The Psychology of your 20s - 171. Changing careers in your 20s ft. The Career Contessa

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

Our 20s are one of the best times for us to change careers. Perhaps you're feeling burntout, bored, unmotivated, craving something bigger, something with purpose or better hours, a change from the life and job you currently have. In this episode we break down how we can change careers in our 20s, some of the challenges, how to manage the financial insecurity, the signs your old job is not right for you and discovering your true mission and purpose and life (even if it doesn't always revolve around your job and a pay check).  We are joined by the founder and CEO of The Career Contessa, host of the hit podcast and author, Lauren Goodwin who shares her years worth of advice and best tips.  Follow Career Contessa here: @CareerContessa  Listen to the podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0k0EzNNiLnWICq7gQuFQFg?si=3b84c545aea54800  Follow Jemma here: @jemmasbeg Follow The Psychology of your 20s here: @thatpsychologypodcast    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode

as we break down the psychology of our 20s. A bit of a universal truth about this decade is that nothing is set in stone. This is obviously one of the major periods in our life for exploration, for change, and that includes the jobs we work and our career path. I think in the past our careers were very much mapped out for us and restricted. We chose one career path and it kind of followed us through life.

And nowadays we have a lot more freedom and capacity for change. And I think it's really valuable to discuss how we could make that scary transition from one career to another, facing things like financial uncertainty, job insecurity during this decade. and making that decision because either we are unhappy with where we are, or we're just looking for something different, something more fulfilling, more us. Or maybe there's been a factor beyond our control, getting fired, for example, or just being burnt out. I think, honestly, our 20s are the best time for this change, and it might feel really scary

to start from scratch. You might not even know where to begin. But that is where our amazing guest comes in. we thought we might bring on an expert, the founder of Career Contessa, Lauren, to talk us through exactly how we can kind of change careers in our 20s and be sure of our decisions. So Lauren, thank you so much for coming on the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Firstly, can you tell us a bit about yourself and what you do? Yeah, absolutely. And then we'll get to the psychology of it. So my name's Lauren McGoodwin. I'm the founder and CEO of Career Contessa. We're the largest online professional

platform for women in their careers. Anybody can use our site, but we do, you know, mostly tailor our advice and content for women. And because women's careers are different, being a woman in the workplace is different. And really what we do is we help people, you know, get hired, get paid, advance at work, build these fulfilling careers. And the reality and kind of where the psychology piece of this kind of probably comes into is that mindset of like there's no one career for everybody, you know, there's not like linear career paths. One plus one doesn't always. equal to in your careers. And so what I set out to create was this resource that wasn't just a job site, which is what a lot of things are. They're like, get the job and then we're done with you.

I really wanted a career site that could build and grow with people as they navigate different transitions and shifts in their careers. So we do that at Career Contessa. We have a podcast called Career Contessa. I have a book called Power Moves. You know, we have all the things so that people can can continue to thrive in their workplace. I honestly love that. I wish I'd had a resource like that when I first, like, finished university because my, the only thing I really had access to was, like, seek and, like, that was it. Like, yeah. Seek and, like, the job page of, like, my university website.

So that is, like, super, super amazing. And I think such a great resource. I also love what you said where by one plus one doesn't always equal to when it comes to our careers. Yeah. It's very frustrating. Oh, yeah. But also it's super, it's really frustrating.

but it's also kind of freeing because sometimes you can equal four or like five. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Can I mean? Like, I'm thinking about my own kind of path through my 20s and like the little career dips and turns that I took. And like I started this decade working hospital. Then I worked as like in a call center. Then I worked as like an interviewer for the government. Then I was working as a consultant.

Like now I'm here. I feel like if that's what the first five years of my 20s has had for me, the last five months have. even more. So anyhow. Yes, absolutely. I like your optimistic view on all things. So far, this is great. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. And I feel, yeah, I feel like it's better to just approach things with this air of like, surely this is, this is all going to turn out okay. It leads to a lot of, one of my favorite quotes is, it's this or something better. And it's like, you know, what, because what is, what's the alternative? You're going to be like, it was this or my life was over. Like, you know, you don't want that either. So it's this or something better.

It's kind of been my new motto I love. Yeah, absolutely. We're going to talk about that more on a personal level later. But one of my first questions for you is, what are some of the common reasons why individuals, people like us in our 20s might consider changing careers? I mean, it happens for a whole variety of reasons. It can be that you kind of fell into a career. So maybe you found a job through your career center and it wasn't something you really wanted,

but it was better than nothing. and so you kind of were doing it and all of a sudden you're like, I don't want to do this the rest of my life. For example, my very first job out of college, mind you, I graduated during a recession, wasn't great. I was an admin assistant for a university. I didn't want to do that forever. I knew I didn't and I just sort of needed the time to, you know, obviously bills don't pay themselves. So you sometimes will take a bridge job while you are working toward wherever you want to go next. Sometimes it can be that, okay, I've started working and I have a huge interest in this other thing.

and I really want to maybe keep doing my job function, but in a different industry. And then you have the flip side where it's like, I want to stay in the same industry, but do something totally different. I had a really good friend. We worked on the recruiting team together at Hulu, and she made, in her 20s,

she transitioned from the recruiting team to the marketing team. Now she has a much bigger career in marketing. It was that transition that sort of was the first stepping stone. So I think this happens a lot. I also think in your 20s, you don't know what you don't know. And so one of the beautiful things about working and just taking something, getting out there, is that you start to get introduced to new things. And you start to follow your curiosity.

