The Psychology of your 20s - 150. Sex is mental, not just physical ft. Gina Gutierrez

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

Often when we think about sex, we only think about the physical. We only think about the other person's enjoyment or what sex should  look like rather than what it could look like. Many of us have a very outdated understanding of what good, even great sex feels like and even less of an idea around how to achieve greater levels of pleasure and intimacy. In today's episode, we bring on the incredible Gina Gutierrez, co-founder of the audio erotica app, Dipsea to discuss how we can use story telling, fantasy, self exploration and mental imagery to have better sex in our 20s. We uncover the psychology behind why we love romance novels, how libido and desire changes (and improves) as we reach our 30s and some of the outdated, misconceptions about sex that we need to debunk. Listen now!    For 30 days of Dipsea for FREE follow this link: https://www.dipseastories.com/PSYCH20  Download Dipsea here: https://www.dipseastories.com/  Follow The Psychology of your 20s: https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/       See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s. and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners,

wherever you are in the world. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode. Today is one that I am super, super excited about. Something that we don't talk about a lot on this show is sex and pleasure. And I think that it is really important to discuss. So I don't know why we haven't spoken about it before. but when I heard about this company a couple of years ago, I immediately downloaded their app.

It's an amazing experience. And additionally, I think really aligns with a lot of the values we promote on this show. We talk a lot about psychology, obviously. And I think like everything in our 20s, sex in our 20s is also based in a lot of psychology. So today we are going to talk about it. And I've brought on a wonderful, fabulous guest to join us, one of the co-founders of Dipsy, Gina Gutierrez. Hi. Wow, I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah, thanks for coming along. Can you kind of talk us through what we're talking about today, but also what Dipsy is? Because I think one of the big things about sex in our 20s is that we kind of don't really have like a guidebook. We kind of just go all in. No one's really telling us what to do and we can feel quite disconnected. So where does kind of Dipsy sit in that kind of space? Yeah.

So Dipsy is an app for audio erotica and the stories are all original and we write them ourselves in studio. They're sex positive. They're feminist. They're really fun. And they show what sex could kind of be like realistically but also really aspirationally.

And it's obviously 15 minutes of fun when you're listening to an episode, but they're also amazing to hear how sex could happen or what you might say or what a date could be like that you might really want to be on, or how you might enter a sex club for the first time, right? Like they actually do teach you a little bit about how you might experience things in your own life. And we love that. We love creating a guidebook in a world where there are not a lot of guidebooks. So Dipsy is a brainchild of kind of the combination of what a sexual wellness experience could feel like

and also like a really great storytelling studio could feel like. And it is both. Yeah. And where did you get the idea from? So if you haven't kind of dipped your toes into audio erotica, I think it's amazing. Obviously, as someone who works in like the audio space, I think stories and like really provide us with like an insane ability

to firstly be educated, but also to connect, not just with others but with ourselves. So yeah, where did you get this idea from? think it's like so smart. Well, thank you. So my co-founder and I started the company when we were 27, and I'd been thinking about these ideas since I was in college, so since I was 18. And I remember one of my really good friends coming back to our dorm, and she had just had sex the night before with this guy that she was really into. And she came back and she was like, I really like him, but I just, the sex isn't that good. Why wouldn't that just be automatic if I really like him,

shouldn't the sex be good? So I started asking her questions about the experience, and when I asked her the question, what are you thinking about when you're having sex? She looked at me with this blank stare, and she was like, wow, I really don't know. And something about that moment really struck me that she was so focused on her physical experience, she wasn't thinking about her mental experience at all. So I think many of us understand our brains holding us back from good sex. It's like, I'm stressed out, so that makes my sex drive lower, or I'm preoccupied by a conversation I had earlier, and so I'm kind of dissociated, or I'm overly focused on what I look like or what I'm doing, or I'm, you know, struggling in all these ways. These are actually

like psychological barriers, but we're really not focused on what ways our brain could really support us and having amazing sex. And so how do we have our own bank of fantasy that we lean on? And how do we have language that we use, that we like to hear and guide someone and giving more to us? or that we like to say because we like to say it. And these are these amazing unlocks that really make sex so much better. And storytelling is such an amazing space for that. But the reason that we started it when we were 27 is because common headspace were coming up. And common headspace were showing that you could make an amazing audio experience

that was super immersive and that wasn't there just to teach you something like podcasts we're doing at the time, but to change how you felt. And I firmly believe that storytelling can change how you feel, and I really wanted to make stories that I could feel like that. And I had this hunch that audio erotica could really be this amazing, immersive experience that was imagination forward. So you could imagine kind of your own house on the blueprint that we were giving you with our stories, what characters looked and sounded like, what you looked and sounded like in that story. Where you were, how it all comes together is really up to you to create. And there's something really, really powerful about that that I think is really, really, really. empowering you really are in control yeah i absolutely love that and totally fully agree i really think it's

fascinating what you said around how we recognize the the intersections between our mental framework and our psychology and the sex we're having but we don't recognize it in the moment right we think about it as a barrier not as an enabler so how can we kind of leverage that understanding of of how our mind's working and how our psychology impacts our physical sensations to have good sex in our 20s. I think that's like the golden question that I get asked so much. There's like countless episodes, podcasts about this, you know, articles, people want to know how to have good sex in their 20s. Yeah.

