The Psychology of your 20s - 176. A conversation with my Mum

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

This International Women's Day as part of iHeart's Women Take the Mic Initiative, I'm bringing on my Mum for a vulnerable chat about our relationship as mother and daughter, what she's learned from being a mother, what she would do differently, life lessons and her success in a male dominated field. We discuss everything from motherhood, child-parent dynamics, feminism and career advice. It's a beautiful conversation, one that I'll hold dearly for a long time and we hope you enjoy, listen now!  Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Today is International Women's Day and I thought what better way to celebrate than to bring my mom on the show to discuss my motherhood, feminism being a leader, a successful woman in a male dominated industry, all of the above. She is a pretty cool lady and my personal hero. I know that sounds cliche, but I am super lucky to have had such a wonderful role model, who has a lot of wisdom to share, and I thought you guys could benefit from some of that

wisdom as well. This episode is part of IHeart's International Women's Day Initiative called Women Take the Mic. You can find a bunch of other interviews just like this one, searching women take the mic wherever you get your podcasts. Let's jump into the interview. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we break down the psychology of our 20s. Today we're going to be doing something a little

bit different. I know I say that every guest is my favorite, but honestly this one I think kind of has to take the cake by obligation because they are blood. I thought it's International Women's Day today who better to talk to who is more my hero than my own mother. So today I'm bringing on my mom to come and have a chat with me. So we talk about mother daughter dynamics, motherhood, being a successful woman in business as she is and feminism and all the good things that come with it. So hey mom. How you going? Hey, Jim. You were saying to me that you were nervous before this.

I'm a bit nervous. Why? Because I probably haven't been, well, I haven't been interviewed by you before. No. It's a different dynamic. And of course, you know, I want to do well by you. Oh, my God. You want to impress the listeners?

Well, I just, I don't want to let you down. I don't want to come across as not being worthy of your wonderful pod. Oh, that's okay. I'll defend you to the death. If anyone says anything, I'll be like, that's my mother you're talking about so block deleted. I honestly think this will be a great chat because we have a good relationship, both as a mother and daughter and as kind of friends as well.

Yeah, me too. I'm looking forward to it. It's just a different dynamic for me. Yeah, I'm in charge. Yeah, you're in my turf. I can't hang up. You can't hang up. We're blood-related.

So I wanted to bring you on because obviously it's International Women's Day. And I was thinking, let's do a special episode. for this. Let's do an episode talking about what it means to be a woman, to identify as a woman. And part of what comes with that is also like a discussion around like our relationship with our mothers and a relationship with our parents and all these other things, how like our childhood informs the women that we grow up to be. And I thought that we could do a little deep dive into what it was like for you to become my mom because I'm the, eldest daughter. You're also the eldest daughter. And just like what I was like as a child,

what it was like becoming a mother, like I said, and then what it's like to run a business, basically, which you do. Well, you're a CEO. So what that's like? Well, certainly plenty to talk about. Yeah. I'm going to start with a hard-hitting question. Okay, go for it. Because I wanted to know this as well. What was I like as a child? Do you remember? Be embarrassed if you don't. No, the funny thing is, you really do remember. And I suspect that there's, I need to be a bit careful because, of course, memories change over time

and you think you remember certain things. I'm sure you remember some things differently to the way I remember them. We can get to that. But actually, the really interesting thing is when I sort of think back on you and your sisters, I've got really clear memories of the days each of you were born, my sort of very clear first impressions of each of you

and it's funny, you're all different. You're, I remember, so what I remember of you, the day you were born, and by the way, you had to come in, you know, with a bang, you were an emergency Caesar child. So there was that. Caesar? There was that. But the thing I remember was in amongst all of this sort of calm chaos

was you sort of coming out with these big eyes, just sort of slowly blinking at the, the world as if to say, you know, where am I and what have I come to, but not, not crying so much and just sort of, you know, trying to sort of focus straight out of the gate, trying to focus on what was around you and trying to make sense of it is what it felt like. I can't remember that, but. Yeah, and then, you know, you were quiet as a little baby for the first week or so, but that changed.

But the other thing, too, is that I think the other really strong kind of recollection for me was that very early on you realise that your kids come out with their own personalities. And because I too had done a bit of psychology in my time, I think there's that whole nature versus nurture sort of thing that goes through. And I think you start off thinking, you know, you're going to be this amazing parent and it's all going to be nurture. But, you know, probably because you were our first, it was a pretty overwhelming kind of sense of,

oh, this little person has come out, you know, with a set, with their own sense of who they are, their own personality. And then what were you like as a kid? You know, you were strong-minded. Oh, that hasn't changed much. No, it hasn't. But you were. You really had strong views even as a youngster.

But you were happy. And as a first child for us, the biggest thing was you were a sleeper. And my golly gosh, we love that. That's so cute. I love that you said, I came out and I was quiet for the first week. and the irony being now I literally talk on the internet for my job, which is so funny. And I am a bit of a yapper, obviously. I love a yarn.

