The Psychology of your 20s - 148. Understanding ADHD in our 20s ft. Ellie Middelton

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

In 2021, Ellie Middelton received a diagnosis of ADHD and autism at the age of 23. It was one of the best things that happened to her. Today, she joins us to discuss why neurodivergence is typically overlooked in women, the misconceptions we have about ADHD and autism, unmasking and how to navigate a diagnosis later in life. She also discusses how to manage neurodivergence in our 20s, why self diagnosis is valid, and why the path people want you to take, may not always be the one for you. Listen now!  Follow Ellie here: https://www.instagram.com/elliemidds/?hl=en  Purchase Ellie's book, Unmasked: https://www.amazon.com.au/Unmasked-Ultimate-Guide-Autism-Neurodivergence/dp/0241651980  Follow The Psychology of your 20s here: https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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podcast hello everybody welcome back to the show welcome back to the podcast new listeners old listeners wherever you are in the world it's so great to have you here back for another episode as we break down the psychology of your 20s we have a guest on today that i i pursued i'm going to say it that way. I pursued her. Sorry, Ellie. I just spoiled who you are, but you would have read it in the title. I was like, I need this person on for this topic. She is the perfect person to discuss this, to discuss ADHD, autism in our 20s. She has such a unique story and an incredible voice to this matter that I think is both personal but also very informed and a little bit different. So welcome Ellie Middleton. It's so great to have you here. Thank you so much. So nice to be here.

Thanks for the lovely introduction. I feel like I always sit here like blushing at the style and people are saying nice things about me. I'm like, oh yeah, that's me. Thank you so much. No, I get that. It's something you kind of have to learn to take sometimes. But imagine if someone sat here and I was like, yeah, I'm not that keen on this. Like, thanks for coming on, I guess.

Like that would be seen even more embarrassing. Yeah, that's true. And you're calling in from the UK. So we got like an international podcast crew going on here. Yeah, I know, worldwide. I know, Mrs. Worldwide's here. So I kind of introduced you briefly. You're Ellie Middleton.

You have this incredible story. You've just released a book on Mast, which is available in the UK right now. Hopefully by the time people are listening to this internationally, because it's incredible. But for those of the listeners who don't know you, can you just talk briefly about who you are, your story, your work,

kind of a free space to just chat Ellie, I guess. Yeah, thank you. So yeah, I'm Ellie. I'm an autistic and ADHD content creator, speaker and writer. So I guess the short version is that I got diagnosed with both ADHD and autism when I was 24. So up until that point, I'd always struggled with my mental health, had quite a rough time in my teenage years, but I'd always been diagnosed with generalised anxiety disorder and like anxiety-related depression and panic disorder and agoraphobia and all that good stuff in the mental health. space. But then when I was kind of 24, kind of realized that that didn't seem to really fit. Like it wasn't really explaining my experiences properly. Like I wasn't an anxious person. I just became really overwhelmed really frequently. So it wasn't like anxiety. It was

overwhelmed. But I think those two things are so closely linked that all the doctors that I'd seen in the past had kind of just assumed that it was anxiety. But yeah, anyway, when I was 24, I finally got diagnosed with both autism and ADHD and getting those diagnosis just like changed my life completely. Like it just made everything made sense. It made me kind of understand who I was. And I kind of, I guess I just felt so grateful that I got those answers that I was like, oh my goodness, like I can finally like be myself now. I can finally like work out how to make my mental health better, like all of this stuff that I just felt that there must be so many other people out there, especially women who were like in the same boat that I was. So they like had always

been diagnosed with anxiety. They knew that they were different somehow. They knew that something else was going on but they just didn't know what that thing was and they just never had been picked up by their doctors or their teachers or whatever it might be. So I started speaking about it online just like hoping like knowing that like if I'd have seen me speaking about it like have a few years earlier then it would have been like oh that kind of sounds similar to me so maybe I should look into that as well and maybe I would have got diagnosed like a whole lot sooner than I actually did. And so kind of wanted to try and at least like just make one person think oh maybe that that could be me and I could go away and look into that as well and then it all kind of spiraled from there I guess

so I kind of very quickly grew quite a big audience online and then I go into quite a lot of companies talking about how they can be more inclusive and then yeah as very kindly mentioned I've just written a book about it which is like my baby is like the proudest thing that I've ever done I'm so happy with it I'm so grateful that I've had the chance to do it but yeah I guess basically um I shout about the importance of like understanding the way that your brain works and like being gentle with yourself, but also kind of advocate for people having the chance to get those answers because so many people like women, people marginalised for their gender, people of colour, queer people especially are spending so much of their lives undiagnosed and just kind of

being missed completely by the system. So it's like on us to advocate for ourselves. So yeah, that's a long and short version, I guess. I love it. It's really interesting what you said, what you just said about how you had this litany of diagnoses before. you got to the right one. And I don't know if that's even the right way of saying it. Like, it's almost like, the answer seems quite obvious now, I'm sure. Like, you're probably questioning, like, how come no one ever said this to me? How come it was never an option? How come it was never on the table? I'm sure that must have been so frustrating. And speaking from, like, the experience of friends, I was saying I had a close friend who was recently diagnosed. And when you said,

everyone just told me I was anxious. I just immediately thought of her and how much that that was always the reason given to her for this pattern of behaviours, this pattern of tendencies. And it wasn't the right answer and no one thought to look deeper into it. It must be like so immensely frustrating. Yeah, I think there's like a couple of stories in particular from my like childhood and teenage years that I look back now and I'm like, how the heck did nobody like notice what was going on there. Like there's one, I think my mum, like, struggles with this one a lot. Like, I think she feels a lot of guilt when I, so I'm an August baby, so I was always the youngest in my year group. In the UK, our year groups run for, I don't know if it's the same of there, but we run from like September to

