The Psychology of your 20s - 125. The psychology of dating apps ft. Bumble

Episode Date: September 11, 2023

The new reality of dating in your 20s is that the majority of us who are single are on the dating apps. Tinder, Hinge and Bumble have completely changed how we approach dating by expanding our options, making dating convenient and accessible and are increasingly becoming the way many of us meet our partners. A study conducted by the Pew Research Centre found that almost half of us between 18 and 29 have used a dating app. Yet, this has also transformed a lot of our offline behaviours towards dating. In this episode we break down the psychology behind dating apps including:  The impact of choice overload The psychology behind our romantic preferences  The scarcity effect  Seeking validation through dating apps Dopamine and swipe based dating  Dealing with rejection and dating app burnout  We are also joined by the wonderful Lucille McCart from Bumble who discusses how we can use dating apps to their full potential in our 20s. She explains how we can convert our online matches into real world connections, why you should be the one asking people on dates and the benefit dating people outside of your 'type'. All of that a more. Listen now.  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ThePsychologyofyour20s See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWA% on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners,

old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is great to have you here back for another episode, back for another topic. Today you've read the title, you will know that we are talking about dating apps. And I think the new reality of dating in your 20s is that dating apps are invariably going to be part of your story or sometimes even your dating. daily life if you're a single. And it's also probably one of the primary ways that a lot of us meet new individuals and form romantic connections. It's actually really interesting that it has taken over and really become one of the primary ways that people are meeting, I guess, the loves of their lives and the main people that they date in their 20s. There was a study

conducted by the Pew Research Centre and it found that almost half of us between 18 and 29 have used a dating app and we have all heard the stories of people finding the loves of their lives, their future spouses on these sites sometimes even when they weren't looking and you know I can't really say anything because I met my boyfriend on hinge and he is incredible so I'm definitely one of the success stories, despite the fact that for a long time, I kind of had it out for dating apps a little bit. I thought that they were so mentally exhausting and fruitless that everyone on there had such different intentions and varied intentions that you could never really meet anyone serious. But I have since changed my mind.

And I think the way that we approach how we use dating apps to meet new people really defines the experience that we'll have on them. you know, Tinder, hinge, Bumble, especially apps that exist on our phone, they have completely changed how we approach dating, specifically by how they have profoundly expanded our options for who we can meet. Because the uptake of these apps has been so massive, you know, it used to be that your only romantic options were really limited to friends of friends or co-workers or, you know, Dave at the local bar and now you can kind of meet anyone, not just the people who live down the street or go to your church, but people who live overseas. You could go on a date in every country

if you wanted to. You could meet people you might never encounter. Go on a date every night of the week if that's your cup of tea. And I just really think that that is something we couldn't do 20, 30 years ago. I think part of the inherent appeal of dating apps is not just the number of choices it provides us, but kind of the ease at which we can now dip our toes in and out of the dating pool in an extremely convenient way, often from, you know, the comfort of sitting on your couch or in bed. It's interesting because I think that dating apps actually represent this like broader societal shift towards convenience and efficiency. You know, we have apps like Uber Eats or Deliveroo for getting, you know, food delivered in 10 minutes or Amazon for when you really need that new clothing item or thing at your door in 24 hours.

And of course, we have dating apps. We have almost made finding love convenient, digital, online, something that you could do from the comfort of your own home. And you could join at 7 a.m., be out for drinks by 6pm. that is the appeal of these kind of platforms. I think not only have they changed the number of options and the ease at which we can tap into this like infinite source of potential matches, but they've also shifted our behavioral approach to dating beyond just online swiping. They've kind of changed how we date in real life.

And I think they've done this in both good and bad ways. and many ways that psychology can explain. So firstly, dating apps allow us to be very specific with our preferences, which may actually make us more closed off to real-life connection. So when we think about things like Tinder or Hinge, you can essentially choose your age range, you can choose your height preferences, even race, and all of these decisions that you're making,

they are based on what we think we are attracted to. And there are many, many theories as to where these romantic preferences come from, but also why they might not be completely accurate. So often we go into these online environments, wanting someone who is 6-2 and someone who is from our neighbourhood and someone who is X, Y, Z, A, B, C, and really, that might not always put us in the best position to meet someone we actually connect with. So we all have this inherent preference, right? And this preference comes from things like genetics. So the role of genetics is actually

pretty important. One of the most fascinating theories focusing on the psychology behind who we find attractive is known as genetic imprinting. So according to this theory, we subconsciously seek out romantic partners who resemble our parents. Now this behavior is thought to be an evolutionary thing, an evolutionary preference that helps ensure genetic compatibility and it increases the likelihood of producing healthy offspring. You know, it also comes down to things like hormones and pheromones, and it's closely linked to the Freudian idea of the Oedipus and Oediple Complex. I actually don't like this theory, I think that it's really strange to suggest that we are only ever attracted to people who mimic our parents, not just from a weird, almost vaguely incestuous way, but also because I think that it doesn't

