The Psychology of your 20s - 214. The secret to love? Go SLOW ft. Therapist Moe Ari Brown

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

We all want long lasting, passionate, meaningful love and in our 20s it can hard to figure out exactly how to find that. With so many 'rules' around what to do, pacing, when to become exclusive, when to say 'I love you', when to move in together, it seems the secret is to go slow and build emotional intimacy. In other words, embrace the power of the slow burn, the 'slowmance' and low pressure beginnings.  In this episode we are joined by Hinge's Love & Connection Expert, Moe Ari Brown as they discuss how to slow down and properly build a foundation for sustainable love, why we can often be overwhelmed by the need to speed things up and jump right in, ignoring intuition out of our fear of rejection, and where that can lead us. That and so (SO) much more. Listen now!  Follow Moe here: @loveoutproud View the new Hinge report: https://hinge.co/press/2024-GenZ-Report Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast here: @thatpsychologypodcast   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we break down the psychology of your 20s and back for another dating episode. I think we all kind of want to know the secret to love, right? The secret not just to finding our person, but also making it last and making the relationship healthy and sustainable. and fulfilling for not just the next few months, but hopefully the next few years, maybe our entire lives. There are a lot of different dating tips, dating advice out there around how exactly to do that. But what I found is that if you really want true long-lasting love, if you want to find somebody in your 20s, in your 30s, whenever you are ready, instead of just rushing into any connection that passes you by, instead of really getting swept up in big romances and big love affairs that burn very, very bright,

go slow, approach love, approach dating, any of those endeavors as kind of like a scenic drive. You're getting to know them, you're not rushing into things. It is to be, you know, smooth and easy and carefree and fun. And I think that, you know, amongst all the noise and all the dating advice, maybe what we really need is more emotional vulnerability and emotional intimacy, and that definitely comes with time. So today we are going to be talking about just that this approach to dating, the slow manse, the slow burn, low pressure first dates, all of those things. And we are also going to bring on an incredible guest, somebody who knows so much more about

this than I do, and can provide us some insight. Without further ado, let's get into it. Today we have on the wonderful Mo. They are a licensed marriage and family therapist and the love and connection expert at Hinge to talk about this amazing topic. Can you introduce yourself in a bit of your work? Yay, thank you. That was a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much for having me.

I am, well, you said I am. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and the love and connection expert at Hinge. Over the past decade, I've been working with individuals. families, couples, on relationships. So relationships has been my focus of my work. And that spans the life journey. It spans a variety of life experiences. I identify as non-binary transgender.

So I am a part of the LGBTQI plus community. I use they, them, or he, him pronouns. And yeah, I am excited about all of the work I've been doing at Hinge. Basically, what I'm doing at Hinge is pairing all of that experience as a therapist. And I am joining that with Hinges, data-backed insights around dating and relationships to offer Dator's valuable advice on and off of the app about connection and creating meaningful partnership.

You want to know something interesting? I didn't even know. I don't think I even told you this. I actually met my partner on Hinejave. inch. Wow. So I'm really excited to like get into this because I honestly didn't even, of course I knew how we met, but I hadn't even like clock that there would be that late until just that. So I'm excited to talk about this as well and not just obviously like you you just have this wealth of knowledge from having literal access to our dating data, which is like insane. But also this concept that you talk about a lot of the slow burn and slowmance, which I think is wonderful. Let's actually. address the Hinge's new data report firstly because I get so many questions from people in their 20s being like, what is the correct way to be dating right now? Am I doing this right? Like I want to find the love of my life or I want something more casual and it feels like I just can't

crack the code. So can you explain some of the key findings from this report? Absolutely. I am excited to hear more about how you and your partner made. And so we released very recently our new dating report called the LGBTQI plus date report that stands for data advice, trends, and expertise. And inside of that report, we surveyed many queer daters on our app. And we found that 76% of queer hinge daters say that they wish that they had more positive, healthy examples of relationships when they were growing up. And so we know that there are often these gaps in representation for the queer community. So we're hoping to fill some of that space with more information, support, celebration of queer daters.

