. It was like Brokeback Mountain, but in Mountaine.

Broke back Mount A Cancelain. A Canberra love story. Yeah, literally, a Canberra love story. That was, that was a good memory. We did find. And then we had a little meditation as well. Yeah, yeah, no, that was nice. That was, actually, it was not, yeah, no, so Gem's, I think you've been getting you to meditation recently, haven't you?

Yeah. Is this a new thing? Yeah, I think it's a new thing. It's like, I guess we'll talk about it later. We can talk about it now. I just find it like, I think lockdown's very stressful and like I was finding it hard to like stay present. You know, so it's like I do like three of these a night and they're so good. The app is called Smiling Mind.

If anyone wants to download it, it's free. Yeah. And I was like, Jack, we should do one like in the middle of nature, no one around us. We should do like a listening one. Yeah. And just like see how we feel. See what we feel. And did you feel anything?

Yeah, I mean, because usually my experience with meditation, I never really feel. feel much. This is really quite lovely though. I'll give it a little spook for any potential meditation meditators out there. But it's it was really nice. The whole practice of the meditation was being aware of what you're hearing. And for those who don't know, meditation, at least the one this was all that awareness of all that awareness to what you're feeling, to what you're thinking, to what you're hearing, smelling. And we're kind of halfway at the mountain and there was really strong wind coming through. And at the same time, you felt the wind kind of splash across your face and trickle your

hair. You could hear all the leaves kind of get pulled in the same direction that you were being thrown. Yeah. So it was, I'll sound like a very basic white boy here, but it felt very kind of at one with some of the trees and nature. Yeah. I mean, that sounds weird, yeah. No, it doesn't.

It doesn't. It was, I had the exact same feeling. I felt like the wind was like tickling me. It was like really, I was like trying not to giggle because I was like, the sounds are so present. Yeah, yeah. It's really lovely. And I think it was like listening to your conversations as well. It was like the most beautiful experience.

I would really recommend it. Our conversations. Yeah. Of course. No, all the voices in my head, Jack. Like. Yeah, no, it's hard having dialogue with you. It's like a, yeah.

Yeah, it's like four people speaking. One of my fondest memories actually was, obviously the pure imagination moment. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. That was pretty cool. We promised never to tell the story, but just for us. I feel like we should now that we brought it up. It's not going to sound as good when we explain it because it feel like...

It's just... Okay, okay. It's your podcast. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, guys. We're teasing them. But we used to spend so much time in your first year room. Oh, my God. Fondon.

Yeah, yeah. And you had that modeling job handing out. Lint Chocolates. Oh, fantastic. Yeah, that's right. You came and visited, didn't you? No, no, I had, yeah, so I had this modeling job through a modeling agency. And, you know, they gave me a pretty glorious job of dressing up as a link chef

chocolatier, just like you see in the advertisements, and standing in the aisles of coals and woollies and handing out samples of chocolates. What that meant was that when they didn't all get used, I was able to take them home, which meant that I had about, it would have been something like 200 limp balls in my room for about a month after. It was so good. And I'd act like a bit of a big dog and, you know, hand them out to people. I mean, maybe it was a bit patronising back then. I don't know. No, it wasn't patronising. I just remember how I'd see you throw a lint ball at me. And it just got to the point where we had so many yeah because i was getting sick of eating them because there were so many so i was like

let me just let me spread the love little everyone can have a lymph all so when you were done with your bounty you decided to share it yeah no no no i clearly i'm very i'm very selfless no it was really nice no no but um no i speak speaking of chocolates memory that i've of you jem in first year and even in second year you would always have a little sweet straw oh yeah so So it would be over at your house, your apartment, after going for a run or just studying down, I would always come up and they'd usually be a bit of like an hour or two hour, call off period where we'd hang out. And you just crack up in the sweets.

Have a little chocolate. It was delicious. Oh, yeah, I remember that snack drawer. That snack drawer was, like, you know how they say, like, in America, like, the freshman 15? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was my freshman 15. Yeah. It was like always, oh, my God, it was the best.

I'd always wanted one. Oh, it's great. Yeah. Yeah, no, no. That's the thing about it. It's like, it was really fun in first, you're first moving away because you can realize you can do anything your parents didn't want you to do. Like, you get ice cream for breakfast and get lollies whenever you wanted.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. And you have your own money? Yeah. True, true. With freedom comes great responsibility. I don't know if that's the quote.

Yeah. No, no, no. with yeah great great power to being adult comes great responsibility yeah and i don't think we were very responsible i remember like oh i have so many this is like kind of like a trip down memory like how we've developed into our 20s now like some of those like those silly experiences that we have yeah yeah kind of tape it off but oh my god i just remember my diet was so bad and i said i remember i remember i spent my scholarship money on tickets to europe when i was like manic one day oh true true the snap trip to Amsterdam.

