The Psychology of your 20s - 154. Why does healthy love feel boring? ft. Sarah Yudkin

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

When we experience healthy love for the first time after years of unsettling, unhealthy, toxic relationships, one of the first reactions we can have is "why does this feel so boring?" Often we confuse safety with a lack of passion, or assume that just because this person doesn't activate our nervous system, we are missing the spark. This is often left over from past relationships where we have confused anxiety with excitement.  In this episode, we bring on Sarah Yudkin, the founder of You Love and You Learn to break down the relationship anxiety that comes with experiencing healthy love for the first time and how to dissect your relationship OCD, the unconscious ways we sabotage relationships and all that comes with it. Listen now.    Sarah's website: https://www.youloveandyoulearn.com/  Follow Sarah on Instagram: @youloveandyoulearn Follow the Podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast Follow me on Instagram: @jemmasbeg    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s, and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we break down the psychology of our 20s. Today, we're going to talk about love. Love, meaning someone new, being obsessed with them is honestly one of the best feelings that I think

we can experience. There is something special about those early days that is just so exciting and addictive. It feels like the honeymoon period is going to last forever. And then obviously at some stage, real life kind of sets back in. Or for some of us, that initial craziness is really, really terrifying. It's really scary to feel like this person who we may love might actually be a source of fear for us, not because they are unsafe, but because what we are experiencing for the first time is healthy love. And that healthy love feels like boredom. It can cause us to call into question all of these different things, whether this person is actually right for us. And I really want to break that down today. And that big question of,

why does healthy love sometimes feel boring? And does this sense of boredom truly mean that this person is not right for you? Or is it just your relationship anxiety popping up at the worst time? We are joined by the brilliant Sarah Yudkin for this episode from You Love and You Learn. I'm so excited to have her on because she speaks so much about relationship anxiety and the ways that it gets in our way of finding really fulfilling. feeling love and relationship. So Sarah, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk about this. I feel like I can talk about it all day.

So buckle up. My goodness. I know. Well, it's so interesting because you listened to an episode that we did around relationship of anxiety with Katie and you were like, oh my goodness, this sounds exactly like what I talk about in my practice. And it's really not spoken about that much. I don't think I even really came across it until I got into my most recent relationship and was like, why is this suddenly so hard yet so easy? Like I feel like that is such a much more common experience than we know. Before I jump into it, though, I feel like I'm just jumping the gun. Are you able to like briefly introduce yourself? Tell us about who you are about your work. Yeah, of course. So I'm Sarah and I have.

help people who are in healthy, loving relationships. I always give that disclaimer right from the jump that we're not talking about abuse here, but I help people who are in healthy, loving relationships, but also who have anxiety that's holding them back. And the reason why I fell into this work is because my parents got a divorce actually when I was in my 20s. And at the time, I kind of stuffed it down and was like, it's okay. I get why they did it. They're better off. They're happier. And I thought that I didn't necessarily. care that much. I was like, it is what it is. But when I found myself in a very safe, loving relationship, I very quickly realized that the fear of divorce kind of was looming in the background.

And right when things started getting serious with now my fiance, but at the time, my boyfriend, I was like, what if I got a divorce? How do I know I'm not going to get a divorce? How do I pick the perfect person and make sure that he has no. red flags and that everything is exactly what I'm envisioning in order to make sure that this doesn't happen. And I realized that it did affect me a lot more than I thought at the time. And maybe I hadn't fully processed the fears around love and relationships. And so I just became so fascinated by it. And now I help others through their journey with that. Oh, my goodness. That's actually, congratulations on your engagement as well. That is so beautiful. Thank you. And I think

a story that is so much more commonplace than we think. Like, there are so many small things in our past, in our childhoods, even in our adolescence and our 20s that really shape how we approach and see love. And I think you can experience anxiety in any area of your life in which there is fear, any area of your life in which you have expectations or a false alarm. So can you kind of explain what relationship anxiety actually is? What kind of sets it apart from what we would typically see anxiety as being? Yeah, definitely. So my take is that there's kind of like a, I don't even like the word normal,