I love a yarn. You were just a quiet little muleau when you were just a wee little baby. And I was your favourite, obviously, for the first five years at least. Well, yeah, as Bart and I say, you're our favourite oldest daughter. Yeah, that's so diplomatic. I still think that you all have a favourite, you just can't say. And I think that I'm yours. hopefully my younger sisters, hopefully Ellie and Hannah aren't listening.

Yeah, well, I'm going to assume they are. Yeah, I'm sure they are. So this is the thing. I feel like, how old were you when you had me? You were 32, right? 33. 33. Okay.

So you were like well into your 30s, but you were like my age, like nine years older than I am now. Yep. And that's like insane to me to think that I would be ready to have a child in nine years. like, let alone in like 15. What was like the biggest lesson you learned having children? Did you actually always want children even when you were younger? Yeah, I always wanted kids even when I was younger. You know, it's interesting because like 33 is, you know,

it's not young to be having kids. Yeah. In the spirit of total frankness, you know this. It took us a while to get pregnant with you. I don't need the internet to know that. Yeah, well. But it's, you know, and it's just, It is one of those things that, you know, we were keen to have kids.

You know, life, you find your partners at whatever age. Other things kind of happen. And, you know, I think one of the things that I was thinking about in terms of this conversation was how people think about when to have kids. And, you know, for me it was when I met your dad. And, you know, we went overseas and did some things. And then came home to Australia and we're keen. to start a family and you know we feel blessed to have three kids but it's not always a straight line

I definitely felt very ready to be having kids but it comes with a lot of you know a lot of ups and downs too and things that you don't know what happens through pregnancies and whatever and so yeah we you know was I ready I was but then in some ways I guess you're never ready because you never know what's going to happen and that's part of the the challenge is the uncertainty of it all was it harder when we were younger or is it harder now? Now that we're, because a lot of us, well, I flew the nest pretty young. I left to her when I was like 17. But Ellie and Hannah are like getting to the point where they're about to leave.

Has it been, that, has that been difficult being like, oh, am I no longer having that role that you've had for 24 years? I think it's, it's one of the other things you do learn when you have kids and maybe I think about this because, you know, you know, I was a working mum for, were big chunks of, you know, your younger life and your sisters as well, and particularly, you know, when you were in primary school. And I think there's a sense that when kids are really young, they really need their parents. And they do for certain things. But, you know, I found when you were in high school and your sisters, as they've gotten older, that you continue to

need your parents, but in different ways and for different things. And that sense changes. But I kind of thought that, you know, there was times when you guys were in high school, for instance, where you needed your parents around just as much as you did when we were in primary school. And so I think that's maybe one of the, I don't know if myths is the right word, but there's so much focus on, you know, being there for kids when they're younger. And actually, I think the pressure is there all the way through and just being clear about that and recognising you have to try to find a way to be there for your kids no matter what else is going on. It's just one of the, you know, one of the challenges, but also one of the great joys of being

a parent when you feel like you're doing that. And hopefully your kids think you're doing that. Well, it's so interesting because I feel like for a lot of, like my teenagers, I didn't really need you. Well, at least I thought I didn't need you. And then as soon as I went to university and then actually, like, probably the second year of university, like the first year I really was like, I don't need my parents. Like, I am a big girl. I am an adult now. I live independently. And then it was like, oh, you get older and it's like the reversal. And you're like, oh, my gosh, I really need my mom. And I'm like, oh, I really, like, it's kind of coming back to the nest. Like, it's such a big thing in your 20s that you fly the nest and you go off and you do your own thing. But then I think that the further along

on that journey, the more you're like, actually I want to come home. And like, and I want to see my parents. and I want to call my parents. And I remember it was like my first, like, big heartbreak when I was at uni that I was like suddenly so much more rely on you guys in a way that I didn't feel like I had been since I was a kid. Yeah, I mean, I think you all, you know, I've seen it in your sisters as well. Of course you go through phases of where you really, independence is really important to you. And it's the actual independence.

and I think it's the perception of independence as well. But I think, you know, from my perspective, just being around sometimes is important then. So, you know, because I think it allows you to sort of go off and live your life, but knowing that if you need it, it's there. And even if you don't necessarily acknowledge it, I think there's a sense that, you know, your parents can provide a bit of a foundation. And, you know, if you do need to come back or need support, we're there. but it's, you know, the flip side is it's fantastic as a parent to see your kids going off and doing that.

And then, yeah, hopefully at different stages, the perception or whatever of that independence becomes less important. And that's the whole thing about your relationship kind of ebbs and flows and evolves. And it's, yeah, it's a nice thing. What's been the hardest part about being a mother? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think in all honesty, it's the sort of vulnerability and the, uncertainty of it. Like you just, you know, with a partner, there's an element of it.

