The Psychology of your 20s - 156. Dating with an anxious attachment style ft. Thais Gibson

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

Dating with an anxious attachment style comes with a number of challenges: struggling to feel secure, requiring constant reassurance, mistrust, a fear of abandonment, feeling unworthy of love or difficulty setting boundaries. But your attachment style is not a life sentence, it is something you can challenge and heal by embracing vulnerability, healthy love, boundary setting and applying the love you crave from others to yourself. We are joined by the wonderful Thais Gibson, an author, speaker, leader in the personal development field and founder of The Personal Development School as we break down what it means to date and love as someone who is anxiously attached.  Find Thais here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHQ4lSaKRap5HyrpitrTOhQ  The attachment quiz we spoke of: https://attachment.personaldevelopmentschool.com/quiz  Follow us on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast  For business enquiries: [e-mail]     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. The new listeners, old listeners, whatever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we break down the psychology of our 20s. A question I get a lot on the podcast is how to date as someone who is anxiously attached. How to date as someone who has a lot of anxiety and kind of worry to do with romantic attachment, to do with intimacy, to do with connection. And I think that it is a lot more common in this day and age than we perhaps acknowledge. So I thought today, what a great opportunity to break down what attachment theory is,

some of the misconceptions about it, and then focus in on those of us who are dating with an anxious attachment style, what that looks like in a relationship, and how we can kind of move past these tendencies. Of course, we had to bring on a guest, Hayes Gibson, who knows so much more about this than I do. She is incredible. Welcome to the show. I'm so excited.

So for those of you who don't know, Taise has this incredible YouTube channel, which I'm going to refer to first where, and a lot of other things as well, but the YouTube channel was really how I kind of like began to consume your wisdom and your work. where you break down a lot to do with attachment theory and dating, not just in our 20s, but at all ages. But can you give the listeners kind of a little bit of a, a little bit of a blurb of who you are?

Yes. So basically I run a business called The Personal Development School. We put all sorts of content on YouTube. I am like obsessed with attachment style of people. I just love human behavior. I love talking about dating and relationships. It's been a huge passion of mine. And I actually ran a client-based practice for about 10 years.

and just had a very long wait list of like two years or so. And so it was like, okay, that's not really the best solution. So how do I kind of reach more people in a way that makes sense? So we eventually put a whole bunch of different online courses together, have the personal development school. I've written a couple books and basically put out free content on YouTube all the time. Like almost every day, lots of information. And there's a big focus specifically around dating, attachment theory,

the subconscious mind, and like really how to change our attachment style. Because I think attachment style is this thing that maybe you're thinking about it, but it really is kind of in the backdrop of a lot of our decisions and a lot of our actions, particularly when it comes to love, but any kind of relationship. So making people more consciously aware of it is so valuable because I think attachment theory is one of those like phenomena where once you understand it, so much about your life begins to make sense. so much about your life. It's like suddenly crystal clear. Are you able to like briefly break down what attachment theory is for people who might not have an understanding? Absolutely. So first of all, I think what everybody needs to know is that every single person has what we call an attachment style. So attachment theory is basically the work of John Bowlby originally done and he talked about how our relationship in terms of how we learn love and connection. In other words,

how we learn to attach to our caregivers in childhood, basically become the set of rules that we think for our adult lives in terms of what love is supposed to look like. So we sort of take these rules, these ideas about how we're supposed to attach to others, what connection is supposed to look like. And we essentially start living our adult romantic relationships by those rules. But I found when I first went back into attachment theory, there were a couple things missing.

Number one was this idea of, okay, well, what if we don't have a healthy set of rules, right? What if we have an insecure attachment style? there really wasn't much information on how we can change to become securely attached. And the second thing is, you know, there's not a ton of information about how each of the different attachments I'll interact with one another. And that's like really mind blowing. Like when you said a moment ago that if we have, you know, the awareness of what each of the attachment cells are, suddenly everything kind of makes sense. You know, before we understand that every single person has an attachment style and this is a subconscious set of rules we have for love, often what we don't realize

is happening is it's almost like we're sitting down. And if you can imagine as an analogy, we sit down and we try to play a board game with somebody. But they have a different set of rules for how the game is supposed to be played. Like you have the rules for Scrabble. I have the rules for monopoly. Like it's going to be chaos. And so when we finally can realize, oh, we just have different rule books. And oh, now I know what your rule book is. I can read it. Oh, you know my rule book. We can find a way to work things out and to create something new and something amazing. But without that, we usually purse lines everything so much and we take on all this confusion. So because of that, there's four major attachment styles that everybody really needs to know and understand.

And every single person has one of these four styles. So the first style is statistically the style that does the best in relationships, has the easiest time. They are called the secure attachment style. Securely attached people essentially get a lot of really healthy parenting in childhood. So they get a few key really crucial components. Number one is they learn that if they cry or express emotion, their parent uses something called approach-oriented behavior. Basically goes towards them, wants to understand what's going on, tries to meet their needs.