Oh my God, that was silly, but it was fun, fun, fun. I just remember what we used to... Yeah, spontaneous. It was, you know, you shouldn't probably do that again. I remember being on like a China Airlines flight. Being like, am I going to die? I also just have so many fun memories of us watching Louis Thoreau in your room and I would come back from church.

That was a church girl. Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely. No, I remember one night we, I know we'd often be hanging out and then we'd hang each other on to get some, go for a little Maccas run. And I remember one night we came back with a bunch of Maccas, sat down with a pillow in the middle and then clicked play on Louis Thoreau. Great talk to the time. Yeah. I know. So, Jack, that was our baby selves.

That was when we first met. I feel like we've come a long way since then. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What are you up to now? Well, at the moment, let's see. I mean, how do I describe my life? What am I up to now?

Job-wise, I'm working for a government relations firm as an analyst, which is fun. I am finishing off my degree at A&U here, and next year I'm moving across to Sydney to live with you. Yeah, we're going to be together. Yeah, I'm keen, I'm keen. It's going to be good. You've sold it really well, actually. I'm excited. Oh, Sydney summer.

This is, yeah, I mean, have I told you my theory before? It's not really a theory. I'm just really excited for it because half the nation's been the lockdown. Canberra, Sydney, Melbourne. Everyone in Sydney is going to be coming out of lockdown around the summer. The beaches will be open. The bars will be open. And it's just going to be an awesome time because I think everyone's got this pent-up,

social, extroverted energy, or at least the ones who are extroverts. and it's just keen to have a fun time. So we'll have a good time, yeah. We're going to have such a good time. Are you scared? Like, I don't know about you, but I've been super scared of what's going to happen after lockdown.

Like, am I going to become, like, you know, like very introverted? Because I feel like that's what's happened to me at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, that's interesting. I don't know. I don't think I don't think I'm scared of becoming an introvert. I think I'm scared of all the,

normal responsibility coming back in a way it's like it's like at least at least social life has hit a bit of a pause and so it's a really good time to take some time for yourself but but then when when it comes back you know there's there's events and things that keep you busy um and i think you can get a miss a bit of me time so actually yeah so i think it'd be the same as you i think i'm i'm scared i'll be i'll at least want to be more introverted than i have to be yeah and i feel like we're both extroverts. So I think it's like kind of scary when you go away from the norm of how you've normally like lived your life. Yeah. I've like, like I've adapted so much to being alone that now like the idea of being around people is like quite frightening. So I feel like, yeah, we're going to have

to, the Sydney experience is going to be a whirlwind. Yeah, no, for sure. No, because you do really adapt. Like, I don't know, at least I've found your whole kind of mentality changes around life a little bit. It's not a bad thing. No. It can be. What have you been doing in lockdown? You've been doing heaps of writing as well, which has been very fun for me because I get to read it. Yeah, yeah, well, one of my degree course this year is creative writing. And so I've been doing a bit of creative writing, which has been super, duper fun. It was like, I've just kind of gone back into it because at the start of last year, I started doing a bit of screenwriting because, because, you know, it's a bit of fun.

And then, yeah, and then I picked up this creative writing course for this semester and have just been really enjoying it. And then I've also been doing a lot of article writing too, which has been also very, very fun. Yeah. And thank you for reading them and giving me feedback. No, you've done a great job, I feel like, because you wrote like basically, well, helped contribute to like a whole screenplay last year or like a mini series, basically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was fun. It was a really good time. It was a really good time. Do you want to plug it on the show? What's it called? Oh, sure. Well, it's actually, that's the thing. I can't really plug it because there's nothing out there.

But me and mate last year through, and sorry, actually, end of last year started this year, threw together a few episodes for, it was the idea we had was it was going to be a little mini web series called Shousemates. And I'm going to sound more like a bit of a basic white boy here because I've written a screenplay about uni kids just doing uni things. and so very relatable you know um and so yeah i bet it was just a real i don't know it was the first time really stepped into creativity at all um and i've just absolutely loved it um but it was really interesting because i found i don't know i've given i've been doing a lot more creative things across the last year it's almost like a found little version of my childhood self um your inner child that's a huge psychology concept your inner child is it is it psychology i thought

always like pseudo spiritual. I think it's like new age psychology. It's like I think it's a huge thing with like psychotherapy and like new age spirituality of like tapping into your inner child. But it is like a dialogue that sometimes happens when you use dialectical emotional theory or behavioral theory. So it's like what you want to do is start a dialogue with therapist or someone trusted where you just talk about things and it's about like accepting the things that I guess

a lot of people's psychological situation. come out of stuff that happened to them in childhood. Right, okay. I guess it's a way of like communicating that, and by communicating it, you get back in touch with your inner child and what hurt them and like kind of accepting them. So it's kind of like...