Well, I think first of all, it's answering what good sex is. What makes sex good? I think is a question we don't often ask ourselves. And I think it's a very personal question. and what I would encourage people to think about is start noticing what feels good to you across all avenues of your life. And what I mean by that is I think we have these stories or ideas of what feels good. Like binge watching my favorite show feels good or seeing this group of friends feels good. But then when you do binge watch that show or you do see that group of friends,

you're turning off the TV or you're driving home and you're thinking like, oh, I'm kind of tired. Or I'm kind of just like feeling a little ick or I'm feeling a little bit out of my body. It's really interesting to notice that these things we might have stories about that make a sense. feel good actually don't make us feel good. On the other hand, there are many things that you might do that really surprise you with how good they feel. Maybe there's a new friend that you're spending time with and every time you leave them, you're like, wow, I feel energized, I feel excited, I feel like I laughed, I feel like I was funny, whatever. And you notice that and it feels good. And so I think it's a really good place to start with just being like, listen to the signals of your body of like, this feels good.

I would like more of this, where this actually doesn't feel good. And you might be surprised by what some of those things are. I think we're very distracted. We have screens all around us. We're moving from place to place. We're busy with our jobs. And if we aren't listening to those signals, how can we listen to what those signals might be like in the bedroom? So that's like baseline where I'd start. Yeah. I think solo sex is also kind of where to start. I mean, the American sex education system certainly doesn't talk about masturbation the way I think it should be talked about, where it's a really, by default, safe place for you to explore what kind of touch you like. what you like to fantasize about, pacing, order, you know, you get to start thinking through

what your ropes are. You know your own ropes. And I don't know, I think especially I hear this at Dipsy with heterosexual women who are in partnerships with men who kind of almost assume that men come pre-coded with knowledge about sex. And I can guarantee you that no one comes pre-coded with that. But men often have the guidebook of porn. And that comes with a whole mixed set of messages, some maybe interesting and some really harmful. And so if he or they or she is coming with their own ideas of what sex is and what good sex is, you too need to come to the table with your ideas of what good sex is. So you feel empowered in that and you can stand firm in that.

And the only way you can really do that, I think, is by exploring just by yourself. And so I think like round one, like step one is what does the self-touch or the solo sex experience feel like? Yeah. I, again, I just keep parroting exactly what you're saying. I really, really agree with that. It's really interesting because when I like first started having sex like in my teen years and then even in my like very early 20s, I used to just like define sex as like penetration. And I was literally talking to someone about this yesterday where I was like, I used to be like, all right, it's good sex if like it's penetrative and he can't. And nothing else matters because it's all about like pleasuring them. And it's so interesting because I think when I started to be like really move into this like self-exploration phase, I bought a vibrator. It's the best thing I ever, probably the best $70 I ever spent. And then suddenly it was like not only was I having better sex, but I was attracting better partners.

And I think it also came from this like confidence thing as well and this like sense of self of like, wow, I am having better sex with myself than I've ever had with someone else. So I only want someone to elevate that experience. Yeah, I think if you talk to the average, I mean, maybe this is a little agist, but I think if you talk to the average 40 or 50 year old about sex being this playground to discover who you are and how confident you can be in this world and how much you love yourself, they'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if you say that to a younger person, they're more likely to be like, yeah, totally. Like, this is this underused space where if I have some more, if I pay more attention to what I can do in this space, I might like take that with me out in the world. And I think when people listen to Dipsy, they sometimes say that, they'll say, like, I don't even need to listen right before I have sex. Sometimes I just walk out the street and I'm like, I'm walking with like a skip in my step. I'm feeling good.

I'm like bouncing down the sidewalk. I'm smiling at strangers. Like, that feeling feels like feeling alive. And so I think sex is just one way to be like, how can I like really feel alive and here in this world? And that's, I mean, like, that's so worthwhile, you know? Like, that's it right there in my mind. Yeah. And I think that kind of gets to this point right where it's like you don't need to be,

I think you don't need to be having sex to be experiencing pleasure. I think we often put sex on this pedestal. there's this weird conundrum I found where there's like this shame around having sex but it used to be a lot of shame around having too much sex and now I hear a lot of people see a lot of people with my personal life through this podcast who come to me and are like I'm experiencing a lot of self-shame because I'm having too little. Yeah, classic. Yeah, because I feel like everyone is selling sex to me as this like empowering thing and that I

need to have all of these sexual experiences in my 20s to like form the foundation. of having good sex in my 30s or having these stories. Where do you think that comes from? Because that's something I'm really fascinated by. There are so many shoulds in this space. It's incredible. And I think it's really interesting to me how numbers obsessed we are about sex. We really try and quantify it.

Like how many times a week is normal? What's healthy? What's good for my relationship? And what it all boils down to is all of us asking ourselves, like, am I normal? And it's the number one question. that we get asked all the time, like an investigation of whether I'm normal. And the answer is that there are so many different ways to be normal. But everyone is normal in that.

