The Psychology of your 20s - 207. How to have better conversations

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

Conversations seem like they should be the easiest thing in the world, but we all know that sometimes that is not the case! Mental distractions, running out of things to talk about, feeling a bit off, all some of the roadblocks we face. In today's episode we break down FIVE tips to have better conversations:  The 2:1 question ratio The fast friends protocol  Story topping and bright siding  The 5 minute urge  The liking gap  Listen now for more so we can all be having better conversations in whatever area of life! Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed, I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this.

He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On The Look Back at it podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Keer Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Ellen's, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through. the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces

consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here. You specifically. No one else. Back for another episode. Maybe it's your first episode. I'm not sure, but welcome. Welcome as we break down the psychology of our 20s. I think, We all know the feeling of having an amazing conversation with a friend, with someone you've just met,

with your partner. You know, the minutes just float by. You feel so aligned and in sync. You're excited. You're like buzzing with this energy. Like someone is kind of like put a mirror in front of us and is reflecting back all of these deep beliefs and funny anecdotes and stories, making us feel seeing and heard, but also being like very entertaining, maybe deep. it is a certain kind of high and one that I want all of us to have more often.

Conversations really unlock some of the best things about us, our capacity to share knowledge and to learn, to be vulnerable, to show deep emotion, to connect, to be persuasive or likable. But whilst talking to others may seem like it should just be like one of the easiest things in the world, that is not always the case. whether you are naturally shy, you're dealing with social anxiety, you've kind of just lost a bit of your spark and simply need a reminder of what connects us to others. Sometimes we do need to be reminded and have a bit of a refresher on what makes a good conversation. I also think listening and communicating is something that we can all get better at. It is such a valuable skill to be able to talk to anyone you meet and not just talk but actually connect, especially in our 20s, there are just so many new people to me and to get to know and the connections that we make now

really influence and change our entire lives. And this is the skill to have of the more. It's so applicable to every area of your life to be a good conversationalist to your dating life, making friends, job interviews, networking. So let's talk about it today. How can we have better conversations? What makes some people so easy to talk to? Why do we click more with them than others and what are their secrets? How can we learn from them? On top of that, what does the psychology and the science really say about good conversations? Is the secret listening? Is it body language? Is it specific questions or pauses?

There are entire careers that have been established on investigating this very question. So I have five tips for you today to have the best connections and conversations you have ever had a bit of a formula for when it's tricky and essentially how we can control, you know, our interactions and the things that we can control about our interactions and our conversations to make them deep and meaningful and amazing. So if you know me, you know I love a big old chat and I am so pumped for this episode and I honestly learnt so much that I can apply to my own lives. So without further ado, let's get into it.

Good conversations don't always come naturally. That is a fact. It's so interesting because we are never taught how to have good conversations. We are just kind of expected to pick it up along the way and get accustomed to the kind of rules of engagement. Make eye contact. Find something we have in common. Don't stray too far from what's relevant.

Small talk first. Sometimes though, something just doesn't click even when we have done it all right. I have even found that with some of my closest and longest friends. There will just be days where it's like trying to fit. a triangle through a circle. That can sometimes cause a spiral. You know, this whole line of questioning around whether we're actually compatible or even that close or even get along. Because being able to hold an interesting conversation is such a mark of inherent chemistry between two people. What we don't always account for are the mental distractions that we are

each facing. The to-do lists, spiraling off in the back of our minds, the over-stimulation or mental exhaustion that sometimes just makes us poor communicators. So for our first tip, I wanted one that it doesn't really matter what you have going on in the mental background, you can still apply it. Because conversation isn't just about you, it's about the other person. Instead of trying so hard to keep the spark alive by just feeling the silences and just saying more. Tip number one, ask more questions than you answer.

people love talking about themselves, but they love talking about themselves even more when they have something to talk about, when they feel inspired, and when they feel listened to. The easiest way to trigger all three of these things is to simply ask them a really good question. The best communicators and conversationalists are people who understand the two-to-one ratio. For every question that they ask you, ask two of your own, whether that's a follow-up question to a previous thing they've said, or to kind of introduce a brand new topic. I know that sounds quite mathematical and very clinical, but a conversation is very much like a scenic walk, or like a very long drive. The best kinds are the ones with twists and turns,

with new scenery, with little stops along the way, with new environments, and they're also the best when somebody is driving, right? When somebody is guiding you through a conversation, through a new situation, questions are a way to do that. And being intentional and deliberate about how much you are talking versus listening, that is really, really valuable. This is actually called a doorknob for psychologist researching conversations. Basically, you know, a very important part of a conversation is providing somebody with, you know, something that they can grab onto that opens up a new space.

