The Psychology of your 20s - 23. Toxic Relationships - Our Experiences ft. Claudia Grenfell-Uijalnd

Episode Date: February 26, 2022

In this episode I bring on Claudia as we discuss our experiences in toxic relationships in our 20’s. This is part one of a two part episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO. percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that doesn't. does not mean that you need to listen to learn the hard way on the aha radio app apple podcast or wherever

you get your podcast hello and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s the podcast where we discuss some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology welcome back to the podcast everyone thank you for joining us again this week we've got a pretty exciting episode going on today and a very special guest welcome Claudia hi Gemma thanks for having me oh that's okay um so how do we know each other before we get into what we're talking about so so well we worked at boost together yeah when we both lived in melbourne yep like like five years ago yeah or five years ago yeah when you were still in high school yeah oh my god I was literally such a baby and you guys really took me under your wing it was so

I was your manager for a bit. Yeah, I know. You were my manager, and I used to always still protein balls. Yeah, I did too. Yeah, yeah. Don't tell our old boss that. Lay, are you listening? Our old boss.

I wonder what he's doing right now. I don't know. Hopefully he's happy. I think his boost juice shut down for the health code violations, most likely. But that's another story. That's another story. But basically, Carter and I knew each other when I was, significantly younger.

You were also same the age of being younger, but I was little and you were a bit older than me. And then I moved to Sydney and we went out for dinner the other night. And as you do, we were like updating each other on

literally four years of our lives. And we started talking about our relationships as you do. And one in particular for you. Yeah. One of my relationship for a few years ago. Yeah.

wasn't healthy to say the least. No. Yeah, I was listening to it in like genuine shock. Generally, yeah. I was speechless. And I was like, you know what? This is like something so prominent, like so common for women, especially in your 20s. Definitely.

Like we were talking about when you don't have boundaries for yourself yet, you don't really know what you want. You're still discovering, dating and everything. Yeah. I also think it's really important because. You don't really know what it's like until you get into something and people don't talk about it enough, I think. So I was like, come on board. Yeah. Let's talk about toxic abusive relationships in our 20s, especially for, like we were saying, we can only really speak to a, like, a female perspective.

Yeah. And we aren't therapists. No. No, we're not. Yeah. So obviously, we both have degrees in psychology. Yeah. And I just finished my honors in psychology last year.

actually my research was in this kind of area as well. Yeah. Similar area. Should I link your thesis? So if you want to read it? Oh, it's not published. Oh, damn. It's so good.

I like, she like sent it to me after dinner and I was like, oh, incredible reading. But yes, so obviously we're not licensed therapists. Yeah. But yes, I do have an honest degree. Yeah. In this area. In this area. So, like, I was reading her thesis and I was like, this is like, you know, I always try

make the episodes like really kind of research-based and I think like my I didn't really want to do this episode I think alone and like not have like someone else to kind of bounce ideas off of or another experience definitely um so this just seemed like the perfect yeah yes to have the perfect time to do it yes so we're going to get into it today talk all about toxic relationships so we've given you the whole story of how this episode came to be um we were having dinner and we were talking about our relationships. And Claudia, would you like to kind of give a bit of, yeah, like that story into what we were talking about.

Yeah, yeah, but I was just telling Gemma, so I moved to Sydney in 2018 for uni. It was my first year of uni. I was living on campus, so like a whole street of houses that were all uni students. And the house next door to mine was like had a house of eight. and there was one of the people living in the house he was an exchange student and you know being the house next door we kind of became friends whatever

hung out a bit I kind of knew what he was like you know you kind of tell I think we'll get into that a bit more later but you know very charming we became friends and because I kind of yeah I rejected him like pretty like at the start yeah yeah like he kind of kind of came on and I was like, no, like I had already dealt with little experiences of just

kind of, you know, crappy dating experiences. So I was like, nah, I'm like here to kind of study and have fun. But because he was my friend, or I considered him a friend at the time, you know, I think he invited me out for breakfast one day, just as friends. So I thought, and it kind of turned, I guess, like more intimate, very fast. And I kind of thought because if we were friends, and he'd actually tried for a few months at this point to kind of get to know me and everything. Like, I obviously found him attractive. I was like, sure, maybe this could be a thing. Like, maybe I judged it too harshly or maybe because he's actually putting an effort.

And yes, he could have that tendencies. But if he really likes me, you know, it kind of was a whole, like, he's going to abandon being a fuck boy for me. Yeah. I can change him. Yeah. I can be the one. I can be the one, you know.