really allow for the idea of couples who aren't heterosexual. There's also a lot of stuff to do with things like race. You know, if you are someone who is Caucasian, this theory says that you inherently can't be attracted to someone who is a different race to you, which we know very well is absolutely not correct. So it is one theory, not the full picture. I think our preferences also come from things like familiarity and similarity. We are more attracted to people we already feel similar to or who we share a common interest with because we interpret that similarity to mean that we have shared values and therefore that we are more compatible. Even deeper than that is this theory that we are attracted to people who we see as being equally attractive as us. So more colloquially,

we would say that is being attracted to someone who is in our league. And that kind of comes from the influence of self-esteem and not wanting to put yourself in a place where you can feel or are rejected, so you seek out people who you think are on a similar level to you in terms of the attributes that people find attractive. You know, culture, family, it also plays a role in who we think will be, you know, not only a physical match, but also an emotional match. And so we make our selections on dating apps based on this preconceived notion of who we see ourselves with in the future. But these preferences are not always accurate, and they also change over time. So research that has been published in the personality and psychology bulletin, it followed over 200

participants for 13 years. And what they found was that our conception of the ideal partner will transform as we get older. Specifically, we begin to reduce our value on things like attractiveness or we stop focusing on particular physical features. And there are certain treats that become more attractive to us, specifically when it comes to looking for trying to find a long-term partner. So how does this kind of relate back to the dating app theory, the dating app, zeitgeist? Well, the basic premise of these apps is that you don't need to meet people in person unless you want to. You can do it all online. And so we make judgments about someone's personality and their inherent compatibility with us based on a very limited information that is coming from

potentially a highly curated profile. And we also make a judgment based on our misguided preferences. I always say this, but I think that you will never know whether someone is right for you unless you actually have the chance to meet them. Obviously, there are some huge red flags that we can make a pretty snap judgment around. But because of of how many choices these apps present us, often we actually end up ignoring or dismissing people based on their profile who actually could have been great for us. Another element of this is not feeling like you actually have a connection with any of your matches because you are so overwhelmed by choice. It's kind of the reverse of what we call the scarcity effect. So when something is

limited or rare like a romantic connection, we value it more. But when something is plentiful and there is a very large supply like matches in a big city, we value each of those matches the potential for a romantic connection within each of those. We value that a whole lot less. Have you ever had that experience of chatting with a bunch of people on dating apps? And then one of them organizes a date and you have to like go back and remind yourself what their name was or you like completely forget what they look like when their friends ask or just feeling really overwhelmed by your options. That is reflective of an experience known as choice overload, which we have spoken about on the show before. Essentially, we find it really difficult to make a choice when we're presented with too many

options and that kind of seems a little bit counterintuitive. You know, surely as humans, we want more options so that we don't feel limited by our choices. But actually, no, our brains can only process so much information at once. So when we are on a dating app and there are thousands of potential people that we might find a little bit attractive, we might get along with, we might see a future with, we can actually become paralyzed by all those choices and we can't take any action. This may explain why a lot of us don't actually end up meeting the people we might. match with or translating those online interactions into real dates. So there was a study that I found when looking into this that was actually really interesting when it comes to this point. And what

it said was that some 48% of people who are currently using swipe-based dating apps, so Tinder, hinge, basically, they have met up with less than five people in the past year. And half of those people have never even met anyone, despite using the apps continuously. And these are, you know, these people who are frequently swiping. They are frequently looking around, matching with people. So besides from Choice Overload, why is that so common? Why do we use dating apps if we're not using them for their original purpose, which is to Neo, date or maybe find love? I think the biggest explanation for that is validation.

Maybe we have a bit of a bruised ego. We've just been through a bad breakup. And if we're honest with ourselves, we're not actually ready to date again. But seeing those matches and those likes and the people who think that we're attractive is a confidence boost. It's validating to know that people think that you're hot or people think that you're cute. And in our society, attractiveness is often associated with self-worth. And so we find that we feel a lot better about ourselves without ever even having to meet these people.

So 61% of respondents in this same study said that they were more interested in discovering who was attracted to them online than actually going out with anyone. And obviously I think we need to do a little bit more research into this would be a really fascinating follow-up study. But I think what this initial finding shows us is that dating apps may be more of a source of public affirmation than actually romantic potential. I have a theory as to why that might be the case, and it has to do with what I would call the gamification of dating through the existence of dating apps. And I don't think that that was intentional. You know, there's a lot of other apps that we use on our phone that we have used for a long time. And when we think about the things that we often go to our phones for, yeah, there's, you know, messaging, there's phone calls, there's communication, but there's also things like social media and games.