It sounds... Sorry, you go. No, no, you go ahead. I was just going to ask, is it kind of seen through like a trauma or suffering lens, at least? Or is it a lot wider than that? No, that's actually a really good question. I haven't actually thought about that.

I think it's more of like a deprivation lens and like a caregiving lens of like, what didn't you receive? Like getting back in touch with like basic intuition and instincts as well. And I think that's exactly what you're describing. It's like you've learned how to like be creative. And I think creativity is so much associated with having fun. And it's about play.

Yeah. Okay. Especially some of the other things you're doing. Like, oh, Jeff, I love you so much. I just think that you've flourished so much. I've had one glass of wine. No, me too. I'm there with you.

Like, you've just flourished so much into more of your, because you always were creative, always, you always have been in many ways. And I think that you've really flourished into that recently because you've tapped into your intuition and what feels good. And for you, it's like you've produced so many cool things this last year. Yeah, no, thank you. That's very kind. Yeah, but like a psychologist would argue that you've kind of shed the boundaries of what

you thought you wanted to be, you know, when we first entered uni. Yeah, absolutely. You were really set on being a politician. Yeah. And I still think you'd be excellent at that. But, like, you would be amazing. And you had this upbringing of growing up in north, west, what, north beaches, northern beaches. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Sydney. Yeah. Yeah, Sydney boys school. It was like, there's a lot of structure around that and you've been able to break out of it. So, like, what do you think your process? Because I just remember, like, when I would always be mad at, you would always be

manifesting these political aspirations and now you're pursuing such a more creative path of acting journalism so what do you think kind of allowed you to tap into that can you notice like a point where that became more present in your life yeah no no that's really interesting um i i guess to touch on the point of like how we've changed since since first year because uh do you remember when like it was like two or three weeks ago we're reading the journal entries from our first year selves Yeah. But yeah, I was, I was astounded by how different I was to the point where, you know, I thought I was a bit of a douche. Maybe I still am and we'll think I am in 10 years.

But, yeah, I think, but no, but no, I guess back to the question. I think the biggest thing for me was, I think it was kind of happening towards the end of last year. I went through a bit of a breakup and I was quite upset with life. in general and quite depressed. It's a bit of a morbid entry into the creative world, but it was, for me, it was like, I was feeling quite bad on a daily basis. And the saving grace for me, the kind of thought that I really touched myself to in that time was that if I can write about how I'm feeling, why I'm feeling it,

and I can give a very honest exposition of my inner world right now, even though it sucks, then that kind of gives up this part of my life a bit of meaning. And so it was, I kind of started doing free form, like just random stream of consciousness. It was called Morning Pages, its little technique from that another podcaster enjoys. Tim Ferriss? Is it Tim Ferriss? That's it. I know, I know, sorry. But the technique was you wake up in the morning and you just free form, right for about something like 10 minutes and you just get every single thing in your brain out. And then when you did that, you usually wanted to write a lot more.

Yeah. And I don't know, it just, it provided me a heaps of comfort. And now I started to, over time, develop a little bit of a passion for that form of expression. And that extended into, you know, me wanting to write a bit of a screenplay, do a bit of acting. And I guess, journalism as well. And to kind of express something to bigger than myself through that. Wow. Anyway, hope to ramble.

I don't ramble too much. That's like, I didn't even know that about you. That's like, I didn't know that you were doing that. Maybe you told me and I just wasn't listening. I don't think I told many people. I don't think it really told many people that. Yeah. Well, first you're on the show.

That's not really incredible, but I feel like that's such a good thing. I think also like where you were saying like you came from a point of pain, like all great artists kind of have pain. You know, no one, even happy stories have a. a deeper meaning or have some kind of contrast to them that is painful to do a suffering. So I feel like it actually probably was the perfect time for you. I remember we tried to give painting a go. Yeah, yeah. But that was around the time I was getting into creative things.

Yeah. And I think you suggested, should we do some painting? Yeah. That was hilarious. No, because you sat across with me and you kind of sat there and just made this beautiful, like, landscape piece, all from memory, ocean, you know, sun. shore it was this lovely little beach um it wasn't even a beach it was like a shoreline um and then i just did little scribbles and it ended up looking like a preschool preschool art um

not not not exaggerating right it looked terrible i'm just gonna say i love you so much jack and you i want to make dearest friends but it was a piece of shit it was yeah yeah it literally it was like i think it was like it was a triangle it just didn't make it i yeah it just didn't make sense but you tapped into what, here's the thing, though, this is the lesson, you tapped into what was your creative method or, oh, Ab and your, or, I don't know what it's called. Yeah. Your discipline of creativity. I'm sure the word will come to me.

No. But it's funny you mentioned the journal entries because I think we're both huge journalists. And I was going to say, we were, so the other night for the audience, we were, I don't know why we were doing this. We're on FaceTime with Meg, friend of the show. Yeah. And a good friend of the show, actually. And we were, we somehow ended up reading our journal entries from like when we were 18. Yeah.