But when you, you know, when you have kids and you just love them so much and care for them so much, it's that, you know, watching them go out into the world and the equal measure of wanting them to be independent and, you know, excited and exploring the world and doing everything that you did, but, you know, also sort of probably having a greater understanding of all the things that can go wrong and just that balance of just, you know, there's always just that little bit of fear. You never want harm or sadness or anything to come to your kids, but that's not the way they can live their lives. So it's just that uncertainty and it's, you know, it brings great excitement and emotion and joy. But every now and then, you know, you're white knuckling in a bit.

Really? It's so interesting because I even feel that way towards Hannah and Ellie, like my sisters, where Ellie is going to uni and I think about what my first two years of uni are like and I want her to have those experiences but I also know like how chaotic and sometimes awful they were and I'm like maybe I'll just protect you from them like maybe you could just be a little girl

a little baby for a little bit longer and like not have those that independence and I'm like I feel that towards my sister I can't imagine what that would feel like as a mother being like I give birth to this child who was now like doing like off in the world and I like don't know what they're where they are don't know what they're doing at all times what was like an experience where you said you were like white knuckling it oh it's you know there's well I don't know you go overseas um and you know

I'm thinking about that time I was in Amsterdam and I called you and was like I'm dying possibly and I wasn't even like on anything I wasn't I know the connotations of like being in Amsterdam I was just like really tired and I was like I'm dying I've decided like my anxiety and I called you guys like three a.m well and it was it was the um you know it was that like maybe white knuckling's the the wrong way to describe it but there is a certain sense that when your phone rings in the middle of the night you know once you've had kids that that has a certain like you leap to you can leap to the wrong conclusion and so your your heart starts racing um you calm yourself down but then You know, there was an element of, do it would have been nice if you'd phone the next day

to remind us that you were okay. No, no, that's not how it works. I was too, so I was 18 and selfish. I wasn't going to let you guys know I was okay. But the other thing too is just the emotional sort of stuff and the emotional hurt. And so that's why, you know, white knuckling's not the right term. But you do expose yourself to feeling it. And, you know, you've experienced it yourself.

But then to watch other people who you care about go through some of that stuff, which is just, it's just life. But, you know, it's not easy to see other people go through that and to be sad or to be, you know, to be hurt. And in some ways, really the emotional stuff is harder than, you know, going to get the stitches or whatever else. And, you know, we've had conversations about this that, you know, we try to do the right thing.

We tried to raise each of you as independent people who could make their own decisions and who were resilient. to those challenges. And sometimes it meant, you know, letting you find your way a bit and I'm sure that felt hard. And it was hard to watch but, and experience as well. But you've got to, you know,

it's always trying to walk that line of doing things that, that, you know, trying to be the parent that sets you up for success in your future, which sometimes, you know, comes across as, you know, not necessarily being the kindest or most protective parent at different stages when you're younger. I know exactly what you're referring to. And I remember being in primary school and all of the people, all of my friends had these like helicopter parents who had a drop of the hat would be there to fix things for them and you guys were not those parents. You were like, oh, you're having problems at school? Great. Go and talk to your teacher. Deal with it. Like, not that callous. You weren't

like deal with it like get out of our face we don't want to hear from you but it was like that thing where I did have a point where I was like gosh I wish that my mom was just like a bit more angry on like on my behalf and I'm sure you were but you were like and now I'm super grateful for the fact that you made me be a problem solver and independent because it's I think a big part of my personality but that was definitely times where I was like gosh I do just want my mom to scream at someone for me well there were times when can I just say that little bit of independence, which usually your dad let you exercise more than me. There were moments when I similarly went to pick you up from childcare and thought,

what is she wearing or what is she doing? And then packing your own lunch that had its highs and lows as well. Oh, yeah, what did I pack? Junk food? Well, just fair few crackers. Yeah, duh. I was a growing girl. I was hungry.

I was sharing them. I don't know why. So this is like a hot, hot question, but you have three daughters. Did you ever want a son? Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? Look, I think you always, I think you always sort of think, oh, you know, one of each, you know, at least like having one of each in the family, not necessarily just two kids, but yeah, I think you do, but can I be really honest and say, well, for starters,

I reckon with every one of my pregnancies, at least at one stage, someone told me that I was having a boy. And no one ever told me I was having girls. But like with you, we were walking down the street in Fitzroy one morning. And this Italian nonna came from across the street. Like walked, you know, 100 metres from across the street came up to me and said, it's a boy. So that was pretty funny. And when I was pregnant with Hannah, I definitely thought she was a boy just because she behaved so. differently in the womb to the rest of you because she was a little pocket rocket in there.

But so after you and, like, after you and Ellie, I have to say my greatest fear was that I was going to have a boy because I was like, okay, I've got two girls now. I think I understand them. And a boy is just going to like throw me off now. Yeah. But I think it's, this is going to sound like such a cliche. but, and in all honesty, because after you were born, like, you know, the whole, the emergency seizure thing was a moment. And at the time, it was, you know, our doctor was fantastic.