And these apps have been constructed to be highly addictive and to keep our attention by manipulating how we receive dopamine through likes and delayed gratification, flashy colors and short hits or kind of rewards. And so that pattern of consumption and that usage has been translated to how we approach dating apps. We now approach them like a game, like something to give us that dopamine through validation. And so we swipe and we swipe and we swipe and we swipe and we never actually do anything. Honestly, I think if you want any success, if you want to actually meet people, it might be frustrating to say it, but I think it's also obvious that you've kind of got to do the work. Like you have to be going on dates. Even if they might be horrible, they'll still be a really good story. You have to talk to people. You have to translate those connections to kind of real world. meet cutes. And that can be hard for some people. I really appreciate that. I think dating apps can make some people feel particularly down on themselves because of things like a high rejection rate. You know, not everyone you encounter is going to be a winner because each of these people has their own reasons for being on an app like Tinder or Hinge or Bumble. So kind of the nature of using these

that people can drop off. You're going to get ghosted. People start dating others whilst they're still talking to you. And I think that that is actually quite confusing and can make us feel a little bit bitter. And that lack of repeat failure, it's not even a failure, maybe the lack of success or when you've had a string of bad dates or a string of people who have ghosted you when you really thought that you were getting along, that's pretty exhausting. And I even have a term for it. It's called date. dating app burnout. I've experienced it before. If you've listened to my life update that I did recently, you'll know that before I met my boyfriend, I was like, I'm never going on a dating app again.

Like I'm not doing it. I'm so exhausted. I'm so sick of people not wanting anything. And if you're in that frame of mind right now, maybe it's time to change tact and take a moment to pause and focus on some other things or change your messaging approach. Better yet, match with some people that you typically wouldn't choose and just see what happens. Like you have nothing to lose. But that does actually bring me to my final element around the psychology of dating apps before we get into the second part of this episode. And I think it's really important to acknowledge some of the dangers, particularly around misogyny and violence towards women or other people. I don't really think I need to give you all a lesson in online safety

because hopefully we are all up to date, we're all up to speed on the do's and don'ts. And I would say that most people are generally pretty good people, but Stranger Danger is not a thing of the past. So I think it's important to do some of the basic investigative work before you show up at a bar at 2 a.m. to meet Mark, who was self-employed from a town you've never heard of. You know, dating app corporations haven't always been great at taking safety seriously, but one dating app that I think does and has done it really well is Bumble. And I want to quickly say this episode is not sponsored by them, by the way.

I just think that each app kind of offers its own flavor of online dating. And when I was single, Bumble was personally one of my favorites. So when we come back, we are going to be talking to Lucille. She is our very own guest member of the Bumble team. And what I want to talk to her about is how to, A, make the most out of dating apps, and B, just make the most out of dating in our 20s in general. So all of that and more in just a second. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

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Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Dating apps and the topic of dating apps comes up a lot. lot around dating in our 20s because I think of their popularity, their prevalence, more and more we're hearing that people are meeting their partners on dating apps. But I still think some parts of it need to be explored a little bit further from a psychological perspective, from a social perspective as to what the role of dating apps is now and how it's kind of replaced or compliments other ways of meeting people. And I thought, who better to have on the show than someone who knows this topic quite intimately. Today we are joined by Lucille and she works at Bumble as the communications

director. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. I feel like a lot of the rhetoric around dating apps comes from like the users and not so much from the people behind the scenes who have like brought these things to life. So can you explain kind of how the idea of Bumble came about and maybe also how it's different to the other apps? I know like it's the the, the, trifector of like Tinder Hinge and Bumble. How is Bumble kind of standing out from the crowd? Yeah, I think it's really interesting to look at sort of the genesis story of Bumble. And that happened nearly 10 years ago now when our CEO and founder Whitney Wulford had left

another dating app that she had worked for. And in the process of leaving that company experienced a lot of internet trolling, really saw the ugly side of the internet that we all have seen, but, you know, back then it was, you know, really dark. And so it really inspired her to think about, you know, why do we treat each other this way? Why do we allow this toxicity to exist online? You know, why do we treat each other a way that we just wouldn't treat each other in person? So while she is having this experience, she also has, you know, experience in dating and those two, you know, things kind of came together in her mind. At the same time as this was pre-Times Up, pre-Me-2,

pre-so many things that we know now when it comes to the conversation around gender. And she was thinking, you know, I know so many really successful women who are really smart and really powerful who won't ask a man out or who won't ask a man for their number in a bar who just have this like dating seems to be the place where we are still really traditional and still hold really traditional views. So all these ideas and experiences are kind of playing. around in her mind and that's where she comes up with the idea for Bumble because on Bumble in heterosexual matches women make the first move which means a man can't talk to you if you're a woman unless you make the first move first and invite that conversation and the philosophy behind

that was if we change the way conversations start maybe we can change the way they continue and the way relationships build and sort of bake in kindness and respect and inclusivity into those conversations with the idea being that men historically face so much rejection in online dating that that feeling can inspire them to behave badly to be aggressive because they've been told they have to be aggressive they have to be the pursuer they have to do all of these things so by flipping all of that on its head how do we change the way that men and women interact with each other. And how do we hopefully create healthier and more equal relationships off the back of that? And, you know, that was, yeah, nearly 10 years ago. And there's been so many success stories since