And so there's so many reasons why people might consider a career pivot, whether it's, I just want to do something different or I want, you know, more salary potential, someone who maybe decided they wanted to be a teacher. And they're like, you know what, I love this career, but I can't live off of this salary. So what can I do? So like people, you know, everyone has their personal reason. it, you know, it can be, I want to work remote. Okay, so what careers are going to allow you to do that forever?

So I think it all comes down to sort of people having a little bit more clarity about what they really want or something that really matters a lot to them. And it's like you can't always figure those things out thinking about them. You know, clarity comes from engagement, not thought. It's not my quote. That's Marie Forleo's, but I love it because you can't just sit there and think really hard and hope that the answer comes. you do have to get out there and start doing. And I feel like it's such an exercise of like value realignment. Because as we go through our 20s, the values that we held when we first maybe entered

the workplace and were making career-related decisions at like 16 and 17, like whilst we were still in high school, those values change. Maybe when you were 18 years old, you really valued money. And you really valued this idea of, I'm going to build all this wealth in my, in my 20s so that I can relax for the rest of my life and you get halfway through that and you realize this is incredibly unfulfilling and like not a life that I want to leave like I think there are so many factors that come down to finding something that aligns to who you are as you change and as your values change as well the other big one for me I think about this a lot I think our jobs are one of the

biggest time consumers in our lives, probably second only to sleep. And so not being happy with what you do for a living, with what you do every day for eight hours can suck a lot of life out of everything else you do. I think it can be an incredible source of stress and tension. I used to do when I was doing, like working in a call center, I would do mental health reviews and interviews for the government. And it was just eight hours of asking people about the worst and hardest points in their life, day in and day out. And it made me so miserable. And I didn't want to go to work. I would call in sick all the time. What do you think of some of the signs that we actually really do need to contemplate a change? It's not because we want to

do something that's more in line with our values. It's because, no, we seriously need to we seriously need to make a shift here. Yeah, I feel like your body usually tells you whether you want to listen or not, right? So I had this person I interviewed once and she said, your body will give you clues and the clues get louder when you don't pay attention to them. So, you know, a toxic workplace can impact you in a whole variety of ways. But if you kind of keep going up the scale, eventually, it's like, you know, people can experience like autoimmune disorders. And they're like, where did I get this? and you're like, oh, well, you've been extremely stressed for the last two years and like, okay, your body is responding to that.

You know, I think there's a lot of like little signs of people always want to know, like, is it me? Is it the job? You know, one of the things I do think is important to think about is like you take yourself wherever you go. So the first thing I would do of like if you're recognizing that is like do some, some of your own works, you know, work with a therapist, do some journaling exercises. Like some of these things that we talk about actually do work, you know, having

moments of mindfulness, disconnecting, like don't doom scroll. You know, start with some of those things because those are the things you can control. Maybe also the other thing I find for people is like sometimes they can't quite identify what it is that about work, you know, yours was obviously very obvious. Sometimes you're lucky and it is really obvious. And other times it's like you're being gaslighted by a boss who you don't quite understand that behavior. So education can help a lot with that too.

It's sort of educating yourself about toxic workplaces, manipulative. live bosses, you know, and start to kind of recognize those things because sometimes there's things that you can control, but we can't always control other people's actions. The other thing about boundaries I always think about is like when you think of a boundary, you're like no emails after 5 p.m. and you're almost like you're expecting your boss to not do that. But really the boundary is something that you set more for yourself, almost like a limit you're setting for yourself. So it's like, no, I'm not going to respond to emails after 5 p.m. I can't control that they send the emails after 5 p.m. But that's what I'm

going to do. So those are all kind of little tips, I would say, things to start with. If you're doing all those things and or you just know, this is not what I want to do. I'm so unhappy. I'm miserable. Look, I'm not, I'm not a person who would just naturally say like, just quit your job and find something else. I would be a person who says, because, and look, not everyone has that privilege. I was in a job that I absolutely hated. I cried in the bathroom. I got asked one day to feed paper through a printer. And I was like, they have to be kidding. This is like literally what this machine does. Like what do you mean I have to put paper one by one into the printer? I was so miserable. And the thing that helped me get clarity