And it is really insane to see how much you have grown as a person because I think back then you were really focused on, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but like having the life, like being in a relationship, having a good job, being physically fit. And I'm not saying you don't care about all those things. things now. But I think now the metrics of how you weigh your success as an individual, how you deem your worth, is more to do with things that are individually satisfying and tap into, like we've been saying, like that free-flowing kind of creative spirit. Whereas some of the, I remember both of our journal entries were pretty embarrassing.

Let's be honest. Like, some of the ones I read you with. No, that's very, that's very, that's very, yeah, that's a really nice, nice way to put it. Yeah. But no, I mean, even yours is. well. They were both very different. I think you've, I think you've kept the same expressive part of yourself really alive from then. But it was just such a different time, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. It's funny to see how we've, it was really, I think, I think we were both found it very profound. Yeah. And I would so recommend, like that technique, I'm, Tim Ferriss is, firstly, Tim Ferriss is excellent advice for the bedroom. Like, I'm.

I'm remembering you're telling me about that thing. I actually think that that's really good advice. Like, that's an incredible technique, not to steal his idea, but like in terms of talking about psychology, like just to go back to your point. Like the idea of journaling all of your feelings,

everything that's in your head, it is almost a form of meditation itself. Did you find that, that it was meditative or? Yeah, absolutely. No, absolutely.

I think the way he puts it is you, you let the monkey brain out for like, 10 solid minutes. And I think when he says to the monkey brain, he's articulating the kind of messy, fast-paced energy of a stressed mind. And it's kind of like the constant anxieties and worries and just thoughts.

And so I don't know, I found at least when you kind of let those floodgates open, everything is kind of out there on a page. So you're provided with a lot more clarity for the rest of the day. It was cool. And you kept- So I guess it was meditative. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I've got it all. I've got it all. Wow. And I don't know if this is like a good question. I'm just really interested just for like our college as friends. But like at what point do you think you kind of turn to being more fiction fiction based than non-fiction? Like I'm guessing at the start you were talking about your feelings,

perhaps around the breakup and other things that were going on in your life. When do you feel that it turned to something a bit more expressive or a bit more abstract or not so much based in reality? How do you mean that so? Like, you know, you've been really into the creative writing and also like creative expression. Like, oh, before lockdown. So I, Jack, it was, I don't sure if you're still in the process of auditioning

for acting school. Yes, yeah. Which I fully support, by the way. I want to have a really rich. Yeah, well, I think 99% of active friends are not rich. So you'll be buying me dinner. Oh my God. It's going to be like, we're going to have, dude, we're going to have, dude, we're going to have

so much creative input next year. Like, just the struggling, like, creative, like, journal, actor and then, like, the wild corporate sellout. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, it's going to be very interesting. Like, you could write a show about us. In fact, I could write another screenplay about my life. Oh, goodwill hunting-esque.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we make it to the Hollywood by, you know, sending around a screenplay and applying for it. I think that's great. I fucking hope I'm your day. No, absolutely. Like I was a friend, but, you know. Yeah.

No, no, no, for sure, for sure. But I think, I think if you'd be a really good person to show, you know, to bring into that world with, I think it'd be cool. You'd have some very cool insight and support. No, yeah, no, the acting school, yeah. So I will be applying for it. But I think a slim chance of getting in, if I get in, which is very slim, I don't, I don't think I'm too keen on it. But I think it's good to keep the options open. Yeah. Why aren't you as keen on it as you previously were?

I just, I just don't, I just don't think it's the right thing for me now. I think at the moment with work, like I'm obviously working in politics, there's a certain element of like you'll have your finger on the pulse and you'll have very good access to information through people in certain periods of time. And when you step away from that for a while, it kind of dissipates. And I'm just enjoying the world too much to kind of shut down the opportunity too early. Wow. If that makes sense. Yeah. So what do you think has changed?

Because I feel like we were doing, we were practicing intense monologue. Oh, like, I just think you're bloody talented. Like we did this one. I remember we were going through all the monologues that you could possibly audition with. And there was that one that we did. Do you remember what the name was? Yeah. No, it was.

I can't remember the name, but I remember how it went. It was pretty intense. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think back then you were really keen on it. Do you think that like, why were you so keen on acting? And back then, do you think it was like something that you felt was unfulfilled and now that you've kind of things have changed? Do you realize that actually there's other stuff that's out there?