Bumble babies and weddings and engagements and all these kind of things. I think that success has been proven in terms of both as a business and as a way of connecting people. But there are a few things that make, that's not the only thing that makes Bumble different. Women making the first move. also are known for our 24-hour timer. So the idea has always been on Bumble to actually get people talking. The idea isn't just to collect matches and have them sitting there. It's to actually get people talking and with the goal of meeting in real life. You know, I think that changed a lot during the pandemic,

which I am sure we'll talk about the impact of the pandemic during the rest of our chat. But, you know, the goal has always been to connect you with people in your area that you can meet when you feel safe. And the 24-hour timer is about making sure that people are actually starting conversations and going on dates and getting out there and meeting people. And if you're not familiar with what the 24-hour timer is, it means that in a woman has 24 hours to send the first message and the man has 24 hours to respond. And in matches between men and men or women and women or non-binary people and men and women, the 24-hour timer is still there. It just doesn't matter who makes the first move. So the idea is, yeah, to just get people talking and get people

connecting, which I think oftentimes is what people, isn't necessarily what people associate with online dating. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like when I was, we were talking about this before, I am, I currently have a partner. So, but I've done my fair share of, of matching and swiping and, online dating and I found like the most infuriating thing about it was the use of it as like validation rather than actually for dating on both ends where it was like wow I just feel like all I'm doing is accumulating these people who like whose validation I guess I want and they're not really talking to them and I also think that giving women the agency to be like I'm going to choose who I want to speak to in my private life is so different to how we operate publicly where I think a lot of

the times there is this very traditional outdated idea that like men can approach us whenever they want and they can kind of interrupt our space and like come into our private sphere and like interrupt our lives and almost insist on some kind of romantic connection but I think the beauty of apps like Bumble is that it is no longer it's it's in the woman's hands who who who they decide to let into that space. So I think it's really, really cool. On a kind of like more general note, I think that the rise of dating apps

has really changed how we approach dating. For a few like psychological reasons, I think it gives us this sense of like abundance and infinite possibility. But then also kind of really has changed how we make decisions when it comes to our partners and the people we want to date in that we can be a lot,

quicker and discerning because of these online profiles and in a way that we maybe wouldn't be in our real lives or in an organic setting. And also this idea of like the choice paradox where like you're kind of overwhelmed by so many choices that you find it hard to choose someone. And I still think that they're yeah, it's really changed quite a bit. You have a perspective on what you think the major ways that dating apps have changed how we approach romantic connections, especially in our 20s? Yeah, I think that there's definitely valid arguments for the things you just mentioned about, you know, especially, you know, in markets where dating apps are really established and there's like large communities. You might feel like you're never going to get to the end of your, you know,

swipe queue or all of those things. And you can't imagine there's actually that many single people in your area. Yeah. But I think the flip side of that is that dating apps have really enabled you access to a much more diverse pool of people than, I guess, we'll call it analog dating does. I think if you were to just date in the traditional way going out into the real world, you're actually quite limited in the types of people that you can meet. Because traditionally, pre-dating apps, most people met at work. Well, I work in PR, so I've never worked with a straight man. Really. So I'm not going to meet a man at work. You know, Bumble is like a female dominated company. I'm probably not going to meet a man here either.

Yeah. And then, you know, through friends is the other way that people primarily met their partners. And what if you, all your friends don't have eligible friends to introduce you to? Or what if they're all married or what, you know, it's like you are limited by who's at the pub when you're at the pub or, you know, who's on the train that, like, looks nice. Whereas when you are online dating, you might have someone that lives next door to you that you never would have interacted with otherwise. And there's also research that's mostly come out of the US, but I think it would stand true everywhere, is that there's been a rise in interracial relationships since the rise of dating apps. And I think you could put that up to a number of things, but absolutely having access to a more diverse dating pool is a big part of. why you would see those kind of trends increasing, which I think is really positive. I totally agree. I feel like it's changed so much in the sense of like your, like, I always talk about this on the podcast, the idea of like your epistemic bubble and like your tribe. And that we are really quite happy existing in an established group and not really challenging that.