Makes him realize how to treat women. much wanting to be that and so when I kind of had my brain switched kind of to that and very quickly I was kind of in it and I wanted it and I wanted to be that and there was lots of things that happened throughout the year

you know we never made it one of the things was we never established that we were official we never wanted to put a label on it yeah you know so the typical kind of he could still get away with things under the guise of there's no label we're not official you're not my girlfriend.

So, for, you know... But you pretty much are. You know, I considered it. In my head, it very much was. In my head, I wasn't seeing anyone else. I wasn't interested in anyone else. I was committed, like, I would be committed in a normal relationship, and that's what I wanted.

Yeah. But, you know, to him it was fun in games, really. To him, I was... Who knows? Who knows what I was to him? I don't have... I don't know. I probably think he doesn't even know.

He sounds like such a... Yeah. I still don't know to this day, but that's something you have to accept when you get into this. Yeah. but so basically he would kind of spring on every month or a couple of months that he went on a tinder date or he went on other dates for other women and so every time um you know i would hear that and be like obviously that's not okay yeah i am taking this seriously and you're not yeah so i would want to

end it i would want to get out of it and he had this way of making me feel bad for him and this is actually something i only realized very recently i was reading this book that my actually now boyfriend gave me when I finished my thesis, who's a sweetheart. Yeah, he's so lovely. He's lovely. So there's a good ending, everyone, before you hear all this tragic.

Yeah, it's a good ending. I'm in a very healthy relationship now. Yay. Yay. But he gave me, anyways, he gave me this book on kind of sociopaths, basically, which is pretty much who I was dealing with,

unknowingly at the time. And anyway, I was reading this book and one of the things that really stuck out to me, but I didn't really realize, because I still never really fully understood, what kept me in it. I knew it, I knew how bad it was. And there was a lot of things that happened.

There was a lot. Like, there was a lot that happened that were. When you told me, I was like... Downright abusive and unacceptable. Oh, my God, I made me... I was so angry. I was like... Yeah.

And I can only imagine, like, yeah. Anyhow. There was a lot of things. That was a lot of things. So every time, and I kind of wondered to myself even years after, like, still the question lingered, like, how did he keep getting me back? I was ready every single time he said, I went on Tinder date, I had sex with this person. Like, every time I was like, that is it.

We are done, I'm done, I had it all prepared. We would sit down to have a chat and somehow I would end up after that chat, not broken up with him, but back with him. Yeah, and feeling bad for him. And then so when I read this book, they said that the number one thing, they talked to someone who was in jail. It was a known psychopath. It was a psychologist talking to him. They said, what do you most want from someone? and what is it that you look for when choosing kind of victims almost?

And they thought that we're going to say, like, I want power, I want money, it's kind of control, whatever. He said, I want guilt. I want people to feel guilty. Because, you know what? When someone feels guilty, when someone feels sad for someone, all other emotions in a normal functioning human brain, go. Oh, my God. It's that powerful. And that is something that, oh my God, that's exactly what happened.

That's exactly what it did. Because my emotions were so, this is done. Yeah. This is done, clear cut. Like, I'm not stupid. Yeah. I wasn't stupid. I knew damn what was happening.

Yeah. Couldn't understand it. And then I read that and I was like, oh my God. And you feel bad for, if you feel pity for someone. Yeah. If you feel pity and guilty and kind of you have that sadness or pity for someone, you want to kind of then make it better. and you feel bad for them.

You think they are actually a nice person. Yeah. So when they get you, when they, you know, because it was a typical spill of, you know, I'm sorry, I'm shit. Like this was what he kept, you know, saying every time. I'll change. It's a typical I will change.

I'll change. I'm sorry. I've got to work out my shit. I've got a, you know, I've got shit to work on, la la, la, but I will do it. You know, you kind of, you as a normal person, you think they want to work. Yeah.

They do. Because that's what you would do. Because that's what I would do, you know. Yeah. Oh, you see, they're acknowledging the fact that you want to work on it, they want to change, and you feel pity for them. You think, oh, what a sad kind of per-oh, you've had a fucked up childhood.

