The Psychology of your 20s - 153. Dealing with difficult family members ft. Alexis Fernandez

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

As the holiday season approaches so does the expectation to start seeing family, including difficult family members who you would rather avoid. In today's episode we are joined by Alexis Fernandez, the host of the show Do You F***ing Mind, to gain a better understanding of how we can navigate those who we may be related to by blood but have a hard time being around, including:  Narcissistic parents and in laws Jealous family members  Family members with political differences  Depressed parents Compulsive liars and gossips Critical and judgemental family members  The argument starters and energy vampires We also provide tips for setting boundaries and actually sticking with them, the courage to stand up for yourself, how to have difficult conversations, knowing when enough is enough and how to walk away, alongside much more. As the holiday season approaches, we are sending you love and strength.   Listen to Do You F*cking Mind with Alexis Fernandez https://bit.ly/dyfm-pod . Follow @dyfmpodcast on IG  Follow @alexispredez on IG   Follow The Psychology of your 20s: https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his

last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we explore the psychology of our 20s. Of course, it is guest month, December month, and we have an amazing guest, a homegrown Aussie guest here with us today. You may know her from her incredible podcast. Do You fucking mind? Alexis. Ferdness, how are you going? I'm so excited to be here.

It was, it's like two worlds colliding. It is two worlds colliding. I was like, this had to happen, right? I know. It was inevitable. I don't know how we've never spoken before. How? And we've just been sitting here now for like, I don't know how long.

Just like, we can't stop talking. Literally before we started recording, we were like having a discussion around zombie apocalyps. I don't know. How do we even get to that? Fire safety hazards and dead bolts on doors. Yeah. Not really relevant to psychology or self-care.

No. nonetheless was fulfilling for me. It was, I know. We've come up with some ideas to, you know, message our landlords. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for that.

So I think it's so something that I don't even think I said this to you, but when I was in university, I was, I was a do you fucking mind stand? Really amazing. I still listen to it now, obviously, but I remember going through like my first huge breakup when I was 19, 18 years old. Yeah. And listening to your episodes on these like nature walks through camera. Oh my God.

I love that. Being like, heal me. That is the best. I know. I love that. It's a full circle moment for me. Yeah, this is amazing. And I feel like, I don't know, I feel like most of the people that were like the OGs who

have like shared the podcast and listened to it, it's they found me at a time of like deepest heartbreak, which is really, really cool. And then they've like gone on that journey. of like self-discovery and, you know, learning. I feel like you learn so much about yourself when you're heartbroken. It's like the biggest learning curve. It's pretty. And now I feel that when people are like, I've never been heartbroken,

I'm like, I'm a little bit sorry for you because it's such, I don't know, it's such a rich experience. I used to say like heartbreak is sacred. Isn't it? Because it's exactly as you said, people, I think, enter into a lot of like personal development and self-growth through heartbreak. And then they're suddenly like awoken to this whole. bigger spectrum of other things that are going to improve their life.

But they wouldn't have accessed if that, like, loser hadn't, you know, cheated on them or, like, rejected them. So you need to go through that pain. You need to go through something just not being fair. And how do you deal with that? Like, how do you, I think before you've experienced that, you've never experienced truly an unfair situation where there's no sense that can be made from it. Like, how do you move forward from something that can't be fixed and can't be made sense of?

And that's where you learn so much about, like, your resilience and how you make peace with something just yourself and not find closure and not, you know. My God, the closure thing I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. And she was like, how am I meant to move on when I can't stop thinking about this person? Oh, yeah. And I was like, you need to provide your own emotional closure in this moment. 100%. I don't know. So we're not even talking about heartbreak.

We may as well be. I love that this. We just get straight into the pepso. We just get straight into it. It's like immediately like, what are we here for? Inspiration. But what we are really here to talk about today is a topic that I think is so important during this season of the year.

Dealing with difficult family members, complex family dynamics. I don't love the word toxic, but I do think it applies here. It does. To certain families, it definitely would. Because I feel like what we were discussing before with some families, there's a lot of issues. but it's not necessarily toxic. It's just clashing of the minds versus situations where it's really genuinely unhealthy and someone's genuinely out to get you kind of thing, you know.