And our community is, and when we think about community, we think about work friends, we think about friends, we think about family, we think about colleagues, we think about acquaintances. It's not really larger than like 100 people. So I think it is one of those things where it's like, oh, great, now I don't just have to marry like the guy I met at church who my parents think is cool. Yeah, you're like, I can marry this like really cool DJ. I don't know, not that I would do that, but like, you know what mean? If you want, if you want, like, I've met on Bumble, I've met doctors, I've met DJs, I've met bar tenders, I've met, you know, people that work in advertise. Like, you know, you're, you can't really necessarily walk into a bar and walk up to a

table of a doctor, a DJ, a bartender and a, you know, barista, you know, like, you're not going to find that, you know, and that's just thinking about occupation. That's not even thinking about, like, values or age or, you know, like a million other things that go into, like, what makes a compatible partner. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so interesting because people who've listened to this show for a while will know that I used to have such a stance against dating apps, which is ironic, I know. And the irony deepens when, like, I met my current boyfriend on a dating app. And, like, even the, like, and I kind of downloaded it and was like, oh, my God, this is the last time I'm ever doing this.

Like, because I had reached this sense of, like, fatigue around, oh, my gosh, I'm getting all these matches. but one of the things that I'm not getting is like, I'm not going on dates or like they fizzle out. And I think that's why the 24 hour thing is great. It's like, okay, well, then I don't have to worry about this person after 24 hours. They obviously, like, are not serious about me or about dating. So I think it really contributes to this like dating with intention model that we really promote on the show. One of the things, though, is like I said, this kind of burnout or fatigue from being on dating apps since I was like 18 and then like periodically being like, I hate this. But how can we move our conversations on dating apps to real world

conversations, to real world kind of interactions? Because I think that was why I wasn't a proponent for a while. I now am a massive proponent. I think that they're a very important tool. But how can we kind of shift our online interactions with someone into a real world setting? Yeah. And I think what you just said that you downloaded the app, it was the final time you were going to do it, you'd had it, and that's when you met someone. that is not the first or the second or the third time. I've heard people say that is like, I just gave it one more crack and then I met this person

that's like now my husband, wife, partner, boyfriend, girlfriend, whichever it might be. And so I think it's really interesting to think about why that is so often the case and what you did differently that time around, you know, versus all the other times before where you downloaded it, how to go, like what was different in your attitude,

what was different in the choices that you made, what was different in how you put yourself out there. Because there's a reason that story is really common, and I think it is because you brought a different attitude. Maybe you were less self-conscious. Maybe you were more outgoing. Maybe that final air attitude about you gave you an edge, you know. Or maybe you had a really clear intention, like,

I want to go on a date, I want to meet someone. I have a vision in my head of who the person is that I want to meet. Like it could be any of those things. It could be none of them. But what do you think it was? That is so interesting because I'm sitting here being like, wow, Lucila's like spot on right now. Because I think that I went into it being like, yeah, I'm not here to like fuck around. Like I've done the endless dates. I've done, I've had like my feral error. I've had my relationships. I've had my situationships. And I was like, what I really want to do is just like actually build a connection with someone. And so the people who weren't willing to do that or who were just like asking me like, you know,

one word questions being like, why, who, what? Like, I just immediately was like, okay, I'm not interested in this. So I think that was one part of it. And then the person I'm now dating, like one thing that really set him apart was that he asked a lot of really interesting questions. And for anyone listening out there who's like, I want to connect with people on dating apps and have better conversations, he did this thing that was like, really got me where he was like, listen, I'm not going to ask, we're not going to start with a

small talk. I'm going to ask you 10 serious questions and then afterwards we can talk about other stuff. And I was like, oh, and at first I was like, oh, this is a bit like intense. He didn't say it as intensely as I paraphrased it. But he then asked me like a series of really interesting questions and then he answered them in return. And some of them were like, what did you learn from your past relationship? What do people think of you? What do you think people think of you when they first see you, what is your best attribute, all of these things that I think we don't normally do in the small talk phase. See, that is hot. It was so attractive. I was like, did you say here you're talking about a man? I'm talking about man, yeah. So like men, like take note

and also women take note that these men are out there. Yeah, and like, for any gender, I was like, this is just like, I was like, if I ever have to do this again, like, this is a power play because I was like, it immediately cuts through, I think, all. of the, all of the weird awkwardness of matching with someone and being like, what do they actually want? Like, oh, is this just going to be another, like, fizzle? It's just going to be like another thing. Also, a great feature of Bumble is like, you have to answer within 24 hours. So it eliminates, like, having to stare at the people who've ghosted you. But I think the other thing that really changed for me and why that situation worked and why it was, like, the dating

app, like why my final time using dating apps has proven successful this far is because I was like, I actually really know what I want now. And I'm able to very clearly, like, discern what they want from like certain things on their profile. So I think that like dating apps, if people answer honestly, also give you information that might be a little bit harder to get out. Like, do you want children? It's like that, those questions like, do you drink? are you looking for a long-term relationship or not? And immediately I was like anyone who was like just looking for fun or like short-term, not sure, I was like, no, I was like, if you're not sure.