There's just like different roots to discovering, you know, what's going to work for you. And the shame around, you know, having too much, having too little, I see it as connected to the self-care movement too, which I think net net, very positive. It's wonderful that people have paid more attention to taking care of themselves and addressing when they're over-stressed or over-taxed. But when that starts to tip into, are you doing all this stuff? Are you meditating every day? These are these shoulds, actually. You're putting yourself into a new should space. And so I would, you know, really ask someone to reframe. It's like really not about quantity at all, unless that really

matters to you. It's the side if that really matters to you. But it's actually allowing other people to decide what matters to you. I think what really matters is what feels good to you. And so if you're having a little high-quality sex and whatever that means to you, that's amazing. Unless you feel like you want to be having more of it. Ask yourself that. Is that something that you care about? And start to like create your own ideas of what matters to you, not because anyone has, you know, other ideas that should weigh in on that. So there are going to be expectations in this space all over the place.

I think in relationships, their expectations, when you're single, their expectations. and it's hard to we are social human beings we look to others to help us understand how we move through this world and that's very natural but the shame around having you know two little sex I think now

is a little bit of like this new thing or like the former stigma was like you know you're out there and you're what are all that old fashioned sayings like you're too loose or too easy or whatever words were the words then and I think now the new fear that I hear from a lot of 20-year-olds, you know, 18 to 24 especially, is like, have I had enough?

Like, am I experienced enough? Is it shameful and embarrassing that I'm going out in the world without enough experience? And, oh my gosh, like, you don't need to put that upon yourself. I think that that is actually really getting to such a good point there of, like, the shoulds that accompany sex. And I remember talking to a friend the other day, and I was like, you know, you can have a lot of sex and not much of it can be good. Yeah. You know? Or you can be having sex with one person for your whole life.

And it's amazing. Like, I think that that numbers, that numbers descriptor, that numbers game you were talking about, I see that everywhere in like, oh, what's your body count as well? Totally. I'm surprised by how many people ask that question. I know. The body count thing is interesting. First of all, what a horrible phrase.

It's so bad. I know. I'm like, oh. And the fact that I think that it's like, was first used very much by man. And now it's one of those phrases where we just say it, but we don't actually think about what that actually means. Yeah, let's talk about what it actually means.

Like just right now, because I'm thinking about it for the first time in a long time, which is like sex is bodies and that we are these transactional physical beings and we just transact with one another and we handshake or have penetrative sex in this context and then we move on instead of having some sort of emotional, chemical, interesting interaction with someone, even if that's just purely a one-time moment. That doesn't mean that you're not having a human interaction with someone. Body count makes it sound so, yeah, your personhood is kind of erased from that completely.

Yeah, and I also think that when we think about body count in other aspects, maybe this is a bit of a stretch, but how it's used in like the military and to like accompany the idea of like dead bodies and like this and when they used it in that sense it was like oh what's your body count as this like medal of honor of like how many people have you like dominated killed it just i think is still very much this like descriptor of like to be celebrated the higher your body count the better and especially when we think about its origins in terms of a very historically excessively patriarchal misogynistic society this is normally what it was referring to anyhow we're off track, but I do think that it's like that language around sex really needs to go.

Yeah, and we're judgmental in both directions. I think we're judgmental of single people who have quote unquote too many partners and we're judgmental of long-term monogamous people who have had only one partner and like we're judgmental about whether that's, you know, better or worse, whether you learn more or less, whether you have more sexual experience or less. And I think all of it is just, you know, we're projecting our own insecurities about what's happening with everyone else. But all experiences are. normal and all experiences are valid if they're what you want. And again, it all comes back to what you want. But of course we struggle with that in sex, because I don't think a lot of people are asking us to

evaluate that very often. We don't really flex that muscle. Absolutely not. I also think it links back to very much where we learn sex from. You know, we talked about porn, but also in terms of our education system, the conversations that our friends are having. movies and I recently really was thinking about this in terms of also like your first sexual experience and how much that really determines how you see sex unless you unlearn it. And I think that that also, you know, I don't think most people's first sexual experience is particularly good. You know, it might not be terrible, but like you're kind of just fumbling through it.

and I think that if you think if your entire perception of sex is based off of one experience or like your first experience and how that went and you're not and that's never been challenged particularly what I was talking about before where it's like it's very penetration based and it's very much based on like I'm a heterosexual woman based on what the man wants that takes a long time to unlearned how do you think we can kind of start to unlearn that yeah it's interesting the the idea of, you know, well, I had oral sex and that's not sex, or these are like common things that you hear, you know, in the categorization or the quantifying of like what sex is and it all comes down to ignoring the feelings of it, just focus on the facts of it.