Yeah, well, that was something I was really interested in asking you about is like, I think we use the term like toxic to describe a whole different pattern of behaviours. What are some of the key ones that you think are most typical in those, like, Yeah, in like complex family dynamics. Like what are some of the behaviors that we should be looking out for to identify that like maybe this relationship, although its family, is actually not that healthy. Yeah. So I guess like you've got to like pull apart like what is because I always say like when

you're trying to form new relationships like the biggest thing that you can do is just like number one seek to understand. You don't have to agree but try and see where someone's coming from because sometimes you can look at it from a place off, oh wow. A big one that I get is women who don't get along with their sister-in-laws. And I think a lot of that stems from, you've taken my brother away from me. I'm getting defensive. So if you can understand it from that perspective, you're like,

can I crack this person and get them to like me? Because they're just feeling a little bit insecure right now. They're feeling like this person's being taken away from them. If I can approach it in a clever way, I can turn this around. Not that it's on your shoulders, but you could potentially by, you know, opening up to them and being vulnerable to that person. And then they're like, oh, you're a human just like me. You're not this big, scary girlfriend that swept in and taken my brother, who's my best

friend. You're actually a feeling human and then they can open up versus you genuinely feeling attacked because the family might not agree with, you know, the fact that it's a big one is it's a gay relationship or it's a divide in beliefs or they don't like your lifestyle. So they're just like, we don't accept you. That's it. And to try and all parents, a huge one is where mothers don't want to let go of their sons, sometimes daughters as well.

But I find a really common one is moms like digging their heels in being like, it's my baby, and they want to like coddle their adult son. And it's like, how do you? Yeah. And I've got heaps of listeners, but friends as well who really struggle with that one and trying to have a decent relationship with the mother-in-law is a huge one. And then when it comes to like Christmas, holiday season, they want their kids, adult kids with them all the time. They want nothing to have changed.

So it's, I guess it's really difficult to navigate this relationship when they're the ones that have to, like they've got their kids. They've got to accept that their kids are growing up and the dynamic is going to change. And a lot of families can't accept that. They can't accept change. Whereas you're the one who's like, well, I'm just growing into this world. I'm becoming an adult. I'm experiencing all these new things. Why am I being attacked? What have I done wrong? I'm listening to that being like applying that to so many situations in my own life. And I'm like, wow, that is actually quite universal. That is so universal.

You made such a good point there. I think the reason why a lot of us in our 20s in particular start to experience this friction for the first time is because we are, it is the first kind of period or chapter in our life in which we are rejecting the label of child. And that's just not like personally. That's like saying almost to our families, I'm not a kid anymore. Like your relationship to me might be that I'm your child, but I'm also an adult who is trying to set up their own life

who has boundaries around how I want to be treated now. And I think it's also natural to go through a period where you detach from your family and then you come back. The other one that I think is really interesting, which comes up all the time during this period is differing political beliefs. And I find this in my own family quite a bit. My parents are, not with my parents per se, but with like my extended family where just because you're related doesn't mean you're going to agree on everything.

What's some of your advice from that? Have you seen that like in your friendship group as well? Definitely. Definitely. And when it comes to political, this is it like a really good topic because I feel like when it comes to difference in politics, one thing that I always raise with my family, my in-laws, with anyone who might differ in their political police friends, is that I say, there's a difference between a debate, I love a debate, versus an argument. And I don't think it's the healthiest thing to become emotionally attached to a political party. You should be able to criticize the party that

you are voting for. That's what makes an informed decision. So when I see people get really emotional and angry about a political thing. It's like, are you forming your identity around this attachment or are you able to be like, this is the right party for this time to run this country? You know, so you should be able to flick between political parties. You shouldn't make your identity about a party. And if you happen to align with a party for your whole life, fine. That's great. But it's this idea if I think people feel when you attack the political party, you're attacking me. Now I'm going to get angry. Now I'm going to get defensive. But it's Like I'm not, I'm just raising something.

Have you thought about it in this way? Have you looked at it in that way? And I always say to people, I like to debate, but if you're going to start character assassinating me, then I can't have this conversation. But I'd love to discuss. I'd love, I don't have to change your mind. You don't have to change mind.

But I like, I like seeing how other people think. Yeah. And teaching me why they think that way, as long as they're open to hearing the same back. It's like coming at it from approach of, of like openness and learning. I always, I was saying this to someone the other day, you sometimes get into these discussions with people

and you can see it in their eyes that they are looking for an argument. Like, do you know what I'm talking about? It's like this fire where it's like you can see that something has lit up in them where you can tell in those moments that what you're talking about for you might be a discussion for them as a projection of their identity. Big time. And those are the topics that you need to just, I think, step away from.

Step away from. Yeah, definitely. And the people that, and you can figure this out really, really quickly, when you speak to someone and you can tell that they're just thinking of the next thing they're going to say instead of listening to what you're actually saying and responding accordingly. So it's like, I know you're just brewing up your next argument. You're not listening to me. So I think sometimes you also have to just pick your battles with certain people.

You're not going to be able to have a healthy debate with everybody. And sometimes I think while you are in your right to say what you want to say, Sometimes I think for your own peace of mind, just don't. Just for your own sake. You just suffer. Sometimes you cause yourself all this suffering because you're like, but I can have these conversations with these people, but they're different people. You've got to manage your expectations around people.