But when I looked back, I thought, wow, that was a moment. And from then on, you do just sort of think, well, I'm just, I just feel blessed to have healthy kids, you know, so that's the truth of it. So I, you didn't know what gender, did you, was it a surprise? All three, yeah. No way. I didn't. know that? Yeah. Oh, that's so cute. And the funny thing is that each time around we had three

names for boys, but only one name for a girl. So they knew. Someone in the, someone in the universe knew. So that's actually really interesting. I had no idea. But I do also think you didn't have sons, but you raised us like sons. I, I've said this since I was like younger. I'm like, you guys raised us like boys in a very like traditional stereotypical way that people raise children like boys just letting us get into so much mischief we were always dirty i'm pretty sure i only wore boys clothes for a long time buzz light your t-shirt buzz light your outfits honey don't just say t-shirts you were the full kitten caboodle yeah well i was a super fan i was i was i was a stand i loved that man yeah but yeah i just feel like there was so many ways that you guys kind of did raised us

without like an idea of gender like i maybe i'm just being remembering things the way i want to remember them, but I don't remember having dolls. I think also it was the fact that maybe like the gender stereotypes were less. You're lying. You're lying now. Come on. Really? What doll did I have? Oh my goodness. Come on. What did you use to do to your Barbies? Oh, I used to, I made weird Barbie. I used to cut all the hair off. Yeah. And their fingers as well. I want the extra mile. You definitely, I don't remember the fingers, but you definitely were queen of the Barbie haircut. These were punk rocker barbies. Yeah. Here we go. I think one of the things, too, that I've come to, really appreciate and you know you make the decisions you do in terms of work and life and all

the rest of it but I've really come to the view that the fact that your dad's you know spent a lot of time at home with each of you and it was very clear for you I think from my perspective and I think it's because there were fewer men in the playground at the time but having a father at home he let you take more risks. There's no doubt about it. And he was much more comfortable with that. And there are so many times, you want to talk about white knuckling actually,

watching you race to the corner of the footpath on your bike every time as you just scream down the street on your bike, I just used to think, oh my gosh, I hope she stops in time. And it's the same for each of your sisters. But, you know, Bart was just he let you guys, you know, jump and run and climb and, you know, he was famous in the, I mean, I remember coming around the corner of the playground at the school and seeing all of the mums kind of standing in a semi-circle with their mouths open and I knew what was going on and it was Bart standing there throwing

kids in the air and they had this kind of half happy, half-terrified look on their face and it just so explains the difference of, you know, I think how you guys were raised. Well, it's true because dad was a stay-at-home dad for most. of our childhood. I know there was a period where you were, you stayed at home, but you were still working, but he was like a full stay-at-home dad. And I know I'm talking about you, but there was definitely moments that I remember being a kid where he faced a lot of discrimination for that whilst you probably also faced a lot of discrimination for being a working mom. Like, neither of you had it easy to kind of subvert the gender norms. The one I always think of is

the time that that woman wouldn't let her daughter come over because, she thought he was a sex offender or something like that. It was someone who, yeah, did, I won't repeat it because it was illegal. It was illegal, yeah. And it was. But yeah, he faced that. It was, yeah, he faced that. But equally, I'm not sure if you remember this.

This was when I went to, when I just started this period. So this is about five years when I was predominantly the stay-at-home parent. You were in high school by then, but your sisters were in primary school. And I remember going to a birthday party that one of Ellie's friends was having and we were at, you know, that indoor playground. And I arrived to the party and the woman who was hosting it, you know, sort of said to me, oh, you know, who's your child? And I said, oh, Ellie.

And she said, well, she goes, oh, are you, are you Barts' wife? And I said, yes. And she said, oh, and all along I just thought he was. was this lovely single dad. Oh my gosh. And I just thought, it's so embarrassing for her. Oh, it's just, it was just really brutal. And I thought, what, and what do I think about all your mums who come and pick your kids up?

And so it just, it spun both ways. Yeah, it really did. Yeah, but I'm glad that it happened that way because I feel like we got a really unique childhood. And now it's so much more common. But back then, like, it was so weird, like early, early 2000s to see like a stay-at-home dad. Oh, it was just, it was, it was a tough gig, it was in both ways, like, it was very hard for him, very lonely, to be honest.

But, and look, I don't, you know, I'm not trying to say it was better or worse for either of us, but it was, you know, it was equally frustrating if you'd rock up in the school yard to, you know, I'd drop you off at school and I'd be in a suit and on my way to work and people would stop and ask me if I was coming to the book reading at 11.30. and, you know, in contrast, the dads who were dropping off in their suits, no one, everyone knew where they were going, they were all going to work, and they didn't get, they got praise for making time to drop their kids off, and they weren't asked, you know, are you going to stay longer? And it sounds like a small thing, but there was always a bit of, it was hard not to feel a little bit of guilt. Yeah, or like, feel like they're being like, oh, you're like a failure as a mother