Oh, you're a bit sad. Oh, especially, you know, he was in a new country by himself. Oh, it is. It's the pity party. And that's what they want. It's the pity party. Yeah. Well, I was like, it's so funny you said that because back when I was like 19,

I was like seeing this person. And it's like, you said that to me and I was just like, oh my God. That's like the exact same thing. Like, he would always like make up. this like really tragic reason why I had to come over and see him and like comfort him and like literally like basically like cuddle him like cuddle him to sleep and then he'd be like like the next morning like oh hey you can leave now yep exactly and I'd be like oh I really thought that I was going to block you and when you feel sad and pity for someone yeah it's insane it's

it is it takes over and it takes and then they're like oh and you feel bad and oh and then the next morning yeah literally same thing happened and it's like oh they'll kick you out yeah I I once had this time when he was like Oh, something really awful has happened to me And it was my birthday And I went over to this person's Like apartment And I was like, is everything okay?

And he's like, no. And he's like telling me this whole story About something tragic. And I was like, okay, like I don't even care It's my birthday. Like I just like, I know I should be shitty at you But like I feel so bad for you. And then he, as soon as I have the opportunity to talk

He goes on his phone And he interrupts me and he goes Oh, someone else is actually coming upstairs. Do you mind just going and waiting in the bathroom? Yeah. Oh my god. And I was like, what? He goes like, just go and wait in the bathroom. Like, my friend is coming upstairs. And it was another girl he was seeing. Yeah. And it was my birthday. And I was sitting in the bathroom. And then I just had this realization. And I was like, what the fuck? Am I doing here? And you do have those realizations. Yeah. Like, like, you're like, what the fuck? Yeah. And like one of the what the

fuck moments, which really should have been the end of the relationship, but for me was after this kind of back and forth of I'm going on Tinder dates and I'm kind of blah, blah, la, but I love you, whatever, bullshit. He had a party at his house, like, well, his housemates had a party, and he was like, to me, oh, I'm going to be late. And I was like, you know, it's your house. Where will you be? He said, again, going on the Tinder date, which was, you know, I'd heard it before.

And at this point, I was just a bit fed up. and I was like, all my friends are coming to this party. So I just said, I'll deal with like this later. But whatever you do, I said in one thing that you do, do not bring her back to this party. Yeah. Just don't do it. Yeah.

Like, I'm there. Yeah, that's like, I'm there. No, even though I didn't even word it like that. See, it's ridiculous. Like, it was like, oh, but my friends, it wasn't even like, I'm there. You owe me this respect. The person you've been seeing. I know.

Anyway, it was, anyway, and he was like, what, do you think I'm stupid? like why would I do that? Of course I wouldn't do that and I was like, well, I've done many stupid things these months like, all right, but he was like adamant. Like, I would not do that. Party happens. All my friends were literally sitting in the lounge room in a circle, all around in a circle.

He walks in the middle of us with this girl. Says hey, just looks, says hey, like so casually, barely acknowledges me. Says hey, and go straight upstairs to have sex with her. um yeah i've heard that before but i still like what the fuck yeah like it's just that was really like that would have hurt so much yeah and obviously there was hurt underneath it but all that came out was fear anger yeah so angry because most of the four months i was just sad i was sad you know every time this happened i'll just cry or go to my friends but this time i

i fucking cracked yeah and i you know everyone looked at me in shock and everyone was kind of like and I didn't know what to do and my friend you know that lived in that same house was like in a room at the time who was right next to his room so I kind of just went upstairs and obviously she hadn't just witnessed what happened

so I went upstairs to tell her in a very you know angry tone you know being like what the fuck like he just did this this and this like oh my god so I was like pacing back and forth kind of just like ranting essentially and she just sat there like watching

this like very you know this is fair and then just like turned to me and was like a little louder Like his room was right next door He was in there Fucking the chick at the time But loud up Loud up

She kept telling me to go louder So I started screaming Yeah Screaming Like fuck you Like fuck you for ever telling me That you love me Fuck you for doing this

Fuck you for this And this Just everything that came out From the past four months For you know Everything And then I end up kicking in these door And like fuck you

Yeah And then walk downstairs And at this point A couple of my other friends arrived Yeah And they're like Hey you know and I was like,

not in a mood to socialise whatsoever. And they're like, what the fuck happened? So I went into the kitchen and signed explaining it to them. Yeah. And then he comes into the kitchen. And so he's facing me and standing behind my friends. I don't see him. I just see him.

And they obviously realize that I'm looking at someone else. So they turn and see it's him. They all could they just kind of leave us in the kitchen? And I just look at him and I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you? I just said, what the fuck is wrong with you? and all he has to say to that was he looks at me looks at my top that I was wearing it was a red top

looks back up at me a little smirk on his face and goes red looks nice on you and walks out that's it that's it after just like shattering my whatever fantasy I'd left of the relationship but still like after pretty much disrespecting me and like the biggest way I think anyone can really disrespect a person.