Especially with family. It's like I think it's hard because I think when we're talking about dealing with difficult family members, right? Like we have a few categories here. Yeah. We have, as you said, like the relationship. relationships where there is friction caused by change, where, you know, the son has grown up and gotten a girlfriend and the mother is like really struggling to deal with that. I think that's like environmental. I think part of that is also we can put in like political beliefs as well. There's like a there is again a friction in that sense of like there is a disagreement. Then you have like genuine clinically severe behaviors. Yes. Like narcissism like compulsive liars like even abuse or controlling behavior. Then you have like genuine clinically. which we'll talk about more in a second. And then I think you have this other side,

which is parents who are really, or family members who are really trying their best, but are dealing with something that is making it so your relationship is afraid. So I got this question the other day from someone that was talking about how her mother is experiencing a really bad episode of depression. And that is by nature creating difficult,

difficulties in their relationship, creating a difficult dynamic where her mother is probably not, isn't really acting in a way that I think is how we would see a mother acting because of what's going on. How do you think we deal with those different categories of people? Like the friction, the like the clinical severe and then just the people who are perhaps not in a great place. Yeah. So with people that are not in a great place, I always say whether it could be depression or like there's so many different, you know, categories. But always try and remind yourself that that person is not the depression. That person is not the X, Y, Z, you know, they are two separate things.

So sometimes someone might treat you in a certain way or push you away or create conflict within the relationship because they're going through this internal suffering. And it impacts the relationship. And it's, you know, ideally you want to find a way. So the relationship doesn't break down. You want to find a way of being like, every time I have this interaction, have to be at the forefront of my mind has to be they are not the depression and them are two separate things and the depression will get in the way and that's not their intention so how do you

find a way to maintain your boundaries for your own mental health but also have patience and understanding in that space and sometimes you might need to pull away just a little bit and be there for them but say you know like I can't spend 10 hours with my mom now because it's I leave and I'm in a state. But maybe I can find different ways of really being there for her. That's just going to have to be different. Sometimes your relationships will have to evolve in a different way. So you feel like you're still there for them.

But you also have to, you know, protect yourself as well. So you're not also going to be spiraling as well. I think that all relationships are always evolving. And to think, and this is where a lot of problems with relationships start with parents, the dynamic between parents and children, is that you always have to look at relationships as evolving. If you accuse someone of you've changed, it's like, well, that's inevitable. Of course they've changed. Everyone's going to change. And when I look at my relationship with my partner, I know that we're going to go through many relationships within this one relationship. Who will

be when we're 40 is not who we were when we met. And it's your job to try your best to evolve together, you know, but to think, I never changed, you changed. And this is why the marriage broke down, which happens all the time or with parents and kids. It's like, well, isn't that what we're supposed to do? Aren't we supposed to evolve and change? And that can happen for the worse as well. You know, with someone getting sick, someone having, you know, some disorder. You've got to find a way to come into that next phase of the relationship and it will be different.

Yeah, it's really hard when that happens, I think, because we all like to talk about unconditional love and unconditional love sounds brilliant and I do think it's possible. but I think especially as you begin to realize that your parents are human too we see them as being on this like pedestal for a lot of our lives for so long yeah for so long and I think that all of us have a moment and I'm sure you have one yeah where you were like oh my parent is like my my mom my dad is this is their first time being alive as well like they are figuring all of this out at the same time as me they're just a little bit further along. So true. And it's so, I think that's difficult when you see them go through

hard periods. And maybe it's like hard periods in your parents' marriage. Maybe it's like how your relationship with your parent is going to adapt post-divorce. Like, exactly. And seeing them suffer and seeing them overcome things and being like, wow, you were this this untouchable thing when I was a kid who knew everything. And now I'm realizing that, you know, I'm soon going to be the age that you were at, you know, and you just start having, it's like, wow, how are you parenting and I'm that age now? And, you know, it's just, it blows your mind to realize you didn't have it all figured out when I was a kid. And maybe giving them that, um, if it is like the right decision for you, giving them that level of like, um, not just forgiveness, but like that, that space to make mistakes

as much as you are still. Like, I think viewing, it's not that you need to view your parents as a friend because I think that changes the dynamic. It does. It does. And it's, it's, can be quite difficult, but viewing them as just as fallible, just as, like, flawed as you are and the same way that you would want other people to accept your mistakes, you should be willing to accept a degree of their mistakes as well. I think that's really important. There are some instances, though, where that is not possible. Exactly. Yeah. And you mentioned narcissists. Yeah. And narcissistic parents or in-laws is like a really difficult one to navigate. You have a great episode on this, by the way. I do have a specific episode on that.