And so I'm really honored to be in this role where I get to take part in that. The number one topic that we found that queer hinged daters want to learn more about is emotional intimacy. So when we think about the foundation of relationship and building long-term, connections, I often think, especially as a therapist, emotional intimacy is central to that. 50% of queer-haged data said that they want to learn how to build trust. And so these core topics, emotional intimacy, trust, not throw in communication, collaboration, all of these things support the foundational relationships. And they're essential to what we're calling at Hinge

Slomance. And I'm happy to get even more into that. Yeah. Well, so I want to focus on this first thing. that you said, which is that so many people want more emotional intimacy. And I do feel like the nature of dating in our 20s sometimes, like before I met my partner, it definitely felt like this is a transaction. And especially like I was on the apps. And I think I got kind of very cynical about it for a while, quite cynical because I was like, everything just feels like there is either I want for like something physical immediately or pretty quickly or it's like the same conversations again and again and again that never let go much deeper. And I also think that the reason we kind of hold back emotionally sometimes when we are in that environment is because we have so many like

options, right? And we don't want to get vulnerable with the wrong person. Does that like concern you at all, like what capacity to build long-term relationships? That's a really, really good question. Yeah. What I'm hearing you saying is that there are all of these different worries or challenges that get in the way of us making meaningful connections very early on. So in that, first I was holding so much empathy and space as a therapist, and I hope energetically you felt that.

I know I really did. I feel like, yeah. I think your story and what you're saying relates to how many people are feeling or many of their, many people's experiences. Many people are coming to the table with worries about whether or not they'll be received in a relationship or that someone will like them back. And so I think a lot of what prevents us from showing up authentically, being vulnerable, leaning in, having the seemingly challenging conversations is this desire to be received well. So if we're worried that we'll be rejected, we'll often just prevent ourselves from leaning in. So my advice would be for daters to become really intimately aware of that voice that is creating these narratives inside of us. It's often in our voice.

But the narrative itself is important because if we're not aware that we're telling ourselves, you're not enough or that we're not enough or that we're, that we're afraid that we won't be enough or that we're afraid that we'll be rejected, like that time we were rejected at high school or whatever the narrative is, then we can't go about changing it. So I often take a narrative approach as a therapist, meaning that I work on shifting the stories that we tell ourselves that often form limiting beliefs that keep us from our goals. And so the first step in that narrative therapy approach is to really

get clear on what the narratives are. So that's the first step. And I want that to be people's homework. I don't want you to do anything beyond that. Just like focus on becoming aware of what those narratives are that are preventing vulnerability. And I think when we talk about dating in this day age, just dating in general, sometimes we do mask our emotional intimacy or mask our need for emotional intimacy with physicality. Right? It's like, okay, I can. speed up this relationship physically and it feels exciting and it feels new without ever actually having to connect with this person on a deeper level. And I think that's kind of part of our inclination to just dive straight in to a new relationship. Are you kind of, have you seen that

yourself? Like the need to, not to say that like take your, take your time, like do whatever you want. It's your body. It's your choice. But sometimes like, and I will say I noticed this in myself when I was dating it's like okay I don't want to be rejected by you secondly I don't want to get hurt by you and like show myself show myself as a vulnerable individual so if we just like speed up this relationship and just like get straight to the point like I'll never have to get hurt is that something that you've seen absolutely I think what you're getting at is this inclination we have to jump into relationships when we're feeling like someone likes us back. That's how I categorize it.

And I like to break this down a bit because I think that that's one reason why that's happening. And then I think that there are two other very common reasons why that's occurring. So I guess follow me, if you will, the first one being like, it feels good to be liked back. And I don't know how many people listening to the show can remember Teddy Pendergrass. if you even know who that is. If you do, you probably have baby boomer parents like I do.