but I'm just going to use it here for this case. I think there's a normal amount of questions that could come up when you're committing to someone for the rest of your life. like, oh, is this someone I want to be with or, you know, kind of just like assessing the situation. Whereas relationship anxiety takes it up a notch to a whole other level. And a question such as, is my partner funny enough, can turn into a three week spiral because then it's not only are they funny enough, but oh my gosh, I'm never going to laugh in my life and I'm going to wake up one day and realize that I could have married this other person that was funnier. And so relationship

anxiety is doubt about your healthy relationship. And again, I say the word healthy because if you're having anxiety because you're being mistreated, then that's not what we're talking about here. But it's really taking up a notch the normal questioning or doubts that might come up in a relationship. And it can come in the form of physical symptoms, like your chest tightens, you have lurching stomach when you think about the future. You feel maybe like, warm or sweaty sometimes when you're trying to kind of sort out how to move forward in your relationship or it can come in the more mental symptoms like overthinking, waking up and kind of starting to initially ask questions about your relationship or getting home after spending time

with your partner and kind of fact-checking everything and having this microscope of was that fun enough, did I feel good enough, all of that. So that's a little bit more about it, but I'm happy to explain anything else as far as how it comes up to. It's really interesting because all of those, I don't know if they're symptoms, but all of those, let's just call them feelings or indicators of relationship anxiety, feel a lot like justified anxiety, feel a lot like, not so much justified anxiety, but justified fears, right? Like, I think the thing about anxiety of any form but particular relationship,

anxiety is that there is, it's very difficult to distinguish between, is this actually a real fear or is this a false alarm? And if I ignore what is a real fear, what are the consequences of that going to be? So I think that that hypervigilance also comes from like a place of like perfectionism as well, of like, I want to ensure that I make no mistakes when it comes to this, that I'm not overlooking anything that could potentially harm me. and then I think it comes down to inevitably what is self-sabotage, where because you are so hypervigilant over every single minute detail of your relationship, you don't actually give someone space to be imperfect or to be authentic

or to maybe do things that you don't totally love and adore, but which are part of like our quirks. Do you think that relationship anxiety causes us to self-sabotage a lot? Definitely. Definitely. And I want to circle back to one thing you just said, which is that it can be really hard to parse out what is your anxiety versus what is your fear. And I just want to remind people that love and relationships have a lot of risk associated with them. Right. So no matter how happy you are in the relationship or no matter how safe or no matter how steady the relationship is, we don't get guarantees, right? Like we don't know. what's going to happen in the future. And there's a lot of potential loss or, you know, people have fear of abandonment, fear of failure. Like, what does it mean if this doesn't work out? And I put all of this energy into it. What if I lose myself or sacrifice part of myself in this

relationship? There's so many fears that can come up. And so I just want to normalize the fact that if love, for whatever reason, feels scary or intimidating to you, that that is okay and that is valid and it's very understandable. And so to the point then about self-sabotage, if love hasn't felt safe to you because of maybe a relationship you had with a parent or a caretaker, or maybe it was seeing your parents split up or argue all the time or never argue and so you put pressure on yourself never to do that. Or maybe you had a past relationship that didn't work. Even a past friendship. Like there can be so many reasons why love hasn't felt safe to us. And then we compare our love with social media and seeing kind of like the perfectionism of that.

And so then we start to your point adding all of that perfectionism on top of the fear. And so it can be really hard to suss everything out. And that's why I think we end up unintentionally, of course, self-sabotaging because it feels overwhelming. It feels scary. It feels like we have to get it right. And so if there's any evidence that this isn't right, I'm getting the ick. this person clearly doesn't understand me, they're clearly not my soulmate, then we can put that block up and be like, well, they're clearly not it. So I might as well just kind of put this to a stop

and either behave in a way that they end it or I should just end. So you made a really good point about if you perhaps haven't had any good role models for what love maybe should look like, healthy love. And also if you've had like a sequence of terrible relationships that have taught you the version of love that you should not be aspiring to, right? People who have belittled you, people who have neglected you in some way, who have not treated you with respect, who have just been perhaps quite cruel or quite unaligned with who you are. After those experiences, I think we begin to question what love actually is and we get a little bit confused about what it looks like. How can we actually tell what healthy love is? How can we tell when it is actually safe?