Your question is how do we move away from the idea that the first experience is like this, we overindex on it? I think just like how do we unlearn some of the early things we're talking about sex, the harmful things we're taught about sex, whether that's from our first sexual experience or from porn or from, I think, I think the education system is a bit different in Australia. We don't do amazing, but we, I think, do a little bit better. But even then, the American system is no system. Oh, wow. Okay, so going against zero there. But how do we unlearn some of those things? Yeah, you referenced really early on in the conversation that there aren't a lot of good guidebooks,

and that's something that we, at Dipsy, are very aware of. And I think it, right now, it puts the burden on people to do a lot of self-discovery to find out what they like, but also to like do some unlearning and to do some understanding of how consent can fold into their lives and kind of do the work of being a healthy, sex-positive sexual partner. And that's hard because I wish it was easier for people. It shouldn't have to be so difficult to kind of self-serve on the Internet to figure that out, especially because you might hit a lot of things that you don't want to see or aren't the right information. The internet is a wild west sort of resources. So I think finding sources that you trust really matters. And so at Dipsy, we hope to be one of those sources. You know, you trust the makers.

They're asking you to pay for this content. It is ethical content by default. If you're engaging with more classic visual pornography, pay for that content. That is the best and only way that you can really guarantee, that it is on the side of ethical porn versus you don't know it's genesis or how it's being made. that you are allowing yourself to expand your understanding what those resources are. Maybe you're really excited about fanfic on the internet

and you're like, this isn't teaching, this is just like the fluffy stuff about sex, it's not. Like you're actually doing active work and understanding what you like, what thematics feel exciting to you and what feels less exciting to you. And those are all resources that are available to you and many of them are actually fun and engaging

and don't feel like you're reading your 18th blog post about consent and still confused. You know, I won't. people to listen to a dipsy story and say like, oh, like, that actually wasn't so complicated. That didn't, like, kill the vibe that actually made it sound even sexier. You know, there's a spectrum from, like, consent to dirty talk, and there's, like, a huge in-between of, like, what it means to verbalize during sex. These are things that are so hard if you don't have examples of what that sounds like.

So people need more resources to figure that out before they're, like, out in the world. Some people are intrepid, and they're like, great, I'll figure that during sex, and they'll learn as I go. amazing. And there's other people that don't feel as comfortable doing that. Of course not. And so, you know, our hope is that there are more resources like Dipsy around and there, there are. But yeah, it's okay to take either path. I think like getting out there and learning is great. And doing the work to learn is also great. Again, like, what's your, what's your path? Everyone's going to have a different path. I love that you mentioned fanfic on the internet. I feel like that was such a introduction for me was like erotic like erotic literature and i remember being like oh my god

I feel so bad I had like um this one book at college and like I actually found it the other day and like the sex in it is so mild like it's so very mild and I was like wow like oh my gosh like this is insane and like I like had the page like dogged and like all that stuff and I'm like I do think that that is actually such a valid thing. Like, I don't know, everyone loves a little bit of a smutty novel. Yeah, it's amazing how many people now that it's getting a little bit more comfortable to talk about these things. You know, Dipsy's been around for five years, and I think five years ago people talked with

this less than they do now. Even, like, the new up-and-coming interest in, like, romance media, like Bridgeton, wouldn't have happened five years ago, which is cool to watch kind of that's happening. And I think part of it is, like, the pushback against misogyny, happening in our culture where it's like, cool. Like, you want to watch football? Amazing. Well, I want to watch a romance piece of media. And I want to watch Bridgeton.

And that's an equally valuable way of using my time. And it's not like chick lit. It's not like worse media. It's like great media that is fun and I love to consume. So I think a little bit of it is like a pushback on there aren't certain types of media that are like by nature worse or better. You actually just get to choose what you like, which I think is really empowering and awesome.

But yeah, we all have the dog-eared book. And we hit the dog-eared book, right? and that was in an era where you had to kind of hide it. Exactly. It's so interesting, though, because I distinctly remember my grandma having, like, do you guys have Mills and Boone? What is that? Okay, so Mills and Boone is like this, maybe it's just an Australian thing,

but it's like this series of, like, smart books, like sexy romance books for, like, the generation of my grandma Yeah. Or maybe even my mom. So like, and they all look exactly the same. And on the front will be like this 80s photoshopped image. And it'll be like the cowboy. Like a horse.

Yeah. Exactly. It would be like the cowboy and the runaway. Or like something like that. It will be like the mistress of Oman or like something. And it's just like, and it's just smart. And my grandma used to have them everywhere when we were kids. So it's interesting that I see.