But he has this show that's, I'm sorry, he has this song that's called When Somebody Loves You Back. And it's one of my favorite old school songs. But the line goes, it feels good loving somebody when somebody loves you back. And it's just so smooth the way he sings it. But here it's accurate. When you like someone, it just feels good. So I think that that first kind of person that we're thinking about here is a person. who desires their affection to be returned. And so they dive in pretty quickly because they

desire that feedback, those signs that they're, that person's into them. And I think what they really want is reciprocity. And some of the ways in which we can slow the relationship down to get that reciprocity is to have those conversations about how the person, the other person feels, initiate those conversations rather than just kind of trying to ride the wave of emotions that kind of takes the relationship at top speed. I think the second kind of person that shows up, in my opinion, is a person that has those fears of rejection that we were talking about. So a person might show up with these fears around rejection, but really what I think they want

is some type of safety or security. And the way that we can slow relationships down for people who are having the security need is to have those initial conversations pretty early on about what. where things are headed. So that means we can maybe initiate a conversation and say, hey, so, you know, at what point in your dating journey do you typically have conversations about what are we? Like when do you have the what are we conversation? It could be very general. I do not suggest saying very early on, what are we? I am saying have a general conversation that can slow things down and make it a co-creation around the relationship future versus leaving that up to chance or

leaving it to being one person's responsibility. And then the third person that I like to think about when I think about rushing in pretty quickly is a person who's just trying to go with the flow. I think go with the flow people in this regard are worried about making things too complicated. And often I think that they have a need around authenticity. They want the other person to be themselves and they want to be received for being themselves. And so by going with the flow, they think they're accomplishing this. I think the risk here is that we can ignore our own authenticity and what we want in terms of pacing and timing because we're afraid to have a

conflict or afraid to speak up. So I typically encourage daters to slow things down with and they're experiencing this by having necessary conversations around the relationship through ease and compassion. If we want there to be ease in the relationship, and that's our primary desire, keep going with the flow in how you're having the conversation. Be compassionate, be easy, be too in the conversation while still being vulnerable and open-hearted.

And I think that accomplishes what we're really trying to get at. So I know I said a lot there, but I hope that everybody has their three people in mind and that they're checking where they are on that in that. You definitely said a lot, but you said a lot that was like all of it was so helpful. And you know what I really resonated with when you were saying that was also like the individual who was anxiously attached, right? When there are signs that someone is pulling away and might be putting distance between you and them for whatever reason. and maybe they are busy at work. Maybe they are trying to protect themselves, trying to, you know, not get hurt.

We tend to become quite clingy. And we tend to like, the more they try and pull away, the more we try and pull them closer, which inevitably ends up kind of backfiring, right? Right? Like it's, I also think that's part of the inclination to really speed up relationships is, I want this person to fall in love with me as soon as possible

so that we're out of this weird, awkward stage where I don't feel like I can trust them, where I don't have a label, where I don't have commitment, and all of those things leave me vulnerable to being hurt. So I think at the end of the day, like, that all of it comes down to, I don't want to be hurt,

I want my needs met, and perhaps I like the feeling of being loved back. And so like, let's get to that point. as soon as possible. And I also liked what you said about having a conversation. So I'll talk about my partner, Tom, in this instance. When we first met, I had just had like a string of, of relationships in which there was no commitment. And we talk about, you know, the slowmance, which we'll get to in a second. And there is a difference between going slow and also having absolutely no idea what is on. Absolutely. You know what I mean? And like the timeline just being like what this neither ends or

begins. So you know what I mean? And I think that when I met him, I was so, um, so aware and so worried about that happening again. And I also kind of knew that if I was to be like, so what are we like within two dates? There was a good chance that he was going to be like, okay, this girl has absolutely no chill and flee, which I totally got. And so I think it was like around our fifth or sixth date. And I actually remember where it was. We were in Bondi in Sydney and we were eating sushi at a sushi train. And instead of asking the question like, what are we?

I simply was like, this is what I'm looking for. And I'm not asking you to tell me what you feel about that. I'm not asking you to give me an answer. I'm just saying like it's up to you. This is, I'm going to give you the full information. I'm looking for something serious. I really like you. I think this is going amazingly well.

And if you don't think that way, if that's like not something that we're on the same page on, maybe like we should rethink. And he didn't give me an answer straight away. And yes, that made me anxious. But he was like, he was like, listen, like I am really up to seeing where this goes. I obviously really like you.