August, so I'm like the youngest in my year. And when I was at nursery, so I was like three and the rest of the kids in my year were four and we were about to go up to primary school. And the nursery teacher, like, pulled my mum in and was like, okay, academically, Ellie's definitely ready to go up to school, like she's really bright. She knows what's going on. But socially, you might want to consider holding her back a year. Like, she's very shy. She doesn't really interact with the other kids. Like, she's just not really interested. Like, we try to encourage her to play in their games and do all these different things. But all she really wants to do is, like, she just comes in every day. And I would, like, sit in the same room on the same table and just do, like, painting every single

day. And that was all I was interested in. And I look back at that now. And it was kind of just like, oh, okay, well, you know, she's just a youngest girl in the year. So she's just a bit shy. Like, it'll be fine, it'll come with age, like it's no, like, no worry. She's just like a shy little girl. And I look back and I'm like, if that was like Elliot, rather than Ellie or Ethan, or whatever it might be, like a little boy, a young boy that is like very academically bright, but struggles socially does the same thing every single day. Like, I don't know, he's lining up his dinosaurs in a row every single day. He doesn't want to talk to anybody. They've tried to encourage him to. Like straight away, that would be like alarm bells. They'd be looking into it.

They'd be trying to find out what was going on. They'd be thinking that was autism. but because it was a little girl, it was like, oh, she's just a bit shy, like it's fine, she's just a young girl. And it's like, that was like, I was three years old at that point. Like, if I'd have been diagnosed at that point or even had it looked into at that point, like, my whole life could have been so much different. And then there's like kind of similar stories in high school where teachers were saying that like, I was being had a really hard time, like socially and was kind of being

bullied quite badly. And one of my teachers had said like, oh, well, Ellie says things that are rude sometimes. so she can't like be upset when other people are rude back to her. And my mom was like, well, what does she say that's rude? Because like she's not, she's not a nasty person. Like she wouldn't, she wouldn't do that. And then they were like, oh, well, she had got like an A rather than an A star in one of her exams. And she was kind of saying to the other girls like, oh, I'm so annoyed that I didn't get the A star that I wanted.

Whereas some of the other girls had struggled to scrape a C or a D. And they were like, that's kind of, you know, inappropriate. You shouldn't be saying that. And I was like, well, I didn't know that that was rude. like I'm not saying that they should have got an A or a star. I'm just saying that I'm upset with myself and not being able to read those social cues is like a key sign of autism as well. But instead it was like, oh no, she's just rude. She's just a bitch.

She's just whatever. Like I think so much of it is closely tied to misogyny, unfortunately. But yeah, I think looking back, there's like so many things where it is like, yeah, what the heck? Like it was literally like, I may as well have had a neon sign flashing above my head that was like, this gal is autistic. but no one like ever kind of considered that that was what was going on. It's so interesting you point to misogyny and how, I think one of the deepest problems in how we approach neurodivergents, particularly ADHD and autism, is that the entire diagnoses criteria is built around the behaviour of boys and the behavior

of men. And we know that culturally, those two, you know, binaries that society often sees, they're raised different. They are taught differently as to how to behave, their personalities, their temperaments are different. But when you have this kind of systematic bias in the healthcare system, it's no wonder that people such as yourself slip through. And it's kind of a tragedy. And I know the things that you've done now are so amazing. But what if you had the opportunity to start at that earlier? What if you had had that opportunity to actually get the help you need, not experience so much self-blame and negative self-belief when you were three, when you were 10,

when you were 15, like I'm sure that's really rough. So I think you've kind of already touched on it, but why do you think so many women in particular struggle to receive a diagnosis, have their symptoms recognized, and kind of alongside that, why is it always that they get the anxiety diagnosis first before people consider other options, other potential things going on? Yeah, I think like you kind of nailed it really well there that the diagnostic criteria is just not set up to account for the experiences of women, the experiences of people marginalized for their gender, the experiences of people of colour, they're based on basically like the easy way to explain it is like the only people that these psychologists were basing the research on was like the young middle class white boys whose parents could afford, basically if they had a young boy that wasn't behaving in the way that they wanted him to, they would pay to take him to this private psychiatrist, and then they were the people that the research was based on. So anyone outside of that, their experiences are just not accounted for in the diagnostic criteria. So I think one example,

like for me, this is a question that I had to answer as a 24-year-old woman trying to get diagnosed. And the question is like, you know, say if this is like highly, highly true, a bit true, not true or slightly true whatever and it's like i collect information about categories of things for example types of birds types of planes types of car types of plants or something so me reading that question i'm like well no i don't i don't collect information about any of those type of things and then like the more research you do it's like well yeah that's because i'm not an eight-year-old boy i'm a 24-year-old woman like i collect information about i don't know if i like a certain band i will listen to their albums over and over and over again.

