The Psychology of your 20s - 180. "Your 20s are NOT your best years" ft. Dr Meg Jay

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

In this episode we are joined by clinical psychologist and author of 'The Defining Decade' to talk about all the frustrations, stressors, misconceptions and hard moments of our 20s and why it's only going to get BETTER from here. We talk about:  Shifting from a 'what if' to a 'what is' or 'what else' mindset Why we fear uncertainity  Milestone anxiety  Sliding versus deciding  Catastrophic thinking  Insecure and anxious attachment styles vs. insecure and anxious moments And so much more  Listen now to hear all of Dr Meg's amazing advice and hear a bit about her new book, coming out next month.    Link to The Defining Decade: https://www.amazon.com.au/Defining-Decade-Meg-Jay/dp/0446561754  Pre-order Meg's new book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Twentysomething-Treatment/Meg-Jay/9781668012291  Follow Jemma here: @jemmasbeg  Follow the podcast here: @thatpsychologypodcast     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode, back for another topic. And today, back for another guest episode. I love doing these every now and again. And I'm super selective with the people that I bring on because I want them to really have something to say about the 20-something experience about what it means to be, you know, growing up during this time and at this age and during this decade. And I feel like one of the main experiences a lot of us have, one of the universal 20-something experiences is feeling incredibly behind and incredibly lost. And today we are bringing on someone who has spoken a lot about

this, who has written numerous books about this experience. Dr. Meg J. Thank you so much for joining us. It's my pleasure, Gemma. I'm so glad to be here. So if you don't know who Meg is, you've definitely heard of her work. She is the author of The Defining Decade, one of my all-time favorite pieces of nonfiction. Thank you. Yeah, so I am a developed, well, I was saying, I love the title of your podcast because that's my whole life. I'm a developmental clinical psychologist, and I specialize in 20-somethings, which is a thing. It wasn't a thing. 20-year-old. years ago when I started, which we could discuss that later too. But, you know, it's a very unique developmental moment. It has its own unique challenges, its own unique solutions. And so that's

what, you know, all my days and all my books are about. So what exactly drew you to really thinking about people in their 20s? I think it was a natural inclination for me. I started this podcast as someone in their 20s. I'm still in my 20s. What was the fascination for you with this, with this decade? Yeah, so I, believe it or not, I have been specializing in 20-somethings for 25 years. So maybe for like roughly your whole life so far. And so when I started doing that, I was actually in graduate school at UC Berkeley. I was getting a degree in clinical psychology and I was studying something called adult development. And when you say that to people, they're like, what? What's adult development? I thought adults were already developed. And, you know, adult development is,

is if you look at a 20-year-old and you look at 100-year-old, adult development is all the stuff that happens from 20 to 100. But when I started studying adult development, most of what was done there was about, you know, midlife crises or, you know, the elderly, or, you know, maybe it was, you know, the child rearing years. But there really hadn't been much of anything done on the 20s.

And we can talk about this more in a minute, but it had been somewhat recent that the 20s were sort of their own developmental moment. I mean, they're really, if you think about it, they're nothing like the teen years. They're not that like the 30-something years and beyond. They're really their own thing. So I was sort of discovering this along with a lot of research about all the amazing developmental things that are happening in our 20s. There's more change between 20 and 30 than any other decade in adulthoods.

And I was living in a college town, right? So I was inundated with young adults and 20-somethings who were sort of, you know, my first clients, guinea pigs and all this. So it just, and I had just finished my 20s. So it just felt like there was so much there. It was really where all the action is and no one was focusing specifically on that space. And one of the ways I figured that out was a lot of people would come to my office and ask the same questions. I would tell them the same things. and I thought, you know, I need to be able to recommend a book for people.

So I went into the bookstore looking for something back when people did that. And there was nothing. It was like the girlfriend's guide to your 20s, you know, maybe. There was just some couple of fluff projects out there. So I thought, wow, this is, you know, an untapped need that there's this period of time, which is very unique and people aren't really talking about it and focusing on and specializing it. So I started doing that and I have never looked back. I've never wanted to do anything else.