But I don't want to put too much pressure on it right now. Is that okay? Can I think about it? And I was like, yeah, of course you can think about it. And, you know, flash forward, we're still together and like very much in love. So I think that what would you say to people who are like, if I ask too soon, if I want some form of confirmation, if I need some form of confirmation, the relationship might end. What would you say to that? Yeah. Well, one, your story is like very powerful because there, you're. it's the imagery that's coming to mind is the idea that having that conversation didn't create this a period on the relationship. It wasn't like you offered what you want and then you were just done with him because he didn't want the same things. There was like this comma. There's like this

end that's interjected and you keep going with the story and now you all have been together. And so if I'm offering any advice, it's really to do a lot more of what you did, which is to create that space for that conversation, to allow it to be ongoing. It doesn't have to be this one-time thing. I think that's often how it's presented in the world or in movies that you kind of say, what are we? People say, yes or no, and that's it. But it's not a yes or no. It's like more great than that. Like love is more complex than that. I can't really relate to this story. I can relate to the first time I asked my now wife to be my girlfriend.

And she was like, ask me again in the morning. Like she didn't feel like she was, she had clarity in the moment. So she's like, ask me in the morning. And this actually came up again when I asked her to marry me. She was like, yes, but not right now. And I was like kind of devastated in the moment because I had only known it's a yes or a no. And so we went to therapy in one session, the therapist is like, you know, you can just have a long engagement. And that opened my mind to this comma where there was a period. I'm thinking

we're going to have to end our relationship and the therapist is going to tell me, yeah, you know, she's not the one. And now we've been together. Our dating anniversary is going to be 10 years come like October 31st. And so it's been a long time of like commas and ends. And so my advice for anyone around having these conversations is that they really enrich the relationship. They build this really strong foundation for your relationship future. If you lean in, if you allow yourself to be vulnerable, and if you allow yourself to keep having the conversation, because it's not a period. I absolutely adore that.

Like the idea that the timeline needs to be linear and consecutive and like, okay, so we're dating and then you're my girlfriend or my boyfriend or my partner. And then, okay, to his time. And there cannot be any hesitation in that time. And there cannot be any moments of needing to maybe slow things down or to actually think about things. And I'm sure people are listening to this being like, no, you know, if you know, you know. No, I love your earlier example of how there need to be boundaries because you know, there could be scenarios where, you know, there, you said there was no starter, no end. I love it you said that because some relationships can feel like they don't have any time bound.

at all. And I certainly think in those instances it's important to get clear on if you're even working toward the same things, if you even want the same things. But in these, in these scenarios, it's a matter of timing. I think you'll know that by having the conversation. No, exactly. I completely agree. And also, I think that everyone's relationship is different, right? And sometimes I think I'm scared for the people who experience that really fast intensity, like hyper intense early days. And the saying is always like what burns brightest, burns out quickest. I think that's the way to go.

And I think our society has very much sold us this idea of romantic love as being this like, when you know you know thing, you're immediately like, I saw this quote the other day. It's like when you see them in your future, you want the future to start right now. This idea of like passion and intensity and like attraction. And yes, of course I want to move in with you. And of course I want to fall in love and let's have children. But what are the benefits that you have seen? What are the benefits for the longevity and the sustainability and the health of a relationship

from embracing a slowmance from kind of slowing it down, not going with the flow, but just letting, taking the scenic route, let's say it that way. Yeah, it's a beautiful and powerful, poignant question. When we think about longevity and relationships, I really believe that the foundation of relationship is a, it looks a lot like friendship. There's a lot of, there are a lot of those qualities there, this good communication, this intimacy around the emotionality, the safety, the space holding, the empathy,

we could just keep going on and on. That's what we need for our relationships to grow and expand over time. Otherwise, we have relationships that are stagnant, conflictual, and stubborn, not growing, not changing. So when we think about why slowmance is so important, it's because it allows for us to take the time

necessary to build those foundational skills necessary for long-term partnership. we were not born with a manual for how to be the best partner to our partners, let alone like ourselves. We're learning self-love, usually all together collectively. And we were not even born with a manual for that. So we're not, we don't have a manual for how to be the best partner. So we are learning as we grow and these foundational, these foundational things that we're building through slowmance, but through taking our time, through prioritizing humor and building rapport and focusing on levity in the relationship early on,

gives us a nice cushion for all the stuff that life throws at us along the way. Because your partner and you clearly had this foundation for communication really early on in your relationship, you could have that conversation and say, you know what, this is what I want. and you felt comfortable to do so and he felt comfortable being honest. I think that is a show that you all have created this space for integrity in your relationship

and that is really essential for anyone to make it long term. So Slomance really creates the space for us to do that intentional work without being distracted by where we're going to be 20 years from now or getting really deep, really fast. Oh my God.