and I think was like more of a positive outlet than just quitting my job was I started having informational interviews with people. I started reading books and listening to podcasts. I found another friend who was also a job searching and we connected once a week and we were setting many goals and, you know, having informational interviews. That job was never going to be the job for me. And looking back, there were so many parts about it that didn't align with my values and why I didn't love it. But I wasn't going to change that workplace. So instead I was like, what are some of the things I can control? Because I didn't have the ability to quit my job and focus on those things full time. But what I found is I was on cloud nine just by engaging in some of these things that

made me feel like there was hope that I wasn't going to be working in this job forever that I hated. So that's at least been my experience. Now, if you have the ability to, like, you've got some savings or you have, you know, some side skill that you can monetize and do some freelancing or side hustle or whatnot and you are able to quit your job, then maybe you quit your job because you're like, it's actually doing more harm for me to show up and keep doing this than it is for me to quit and, you know, make other sacrifices and other places. So there's a great book called Essentialism. and it's all about focus. And one of the things he talks about is like life is full of tradeoffs.

And I think that's really important because not everything can be a priority. Not everything can be your number one. So what are you willing to trade off? You know, are you willing to trade off, you know, the salary of this job that you hate to, you know, take a couple bridge jobs and look for a new job on the side, you know? Or are you able to say like, hey, I can stay here and kind of like decompartmentalize. like this job is not for me. I won't be here forever. And here are all the things I'm doing to take action to get myself out of here. So those are just some of the things that come to mind when I think

of like when people are trying to decide, should I stay or should I go? It really depends on your situation. You know, you have to know what your financial runway is. You have to know. And those are very empowering things too. You should know like, well, okay, don't have three months of, you know, the average job search right now is taking about five months, maybe even a little bit longer because it's a very tough job market out there. So for example, if you still have a job, you might say, I'm not going to quit because it's tough. So you have to take into account your own situation and some realities of what's happening and then make a strategy based on that. The goodness about the strategies, you can tweak it. You can refine it as you're going along. And like I said, I think a huge piece

of this is also finding some community. Find a friend who's also job searching. Find a community of people who are focused on this stuff because it will make you feel less alone. And it's one of the most important things when you are thinking about making a transition is talking to people who have been there and done that or going through it with you because they can relate. Yeah, absolutely. I think community is such an antidote to so many things. And you made such a good point. Like, I think obviously this is a podcast about psychology. And I think prioritizing your mental health is number one really like if the job is seriously causing you to feel mentally unwell I think it's hard to not be like well you should just quit and you should just like get out of

there because it's going to cost you a lot more and just like mental energy emotional energy time to recover from that emotional experience and I think obviously our mental health is like the most valuable resource that we have other than maybe like physical health. But it's also, like you said, it's really important to be realistic and to give yourself hope whilst you're still in that situation. Right. Like I think hope is such like a psychologically powerful emotion. I don't think I'm the first person to figure that out. But like it is it is so so powerful to keep you optimistic, to keep, you know, your spirits high, to. To keep. You know, your spirits high. to keep you motivated even whilst your environment and the job you're currently working is perhaps

really terrible and you're miserable and it's awful. The other thing that I wanted to say to that is I had someone on the show who said sometimes we change our external environment because there's something internally that we want to change. So it's an interesting thing when we talk about changing careers in our 20s because obviously in one hand I'm like yes absolutely take the risk to anything you can to try out a new version of you that you think you might be happier in. But I sometimes see cases whereby people continuously change their careers because they're using their careers as a proxy for something else that's wrong in their life. Totally. It's easier sometimes to change your career than to do deep internal work, right?

And also, I think it feels like a tangible thing sometimes, like your job title, your company, your boss, like the external environment feels very tangible. What I have found about psychology and internal work is like, that feels sometimes a little elusive, you know, like you can't quite hold that feeling in your hand even though you feel it, you know? It's like why psychologists will be like, name the emotion. You're like, I can't. And you're like, okay, well, step one, we've got to put some words to this sometimes, you know.

So I would agree with that. Absolutely. I think that's why I say you take yourself wherever you go. So if you don't do that work, you take, and I won't say baggage, but you take that to the next place. And you kind of collect these experiences and keep thinking, why aren't they changing? And you're like, but you only have control of yourself too. So it is, it is like the guest who said that. I completely understand.

And I think I see this a lot in job hopping where people will job hop and they'll say, well, I'm doing it because I want to get a higher salary and you're if you like peel back all the layers they're actually doing it because they like are afraid like they have massive imposter syndrome and they're afraid that the current company is going to realize they're not actually worth what they paid for them or like whatever like a thing like that and you're like oh okay well this is actually not about job hopping for like salary and career advancement this is this is a different thing altogether so I absolutely do see that as well. The other factor here that I was thinking about as well is burnout. Like if you were, if you were mentally so burnt out that you can't function at your job, I understand if,

I understand in some cases like if you're working as a nurse and working crazy hours and then you transition to like an admin job. Perhaps that would be better. But if you are burnt out, it does not just take like a career change to solve that. Nor does it take like quitting a job for it to go away. Like that burnout is like a deep emotional and physical state that needs to be addressed at a more holistic level. You might feel momentarily refreshed by changing careers or changing, more so in this area like changing jobs.