It is just to me the most important decade of life. It's also super difficult, which we can talk about, but I love it. It's so funny you were saying, like, you've been doing this for 25 years. It's like your career is a 20-something-year-old. Yes, yes, exactly. That's true. Yes, it's all about that decade one way or the other. So you said something in there, you were like, it's the most formative

decade, which I really agree, but it's also the most difficult. Like, it really exists in this vacuum between adolescence and what I sometimes refer to as like real adulthood, like in your 30s when all the things that you thought, you know, you would experience as an adult, maybe getting married, having children, buying a home. They kind of, for a lot of us, are happening a lot later. What do you think creates this real difficulty for a lot of? of us during this period. Well, it's, it's really that is that, you know, you're absolutely right. Adult milestones are now, you know, and I thought of adult milestones, I mean, you know,

figuring out your job and finding a partner, picking a city, you know, maybe getting a home, maybe having a kid. Like, that's all closer to 30 than to 20 now. And so in the 20s, it's just this big, wide open period of uncertainty. There's a lot more to sort of worry about than there is to hold on to do. The brain doesn't like that. So your mental health does not like that. And so it makes the 20s, you know, from where I'm standing, it's an amazing opportunity to work with people before they've made all their biggest decisions and to help them do that more thoughtfully, more productively, more happily. But it's from the other side of the room, the 20-something that I'm working with is living with more uncertainty than they will, really, at any

other time of life. And that's what makes the 20s so hard is that it's probably the only time of life where you'll wake up in the morning and you think, gosh, you know, I don't really know where I'll live in five years, or if anyone's going to love me, or if I can pay my bills or where I'm going to work or if I can be happy. And that's really, really hard. And I don't think we talk enough about how hard all that uncertainty is. Well, let's talk about it now. Why is it that this uncertainty is so scary for us. Like how does that manifest in maybe our behaviors, even our mental health, the patterns that you see in 20-somethings?

Yeah, well, I'll geek out briefly on brain stuff. But the brain interprets uncertainty as danger. And if you think about this evolutionarily, this makes sense. Like if you don't know what's around the corner, you're going to assume, you know, it's a bear, not, you know, it's a little bunny rabbit and things are fine. That's how we survive, that your brain is wired to keep you alive, not make you happy. So when there's uncertainty, we're going to interpret it as danger. We're going to feel stress.

We're going to feel anxious. Some people get sort of avoidant and depressed. Other people reach for substances or, you know, whatever they do to kind of manage that stress around, yikes. I don't know what's about to happen in my life. So it's not something the brain likes very much, but in the 21st century, it's this sort of staggering amount of uncertainty that 20-somethings live with. I mean, they live with it day in and day out for 5, 10, 15 years. And so that really takes the toll on people's well-being, on their mental health. Life does get better, and we can talk about that too.

But the 20s are tough. And I think we kind of maybe imagine or are told. that they're going to be this, you know, best years of our lives, but they're probably not and you don't even want them to be. You want life to get better as you go. I say that a lot, actually. I was saying it to someone before. Our 20s are when you have probably the least amount of money you will ever be making. Right. Your relationships are like up in the air. Everything feels so uncertain.

You're probably quite emotionally vulnerable. you don't probably like your job that much. And there is such an expectation of like, these are your best years. These are like, you better like really hold on to them because once they're gone, like they're going to be the source of all your nostalgia, all your memories. And I'm just like, is that really as good as it's going to be? I mean, let's hope not. No.

I mean, that's what I say to my clients. If your 20s turn out to be the best years of your life, something has gone terribly wrong. because empirically, we know that actually, it may be hard to imagine in the 20-something, but life does get 30-somethings are happier than 20-somethings. And even old 40-somethings are happier than 30-somethings. Even the 50-somethings are happy. I mean, actually people do become happier, more grounded. Their relationships are better.

They have purpose. They have meaning. They have sort of that emotional stability, that life security. So life really does get better. I'm not really sure how this kind of myth keeps perpetuating that, you know, your 20s are going to be amazing. I mean, there's some fun, cool stuff that goes on, but they're very hard. And all those things you mentioned of like, you're broke, you're moving to a new city, you don't have friends, new job, stressful. You know, your boss is, you know, stressing you out, et cetera.

That's real. And, you know, the 20s are actually, I think, well for most people may be more difficult than they are sometimes that makes me hearing you say that because i i'm such an optimistic person right so right now i'm like my life is like the best it's ever going to be and so for some reason when people are like oh it gets better at 30 it gets better at 40 I'm like but what if it can't get any better so it has to get worse like what if i've got the inverse like what if this is what if i'm the exception like it but then i'm like Yeah, I find that hard to believe because the reason life gets better, it's not like just this random growth curve you're on.