If I like a certain fashion creator, I will constantly be checking to see if they've uploaded new content because I want to see what's going on. Or if I like a certain clothes brand, then I will be obsessed with when the new drops are coming out and checking the website and wanting everything to do. Like, I do still do the same thing of like having these really strong interests that I become like obsessed with.

But they're just not birds, cars, trains or planes because they're very like stereotypically, like, young boy interests. And I think that's like a really good example of like just how much the diagnostic criteria is not designed. Like it's like you could sit there as a fully like 100% autistic person and still get a really like low score on these tests that they're doing just because the questions don't explain your experience.

And there's other ones where it's like, would you prefer to go to a museum or to a party? and obviously it what well I guess the correct answer is like they think that you'd rather go to a museum as an autistic person and it's like well it kind of depends on on the museum like am I going to party with friends yeah like it's like am I going like what sort of party is it am I going with friends am I going with strangers like it's like that question does not in any way kind of explain whether I'm autistic or not and I think it's the same like with ADHD as well that like I think it's like this like this like see blonde stereotype is one that I speak about in the book quite a lot, which I think is a reason why a lot of girls go undiagnosed. Because, I mean, previously it was kind of said that a lot more girls would have like the inattentive type of ADHD, which is the more like forgetfulness and struggling to concentrate and doodling and rather than the hyperactive type, which is more like outwardly visible, I guess. So that was kind of an idea of like, well, they're presenting a different type of ADHD, which isn't as outwardly visible. But I think that,

we've kind of moved on from that as well to be like maybe they're not presenting any differently like the experiences that they have aren't any differently um they're just socialized in a different way like i'm hyperact i have combined ADHD which means i'm both hyperactive and inattentive but my hyperactivity is very much internal like my brain is like a million miles an hour all of the time so it wasn't ever at school that i was like rocking backwards and forwards on my chair like causing chaos, like the teachers were like finding me annoying all of this stuff because girls are told to behave, to be quiet, whereas boys, it's like, oh, boys will be boys, like they're allowed to be a bit more chaotic and girls are very much socialised to, to fit in, to be well-behaved,

to be polite, to be sensible, to be like so much more mature, I guess, like typically. So I think it's like a combination of the fact that like one, when not getting diagnosed at a young age, because the diagnostic criteria aren't accounting for how we show up. And then secondly, because we're not like learning that we're different at a young age, we're then being socialized in the way that kind of this patriarchal system socializes all of like women and people marginalize for their gender. So by the time, like by the time we get any older, we're not showing any differences because we've learned how to mask them and cover them up.

Like my mom, we have like a lot of conversations where it is obviously that thing of like the grief, I guess, of getting diagnosed later in life where it's like, what could have been? Like, I had to drop out of school. I had to decline my uni offers. Like, I've had to quit jobs, all of this stuff. And I'm like, that wouldn't have happened if I'd have been diagnosed early. And, like, we've had the conversation with my mum where my mum has been like, but when I was 15 was when I, like, first got referred to the mental health services in the UK.

And at that point, they wouldn't have been able to, like, I'm like, I'm like, Like how could they not have seen? Like I was seeing a psychiatrist every week. Like how like how could they have not noticed that that was what was going on for me? And it's like, well, by that point, they wouldn't have been able to see it in you because you were doing such a good job of covering it up. Like by that time you'd have like, you were in high school, you'd learn that you had to fit in. You had to make friends. You had to survive.

So you weren't showing any differences for them to pick up on all that they were being able to visibly see was the fact that you were having these like meltdowns and shutdowns and becoming overwhelmed. because it was almost like you were keeping it all in for such a long time that then it had all just like burst out in these like intense things that would look a lot like panic attacks because it was just that I like would become so overwhelmed I wouldn't be able to speak I would be crying I'd be overwhelmed and it's like well that's all that they had to work with because they couldn't see all of that that you were holding it in like containing it most of the time they just saw these kind of like volcano eruptions of when it came out and so yeah I think it's a really it all like ties into it.

as well and it's like equally as well the more that the diagnostic criteria only account for the experiences of these like young white cis boys the more that they're the only people that do get diagnosed so it's like they're the only people that are going about life with the diagnosis yeah so then it's like that kind of reinforces it of like they're the only people like the only people that you would meet I guess that would know that they were autistic and ADHD is those people so then in your head you're like oh well everyone that I've met that's autistic is a young white boy so maybe it's just young white boys and it kind of goes like it goes on for such a long time like now I think we're seeing a wave of like yeah people in their 20s 30s 40s getting a diagnosis and

realizing for themselves and you know whether that's medical diagnosis or self-diagnosing or all of these things like but they're realizing later in life and I think that's amazing that we're like catching all of these people that were missed but I still don't know if we're getting any better at picking up the girls like the Elliott three like I don't yeah I still it's almost like it's like yeah, it's amazing that we're finding out now, but we need to fix it. So we don't have to find out. Like the next group of people don't have to find out in their 20s. They find out at the same time.

Yeah, it's a really like tricky one, I think, to fix without, they basically just need to like redo the whole research and the whole diagnostic criteria, I guess. It honestly sounds like that. And also like to avoid that grief that you spoke about. But from what you've said, it's like, yeah, it doesn't account for differences in gender in sex, in ethnicity, in really anything. And then it also sounds like they kind of haven't adapted it for like a new generation that has a new environment, like social media, like technology.