But it's going to come back really, really quickly if you don't establish like proper boundaries. And I think that's like another huge thing that maybe before you choose to change careers. is, you see what else is available to you in the current career and see whether there is room for you to be promoted, whether there is room for you to grow, whether there is room for you to upskill in some way, or whether there is room for you to just take like a long holiday, like a long paid vacation, which I know I'm saying this from a point of like, I'm in Australia and that is

we have long term paid leave. So I don't know if you guys have that. No, the US is like, I'm having heart surgery, I'll be delayed responding to your email. You know, our view on work is very unhealthy over here. But one thing I was going to say about your comment about burnout, this is what I have found. You can be working crazy long hours, but be really motivated and energized by what you're working on and you're not burnt out. I actually don't think burnout is always correlated to number of hours and whatnot. I think burnout is actually more correlated to the impact and the purpose.

So, for example, if you understand the impact that your work has on the company, the team, the product, the customers, whatever, I think that's much more energizing and keeps you from burning out because you understand your bigger impact. When I do this thing, here's how it adds to the bigger picture. When you are working crazy and you're just doing a ton of busy work and you feel like this work doesn't matter. Nobody cares about this work. Guess what? That is going to lead to burnout very. quickly. It's a one-way ticket to burnout in the sense of like sometimes I think it's more about the impact that your work is making because us as humans, part of our well-being is that purpose piece. It's wanting to make an impact. It's why, you know, trust fund babies who can sit on a beach all day long don't. You know, they don't, it's like it's not there's a piece of your well-being that wants to contribute and make an impact and be working on something that matters to you. And I think that, especially when you're younger in your career, look, you're not going to be given, like, some major big project or this, like, you're going to be asked to do some ground work. But, like, a way that you can rephrase this, like, I remember I got this advice early on that I really liked.

And it was, it was swallow the frog. And it's kind of like one of those greatest hacks. And I think it's helpful to learn it early on in your career is observe your boss, you know, figure out what they hate doing. and then learn how to do it and take it off their plate. Like, can you, you know, my point being is like sometimes early on in your career, nobody's going to come to you and say, do this thing, it will make a big impact in my day and therefore in your career. But you can, you know, job titles are just to start, you know, thinking about,

thinking outside the box of your job description, your job title, and thinking about, okay, what, what thing does my boss hate, but it matters to them? Could I learn it and take it off their plate? and therefore instead of doing these tasks that I feel like are busy work, I'm doing something that's truly helping and making a difference there. And that's just an example of like sometimes when you're younger in your career or earlier on in your career, there are some limitations, right? You're not going to be able to like take over that client or something like that.

But maybe you can do something to help support that. So I say that because, you know, I'm not trying to say, oh, your job description doesn't matter and you should take on all this extra work. I don't mean it like that, but it's like, where can you not just be the indispensable person at work where you work really hard and, you know, you're doing all the things? How can you be the invaluable person at work? What, what things really matter on this team? And I think that will help, one, grow your career, give you some more insights into like, you know, what lessons and tools and skills are you learning the add value, but also kind of combating that burnout piece as well. So I think that's one of the

things I find just especially early on in your career is like you can't look at it as as black and white as it is even though it feels that way. And that's what I was meaning about like one plus one doesn't always equal to. And you're right. It could equal four. But I think oftentimes people are just fresh because one plus one isn't even equaling to for them when it comes like they're like, they're like, I got the job title and I got this saying, why am I not fulfilled? Like I thought the key to, you know, career success and career fulfillment was as simple as like finding the right job at the right company and I worked really hard to get that way. And that probably goes back to a bigger picture. But this is also why I get frustrated with the terminology like dream job.

Do not talk to me about this. I hate that term. I literally did a whole episode of like the myth of the dream job. I was like, there is no dream job. Don't let them tell you that. Yeah, there is no job. And what it is, it's like this pumped up lifestyle version. And that's, that's a problem because also similar to a partner who is not going to check every box of your life. A job in a career is also not going

to do that. So we were talking about not dealing with your internal stuff. Some people are looking for that. They're looking for this job that will like check all these boxes. And then they're so disappointed when they get there and they're like, it's not what I thought it was going to be. And it's like, but maybe we need to peel this back and realize that your expectations of what you think a job, should be and what it owes you and whatever is unrealistic. And so you're on this constant cycle of, yes, the myth is what's keeping you stuck and unfulfilled more than any, more than any job or boss or anything like that is. Yeah, I totally agree.