I absolutely, I'm just like nodding my head to every single thing that you're saying, right? Oh. Yes, that's correct. That's correct. I also think that you kind of want to know that you actually are compatible with them, right? Like that's the other big thing. Like I always say this on the show, but chemistry doesn't equal compatibility. There are so.

Very true. Yeah, there are so many people that of course you're going to have like an amazing spark with. Of course they're going to look like, of course you're going to be attracted to them. but is that the same as if this is what you want being able to build a life with them also like those I don't know about you but those early days in a relationship I still think back on them and think they were so wonderful and having all those yeah having all those firsts and having all those like moments of like exploration and we're getting to know each other and every story he tells you or they tell you is is a new story and it's just like and it's so.

fun and like you go to the movies together and like they like touch your leg for the first time and you're like a teenager again like there's so much beauty and joy in enjoying those moments rather than trying to speed things up like is that something that you found as well oh absolutely there's one there's this dreamy quality to how you're describing it and i love it because i really have found with working with a lot of couples over the years well actually a lot of people in all kinds of relationship configurations that those early memories, those early conversations, like all of that connection you're talking about really do serve as this cushion for the relationship later. So if I imagine me sitting in a room with two people, two other people who are in this constant

conflict in their relationship. And I take a moment, they could have been arguing for 30 minutes in my office. I take a moment and I just ask them to think about why they got together. Like, tell me why you all got together in the first place. I might say something sassy like that to try to change the energy. And usually the thought of why we got together in the first place brings smiles. It brings laughter. It brings joy.

Because quite often people associate so much positivity and warmth with those early relationship beginnings. So when we think about slumance, again, It's important that we're prioritizing, savoring that, capturing as much of that as possible, being present to it, not being distracted, really leaning in with an open heart because that time passes and eventually you get to doing life and all of the other things. And it's just so meaningful to have that saved somewhere in your memory so you can access it when times get hard. That is such a beautiful sentiment.

And you know what? I'm going to steal that advice and use it for everyone who ever comes to me with relationship problems. Like why did you why did you even start dating in the first place? Like why are you together? There's usually a good reason and usually the things that they're complaining about

are things that they loved before or there were things that were there from the beginning but they found some way of empathizing with those things early on that they can access again. Have you ever heard of this theory called Fatal Attraction Theory? I have not heard of the theory.

I've heard of the concept. Tell me more. Okay, so basically this theory, it was proposed by this woman back in like the 90s. And essentially what she says, this woman, I should say, she's a doctor, PhD. So I'm going to check myself there. She's just a girl. No, she's a well-educated lady. And she basically was observing these relationships amongst people that she was seeing on a college campus. And what she was observing was that and amongst her.

own friends and all that. And what she was observing was actually the reason that we end up breaking up with somebody is normally due to something that we first really loved. And it's called the fatal attractor. So, you know, you love that your partner is so like spontaneous and you love that they like, um, are always, you know, surprising you with things and that they really go with the flow and you love that about them, that energy. But then later on, you're like, well, actually, no, I want. So where are we going to dinner tonight? Like, I have work. I need to know the time. And they're like, oh, wherever, like, let's just be spontaneous. It's like, no, this is actually like detrimental to our relationship. Or, you know, you really like the person who is

really into like work and you like that they're so motivated and you like that they're so focused, but actually that ends up meaning that they spend a lot less time with you. And so that's like exactly what I'm hearing in what you're saying is so often. Like, yes, the thing that we often struggle with most later on is something that has always been there. And it's about being like, okay, but there was something in that that that I loved. There was something in that that really drew me to them. And if you don't have that slow start, how are you going to have taken the time to have processed that? You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's so important. I love, thank you for sharing the Fidel Attraction Theory. And I love thinking about this idea of really getting to know someone, getting a full picture of who they are. A lot of times when we're meeting a person, we have a lot of expectations about who they'll be. If people are honest, many people come to relationships with some type of list these days or some type of expectations or desires.