And something you said really stood out for me there. It was going online and following a certain influencer or following a certain fashion company. That is a whole new way of kind of processing our environment and how symptoms might show up. And I think that that profile that we spoke about is only going to be exacerbated if you don't have those nuances, not just for different groups, but for different generations that are also growing up more aware of it. The final thing that I think is actually really interesting, if you've ever spent much time looking into neurodivergence, ADHD, autism, but autism in particular, the idea of masking is really fascinating. And your book is unmasked. Fabulous title, big shout out to that.

But can you explain what that means? Because I think that a lot of the time, and this is one of my biggest pet peeves with discussions in the mental health community, is that terms that actually have a real clinical and personal meaning for people get adapted to mean something a lot more colloquial and a lot more every day. So for people who've maybe heard that term don't know what it means, what does it mean to mask? What does it mean to unmask, I guess, as well? Yeah, so masking put very kind of simply is covering up your neurodivergent traits to appear more neurotypical. So it was typically and like first used by the autistic community. So basically covering up your autistic traits to appear illistic or non-autistic.

But I guess it's kind of, yeah, spread out to be used more widely by the neurodivergent community. But I guess the important thing is to say like it's not a choice a lot of the time. Like it's a safety thing of like I have grown up learning that I have to behave a certain way to be accepted to avoid being ostracized like to get through situations like and I think yeah it's both it's both conscious behaviors and like subconscious or unconscious behaviors. So it can be things that are super simple like for example as an autistic person I struggle with eye contact like eye contact to me just it feels like I'm literally you're staring into my soul like it feels so unconsored. comfortable. But when I was growing up, I was told you have to look at people in the eye when you're speaking to them. Like that's a polite thing to do. Like, look at me when I'm talking to you. Show me that you're listening to me. All of these things. So I just learn, okay, that's the right thing to do talking to people. So I would just force myself to do that. And that's just the way that I learned to behave, even though that's not a natural thing for me at all. But I almost didn't know

at that point that it wasn't a natural thing for me because I didn't know that I was autistic. So it was like, oh, everyone must find it as uncomfortable. And everyone must just force themselves to do it because it's polite so I've got to do that as well. Interesting. So it can be like things as simple as that all the way through to things like the things that you're talking about. So we kind of touched on like before the special interest that autistic people have where you'd have like one topic that you like a ride and die for basically like you're

obsessed with this topic. You love it. You are so interested in it. But you might have learned that if you talk about it all the time, then people are like, God, can we talk about something else please? like, oh, not this again. Like, so you've learned to do the small talk that other people do, or you've learned that, I don't know, at high school,

like when you're a teenager, like, oh, it's, we're supposed to talk about the boys that we fancy and we're supposed to talk about the clothes that we wear. And so I'll talk about those things instead because that people like me if I talk about those things. And like, yeah, it's like a whole range of experiences. And it's something that is so, I guess, ingrained as well. Like, for me, I guess I thought,

when I got my diagnosis that I was like woohoo like I'm unmasked now like I can be myself like I've learned that I'm ADHD I've learned that I'm autistic like here we go like I can be myself but still like to this day I mask so so heavily like now I'm I'm masking probably I'm like speaking in a way like my natural tone of voice is quite like blunt and quite monotonous whereas I've learned that that's not well received by it's not easy for people to listen to it's not easy to get my point across so I've kind of learnt to speak in a more up and down way in a more bubbly way but it's not me I'm not come on this call and being like I need to you know come on Ellie like let's put our best accent on and talk in this certain way it's just a natural thing that when I talk to people it it

comes out like this now because it's so ingrained in the way that I am and I think yeah that's something that I underestimated so much of like how difficult it would be to unmask like I think I was like you know I've got the answers now like here we go like let's be ourselves and and it's like actually no like it's it's so I don't even know who's under there really because I've spent my whole life being yeah some like being someone else and copying the people around me and doing what I've been told to do

and it's like I don't even know how to be like it's so much easier to slip into this character that has been so defined and you've had 24 years of practicing this character to then actually being yourself which is like your real self is so much more like I don't know how to explain this like there's no black and white, really. It's very much more grey areas.

It's very nuanced. It's very flowing. Like, we're all, like, kind of fluid. Whereas that character was clearly defined. Like, this is what Ellie likes. This is what Ellie doesn't like. This is how Ellie behaves. This is how Ellie doesn't behave.

So it's so much easier to fall into that. Like, you've got the rules of how to behave. Whereas if you're trying to actually, I guess it's the same for everybody. When you're trying to be yourself, it's, you don't know exactly what that looks like. But I think it's the same for unmasking of like, I know that I naturally speak in a certain way

when I'm around other people. But how do I, like, I don't know how I speak naturally because I don't speak to myself when I'm at home on my own. Do I? Like, that's when I'm the most unmanced is when I'm at home on my own, not being perceived by other people, not interacting with other people. But then I'm not having conversations then because I'm on my own. So it's like, how do I even get to know that kind of thing?

But yeah, I guess it's, that's the kind of a very long explanation, but basically covering up your neurodivorgent traits to appear neurotypical. And a lot of the time it's like, done without realizing or done for safety. Or I think it's like important to point out as well that like I'm quite lucky that I'm able to unmask in certain ways because I'm very like non-threatening, I guess.