So good. Because I did one on narcissists. And then I had all these people being like, what about mother-in-law? What about my mom? What about my dad? And so I thought, okay, well, this absolutely. I'll put it in the description. Because you hear a lot about narcissists in relationships.

And normally you'll hear it being the man who's the narcissist and the woman who's dating it. But then when you hear about, because you can have just as many female as male, it's hard to put a number on it because a lot of people who are narcissists aren't going and getting diagnosed. As narcissists, so it's more. Probably extreme, not probably, it's definitely extremely underdiagnosed. But that's when you see it's like, oh, this is across all genders, you know, it doesn't matter. Narcissistic parents are a huge one. And the weird thing is that often the child, so say you're dating someone and their parents are clearly narcissists, often the person you're dating doesn't realize that.

They're just like, oh, they're just difficult. Oh, they make all these excuses similar to what we were just talking about before, where your parents are these, you want them to be perfect. They're your parents. You are them. You know, you're, that's why, like, it hurts to see your parent criticize the other parent because you're like, you're criticizing half of me. You know, it's really, that's why children suffer in divorce if it's a horrible divorce

because they feel torn, you know. And so when you, when you're trying to let your partner realize, without being aggressive, how do you get your partner to really identify that their parents are narcissistic? Sometimes they see it. Sometimes they don't. And when they don't see it, it's really hard to navigate. that. So I always say, don't straight up say to someone, your parents are narcissist, your mother is a narcissist. I always start with, always put the question back on them. Like, does this

behavior happen all the time? When, you know, start getting them to do some self-discovery? When was the first time they did something like that? Or when was the first time they put you in that position? And do they do that with all your siblings? And you just start like, just, just questions. And then they were like, oh, wow, oh, yeah, right, that's not weird. And then they figure it out for themselves. You just got to get, dig under the surface. And then it's, then you create an environment where it's comfortable for them to talk about it and never ever character assassinate your partner's parents, no matter how annoyed you are, because again, you're insulting them, you know, like obviously you're not meaning to, but that's how they perceive

it as. It's like the whole thing of like, oh, I'm allowed to talk shit about this person, but the moment you do, it's not okay. You know, like you'll break up with someone and then you're allowed to say everything under the sun about that person, but then if someone insults, you're like, oh, what, what, you're like, I loved them. So what does that say about me? Yeah, yeah. What do you do? What are you, are you judging my judgment or my choices? And you know that they're right. Same thing with siblings. You know, they're right. Yes. It's like, I'm allowed to say whatever I want about my sisters. The minute, like, they come to me again, one of their friends has said something like, oh my God. I'm like, I'm going to fucking hunt you dare. Like, how dare you say that.

How rude. But then you can say it, you know, so it's kind of that dynamic. So I think definitely tread carefully, but I think that if you can set up a really comfortable open space to have a conversation about the behaviours of your parents. Always say, like, turn it into speaking about the behaviour and not them as a person. This behaviour is unhealthy. This behaviour is unacceptable. I'm going to put a boundary against this interaction or this situation, so it doesn't happen again.

And then you're not saying, they're an asshole, they're an idiot, they're fucked in the head. You know, because if you start saying stuff like that, then that's when... It comes across as you, like, genuinely, even if you do. It makes it look like you hate their parents. And it's how do I navigate this carefully? Because if your partner didn't have a good enough relationship with their parents, that wouldn't be an issue. Because the only reason you say your in-laws is because your partner has a good relationship with their in-laws.

So the difficulty in navigating it is when your partner has that relationship. And you've got a slot in there somehow. It's also really interesting because it kind of shows this weird distinguishing. right? Not so much a distinction, but as somewhat of an innate competition as we get older between the family we grew up with and the family that we're going on to create. And I think that sometimes it's very easy for people to be like, well, this is my family now. I need to prioritize my partner and our future together. But that's also a really hard distinction for some people to make there is still that innate loyalty to the people that have raised them. And maybe you are

someone who is recognizing for yourself that your own parents are like that. How do you go about, I guess, it might not even be narcissism. It might be that in the past, things were not as healthy as they are now. They might still be unhealthy, toxic, whatever label you want to give it. How do you go about having those difficult conversations once you have identified and done some of that exploration and realized that this person or, though you may love them is perhaps not a good figure in your life right now. Yeah, that's really hard, as we all know.

Like, I think it's really hard to bring up to somebody that they, to criticize their parenting. Yeah. Because for a parent, their biggest job, their biggest accomplishment is raising a human, more than one human, you know, and to go in and criticize them, it's so hard to do, to do it, like delicately. And even if you do it in the most delicate way, they're not going to take it in the best way possible. But I do still think, obviously, it's important to do so.

And when setting a boundary, when saying something, the best way to start is you say, I no longer feel comfortable with this. Or you make it about you. Every time I set a boundary, I make sure that it's about me. Because if I say, you do this and you do that and you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, then it feels like it's an attack. And it feels like I'm trying to control how they're behaving.