So a good question is the doorknob. And it is essentially, you've planted it there, but it's a way for somebody else to feel like they are really, you know, accepted and guiding this conversation and that it's taking them to a new level. The power of questions might seem quite simple, but at its core, the reason this is so effective comes down to attention. A really great article published by Psychology Today put it really well. attention has its own magic. We as humans crave recognition from others, and there is a lot of experimental evidence that says being ostracized or ignored by others

creates a pain that is every bit as real and intense as physical injury. So to counteract that, we should show people that we want to be interested in us and who we are interested in, that we are paying attention to them. According to social attention holding potential theory, which you should really Google. It's very interesting. This is a theory developed by the British psychologist Paul Gilbert. We often tend to compete with each other to have people pay attention to us.

When other people take notice, we feel good. We enjoy all kinds of positive feelings, confidence, belonging, acceptance. You want to create those feelings in another person. Knowing that you are being heard by the other person often makes you like them more. That is the principle of reciprocity. And in the study conducted at Harvard in 2017, what this team explored was that when you feel like someone is reciprocating your energy in a conversation, when you apply, the two to one ratio, for every question they ask you, you ask them too. It also actually makes them like you more, which is definitely a perk. So in this study, they had a series of couples participate in a speed dating event,

people that didn't know each other, and they found a really positive correlation between somebody asking more questions and the likelihood of them securing a second date. So it's very easy to see why questions are so charming. They basically demonstrate your, you know, your liking of somebody else, which they are more likely to return, and also your wish to kind of build a mutual connection and understanding of their experiences. But here is the thing. Questions are great and interrogation is not.

That is the rule of thumb there. So on that note, there are some questions that are superior to others. Tip two is to learn what they are and use them more. This is especially important when we're meeting new people, trying to make new friends, new connections. Obviously, there are some basic kinds of questions that we should learn to avoid, like yes or no questions. Or questions that essentially back people into a corner and make them do all the little. legwork. But even deeper than that, researchers have actually investigated what questions are best to ask somebody new. And this list is a bit strange, but it includes questions like,

what are you feeling grateful for at the moment? What's a big dream for the future that you have? If you could change anything about how you were raised, what would it be? And even stranger ones, like, if you could wake up tomorrow and have gained one ability, what would you like it to be? Do you have a secret hunch about how you will die? Obviously, you are not going to settle up to somebody at a party that you've never met and ask them, oh yeah, how do you think you're going to die? Car accident or cancer, like that's crazy. But these questions are part of what is known as the fast friends protocol or procedure,

which is essentially a series of questions you can find online that move from fairly basic to really personal. And the hypothesis is, any two strangers could ask each other these questions and form a close friendship. You may be familiar with some of these questions if you have heard about the 36 questions to fall in love, because they are essentially the same thing. And the creator of these questions, Dr. Aran and his wife, tested these questions in a lab to determine which were most effective and why. So they got two people who had never met in a room and they had them answer a series of questions. One series of questions imitated small talk.

you know, where did you go to high school? What did you do on the weekend? Do you have any pets? And the other series of questions are the 36 questions that we now know and love that made that final list. They then followed up with the pairs in each conditions. Seven weeks later, they went to them and they said, so did you end up wanting to be friends with that person? Did you end up forming a relationship, forming your friendship? What was amazing was that, you know, this study was in the 90s.

this was pre-social media. These people had to really work pretty hard to find their partner. And over 50% of those who were in that full disclosure group who had the 36 questions had formed such a connection and a bond during that period that they had eventually actually made contact or become friends. 50% of them. And these people had never met before. And that was how this list was made.