Do you think it was acting was such a drastic change or like what do you think it was? Yeah, no, no. I'll give, I'll kind of step back a bit and give a maybe convoluted an answer, but I hope it provides a bit of clarity. For me, for me, it's like the way I've seen my brain kind of work across the last year, particularly around these career ambitions and taking risks, there's kind of two sides that I see myself wrestling with. There's a very idealistic side that gives me a lot of credit. to be successful. So for example, in the acting domain, when I'm kind of standing and looking down the career path,

my idealistic brain will be like, this is something that makes you very happy when you do it, which is actually quite true and not very idealistic. But it's the idea that if you are in this industry, then you will be very successful and a certain certainty in that. And then a more, I guess, critical or realistic side of the brain, which I guess takes that with the realities that it comes with in that, okay, you think you're going to be very successful. Every person who goes

into it will be. Only one percent really are. So in terms of weighing up how I want to spend the next, how will my life to look like, you know, three years in acting school and then, you know, maybe maybe getting a few great jobs that I love. But, not having a lot of financial stability and regretting, not taking a more stable career path would be the one I don't enjoy as much. That's a, that's the realization I came to. Wow. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. Does that make sense? Let me let me know if it's a bit convoluted. No, no, it made perfect sense. And I think that like, it's actually really interesting hearing that about you as a friend and being like, oh, I didn't understand that's like

how your brain was kind of working. Um, in terms of like, You kind of having to weigh up. And I guess this is something that we deal with a lot in our 20s is like, do you take the road of passion and the one in which you believe you'll feel fulfilled, but perhaps not stable. Yeah, exactly. Everyone listening to this can relate. You know, we all have these aspirations of living in a van or being an artist or being a musician

or doing something that's against kind of the stream of life. But then having to handle those practical limitations of, oh, I need to eat. and, you know, how much is this struggle really going to be worth for a few moments of like, not even glory, but of satisfaction? Yeah. So it's kind of like you've done that, it's taken you a few months, I guess, but you've done that equation in your own time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And I think there's a lot of, yeah, it's interesting as well because when you, when you're weighing it up, I think there's a lot of emphasis on the individual in our culture. and there's a lot like the obsession with personalities and that sort of thing makes you inclined to believe that you know you are the you are the one that will make it and that sort of thing um but i i think yeah i think it's i think it's worth you know at least wrestling with that with some potential realities um yeah would you call it delusional would you call it delusional though because i feel like yeah it's no that's interesting that's interesting i'm I think I would call it slightly delusional, but the weirdest thing about it is that if you don't

have that, I don't think you'll ever be successful in that field. Like you really, you need to have that conviction. Maybe you don't. At least the people, the people I've listened to who, you know, and watch interviews with that have done on that, the underlying thing is there is that conviction. So I think it may be slightly delusional, but it doesn't mean it's. It's a bad thing as long as you're willing to take the potential costs of, you know, not being that successful. God, it makes sense.

Yeah, we really are PPE. We just did a phone. Yeah. It is. It is. Yeah. He's discouraged. So I have to ask because I feel like we're both kind of at this stage where we have this like two roads diverge situation.

Yes. Yep. Where it's like we've got the corporate option. the stable option, the career progression, house at 30, marriage at 35 kind of option. And then we both have, I think this is why we really connect as friends, is because then we both have these like very strong creative desires. Yeah. That seem like possibilities.

And I wonder, you know, in 10 years time, regardless, which path do you think you would be happier on? Like, do you think that you would... Yeah, yeah. All things considered, do you think you would be happier as a successful actor? Or do you look happier, you know, regardless of the stuff, the struggle that you've had to go through? Or do you think you're going to be happier as someone who is working in politics, I'm sure, very successful? Have you thought about it?

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. I think it's like, you're right. When you're stepping out of university and looking at getting what, I guess, the first job in your career is going to be. It can be two parts. I think for me, and I don't know how this resonates with you, because by the way, guys, Jenna is an absolutely incredible painter. And also a really good writer, but you haven't written as much lately as you usually do.

Like, very good writer. Very, very good. And, yeah, at least for me, the, I, because I, that's, I think I started to, the reason I was bearing on acting was because I did see it as a bit of a fork and that, you know, if I didn't get into it now, that I never will. The thing that really did it for me, I really long conversation with my dad about, you know, this and what, what, and weighing on my choices and how it would reflect. And the best thing he sent to it, he said to me was, you know, just because you say,

know now it doesn't mean the opportunities close forever which sounds really basic the kind of the way he framed it was that you can go off and have the conventional career that you might also quite enjoy and do the things creatively that you like so you know write act whatever in your free time

and there'll always be opportunities down the line to further explore that particularly if you've been you know building it up in the background, if that makes sense. So I sound a bit like a sellout, but... No, no, I think that... I swear it's true. What do you think?

Well, I think that sounds exactly like something your dad would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely something your dad would say. Like, you know, I go to your house and I get, like, tarot card readings from your parents. Yeah. And, like, energy readings. Like, I feel...

No, you're right. Well, his exact words were, you know, when you ask... His exact words were when you ask something of the universe, you know, it will provide you an opportunity, many opportunities along your life path, which, you know, which, which I don't usually take at face value, but it was, it was very reassuring. It's what you needed to hear, I think, at that point. Yeah, yeah.