Number two, because they try to meet their needs, they feel, the child feels safe, relying on other people and expressing their feelings and expressing their needs to others. And they learn to trust, number three. And number four, because of all of this, they feel this deeper sense of self-worth. Like, I'm just loved for who I am. My needs are worthy of being that by others just because. You're not because I earned it, not because I'm good enough or did something for it, but just because I exist.

And so securely attached children grow up to be adults with a really healthy rulebook. They think, hey, I can meet other people's needs. I can listen to their emotions. I can express my own. I can express my own needs. Healthy boundaries are okay. I'm worthy of love for who I am. I don't have to earn it all the time.

And so securely attached individuals statistically, according to the last, like, real big survey of research about 20 years ago was make up about 50% of people. Research more recently in smaller sample sizes seems to show that that number is declining quite rapidly, closer to about 30% of people are securely attached. And they statistically do the best in relationships, but again, that's roughly maybe 30% of people overall that are secure attachment styles. So then we have the other three. On one side, there's the anxious preoccupied, the anxiously attached style.

you can think of it as. And essentially the anxious attachment cell, what they do is in their childhood, they have a lot of love and care, but a lot of inconsistency around it. So a really common example would be that like both parents are very loving, but they work a lot. And so the child has a lot of love, but the parents are constantly coming and going, that maybe the child's staying with the grandparents who they're not as close with. And so the child keeps having love that's given and then taken away, love that's given and then taken away. And what's really interesting about that is how the subconscious mind gets programmed is through repetition and emotion. So if you have this repeated experience of love being given and then love being taken, it actually conditions into the

subconscious mind of fear of abandonment. And so anxiously attached individuals as adults, really fear abandonment, really fear of being alone, fear being not good enough or excluded or disliked. And they really try as a coping mechanism to maintain proximity to the people that they love. They try to hold on really tight. And sometimes that can make them a little bit clinging in relationships. And then on the far other end of the continuum, we have dismissive avoidant attachment style, who's pretty much the opposite, they grow up with some form of childhood emotional neglect. And what that means is that essentially even if food is on the table, even if it's not like overt neglect, it's more like under the radar neglect, we'll see that

the dismissive avoidant essentially like because children are wired for connection, for attunement, if a child growing up who's yearning for that connection, that present, from their caregivers doesn't have it. They just go, okay, well, it hurts to be this vulnerable and to feel like my needs won't get met. So I'm going to adapt to this by just denying that I need connection from other people. And so dismissive avoidance, push all their feelings down. They actually get conditioned to think because of their feelings not being made space for. They get conditioned to think that feelings are weak, useless, negative in some way.

So they deny and reject that part of themselves. They think that part of themselves is almost like defect. in a way and they shove it down and because of that as adults they're terrified of getting too close to people they're terrified of like opening up getting too close feeling like they did as a child feeling weak and vulnerable with their emotional needs couldn't get met and so as adults they often like cut and cut relationships out when things get real um they'll tend to like be afraid of commitment or just when things are getting too close they'll run the other direction so that's our dismissive avoidant and then very last but not least um this is the least common attachment

style, but I think it is statistically more common than people probably realize is the fearful avoidant. So the fearful avoidant grows up in a household where there's basically extreme conditions. So let's say, for example, that there's tons of fighting in the house, right? So you never know what you're going to get. You come home. Sometimes it's peace. Sometimes it's chaos. Sometimes mom is in a good mood. Sometimes that's in a terrible mood. Sometimes it's flipped. Or another really common example for what creates a fearful avoidant attachment style is that we might have a peace. parent, for example, who's an alcoholic. So let's just say, like, one day mom is drinking, child, the mom comes home, child's his mom, she's in a good mood. She's had a few drinks.

She's super loving and in a great mood. Then another day mom comes home, she's had way too many drinks and she's an angry drunk today. Another day mom's sobering up. She feels guilty. She's being kind. Another day mom's sobering up. She's going through withdrawal. She's in a terrible mood. So fearful of going to grow up in this space where, number one, they get conflicting ideas about love, something that sometimes has really nice experiences, sometimes has really terrifying experiences. So they want love, but they are afraid of it at the same time. And also, they feel like they never know what they're going to get. So they're super hypervigilant, always walking on eggshells. They kind of struggle to trust in relationships and they're very

hot and cold. It's like, come get close to me. Come get close. You get close and it's like, no, I changed my mind. Get away. And so they're very hot and cold and they actually share attributes of both the anxious and avoidance side. But they go back and forth between those sides on a really, really frequent basis. That is such a good summary. I'm like listening to that. And the point you made about parents who like work a lot is so valuable because I think often we just tend to imagine that it's extreme trauma that creates anything but a secure attachment style but it really is just any kind of inconsistencies as you said in the the love and the compassion and the and the support that we're shown I want to ask you something here that

has been on my mind, like, a lot. Is it just childhood experiences that create your attachment style, or can it equally be molded by early relationship experiences or even, like, recent relationship experiences? Amazing question. So we're not born with an attachment style. It forms over time based on, like, the conditions we're repeatedly exposed to. So because as children, we basically, like,