It gets better because you is a 20-something, whatever cool stuff you've built that you're super psyched about, and I'm very happy to hear that you feel like you have a great life, you're going to keep doing that. So you're going to build, you know, there'll be more relationships or deeper relationships. Your career is going to just get even better or your financial security will be, better and I mean that's sort of why it happens is that people I mean there's generally an upward trajectory in life and of course nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow you know with the big stuff but you know in terms of people's individual lives I mean I love it if you feel like you've already built a lot of good stuff in your 20s because you're just going to keep building on that

that's so um so reinforcing to hear the other thing that I um that actually a lot of people this is what I really want to talk about is like feeling like there is almost it's a bit of a race and feeling like it's a race to find the one. It's a race to buy a house. It's a race to have it all figured out. Why do you think so many of us feel this sense of just being behind during this decade? And what are we actually behind? Like behind what?

Right. Well, that would be my question. Again, clients do say, but I'm behind. And I say behind what, behind who? You know, if you say behind what, there's usually a who. Well, so and so has such and such and I don't have that. Or, well, my parents had X, Y, and Z when they were my age, and I don't have that. So there's usually some person or some idea that someone's comparing themselves to.

But kind of the maybe maddening, but a truly wonderful thing about your 20s and beyond is you can't. There's just so many different paths you can't compare. Like when you were in school and everyone was in the same grade and you could compare your biology test with my biology test. You know, it's just not the way not everybody's taking the same biology test anymore. And, you know, we've all had different paths through life and are doing different things. So, I mean, you really can't compare two different lives. But we do. So usually when people say that they're behind, they feel like they're behind somebody or some ideal that they had.

But, you know, a lot of what I do is I like to say that education is an intervention. And so writing books and talking on podcasts, you kind of get the real information out there. And, you know, I remind people, well, let's look at, you know, the average age of some of these milestones. You know, in the U.S. anyway, average age of marriage is like 29. First kid is maybe 30. Home ownership is 35. and these are just averages. So the more career-driven or educated you are,

these things can often happen even later because you're spending more time in school. So, you know, I think most of the clients that I have aren't behind, but I think they're worried that they will be because these are such long-form projects. And you can't see, like, I'm halfway there. You know, you don't know, right? You don't know that you may meet a,

partner in two years, but you can't really know for sure. So I think they worry that ultimately they're not going to get there. And it's interesting because I think that at the root of that is again, that uncertainty, that instability of like it just feels uncomfortable to not know, to not like in that lack of knowing, it's like such a capacity to catastrophize. I think when you don't have all the information, I know you talk about this. and your new book. Like there's such an opportunity there to make up your own answers, to feel like everything that could go wrong will go wrong

because you haven't seen the alternative yet, because you have no real conception of what it will mean to meet the love of your life, maybe tomorrow, to one day wake up and be in your own home and be super happy and not be dealing with work drama, friend drama, anything like that. And I just feel like how do we become comfortable with the in between, with the period between kind of dreaming and realizing where there is a lot of,

yeah, just unknown, a lot of blank spaces for us to seemingly feel. Yeah, well, I love it that you mentioned catastrophic thinking. So as you mentioned, I have a new book out. Most people who are listening to your podcast have probably read The Defining Decade. I've got a new one coming out called the 20-something treatment. And it's really age-specific mental health. It's like personalized medicine, 20-something mental health. And one thing I address is it's been a chapter called How to Think, but it's really about catastrophic thinking.

So when you're faced with uncertainty, the brain's number one go-to is catastrophic thinking. And it's really similar to the brain interpreting uncertainty as danger, right? It's like, oh, my gosh, I'm never going to be happy. I'm never going to find anyone. I'm never going to make friends. you know, what if I die broken alone, that it's going to catastrophize and imagine the worst. And again, that's your brain, you know, trying to protect you. But it's, you know, that's a lot to, a lot of kind of catastrophizing in a 10-year period in your 20s.

So we really have to work on shifting from that sort of what-if mindset, you know, what if I never figure it out? what if my life goes sideways to what what is or what else and we can talk about that just kind of shifting from fears to facts or from from fears to flexibility so that we can you know not just kind of stay stuck in the fears of what if stuff never works out yeah my can we talk about it because I yeah I read so your team kindly sent me a manuscript of your book and I was I devout it was amazing I was like, oh, great. I feel so lucky. But that was the thing that really stood out to me was this concept of the what is or the

what else because I have not heard of that before. And it does feel like something that is very like, just like one of those strategies where you're like, wow, how come no one ever said this? Like shifting it from like, because I'm such a what if thinker and I'm a catastrophizer. I'm a naturally very anxious person and I always think like, oh, but what if they don't like me? What if everything that I've built gets taken away? What if tomorrow I wake up and every single member of my family has died in a plane accident? Whatever.