And I have a friend who talks about this a lot. And she is someone who just like, she, she hates the idea of a dream job for the reason that her purpose is never going to lie in what she's getting paid to do. Like this is just something, like the thing that she loves the most in the world is not something she will ever get paid to do. And so it's, it's just really interesting to hear from her and her being like, I don't care where I work. I still have purpose.

I'm not going to, I'm not looking for my job to fulfill me 100%. Like that is not my job's job. What I mean? Like, that's not what I'm doing this for. I'm doing this for a paycheck. And the other thing that I'm, I absolutely love how you referred to relationships as well, there's the 90-10 rule which says that a lot of the time

people throw away a relationship that is 90% fulfilling because they are missing their 10% and then they find someone who is the 10% and that doesn't last because they're like actually this is just like all the things I may have wanted but it sucks and I find that in careers as well

and as someone who is I'm about to completely like double cross myself be a hypocrite as someone who is working their dream job like basically at this point, like this is the best job I could ever hope for, there are still times when it really sucks. And I think about going back, if I think about like going back to do hospital

or just something or something else because it's not secure. It's, there's just so many other factors that you give up, right? It's the trade-off as well. I feel like we're just talking, we're talking through so many hypotheticals here. I want to ask you like a very pointed question now. What do you have, what kind of advice do you have

someone who wants to change careers but is concerned about starting over financially. And you said it's taking five months. I don't have five months of savings. How do we probably prepare for that change? Yeah. Well, I think a couple of things. One, always be job searching in a way where, and what I mean by that is you should always be thinking about your personal and professional brand, upskilling, networking.

Networking is not just with people you know. It can also be networking within your company, building relationships with people at work. Also networking, especially if you do want to make a career transition, when I often tell people as like, well, the people in your current network probably aren't going to be able to help you get to this new place because they're part of your old place. So you need to find what I call bridge connections, you know. So if you are, and here's the thing, you're not necessarily starting over, but would you be removing a like the security of a paycheck if you were to say,

I'm going to quit my job and then find a new job or probably more more likely scenario is I was laid off and now I need to find a new job, right? So because most people I think in this job market if they want to switch jobs, they're probably going to keep their current job while they're searching. So let's just go with like you were laid off, you were fired or you don't have a job right now and you want to find something new. There is no, no harm in taking a quote, bridge job to create some income for yourself and have that as a tradeoff. while you are job searching. Nothing about taking, you know, the grocery store job or the job at the target means that you're there forever, right? Like your one move does not dictate the rest of your life. And also I would say like for someone who was a recruiter, I would actually be very impressed to be like, okay, you haven't had it. You've been job searching for four months. What have you been

doing with your time? You're going to get asked a question like that. And so by being able to say like, you know, I walked dogs for the neighborhood. I took on babysitting. I did some freelancing of this and that. That shows me that you have drive and you take initiative and that you're hungry for something new. So, you know, being open about I'm making a career change, I'm doing something different, I think is like, and then connecting it to all the cool things that you're doing to get there. I think it's great. The other thing if you wanted to make a career transition right now or you, you were job searching. I think one of the best things you can do is go have informational interviews with people who are doing the job at ideally the company you want to work

at. So can you learn from these informational interviews what the job is like there? Maybe what skills gaps that you have. Who do they hire? Why do they hire them? What do they look for to hire? What did they like about the culture? One of the things when I was working as an admin assistant hated my job and I really wanted to become a recruiter, I started having informational interviews with recruiters. Now, none of those informational interviews led me to a referral for a job. But what they did do is when I did get my job interview at Hulu for recruiting, I was able to tell them, I know I don't have prior, quote, quiet, you know, recruited. I don't have, quote, prior recruiting experience.

But what I do have is I've had 30 informational interviews with recruiters and I've learned this and this and this about recruiting. And here's how my experience, my transferable skills actually are a really good fit. So for example, in recruiting, you guys care a lot about candidate experience and I know this part's really important. I don't have candidates, but I work with students. Students are my candidates. And so I'm speaking the same language that they might be doing in an interview.

And for the person on the other end, and I know this for a fact, I got the job at Hulu, obviously not because I was the most experienced, but definitely because I wanted the job the most. And I was, you know, going above and beyond. So do not let your prior experience or education or anything like that stop you. from the thing that you want to do. Part of it is creating a game plan of how are we going to connect the dots from where you are right now to where you're going to go next. And like I said, bridge jobs are totally appropriate, but we still want to be able to

have this informational interviews, you know, listen to podcasts, watch online courses about, you know, you want to be a community manager. What do they do? And then see if you can start to, you know, tailor your resume and tailor your LinkedIn profile and tailor your networking experience or what you talk about, the story that you tell people about yourself and your experience so that it's going to be very relevant to them. I have this quote that I heard someone say that I love, which is show the 10% of you that is 100% relevant to them. You know, they don't need to know your whole life story. They need to know like what part of you

is going to be really important for them to know. If you're transitioning careers, it's not I quit my job where I got laid off. The point is I'm really excited about online marketing and here's what I've been doing to connect the dots between what I was doing before and why I want to get into and start in online marketing. That enthusiasm factor is massive. It is so massive because we were just talking about it. Sometimes people who have who have slided into this career and maybe burns out and stuck and not going to bring that same level of freshness and newness. that people like so desperately want. Yeah, it's like you can teach skills.