He said what you needed to hear, which is such like, kind of a beautiful thing. Yeah, exactly. Big shout out to Neville and Devils. No, definitely what I needed to hear, not what I think I wanted to hear, which is cool. But, yeah, how do you see the two roads diverging and your play? We've talked about this a bit, I think, actually. Like, we talked about it the other day. And I think I'm kind of at a bit of a, I don't know, I'm a little bit confused.

I love having this podcast, but I think it is such a creative outlet. And obviously, I think quite a bit. But it has been the thing where I think I've become quite existential and thinking about, like, the concept of, like, one life and, you know, is, you know, you're going to be dead anyway. perhaps you should really just enjoy it. And it's kind of, do you enjoy the risk and the idea of a big payoff? Do you enjoy the common luxuries? And that's a huge thing I've been, you know this,

like that I've been kind of thinking about recently is whether to take a creative path. And I think that like what your dad said has been kind of my reasoning as well in the less spiritual way because he's a very spiritually blessed person. And more so I was just kind of thinking like, you know, I never know what opportunity. may come up in the future. And what financial freedom might actually be able to bring me

in terms of realizing dreams of moving to Corrumbin and having my art studio and having my creative studio and being able to bring women and people and elderly people and anyone to come and join me. So it's like, you know, having, I guess money is kind of the... Activates a lot of your future ambitions. And, you know, Jack, like, the guy who played hand solo didn't become an actor to who he's like 40.

True, true. You're going to be such a silver fox. Like, I would be worried. Oh, stop it. Yeah, I'm worried about being silver fox. My mom's a hairdresser, and every time I go to Sydney, she'll find, like, one or two grey hairs growing when I'm getting my haircut. God.

So I don't know if I can support the look. I hope I can. But, yeah. I think that you can. Your mom is an excellent hairdresser as well. I remember last time we went up there, you went up to the app, and I had, like, this two-hour, like, your dad, because. I feel like I'm quite close to your family.

I really love them. No, they love you. Honestly, they speak so highly of you. Like, like kind of on par with Milan, who's been my best friend since preschool. They really like you. Yeah, you hear that, Milan? I'm fucking, you're a territory, bitch. No, they're really, they're just such lovely people.

I think very highly of them as well, actually. So hopefully you share this, that you did this show with me, so they can like me more. Yeah, yeah. that. I'll share with my parents. Hey, guys. Hey, mom and dad. Hi. But I remember, like, going up there. They just provided such wide advice and your mom, I was going through a breakup at the time. And your mom gave me, like, the post-breakup haircut, you know, bangs. Yeah. And they look good. They look good as well. Thank you. They're not looking as great as when your mom, yeah, banging.

Yeah. They're not looking as good. That's what they call bangs? Yeah, bangs. Yeah, yeah. I'd be such a guy sometimes. but yeah bangs and I remember yeah anyhow that was an event later that evening yeah yeah they do provide excellent advice and like yeah I think what your dad said is completely real and just something that we all have to consider and a big shout out to people who do choose to take that road less travel and it is like something that we all come across

but in terms of the kind of lifestyle you have now tapping into your creative side what's that kind of one habit that you've picked up that you kind of want to see yourself doing in 10 years? Would you hope that you're still writing and still acting? Or do you see yourself? Yeah, I think I see, I don't really know. I think like as we're talking about earlier, first year, Jack, would have a 10-year kind of trajectory.

But if it's like anything to last, you know, this is a really boring answer, but I've stopped making really long-term plans in life because I realize that what I enjoy and what I'm discovering about myself changes so often that I'm constantly re-learning how to live a happy life. But I think that things that I've learned as a solid, which make me very happy, which I'd want to do in the future, is definitely writing creatively. On my off days, I'll usually have a routine where I'll get up in the morning

and get down on the keyboard and I'll do an hour at least. So I hope I'm still doing that because I think it's a really good way to kind of express yourself. And it's a bit of a pressure valve for me. It really releases a lot of energy and thoughts and ideas that I have. Yeah, that would be the one thing. I think that I want to keep consistent, you know, it keep, you know, kind of kind of like when I first started doing it. Keep, keep expressing what I'm thinking and going through the moment. and, you know, turning that into some form of entertaining art.

Yeah. Would you ever write a novel? I've never asked you this. Do you think you could write an upper novel or something like that? Like, what would you write? Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no.

That's a really good question. I don't, I think I would love to, but I don't think I have yet this is, this is a kind of, I really haven't tested it, but I don't really think I have the attention span right now. I find that what I, like, you definitely know this, What I enjoy changes every week. And so I would get one. Like the best part of short stories is that you can write it in two days or three days. Nobles, it's like a six-month, 12-month, 18-month journey.