we're sort of in what we can call a hyper suggestible state, meaning that we are like really sponging up all of our programs in childhood. We're very impressionable. A lot of our programming runs deep. So our childhood attachment style is formed at a very early age and it often sticks with us for quite some time. But anything we are repeatedly exposed to for long enough that causes a big impact, again, that like repetition and emotion is what programs a subconscious mind,

then it can absolutely reprogram our attachment style. So for example, somebody could be secure, see their parents go through a really awful divorce at 15, and that could make them fearful, avoidant, or anxious. Or another example is you could be anxiously attached, get into a relationship with a narcissist. At the end of that relationship, you're now a fearful avoidant because there's a lot more substantial chaos and trauma. So our attachment cell can absolutely change, but you can think of the prerequisite as being, it's less likely to be one experience that changes it, but more for your attachment cell to change. there has to be a lot of repeated exposure to something different.

That's really important to note. It's the repetition that really counts. It's not like you've had, you've been ghosted one time by someone on a dating app and suddenly you're like an anxious avoidant. Like it's a repeat kind of experience. So I really want to focus on the anxious attachment style here. Because as you said, we have secure. That's the most common.

Anxious is the second most common. and it's increasing in prevalence, probably a lot in this current generation. I have two questions for you. A, why do you think that is? And B, what does that, what kind of consequences does that have for how we approach dating? Really great question. So I think there's two, there's a couple of reasons, right? I think one of the biggest ones, just quite honestly, is like kind of cultural at this point.

in a lot of the Western world at least, but, you know, really the vast majority of the world as a whole, unfortunately, there's a lot of pressure, right? So we don't have what we had 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, where we had one parent able to stay home. And one of the biggest impactors for what creates somebody's attachment style is the amount of presence they have. And I don't mean like gifts. I mean like the amount of attunement, the person, the parent being physically present. And, you know, because we have usually both parents working in a household nowadays, a lot of that kind of, you know, even if the parents and caregivers are loving, often children have to go to daycare young.

And, you know, that's not me saying anything towards parents, like usually because of societal pressures, like literally there's no choice. But you can see how that context is sort of being set. The stage is being set to create more anxiously attached children because they don't have as much connection and care coming from their parents in the same way. because it's literally not possible for the vast majority of people. And I think what happens is because of that, what you'll see is anxiously attached individuals.

It's like they really, one of their biggest challenges that they'll have with dating is that they don't properly bet what they want because they get too busy people pleasing. So when I would have clients who would come to me from different attachments, I was back when I was running my practice, I would often have dismissive avoidance they would sit down

and they would be like too picky. you know, as soon as they saw one flaw, they'd run in the other direction in dating. And then we'd have anxiously attached individuals who are not picky enough. They're not like getting clear on what they're looking for, what they really want in a relationship, what their standards are. So rather than properly vetting somebody when they were dating, they would find somebody who's interested in them. As long as I thought that person was moderately attractive and they moderately got along with them, they would then spend that whole first dating stage of the relationship, trying to win the person over through people pleasing, through you know, sort of putting on their best behavior all the time, rather than by being like, is this person actually a good fit for me? And rather than expressing their needs and talking about

their boundaries and seeing if that person was a good fit into their lives as well. And there's a huge impact in dating that way because we're not picking the right potential partners. And also, people statistically are less attracted to people pleasers than they are to people sense of self. And so we may not realize that I think anxious preoccupant individuals kind of think that like, if I'm people pleasing and I'm more agreeable and I say yes to everything, that, oh, then we get along and then everything's easy and then I'll be liked and accepted and I'll win them over. But actually, it usually works against them if they don't have this appropriate set of standards for themselves. They say what's okay with them and what's not okay with them. And if they're not backing themselves,

statistically people are actually less attracted to that overall. That makes a lot of sense. I think it's, it makes sense, but it's also so unfair because if you think about the people who, people please, like often it does come from a very deep like childhood abandonment wound or a guilt wound where, yeah, where you feel like I need to make everybody else happy because otherwise I am unsafe and because otherwise I do not get the connection and the attachment that I crave. So when it comes to these kind of like people pleasing tendencies, you firstly mention that sometimes it results in us choosing partners who might actually in the long term not be right for us, might not actually be a good match.