Like I'm a small white woman. I, you know, I have got pretty privilege. I'm like quite slim. I'm quite small. Whereas like a six foot five black man can't do that in the same way that I can because where I'm stood outside rocking backwards and forwards,

feeling stressed out and that's like, oh, look at this poor young lady who's having a difficult time. Whereas if a black man does the same thing, it's like he's getting aggressive, he's being dangerous, like that could be like,

you know, that could be a real risk for his safety. It could end up in him being imprisoned. It could end up getting in really like dangerous situation. So unmasking is like a necessary thing for us to do to be able to be healthy because it is so draining, like covering yourself up all of the time without realizing. But it's also a huge privilege to be able to do that as well because it can be like perceived in different ways for different people

depending on what you look like. It can, you know, be, yeah, like even me. Sometimes I've had times where I've been super tired and I've had loads going on. So I've been more en masse and I've kind of spoken. more bluntly to people without realizing just that I'm kind of my tank is so empty that I don't have it in me to like cover it up anymore and people have been like you know you're being rude like why are you being off with me and I'm like I'm not being off with you I'm just like all I've got in me to do right now is

communicate in the most concise and like natural way whereas that can like be end up in people thinking that you're behaving in a certain way and yeah I think it's a it's a it's both like the thing that I guess a lot of people are aiming for being able to unmask but it's also comes with like dangers for certain people and it comes with being misunderstood and like maybe being kind of yeah yeah misunderstood I guess further discriminated against yeah I think that's the thing like that's so interesting when you said that I was like I actually had never thought about that before I've never thought about that and I think it's such an interesting thing once again an argument to retire the profile of like we it's it's so linked to not just misogyny like we've spoken about like racism like

prejudice in so many in so many like intricate ways and I think also because we as a society have really been taught from a young age how you are supposed to act which has contributed to the masking right there is a

I think very defined formula of like correctness and politeness that people are taught from a very young age that also means that not only have you kind of forced yourself to take upon what sounds like a character what sounds like a persona no wonder you don't know who's underneath that. You've been method acting for 24 years. Like, method acting to like an A plus standard, like, to the point where doctors couldn't even see through it.

Like, that's kind of, like, insane that that's just, that's, like, so hard for me to even comprehend how exhausting that must be. But I think it also, from what I'm hearing from you, comes from this idea that we actually don't know a lot as a general population about what this looks like because of how we've been taught to see it. So that kind of leads to my next question, which is like, what are some of the elements of neurodivergence that you think there needs to be more conversations around that is excluded from the narrative that is maybe less comfortable to speak about or people are less informed about, not because it's rare just because we aren't having conversations about it. Yeah, I think, so in the book, I have like, the first couple of chapters are where I go through, like, the kind of, the kind of, scientific basics of like what actually is ADHD, what actually is autism and what is the diagnostic criteria that a doctor will go through to to decide if you have it or not. But then the next chapter after that is like translating those traits to how they show up in real life. Because I think that's where the education is missing in society of like we understand to a

certain level the traits like on paper. But we don't understand how that translates to real life experience, especially in people that aren't the young white boys. So like one example is literal thinking is I think one that we all know that autistic people are literal thinkers. But the way that we've been told of that is like that they don't understand jokes or we don't understand sarcasm or we don't understand like sayings, you know, or it's like, I don't know, break a leg and stuff like that. And they're the examples that are given on like the medical websites and stuff like that. but actually literal thinking and literal processing for me means that I take words as gospel

like if someone tells me something I will believe it because they've told me it so I take it very literally that it must be true so even if you know someone when I was younger my parents couldn't say McDonald's out loud because if they said like oh maybe we'll you know if you're good maybe we'll get a McDonald's on the way home I'd be like but you said if I was good, we could have McDonald's and I've been good, so we need to go and get McDonald's.

You know, like, I would take it very, like, literally what they said. But also, like, it goes the other way of, like, if you haven't told me something, I won't know it to be true because I'm a very literal person. So whereas other people might assume that something's, like, going on in the background or, like, that someone else has got something going on, for example, or that things are happening.

if you don't tell me something, then I don't know it. So like, for example, like recently, my dad's had quite a lot going on at work. And like the rest, like, my mum will be like, you know, if he's stressed at home, it's because he's got a lot going on at work. But I'm like, but if he doesn't tell me, you know, other people might be able to think, oh, he's acting different. Maybe something's causing him to act different. Whereas I'm like, but if you don't tell me that you've got a lot going on at work, I don't know that you've got a lot going on at work. So I'm thinking, why is my dad not talking to me or why is my dad seeming stress? Like, what's going on?

Like, I'm trying to solve that problem. But I don't have the information because no one has said your dad's got a lot on his plate at the moment. So it's that, like, you know, people think, oh yeah, I understand the autistic people, literal thinkers. But it's like, okay, no, but you think that I can't understand sarcasm. But actually, it's that I can only process the world with the information that I am, like, physically given, like in black and white, basically.