Why waste your time? Yeah. And I think that's probably what you were doing previously is wasting a bit of time because you're like, oh, they look fun, they look hot, they look like they maybe have my shared sense of humour. But if they're also telling you in other ways that they're like not compatible for you or you don't want the same things, you know, but there's something about them that's like a bit of you,

then you're like, oh, I'll just chat. Or like, you know, those guys that give the one word answers, you're like, oh, I'm just going to persist. And it's like something really does change when you stop doing that. And you really look for the people that are giving you what you want. I love that perspective. Something that I get asked a lot that I think maybe you could shed some light on as like our dating up expert is these two conflicting.

perspectives. So when I was single, I heard a lot, like, dating is just a numbers game. And then the other one was, it will happen when you least expect it. Both of those, I think those are two incredibly different perspectives. It's like, dating is a numbers game is like, you will reach a maximum, reach a number of dates, and then like the next one will be the right date. And then the other perspective is like, it's all up to fate. It's like fate versus like action and intention. do you think it's a numbers game? What would you say, like, as someone who is obviously working in the machinery of dating apps, what does the story you typically see?

I think both of those things are true and both of them are incorrect at the same time for different reasons. And I think if we start with dating as a numbers game, it is true in the sense that you have to actually be talking to people in order to talk to someone that you like. You know, you have to actually be going on dates to meet someone that you have a great date with, you know. And not everyone is going to be for you and you are not going to be for everyone else. So in order to find the people that are for you and that you're for them, you have to, it is a bit of a numbers game. You know, it is a process of elimination.

Like you have to be out there on the streets doing the work, you know. Yeah. Yeah, to be out of the house. You know, you have to get out there. You have to be the love of your life is not going to, like, be in your living room on a Friday night, you know, and find you there. You know, like you have to get out there and do it. Unless he's like a real weird. Yeah, and then you don't want him, you know.

Yeah. And then, but then on the flip side, you know, sometimes the first person you come in contact with is the right person, you know. And fate does have a role to play. I think that that really depends as well on like your beliefs, if you believe that there is one person out there that you're trying to find or if there are many possible ones for you, I think that like it definitely can't be understated, that feeling like of when you know that you've met someone.

And fate has a big role to play in that. I don't, I think that really comes down to like whether you believe in, that our destiny is predetermined whether you believe that, like, big philosophical questions. But I think both are true. Like, you need to have faith that there is someone out there and that fate will deliver them to you at some point. But you also have to be in the game,

playing the game to win the game at some point, you know? I don't really like the game analogies, but like what I mean by that is you kind of have to hedge your beds and be participating in the process in order to get what you want out of it. And there'll be times when fate comes into it, but you still have to be in the running, you know? I really do agree with that, actually. I'm just full of agreements for everything you're saying. Because I think it's like, I also do believe that dating, especially dating with intention,

is a skill that you practice, especially like discerning what you want from someone, being able to set boundaries, knowing how to go on enjoyable dates, knowing how to get the most out of the experience is not something that we're just going to be like, oh, I go on like one date and a year and like, oh, it's terrible. Of course it's going to be terrible. In the same way that if you didn't talk to, if you didn't try and make new friends for a long time, you would probably really struggle having conversations with people you didn't have like a mutual shared history with. So I think you're right. It's like a component of both. And then sometimes it's just like the right person comes along and you're like, where have you been hiding?

Exactly. Where have you been? And I think like you don't always, like, realize that dating is a skill and meeting new people is a skill and dating is just meeting new people, you know? So the comfort level of like sitting down for a drink or a coffee or whatever activity you're doing with someone that you've never met, like that no matter how. confident you are, the first couple of times you do that, you're going to be like a weird and awkward version of yourself. So you have to get better at dating, you have to go on a few

dates and like practice that skill, learn, okay, what kind of questions do I want to ask? How do I want to answer those kind of questions? What are my good stories? You know, what is it? You know, it's like, it's dating in that sense is almost like public speaking, you know, or like presenting skills. Like, because there's not that many, aside from work, there's not that many other scenarios in life where you're pushed into a one-on-one situation with someone that you don't know, and it is a skill to develop. And it's actually a really great skill to develop. If you are really good at dating, that can build your confidence and help you in so many other parts of your life as well, because it is that skill that will transfer into meeting new people in any

context. But it is something that you do have to, you know, have a go at and practice. And that's why it is good to go on dates, even if you're not like 100% sure that you really like that person. It's like, well, it's all good for the experience, you know. It doesn't mean like use people as practice dates. But you also never know, like sometimes, like I do this thing because I know we had, like, we were talking before about also like not feeling a spark and like I do this thing every single date I go on first date I sit down immediately and I'm like oh no like you know like really and I have to push through it because it's like this immediate automatic response where I'm like no matter if they look exactly like how I imagined no matter