still felt like shame around sex I think because I was like oh my god grandma that's so embarrassing um but it was so it's so funny because I think that it's just and it I think also she did feel a bit of like shame but then as she got older she was like oh I'm I'm I still feel sexual urges like I still feel pleasure wow that's really powerful to hear that from your grandmother that's really cool she was oh she's she's still alive I don't know why I was like I'm gonna say she was she is like a very empowered lady and I think it, you know, as she got older, that actually became more evident to me. Well, you know, when we were first starting to think about making dipsy not just an idea, but a company, we were looking at the romance novel industry and it's amazing. Like, it drives

the publishing industry. Like, it is the reason the publishing industry is afloat. Literally, Amazon had to create a different package in order to not lose money because romance novel consumers read so many of them that they were like literally taking Amazon out of business. The business model wasn't working. They needed to create a separate package for it. So there's like incredible, voracious demand for this content, but we weren't seeing that demand kind of trickle down to younger audiences. Why is that? Well, like, is the guy with the long hair on the horse, like really the model of what's sexy anymore? Is that it? There's all sorts of kind of baggage that was associated with a category that did really well for our moms and our aunts and our grandmothers. And that's

amazing. This is not new. This is just new ways of making this feel cool and content. And contemporary and like it is talking about sex the way that you might talk about it with your friends or like actually have it, you know, out in the world. So I think it's amazing that that existed, but I also think we should be aware that that was very much like relegated as this like silly little woman's thing, which happens a lot where either sex is very, very dangerous or sex is like this like silly, safe little interest. And those are like those are kind of the two places that it can be. You know, our understanding of what pleasure is is really, really, really limited. in the context of Western society.

You know, we've been taught to be good members of society and that our value is measured by what we make or what we do or by our success or maybe by how esteemed we are. And so we see pleasure as like a distraction to what matters most or worse, like a place of no return. Like if we focus on pleasure, we'll ignore all these more important parts of our lives. And so pleasure is generally seen as the stone where it's like allowed to exist if it feels guilty. Like you can have it, but you better feel guilty about it.

That's like the regulating factor. And I think the way that we treated romance novels for many, many decades was that. It's like, okay, you can have your silly little book. That's safe. But like, let's make you feel a little guilty about it to keep it in check. Because pleasure is seen as selfish. And pleasure is seen as, you know, you need to earn it. And the worst, worst case scenario, it's seen as dangerous.

We're like, once you get a taste, what will happen? And frankly, I think in the context of our patriarchical society, as you just called it out, if a woman knows what true pleasure is, why wouldn't she just leave her husband? Why wouldn't she break the family you did? Why would she be out discovering and exploring? Let's not even give her a taste, right? And those are the containers of thought that we still see. When we talk to our customers, we hear that all the time.

These are the things I'm afraid of. It's like, if I'm experiencing pleasure, I'm wasting time. Or, like, if I'm experiencing pleasure, that means someone else experiences less of it. Or if I work hard enough and get thin enough, then I deserve something. Like, we all know what that feels like. That second point that you just said then was like, like, I'd never been able to identify that. Which one? If I feel pleasure someone else or feel less.

Zero sum. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I'm shocked because I think that that is an attitude that I've had for a very long time. Yeah, definitely. Wow. That was like kind of my poem to me. People are probably listening to this being like, yeah, duh, that's not true.

But like, I think it was just the way that you were able to describe that. I guess that really, also, I want to say, you're so right when you were talking about the, you know, the cowboy with the long hair and how this generation is not particularly attracted to that depiction. And I really think, you know, that it comes down to people are more interested in a character psychologically nowadays. Say more. They don't want them to be, yeah, they don't want them to be, like, perfect. they want them to be, they want them to have some kind of nuance and some kind of discoverability and some kind of vulnerability that is interesting. It's not just about physical form.

It's not about being this like archetype and depiction of attractiveness. It's, we are like, we want to be more psychologically satisfied by our character. That's so well said. And you see that in fan fiction. Like you see the kind of like, enemy that is misunderstood and has so much more to offer or the kind of mysterious character that hasn't been fully understood until one person can really see and understand them. I think that's some of the most common tropes that you're seeing happen over and over again. I definitely

the biggest example is Christian Gray. Yeah, that's probably from 50 shades of Grey. Like this like torture. Do you think he's redeemable? I don't know. I'm asking the tough questions out here. This is a tough one. Yeah, I actually did read that. I actually read that series over my summer break this year. Oh, really? What do you think? I wasn't a fan.

I wasn't a fan. I actually didn't love it. I didn't love it. It was just at my beach house, and I had forgotten to bring a book because I was hiking beforehand, and it was the only thing there. Funnily enough, they actually had three copies. So it was like me. Yeah, so it was like me and my cousin and why,

of my best friends. We were all reading it at the same time. You book clubbed it. That's fun. We book clubbed it like an accidental book club. What was the debrief like? I think it was like, you know, it was so funny at one point. She won't mind me saying this, but my cousin was like got to this part that I knew was like particularly spicy. And then she's like, I'm just going to go upstairs. I got to tap out. I need private space. Got to go. Yeah. And I was like, you, I think that is so valid. I think like, Al, consensus on it was like this is not actually that appealing because it would be like I think the one thing that I noticed about it was in all the sex scenes it was like she came

really quickly she came within like three minutes and I was like and then she'd be like oh a wave of pleasure and then like he just kept going and then we were done yeah and I was like I do think yeah anyhow here's my book review guys no one asked for it but 50 shades a great book review I mean, 50th shades blew open the idea of what a romance novel could be, which I think many people felt was like kind of this dowdy old school thing. And that's cool. Like, that did amazing work. But was it the best written version of what sex at its most aspirational and sexy could be?