It's like always that. And I have found it very hard to break out of that thinking sometime. It feels like once my brain is settled on the worst case scenario, there is nothing to disprove it. So can you explain this what else and what is theory? Yeah, yeah. Actually, I'll use the example. you did it earlier. I mean, you weren't quite catastrophizing,

but you said, I worry that my life is just going to get worse from here. Yeah. You know, when you said that, because I've said, well, the data shows that probably your life's going to get better, but you kind of said,

well, but what if it gets worse? Which is, of course, what, you know, a 20-something brain is going to do. Exactly. I'm just,

I'm way too. Caught you catastrophizing. Yeah. So, so that's your what if. That's the fear. What if? my life actually gets worse instead of better.

I mean, of course, that would be everybody's fear. So shifting to what is is actually kind of what I did with you about that. I'm like, well, I mean, let's look at the facts. Let's look at the data. You actually said you've built a pretty good life now in your 20s, right? Yeah, I know. It's pretty good. I'm pretty happy.

Okay. So the facts are that you have, I don't know all the details of your life and not trying to get you to reveal that to me on the podcast. But it sounds like the facts are you've managed to create something good, even in your 20s, which is very challenging. Is that correct? Yeah. And I just think all those other things like good friends, good family.

I've got a long-term partner that I love. It just feels like I've ticked everything off a little bit. Okay. So the facts are you did all that. So why would you completely like go sideways in your, in your 30s and like lose all the all the sort of the skills and the know-how and the work you put into that why would that just go away it's so interesting because you're saying it to me and I can literally feel like irrational thoughts in my brain not be able to answer that question but I think

the thing I always come back to is this like sense of fate this like I think it's like a huge imposter syndrome thing that I think a lot of us in our 20s have where it's like oh I got all this just because I'm lucky and luck runs out. So you're putting it in some bigger things hands rather than your own and like rather than thinking about your own skills and your own effort and your own labor. Right. So I'm saying I look at your life and a little I know about it so far. And I don't, I mean, my saying about luck is a wise man makes his own luck. So I would assume that most of what you have, you've worked for a lot of that. And there's probably some luck involved, but probably even more sort of work or intentionality or care in cultivating that. So I would

assume for the facts, well, you're just going to, you're not going to know less about that in your 30s. You would keep doing that. So that's kind of shifting from, okay, my brain gets going on the fears, but what if I focus on some facts and I give myself credit for what is, not what if, but what is. The other thing to do, because sometimes people are like, oh, I don't have any facts. I don't know anything. You know, this could go either way. And so you think about the what else.

So what else could I tell myself besides everything is going to go sideways? My life's going to get worse. I mean, that's, well, that's one possibility. What's another possibility? What else could you be saying? Yeah, it's interesting because it's like it could stay the same in which case. speaking from experience, that would be great or it could get better. And I feel like that's a really nice thought to have. Right. So just letting your brain kind of have these, play with these different

possibilities of, okay, you've got your what-ifs, but you've also got your what-is and you've got your what-else. None of that, like I know, I've, you know, this is not my first rodeo talking to a 20-something. No way. I know none of that gets rid of the what-if, but, it does make your brain hold some other possibilities besides like I am sure my life is going to be awful. And like we can't, you know, sometimes clients will say, well, help me stop doing that. I want to stop doing that. You will never stop doing that because evolutionarily your brain needs to go like, oh my gosh, what if? I mean, it needs to do that.

But I will say as you get older and you have a more grounded sense of the what is, it does it, but then you're like, oh, whatever, it's fine, or I'll figure it out, or I've figured this out five times before, I can figure it out another couple of times. Like, that actually does happen. You have more what is. I really like hearing that. I honestly, what you said then, the last point you made of, you figure this out a couple of, like, five or six of whatever, 12 times.