It's a great question. And I feel like, you know, my answer might not be the only answer, right? Because love is such a vague concept. But I think when it comes to, especially moving away from an unhealthy love into a healthy love, what we're looking for is, feeling like both people or all the people involved can feel safe to be who they are and that there's doesn't have to be 100% equal but like both people are showing up and giving energy to the love and I think healthy love is about giving and receiving versus what can I get from this or only what can I give where you're not getting anything back and that's kind of like at a very fundamental level but I also think that love and this is a new belief that I had to form over the last few years that felt really helpful for me is that love

is not just a feeling love is a verb love is an action love is a practice and there's this really beautiful quote i believe it was from paolo cacchello who wrote the alchemist but he said something along the lines of like you can only find love through the act of loving and that feels really good to me because even if I'm not in a fully loving mood, I know I can act loving. And it doesn't mean that like you're necessarily pretending, but it's more of like taking the action towards someone you love or towards something you love and then kind of generating it versus just sitting there waiting for it to fall into your lap or waiting for your partner to bring you the flowers for you to feel love, if that makes sense. It makes so much sense because I do think that this is also a

belief that I've had, like, the older that I've gotten, which is that, like, it should be intentional, like, love should be intentional. The same way that you don't love your hobbies all the time, or you don't love your, like, passion all the time, there are going to be moments where you do need to actually be, like, an active player. And I think the reason why we treat love sometimes like that is because we're used to thinking of love as, like, this passive thing that we fall into, we think of love as this like outside emotion that comes to us and fills us up and that there's nothing we can really do to change that. I think it's because of like a lot of those narratives around love being like destined or like intertwined with fate and all of these

like very magical beautiful principles. But it takes away human agency sometimes and it takes away the sense that like, hey no, like I can actually, I actually have a say in this. I have a say in like how I want to be in this relationship, in this situation. And then there's another component of this that I think I really want to hear your opinion on, which is that we can know what healthy love should look like. But for some of us, for some of us, it can actually be quite uncomfortable. So even if we know that like healthy love should feel easy, healthy love should feel peaceful, it also sometimes feels boring.

And this is something that I hear all the time, which is, I feel like I found the one, but it feels boring. Or I'm worried about it becoming boring the longer I'm with this person. I'm worried that, like, I didn't have this really intense spark. There wasn't this chase. What does that mean for my relationship? Can you kind of, like, why do you think we confuse safe with boring? So many reasons. Well, one thing that's kind of unrelated to love, but I'm going to bring into this conversation right from the jump is if you think about TikTok or Instagram Reels, they've become so popular and so addicting in the last few years especially because you're scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and you don't know what you're going to get. Every new thing is, it's like you have this anticipation, right? And that's what dopamine is about. It's the molecule of anticipation.

So when you're in the thrill of the chase of like, oh, or even when you just meet someone new, even if it's really healthy, you're like, oh, are we going to kiss tonight for the first time? Like, where are we going to go to dinner next week? Like, oh, I'm just constantly thinking about them. And like, it's new. It's exciting. What am I going to learn about this person? So there's a lot of anticipation. And that's wonderful.

But eventually there becomes a point where it's not necessarily. needed to have so much anticipation when you become more committed to somebody because you know where they stand, you know where you stand, and that can be a beautiful thing. But then it does take away some of that anticipation. It takes away some of that dopamine. And unfortunately, there's kind of two opposite sides of the pendulum. I'm not sure if you've read Meeting in Captivity by Esther Perel or if you're familiar with it. But I absolutely love that book. And the concept she talks about is that passion and desire are on the opposite pendulum of comfort and safety. And it makes sense because one of them thrives off of uncertainty, mystery, newness,

and the other one thrives off of comfort and safety and reliability. And so as you have more reliability and more comfort, more emotional connection in your relationship, inevitably you're kind of moving away from that opposite and end of the desire, excitement, newness pendulum. And that doesn't mean you can't infuse that into your relationship. But if you want a relationship with stability and commitment, you're automatically taking away some of the mystery to begin with that unhealthy love has, which is that chase you mentioned, or sometimes they respond, sometimes they don't.