because you're not sticking around and we are. Because I haven't, I haven't made the time. that. It was, it just felt like that was the message. Here's the thing. I don't remember a single book reading. So I don't think it mattered that you weren't there. You were there for the important things. Yeah, well, I think, I hope that that's the case. But regardless, you have to, you make the, you make the decisions that have to work for, you know, your family. And it's a combination of a whole bunch of things. And it's, you know, you've got to have income and, you know, ideally you have a house to live in and financial security and you know you've got to you just

make those choices and they're not set and forget you kind of ebb and flow with that but i think the hard the hard part and the thing you probably get a bit more perspective on when you get a bit older is that those opinions don't really matter and um yeah you've got to you've got to glide past them a little bit and know that you're making the best decisions that you can you know and there's no you're never going to do it perfectly well well that kind of leads to next question. Do you think you made any mistakes? Would you do anything differently? Did we make mistakes? 101 mistakes. Yeah, name a couple. I want something to blame you about. I want something to hold over your head. Well, there's, there's, I don't know, there's lots of little

things. You go back and you, you know, partly you say things or you phrase something in a particular way and you, you know, you don't think about it, but it lands, it gets heard in a particular way. and, you know, when your kids recount things back to you, you didn't mean it that way or you didn't, the context, you saw the context differently. There's 101 little things like that and, you know, all sorts of stuff. And I don't look back and think that there's one major thing that we did, you know, we had, but you know that you didn't get everything right.

and whether it was what you did or the tone that you did it with in the time, you just know that. But would you do anything differently? I think that's a hard, I mean, in some ways I think it's a hard question or even a harsh question because, you know, you do the best that you can at the time.

And, you know, I think one thing that's very hard on parents, if I'm honest, is that there's so much else going on. There's so much other context that your kids don't know about. And nor should they. But it does mean that sometimes, you know, you come home from work, there's been a lot of stuff going down. There's a lot of stress or anxiety related to other things that you don't necessarily want to share with your kids. But it does inform some of the decisions you make or how you communicate them.

And at the time, you know, I don't think your kids appreciate it. When you grow up, I think you do. But, yeah, that's all in the mix. On a lighter note, I'll give you an example. Yeah, tell me. Ellie teases me all the time because I'm not sure if you remember this, but I used to sing songs to you guys when I was putting you to bed. And Ellie in particular always just wanted to sing along.

Aw, she's so cute. She's still like that. But I just wanted it to go to sleep. And so she teases me now about the fact that I would be quite firm on the, like, no, you're not to sing the songs with me. And she says, you're singing all these cute songs. songs and all I wanted to do was sing along, but you would say, no, you've got to go to bed now. So maybe on reflection I would have done that differently.

That's, that's so cute because it's like, I forget that although we each like grew up together, we, I'd never heard that. Like, we had such different memories of like our interactions with you. That's so cute. Oh my God, she's adorable. I'm going to say, yeah. She also, well, I mean, so here's the other thing. So I'm trying to get her to sleep because Hannah, of course, didn't sleep at all.

And so when she's recounting these stories, like we're in year one of the five-year stage of, you know, youngest daughter not sleeping through the night. I'm going to ask you a few more questions around motherhood. And I want to ask whether you think that you were a feminist mother, not just a feminist, but were you a feminist mother. So this is a really interesting question for me because for a couple reasons. One, because I actually think I've become more of a feminist as I've gotten older. And if I think about it in the context of not just being someone who believes in equal rights and lives that way and hopefully raises their girls that way and I'll come back to it. But I'd probably be a bit critical of me in terms of being.

a really strong advocate for other women. So I think in the way I lived in the things I did, but if I think about, you know, feminists being an advocate and a really strong advocate for all women, I'm not sure I'd give myself a huge score on that, to be honest. I'd look back and think I could have done more or have been more vocal in different circumstances. But in terms of how I raised being a feminist mother,

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I think, you know, in terms of being an advocate for each of you, both as individuals but also as girls and young women, yeah, I do think so. Yeah, I would say so as well. I do think that like this, but the brand of feminism that we had when we were younger was very white feminism. But I think also that was like just what was there at the time. I always think about like Hillary Clinton as like an example

but I also think that like it's just like the process of unlearning your white feminism in a way especially like where we lived you know we lived in like in Australia in inner city Australia where like the discussions about like intersectionality weren't being

had back in like 2000 like the early 2000 But now I feel like you're such a good example. Also, I feel like you're not giving yourself enough credit there. Like you being an advocate, I think you did a lot more than most other people. Think about all your friends. Like, you have so many strong female friends who you advocate for in so many ways. Yeah, look, I appreciate that.

There's just some things I've learned on the way through and some things in leadership roles where if I was being honest, you know, I think I could have done more. or maybe I came late to some of the things that I should have been, you know, doing more of and being much more supportive and more demonstrably supportive, I think, and just recognising the importance of that over-demonstration of being a champion or a supporter of people, not having it be sort of implied or assumed. How do you think that our relationship has changed as I've become an adult? Do you think we've gotten closer?