The reason why the researchers found these people, questions so effective is because they all contained three important elements. They were surprising, they were personal and they weren't something that we immediately had the answer to. So compare these two questions to see this for yourself. How was your day versus tell me about something excited that happened to you? Which of these are you immediately going to be more excited to answer? Also note that we are basically asking the same thing. You could give the same answer to both of those questions, but one of them is more inviting. So be more creative with your questions, be curious, search for what you actually want to know more about, or even better,

what you can notice the other person really wants to discuss. Often they'll give us clues by returning to that point or that topic again and again, show that other person that you care, don't ask more questions, ask better questions. All right, let's move on to tip three. Number three, actually probably my favorite tip, stop story topping and bright siding. So I picked up this tip from an amazing TED Talk by Celeste Headley that is very aptly titled Ten Ways to Have a Better Conversation. It's a must listen if you want even more tips after this. But she said something really profound in this TED talk. It's only natural to want to share more about ourselves because that is where we think we find a spark or something meaningful and mutual.

But the worst way we can do that is by thinking about a conversation is competition. Hearing someone's story about their breakup or their promotion or their unfortunate commute and coming back with our own story that has five times the amount of plot twists and surprise turns. It is never the same. Your situation is always going to be different and it doesn't make them feel heard. It's not about you. Don't take that moment. Conversations are not a promotional opportunity.

Again, sometimes it is our way of relating to others. I think people with ADHD, for example, this can be especially difficult because oversharing and relating something to somebody else's experiences is sometimes a technique or a different way of expressing empathy, right? Especially for people with ADHD or autism. It's their way of saying, I see your experiences so much so, and I'm so appreciative of them, that I took the time to relate it to my own experiences. and now we have something in common.

And, you know, that's a nice thing. But I think realizing that maybe that's not how they interpret that is important. And just provide a caveat. Before you jump into your own story, say something like, oh, you know, I know it's not the same. I've kind of been there, but in a different way. Oh, wow, that's a really interesting story. It reminds me of this.

It's not as bad as what happened to you, of course. You know, just really showing them that you're not trying to want up them. You're trying to relate to them. And kind of finishing your story with a question means that, you know, it's not about you trying to one-up them. It's about you trying to extend and continue the conversation rather than cut it off. This doesn't mean that you don't contribute and build on a conversation or try and find some mutual ground, just that you recognize how you can do that in ways that still let the other person feel seen and heard. The same goes for bright siding.

So this is a term that was created by an amazing. amazing author called Barbara Enreach, who talks about how when she was diagnosed with cancer, everybody kind of approached her with what she called in her words, reckless optimism, right? She had cancer. She was in hospital and they would be, they would ask about her day and she would say it was terrible. It sucked. And they'd be like, well, you know, on the bright side, X, Y, Z. Well, think about it this way. Again, it's a natural inclination for someone to tell you how awful their day was and for you to want to encourage them or lift their mood. Sometimes it is simply an emotional reflex, a form of empathy.

But you know what? It's not always helpful. And it really shuts things off immediately. It's just, you know, just by our best intentions, even if things are awkward, it can come off as you wanting to move on and ignore their obvious attempt to talk about something that is vulnerable or deeper. There is nothing wrong with just saying, that is really awful, how are you feeling now?

Or, well, that really sucks what happened after that and letting them get back to the positive side of things if they want to. Letting people feel shit sometimes and not needing to be their therapist or their hype man is also a really incredibly powerful way to feel closer because emotional acknowledgement and respect is such a significant form of platonic and even romantic intimacy.

Like, yes, we feel safe enough around each other that you can let me pick behind the curtain, that you invited me in. You don't always have to be on. You don't always have to be happy and I'm still going to be there for that. And we can still have a conversation that isn't necessarily cheery and surface level. Okay. So a quick refresh of what we've spoken about so far. Number one, ask more questions for every one question ask two.

But number two, not all questions are made equal. so focus on those that are surprising, personal and different. And number three, no bright siding or story topping if you can help it. I have two more tips for you. Of course, we have to talk about technology somewhere in this episode and the impact that our phones have on our conversations, but also how your confidence in part determines conversational success. The energy that you put out is what you receive back.