You've already, you've done it before, that it just becomes, like, such a skill set rather than feeling like in our 20s, you know, so many of the big problems of like oh my god I didn't pay my taxes or like I don't know what I'm doing I just got fired or somebody just broke up with me or oh a friend of mine like I'm feeling lonely that's a big one like I'm feeling lonely I'm always going to feel this way um it's like the first time that we've really truly experienced that especially because of how many major you know you talked about adult adult development uh and part of that is like social context right you know you you shift from a very structured schooling environment to being on your own and people moving everywhere

and work kind of being the center of your life. And I remember to include like a personal story about this, I used to have such a problem with loneliness when I was in my early 20s when I was younger. And any time I felt lonely, I was like, oh my God, this feeling is never going to go away. This is my life now. I'm a lonely person. And it was only until, probably a few months ago and I was traveling and I was like, oh my God, it happens every time I'm away from home. I'm like, I'm a lonely person. This feeling is never going to go away that I went back and was like looking through old journals of mine being like, this is a pretty routine experience for me at this point. Like this is like on a regular cycle. This is like every six months I'm having this feeling, maybe I should learn that actually it does go away. So I really like that.

What else? And then also what is? Like I do have the skill. kind of mentality. Yes. And, you know, I mean, you said a lot of really important things in there. One is what you were talking about. There are just so many firsts in your 20s. You don't have a lot of what is or data points or, you know, maybe you can draw back on, well, I got through this at, you know, in school or at camp or in sports or whatever. But, you know, there's so many first. I think people feel like the first time they get laid off, you know, their lives are over. But, you know, after, well, here's a factoid for you. Your average 20-something's going to have nine jobs by the age of 35. So by the time you're on job, you know, three or four or six, you realize, okay, whatever, I'll get another job.

I mean, you know, that's just, that's what will happen. Or after you've had your heartbroken three times, it still hurts because that's how the attachment system works, but you know you will survive it. And, you know, maybe even feel better and maybe even meet someone who's better suited for you. So you have more data points as you go along, and that's just one thing that's really hard in your 20s. It's part of the uncertainty is there aren't a lot of data points to say, I see what this is. I've gotten through it before. I'll get through it again. But you're accruing those now.

So that's sort of what's happening with all these firsts and seconds and thirds as your brain is learning. Okay, I can do this. I'm literally listening to what you were just saying, being like, oh, my God, yeah, that's checking a lot of boxes in my brain. especially the heartbreak one as well. Like love, you just feel it so deeply. I'm sure, I don't know, I'm not in my 30s or 40s, but in your 20s. I remember, like, it's not that the breakups have gotten easier. It's just that there is a sense of like that they will end in a way.

It's like, okay, you know, I've done this before. I kind of have like a toolkit almost of like this is how long this is probably going to last. these this is the first month this is the second month this is month six like this is this is a routine now whereas i think especially like when i was like 20 or 21 like that was world ending to me um oh yeah of course it's been there yeah been there done that i mean it's it's i've been there done that more than once but um you know i think many 20-somethings don't know that breakups are the kind of leading precursor to feeling depressed in your 20s. I mean, as would make perfect sense or, you know, like a big attachment loss. And so people often feel

quite depressed after a breakup. And, you know, one thing I work with my clients on is that it does not mean that you're abnormal or disordered or sick. It actually means your your heart is working. Your attachment system is working. If you really cared about someone and really love someone, and maybe even envisioned a future with them, you should be super sad if it doesn't work out. And I don't expect that to lift in two weeks. I would be kind of worried if somebody was like, whatever, easy come, easy go after, you know, what felt like a significant relationship to them. So, you know, some of the struggles that 20-somethings go through, well, actually a lot of them,

anxiety at work or sadness after a breakup, this is normal developmental struggle. that actually shows that your brain and your heart are working properly. They're not indications that there's something wrong with you. If you're feeling stressed or anxious about work or you're feeling sad about a breakup, that's what I would expect and hope in a lot of ways. So actually, I want to focus on this a little bit more because there's an example you give in the book. And I'm, am I going to spoil it? I don't know, maybe it's up to you whether.

No, no, go for it. Go for it. And I've got her name, or their name. But because of a breakup, she was like, oh, I have an insecure attachment style. I have a disorganized attachment style. Now, that is something that I see all the time. And, you know, I think it's like 65, 70% of us have a secure attachment style. But by the way that we are diagnosing ourselves using TikTok videos and social media,

you would think that all of us are like anxious, avoid it. Right. Anxious ambivalent. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Because it's one of my little secret like pet peeves when it comes to like online psychology. That you mean other people diagnosing themselves with that specifically? Yeah. Or having people be like, you're, you have an insecure attachment style.

Yeah. It's having a moment. Yeah. So I'll have people come in new clients and they'll say, you know, I'm getting no of them. Well, I have an insecure attachment style. I'm like, oh, I don't know. Yeah. I'm not so sure.