if their voice is exactly like how I pictured it they're wearing exactly what I just get this immediate like oh no um got the ick and I have to push through it and it almost nine times out of 10, it like goes away after like five minutes of like sitting there talking to them. But it's almost like this weird automatic reaction where my brain's like, no, no, no, you don't like this person. It's so weird. But it's like you have to push through that kind of thing because I've had that with people that I've like gone on to have like relationships with, you know. So it's like we also have this kind of romantic idea. Like we're expecting like sparks to fly and fireworks immediately. And like that's not.

really reality. No. I think it's like about pushing through the discomfort and something else that really reminded me of. What you were saying is you don't really know what someone's like until you meet them. And I think that's the argument for using apps in a way whereby you're not just looking for online interactions. You're actually looking for like real life situations. Because once you meet them, I had this with someone I was dating previously where I was like, oh my goodness, like his profile was not amazing. I was kind of like, it's giving me the ick. But he like immediately asked me on a date and I was like, and I met him in person and

I was like felt a bit awkward and then suddenly it was like the best day I'd ever been on because I like forced myself out of my comfort zone. It's also something that I'm like, I also have to remind myself what I did when I was single is like, is this date actually interesting or am I just an interesting person? Yes. Because am I carrying this? Yeah. Am I carrying this?

is. And so one of my friends had this really, because we were talking about it a lot and she was like, you know, Gemma, your day job is talking to people for a living and finding, like, finding ways to make, you know, a topic accessible and, you know, speak to people. So of course, when you go on a date with someone, you're going to be applying that same skill that you have. And she said to me, she was like, when you're on a date, you need to think about how many questions has he asked you in the last hour, and it should be more than, like, I think five was her rule. And notice how many times you're genuinely laughing. And try not to, like, fake laugh out of politeness. Because I think that, like, humor and emotional compatibility and conversation are, like, the three bedrocks for

a good connection. That's just my personal perspective. And she was, like, often as women, in particular, speaking as a woman, your first inclination is to like be really polite and really appease this person and make them think they're really funny and make them think they're really interesting. But it's like, no, when you're dating with intention, you're the one who wants to be satisfied here. Yeah. And I also do this thing where I, if I'm nervous, I will ask heaps of questions just out of like, it's almost like that nervous anxiety, like that energy that you get. And then it's easy to just do that nonsense. stop and then be like, hang on, this person hasn't asked me anything.

And are they, yeah, what are we really getting at here? And I think that's the other thing when you think about dating with intention is like being clear on what it is you want is actually kind of a hard thing to do in your 20s because in your early 20s, it's going to be probably different in your late 20s and working out like what it is that you want to get out of a date. Is it just to like have fun and meet new people and learn things? is it to like find a partner because how you go about doing both of those things is very different. Also, it's experimentation. I think that's also why dating apps have a lot of merit in this

in this day and age is because you really don't know what you want until you experience it and also until you experience what you don't want. And that is part of that is the value in meeting different types of people who you might otherwise not have interacted with who might be someone who you've maybe counted out in the past. Like I think that is so, so important. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical

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or wherever you get your podcasts. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends... Oh my God, this is the same man.

A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific. con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

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Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Okay, so we've obviously spent so many minutes talking about this. One thing we haven't talked about is being single and how we can get the most out of our single days, perhaps with the help of dating apps. So I know Bumble has this really cool, I guess, is it a feature or is it a, it's like in the app, it's Bumble BFF, right? Bumble friends. Yeah, so it's actually just relaunched its own new app.

So it used to be a mode within Bumble that you could use for friend finding. And just last week, it's become its own app. So I think that is really one of the things that we're most excited about at the moment because a lot of our research from people in their 20s, like Gen Z people, were saying, like they want to make new friends, they feel lonely, they remote work and remote learning and all these things is like really impacted their ability to connect socially, platonically. So, I mean, we touched on this earlier, like the impact of the pandemic in a number of ways. When it comes to like platonic connections, people don't really know, like, where to go to make a new friend.

And the interesting thing is a lot of, more than half of Gen Z people said they have made new friends online, but it's usually through social media or gaming or things like that. And not necessarily people that they can meet in person. and we've been talking a lot about how important it is to be able to connect in real life with people. And so Bumble for Friends works by the same way as Bumble Date, by connecting you with people in your local area who want to be friends. So if you're looking to expand your social network, do all these kind of things, make new friends, bumble for friends is the way to go.