Oh my God, yeah. Like, literally you said, like, please don't do this. And he literally said, like, this is a boundary. Like, I didn't even dress the fact that he was on a Tinder date for God knows how many time. You went like, don't go on that date. I was like, I'll deal with that later because I was fed up at this point. And I was like, I just want to have fun. Honestly, I can't deal with this again.

And I just said, don't bring her in. Yeah. Just please. If you do anything. If you need to do that. If you need to do that. Go to hers. Yeah.

Honestly, go to hers and we'd do the whole spiel again. Yeah. sleeping with someone and whatever. Yeah. But like, that wasn't the end, was it? No. So, you know, it was a start.

I did block him and cut him off for a couple months, which was I think, you know, it's still big to do them at this point. So, yeah, after that, I, you know, I went back to my house for the rest of the night and didn't engage in any of it. And I did block him on everything. I didn't talk to him for two months. And it was good, you know?

I actually see, well, you know, I seen fine and I was fine because there was still a glimmer of hope and that's the thing. Like it wasn't yes I cut him off and yes I blocked him but I knew it was only because I was waiting for him you know I still wanted him to come to my house and like I'm sorry

beg for me back but realize what he lost you know I cut him off and I wanted him to realize what he had lost so badly yeah and it never happens it never happens I've done that so many times it never happened So obviously of two months of being like, I'm fine and cool and getting on with my life,

but him never, you know, never apologising, I ended up one night, drunk after a party, going back to his and, yeah, pretty much starting it again. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like the second chapter. This was the second chapter. This is the sequel. Yeah.

The sequel to it, which essentially was just him saying that he was going to commit to me this time, which I think you think he did? I don't know at least I didn't know this time the time before he told me

that he was doing these things and this time I wasn't aware of them and I was with him a lot more so I don't think so but again who fucking knows

who fucking knows anyway but because he wasn't obviously doing it as frequently and we were together a lot more it was a lot more covert than

not so overt and kind of like oh I'm just having sex all these women it was this was one the really controlling behaviours came. This scary behaviours, I would say.

It wasn't really scary before. It was like I'm dealing with a really kind of fucked fuck boy. But then it became scary. That was when I was like, I'm in an abusive relationship. It wasn't like I was fucking around with this kind of toxic fuckboy from, you know, on exchange. Ha ha ha ha ha. First year of uni things.

Yeah. This was like real. And that's when I knew I had to actually find, get out. And what was some of the, you don't have to talk about it, but it was like? Um, yeah, so put downs for a lot. Like insults, little insults, I'm very confident in myself as well, and he knew that. And so he tried to get to me anyway. You know, he pinched my stomach one day, like, you need to go for a run.

He said I was an 8 out of 10 because my butt could be better. Like, shit like that, you know, which I actually, I didn't ever get to me those things, because I am really confident and I know I'm attractive, so I was like, fuck you. But, you know, he still wanted to do it, and it's still horrible. What else? Oh, behaviour is like, I wouldn't even know. what I do. Like you don't, you don't. There's no logic to it, but he would go for being

kind of fine, in an all right mood to kind of shutting down, going into his room, not talking to me. The silent treatment really often. Stonewalling, yeah. Stonewalling. Which we talked about in last week. Yeah. He did something really horrible to me and he told me not to tell my friends about what he did. And when I was like, you know, fuck you, my life.

I can do whatever, you know, I told him. all my friends. Yeah, because you would. Because I would, and I wasn't, you know, that afraid of him. Like, I was like, you know, getting there, but I was like, fuck you, I'm telling my friends. And I had really a relationship with my friends. And they still, I hadn't really lied to them much, yeah,

about me being with him. They all knew that I was still with him. But when he found out that I told my friends, oh my God, like, complete, just like, nothing, like, silence. I was, like, walking in the street with him, like, begging him to talk to me. anything.

Like, let's just discuss this, talk through this. Like, a normal, like, people will try to be. Nothing. Looked at me dead in the face when I was, like, fucking begging him in the middle of the street and just kept walking. Nothing. Like, two days. It's, like, so manipulative.

So, just, like... Also, the fact that he's, like, now, like, what the fuck? It's, like, he can do whatever he wants. Like, he can bring back girls to his house and, like, he can, like, do things to you. But as soon as you, like, access to people... I know. You're the baddest.