But if I say, listen, next time this situation arises, I don't want to be here if you're going to start yelling at me. Or I don't want to, you know, you try and just make it a bit more about I'm going to draw a line here. I've got a friend of mine and she had a really unhealthy relationship with her partner's mom. And I just said to her, you're going over every Sunday and you're spending like 10 hours or eight hours at the... Ten hours. And just so unpleasant the environment.

Yeah, I can imagine. And then I said, firstly, why don't you draw a line and say, I don't have to go every Sunday, for starters. I don't. I'm my own person. I'm an adult. And when I do go, I can either come a little bit later or I can leave a bit earlier. And then that just shows a level of independence,

and it's like an unsaid rule of like, I can control myself here. Like, I want to come and see you, but I'm not. handering to everything that you want, you know, just because my partner wants to be here for 10 hours, I don't have to. And it's not about being rude, you've come in, you give them the time of day, you have the conversation you're putting in the effort, but then you're saying, okay, so good to see you guys, say you're, bye, and just like remove yourself from there.

Yeah, no question about it. Like, no, I will not stay for coffee. Because sometimes the hard thing is that sometimes you'll have the best idea for the best conversation and you'll say, and it's just not going to be taken in the right way and they're just going to feel attacked. sometimes a conversation cannot be had. And the only thing you can do is, okay, given what I've got, like given what's in front of me, I have to work with what I've got.

And the best way to work with what I've got is to limit the interaction. So when I'm there, I'll just give it my all, but it's small doses. And then you find I can actually handle these people in small doses. Like a lot of people, they're like, oh, I love my in-laws, because they live three hours flying off flight away, you know. So we go there. I just don't get my time. I do my best.

We don't, like, we clash, but it's fine. And then I leave. If they were my neighbors, I'd hate them. So it's that kind of, so how can you navigate that if you live in the same city? Just like bring it back a little bit. Feel like you're a little bit more in control of yourself. And I think that will really help you feel like, you know, not so much anxiety when you then have to go spend time with potential in-laws or even your own parents who might be causing you so much, so much stress. But then you've got like the really unhealthy relationship.

And I always say, like, just because you are tied together by blood, no one has a ticket into your life for free. No one's got this golden ticket into your life. People have to earn their place in your life just like you have to earn your place in someone else's life. You can't go around disrespecting someone indefinitely and expect for your seat to still be there. So if it means cutting out someone because they treat you like shit, cut the person out, you know. And I think that there's some steps. I totally agree with that as well. I think there are some steps to take beforehand.

The example that you just gave was like reestablishing your independence as an individual that goes for your in-laws and then also for your own parents, even for like sibling relationships that are quite draining or codependent or any form of family relationship, maintaining a sense of independence when that person is trying to take more from you than you're willing to give is a huge one. But I do think there is something to be said about setting boundaries and seeing how people respond. Sometimes the outcome of a boundary is not that their behaviour changes, but that you see that they're incapable of doing it.

That is something that I've started to realize where it's like, I think we often talk about, oh, you need to set a boundary, and we are like, oh, and then immediately assume that that person is going to meet that boundary once it's been spoken into existence. That's right. And they don't. A lot of the time. And that is actually just as, it might be disappointing, but it's just as valid.

valuable to you to teach you about their behavior. It is. And sometimes setting a boundary doesn't mean that it's going to be respected, but you've vocalized where your limit is. And now it's not this arbitrary thing. It's like, I've now told you where that limit is. Whether you respect it or not, it's up to me how to respond to you respecting. But I always say a boundary is not a boundary unless there are consequences. You know, you can't say, this is my boundary and have it stomped all over every time.

It's not a boundary. It's your, you wish it was your boundary. but unless there is a consequence for that boundary being crossed, it's not a boundary. Oh, that's such a good point. I think about this, like, in relation to a family member of mine who has a real problem with making comments about people's appearances, which I think is a big one. Oh, my God. I get it.

Like, different generation. I totally understand that they think that's fine. But I don't understand it anymore because I think. think that we have been very clear with them. My siblings have also been like involved in this. I mean like, no, you cannot make those comments anymore. And when you said a boundary is not a boundary without consequences, we were for years being like, please don't say that, please don't say that.