What does it then look like when we get into the relationship past the first, you know, honeymoon period where everyone's on their best behavior, everyone's trying to win the other person over? when you get deeper into the relationship, assuming this person is actually right for you, what kind of starts to show up in our behavior? Amazing question. These are fantastic questions. So before I dive into that, just for a moment, I want to say one other thing, because you said something really powerful, which is that when, you know, it's sort of unfair,

because when somebody is, like, trying to people please, it's coming from, this deep childhood trauma is actually what it is, like this abandonment wound of feeling afraid of being out on their own and then being unsafe or being disliked or rejected. And when anxious individuals are actually feeling anxiously attached, like when that anxious attachment and they're needing to call or text or maintain proximity, when they're feeling like that, I think something that's understated is that that's actually a trauma response for somebody. That's actually them when you feel that panic in your body and your conscious mind knows better, like don't call them again or give them space or you have to put your phone in the other room and shut it off or, you know, these kinds of things.

and yet you can't help it and eventually do make that phone call again or eventually do reach back out. That's actually a trauma response. And so there is something disheartening about that. And at the same time, I think it's really important to look at the sort of silver lining of it too, which is that exactly what you need to do to be successful in dating is also exactly what you need to do to heal yourself and to feel better and actually heal from those childhood wounds. So with the acknowledgement of that stuff, and I'm sure we can get into all that stuff in a little bit, like what that looks like, but just with the acknowledgement of like this really sucks that I have these wounds and they're painful, at the same time noticing them and acknowledging them and being able to work through them in your dating life will also help you feel so much more secure and confident and at peace within yourself. So it's very healing. So it's like a crisis and an opportunity, if that makes sense. So going back to what you were talking about, basically an anxious attack. style in a relationship has a few core things. So they will tend to, in that dating stage specifically,

start, you know, people pleasing, trying to win the person over. And if anybody who's listening is not familiar, we actually have six stages of a relationship. So we start off with a dating stage, which is actually meant to be the bedding stage. Then we go into the honeymoon stage of a relationship. And that's that like honeymoon period, but the mask is usually still on during that period. after that when people start getting more comfortable they start dropping the mask and that becomes the power struggle stage every relationship has one and the more you are people pleasing and not being yourself in the dating and honeymoon stage the harder the power struggle stage will be um and then after the power struggle stage if we make it through the rights of passage which are really about being vulnerable

and learning to show ourselves and share ourselves with our partners then we get into the stability stage then that's followed by the commitment stage where we start talking about really long-term commitments marriage, children, living together, et cetera. And then we get to the bliss stage, which is like the honeymoon stage, but where you actually deeply know each other. So what happens for a lot of anxious attachments to your earlier point is that we can get into a place where it's like you're so busy trying to win the person over and be on your best behavior that you don't ever share who you really are, what your real needs

are in a relationship. And if you do share them, you share them retroactively. So rather than saying like, hey, I could use some support. Can you do the dishes? It's like, hey, I hold that in. I don't ever ask for the support. And then finally one day I'm like, you never do the dishes. And then, you know, that doesn't land with somebody that we care about because they just feel

criticized because anxiously attached people, even though we think that they're so emotionally available, people pleasing is not an emotionally available thing. People pleasing is I'm hiding, right? I'm not truly being myself. I'm not sharing myself with you out of a fear of rejection. And so that's going to cause me something in the power struggle stage. And so what ends up taking place is as an anxious attachment style, They usually, you know, sort of date.

So they're so good at trying to win people over in the dating and honeymoon stage. And then when the power struggle comes on, they really see a lot of turbulence in their relationships at that point. And what they'll start to see is that they feel really unseen by their partners, unheard, like their needs don't matter. Sometimes they can feel resentful because they're usually like pouring into the relationship with somebody and then feeling like they're not getting their needs met back. Then that can cause them to be slightly critical in their communication,

which then often causes the other person to just shut down. and meet their needs even less than they already are. And then we'll often see anxious, preoccupied attachment styles have a lot of fears come up when they see their partner pull back and then try to sort of maintain that proximity, try to get closer. And often we can get stuck in these like cycles where we keep trying to get closer, the person pulls away, keep trying to get closer, the person pulls away. And it can be really painful for the anxiously attached style, especially in the power struggle

stage of relationships. So in the power struggle stage, what are we like most likely to see? because I have not heard about this before. I knew about, obviously, the honeymoon stage and the bliss stage, but I've never heard about this power struggle moment. So the power struggle stage, statistically is the stage where most people break up in relationships. And it is one of the most challenging stages, but again, I really find it to be. It's like the same thing, right?

It's like a crisis and an opportunity. It's really hard, and it also presents the most opportunity for building really deep roots in a relationship. So in the power struggle, one of the rights of passage to make it out of the power struggle is being vulnerable with our partners, really letting somebody see us, like what our real fears are, what our concerns are for anxious preoccupies. It involves things like, you know, sharing that sometimes they need reassurance or sometimes they need certainty, you know, letting their partner know if you cancel plans. I'm okay with plans canceled sometimes, but try to rebook them or tell me when we're going to meet next or, you know, so them asking for, hey, I can be flexible, but I still need you to see that these are my needs. and these are the things that are important to me. So it really requires a lot of expression vulnerability about their needs, about their fears.

And what that opportunity becomes is when I lower my mask and I start sharing who I am with you without conditions, I now present the opportunity to be loved in a more unconditional way. Because when I'm only sharing who I am with conditions, you can only love me conditionally. That's all I make space for.