Or even if you're the one kind of running away from someone chasing you, like neither of those are fully committed people. It's kind of like this push-pull dynamic. Oh my goodness. So spot on. The pendulum that you just described, I think that is entirely accurate. And I like that you said it doesn't mean that you can't have those occasionally,

but it is almost, I hate to say that it's a choice, but there does come a point, I think, especially in our 20s, where we have to decide, do I want to keep pursuing these people? people that constantly make me feel anxious, even though that feels exciting. Do I want to constantly be around people where it's like, this is fun, not because I'm entertained,

but because I'm stressed. Like, we confuse, like, feelings of anxiety and excitement and passion and, like, actually just nervous arousal so often. And I do feel like, and I'm speaking from personal experience and from the experience of friends, you get to this point where you're like, okay, there is this group. of people who are going to make me feel this way, which is the excitement, the passion, and whatnot. And then there's this other group of people who will actually make me feel really calm and who will respect my boundaries. And they might not be my first choice. That doesn't

mean that they need to be completely counted out. Because if you're really thinking about like what you want in the future, if what you want is healthy love, that might not look how you thought it would, you know, like it might not look how you were sold it in the movie. and in TV shows and even by your parents and even by social media. Like, I feel like that also plays a massive role in what we come to expect from our partners. For sure. And I've had clients, and I understand exactly where they're coming from when they say this, but I've had people come to me and maybe they're just in one session or at the beginning of our time together.

And they're like, my partner liked me back right away. And they told me they liked me back right away. and part of me was like, why don't they have anyone else that they're like available talking to you? Or like, are they just lame or something? Like it's almost like we want the safe person. But then when the safe person is actually there and committed, we don't. And I think in theory it feels nice to be like, oh, this guy was dating around, but they chose me as if we win some kind of trophy. But if you actually hear how I just said that, it's like that's not actually.

necessarily something to look up to. It's just that you won something and you got to have an ego boost. But then when the safe, healthy person's available and telling you that they're into you, for some reason, that gives people the ick. Yeah, it gives me. It used to give me the ick a little bit. Because I think that it's like also very and like very patriarchal where it's like... That's true. You know what I mean? Where it's like women like you need to be pursued. you like it's not meant to be like easy you need to like tie him down and I know that's like a very like heteronormative way of looking at it but that does infuse it to think I think everyone's minds where it's like we have been sold like unrealistic relationship like trope that actually probably

won't make us happy but because we might not see a lot of other examples of that we only want this thing that like is unhealthy but looks really good it's kind of like I always give the analogy of the difference between like a really, really fulfilling, like, salad or a really, like, nutritional meal and, like, McDonald's or, like, or, like, something that's, like, super, like, high and saturated fat and sugary. I think that those relationships that feel really exciting and passionate and, like, euphoric and, like, intense, that is your, like, fast food right there. Like, that is going to make, that is just going to, like, set your taste buds.

It's going to set your brain on fire. It's going to be delicious. and then you're going to be left feeling sick, like, a couple hours later, and, like, it's not necessarily what's best for your body, even though it's what feels best in the moment. And then you have something like a really nutritious, like a nutritional, nutritious meal. And a nutritious meal is like, okay, yeah, maybe it's not as, like, exciting, but also you're going to feel healthier. You're going to live better, might even live longer. Like, you're going to just have a better sense of wellness.

And the same goes for relationships, especially those. in our 20s. So how can we kind of tell when the person we're dating isn't right for us? What are some of the warning signs of that like really electric individual who isn't leaving us feeling safe, but also might not be leaving us feeling bored? Yeah. Well, I think that what I talked about earlier with like that two-way street, you know, love being give and take, that feels really important. Where if you feel like it's kind of that whole what am I going to get from this person like oh sometimes they text me back in two hours and sometimes it takes three days you know that feels like it's going to be the more exciting thing because you're left on your toes but to me it feels really important to

have someone who is giving you their commitment or at least communicating hey I have a really busy week I'll check back in later that feels important and feeling like you can share your authentic self, not feeling like you're performing for that person. Because one of the reasons I believe that people, you know, in the honeymoon stage or whatever, they kind of have this like fantasy of a person. And one of the reasons I think they can slip over later to like, oh, I don't know if I like this person anymore is because you're both kind of putting this act on unintentionally, but you're like, I need to make sure that they think that I do this and this and this and this type person, which is, I'm sure some of who you are, but if you don't peel the curtain back on some of your vulnerable