You stand in your power. Yeah. Then it flies off. And there was also like, so for instance, this is when I started kind of realizing the kind of personality had as well. He told me that he didn't feel love or hate really. He said he kind of never felt much and kind of operate on autopilot. So he literally was like, I don't know how to, like, I don't feel love.

And I was like, sorry, what? Yeah. It was like before I was really like educated myself, you know, on this kind of personality type. And what a so surreopath is. Which is literally the inability to feel love or even anger. Anything, really. It's just kind of... The only thing you feel is self-preservation.

Yeah. So it was shocking to me. I couldn't wrap my head around. I was like, what do you mean you're on autopilot? Is I kind of just float through the motions of life? Like, I will never feel love for you, pretty much. It was like, I can't love you. I never will.

And I never, like, feel this. And I was like, that's... What? Yeah, you were like, I was like, what do you mean? Like, you have to, right? You're a person. Yeah. You have to love someone.

and you have to love something, so I thought. Nope. And so anyway, he never told me, well, he actually did say he was falling in love with me right at the start of the relationship, but anyway. Yeah. Anyway, he was like, you know, I got love for you,

but I'm not in love with you, is what he'd say. And I even just accepted that. I even still just, I honestly like accepted that. I was like, great, that's it. Yeah, and I was like, oh, brilliant. And then one day, he, oh, when I had started it mentally, kind of preparing to break it off when I started mentally kind of detaching myself.

Because at this point you were like quite afraid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At this point, this was like a couple months before I did properly end it. I was starting to mentally prepare myself, you know. You really have to do the mental game, preparing the mental game before you actually do it. You have to really start detaching yourself emotionally. Which is what I started doing. And God, they can fucking sense it.

Really? Instantly. Really. They can read people. and that's why they can read people so well. Just the only things in my behaviour, I wasn't as affected by what he said, I wasn't really bothered by his presence so much.

We're kind of just hanging out and I started being a bit more like my normal self around and not so invested and so worried about what he was doing to me and what he was doing around me. It was kind of very, so I'd detaching. And the second I did that, I knew he could sense it because he then brought me upstairs

and told me he loved me, which is what I'd been hoping for for the whole time, right? Yeah. So me, stupidly. Not stupidly, I shouldn't say I'm stupid, but, you know, sillily, when I started touching, it was only like a tiny bit that I started. So when he said that, bounce right back in. Yeah.

Oh my God, he said he loved me. Oh, my God, finally it worked. I made him love me. Yeah. I made him realize. But obviously, because I'm not stupid, I still did turn around to him and say, you told me three days ago that you cannot love and you will never feel love.

So why are you suddenly, and this was literally, it was three days before that, why are you suddenly telling me that you love me now? Yeah. And he looked at me and said, watch yourself. And he said, don't push it. Oh my God. Oh, my God. Don't push it.

And then ignored me for three days. Literally ignored me for the next three, four days. Yep. ignored me nothing. I literally thought he was like dead or something because he just cut it off. Oh my God. And I was like freaking out.

I was beside myself. I was like, holy fucking shit. Like is he okay? Like I haven't heard from him at all. And he's just probably just like, oh, just. I was so beside myself that my mom and like my friends were like, go to his house. Yeah. Because I even messaged.

And then I messaged his housemate being like, have you seen him? Like, he was like, yeah. He's around. And I was like, right, that's it. Yeah. Went to his house. And, like, beside myself. And he just is, like, coming back from playing basketball and being, like, what are you doing?

And I was like, you, what the fuck? Like, I haven't heard from you. Like, why have you suddenly, like, three days? And he was like, oh, I just needed to have some alone time. Say that. Like, yeah. Like, no. And obviously it wasn't because of that.

Now I realize it was because I questioned him. And when you question, you know, narcissist, so past, whatever you want to call them. Yeah. When you question them on their behaviors. Yeah. Boom. Like, yeah. Anyway.

And then what happened after that? And then... How did you end up? I ended up just getting more and more anxious around him, really. It was more my body. My body's response to him because I just, yeah, it was just a complete shit show. And I ended up just getting, like, anxious. And then I went overseas with my friends for a week.