And so what's going to end up happening is I'm going to constantly, if I was anxiously attached, feel this sense of like, you don't see me, you don't hear me, you don't really care about me, and it'll feel defeating and saddening. But if instead we can drop the mask, we can share in a healthy way, be more vulnerable, gain that acceptance from our partner and also have our partner do the same thing. That's where we now build real roots in a relationship where we can really deepen love and what it means to be loved. And that sets us up for success in the future stages.

So it's tricky. And we'll generally see the most fighting in the power struggle stage, most bickering arguments, push-pull kind of behaviors, but if we can do it properly, we also see tremendous success coming up on the other side. It's so fascinating to hear you say that because I think I'm applying that to my own relationship, and we were speaking about this before we started recording about how I think I used to be someone who was very anxiously attached, and then I met someone who really challenged me and in the best ways possible and, like, challenged me with healthy love such that the little tendencies that up the defensive mechanisms, like they just didn't work anymore. I used to always have this sense

of like, it was almost like a game, right? I was like, I don't want you to leave me. I don't want you to not reply to my messages, so I'm not going to reply to yours. And he was like, no, we're not playing those games anymore. Why are you feeling so anxious about this? Like, let's have a discussion. And it was so hard. Like, it was actually really difficult. in that stage to force myself to be vulnerable and to be like, I'm experiencing a lot of anxiety right now that you're going to walk away, that you're going to leave me, that small thing where you didn't hug me, when you first walked through the door,

that was a really, it was a really huge alarm bell for me. And it was so, like I said, difficult, but I always think that vulnerability is met with huge, emotional, personal, social, relationship reward because you're showing up as yourself and you're being like, I'm going to do the hard thing here. I'm going to be incredibly open with this person, knowing that they could say the wrong thing, but taking that risk anyways. And I do always think that you come out the other side with a lot, a better understanding at least of who that person is. 100%. And, you know, it's real. Like the fear is real when you have those conversations. Like I can remember the first time I was a

fearful avoidant attachment. I can remember the first time I shared about having a fear in a relationship about, but it was with my now husband. But at the time, we were going through like sort of our own power struggle and I had to open up and share that I had this fear of something sort of similar. Mine was like more about like betrayal. And, and it was funny because it was not really based on anything at the time except my own stories about something. But I remember being so terrified thinking, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm sharing this with somebody and scared of feeling weak or rejected or too vulnerable. But it's like the change when we learn to do that work is so beautiful because, you know, if we're in a relationship with somebody we vet it a little bit and

who's a good fit, people respond way more than I think we imagine because as a child, if you couldn't get your needs met, that's all your programming. You're like, oh, well, then my needs will not be met. So I have to keep people pleasing or I have to keep holding back and not saying anything. And so we assume that onto our partners. We tend to project that onto our present, if that was our experience as children. But as an adult, it's actually very different, right? We can communicate differently. We can share things more. We have emotional literacy. We can talk things out in a different way that we didn't have access to as a child. So we get to heal all of these different underlying programs. And when we communicate our needs, we actually give ourselves

the opportunity to have people show up for us. And I can share from my experience. I'm curious about yours. But for me, one of the most beautiful things I learned is that when I actually shared about my needs and I actually took the courage and the risk of being vulnerable, I actually felt so much more loved by all the people in my life because they really did show up and they weren't perfect. And if they weren't perfect, I could go back and have a conversation again. But like, I couldn't believe how much I actually felt like I could receive love from other people when I did that. And I'm curious to hear if you felt that as well. 100%. And not just in terms of my partner. Like I remember having like this conversation with him where I was like these are my fears and then looking at him afterwards and being like, oh right.

So like this is what the next stage of our love looks like and being like I'm so in love with you right now because you met me here. And it was also something that I started doing with my friends. So I had a lot of anxiety around friendships fizzling out. This preoccupation with this idea that my friends really didn't like me. didn't want to be around me, like, and or I would just experience a lot of loneliness, even when it was unjustified. And I remember there was like this light bulb moment, and it may seem so common sense to people listening to this who are already applying these tactics, but I just like, message my friend and was like, I am just feeling really low right now.

And it's not that I'm feeling like everything in my life is great, but I just really need connection from you and I just really need you to call me and just like give me a bit of reassurance and she did it and she was like yeah let's do something this weekend let's go to the beach and it was this weird thing where you're exactly right as a child you don't know how to ask for that you can't be like hey mom can you stop working late because I've identified that I'm on the way to be being like anxiously attached like you're sometimes non-verbal like that's not a way that you can operate but then as you become an adult it's like wow it's so crazy to realize that especially as someone who maybe was anxious or any of those number of insecure attachment

styles, just speaking your needs a lot of the time means that they will be met. It's so beautiful. And I just love like talking about things like this because it's so powerful, like, you know, having also witnessed that firsthand with so many like friendships, family relationships, like how much we actually allow ourselves to be loved by people we care about so much when we do those things. And it's like such a rewarding experience. And for people who like maybe think of this like what if the person doesn't show up well that might happen but then those people aren't really meant to be in your inner circle anyways you know those people aren't meant to withstand the test of time in your life and it's worth building relationships with people that are it's worth

going through figuring those things out so that you can have people around you who really do show up for you who really do care about you and i think as an anxious attachment so it's good to also practice showing up for ourselves like you know there's that part as well of self-soothing but I cannot stress enough how beautiful it is to practice that vulnerability piece. Absolutely. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to discuss the interactions between the anxious attachment style and the avoidant attachment style.