And I think it's maybe later in life when I settle down and start and start getting a bit more stable with my passions, I can commit to something. Yeah, yeah. If it was. Yeah, yeah. Wait, yeah, if it was, tell me, tell me. No, you go. No, I want to hear if it wasn't. I think I think if it was, I'd love to do like a little like Aldous Huxley kind of utopia.

He did this, he wrote this book, he's the author of Brave New World, which is the bad utopia, the dystopia. But he did this awesome book called Ireland. And he spent about five years researching all of these different things about spirituality, social psychology, a lot of, it was a lot of Eastern religion and Western science kind of fused. And he wrote this really beautiful utopia based on, you know, what we knew about humanity at the time. That was really cool. What was it like?

So it was based on an island and there were a few really cool principles of it, which was that all the children belonged to, first of all the population was very small. And all the children... Probably why the utopia worked, you know. Exactly. Yeah. And all the children belonged to, like, every parent sort of thing. So it was, like, kind of collective child-rearing.

Yeah. And there was a lot of meditation that was emphasized. A lot of... There were a few principles. I read it ages ago, so I forgot it. Very good. Yeah. Yeah, well, it was cool.

Yeah. We were talking about Buddha the other day, why he was weirder. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was going to meditate under a tree for two weeks. I know. No, yeah, literally he sat under a tree for two weeks, only to realize, you know, at the end of it,

this is a bit much. I need to chill out and take the middle path. I would just be craving child time. I don't know. Can you get deliver root to your Buddhist tree? Yeah, yeah. No, I think modern Buddha would. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I don't want to disparage the modern Buddha for any Buddhist listeners. But we respect. religion here. We definitely, hey, but you know what we need to do next year because I feel like

we could both write novels and they'd be fucking fab. Oh yeah? What do you reckon? Well, I just think we need to just like do some really crazy stuff and just like really pushing

out of our boundaries and just have like wild experiences. Like I feel like we like next year. We need to just have, just do something like I feel like what you're talking about. Like I know you're talking about more of a utopian, dystopian,

and future world. I think in my some yeah I think it's more based in not so much political and sociological idealism but it's more yeah

love to write like an excellent like coming of age story like something that's like raw and it's yeah yeah how just terrifying life is but also just how like just

experiences and the human experience and I feel like such like an amazing time to kind of like make those because I feel like all good stories come from a place that's very real yeah no absolutely no I really I really like that idea that's fantastic I really like that well I haven't yeah no no no but like but no no it's a really cool theme though and I think um it definitely be worth like sitting down and talking about it um yeah or like dirt because because I think yeah yeah you go yeah no no you go just living

to her poor well like being like poor we're not going to be poor I feel it's bad to say but like young people in Sydney like I just I don't know maybe that's like a cliche like something that's been done before maybe I'm idealizing our future life but like just having all those experiences

and I think also you know this very well about me like I'm very obsessed with like capturing your youth and that's why I do like my one second a day that's why I do these podcast episodes just like being able to have something to look back on and relate to and being like, wow, like, you know, my biggest fear is being like 40 with kids and not being able to know, to know, to look back on and reflect on all the experiences

that I had. Absolutely. That was so profound. And I just think like messy. Just messy. Yeah, yeah. No, I like that. No, because I think, and I was thinking of doing this for a while, but kind of going back

through my journal entries and kind of looking at the kind of shape my life has taken and how I've grown. and like by way of catharsis, maybe revisiting those painful moments and capturing that somehow. And so I like your idea of capturing like a messy coming of age use. Yeah. Because I also like, like, I think, you know,

at least my years growing up, you see adults who have it all kind of together and what a stability. And you set really hard expectations on yourself. So I think the kind of raw art forms that have definitely been emerging the past few years about how messed up and scary and terrifying life can be the best. Because they give you the most comfort.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, like, that's actually, it's a good point. And I think that, like, my favorite book, like, A Little Life, does that really well. Maybe that's where I'm getting my inspiration from because I just read it. But it follows these, like, people from the ages of when I was 16 to, like, 40, living, like, in New York, following all these different career paths. and just growing their lives and all the things that happened to them and the conflict and the love and

not just the drama but just like the nuance of human interaction. It's just the most, like, real life is just a bit of a wedding, I think. And that's just like that book, excellent. I'll have to read it. Yeah. I think it's very long, but I think you would really like it at this point in life, actually. I'll give you my copy. No, thank you.

No, you're right. There's a real beauty. like capturing those little moments. Yeah. And kind of, I don't know, it's really hard to describe, but you kind of, that I, it's almost like where where you kind of touch life, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. And it's, you can really feel it.