I think most people think no. You know, the power dynamics at play there could have been a lot more nuanced and the pleasure could have been a lot more mutual. And, like, listen, teach their own. Like, some people love that book. Absolutely awesome. Power to you. But there needs to be more versions of what, like, a really sexy piece of media can look like.

And I honestly, I give credit to shows like Bridgeton that are trying to figure those things out on the big screen. Which, again, like, wasn't happening five years ago. So I think, like, talk about generational shifts. Like, what millennials are consuming is different than what Gen Z is consuming. Like, it literally is a different world of content out there. 2%. That is the number of people. who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress.

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I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode. episode where we've discussed correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. So. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

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You doctored this particular test twice in so much, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through,

the same thing. Greg, the Westby and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges.

This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or or wherever you get your podcasts. Obviously, we've spent a large part of this episode talking about sex, and sex is fun and sex is fascinating and interesting. People love talking about sex. But there are some other things about your life right now, your experience that I think would be equally valuable to share with people in their 20s.

The first one being that we have almost a, well, we have a decade between us. so you're kind of like you're kind of me in in my 30s right like you're where I'm at in my 20s in your 30s and I think that there is

at least around me in the people I see this like impending doom associated with turning 30 and it's almost like the clock ticks over one of my friends the other day said to me she was like oh what did she say she was like

30 years when when women die like no longer stab me in the heart i know but i was like i was like excuse me i know i know i was like claire that is not what we want to hear um but you are post 30s how has it been what's it what's been some of the learnings and the new outlook on life if there has been one yeah i think you know i'm 33 so the pandemic started when i was 29 so like right at the tail end of my 20s. I think all of us in some ways felt like we were disrupted. Like, we lost something. We lost college years or we lost like transition years in our 20s or we lost, you know, I lost turning 30. Like that was just lost to the wind of the pandemic. So I think there is something unique and present right here and now. But, you know, speaking from my experience,

my 20s were interesting because 10 years ago, 15 years ago, it wasn't as common as it is today to have queer friends that were out of the closet when I was 18 or when I was 20 or even when I was 23. I had plenty of friends that one of my friends affectionately calls baby queers that were figuring out what it means to feel safe out in the world as someone who has stated as queer. And for those folks, you know, you're working through that feeling of you should be more experienced but aren't and that can be really challenging your 20s. And I think there's versions of that that happen in our 30s too. Like we are all baby queering in some ways where maybe you hit 30 and I've had this for plenty of friends and you're deeper in monogamy with someone. You've been

with someone for a longer time and you're like, hey, I actually want to figure out not how to, not how to have good sex, but how to have great sex. What is that going to look like for me? And so I actually see a lot of interest start to spike in maybe like the 28, 29 zone where people are like, I'm on a self-love journey. I want to love my body. I want to enjoy sex. I want to expand what my understanding of sex is. Maybe I want to open up my relationship. There's like, like more play happening with not just I want to have sex and I want to have as much of it as possible, but like I really want to focus on quality. And I think that that's really a big shift in the 30s.

It's like, how do I really focus on what quality is like to me, which is amazing. I think people always talk about you feel less pressure as you were older. I mean, I don't know, you feel pressure in different ways. But I think there's a little bit less of this like I need to be out, I don't know, tallying my body count would be the worst way to say it, but like out there and like pushing myself. And I'm tired, but I'm going to go out on a Thursday. We feel that less, I think, generally speaking in our 30s, but we can still really attend to the moment we are in our sexual journey and it's not finished. You know, life certainly doesn't end at 30.

I love being 33. I love being into my 30s. I think I can definitely say that I love myself more now than I did 10 years ago, and I hope that that keeps growing. And, you know, the journey is always there, and libido shifts, right? Like you might be 23 and have really low libido at the time because your boss is horrible and you're working super long. long hours or you're having body shame images, body image issues, and there's all sorts of stuff going on. And then you might come out of that and have a renaissance at 33. You might have a renaissance at 40. The moments that we're having the best sex in our lives are certainly not

maintained or like bound by our 20s. I think actually most people that I speak to that are past our 20s say they're having better sex now than they did then. So it's ahead of you. Look forward to but there's a lot more life to live. I think the greater interest in sexual self-discovery is kind of the big one that I feel by, you know. What does that look like for me? What's that going to feel like? How am I going to bring that out?

What class am I going to take a Shabari class? I'm going to learn to love my body through a dance class? Like I see a lot more of that. It's a little bit more like high intention, which I really respect. What's a shabari class? Rope tying. So like a complex kind of art, but also like a very, form of VDSM that involves knots and ropes.

Oh, my God, wow. Fascinating. There we go. I'm learning more. I had no idea what that was, but super, super cool. It's also good to hear, I think, that the best is yet to come. It is such a trend, like, hearing that I do think that our 20s are like the quantity years.