So there's a big difference between having an anxious attachment style and just feeling anxious or having a bit insecure attachment style and just feeling insecure. And I would say that the vast majority of 20-somethings that I work with, they don't have an insecure attachment style. They're in a state of insecurity. So an attachment style is something that you're saying, this is diagnostic and characterological and true of me across all situations, all relationships, all aspects of my life, all ages and stages. No. Like very few 20-somethings of mine would say, yeah, I don't, I'm not

secure with friends. I'm not secure with my family. I'm not secure with anybody, you know, partners, boyfriends, girlfriends. I mean, that's when you have an insecure attachment style. And if it's been that way consistently across time and across situations. Most 20-somethings for reasons we've already gotten into because of all the uncertainty, they're just feeling insecure. You know, they don't know who their friends are. They don't know if somebody likes them. They don't know if this person wants to go out with them. They don't know if this new relationship's going to work or not. That's just insecurity. That's uncertainty. That is not having insecure attachment style. And I don't love for 20-somethings to, you know, diagnose themselves, not just because they're often not accurate, but they can kind of wrap their identities around this sense of abnormality.

Like, see, I have an insecure attachment style. And if only I had a secure attachment style, maybe this relationship would work or someone would want to be with me. And that's usually not the case. It's just normal to feel nervous. worried and anxious about whether a new relationship's going to last or about, you know, whether someone's going to text you back. That's normal. That's not like an abnormal attachment style.

Yeah, I really like hearing that actually because I feel like there's definitely been points in my life where I've thought that that was who I was. And I really understand what you mean whereby we get really invested in these things being who we are, that anything that contradicts that is us. we deny and we suppress when actually it might be like the gateway to a much more open and better life. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter and on my podcast 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers,

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So one of the other big things about our 20s and it's about feeling behind, but it's also about dealing with uncertainty is like how do I know that I'm making the right decisions? I feel like we have so many options of career pathways and people. people we could date and cities we could live in. Something you talk about in the first book, though, that I think really applies here is this concept of sliding versus deciding. Can you talk us through that a little bit more? Yeah. So sliding versus deciding is a concept. I mean, I popularized it putting it in my book, but it's research by Scott Stanley, really about living together, but it could apply to anything. But it's this sense. of like, do we sort of slide into relationships because it happens? It's convenient. It's gradual. We didn't

really think about it. Or do we really actively decide this is the right person for me? I want to make this commitment or this is the right job. I'm going to stay here another year for these very good reasons. And I think a lot of times, you know, with relationships, whether you're living with someone or even at work, people can kind of slide into sticking around in something because they're already there of well it's just easier to stay another year than to imagine starting over again so i'll just do another year and so we can sort of slide into um living with people being in relationships with people longer than maybe we should be staying with job in jobs longer than maybe it's really serving us because it's the sort of the easier path it's just something we can slide into rather than really saying

This is, you know, given all choices, this would be the best one for me. So I guess that leads to my next question is, how do we know which one is the best one for us? Because I feel. Well, that is a good question. I actually think sometimes people slide because they don't want to face the fact that that can't totally be answered. So in my book coming out, you know, any minute, the 20-something treatment, I talk about what are called large. world problems and for large world problems are problems where all the options and the consequences and the outcomes can't be modeled. So like if you know small world problem is you throw dice and you

can you know bet on the chances of getting a three, you know how likely that is, you know, to get it, not get it. You can even, you know, bet some amount to win or lose. Those are small world problems. Large world problems are choosing a city or a partner or a roommate or a college or a job or how many kids to have. I mean, it's all those problems where you can't model all the options. You can't know all the consequences. So you really, you're making a decision amidst uncertainty, not immense, you know, known factors. So, you know, so many people come to me because they want to know, is it right to stay with this person or to break up or should I take this job or should I take that job? And there is no, I mean, we could talk it to death. You can try to,

you know, do an algorithm. You could go see a fortune teller and get your cards read and, you know, but nobody, no one can hack that for you, that it's ultimately really, that's what truly a decision is of, okay, I don't know, I'll never know which one is right or best. So there's not like a right decision. There's just my decisions. So we kind of try to, you know, make the most thoughtful, intentional choice that we can. And then I think you reassess, you know, a year into the job or a year into the relationship and do a real gut check of like, well, how did that choice pan out for me so far? Am I happy, more happy than unhappy? What should I be, you know, kind of paying attention to? And then you decide, well, do I sign up for another