Just before COVID, obviously. Yes, obviously. and reset, I guess, for my body. You know, reset. I had honestly not spent much more than a few days away from him in a three-month period. Yeah. So kind of like, yeah, getting myself away from that space

and just hanging out with my friends. Yeah. Kind of really just like, I was like, I could breathe. And so everything reset for a little bit and the moment I went back to him and, you know, back from overseas, that was it. I freaked, like, my body just freaked out. Like, I couldn't be next to him without feeling like,

I was going to be a panic attack. My anxiety was through the roof. Yeah. Like, I just couldn't sit with him. I couldn't be with him. And I, you know, initially I was like, whoa, like, is this me? Like, I was just kind of like, I can't. I'm so anxious.

And so I went and saw a psychologist. Yeah. And I was like, you know, I'm so anxious around my boyfriend. Yeah. I don't know what's happening to me. And she was like, okay, like, explain kind of just your relationship a little bit. Yeah. What's been going on?

I talked for like a minute. or two. Yeah. And she just was like, I just could tell she was like, oh boy, and I'm a professional matter. And she just said, look, I have a hypothesis that he's a narcissist, you know? Yeah. This is a personality disorder.

It's not my client, but a hypothesize that he is. And like, so as you, like, we both studied psychology and like, you don't normally diagnose someone from someone else's assessment. You don't. It's like pretty much just not. It's pretty much. You don't do it. You learn in ethics.

Yeah. Like, you can't talk on behalf of something. So it's like, you have to be, so you have to be pretty fucking certain to say something like that. You have to be pretty fucking like scared for also my well-being to actually say something like no. Yeah. Like really clearly. Because I normally psych, I've never had a psych since that's been quite so like direct.

But she, anyway. Well, it's also the situation I think. Yeah. Yeah. You're actually like in danger here. Yeah. Like this person is like jeopardizing your physical and your mental health. Yeah.

you are like it's not good yeah exactly so yeah so she said you know I have a hypothesis that he's a narcissist and she very clearly goes you have two options in this situation one this is your life you stay with him and this is your life he's not going to change accept it right now no change this is him this is how he is

you stay this is your life two you leave that's it there's no in between there's no in between this is your life or you like yeah leave you make a decision and you like leave. I remember you telling you saying that to me and like the other day and like

I was thinking about a situation I'm currently in and I'm like wow like either I keep entertaining this person and like just feel awful about myself all the time and like constantly like in a state of anxiety survival basically

and be like oh my god like how come I just want to be with you so much and you obviously don't even give a shit about me yeah and I was like either I keep this up or I just like I let it go. And I, like, you said that to me and I don't, this relationship obviously isn't, like, abusive or... It's a little bit.

A little bit toxic. Yeah, but it's not like, to this degree. And, yeah, it was like, you said that to me and I was like, fuck, like, wow, like, it's my decision. Yeah, like, it really puts a control. Yeah, because the whole time the control is not with you. No. The control's not with you.

Everything is with them. Because they know, like, this person isn't like this, like, no at all, but like, I don't. but like I think when you're the one who loves that other person more, like you're never going to be like, I want to stop seeing you. Yeah, and that's the thing as well. Because you're not ending it because the love is gone or it kind of just fizzled out or you're doing different things.

Like you're ending it because it's not healthy for you. No. Like, and yeah. For the stage of life that you're in either. No, just ever. But yeah. Yeah. Well, especially when I had the biggest semester of uni.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you did it. I did. I was so, like... Yeah, I started breaking away and... Yeah, I pretty much... I started uni that week.

And I had a very busy semester coming up and I knew that and I just was very anxious and I just had to like... Yeah. Put it in. I had to say like, I'm ending this and I had to stick to it and I had to just block him. And that's really like... But then he started... Yeah. Showing up at your apartment.

Oh, yeah. Sorry, it doesn't end then. Like, you have to be so, like, strong to stick with yourself, I think. And, you know, I did go back, like, once, you know. You go back a little bit at the start. You ended, and then I think we slept together, like, a couple times. But it was really my body. And it was, like, the anxiety stopped me.

It really was. It wasn't my, like, mental state 100%. But my body could not handle his presence anymore. Like, your brain was the true of danger. It was, like, a fucking alarm going off in my body. It honestly was. Like, I couldn't, like, the anxiety that I experienced being in his presence and anything was to do with him.

Yeah. Was, like, so severe that I had to just not see him. Yeah. Like, it really was my only choice. Yeah. So it was good in that sense. Like, that's when the body really knows. Yeah.

I think it's when it's really important to listen to your body. Like the biofeedback. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, it's like that feedback loop that from everything. Yeah.