We will be back with you very shortly. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry.

We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on. on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs?

Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jette. And I'm Alex In. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark, Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing.

And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on Earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You don't I doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct?

I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Gregalespian and Michael Naranini. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something that I have learned recently is that the anxious attachment style is often attracted to the avoidant attachment style. whether that is fearful or dismissive. Why is that? Because that feels so counterintuitive. Surely the anxiously attached person would be most attracted to someone who is secure. But you were telling me that is not often the case. Yeah, it's an amazing question. So here's what happens.

So when we think of our attachment style, I want us to first think of the difference between like conscious and subconscious. So conscious mind, I'm sure everybody's had this experience in some way where they're like, their mind knows better. They're going, I know this is not. the right fit for me or I know I should leave this relationship that's not working or I know that this person's like not the guy I should be dating or not the woman that I should be, you know, and yet we repeat patterns. Well, that's the difference between our conscious and subconscious.

Conscious mind can logically analyze and see things, but our subconscious is the one running the show. The subconscious is actually responsible for 95 to 97% of our beliefs or thoughts, our decisions, our emotions, our actions. So what happens is when we think of our attachment style, I like to get everybody in the habit of thinking of it as like the subconscious set of rules that you have about love. And when we look at tackling the subconscious, one thing that's really valuable to realize is that our subconscious mind's biggest priority is survival. So what this means is that anything that feels familiar feels safe and thus increases the chances that we're going to survive. And that's what the subconscious is seeking the most. So what's funny is that what our subconscious comfort zone is,

that sort of zone that our subconscious keeps wanting to keep us in and stay in, is actually that as an anxiously attached person, the relationship you have to yourself is to constantly dismiss and avoid your own feelings, needs, and desires in favor of pleasing other people, which means your subconscious comfort zone that you're used to operating in all day long is to put your needs last, feelings last, not really care about your own boundaries, not worry too much about you being a priority.

And so that's that zone of familiarity and safety to your subconscious mind. So when we're starting to invest in people or we're dating people, guess what one of the biggest factors is that drives attraction? If somebody represents the subconscious comfort zone and the relationship we have to ourselves, which means that often anxiously attach people, even though they might see somebody be dismissive, not make an effort, pull away, the anxious attachment style often goes, that doesn't feel good or that's not healthy. And yet their subconscious is like, and we love them.

We really are so interested. We, they, you know, they're on our mind 24-7. And so it's because that subconscious comfort zone is a big factor that drives attraction. So that's really why this ends up happening. And obviously both the fearful avoidant attachment style and dismissible avoidant, they both tend to sort of push people away and kind of be a little bit dismissive or avoidant, which really feels familiar and like we have the butterflies that go off, which may actually be more like red flags that are being waved.

But the subconscious mind doesn't know any better. Well, it's that age-old sense, and I say this all the time, sometimes our brains, our bodies, confuse anxiety with excitement and with the spark and with passion, when that is sometimes not true. And just your brain trying to interpret a situation is more positive and is more beneficial. So this is really fascinating to me because obviously what a dismissive avoidant,

fearful avoidant and an anxiously attached person wants out of a relationship is different because what they're looking for in a relationship is different, what they want from the relationship is different. Why is that so destructive for the anxiously attached in particular? Yeah, because exactly what they do. have as their subconscious comfort zone in relationship to self, which is causing them so much pain is exactly what they end up attracting in relationships or being attracted to another. So one of the biggest things is that as anxious preoccupies, if anybody who is AP could sort of take a look,

they would see that as an anxious preoccupied person, anxious preoccupied person, the things that they do to themselves that hurt themselves the most is that they don't speak up for their needs. They put themselves on the back burner. They, you know, pretend like things are okay with them when they're not. You know, I think of like somebody's sitting there and somebody's hurting them and they're like, it's fine. It's not a big deal because they're always prioritizing other people and getting that approval and that connection. But it's always at the expense of self-abandonment, right? So part of what happens is how we keep our subconscious wounds alive from childhood, because we have to ask ourselves the question. Like, if our wounds happened, let's say somebody's in their 20s listening to

this on your podcast. And this happened, their abandonment wounds started when they were five. how are they still here? The past is, you know, 15 years gone, 20 years gone. Well, what's actually happening is that we actually can't keep wounds alive unless we're constantly opening the wound and, you know, sort of peeling off the scab on a regular basis. So the wounds stay alive for an anxious preoccupied person because they keep abandoning themselves first. And so as long as that cycle of self-abandonment, putting themselves last, not sharing their boundaries, not speaking up for their needs as long as they keep that alive in the relationship to themselves, that's still going to be what they're attracted to and others. And then when somebody else does that back to them, it hurts