And I think that on the head, that's totally fine. Sometimes where that is difficult is that we'll have these expectations about who a person should be for us or we need them to fit these categories or check these boxes and that sometimes prevents us from actually seeing them for who they are. Even if they match all of the boxes that we want them to check, who are they as like a soul, as an individual as a being? What makes them smile? What makes them sad?

Like we don't know those things usually by just, you know, meeting the qualifications of where they went to school and all of these other things. And so it's really important for us to really look at a person, get to know them in a genuine way and an authentic way. Oh, yeah, again, agree, agree, agree. I'm just full of like positive statements about this. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more,

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So let's move on to something practical because I feel like we've talked a lot about the theory in a lot about like a bit in the clouds a little bit. I love it. Yeah, me too. It's kind of nice. I do appreciate it. But how is it that we can really have a soft start when it feels so unnatural to slow things down? How do we embrace? How do we embrace that need to have a slow burn to go slow?

Yeah. So some of my advice when I'm meeting someone initially, let's say you met them on the hinge. Some of my advice initially is to prioritize humor in those early conversations because our focus early on is connection. We want to, so the first thing I'll say is humor because humor really is disarming. It builds rapport. And rapport is essential for someone to feel comfortable around us, comfortable opening up. Second, I'll say it's important to prioritize sharing your ideals and values with someone early on. People want to have things in common with the people that they're getting to know.

So if you can prioritize sharing those things on your profile or even in your early communication, I think you have a better chance of really one displaying yourself authentically, but also allowing another person to see you early on. And think the third thing that I'd like people to prioritize when, when engaging in a soft start is lightness and levity. Now, I want when you think light or lightness or levity, I want you to think soft for real. Don't think shallow because the goal is still to be deep.

There's nothing wrong with being deep. We don't want to be so deep where we're saying in that initial conversation with someone, why did your last relationship end? We want to still be deep in the, like, in a, you know, seeing you made me really smile today like in a very genuine and vulnerable way so there are ways to be deep that are not deep on the trauma by the end you know it's like deep in a very grounded and present way like i also think it's about steering away from things that you'll get to eventually and yeah spending a lot of time on the things that people kind of

of rush past, right? Like, okay, like, what are your hobbies? You know, like on a first date. People are always like, oh, what are your hobbies? Oh, yeah, I like boxing and I like running. Okay, that's really cool. And what do you do for? And it's like, okay, we speak past that. And if you go, oh my God, so when was your first boxing class? Why do you like that so much? Like, is there something, do you really like expressing yourself physically? That kind of, that feels like a come on, to be honest. But you know what I'm, but you know what I'm. But you know what to be flirty. Yeah. Accidental. And that kind of is. It's like, spend more time getting deep about the things that feel shallow is like what I'm

hearing you saying. The other thing, like, I was reflecting on it. And honestly, I was reflecting on in the sense that I did this wrong. Maybe not wrong, but I definitely made this mistake. Don't sacrifice your independent life too quickly. And don't, don't, I get the feeling of being like, I want to see you every day. I want to, I want to, of course, I want to go on a date with you every night. out of the week. I want you to stay over. But if you're like canceling plans with your friends to do that,

if you're leaving things early to do that, I think what that indicates to me. And I will say, I'm guilty of doing that when I first started dating Tom. I did that all the, not all the time, but there were definitely moments I had to catch myself. And I think what that ends up happening, what ends up occurring as a result of that is that pretty quickly they're everything. They consume all other dimensions of who you are because, you know, your friends are only going to be responsive to you cancelling plans so many times. They're only going to invite you so many times if you ditch them to go and hang out with this person that you met like three weeks ago on a dating out. Right. And so I think that it's about, and I say this all the time, like you,

you can't be a partner without being a person and you have to maintain those like individual parts of yourself. Do you have any other advice on how to do that? in the early days. I think my advice when we're in those early stages is to have fun. I really, I'm stuck on what you're saying, though, because I'm like, yeah, that actually needs to be like number one. Scoot that to the top of the list, not losing yourself in that. It takes time to integrate people into our lives. It takes time for them to become like a steady person in a very intentional and grounded way. So I totally agree. Then I think fun. is really important. So I want to