year of this or do I not? That's really interesting. Like you do a gut check. How do you, how do you I like some of those questions you said, like, am I happier than I would be without this person, without this job? Some of the other ways that we can maybe sense dissatisfaction or sense that there might be time to look for something that's better for us. I often ask clients, is there something that you're doing that you hope you're not doing in five years? Or is there something about this relationship that you hope is not the way it is in five years? And if they say yes, then it's like, okay, well, then why are we doing it now? How long are we going to do this now? That usually if people look out five years, like, oh, yeah, definitely don't want to be in this

dead-in relationship in five years. Okay, well, why are we here now and how much longer are we going to hang out? Or same goes for the job. Or, gosh, I hope my boyfriend and I aren't still having conflict about cooking or whatever in five years. Well, then let's fix it this year. I think about that a lot. I'm, I will say, I'm in a great relationship.

There's no, I'm, I've done the questions and they've never, they've always turned in our baby. But I do, in previous relationships, I remember being like, I want to break up with this person, but I don't. But being like, let me just wait six months because I was like delaying the pain. I was delaying the inevitable. And then I had a friend say to me and she was like, well, wouldn't you rather be six months into it? in six months time rather than starting in six months time. She was like, good for her. Yeah, I was like, oh, wow, like you're so, she's like, the time is going to pass anyways.

Like, you're going to get to the point. She's like, you're going to have to break up with this person. It's just whether you start the process now and then in six months time can be like, oh, thank gosh, I've done that already or whether you weigh and you delay it. And it's like, it's emotional procrastination where you understand. That's true. Yeah, it's like you understand that there's going to be a lot of fallout emotionally and mentally from a big decision. So why not just wait?

Why not just make that a future you problem and you don't realize that that future you is going to be there pretty quick. Is you? Is it going to be your present you eventually? Yeah, honestly. And that's like, I feel like it's interesting because I said this to say. I always say this on the show. like you can reverse 100% like the only decisions

you can't reverse the ones that you didn't make. So I think, you know, it's like well I guess having children you can't really reverse that decision but well you can always adopt. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But it's like especially when it comes

to career risks and career risks and wanting to move to a new place wanting to travel you know there is so much regret in inaction, probably more regret than taking action. Because at least again, we're going to return to what you were saying before, like,

when you actually do something about a desire or an urge you have, you're not faced with the what if being, what if I'd done that thing. Right. Right. And you learn, you learn something. But, you know, I think sometimes this isn't exactly what you're talking about, but oftentimes 20-somethings will delay decisions so that they, you know, sort of like keep all their options open so they don't make a decision so nothing is like it's like they think they're stopping time i mean they're not stopping time and not making decisions is a decision so you're deciding you know not to break up with that partner you know you were sort of

not making a decision on it that's a decision you were deciding to sink another six months into a relationship that that you were sort of done with yeah um and your friend was right to say like, shoot, you could be six months through the breakup at this point. So she was definitely right. That's good. And I did stay for another six months, so I probably should have listened to it. But, you know, we live on with it. Absolutely. But I like that idea of like you feel like you're buying yourself time, but like the time is still passing, right? It's still passing. I mean, I think the thing with it's what's so different about being an adult versus sort of being in school is, you know, there's no syllabus.

There's no, I mean, this gets back to am I behind? There's no syllabus. There's no schedule that you have to meet. The grading system is whatever you decide it is. It depends on your value system and what you're trying to achieve, not what other people are saying you should do or what the person sitting next to you is doing. And, you know, that means there aren't any right or wrong answers.

There are just your answers, which seems kind of like a, annoying non-answer, but it's actually really liberating when you really lean into that. I don't have to worry about whether I'm doing it right or wrong or on time or ahead or behind, whatever. None of that really exists. It's just, it's your life, your choices, and you're going to make most of these choices more than once. And I mean, even within one relationship that may last your whole life, every day you're choosing, how is that relationship going to go today or what am I going to work on or what's what of what conversation am I going to have with my partner to make it better that we're constantly able to sort of improve the choices that

we make I like that as well it's like not just a it's not just one decision it's an active choice like throughout your life to be there right to stay there whether that's a relationship a job or city whatever right so I've got one final question for you okay all right I'm ready yeah I don't know That's very anticlimactic of me. Although I do feel like you have a really good answer to this. What do you think is some expectations that we should let go of in our 20s that would make us happier? You know, I feel like you've done a really good job of focusing on that today. I mean, I feel like the biggest expectation that people need to let go of is that their 20s are going to be the best years of their lives.