You can't teach attitude. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. And you can't like breathe new life into someone. Like you know what I mean? Like you kind of have to cut. Yeah, I just think that's such a, it's actually such an asset.

Probably one of the reasons you got hired at Hulu as well. But you just said it's because you wanted it the most. And they knew that you were going to bring that into that job. Another thing that, um, one of my friends recently had an experience like that. And she has since. a much better job in a much different field and it's like a huge success story of what we're talking about and some of the things she did in the in the meantime was she taught herself a new skill

she taught herself how to be really really good at excel which is super random I think if you've ever worked a corporate job you know how valuable excel is like I still know how to do all my functions from when I was a consultant like it's so valuable another one is like audio editing or um learning how to do design work. She taught herself a new skill and she also made her own project for her while she was job hunting. I always think about

what's that man's name? That famous man, Matt Damon. I always think about Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and how they weren't getting hired for jobs and they weren't getting like acting gigs and so they just were like, fuck it, I'm going to write my own script. And sometimes you need to do that.

Obviously it's not maybe won't make you into a quadruple millionaire that they are now. But just being like, oh, whilst I was, you know, unemployed, I, like, started my own business, like, doing reorganising, or I started my own business, like, selling online content, like, or help as, like, a social media manager, like, small things like that, that show, once again, that you have initiative, but also give you a new skill for you to bring into this new career. I think it's a misconception that to change careers, you suddenly, you need to go back to school or you need to get a whole new degree. Can you talk about that a bit? I think that's like a huge one

that I come across a lot. Yeah, I think that's why the informational interviews are so valuable because you can ask them, you know, would you hire someone who can, you know, has learned these skills via online learning and on the job and through real experience or do you prefer to see additional education and they'll probably tell you real life learning of the skills is more valuable to me than however many degrees you have now it always depends on what it is that you're doing if you want to be a doctor we need you to go through med school you know but i think it's i would not drop kick to paying for you know additional education before i've exhausted all of my free options and the ability to like for myself to test out and experiment and build things and um i would

I would start there first 100 times over. It's really interesting because I actually, when you say like lived experience is better, I have a politics degree and I have a philosophy degree. Oh, and an economics degree. Do I use those? No, no. So like if someone, if I was to walk into like a position for an economist

and be like, oh yeah, I have a degree, but I've never done anything like this ever before, I really could probably only apply my knowledge from Munich. and that was years ago. Yeah. They're not going to hire me. I mean, experience is always going to speak much louder than degrees and words. You know, I think, you know, for a lot of people, having the college degree is like kind of

that first step. But even now, today, like, I mean, my kids are really young. But if my kids get ready to go to college, I'm probably going to ask them, well, what are you studying? Is there? Because you might not even need to go to university at some point, you know? You might be able to learn everything via on the job learning and through, I mean, you can literally pretty much learn anything via YouTube videos if you really wanted to or TikTok videos at

this point, you know? So I absolutely, especially for the advanced degree thing, I'm always hesitant to ever give the advice of like, yeah, go and pay for this thing. Now, some people are like, I need the accountability. I need to be able to show up in person. You're talking about something a little different. You could hire a career coach to help you and work with you. That would be a lot cheaper than going through an academic program. Oh, absolutely. Especially I find this a lot with my friends who are like, they've reached kind of like a plateau at like 25, 26. And a lot of them are like, I'm going to go do my masters. Because in Australia, like the government pays like, yeah, it's a lot easier to do it. The government pays your loan for you. And it's just like, it's just like almost like

a limbo point. It's like taking a bridge job. You know, you're, you're like bridging between wherever you're going to go next and you're going to buy time. And I will say there are plenty of people in the U.S. that they just pay for it, which is not the best idea. But where they enroll in a master's program, they're like, I'm not totally sure what I want to do. And I'm kind of buy some time doing something productive. And so many of us, when you're in your 20s, the thing you know more than work is school. You know, you've been a student way longer than you've been a worker. Yeah. And especially when you're sold this very traditional path of like, more education equals more opportunities. Like, I don't necessarily think that's the case anymore, actually.

and I think also I've been reading lots of articles about people being like actually like you said with your kids like it's a waste of money it's a waste of money for what I want to get into turning back to someone who is at that turning point at that crossroads

ready to change totally ready to find a new job ready to try whatever it takes to shift to this new path what are some of the key challenges you think they might encounter and how can they be prepared for them so that when they happen, they're not terrifying and cause them to retreat.

2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress.

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and purpose on my new podcast. Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in someone's, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for.

Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Alesspian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to a love trapped podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What are some of the key challenges you think they might encounter? And how can they be prepared for them so that when they happen, they're not terrifying and cause them to retreat? Yeah. I mean, I will just say rejection is part of the process, right? So you're going to apply for jobs and not get them. You're going to have interviews that don't go well. You know, I,

you're going to have informational interviews where you reach out and the person never gets back to you, you never get to have it. So, you know, part of this is trying to figure out what parts of this process can I control and what parts do I not have control over and also, um, not giving up because you had one bad moment. Like I, I joke that like if your resume got rejected, let's say they're spending it seven seconds on average looking at your resume. That's if they even did look at your resume. Like that can't be taken as a personal rejection and okay, you should give up because what does that person know, right? They spent seven seconds looking over something. But there are some tips that you can do that give you a better chance. Like for example, creating a really

great master resume and then tailoring that resume for each job that you apply for. That is something that is totally in your control. People always ask, how do I tailor it? You're going to tailor it based on what the job description and the company are looking for. So you're able to take your experience and how can you, again, take those transferable skills and make them work for what that company needs now? Can you, when you apply for a job, go back to that informational interview that you had at that job and say, I recently applied for this job, would you be able to refer me? Can I send my resume to you and you send it to a hiring manager?

That's within your control. You're able to send, you know, prep really well before an interview by researching the company, researching who you're going to interview with, sending a thank you note after. Those are things that you can control. You can have a practice interview with your best friend, your mom, your career coach, whoever. Those are things that you can control. I think that focusing on what you can control versus, you know, letting one thing kind of fall

out of place and then it kind of takes everything down for you. It's not, it's like an overall lesson in life. It's like that's not going to go very well because stuff happens and you have to to be able to adapt and go with plan B. The other thing I always tell people, I'm like, there's no one right way to job search. So like apply to jobs online, you know, cold apply to jobs online. Also ask your network, you know, create sample projects of like if the job you're applying to is a social media manager, create a fake social media account for them or show real graphics of the content you would create if you were to get hired there. Like you have the

ability to put your best foot forward and control those things. Now, there are so many reasons why people do and do not get jobs and we can't always control those. And, you know, it's humans making decisions about other humans. So that's why I say that. And one of the worst things that can happen in a job search and I see it happen all the time is like people don't start getting traction. So then they start to like really kind of lose faith and hope in their own abilities. And it's kind of like this insecurity and negativity. You know, imposter syndrome. versus a growth mindset sometimes is a slippery slope. You know, the growth mindset is the person who says, I'm going to get there and I trust in

my ability to learn and adapt and keep going and be resilient. And the imposter syndrome person is, well, you're not getting jobs because, you know, you're not that good about, you don't really know what you're doing anyways. Like, this is a long shot anyways. And so being able to manage those thoughts is also really important and a huge life skill. So that's why I've always been a big fan of like, find another friend who is job searching with you. So you can share this stuff so that they can be your hype woman when you need to and vice versa. I think all of that is really important.

And job searches, there's a lot of moving parts that happen with it. So yeah. And then the other thing is do not forget about the power of LinkedIn, having an optimized profile, networking with people on LinkedIn, leaving engaged comments. I just did an entire podcast episode about the power of LinkedIn comments. and that's something you have control over, you know. So I like to shift people back to the things that you can control versus the things you can't control. The other thing I would say is if you're in that part is think about the companies that you want to apply for. So sometimes it's a little scary to be like, I'm just going to apply to any job that comes at me that I'm interested. Yeah. And so one of the things I've always been a fan of, and I'm not saying this is the only way, but sometimes I feel like it can narrow it down a little bit for you if you're feeling overwhelmed by saying,

let's just focus on what are your target companies. Why are they your target companies? Do you only want to work for remote companies? Do you only want to work for companies whose products you're obsessed with? You know, do you only want to work for companies that are on the best companies to work for lists? You know, that kind of thing. Like, look, no one's like double checking your work. So it can be for any reason. It can be that they have a bigger, longer vacation policy. I don't really care. My point being is like get some clarity over why this company interests you and can you dive a little deeper to learn about it and, you know, learn about the company, listen to the podcasts with their leaders, see if they have earning calls that you can check in with. Do they have events that you can go to or online events? Can you follow them on social media?

You know, all of those things add up also. Yeah. I totally agree. It's about I think it's just like having an exploratory mindset. and one that's like one of abundance and being like, I'm going to get this job and I'm going to show them that I want this job and I'm going to keep all my doors open. Can I, I'm going to finish up by asking you one more question.

Maybe two, maybe two. What advice would you give for someone who's taking a less conventional career path who wants to do something that's like not necessarily a job that you can apply for through LinkedIn or through seek. I'm thinking people normally like in creative jobs. Photographers, people who want to start their own businesses, podcasters, that kind of thing. Yeah, I think for anybody who's starting something that maybe isn't like a job that you

apply to online is like just get started. You know, my very first podcast episode is not as good as the podcast episode I have today, but thank goodness I started and I started practicing, you know, and I just got out there. I recently started creating content on LinkedIn, and I was like, oh my God, my first, like, five posts are not that good. I didn't understand, like, the best way to, like, write your content and format it on LinkedIn. And guess what?