scoot that up to the top of the list. Remembering to have fun especially when so many people are experiencing burnout or so many people are struggling in relationships, fun can really be

can really infuse the early relationship with the kind of connection that takes it to the next level. Sometimes what we're missing in our connections is fun. We forget that dating, like, yes, it's a big important thing in our life, but it's supposed to be adding to our lives and not taking away. And so this fun piece is important while we're

also being serious. Many of us, I'm sure I would be doing this too, especially after being a therapist so long. And I have moments of being too serious. I would show up, let's say it's me, I would show up to a date and be like, focus on sharing my intentions. But in this very very dry way. Like, this is what I'm looking for. What are you looking for? And I forget to, like, laugh, to joke about things or to people watch with them or talk about something funny I heard. And so, yeah, I'm just a strong believer these days in, like, loosening up and really enjoying the journey. It can feel counter when there are these hurts we experience along the way. I try to experience new relationships of all kinds as new relationships.

And so let them be new. That means let yourself be new and the new connections as well and have fun. And I remember you said something earlier that I loved, which was it should look a lot like a friendship. And like that's a huge part of friendship, right? It's like laughing and having fun with somebody and like experiencing joy and play. playing and like going on an adventure and like just being outdoors of whatever it is is also so important I think the other thing I would say is try and do daytime dates um daytime dates absolutely are you a big proponent of the daytime date I absolutely love that

first of all some people we need to be going to sleep a little earlier uh some of are not getting enough rest. So I, and I am one of those people. Daytime, though, I have so much energy. Like, in the morning, I'm like dancing. I'm like, I'm loose. And so I think what you're getting at for me is like knowing yourself, knowing whether you're a morning person, a night person, and that can change depending on what your workload is or whatever. Go on dates when you can give your best. This is counter, though, I think, to a lot of the relationship conversations that are happening out there where people are like, don't take me on a breakfast date. I know.

But our report actually showed that the number one low pressure date spot for queer hinged daters was a coffee shop. So for queer daters, coffee shops are definitely places for solid connection. And I'm hoping more people, I think that could be for all daters without these kinds of stigmas attached to them. Oh, yeah. And I actually have a friend. her name is Chedera and she talks about this a lot and we definitely disagree on it.

I have a lot of love for her and she's always like, don't take me on a walk. A walk is not a day. Coffee is not a day and I was like, no, I totally get why you're saying that. But this is like when you already kind of know that you like the person. And also like in this economy, dinner and drinks is expensive. It's expensive. You end up being tired and then maybe you have a couple too many, like a few too many drinks, you're a bit drunk, you're a bit tipsy. Like, you're full, you're sleepy. It's like, and like during the daytime, it's like, that's how human hours. That's what I always say to people. Like, that's like the time when you're the most energized. Like, you can go outdoors and you can just like, even if it's wet and cold and rainy

and snowy, like, it creates play within us and it creates connection. But like, maybe I'll get DMs for people being like if somebody asked me how to like if somebody asked me to the park I would be saying absolutely no absolutely no way to that and I get it be safe but it could be a you know a picnic in the park um you know live music in the park maybe we have some qualifiers it could be like pretty cute uh and for anybody that's trying to decenter like maybe not decenter but trying to slow things down when it comes to physical relationships. Maybe they're the person that's often quick to a sexual relationship. I think daytime dates can naturally kind of shift that energy because we're so conditioned to think nighttime is sexy. And so when we go on daytime days, there are often even

time parameters on the days. Like we know we'll be together for a couple of hours and then we'll part ways. And so it kind of helps to put those natural boundaries. is in place if we are trying to be intentional about slowing down the physical connection. Well, there we go. There's the low pressure first date. Low pressure dates. Yeah. And I love what you.