So I think that's like, yeah, people don't understand how the traits actually show up in real life. So I think that's like a big one that I have tried to kind of go through each trait and that way of being like, okay, this is what we think it is and this is how it actually shows up for people. And then I think another really big one, especially with ADHD is RSD, which is rejection sensitive dysphoria. and it's basically like real bad emotional dysregulation and it's like this basically very extreme response in response to kind of perceived or real rejection. So if you think that someone's upset with you or you think that you're being rejected

or you think that you haven't done a good job or anything is like pointing you in the direction of some sort of perceived rejection, then it's like a full body. Like it feels like the world is closing in on you because you've just been rejected in that way. And I think that's a big one as to why so many women don't get diagnosed or they do throw the anxiety card or the depression card

because all they're seeing, again, is these like extreme emotional reactions and they're like hormones, anxiety, like all of these things. Or like, or BPD as well. Like, yeah. That would be another one where I'm like, that slots in. Yeah. So I actually, yeah, when I, so before I got to my actual diagnosis,

when I kind of got to the point where I was like, hmm, anxiety's not quite right, but I didn't have the answers yet. I actually went through, there was like a couple months where I was convinced that I had BPD. I was like, I started researching online and that was the first thing that came up.

Like, you know, mood swings, going from being really high to being really low, like kind of irrational behavior. And like, when someone's leaving, like, you know, having abandonment. and I was like, that's me. I was like, all of these things are me. I found the answer. Like, I've got BPD and I was like literally going to my doctors. I was like, I need to be referred for a BPD assessment. Like I've got BPD like, I found the answer. This is it. And they're like,

no, Ellie, it's not. Like that's not you. And I was like, no, but it is. It is. And like, I mean, I guess it isn't. But yeah, the experiences, like I read those traits. And I was like, that's me, that's me, that's me. And it's literal as well, like you said. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think what makes it even more, I was actually having this conversation with a friend yesterday, what makes it even more difficult is that things like BPD and C PTSD are caused by trauma. And growing up as an undiagnosed autistic person

or undiagnosed person with ADHD, that is trauma in itself. You're masking all the time, you're living in a world that's not designed for you. You're constantly misunderstood. You're constantly told that what you're, like if you're yourself, it's wrong. You're constantly told that you're lazy or that you're sensitive or all of these things.

like growing up as an undiagnosed neurodivergent person is trauma and these other conditions that are so similar in their experiences are caused by trauma so it's like how the heck are you supposed to disentangle like it's so common for people to have a combination of all of these things like I am almost certain that I've got C PTSD because just the things that like happened in my teenage years and the way that I respond now to things that happen versus like it's not, I'm not just dealing with the thing that's happening. I'm dealing with all of the stuff that happened

when I was undiagnosed, but the actual experience it, like it'd be really difficult for me to get diagnosed with CPTSD because they could probably explain away all of the experiences that I was having through ADHD emotional dysregulation, rejecting sensitive dysphoria, through autism, like being hypervigilant.

That's, again, like, I'm autistic, so I have, yeah, I'm autistic so I pick up on things really easily and I'm really sensitive to sound and I'm really sensitive to change and I like to have a routine and all of those things also are behaviours that people with CPTSD would show because it's hypervigilance,

it's protecting yourself, it's all of those things like it is just a mind field of like overlap and complication and I think yeah that's a really kind of big thing that a lot of people face of like what is going on here and a lot of the time it's probably a bit of a combination of everything.

So interesting as well because it's only been recently that people can actually get more than one diagnoses. Like it used to be like here you have bipolar disorder, you have borderline personality disorder, you have autism, there's your box, sit in it now. And I think you point to a really interesting point that a lot of people don't understand, which is that your experience with mental illness can actually create further mental illness and actually can be a trigger for things like complex post. post-traumatic stress disorder.

I think we often think about that in particular. I really like that you brought that in. We think about trauma in the sense of something really, really terrible, external, violent happening to you. But trauma is just like the disruption of security and peace and, you know, safety. That is as simple as it is. And that can come from so many different things, including like an experience of growing up,

in, as you said, a world that is not designed for you. That is so traumatic. And it's not just one of it. It's a continuous accumulation of stress, of anxiety, of, as you said, masking. So I'm glad that you brought that up. And I think it really leads into this next thing, which is, if I'm sure, I'm so sure that there is probably someone listening to this right now who was like, holy shit. Why is this describing me? I thought I had BPD.

Everyone told me I had anxiety. I said rude things when I was a teenager without realizing it, without even consciously knowing. So what would your advice be to someone who thinks that they have ADHD, they have autism, they're in the same position as you, now that they're an adult in their 20s. Like you said, there's going to be so many more people who are coming through in the next few decades who could have received a diagnosis at 3, 9, 10.

but aren't going to do so until they're 20. What's your advice as someone who kind of lived that? Yeah, I think it's a really, really tricky one now because because of the fact that so many more people are realizing, it means that services and support just aren't there. Like the waiting list to get an actual diagnosis are so long. It's so tricky to get diagnosed. And also the medical professionals are kind of a lot of the time behind us

in our understanding. like they were trained however many years ago when they were at university or whatever it might be. They were taught the stereotypical diagnostic criteria. They were taught that it was more common in cis boys than it wasn't anybody else. You know, they maybe don't have the understanding to be able to see your experiences and see them for what they are. That's if you're even kind of lucky enough to get in the room with somebody. like now waiting lists are really long and like private assessments are really expensive like it's a really tricky time at the moment because it's like so many people are having these realizations and then they

they can't really go away and do anything with that so I would say like my first point is like that self-diagnosis is completely valid and is kind of necessary in the current world that we live in I think with ADHD it's slightly different because medication can be helpful and obviously you would need to see and have a medical diagnosis and see a professional for that. But other than that, like, you are the expert of your own experiences. If you're going through all of this information, if you're doing all of these online tests and you're seeing that, yeah, this is right for me,