I'm uncomfortable with you saying that. It was only when we were like, if you say that, we won't be coming here anymore. Exactly. That they were like, oh, or like, okay, I really didn't enjoy that. I'm leaving now. Exactly. If you stand up and leave, that's a huge. statement of like it's that uncomfortable for me you've made this so unpleasant yeah I'd rather not

be here literally and that's when it's like oh wow this is that's when they really unfortunately it has to get to that point but that's when they realize oh my god the fact that they're willing to leave yeah that's really not okay you know it really and I think it was and it was uncomfortable it was uncomfortable being in those moments but it was also uncomfortable walking away from them of course because I think that that's the other thing people the reason that we cannot always set boundaries that work is because we think that setting your boundary is just a matter of just like you said, of just saying, setting an intention for how we want to be treated rather than actually instigating it. So what are some tips for being like,

firstly identifying a boundary? Secondly, really sticking to it, sticking to it and enforcing it as well. Yeah. So there's two, because you can look at it in, I mean, you can call it a boundary, but in your head you can say, look, I could request that someone speak to me. certain way, you know, but ultimately I've just decided that no matter how they treat me, I'm never walking away, but I could just request it. That's one thing. And that's where you have zero expectations of the response and you'd just be like, all right, whatever comes, I'm just going to accept. The second one is the boundary where you're like, okay, only set a boundary when you know what it looks like once it's crossed. So when you say, I'm setting this boundary,

what now happens if they cross that boundary? What am I going to do? Because I've now put an expectation. A boundary has an expectation. A request, hopefully doesn't. Like, you would like them to start treating you nicely, but also you're like, could you please? And their answer could be no, and you're like, okay, sick. Whereas the boundary, you're like, all right, if I'm going to set this boundary, I have to be willing to know what it looks like if they cross it and know exactly what my actions will be. Make a game plan for yourself. Don't because then if you go and say, this is my boundary. And then they cross it, then you're like, oh, and you choke up and then the pressure's on yourself and you feel terrible and then you feel like you've been undermined.

Yes. Once again, you're like, it just hurts the relationship further. And then your confidence is shot and you're like, well, now my word means nothing because now if I try and set another boundary, they didn't respect that one. They're not going to respect this one.

So before you go in with the boundary, give yourself a bit of a bit of a bit of talk and be like, okay, if I'm going to set this boundary, what happens when they cross set? What will my actions be? I think the best one is to remove yourself from the situation. And don't make it this universal, like,

I'm never coming back. No, just say, I'm like you did. It's something simple as when this happens, I'm not going to be in this space. So if you say it in the first minute of me arriving, I leave. If you say it after an hour, I leave. I'm just not going to be here if you're going to talk to me like that.

And you can also say, and you'll realize that the more you do it, the less I'm going to want to prioritize hanging out with you versus hanging out with another invitation that it might have had. And, you know, people, whether you like it or not, people do have a hierarchy of who they want to spend time with. And it's the ones that they feel the most comfortable than themselves. around. They're the people you put at the top of that list, no matter how close they are or not to you as far as blood goes. So I think if you can, if you feel comfortable enough to be like,

okay, if this happens, I'm walking away, then set that boundary. And you don't even have to say it. Like, you don't even have to be like. You don't have to know. So I think about this in terms of a story. Another friend of mine said, a big one is comments about not just appearance, but comments about any kind of choice that you're making. Your lifestyle, how you? Or even things that like your sexuality, things that you don't have a choice around where it's like, what are you trying to do here? Like you're trying to change my mind. Like that's ridiculous. Like I think that's a big one.

The other one is people who are compulsive liars or controlling. So people who are like, can you do this now? Or like who are, yeah, I think that's a huge one where they're like, oh, if you're in my house, you have to do X, Y and Z. Yes. Controlling. Yeah. And I find that controlling and compulsing. liars. I think both of those things will fall under the category of, I think when people

can't control themselves, they control everyone else around them. So the less control you have over who you are and your circumstances, you try and control everyone. You look at those relationships where they're so controlling, these people are not happy with the life they've created for themselves. So they're like, given that I feel like I'm out of control in my circumstances, I'm going to control you and feel like I'm empowered. And the same goes for that. You know, like getting people to do things for them. You know, this has to be done. You've come into my space and now you've got to do this. It's all about a lack of control in their own life and a lack of satisfaction as well, I feel. That's so sad. It's like displacement, right? Like yeah.

Classic Freudian. It is. You kind of feel a bit bad. You're like, oh, I feel sorry for you. Yeah. And that's the thing, right? If they're acting in that way, you can just walk away without even being like, I'm leaving now. Like, and text them later, just be like, okay, my absence is a is a message here. And hopefully they pick up on it. If you don't have the confidence. confidence to actually say that. And I think, yeah, yeah, that's a huge one, what you just said with the confidence, because I think a lot of people think, on top of the fact that I've got to do this action, I then have to say something.

And a lot of people, they've not lived a life where they've just confidently said things whenever they thought it. And it's very difficult, for a confident person, it's like, I'll just say it. But it's not like that. For a lot of people, what do you mean you want me to stand up to my parents for the first time ever? You know, it's daunting. So like you said, you don't have to say something. You can just leave.