self, then how are you going to know if they receive that and honor that in you? So I think even though it's scary to do, and maybe you don't do it in the first 10 minutes, but throughout getting to know somebody, can you show up as your more vulnerable self? And are you met with that? And one last thing is just kind of someone who creates a safe space for you to have feelings that aren't just positive vibes only. That feels really important, especially for anyone listening who may also have anxiety. It's like I'm not showing up perfectly all the time, but my partner is able to honor if I'm having feelings that aren't positive, quote, and help support me. I put this thing on my Instagram the other day that was like,

how did you know when the person you're dating was the one, or the person that you are married to was the one? And that was one of the biggest things that people said was they honored both the positive sides of me and the, like, I don't want to say negative, but like the ugliest sides of me, the sides of me that I would prefer to hide. Like it is that, like, true acceptance that is, like, the most beautiful thing about love.

but you also made a really good point about the honeymoon phase. I, when I first started dating my partner, was terrified of the honeymoon phase ending. Because I think I'd spent a lot of my 20s loving the initial stages of a relationship, right? Like, it's so fun. It's so fun when, like, you really don't know anything about someone and, like, everything they're doing is, like, surprising you

and they're really trying to win you over. like you said, maybe even putting up like a bit of a facade, like a bit of a false persona. When the honeymoon period ends, how can we identify whether it is just the end of like the beginnings of the relationship or whether some of the feelings that we're associating with the end of the honeymoon phase is really like a sign that maybe this is the wrong relationship for us. Like does that make sense? Like is it just the honeymoon phase? or is the relationship actually doomed? Yeah, definitely.

I think if your whole relationship is based off of feelings alone, then that's where it could be the beginning of the end. If you're only relying on your feelings, because feelings are going to come and go and you use this beautiful word autonomy earlier, like taking away our human autonomy of choosing, if you are only in a relationship because it's destined and your soulmates, then there's no choice, there's no intention.

intentionality. There's no showing up and building and creating a beautiful love. And so I think that if someone, the feelings completely fade and you're looking across at the other person, you're like, wait, we have nothing in common. We don't have any shared goals for life. We don't accept and respect who this person is sitting across from each other, then that doesn't feel like the foundations of a healthy relationship moving forward. Whereas if you have a lot of shared values, if you, accept the differences of this person. If you feel like you can at least be moving on parallel paths, like, in similar directions, you don't have to completely intertwine and do everything in your life together.

But if you're doing your thing and they're doing theirs and then you have your thing together, do you feel like that's moving in a direction that you can be excited about, right? And even though the future's out of your hands, does it feel like an exciting notion? And to me, that's really important. And I don't think that that's the sexy thing of like, oh, our values are aligned. Yay. But the acceptance and the respect of who this person is, that feels really big. And so when the feelings fade, if you don't have that, like, I don't know if that is a great jumping off point, to be fair.

Yeah. And what are you even going to talk about? Yeah. Like, if you're not, you know, if you don't have the feelings and you don't have like the values or like the future, it's, kind of, I think it's very hard to stay in that place. The other beautiful thing that someone told me the other day, which really lessened my fear of the honeymoon phase ending. And it's similar to what you were just talking about is think about all the versions of this person that you are yet to meet. And all the versions that you are going to get to fall in love with in the

future. And me and my partner do this all the time where we're like, oh, you know what version of me? Like, you haven't met yet. Like, you haven't met like the version. of me that's going to be like a father. You haven't met like the version of me that's going to be like retired. You haven't met the version of me that's going to be like, it's going to be in Paris next year. Like you know what I mean? It's like you did not just fall in, I don't think you've just fallen in love with one person. You fall in love with many versions of that one person that you will like continue to see over your life together if that's something that you want. I don't know. It always just brings me so much peace thinking about that. That's so beautiful.