a hundred times more because there's a wound there that hasn't had the chance to heal. So for somebody secure to experience that, they don't have these preexisting wounds, it's not as big of a deal. Somebody anxious who has these preexisting wounds, when somebody touches it, it hurts so much more. And that's part of where that problem needs to really be solved for at root level. It also sounds like such a cycle, right? Where it's like, if the only love that you've ever come to expect and accept is this kind of blueprint, obviously you're not going to know any different. You have no idea of what love, healthy love, secure love actually feels like. So you're going to just repeat behaviors that put you in the same situation again and

again and again. So how can we actually move past our anxiously attached tendencies? Like a question that I really had for you coming into this was, is our attachment style forever? Is it predictive? Or are there things that we can do about it? Yeah, it's an amazing question and such an important one. So the answer I always give to people is like, first of all, you're not born with an attachment style. It gets conditioned into you. And it's really through repetition and emotion, that sort of key thing we keep talking about. And we can recondition it through repetition plus emotion. So there's a few things that we can do. and as anxious attachment styles, there's a few core things that are really good starting places.

One is you have to learn what your needs are and you have to start advocating for them. Because if you try to advocate for your needs when they don't get met, you advocate for them in a way where you're also less likely to be heard. So if you advocate for your needs, you're like, you never give me certainty. You never spend enough time with me. People just hear criticism and then it's tragic because then somebody gets even less needs met and it becomes this vicious cycle.

So one of the first things and what anxious attachments tend to need the most in their relationships is certainty, consistency, transparency is very important, a sense of safety, reassurance, validation, presence, again, not gifts, but like actual like attunements, somebody giving their ability to be present to the person they love. And a lot of encouragement from their partners. Like those eight things tend to be really top tier needs for anxious attachment styles to feel like they can really feel safe in a relationship. rest, decompress. But we also have to, as anxious attachment style, is part of self-soothing

and not feeling when you feel that sense of panic as an anxious attachment style where you're like, oh my gosh, and that panic's alive in your body and you're having that kind of trauma response. Part of how you learn to self-sooth so that it doesn't always have to be calling again or things like that is to learn to give those needs in the relationship to yourself through repetition and emotion. So if an anxious attachment style learns their needs, knows that those are their top eight needs, starts giving those to themselves repetitively on a daily basis, like validating their wins each day, creating a sense of certainty by asking the right questions, but then also brings those needs into their relationships with others and let them be known,

asks for them, practices that vulnerability. That's a first huge place for anxious attachments to start healing. And a second place that's really profound for anxious attachment styles is sometimes APs tend to get into a space where they'll go into enmeshment and codependency. meaning when they get into a relationship, they will make that person the center of their universe. And it doesn't mean that somebody can't be like this massive, huge, beautiful, amazing person in your life because they absolutely can and they should be. But anxious attachment cells sometimes will start chipping away at the other areas of life. So for example, when they're in a romantic relationship, they'll spend less time focusing on friends, family, their career, their finances, their physical health,

their mental, emotional health. Like, there's so many areas of life that are really valuable. But sometimes anxious preoccupies will kind of, like, put them on the back burner when they get into a relationship. The more that you give yourself away, the more that you stop focusing in a sort of balanced way across those different areas of life, like you put your career goals on hold, you're just prioritizing your relationship, you spend all your budget going out to, you know, buy new clothes and impress the person you're dating or spend money on a fancy dinners.

you know, the more that you give yourself up without like actually considering how those choices are affecting you at your core and not seeing yourself as also a person equal to the other person, the more you will then subconsciously put stress on the relationship because it's like that person becomes your whole world because you're ignoring the other parts of your world. So another really important part of healing for anxious attachment style is to make sure that you're making space and time for the other areas of your life that fill you up. That will actually, help you stay really grounded and centered and present. And then I would say a third thing that tends to be really valuable is I call this just questioning your stories. It's a form of reprogramming.

If we do it repetitively, it's very, very valuable. But as an anxious attachment cell, you know, as somebody who's lived through this, I was fearful avoidance. So I had the anxious side and it sounds like you've lived through this is it's so easy. Like somebody doesn't call you back and where does your mind go? It's like, oh my gosh, they're leaving me. They're not coming back. They're losing interest. you know, and we jump to conclusions based on our own preexisting core wounds. But if we can really sit in that story and we can question it, we can say, okay, they didn't call me back and it means they're leaving me right now. Is that really true? Can I 100% know

that that's true? And we can just take the wind out of the sails of like that, that story that wants to take us a million miles an hour down to like all the worst case scenarios that are going to happen when we can hold those narratives in the light where sometimes we go, they didn't call me back, they got in a car accident, all these bad things are happening. We can really project all these scary scenarios. When we can learn to witness those thoughts and just question them and not jump too far into them, we can also self-soothe in a powerful way. And if we do that repetitively, a lot of those stories stop showing back up because repetition