I keep doing it every day, not because I love having one more thing to do, but because I want to get better at it. So if you are, you know, building your own brand or your own business, something to think about is, like, just get started. And then by starting, you will start to iron out. some of the wrinkles. Connect with other people who are doing the stuff that you want to do because they will be your best teachers and advocates and people you can go to. The other thing, I guess, is probably on the financial standpoint is like, how are you going to make money? You know,

like if you're going to be a photographer, like how are you planning on charging people? What are your packages? Like laying stuff out versus being a little loosey-goosey. I think people like to have options, not too many options, you know, and then also make. making it easy for them to make those decisions. And personal branding slash, you know, marketing, I guess is a big piece of all of that. You know, if you're going to be a podcaster, how are you going to get people to listen to your show? You know, are you just going to build it and then hope that they come? They probably won't, you know, so are you going to also start sharing it on LinkedIn? Are you going to start an Instagram channel on TikTok? Are you going to

recycle the content? So, you know, as a content creator today, I don't, I didn't go to school to become a content creator, but I learned by doing and watching other people, reading their blog posts, you know, and just iterating along the way too. I think if you're doing a less traditional career path, it's something more creative. It just requires you to not just do that thing. You also probably are going to have to be like, for example, you're a podcast or you own a business. You understand you don't just get to podcast. Some days, you also have to think about like taxes and payroll or, you know, that kind of stuff. So just something to think about is that, you know, running a business is a whole other set of skills besides just that. I think a lot of people start running a business because

they're like, I really love photography. Well, there are probably other career paths that you can do that include photography and it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to start your own business. I think I'm also sensitive to this because I think for a while, at least my generation, the millennial women generation, I think we were constantly told if work isn't working for you, just become your own boss, become a quote, girl boss. And I don't think that's the answer for everybody either. So I think that for some people, entrepreneurship is a, is a great path. And for some people, it's like, I'm very creative and I like to create, but I really want the security. And no job is providing you 100% security, but like I want to do it on a larger scale for a bigger company. You know,

I want to go work for Canva where I'm helping do design work or something like that. So just something to think about is like also who are you as a person. Entrepreneurship comes with high highs, low lows, uncertainty. It's not that a corporate career doesn't come with that. It comes with its own slew of things. You know, the grass is not greener anywhere. And I had this woman on the podcast who was like, the grass is green wherever you water it. And it's like, yeah. So where do you want to invest your time and energy? You know, because wherever you are, you're going to be watering the grass. You have to. And you know what? I will say this about working for yourself, being an on you're starting your own business, whatever it is.

You have to love what you're doing 150%, maybe even 200%, because when you start doing it for yourself, you're going to love it a lot less because you will suddenly have to deal with a lot of things that you didn't want to deal with. The one for me is like, obviously it's just like admin and taxes and talking to my lawyer and like things like that. And then it's also like receiving negative comments and doing social media. I did not start a podcast thinking that I would have to do social media as much as I did as I do. It's like such a hassle.

And like I didn't go to school for that either. So I think it is about exactly the perfect place to end is exactly as you said, the grass is greenest, where you water it. And I honestly think that you can be watering two lawns at once waiting to shift over to that second lawn over there and let the other one die off. but it's like all about being realistic about like what you can achieve and in what time frame that's my I'm going to say that as a final piece of advice like you don't have to have it all sort it out in the next six months there's always this sense of like huge massive urgency in our 20s to get everything instantly sometimes it's going to take a little bit longer but it's still going to be worth it in the end look at that's a beautiful place to end I want to say thank you so

much Lauren for coming on honestly I was taking notes I think you could see of like your advice being like, oh, yep, I'm going to take that, going to pass that on. Like, it is genuinely so, so useful, so practical. If you want to hear more from Lauren, you should go and follow the Career Contessa podcast with Dear Media. I've actually listened to a few episodes, and you know what? I love when shows actually give you practical things to do. Yeah, that's pretty much what we do all the time.

You know, career advice delivered an actual bite size, like, do this, do this. I found that, again, career advice can sometimes be a little abstract and people like tangible. They need that in order to move forward. So that's what we do. Yeah, it's really, really useful if you're thinking about changing careers. Again, I will leave all of Lauren's links and career contessa links in the description of this episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed it, please feel free to share with someone else who might get something out of this episode and leave a five-star review.

You can also follow us at That Psychology Podcast. If you have some feedback, something to say about this episode, further questions or, of course, an episode suggestion. We always love to hear from you. And we will be back next week with another episode. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%.

I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships. and you will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWA% on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

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In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human