So we are going to talk about that. And so much more after this short break. You know that feeling when you're telling the story that you've kind of been waiting to tell all day, you literally can't keep it in and you're midway through you're talking to like a group of three or four people and like half of them suddenly turn away and start talking to somebody else or go on their phones? It immediately makes you feel like you should be quiet and no one wants to listen to you. No one likes to feel that way.

No one likes to have somebody else's lack of engagement shoved in their face. And our biggest culprit in these situations is our phones. So number four, our rule for better conversations, when you get the urge to pick up your phone, ignore it for just another five minutes, and spend that time being really focused on what your friend, your boyfriend, your girlfriend, your new acquaintance is saying. It doesn't mean that you can't grab your phone in five minutes,

minutes if somebody has emailed you, but ignore that initial urge. And often what you will find is that you quickly become re-engaged in the conversation pretty quickly when you put technology off limits for just a brief moment. You know, let's be honest, there is a difference between in-person and online conversing. One of them is definitely more fulfilling than the other one. Anyone who has ever, for example, used a dating app or been long distance with their partner will confirm that for you, in-person conversations, Trump. And they have a really really, extraordinary power to excite our brains, especially when they are face-to-face, because our, you know, our brain is so socially wired. And so our neurons are very sensitive to face-to-face engagement.

When somebody is standing in front of us, making eye contact, showing positive non-verbal cues, that they are interested, that they are listening, this rapidly activates reward systems in our brains. But our phones can break that trance and they pull us away with their kind of like, a lure of instant gratification and many of their addictive properties. But, you know, not only is it not a good habit to get into, to not always fulfill the urge to grab your phone, it also just immediately cuts off the kind of connection that you're building with somebody. It immediately brick walls and stone walls them. That little dopamine hit that you're getting from your phone is, I just think, not worth it. And it sounds so simple. It probably doesn't.

doesn't even need mentioning, but your phone can wait when you're having a good conversation. You know, that TikTok notification, that like new Instagram follow, whatever it is. It's still going to be there in two, three, five minutes when this person has been able to finish their train of thought, when there is a natural pause, when they finished responding to your question. And you might even find that once you fight that urge, remember, it's only five minutes, there's actually a whole new, deeper plane of conversation that opens up in front of you. You know, the other thing that I want to say on this, why I'm like such a big believer in

like putting your phone away when you're really wanting to connect with somebody, is that it really does teach us the distinction between the long-term pleasure and enjoyment of a good conversation versus the instant gratification of our screens. I think fighting the impulse to grab our phones also teaches us a valuable difference between the kind of value and satisfaction we get from those two different forms of communication. You know, yeah, a deeply engaging chat can sometimes feel a little bit arduous or tricky in the moment if you're maybe running out of things to say or you feel stuck. But choosing to push through that and find common ground or just sit with each other often leaves

us with a greater sense of comfort in the long term compared to the dopamine, the tiny spike, or hit of serotonin that our brains are going to give us. It's like the impact of eating healthy versus like the yumminess of a chocolate bar that's going to make us crash later on. So if you are truly committed to having better conversations, put your phone in your bag, put it in a different room. Sometimes me and my boyfriend do this thing called phone-free evenings because, you know, we've noticed that it's normally at crucial moments that we feel the need to pull out our phones. It's when we've hit a lull and we should be pushing forward. it's when the other person is expressing something about their day and just needs to rant. And the other one sees it as an opportunity to kind of scroll Instagram or whatever.

You know, no, silence. Them having a long, you know, rant or vent is not an invitation for you to do your own thing. It is an invitation to really listen. One final tip. Tip five, here we go. This one is uniquely about us and only us. Let go of worrying about how you are coming across. A lot of us spend a lot of time evaluating ourselves or thinking about what this other person is thinking whilst we're conversing.