and emotion is actually reprogramming that from being that comfort zone of what we're used to thinking. So I'd say those are three really, really powerful places to start. I love those tips. And further to the last one as well, just ask. Just be like, how you didn't just ask this. like it's so it's so funny that like it's it seems so like I think for anyone who is like securely attached they'd be like hey why didn't you reply to me like I'm annoyed but for anyone else they'd be like how what do you mean I can say that isn't that just going to drive them away further but it's

like no you can just ask and the other thing that I would actually add to that is sometimes when we I think when we haven't had the love that we think we deserve when love has been like in a deficit we've had a really like the supply has been low right not to use like an economics term but when we feel like love has been in a deficit we see it as like the only thing that we want in life and we are and we put it on such a pedestal and of course love is so important it is like the lifeblood of being a human that is not the only thing about you that is valuable is your capacity to be loved and I also think that love isn't something that only has to come from other people. You can show yourself the love that you expect from others. I always think about this in the sense of like the love languages, right?

We constantly think that we need to receive words of affirmation from someone else, acts of service from someone else, physical touch from someone else in order to fill up those needs, but you can actually perform your love languages for yourself in those moments where you're feeling really anxious or really abandoned or really like trying to catastrophize every small thing. Like give yourself a hug. Speak words of affirmation to yourself. Go and take yourself on a walk and buy yourself like a little treat, a juice, something that's going to make you feel better as a way to show yourself the love

that you're constantly expecting from others and should be expecting from others, but also should equally expect from yourself. I love that. That's so beautiful. and it's so funny because we talk a lot about this too and you just nailed it which is like we we actually give love to ourselves through our love languages but also through our needs and so the things that we feel like we're needing so badly from somebody when we just want them to answer the phone or we just want them to call us back or we just want them to text us more it's often a really valuable exercise to give those love languages absolutely and the big ones for anxious preoccupies are usually

quality time physical touch words of affirmation like those are usually the top tier ones for anxious but then also to be like, well, what is it that I need from them so badly? And when you said that beautiful thing where, you know, often like it represents a deficit, people who feel like love is the center of their universe. And I do agree with you. It's like the lifeblood of being a human being. And if we're yearning for it from other people so, so much, it always means that we don't have enough in the relationship to ourselves.

And so we can, we don't have to just do that when we're anxious. We can do that where we meet our needs or love language is when we're anxious and needing something from others. but also the more we make like active habits and practice out of it on a daily basis. And the more we just show up and create those routines in our lives, we fill our bucket halfway. And part of what's happening for anxious attachment styles is that they're not filling their bucket halfway. So the moment somebody else can't fill their bucket, it's like driving around with your gas tank and you know that you have like two kilometers left, right? It's like you're right down to the brim and so we panic.

But if you can get into the habit to always driving with a half tank full, then if somebody can't, go from, you know, pull in your gas tank and go from half to full, you're still totally fine and it's completely okay. And so, you know, if you're seeing that in your life, being able to give yourself to that proactively and habitually make such a difference and also really helps retrain the subconscious mind to get more secure in the relationship to self. I love that analogy. I absolutely adore that analogy. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental

toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO%. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell to George Bush got to do a little kill. Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84's big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade. of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person

while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast,

Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so much, correct? I doctored the test ones.

It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian, and Michael Naranini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young.

This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for coming on the show and for spreading your wisdom. I feel like I actually learned so much.

Like I'm listening to, I was listening to you being like, that is just making so much sense for me. Everything is checking out. I can apply so much of this to my relationship and my past relationships and the relationships that I've had with my parents and so many other people in my life. So I want to thank you again for finding the time. to come on the podcast and share your wisdom. Where can the listeners find you? Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing all that too. So you can find me at Personal Development School dash Taise Gibson. It's spelled T-H-A-I-S, kind of like Thai with an S at the

end, but just personal development school will show up. And then also, if anybody wants a free attachment style quiz, we have a free quiz that tells you like your attachment style and then it gives you a report on like your wounds, your needs, the ways you can communicate, It gives like some supportive tools all for free at www. www.personaldevelopment school.com. Oh my goodness. I'm going to go and do that now. I feel like I know the answer, but what a good resource.

Also, there are so many attachment quizzes out there that it's like, we can tell you your attachment style in like five questions. And then you have to pay, you have to like submit, like you've got to pay for it. It's like $50 and it like doesn't tell you anything. Yeah, yeah. Ours is free. And I think there's about 30 questions on there to really get into like the nitty

gritty and really get you a clear answer. I'm so excited. I'm actually going to go and do it. I'm going to send it to my friends as well. So again, thank you so much for coming on the show. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. If there is a friend who needs to hear this, maybe you should share them a link. Send it along. Share the love. Maybe they'll learn something.

And make sure that you are following us so you know when new episodes come out. And finally, if you have an episode suggestion, if you want us to talk more about maybe the dismissive avoidant, the fearful avoidant, please reach out to me at That Psychology Podcast on Instagram and have a lovely week. We would be back next week with another episode. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that's really not safe to have. have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the

hard way on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Ellen. Correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian, Michael Mancini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO%. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.