But, yeah. But then, yeah, obviously, because I had obviously tried to end it a lot throughout, like, this almost year period. He knew that. He knew I said this is done and gone back. So he thought this was just another one of those instances. I was like, oh, yeah, okay, I'll give you a bit of space and then come on back and we'll have the same chat and we'll go back straight in.

But the only thing to calm down my anxiety was completely detached and to try and mentally detached from him as well. So he tried to do this big grand gesture like a few weeks after I'd ended it. Which is typical. This is the love bombing. This is love bombing. This is love bombing. everyone. Love bombing.

You probably see it on Instagram a lot, but like, it's fucking serious thing. It's a serious thing that they do to get you back or in. They do it at the start a lot, but also this is at the end. It can happen any time. So he gave me kind of, so throughout our year kind of together, he had

sold my 21st birthday presents. He, you know, the things I asked for for Valentine's Day, which literally one rose he didn't get for me. So he never got me anything, basically. And so all at once, he brought me all the kind of gifts and things that I'd requested throughout the year at once, like in my room, it set it up.

And was like, ta-da, basically. Like, look what I've done. Da-da-da. Ready. Ready to take me back. And I just, like, stood there. And I just, I couldn't even entertain the idea anymore. Because otherwise, I'd freak out. So I was like, no.

And I was like, you know, and I just said to him, sit down. And I was very, like, sternly kind of said, this was, like, never what I wanted. Obviously, yes, I wanted these gifts. that's nice. It would have been great. It would have been nice, you know,

to feel a little ounce of love. Oh my God, yeah. Especially when you were doing so much for him. Yeah. But it's not about, obviously, it's not about the material. No. It's not it. So I was like, this is not it.

Yeah. This is never, this was never what it was about. This material stuff, which is obviously the only thing they can really relate to these people as well. Yeah. A lot of it's material stuff because they don't know anything about their emotions. Yeah. But I like sat down. I was like, all I ever wanted was stability.

and consistency. Simple, healthy, stable, consistent relationship. That's all I ever wanted. It's all I ever asked of you. And that was like, his face was like perplexed. Well, you said this to me. You were like, when you call out something like this,

they get so confused. When you tell them no. When you just tell them no and you're really, it's like unemotional as well. They can't understand. Like they're really thrown off. And it's kind of, in a way, kind of funny, like seeing him the first time not in control

because their control is back with you. you see when you take the control back from them and put it within yourself and actually make choices and say no and you know they're like what like what do you mean yeah you're saying no to me like it's yeah it's they just don't understand because it's like they never can compute what they really did it's weird but yeah so i just kind of kept saying no and you know he did try a few times he kept turning up my house you even tried to break into my house at one point lied to my house saying we were all contact, saying I was home when I wasn't home, that he could come in. Which is the lying and like the manipulation of other people around you as well.

Just like trying to get whatever he could to get at me and the answer was constantly no. And that's really what you have to do. You just have to break it off. And it's really, it's easier said than done. Like, yes, I did it. They have a bit of a choke hold on you. But, yeah, the emotions for like the first three months, I would say in pretty much the first three months

for the entire first semester of uni even though while I was doing uni and surviving as a matter like my emotions were all over the place. God. It's like going not that I've ever done hard drugs or been a drug addict but I would imagine it's like going cold turkey. Yeah. It is though

it is. It's an addiction in the brain. It is because it's an addiction in the brain and it's like cutting off a source of dopamine. Dopamine. It is. It's cutting off a huge source of dopamine. Also like it's cutting off a source of like norapherine and like your stress hormones and those are like quite addictive to your brain it's like why people take a lot of risks and why people do things like that and so when your brain it's like all of your neurotransmiticine hormones have been in this

state of heightened arousal and now you're like you're crashing exactly and because when you're in this situation you're these hormones and your emotions are so tied to the person and what they do to you like they will you know you'll get euphoric you'll get these amazing euphoric highs when they give you some crumbs of good behavior or them. They are in a good mood. You will be euphoric and it's amazing and that's, but they do something bad and you'll come crashing down like the biggest low. And so it's like when your emotions are so up and down based on this other person and they're being regulated only in this way, when you cut off that source, they have nothing to respond to anymore. They don't have that stimulus. They're trying to

still go up. They're trying to still go down. Yeah. But when you don't have that response, And when you're not fighting against something, the only thing you can really do is just kind of cry and be a mess. Like, there's nothing to respond to, but they're still wanting to. That's what I had, like, with this other person, it was like, not that I think one of the disclaimers we wanted to give is, like, I think two people can be toxic for each other, but aren't necessarily bad people.