Yeah, it's like, it's like, you can really feel it's very granular. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, anyway. No, no, no, you're, you're absolutely right. And I think that like the big part of it, but I love this book is there's no moral. There's no, like, moral of the story. Like, it's not trying to teach you anything. It's not like all those books you have to read in high school

where there's like this kind of theme of, you know, redemption or guilt or honesty or bravery. It's just, it's not trying to teach you anything. It's not giving you a moral. Like, I think it's the most adult book I've ever read because it's just like, this is the brutality of life. And it's joyful and it's hard. And it's not trying to force anything on you in terms of an ideology. it's like a reflection and reading it I was just like these characters just make such

like she just creates such a beautiful beautiful world that feels so real and yeah I think I've said I like said this to the guy that I'm seeing um the other day I was like oh fuck I forgot what I said oh yeah like I haven't read the final I'm so terrified of an ending because it just is so real like I know that something bad is yeah right oh no I know, and I've never read it. I've read the book so many times, I've never read the last pages. Yeah, yeah. Because it feels like...

I love, I love spoiling things, so I'll have to hold myself together after I read it. Oh, I know what happens. I don't want to spoil it, but I just know. Like, it's all leading up to this point, and I'm just like, terrified because it's just so fucking real and so existential, and it's just like too much for me, I think. Yeah, no, it's a figure- either. It is really reassuring seeing those types of things where they, There's no theme or moral lesson.

It's people trying to reflect their own realities. I think it's been a huge thing that's come up in the TV scene at the moment. Where you have like this, oh, what's the show? Euphoria was a really good example where it's not thematic. It just gives like just very real stories about what people go through. And it has this, I'll never forget it has these amazing introductions to each episode. where the episodes will kind of take a focus on a particular character, but it gives you the kind of character's story and upbringing in background at the start of it.

So, for example, there's one of the stories focuses on a closet homosexual, and he goes through this background of, you know, him being shamed by his dad for being feminine and making the football team and all this thing. and then you kind of see his story play out in the episode. And you always thought he was a bit of a dick in the previous ones. And it just completely covers his image. Wow. Just flips the narrative.

It's kind of also like way back, which you and Tom recommended to me, where it's just like, this is dirty life. Like, yeah, yeah. That's it. Like, that's it. I don't know. Maybe there's like, maybe someone who studies literature can, like, give us, like, the name for what kind of genre that we're talking about.

Like, perhaps that's why we never write a novel, because we don't know enough about literature. But yeah, I feel like there's a name for it that someone leave it in the show. I don't know. Reach out. Leave in the show notes. Yeah. Leave the show notes team.

Yeah. No, definitely. Yeah. We've been recording for almost an hour. Yeah, you're right. So, yeah, before we went on, you said it was going to go fast and it went very fast. I hope it didn't embarrass myself. Because I was very nervous at the start.

And I don't like coming across in a bad way. I think I was being careful about that. I hope I was right. No, dude, this was like literally, I think the best part about good friends is realizing that no matter how long you've been friends, you can still discover something new about someone, and still have incredibly engaging conversations

that are just, like, really enlightening. And I have to say, I'm like, thank you for having me on. It was, it's a really cool invitation to have a very interesting conversation. And you ask very, very good questions. Um, so am I the next Oprah? Could I be Ellen? Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, if Australia hadn't Oprah, it'd be you. Oh, thanks, babe. Yeah. This is going to be my new. That's going to be my highlight of the week now. Um, but yeah, thank you so much for coming on. You're such a dear friend. So it was, and I think we've been talking about doing this episode for a while. And I'm sure the listeners who

are still listening, you'll hear from him again. We've got another episode in the work. Oh, true. We barely even talked about it actually, considering how much we've discussed it. But, um, yeah, I'm kind of glad that we didn't touch on it because I feel like it's such an episode in its own right. Yeah, a little sneaky surprise. Yeah, a little sneak. So you'll be hearing more of Jack's voice. Yeah, yeah. Hey, guys.

I hope you to enjoy it. Hi. But yeah, thank you so much to Jack. One of my co-writers, as I said at the start, who helps me out with so many of these ideas. And we have so many discussions. And he's, you're just such a big inspiration. You really push me to do this. So a real gratitude extending out to you.

but yeah thanks jackie oh thank you no that's that's really kind and yeah thanks thanks thanks being such an awesome friend and um yeah yeah so you go no you're doing your outro i need i need to stop talking no no i was just i was just gonna say this is it's so good you've committed to this for so long you've the podcast has been amazing and um no i'm i'm i'm I'm often in awe of the things you do constantly. But I don't say that often. Oh, true friends. True friends.

But thanks to Jack for stroking my ego there. Remember to, well, if you liked the episode, which I hope you flippin did, because it was bloody good. I hope you subscribe to us in Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you're listening right now. Follow us on Instagram. And yeah, I hope you really enjoy the episode. So thanks for listening. Jack. See you. See you guys.

Love you. Bye. Thank you. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO. on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On The Look Back at it podcast.

In 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year.

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