Yeah, no, I definitely think so. But I think it's one of those things that, yeah, I don't know. Like, it's just a different type of closeness, right? Like there's maybe a weird word, but there's an intimacy with your kids when you're younger and a closeness and a dependency that, that's, you know, that's really close, right? And, and a lot of fun in that. And that, you know, that fun piece is a closeness that's pretty unique to that younger state when your kids are younger.

And it's, it's just lovely. But, you know, as your kids grow older and certainly with you, you know, being able to have grown up conversations and, you know, what I think it is is being able to experience and appreciate that respect. And, you know, there's not a lot of people that you go through life with where you just really look at them and think, I really respect who you are as a person. And, well, and I've got, you know, I feel lucky to have a lot of really good friends who I do really respect, but there's, you know, there's not that many people. And anyway, it's fun to sort of have been a part of that and to have seen you grow up. and then to have so much respect and appreciation and admiration for what you've done.

And I guess, to be honest, if I'm being a little bit egotistical, you sort of feel like you're a little bit of part of that. And it's very special. I do like to give you guys a lot of credit, I will say. I don't want too much. It's just that little bit where you sort of like, every now and then, yeah, she's mine. Do you? Yeah.

I think dad does it more than you do. No comment. Oh, diplomatic. Do you find it weird when, you know, when I was like in my, as I got into my early 20s, did you find it weird when I would talk about my relationships or like sex or anything like that? Was that weird? Because I feel like there was a point where it kind of, yeah, I don't know. I was like, am I treating my mom more like my friend or like my mom?

Yeah, I didn't find it weird. I mean, occasionally there was an early podcast that, uh, I'm not sure if you remembered this, but you said something along the lines of, oh, my parents might be listening. And I jokingly was saying, yeah, I rang you up and said, yes, I'm listening, which, you know, of course was not contemporary, but nonetheless. So every now and then there's maybe a bit, you know, too much information. I think the hardest part is that I was probably, I'm very close to my mum, your grandma, you know that.

And we probably share more information now. but when I was younger, so it was me and my brother, but I had a stepbrother and a step-sister and that sort of mixed marriage. And, you know, my mum and my stepfather were sort of off kind of building their own life together. And the easiest thing for me to do was just, you know, play my cards close to my chest.

So I didn't share a lot of information. It wasn't really letting anyone know what I was up to live in my own life. And like you, I was at uni when I was 17. And so, and then, you know, my parents moved into state. So I was lucky, lucky you're really independent, but in a kind of flip scenario, if you like. And so I probably wasn't sharing as much as information. And, you know, I think it was just getting used to what you were prepared to sort of share as well. It wasn't that it was right or wrong or I felt uncomfortable.

It was just different to perhaps the way I had been at that age. And so just a bit of getting used to that. Yeah, it's so interesting. Are there things you don't want to hear? Maybe There's maybe a bit of dating information that Before the not to be named

boyfriend arrived on the scene I I went a little bit Whilst not wanting to look uninterested It was a bit la la la in my brain I feel like I'm very good where I'm like I don't talk about them by name

Or introduce you until it's like serious Like Until we've been dating for at least six months So I feel like my current boyfriend, just not even my current, my boyfriend will be for a long time. Just kind of like popped onto the scene. And then you guys, I think I mentioned him and then you met him like a month later. Yeah, that's fine. It's more, I mean, if I'm being really honest, it's not that.

It's more the more casual relationships. Oh, you didn't approve. It's not that I didn't approve. I just didn't need to know about that. Yeah. I'm just going to say this for the listeners. The information that I was giving my mom was like, oh, a man was at my house last night. And you'd be like, no, he was not true. That's not true. The funny one was when I picked you up on a Saturday morning because we were flying back to Melbourne for Grandma's birthday. And you were furtively texting someone in the back seat of the Uber. which was the person who was still at your place. Did you know that? Well, yeah, because you ended up having to tell me

because I couldn't figure out what all the texting was going on about. Yeah, that was, oh my God, I completely forgot about that. Oh, yeah, that's so true. That did happen. And the thing was, you know what it was, was, it was actually not good because my house where I'm moving out literally today. But my current house, once you're in the house and the door is locked, you can't get out without a key. And it's metal bars all over the windows, all over the doors.

And all of the doors were locked and there were no keys in the house. And my roommates weren't coming back until that evening. So I accidentally locked that man in my house for eight hours before he could get out. And I was, and I was like, we were running late for our flight. I was like, and well obviously he's not around anymore so I'm not going to say you're going to be like sorry but can you imagine if he was listening sorry I locked to in my house for eight hours that's so funny that's so funny 2% that is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available I'm Michael Easter and on my podcast 2% I break down the science of mental

toughness fitness and building resilience in our strain modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled healthier person. Listen to 2%.