And I always say a text message, a letter, handwritten letter in the mail. but whatever to get your point across where you're cool, calm and collected is the best way to do it. If you can do it in person, great, but most people can't because they're like, it's anxiety, it's so stressful. You've got all these good things to say the moment you get home. Why didn't I say all these things? You know, just remove yourself, cool, like calm down, write everything you need to say

and then read it later, not, don't send it straight away. Yeah. And then be like, I'll edit that a little bit and then send it, you know, that might be away. The other thing that you said there where I was like, that is another really good reason to do that is because in the moment, like you said, you are probably going to be experiencing a great deal of anxiety. Massively. One of the first times you've ever been like to a family member, hey, not acceptable. Sometimes people can be really reactive to that. And that is going to escalate to the point where you are really reactive to how they've responded.

And people get really worked up. you're going to feel like your sense of control over the situation, your ability to speak up for yourself is slipping. Because this person is kind of using emotional warfare at that point. Totally. You know, intentionally unintentionally. Yeah. And like anger is a secondary emotion to an initial underlying emotion.

So when someone gets angry, if you're also angry, it's game over as far as where you can go from there. Because if two people are angry, they're actually using anger to try and communicate the fact that they feel abandoned, that they feel rejected, that they feel insecure, that they feel attacked, you know, but it's anger. So it's aggressive. And so you put your wall up and respond with aggression, you get nowhere. And that's where you go through this like standoff and you don't talk for days. It's just, so when someone gets angry, I always say like, there's no talking to someone who's angry. And if you have yet to slip into anger, leave, just remove yourself.

Run away. Yeah. And don't be like, calm down, because that will just stir someone even more. just say, I'd rather talk about this. Yeah. And to take ownership off it, even if you're not blowing up, I was advised to say something like, let's talk about this when we've both calmed down, you know, so you make it like, we are heated. Let's just. Not just you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I'm heated in my head right now. And so I think, yeah, never respond to anger. It's just not worth it. And as you would know, you know, when people are, fired up. It's harder to be logic, to make a logical argument or a statement. You're emotional. It's all reactive. You're not thinking proactively. You're not reasoning. So that's why it would benefit them to walk off and cool off for a bit and think about, okay, what am I actually feeling, you know? Especially if you're a sensitive person as well. Yeah. That's if someone else's emotions,

if you're an empath, like, you're going to pick up on those. There's no controlling that once someone has gotten to the point where they can't manage. They're, emotions. You are going to pick up on that. You're going to absorb that. Big time. Big time. And then it's, it hurts. It hurts so much. You're trying to protect yourself. And it's just a disaster. So I say, yeah, definitely step away. Like you said, you don't have to say anything in the moment. You don't have to try and be this really confident person if you haven't before. You don't have to. You can just remove, simmer down and then communicate in the way that feels best, you know. Great advice. Thank you.

The last thing that I really want to focus on, because I get a lot of questions about this, and I know that it's not something that everyone is thinking about, but for those that are, when do you think it is time to go no contact with a family member? I think, I mean, by default, you're just always going to give your family members, like lots of chances. So you'll already have a track record in place of how many chances you've given this person. Then, you know, because, and people will try. to speak nicely, they'll try screaming, they'll try, you know, hey, if we start doing

the, you've probably already tried so many different ways. You know, gifts, you've tried doing it their way, you've tried doing it your way, you've just tried everything. Normally, when you're ready to be like, I've got to walk away, you've exhausted a lot of options. And I think that when it's time to pull the plug on a relationship, you can, you can always leave the door open in the sense of these have been all my problems with this relationship. And again, write it down if you prefer, do it in a letter. Again, whatever it takes to get your point across, do that. Don't feel the pressure if it has to be in person.

It doesn't. When I wanted to have a talk with my ex when we just broke up and I'm like, can we please meet up? I wrote notes down and read it out to him because I don't want to forget anything. But I'm like, I just don't want to forget. Because I'm like, I know that if I just sat there. So if it takes that, do that. It doesn't matter.

But it's got to be something where you can. say these have been the issues. This is what I've requested for change. And this is what's not happened. I've tried doing it. This way I've tried doing it. That way it's just not happened. I'm not going to try and change you anymore. You can't change someone. You can't change their behavior. So then that's when if they don't, and you don't have to say, I'm leaving.

I'm cutting you out of my life. You don't have to say it, but you say, but this has not been, you know, and you just, the ball's now in their court. They're not going to respond positively, obviously, because they haven't in the past. But at least you've put it there. And then you, that's it, you go no contact. I always say, because some people hate the finality of it, they hate that it's this final thing. So that's why people struggle to pull the plug on the relationship.