And it's so open-minded and open-hearted compared to what sometimes happens is like we have this exact view of the perfect partner. They need to be exactly this and they need to stay exactly like this or they're changing when what you just shared is like this. It's just this like room for possibilities and knowing that you're going to evolve just like they will too. And that you get to have many different chapters in your book. It doesn't have to just stay the same page repeating forever. It's so true. And that's like the thing, when you stay in relationships that make you feel passionate and, like, excited, that is the same chapter just repeating over and over again. You know what I mean? That is where you actually stop growing because you are really just addicted

to a feeling rather than to, like, a person and rather than to your growth and rather than to something that is, like, has longevity. Like, someone said this to me, like, asked me the other day, like, is love, is it just chemical? And to some extent, I do think that, like, the early stages of love really are. And that's why it's so addictive and so bonding. But it doesn't mean that that can't transform into something that is more, I don't know, everlasting and not just based on, like, a series of neurotransmitters that spike and decline and whatnot. Totally. And there's been research on the difference between what they call passionate love, which is about like dopamine firing

and then there's eventually this shift into more companion at love which has more of like the feel good chemicals like serotonin oxytocin and it doesn't mean that like you can't again infuse passion into a companion at love but the companion at love isn't just based off the feelings alone it's based off of a shared connection and showing up for one another and creating that love together versus just kind of like waiting for it to fall into your lap every morning Once again, the agency, the autonomy. Our two favorite words for this episode.

So, say there's someone listening to this who is like, all right, I'm like a year into my relationship. I'm a couple years in. And I feel like things are slowing down. Or they've just started dating someone and they're like, this is my first time experiencing healthy love. I'm constantly worried when it's going to end. I'm worried when the tables are going to turn. What are some of the ways that you think we can challenge those instances of relationship anxiety where, like you mentioned before, it may not actually be a problem you're just experiencing

that hypervigilance and that false alarm? Yeah, absolutely. Well, one thing that has been really helpful for me is to practice compassion for the general experience of relationship anxiety. So, like, as a whole, finding compassion for the fact that I have found love to be somewhat intimidating or somewhat scary, like, giving it a new meaning that this isn't something horrible that's happened to me. It's more like, this is something that I really care about and I really value.

And so it does scare me sometimes to think about it, not working out or whatever it is. Like, that needs to be there versus the judgment. and the criticism for experiencing that. And then also in those micro moments, too, if you have a trigger pop up, or maybe because your walls came up, you kind of said something critical to your partner when you really actually were craving connection,

but your anxiety came up and led you to kind of push them away in some way. Instead of letting that shame spiral go on for hours or days, just acknowledging that was a moment of anxiety. It wasn't my best, but how can I take one next act? towards love, towards reconnection, and that can be loving yourself or loving the partner. But I think so often we just beat ourselves up for this experience. And then not only do we stay disconnected from our relationship, but it's just really critical up in our brain too.

And I don't think that you can shame yourself out of past trauma. Like you cannot, or bad habits. Like you cannot shame yourself out of any of those things. I just think that it just actually ends up exacerbating it because you feel less like emotionally in control. You feel like your emotions are less valid. I really love that tip. The other one I would say is, and I'm sure you talk about this a lot as well,

actually take time to understand where, like what the trigger is, like you said. Like really break it down and be like, okay, I can really, identify that this came from the fact that in my previous relationship, you know, my partner used to pull away from me as soon as I was, when I did something that he perceived as wrong. Or he would like give and take affection like it was like a tool for control. And so this person maybe just actually setting a healthy boundary with me and being like, oh, I've got to work late. sorry, that is triggering because it, like, it feels like a repeat of a past situation. And actually just tell them, like, just tell your partner that that's what you're feeling.

I had to do this recently. And it was, like, it was hard to be like, oh, this is why. But as soon as, like, that was made known, it made a lot of sense, more sense to both of us and actually made it a lot healthier. Absolutely. I love that one. And if I may add one more into the mix too. Sometimes anxiety can just be this big cluttered mess in the mind and we try to think our way out.

So are they the one? How can I be sure? Let me Google this. It just becomes this like upward spiral almost like this dust of so much potential outcomes. It gets really hard to actually figure that out. So if you're feeling overwhelmed in that moment, what you just said is a perfect thing to do. maybe if you're like, if you've gotten a little bit more grounded, you're like, okay, let me dissect this trigger a bit so I can have that awareness. But if you're just like in the thick of it,

one thing I found is really important is to bring the body in some way and remind yourself that in the present moment, you are safe. So unless you are physically unsafe and something's actually happening to you in that moment, your brain and body are signaling danger, but there isn't necessarily danger. So maybe your partner just said something kind of weird and then you're firing off like, oh gosh, like I don't know if I could be with someone like that and then it feels really scary inside, but taking some deep breaths or using your five senses to come back to the space around you where you are and taking some time to get grounded and remembering like I'm physically safe in this moment. I'm sitting across from my partner or I'm on the couch with my partner.

like I'm not actually in danger here because we think we are. And then it can feel like we need to solve the danger or fix the danger right away versus getting a little bit of space from it. Yeah, I love that. I'm sorry, but when you said we think that we can, what outthink anxiety? Is that what you said? Like something like that. Oh, my goodness.