Yeah. We're like, how many sexual experiences can I have? How much alcohol can I drink? How many countries can I visit? How many, like, you're mosing really hard. money can I make like everything is like yeah it's like I just want the maximum of everything the maximum pleasure um and it's kind of tiring to be honest yeah sometimes I just want like I'm like I'm cool with like the bare minimum well maybe that's another thing that I can speak to the year 30s for I think

you're you give yourself a lot more leeway to like feel the feeling that you're feeling and if that feeling is tired that's okay and uh that's really liberating I mean you're you're like you're I don't know if you're familiar with the account, the NAP ministry, but I think it's like really powerful stuff around liberation coming from allowing yourself to feel what you feel and if that feeling is tired to embrace it. Yeah, I think it's also a massive shift in psychology as well of previously it was around treating the negative thoughts, treating the self-criticism, treating whatever's going on. And the way to like treat it was to like shame it out of ourselves or to suppress it, or to be like, go for a run, like, go and do this.

Go and distract yourself. And nowadays, it's more like, actually, you need to sit with that. Anything else is actually just going to exacerbate that feeling, that distress, whatever that urge is. So you need to really, like, embrace the good and the bad, which I think is, it's like a part of positive psychology and, like, more holistic psychology that's, like, really coming through in this, in this, like, new generation of psychologists. So super fascinating. The other thing I want to talk about is your journey through entrepreneurship. I know it has actually does have stuff to do with sex. I know this is just like a sex episode. Obviously you started dipsy. How has that been? Because I think we were talking about this before we started recording. We were like this is how that. Yeah. Yeah, I know. We should have

started recording then, but it's still going to be great. Yeah, around like your journey through entrepreneurship, I feel like everyone is fascinated by how you can start a business, what makes a business, all of those kinds of things. Can you talk us through, were you working elsewhere before? Like, the whole journey would be great to hear your path through. Yeah, I mean, this could take hours, so I'll try and keep it brief. So before I started Dipsy, I was a brand strategist. So I was helping brands figure out how to meet people where they are with what they could authentically offer and tell stories. that people liked were interested in.

And so storytelling was always part of the mix. I studied psychology and undergrad. Oh, well, good, I didn't know. And I have always been really curious about what people want, what makes them tick, and why they do different things than what they state that they want. Just really, you know, just fascinating stuff, just the baseline of, you know, human behavior.

And then I met my co-founder, and it was right around the time that I had this idea. And I think the moment that you take the idea to the reality of, like, I'm quitting my job, I will not be making money. I'm going to put all of my eggs in this basket. Definitely helps when you have someone who is equally passionate about that idea. So I think that we really supported each other when the other was feeling a little bit like,

ah, the other person was there to be, you know, there's only room for one person at a time to be having a freak out, right? And so we got to balance each other in those ways and be like, no, this is really compelling. The research is here. And while I was a natural storyteller and was excited to figure out what this content was going to sound like, like Fay is an engineer and Fay knows how to build a product. And so we were kind of a perfect team to make it happen. So I think finding for someone that you have good fit with, but also someone who you really trust and really like matters a lot. Like you're going to be spending

so much time with whoever you decide to be your business partner should you follow that path. So that selection matters. And I would say that mattered in the last five years even more than my romantic partner. If you can believe it, we've spent so much time together. Like in many ways, she is my other partner. Really? Oh, that's actually quite beautiful to hear that. Also, that fear of, like, transitioning from being, like, I've quit my job to doing this. That is so scary.

It's so high conviction, right? Like, you are really saying, like, I really believe this. And then you are asked questions every day to push back on whether what you believe is true. And so you have many chances a day to be like, do I still believe this? Right. And you really just have to keep believing it. And I think that if that feels exciting, because you feel such high conviction in something, that's amazing.

And otherwise, wait for an idea that really makes you feel that way because that conviction will be tested on a daily basis, and there will be many people that don't believe. And that's hard. That knocks your ego. I really had to work on my self-esteem through that problem. Like, what if not everyone thinks this is what I should be spending my time doing? What if not everyone thinks this will work?

What if not everyone thinks this is important? It's hard enough already, just every day, figuring out how to do it. But it's harder when other people don't necessarily think it's, yeah. Does a 50-year-old white man who my dad's business partner think that dipsies as important as a 25-year-old who is so excited that this product exists? Of course not, but there are people like that. And so finding the people that remind you of why this matters to you and reminds you of this being important along the journey is also really huge. We were talking about that earlier too. It's helpful in the world of podcasting are alone a lot.

It's helpful to get out there and be like, wow, I meet you. really like what I'm doing. That's amazing. It's also interesting what you were talking about, the idea that comes along. I watched this amazing TED talk the other day. That was explaining how ancient civilizations used to think that the ideas lived in the walls and in the wind. And so, like, an idea would come to you in the wind and you had to, like, grab it. And you had, like, a responsibility to grab it out and hold onto it super tight. because and you can see the ideas like floating by I think a lot of people have like

million dollar ideas on a daily basis I think everyone has had a million dollar idea but it's like they just let it float by and they know grab it and it is it takes a lot of courage to do both things I think it takes a lot of courage to be like oh you know I actually have a family right now and I can't do that or I need to focus on my studies but also a lot of courage to be like you know I think that was my experience I was like the first couple of month's first year it was like I didn't get any listens I really it was just like my family and close friends and it just was like you just got to push through and believe in what you're doing exactly maybe those are my two biggest learnings is that possible could I boil out to two that'd be a miracle but