But I always say, if you want a relationship, there's, I've given you exactly what I need. There's the formula. If you came back and just catered to these basic needs, I would genuinely be open to trying again. But as it stands, no, I'm done. And you've shown time and time again that you can't change. So to make people feel more open to the idea, you're not saying I'm cutting you out forever, it's done. Never again no matter what.

Because that's so, like I said, people go through so many evolutions in their life. You know, I've seen people make crazy adjustments. I've seen a mom kick her son out because he was gay and she's like, I can't accept it, I can't accept it, to within two years posting all his, um, drag photos on her Facebook being like so proud oh my god how beautiful the change that people can make because she kicked him out and he went no contact and she's like i've literally lost my son yeah and it's completely my decision that was my fault that was my fault yeah so not not to get your hopes up thinking oh my god this is what's going to cause the change absolutely have zero expectations because you've

seen the track record but just say look i'm done i'm actually done with this relationship as it stands I'm done forever. If you want to create a new one, I'd definitely be open to that. If you want to create a new one. Yeah. I actually really, it's like you're not trying to repair the old relationship.

It's done. It's finished. It's finished. I've had enough. Yeah. Like you've reached here. The limit, I'm walking away.

But yeah, like I'm always, people innately want to connect. They want, you know, so you're likely to, if they were to come in five years time, two years time and say,

I fucked up. I'm willing, I want to give it a shot. I know, exactly what it is that you need. You've explained it to me and I'm going to try. You're going to likely be like, yeah, I want to. Yeah. You know, geez. I actually loved, that was quite profound for me listening to that. Oh, good. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Being like, wow, that's, that's such a good like, I do think that people, oh, I hate to say people are good, but I think it's easier for people

to make the right decisions by you when you show them how you deserve to be treated. And I know it feels like such a burden sometimes and it is really hard to be like I I wish I had family members where I didn't have to do this where I didn't have to give them like a guidebook. It's sad for a lot of people. It's hard. On human empathy. Yeah. I know. That's so difficult. But it's also one of those things where you get to decide at this moment whether that burden is worth it or whether you don't want to take it on. And that is like only a decision that you can make. I really think that quite deeply. Like you, you really have to make that decision for yourself. And it is a pros and cons list

that I'm sure is extensive and complex and nuanced. But it does take time. And I think that hopefully this episode is like given you the right equipment to know how to do that and know how to get to that point where you do think that drastic measures need to be taken. And it's very, it is empowering when you do finally come to a decision and make that decision. Because a lot of people that are in these really manipulative relationships

have issues with their own relationship with themselves, especially if you were raised in that environment. So it's probably really hard to make a call like that and put yourself first when you've been around that environment for so long. And like I always say, if someone's been grown up in this beautiful, happy family, happy family, it's easy to look and say, oh, just like, who gives a fuck, who cares, yeah. But it's like, no, you've raised in that environment.

So for you to even make that call or to make the change, it takes a lot. And I think it will actually be your first step into really, really building on your relationship with yourself. You know, it's, you've got to, like, you teach people how to treat you. I totally believe that. You have to teach people how to treat you. And if it means walking away and saying, I cannot do this anymore, that's a huge statement.

But you have to follow through with it because then, you know, if you, you know, it's not to say, I've cut you out forever like we just spoke about, but it is saying, I cannot do this to myself anymore. Yeah. Actually, Christmas slash holidays, great time to do it. Missing a big family holiday doesn't mean that you've cut your, self out of their life, but it does send a pretty clear message. It sends a very clear message.

Not permanent, but also very powerful. Very. I think that this is a... And it's not aggressive. It's not aggressive. It's just your absence. It's your absence and your absence speaks louder than words sometimes. No response is also a response.

2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts,

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To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

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In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle, prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so much. I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Grega lesbian, Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for coming on.

I feel like that was such an important discussion to be having around this time. obviously I think I can speak from both of us like sending a lot of love and strength and empathy to you guys and sympathy that you are having to go through this experience around this time. I know it can be hard seeing really happy families who seem to have no problems. Every family has their problems. I will say that from the bottom of my heart and you are doing an amazing job. Yeah. Yeah.

Definitely not alone. Where can they find you? If they do not know who you are already, firstly ridiculous, but where can they find you? So the podcast is called Do You Fucking Mind? Or like it's spelt do you F asterix, asterix, asterisk, M. M. And it's like an orange artwork with the content and me.

I'll put it in the description. Alexis, thank you so much for coming on. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five-star review. Wherever you are listening right now, if you have an episode suggestion, something that we haven't spoken about that you would love to hear from us.

please follow me at That Psychology Podcast and you can send us a DM over there. I hope you enjoyed this episode. As always, we will be back next week with another one. Have a great weekend. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Keer Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor?

It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Ellen, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern.

Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Alesspian. Michael Mancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO% on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover

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