this is who I am, then you can tell you, you can give yourself that answer. You don't need to have like a green tick of approval from a medical professional because it's just, you know, in an ideal world, yes, we would all be able to go and see a psychiatrist and get those answers, but we don't live in an ideal. world. We live in a world where it's impossible to do that for a lot of people at the moment, and it's a privilege to be able to do that. So, like, firstly, yeah, that's completely a valid

thing to do. And also, like, remembering that it's not a piece of paper from a doctor that changes your life. It's changing your life that changes your life. So it's like, I, you know, anyone can change the way that they're working. They can work more flexibly. They can give themselves more rest. They can honor their sensory needs more. They can wear, ear defenders when they're in noisy venues they can buy planners that will help them manage their time better they can you know all of these things that are the reason that my life is so much better now anyone can do it doesn't need a doctor to go yes you are autistic yes you have ADHD for you to be able to do those things so I think it's really you know there's a this narrative at the

moment that like oh everyone's self-diagnosing and you have to you know you don't know but like you do that for yourself and I would say the main thing as well that helps you know me in terms of like validation and actually understanding and feeling comfortable in knowing that that was what was going on for me um was looking like searching out the experiences of other people that had similar lived experience to mine so yeah like we were saying when i was reading through the diagnostic criteria there were some things where i was like hmm you know maybe that's me but it doesn't 100% sound like me but then i would go on to social media and i would find another 20-something year old woman talking about her experience of that thing and I'd be like oh yeah that's

just like me I do that I'm exactly the same as that because obviously if we're both the same age the same gender and we have similar interests then the way that our traits show up are going to be more similar as well so I think that's a really helpful thing to do you know if you're a woman look for the experiences of women if you're a person of color look for the experiences of people of color if you're a mother look for the experiences of other mothers like look for people who have similar, like a wider range of similar experience to yours, then the way that their traits show up is probably more likely to going to be more similar to yours as well.

So I think that's a really helpful, that for me, that was like what kind of tipped me over the edge from, hmm, maybe, maybe I should look into these things to, yeah, I'm confident that this is what's going on for me, was seeing other people who were similar to me talking about their experiences because they were obviously a lot more similar to mine. So I would say that that is like the best thing that I could recommend. It's like a far from ideal situation because it's like I obviously would love for everybody

to be able to get the actual answers and the support that they need and the medication that they need for ADHD if they choose to do that. But it's a tricky time at the moment where these services are just overloaded. So I think just like knowing like that it's okay to self-diagnose, that it's okay to put these things in place for yourself without someone. telling you that you're allowed to do that. And then also seeking out the experience. And even like connecting with other neurodivergent people where you can. Like for me, obviously I'm kind of very public about it. It's my job to talk about it online.

But the friends I have made through doing that and having autistic friends, ADHD friends, has literally been the best thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life. Like I've always had such a hard time with friendships. Like school was awful for me. Like I think I massively underestimate it actually where it's been one of those things where I've just had to survive it. So I just, I'm like, we don't talk about school.

We don't think about it. Like, I dropped out of school. I had, I was bullied awfully. Like, I just had an awful time. And I guess I just kind of got used to the fact that, okay, maybe I'm never going to find a friendship group. Maybe I'm never going to fit in anywhere because it just doesn't seem to have happened up to now.

Whereas now I'm like, oh, no, I actually can find people that I relate to. I was just not finding the right people. And so I think if you can, join communities. I have another Instagram account called We Are Onmast, which is a community for neurodivergent people, and we try and set up an event. It's kind of on the back burner at the moment because I've been writing a book and stuff. But yeah, hopefully we'll be doing more like online events and things like that. And even just looking through the comments, you'll be able to find people who are in a similar position to you. And I think finding those friendships is like a huge thing that you can do for validation as well.

A hundred percent. I honestly love that. not just, I obviously don't have ADHD or autism, but like even from my perspective, if you can relate to that, like, the best is yet to come. Like, you're not going to find your people in a high school of 600 people, 600 people. Like, maybe you will, but the world is so much bigger and broader and wider than that. You have no idea what's coming and not in an anxious sense and like the most beautiful sense. And also, I really like that point because I think in the cycle,

the point you made earlier in like the psychology community there is a big fuss around like ADHD is so overdiagnosed everyone's on you know riddalen or adderall whatever and I'm like okay great are you their doctor no so you have no opinion on this you literally you're someone on the internet who has made their mind up around what this does and doesn't look look like and I think that is so insulting and it's additionally the thing of like I always think about the comparison to depression. You can know you're depressed without a doctor telling you and you can do things in your life to mitigate that. What is to say that you can't do that for other things as well? And obviously medication comes into it. You might need a helping hand in that sense, but

it doesn't mean that you have to wait until someone goes, yeah, you're like approved for a diagnosis to be making the changes that you think are going to benefit your life. So I think that's such a beautiful message. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when they're is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong.

Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at It podcast.

I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed cracks. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth?

Or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, our Heart Radio app.

Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself. at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth.

You doctored this particular test twice in someone, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for.

Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Gillespie and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. One final question that I would love for you to answer is you've just released a book. I know we've talked about it so much. And I honestly hearing your story of being like I had to drop out of high school, I was bullied, I never thought I was going to get that far. And that's, and here you are now is like, honestly quite emotional. So what would you tell that person, that kind of younger

version of you who was really struggling for answers? Yeah, I think a big one is like, focus on the people that love you rather than the ones that don't. So I think like, especially through high school, I think like obviously I didn't know that I was masking. I didn't know that I was autistic or that I had ADHD. But I always had, it was almost like an internal thing where I always tried to become friends with the popular people. I think it was like this innate need to fit in,

this innate need to be liked to be approved of, like to be validated, that I would always, like try and be friends with the popular group and it would always end badly for me like I had so many time I could probably point to like 10 different times in my life where I've sat down with my mum and she's been like Ellie why do you always try to be friends with like the loud girls the popular girls like they're not like you like you're you're soft you're gentle like it's it doesn't end well for you like why and it was almost like I think like all kind of women and people marginalized for their gender that have gone through high school know that feeling of like it's a rock and a hard place like

It's like the plastics in Mingo. Like if you're friends with them, then it's life as hell. But if you're not friends with them, then it's even worse. So I think it was that thing of like, I would always try to be liked by everybody and by the popular people. Whereas actually, if I'd have got there on my first day in year seven and gone, I actually really like maths. I actually really like puzzles.

I, you know, maybe I should make some friends that maybe other people are going to call us weird. Maybe we're not going to have the nicest time either. But I'm at least going to have these three. solid friends that we all love each other for our weirdness and our geekiness and our strangeness and all of whatever it might be like that would have been it still wouldn't have been easy right because no one has a nice time at high school especially if you're like different in any way but at least i would have had like that solid group of friends that would have loved me for me whereas i was so like focused on making everybody like me or trying to fit in with the popular

the people that I kind of denied myself the opportunity to make friends that might not have been as popular, but they would have been friends. So I think that would be my thing of like, focus on finding people that love you for you rather than being like, it's that thing of like, don't be everyone's cup of tea, be like someone's shot of whiskey or I don't know whatever the saying is of like basically like. Oh, I've never heard that, but I love that. I'm going to slow that bro. I don't even know if that's right. We've made it up now. We'll go with it. But yeah, yeah, kind of that thing of like trying to focus on finding a place rather than being like mass liked I think would have been a good one for me to know and I think almost like I think it's one of those

things where it's like it's a worst thing that someone can say to you at the time but over time you realize that it's so true of just like trusting the process like I genuinely thought that because I didn't go to uni because I dropped out of school like that was it I was never going to get anywhere in life like I was going to be miserable I was going to do low paid jobs I was never never going to be successful, I was going to be overworked, like when actually, you know, I've been really lucky, I'm really grateful for what's happened, but I've not needed a degree for any of this. Like, I've not needed high school qualifications for any of this. It has all worked out in the end. And like maybe it could have worked out a lot sooner, but I think just like trusting that you don't

have to do things the way that everyone else is doing them. Like you can do what is better that you drop out and you're still healthy and you're, well, you're working on becoming healthy again and you're looking after yourself and you're being gentle with yourself, then forcing yourself to do things because you think that you should do them and you think that's the only way that you're going to achieve anything and all of that stuff. And I guess, yeah, redefining the path and redefining what success is, I think was, because I think, yeah, at school there's so much pressure of like you have to be the top grade student. You have to go to uni.

You have to get a good job. And that doesn't work for everybody. Like life happens. And also that life is not the life that everyone wants. So I think if someone would have been like, it's okay if you're not. top of the class. It's okay if you don't go to uni. That would have been a really helpful thing for me to know as well. Oh, trust the process. I love that. Also, totally true. Like, it's, there is such a different path than the jobs that we might be working at like 20 years probably don't exist yet.

What you and I doing did not exist 20 years ago. Like, maybe what I'm doing, like technically podcast did exist, but not to this level. Like, the world is evolving and I think that's so important. I always think is like I'm most grateful for the things that I wanted and didn't get. Like I'm so grateful for the things that I like begged for that I thought were going to make me happy, like that internship, that like, you know, university entry, that boyfriend. And I didn't get them. And at the time I was like, I'm so miserable. This is the end of my life. And everything, I know, I hate saying everything happens for a reason because I don't think it does. But there are some things that happen for you, not to you. I think that's.

like a beautiful way to end things. So I want to say thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for being one of our guests for this like wonderful December holiday series. It's just like such a beautiful perspective one that I think more people need to hear. And I'm so so thankful that you're able to make time to talk to us. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been so nice to have a very nice, wholesome chat to start the day for me. Yeah. And to end the day for me. Yeah. And to end the day for me. Look at that. It's like a beautiful bookmark for our days. I'm going to put all of Ellie's links in the description here. Please go and buy her book. If you, if you resonate with any of this, if you have a friend, a family member who this sounds like them. Buy it for them. It's Christmas time.

Why the fuck not? You know, share the joy around. Share the information around. And as always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcast, Spotify. Wherever you're listening right now, share it with a friend if you think they'd like. like it. And if you have any further questions, comments, if you have an opinion on this episode or an episode's suggestion, please feel free to follow us at that psychology podcast. And we'll see you again later this week. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this.

He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick you here. unpack what went down and try to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. It was a wild year.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest, conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the

world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the iHeard radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.