Me too. And I love, like I will say me and Tom, my, like I keep saying Tom and then my partner. Hopefully by now they know his name. But something that was our second date was we went and had a picnic at, um, beautiful. This like beach lookout in the coast, like around the coast. of Australia. And we made it really fun where we were like, each of us has to bring like snacks and some food and a drink and, um, but we were like, it has to be something that we've never tried before. It was like the food that we, what that we bring is something that we've never

had something super strange or different or new. And it was like, okay, so like, yeah, we're outside. We were enjoying the sunshine, but then also like we had this like joint experience pretty early on. That was fun. Again, it was fun. It was like a bit different. And, maybe it's a bit lame to people, but I don't know, it worked for me. I'm still with him. He's like the love of my life. And like we actually got to know each other through those moments, which was really special. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's a beautiful example of thinking creatively about that low pressure day. But I would say like, and I would add that for anybody who's struggling to think that that's a quality day, think about the intention. Like what is it that you want to

what is it that you really want from the date? Sometimes I think people are focused on how much a person spends on the date as a measure of whether or not they're intentional or invested. And I think you can assess that investment in other ways. When you're on that beautiful picnic at this gorgeous beach lookout, how long they're staring into your eyes, how many smiles you exchange, how deeply they listen. send to your heartfelt stories from childhood, that all tells you that person is intentional. And so I want anybody listening to think about measuring this intention in a different way, because I think these early dates that are more low pressure could help us to communicate and engage in a different way.

I think that is like the most beautiful sentiment to finish on. But actually, I do want to ask you why. more question aside from the slow manse, the slow burn, the low pressure first dates, I feel like we've been very much like take it slow and make it last. What would be your other biggest piece of advice for dating in your 20s? Oh, I'm so happy you ask because earlier in the year, Hinge released the Gen Z day report. So if anybody listening has not seen that, I encourage you to go check that out. The Gen Z date report, uh, the Gen Z date report, uh, actually uncovered that 90% of Gen Z hinged daters are actually looking for love, but their collective

worries around rejection were actually getting in the way, preventing them from initiating these really important conversations or even talking to the people that they like. And so my advice for anyone dating in their 20s are these three things. First, embrace cringe mode. So if something feels cringy, if you're worried about rejection, my advice is to embrace. this feeling because it's just telling you that what you're really wanting is connection and we should prioritize what we want over what we don't want. That's how we create what we want. So then the second thing that I encourage you to do is to be upfront in your digital body

language. People in their 20s are way more keenly aware of deciphering, at deciphering text messages, emojis, what people mean when they're not saying anything, what those dots mean when they appear and they go away, all of their things. So we're calling that DBL at Hinge. That stands for digital body language. I encourage people in their 20s to just be very clear about your own DBL, what you're communicating, when you're not actually communicating, what you're communicating with those emojis, all of the things, all the subtle cues that you're sending. because the more clear that you can be, the more of the good vibes that you're sending out to other people.

And then the third thing would be to, I don't want you to be afraid anymore to initiate those conversations around like, what are we? If you're really wanting to know where a relationship is going, somebody has to make that first step. And what we found in the Gen Zee Day report is that people are waiting

for the other person to do it. So we need to go ahead and just make it known that if you make that initiative, very likely there's someone on the other end of that waiting to have had that conversation too. Oh my gosh, absolutely. Spot on. I just want to say thank you again for coming on and for sharing your amazing insights. This was actually just also such a fun conversation. You are so wise. And you just like brought such a fun energy to dating, which sometimes we don't have. You know, sometimes it feels very serious. So, Mo, where can they find you? Where can they follow you? Where can they hear more from you?

Yay. Thank you so much for having me. I can be found on Instagram at Love Out Proud. So check me out at Love Out Proud. I also co-host a podcast with my wife called Be Your Own Love Goals podcast with Moiree and Tiffany. And you can check us out on all the major streaming platforms, but we're also on Instagram at Be Your Own Love Goals. So if you want to check out some cute couples content, you want more lifestyle advice things for me. Please connect with me on social media. I love, you know, connecting with people and I'm looking forward to it. I really hope that they do. And I'm actually really keen to go and listen to your podcasts now.

I feel like I could do some more like wise, fun advice. Well, thank you again to our lovely guest. And as always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give a third. five-star review on Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever you're listening right now, it really helps the show to grow and reach new people. If there was someone who needs advice on slowing things down, maybe poignly, maybe not so poignantly, send them this episode, they might benefit from it. And if you have an episode suggestion, if you maybe disagree with our advice or you agree very highly, please shoot me a message at that psychology podcast. I would love to hear from you.

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