That's TWO% on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick you here. unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black. people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years from black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts. Business. I want to talk about work because I was very lucky that I had a mother like you who was very, very independently successful. No Nepo babies here. You worked very, very hard, but you also had a very unconventional way to success. Like you got you know, it was crazy to hear when I first went to uni that you actually got asked to leave your university. You got kicked out from the economics department and now you are an economist and you are a very good economist and you're also a CEO. What do you think were some of the hardest parts about breaking into that male dominated industry? Well, first of all, let's not just slide over getting kicked out of uni because I do actually think it's, an important message. I think there's so much pressure on people at high school and in their

20s around, you know, going to uni and just doing everything. Getting amazing grades, you know, paying for a life that's more and more expensive by the day, you know, and doing all the extracurricular stuff so that you end up with a CV that gets you into a job that you want, right? And I just think there's just so much pressure on, I think, and to understand where you're going and what you think you should be doing. So I actually make a point of talking about the fact that it took me, you know, quite a few years to get through a uni. I was fortunate, it didn't cost what it costs you guys now.

But I did fail two years of university because I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I actually started off doing a psychology degree, double degree. and really struggled. I was doing a whole bunch of sport and athletics and just didn't know what I wanted to do, decided I didn't want to be a clinical psychologist. But, yeah, it was just sort of floundering. You know, when I came out of uni,

I couldn't get a job interview. Why? Because your grades were so bad. The transcript was crap. And, yeah, I'd done all these other things, and I'd worked and I'd, you know, I had competed successfully in athletics and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, it was just on a wing and a prayer for me to go, those grades don't reflect who I really am and they're like, well, whatever.

So I took a year off and worked for a little while, traveled overseas, which was a great experience. I met some people who just didn't have the opportunities that I had, including a young woman studying economics, you know, in Turkey of all places, who was just never going to have the opportunities that I had. And so I came back and started studying again to sort of show that I could get through it and then ended up really enjoying it. So I guess, you know, at the risk of sort of waffling on a bit about it, I do think it's an important message for people to, life isn't a straight line.

And as long as you're sort of learning and growing and heading in a direction that you're enjoying, you know, just keep going with it. And when it stops working, then go and do something else. It's so interesting because you have lived so many lives that, like, I wasn't there for. Like, I always think about how, you know, I've known you my entire life, but you've only known me, for the last 24 years. And there were all these things that happened before me that you have a lot of wisdom from. Like, you were my age once

and, like, just going through the same level of, like, confusion and, like, big life changes. And I do think that's a really nice message. And I think that's one that you really always instilled in us of, like, there is not a clear blueprint for what creates a good life. You're allowed to, like, take time to figure it out. And obviously, we're all kind of doing that now. Like, what is this job?

know what this this wasn't a job when I was a kid actually it kind of was do you remember we used to always listen to the radio this american life I love that show still I feel like that was such a huge inspiration did you experience a lot of like imposter syndrome going back to uni or when you were applying for jobs again because your transcript was so not great well it's really it's really funny like on imposter syndrome yes um all through my career um and you know I've done I've chopped and changed a little bit and absolutely like I can like imposter syndrome when I started my first job because I started at federal treasury and you know to get in there was you know challenging and there were you know my cohort cohort of grads was just so impressive like in some ways I was

pretty focused on what I wanted to get out of that I had a really clear objective and so in some ways I kind of ignored a whole bunch of other stuff like if I'm really honest and you know back to the question about feminism or whatever. Like I had a goal and I just ran hard at it. And in some ways, I was, you know, people sort of said to me, well, you're sort of singular focus on that opportunity, you know, was probably too much and whatever. But, you know, I don't think they would have said that if I was a man, to be honest.

And it worked. No, no way. So it did work. You are now. But so it was like you were doing economics, which at the time, like, a bit of a boys game. And then also business is like commerce, kind of the commerce side of it as well. Yeah, I mean, I think, sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt.

I also wanted to come back on the imposter syndrome and my results. When I was interviewed for treasury, the person who was interviewing me asked me precisely once about those, my results. And they said, what happened here? And I told them, and that was it. What did you say? You're just like, I just didn't know what I wanted. Yeah, I said I was doing all these other things.

I had way too much on. I didn't know what I wanted. I was floundering. I came back with intent and here's the results. And that was fine. And sorry, to come back, the reason I wanted to come back to that is because fast forward a few years later when I was actually interviewing graduates for Treasury, there was a bunch of people being put on piles whose results kind of looked a bit like mine.

And I wanted to interview one or two of them. and a few people in the room were just like, no way. And so I fessed up and said, well, you wouldn't have, I wouldn't be here. Like, don't you want to know, like there's one person in particular, I was looking at their results. And they'd gone from, you know, really poor results to just knocking out of the park. And I said, don't you want to know what happened there? Don't you, because that switch has flipped. And I want to know what's gone on and what this person is up to because that's the person I want to talk to.

And so, again, it was just a kind of an interesting life lesson, if you like. Like boys jobs, yeah, like I probably treasury, there were fair few female grads and, you know, we were very focused on making sure we continue to recruit them. So yes, it was male dominated. It was more that I had opportunities to be in really interesting meetings where everyone who was more senior was male. And that was good. I don't know, maybe this is a funny sidebar, but my name's Melinda.