And in general, this really interferes with connecting with others because the focus is on something completely unrelated to the topic at hand. It also creates some of those awkward moments where you're so busy picking yourself apart, scrutinizing what you're wearing or your facial expression, whether you're engaged or not, you actually end up missing. what they're saying and then they turn to ask you a question and you just go blank. I've had that happen before. There's nothing worse. Honestly, we're probably just concerned with how we're coming off, that we're getting two in our own heads that actually their opinion might change of us because we are so kind of detached. We kind of our eyes glaze over. Here's an interesting psychological phenomenon for you that may set you at ease and it's called the liking gap. The liking gap basically says

that people like us a lot more than we think they do. When we first meet someone, we tend to assume the worst. But in this research paper published in 2018 out of Cornell University, when researchers put two people together to chat and then afterwards got them to rate how they felt about themselves in that conversation, how they thought the other person thought about them and how they thought about the other person, they tended to rate us higher and themselves lower. But we were doing the same thing, right?

The other person was doing the exact same thing. Nearly everyone was thinking, yeah, I'm coming off super weird in this conversation, but they're doing great. So the irony there is definitely not lost on us. The evidence really showed you're doing better than you think. You're actually pretty darn good at making a great first impression. Research aside, when you find yourself getting into that self-analysis paralysis,

I always say it can feel like you're at the back of your brain when you want to be right at the front, right? Like you want to be really present. You want to put all that energy into that other person. And sometimes we can't help it. If you, you know, really want to impress this person or you're battling a moment of social anxiety, it can just come over us. But remember, confidence is the best costume.

Genuinely, if you needed the reminder, no one can read your mind. No one can see your anxious thoughts. if you just project utmost confidence in yourself and put all the intention and focus back on them. I've talked about this tip so many times that if you are a regular, you won't be new to this. But the thing that has helped me more than anything else, in these times in particular when I'm feeling super anxious about what somebody else is thinking, is picturing this big golden orb in my chest. And this orb, this golden bubble, makes me magnetic. and it makes me alluring and confident to anyone that it touches.

And with each breath, the orb just gets bigger and bigger before it begins to surround and encircle everyone around me, including the person I'm talking to. And honestly, it works every time. People shift and respond to how you are feeling about yourself. And if you have a mindset and an attitude of self-assurance, an interest and calm, that is what they will see. they will see what you decide to show them.

So take a deep breath for a second. Activate your orb and just remember, thinking about others' perceptions of you in a conversation is counterproductive. If you want other people to like you, to respect you, to value you, really listening to what they have to say and building a connection through attention is so much more powerful than, you know, anything else that you can do, than any witty story, than any analysis.

of all your small behaviors and actions. Some final lightning round tips for you guys to have better conversations. Don't be afraid of silence. Good conversations also need a break just like us. Mirror body language. This is scientifically proven as a way of showing empathy because mimicking how somebody is sitting or physically reacting to us, signals their mirror neurons and makes them feel more connected to us.

Relax your face. pull up your chin, open your eyes. This is also a way to show attention and intrigue through facial expressions and body language. And don't go all in too soon. Don't try and create artificial intimacy because you think that that might make you closer, quicker. Sometimes it backfires so people feel overwhelmed. So approach from a slow burn perspective. You don't have to play all your cards now. You do have time. You'll get to know them more later on. Just take it slow. And finally, if the conversation is dying out, let it, it's okay, conversations are like dating. Sometimes they're not all going to be the one.

So it's okay to step back, excuse yourself to the bathroom and start again with somebody else. I really hope that you enjoyed this episode. I hope that you got something out of it, whether it was cool scientific fact or a tip or just a boosting confidence. I really enjoyed speaking about this. I love talking to people. Hopefully you can apply these tips in your own life. And if there is somebody that you think needs to hear this episode, please feel free to share it with them.

Or leave a five-star review, wherever you are listening right now. It only takes a few seconds, and it really, really helps the show to grow, and I just really appreciate it. If you have an episode suggestion, the easiest way to let us know is to just DM me on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast. And if you want to see behind the scenes, you can follow me at Gemma Spag. And until next time, stay safe. Be kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk soon.

2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side. a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%.

That's TWO% on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild... It was a wild...

Wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be.

be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men. who'd been through the same thing. Greg Alesspian. Michael Ranjini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.