I think you know what you just said is so right like there are some people that say like I have the grit and I'm willing to push through it and I'm willing to deal with a year maybe even more where I'm not getting the feedback that I want yet but I just believe and I keep pushing and there are other people think like that actually sounds more terrifying than fun. And I don't know if I have that sort of grit. And I actually feel really happy pursuing something where someone is telling me what they need and I'm doing my job really well. And that is an equally respectable path. And in many ways, I envy that in my hardest days because being entrepreneurs like, oh my God, the responsibilities on me all the time or me my co-founder all the time. So talk about the shame thing. It's like, there's no shame

in finding what works for you. And entrepreneurship definitely isn't for everyone. But if you really feel excited to hold tight to that idea and like you just want to prove and like great grab it and your 20s are a great time for that because you're full of energy and like you know what else are you doing let's just try it and so it's an amazing time it's an amazing time also I think if you fuck up it's like that was my whole thing I was like I have nothing to lose by doing this I have nothing to lose like if I fuck up yeah it's like I really was like and also when are when am I going to do this otherwise like yeah when else am I going to take this risk you know in my you know things could happen at any point like yeah you have children you have

a mortgage like you're getting promoted your family member's ill like I need to go back and do this like do my masters I need to like I think that it was just such a sometimes everything just kind of aligns yeah but like you will be tested I've learned that like the universe the universe like something like I think that anything worth having isn't easy

otherwise everyone would have it so wise and I know that such like it sometimes people like yeah sometimes people give me like give me a little bit of flack for that they're like a lot of things that are worth having it easy but I'm like yeah but I think that there are some things that aren't you know

like not everyone everyone wants a gold everyone would want an Olympic medal right the phrase that I like to use is like what game do you want to be playing and what pain are you willing to tolerate? And so maybe you are the kind of person who can really deal with challenging personalities. And that's just like kind of, you know, water off your back. It's not super stressful to you, but for other people, that's like intensely uncomfortable. And so maybe, you know, being a nurse in a hospital isn't the job for you because that is like sort of pain that you'd be encountering on a daily basis. Okay, so maybe that's not the game that you play.

but yeah life is I think about picking the games that you want to play and knowing that like no path is going to be like default wonderful there's all there's so many things about being entrepreneurs are so wonderful you pick who you work with you choose the problems you want to work on you decide how you want to spend your time and you own that time like those are really amazing things but the downside of that if you don't like it is you feel like oh my god I have all this time what am I supposed to do with it how am I supposed to organize it how am I supposed to use it I have to pick people that's so hard like I don't like hiring I find that really stress like there's all so sorts of ways that you can see the same thing in two different directions. And yeah, so probably I could bring that all the way back to what feels good for you. Like, if you're paying attention to what feels good for you and you're like, I end this day feeling like it was exhausting, but I'm not depleted. I'm just tired. Cool. You know, there's a difference there.

Gina, thank you so much for coming on the show. This is possibly one of my favorite episodes. I don't know why I hadn't spoken about sex. some pleasure before. There is so much psychology and, like, so many facets of it that definitely need to be explored more. I want to also say this episode was not sponsored. I just really love dipsy. It was not sponsored in any capacity. However, if you do want to download this app, experience some amazing storytelling, some amazing audio content that's a little bit different to mine. You can go to what's it, dipsy.com slash psych 20. No, you can head to dipsystories.com

slash psych 20. That's d-I-P-S-E-A stories.com slash psych 20. There you go. And you get 30% off. You'll get 30 days free. So you can export literally every piece of content to your heart's desire for 30 days and decide if it's right for you. Oh my goodness. Look at that. It's free. You may as well do it. You may as well just download it for 30 days and listen to some fun stories. Do some exploring. Yeah. Do some exploring. I think that's really, really valuable. And I would also definitely say follow us on TikTok and Instagram.

We put all sorts of fun content, educational content out there. That's at tipsy stories on both TikTok and Instagram. I think the stuff we put up there is amazing. And our social media manager is a wizard. Actually, I did see something on TikTok the other day. And it was like one of your stories. Like the audio of one of your stories. And like, yeah.

And it was like over this like tree backdrop. up and I was like, wow. Who we targeted you effectively? Oh, my God, my algorithm was like, and I follow it in the algorithm? I follow you guys, but not, yeah, yeah. But like this one in particular was like, I was like, pulling me out. Yeah, it was really good there. I literally was like, oh, I need to go listen to a cute little story.

Thank you so much again for coming on. I really think that what you're doing is amazing. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. As always, if you feel cool to do so, please feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever you're listening right now, make sure you go and check out Dipsy, of course. And if you have an episode suggestion, if you just want to follow along, please follow me at That Psychology Podcast on Instagram and on TikTok to see what's coming out, to see what we have in the works. We would love to see you over there. And as always,

have a lovely week. We will be back with another episode in a couple days. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and hosts care games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with.

And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Ranchini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is love trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%.

That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on. on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%? That's TWO% on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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