And then when it comes to romantic connections and dating with intention, we've also launched a feature called in-app speed dating, which is literally what it says. And it's a bit of a mix of like speed dating and blind dating where you play the game on Thursdays at 7pm. And it's blind dating. So you get matched with someone for three minutes and you can't see their photos or their name

and you have to chat. And then at the end, if you both liked each other at the end of the game, you get matched. And then you see like their profile and their other information. So that's just like kind of a fun way of like getting you, getting people like actually talking to each other and dating because I think in this post-COVID world we're all a bit like we've all become a bit like insular and weird and we don't really know

how to get out there so I think if you're feeling like you're looking for that kind of platonic connection in your life bumble for friends is a really great way to go and if you're really looking to get back into dating and want to go on some more dates want to talk to some more people in app speed dating is like kind of a fun way to like do it at scale, like talk to a bunch of people in one go and like say who you like and, you know, if you're feeling like, oh, I'm talking to these guys or girls or whoever it might be and I'm not really, you know, getting asked out on dates. Like, do the asking, you know, have a, have a thing where it's like, do you want to go see Barbie or Oppenheimer or whatever

your thing is or like there's a, you know, this is happening on the weekend. Like you want to come with me like just ask people out like I ask people out all the time and like the first time I did it I was like thought I was going to die of nerves and now I'm just like do you want to go for a drink on Thursday and if they say yes great if they say no cool like no skin off my nose you know you just it's a muscle you have to build and practice absolutely absolutely I do that well not anymore but I did I'd be like you know it doesn't really matter like I want to see this person I may as well do it and it's always so nice when someone asks you on a date so give that back to them as well um also i will say i used bumble bf when i first moved to sydney i had moved from cambra it didn't really have

community and i was like i want to make friends from the comfort of my bed yeah no like in a way where it's like oh these are people that i might not interact with i might not run into them on the street i might not be doing that they might not be working with me and it was really really amazing and i think that a big part of being single is building community and building connection and building experiences and stories. And a lot of that comes down to, yeah, meeting new people. So I think that using features like BFF or just like a dating app to just go and have fun and just to meet new people, even if you're not looking for anything particularly serious, it's like super, super interesting. Wait, I have one more question for you. And I was just thinking.

this and I was like, I don't know if I know the answer to this. Do you use Bumble? Yes. Or is it weird? No, I do use Bumble. Um, I, it can be a bit weird sometimes. I do get asked every now and then if I'm like doing research or like, you know, spying on people, but I can assure you I am not. Um, and yeah, I ask people out all the time. I go on dates. I've gone on like three dates in the last three weeks because I just like ask people out and it really gets way less scary every time that you do it. So yeah, I would definitely encourage people to if they're feeling like, you know, we spoke a lot about dating with intention, but if you don't know what your intentions are, date different types of people, you know, if you've just always dated the same type of

person and it's not getting you anywhere, just like go on a day. date with someone completely different and get out of this mindset that like going on a date with someone is like some kind of massive commitment like you can just go on a date with someone have a drink with them and like see where it goes you know but I think we kind of have this especially as women can get stuck in this idea of like oh maybe I'll like send the wrong message or this will happen or like then I'll have to do all this other stuff but you don't you can just go on a date with someone have a drink go for a walk in the park get a coffee do whatever and just just see how it goes, you know, and try and go outside your comfort zone and go outside your,

where you've traditionally sort of dated. And even if you don't meet the love of your life, you will have great experiences, you'll meet new people, you'll build those, that confidence, build those skills, and you'll probably have fun. And I think we just get so lost in all of the parts of dating that make it feel stressful that we forget that it's meant to be fun. And if you go in with that, even if you have the intention of finding a long-term partner, your short-term goal should be to have fun, you know, and to enjoy yourself and to enjoy your life. So have your intentions, but also make sure that you're enjoying yourself along the way. I think that is a great place to conclude. That is such an amazing advice. And I was like, I wonder if she uses Bumble because I was like,

maybe it would come off as like, oh, is this person like a scam? Like is she like observing us? I was like, I really want to know. So it's good to hear that you believe in, believe in the app so much. I do believe in what I'm selling, yes. Yeah, it's always a positive. It's always a positive. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on today. It was amazing to have this kind of other perspective counter to like the user experience, but also the user experience, I guess. Yeah, it's a bit of both. It's a bit of both. Well, you're so welcome. It was so lovely to be able to talk to you. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five-stop. our review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now.

Also, go on download Bumble. If you're single looking to mingle, I feel like you should give it a go. If you enjoyed this content as well, please feel free to follow me at That Psychology podcast. If you have an episode suggestion, if you just want to be part of the community, I always appreciate seeing you guys over there. And as always, if there is a friend who you think needs to hear this episode, Share it on. Share it forward. Share the joy. And we will be back next week with another episode.

On The Look Back at it podcast. In 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I mean, it was a wild year.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with.

And just because you have the capability that does not. mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter.

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