And we talked about this. but they're probably not going to be. And that's really, really good news. That's a huge bummer of the best years of your lives or your 20s. And then the rest of your life is all downhill. You don't want that. It's not probably going to happen. But, you know, kind of feeling like everything's supposed to be amazing in your 20s

is really sort of a recipe for heartbreak because it's a very challenging time. So I would say that expectation that everything is going to. be great and or you're going to have everything figured out by 30. I talk a lot. I really in both books about there's this cool study. I won't get in the weeds about it, but it says 80% of life's most defining moments take place by age 35. That is true. However, you know, most of those defining moments are, you know, happen in fits and starts. So I actually posted something on my Instagram the other day. It was a picture of me at 35, pregnant with my first child and getting my PhD, my diplomas. And that was 35 and I was joking like, ooh, I got these two in right under the

wire. But when you follow them backwards, both of those projects started earlier. You know, I started studying to get into grad school, you know, in the middle of my 20s. I bumped into my partner for the first time in my mid-20s and then met him again in my late 20s and then we got married after that. So you know, you don't really know like all these defining moments. They're probably going to happen by the time you're 35 and some of them may be happening in small pieces now. You just don't know it. So the idea that everything is going to be done by 30 is ridiculous. Don't stress. But you might have started most of these things. You just don't get to see the fruits of your labor quite yet. Wow. I really like that outlook. And it just makes things that feel like very

exciting and surprising. Yeah. Life is exciting and surprising. And you want, you want, I mean, I want your 20s to be awesome, but I also want your 30s and 40s and 50s to be awesome. And I think if you lay the groundwork for that, then life really does get better. Why would it not? What a positive way to finish. Thank you so much for this little little pleasure. Now, I want to quickly say you have just joined Instagram and everyone I did yeah and you've done your first little like you've dipped

your toes into social media I have I have yeah that's it's funny because I was off social media I mean to be an author and to be sort of out there I was off social media more than you would expect I didn't have an Instagram

I had a very inactive Twitter account that was it whatever, I was just sort of off of it. And I think part of it was, I was focused on writing books. You know, I have clients and, you know, I don't know how you feel, but I think a lot of clients maybe don't want to see, bump into their therapist on social media. Yeah, I know. And have them just giving them the same advice they gave you, like, to everyone. Right, right. So for me, it was more of, you know, I'm going to kind of, you know, lie low and write books.

and try to reach people that way, which is super important to me because, you know, and good therapy is not accessible and affordable, not only to everybody, but really not to most people. So part of writing books is about getting that out there. But anyway, as social media has evolved and as I have been convinced that, hello, that is where people get their education and their information and their news now, then if I want to help people, that's where I need to be also. I know y'all don't want to see me dance or put on makeup or anything like that. I think we want to see anyone do that.

Well, actually, no, that's not true. But, you know, now that it feels like, obviously, this is where a lot of people are getting, you know, good information or they could be getting better information. And so I wanted to be a part of that, of the better information. I really, really like that because I feel like you. you will have a lot to contribute. There's lots of misinformation out there, and it's nice to have people online

who have degrees, have done research on this stuff to really set the facts straight. So where can people follow you? What's your Instagram name? Well, I'm brand news, so please come out in full force because I have like two followers.

But I'm at Dr. Meg Jay on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter. pretty much anywhere where people would be, I'm Dr. Meg Jay is the handle. And I've just recently joined. So there's, you know, some stuff starting to put some videos up. But the idea, especially with the 20-something treatment coming out, is to get the content out. Because like you said, there's a lot of misinformation. And I would love to, you know, kind of get in on that conversation and help people out.

Oh my gosh. Well, I'm super excited. And I'm super excited for people to get their hands on your book. I'm going to leave a pre-order link in the description of this episode and a link to the defining decade. If you haven't read that book and you are a fan of this podcast, what are you doing? They go so hand in hand. It's insane.

Right, exactly. It's funny. I hadn't even read it before I started the podcast and then I started the show and I was like, oh my gosh, like this is so aligned. So I will leave. I love it. Yeah, I will leave a link to both of those. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please.

feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. Share it with a friend if you think that they would enjoy this. They would get something out of this conversation. I definitely did. And if you have an episode suggestion, please feel free to send it to me at That Psychology Podcast and you could follow me at Gemma Speck on Instagram for some more behind-the-scenes content. We will be back next week with another episode. Until then, stay safe and we will see you soon.

2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWA% on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you get your podcasts.

When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say

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84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I mean, it was a wild year.

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