People sometimes call me Mel, but at work, and particularly at Treasury, when I was at Treasury, that's when I decided people had to call me Melinda. Because Mel sounds like a male name as well? Like Mel Gibson. No, it was too dismissive. Oh, really? I went into my mail boss introduced me one day and said, oh, this is Mel. And it was just sort of, it was just a throwaway line, and I thought, I can't have that

throwaway line. And so I... So you needed the extra syllables for the extra legitimacy. Well, but it was just all part and parcel of how you presented. Yeah. I actually agree with that. So I just thought I can't have him just saying that the, and, you know, we work closely together, but it just felt like it was a trivialization of my introduction.

Yeah. So you're kind of like at this point in your career now where you just, I'm sure you feel pretty secure. Like you're a bit of a boss bitch. It's true though. And I know that like that word like, like she's such a boss. Like what is it? Like, your boss. It's girl boss.

is like kind of funny because it's now like yeah it's used very dismissively like you're a girl boss but having come through so many stages and like I don't think you're going to retire any time soon unless you are and then that's a surprise for me what advice would you give me right now at this stage in my career and I know it's very different to what you're what you were doing at 24 like you hadn't even graduated at 24. Had you? No, you wouldn't have. You would have just gotten your master's.

Oh, I graduated a couple of degrees. Oh. But what would you do now? What advice would you give me at this stage? Well, can I ask a slightly different question and then, can I respond to a question you haven't asked and then I'll respond to that question? You're asking the questions now.

You're taking over the show. Well, you can't if you want. No, I'm joking. You can totally do that. No, the one thing. Just some reference to sort of being the sort of boss pitch language or whatever or label. Girl boss. Or whatever you want to call.

Like I do, I think, I did want to say there's one thing I've really enjoyed about leading an organisation is being able to sort of set the tone and the values. And I think people can think about a whole bunch of things that being a CEO means or whatever. And there's a lot of, there's different responsibilities. But probably the one thing I didn't really think about and underestimate. was that was the sense of satisfaction that you get out of kind of being able to set the tone for an organisation. Yeah.

And I think the reason it's, I'm kind of, I'm using as a bit of a segue into your question because I think it's like, it's, it's caused me to sort of reflect on how you set your tone through your career. And, and I guess that's, that would be my kind of advice, I guess, is to, you know, to think about, you know, who you are and what sort of. person you want to be through the work that you do. And to not be necessarily confined by thinking about a particular role or a particular point in your career, but to, you know, think about the things that you enjoy doing because you do them well and because you can have an impact,

whatever that is and just that sort of tone and the values, the way you want to live your life, to find ways to live that through work. And it's probably something that you gain a confidence to be able to do through your career. And when I look back, you know, it's probably one of the things you feel less confident doing when you're, you know, early on in a job or whatever that you sort of feel sometimes you have to behave a particular way or be in a particular role. And, you know, I was a company director at a very young age. I was the only woman on the first boardser I joined. And there's certainly a lot of pressure to sort of be the persona of that.

And I guess that's probably my bit of advice. If you can find a way to do that faster than I did, that would be my advice. Oh, to find, like, your mission. But also just to be who you are and to know that that's, you know, you don't have to be the persona. You don't have to perform that role in the way other people have performed that role or be that person. And so it's just trying to be true to who you are as a person and bring that into your work is probably what I'd put on the table. Thanks, Mom.

I appreciate the advice. Now, I think that's all the questions that I have. Are there any more questions you would like to ask yourself? If you feel the need. No, no, no, that's it. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad. I feel like we covered a lot of bases here.

We talked about motherhood. We talked about feminism. We talked about how you were a terrible parent and everything I have to blame you for, just kidding. Nothing was the answer. So thank you so much for coming on. Absolute pleasure. I could think of nothing else I'd rather be doing.

Yeah. Well, I'll... That's so sweet. Why did that make me embarrassed? I'm like, oh, thanks, Mom. No, it was actually so nice, and I feel like it's so nice that we'll have this for, like it will be on the internet for a while, and we can listen back to this when I'm thinking about putting you in a home or something.

Oh, I remember. You can just play it on repeat and I'll feel happy. Oh, I'm not going to put you in a home. Do you want to be put in a home? Depends. Depends. You may want to put me in a home. No, I won't for as long as possible.

In the meantime, I'm looking forward to coming. and sleeping on your couch tomorrow. Oh my gosh, yeah, my mom's coming to stay in my new place tomorrow. It's very comfy. I actually had a lie down on it before. I tested it for you. Perfect. I can't believe I'm making you sleep on the couch.

But unfortunately, the bed's taken. Well, thank you again for coming on, as always. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. Share it with a friend if they would like to hear it. And if you have any further episode suggestions, questions for my girl boss mom, please feel free to DME on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast or my personal at Gemma Spag. And we will be back next week for another episode. 2%.

That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%.

That's TWO%. On the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.