I'm like, wow, that is so true. If we think about it more, suddenly we're going to find this a little. but it really just makes us more anxious. That is like a real slap in the face for me. I'm like real call out. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts. and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory.

We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so... Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes, I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years. for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience

in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses Steve Burns Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you

hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that that's two different levels of trust I want you to just really be a good person join me Kear gains is we have real conversations about healing growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. L.S. Correct? I doctored the test one. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Gregalespian and Michael Marantini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news. at Ameriopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I have one final question for you, which is, what do we do when we feel bored? When our relationship does feel a little bit boring, how can we shift that up, change that up? So I would say two key things here. The first one might be surprising because I'm not going to start within the relationship. I'm going to start within yourself because sometimes we get into a relationship and we stop doing the things that light us up that make us feel excited. Our creativity, our time with our friends, our travel, our learning new things, the things that make us feel like we have exciting things in our life. and if you're not doing that, then you're going to also project the boredom you feel in your life onto the relationship. Because we've been sold this idea that once you find the one

or once you find a partner, then all your problems are solved and you just ride off into the sunset and like they kind of make you complete or make you whole. But I want people listening to check in with themselves of, has my relationship gotten boring or have I all? also gotten boring and that contributes to how my relationship is feeling. That's the first component. And the second component is bringing some of that anticipation or newness back into the relationship. So trying new things together, whether that's a new restaurant, a new trip, a new day trip, a new

new hobby, a new activity, even like asking your partner what's something you've always wanted to do and maybe you don't love it, but you still try it for them. And then you don't, do something that you love. It could be like physically like with intimacy to like just I don't know spice things up a bit. Like I feel like we get into these very conditional like routines where we're just like, all right, this is working. So let's keep it going. This feels safe like we've talked about. But then eventually we need that uncertainty back. We need that mystery. And we have to be responsible for creating it. Oh my goodness. We have to be responsible for creating our own mystery. Very, very true. I honestly completely agree with you. And the hobby thing is really important.

And also the friendships, I think that when we start dating someone, they become like the new center of our like social orbit and like our social universe. And it causes like everyone else to be pushed out a little bit. And I think that's natural because they are, they do require like a huge investment of time and energy to get the relationship to a point where it is like a true love. But sometimes I think we get like six months in and we look around and we're like, oh, okay, we need to recalibrate here and like bring some of those other important plays in my life back into the equation. So I want to say, thank you so much for coming on, Sarah. I actually feel like this was selfishly just free therapy for me. I'm like, just listening to you being like, yeah,

all right, let me write that down, like check. So I really do appreciate all your knowledge. and your opinions and just your value. Where can the listeners find you to learn more? Yeah, thank you so much. I receive those kind words and I love this conversation as well. And people can find me at You Love and You Learn both on Instagram and TikTok. And then I have a podcast as well, the You Love and You Learn podcast, which is much more focused on like relationship anxiety themes.

So I love your podcast, how it goes. like wide with so many amazing topics and mine is very kind of narrowed in on love and relationships so if that's people's jam then I'd love to have you come over and take a peek absolutely and actually I have listened to some of your episodes when I've been in like a little bit of like a relationship brought and they are super super helpful so I really do recommend if this episode really like resonated with you in any sense please go and see what Sarah is creating it's very very beautiful as always if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with a friend who needs to hear it, leave a

five-star review, and make sure that you're following along so you know when new episodes come out live. Additionally, if you have an episode suggestion or something that you would like us to talk about, please shoot me a DM, shoot me a message at That Psychology Podcast and follow us over there to see all of the behind-the-scenes content. We will be back next week with another episode. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kare Games. This space is about black men's experiences,

having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to Learn the Hardway on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcast.

In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice in selling, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg, a lesbian, Michael Mancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is love trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships. and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO%.

On the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves.

We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.