And it doesn't mean that, like, your experience was any less valid because this person, you know, everyone else thinks they're pretty lovely. but like there's a difference I think between a toxic relationship and one that's abusive and the type of character that Cloudy is talking about which is like diagnosably sociopathic and narcissistic but I think toxic relationships can happen between any two people they can have a toxic relationship where two people I just do not have these personality disorders and do you know and I still think it's like completely like an experience that is like quite traumatising like yeah like there was this one person I was like see

and like it was it was just that anxiety you talk about is just so I can just remember it yeah I was just constantly anxious I was constantly waiting for him to yeah you appreciate me and like and he would say things to me all the time that would just like shoot me down yeah I don't oh like one time he was like oh I would never like properly date you because you're not pure enough yeah I think I told you about and I was like and then but then but then you know the next day he'd be like oh my god like i've had all of these amazing thoughts and i just need to share them with you and i was like what the fuck do you want for me it's the biggest fuck around yeah it's yeah and it's like i don't think that person is a bad person but like the trauma of it

like yeah well sometimes this is another thing that i read or got told i don't know what it was but sometimes the person doesn't have to be bad but their behavior is yeah and that's still what you're responding to and like in that situation that person was young and And I'm sure they're different now. But, like, oh, some of the other things that happened. Yeah, that's still inexcusable. Yeah, and there was a lot of other things where I was like, he was like, don't tell anyone about this.

And then. Yeah. And I was like, well, now I feel like we're accomplices in this thing. But actually, I'm the only one who's, like, burden by it. Like, yeah. And it was just so, and it, like, it took me, like, I'm sure you can speak to this, but, like, months. Yes.

Months. I don't even think I got over it until, like, only a couple of years ago. Well, I don't think, like, person, well, with, like, my experience, it's not something I think I will ever just get over. It was so traumatizing. It's not something like it's always going to be there now. It's always, in some ways it's been good. In some ways I can detect when I dated since like very fast when someone's not good.

I can detect very fast when a behavior is just not okay or not right for me or when someone's just not right for me. But in other ways, like even now I'm in like a lovely, with someone lovely, very healthy relationship. But anything that kind of the tiniest thing that could be to the contrary. and there's like a switch. There's like I will get into kind of defensive mode very like easily. So it's something that you're like, it's still going. It's just three years.

Yeah. And it's like... It like fully changes the structure of your brain. When someone treats you that way. It does. And like I have the other thing I like, I don't know if you've, if you have the same feeling. Like I haven't really going, I think into this as much. But like the thing I sometimes like sit up way at night thinking about is like I let someone treat me that way.

That was how I felt like the first year. Like that entire year that I had first broke it off. Even now I'm like, I like, I like, because I kind of accepted, there was a first of the part was accepting that's his personality, that's how he is. I have to get through that. Once I got through that and accepted,

that's the kind of person he is. Yeah. Yeah, then the guilt goes to you. Then the kind of anger kind of switches and it goes, what the fuck? And I remember this so vividly. It's so good, I remember this so vividly because there was a part,

a point where we did talk again for a bit. I unblocked him. we talked again, he invited me out to a concert or whatever. Initially, I agreed to it, got really, really anxious again. And then I, like, came home, like, an hour or two before the concert. Just, like, started bawling my eyes out, like, all the lights off in my room, the blanket over me, lying in my bed, just thinking over and over the, like, how, what am I doing? Yeah.

Like, how did I let someone treat me like this? Why are I still agreeing to this? Why did I agree to this? And being, like, oh, my God, like, what's going to happen? If I go, like, am I really doing this? Then I was like, what am I doing? And I just sat myself like, thank God, I was like, what the fuck? I have a choice here.

That's a thing. You don't feel like you do. I have to say yes. I'm like, oh, I have to. I said yes now. Oh, it's going to be so angry if I say no. Who cares? I was like, get a grip.

Yeah. Like, honestly. Get a grip, clarity. I was like, honestly, obviously terrible situation. I was like, I just had to be like, get a fucking grip. Look at you. Look at what? Look at what?

Look at you. You're fucking balling your eyes out and bed with all your lights off. Yeah. Like, go to group, and I was spent to go to my mum's that weekend, and I was like, why would you lie to your mum and blow off your mum? For this man. Yeah, I was like, no, sorry, I was like, you know, I've, like, packed up all my things, we went to the train to my mum's.

Yeah. And just, like, I can't do it. Not going. Not going. And obviously, he called angry. And I was, like, too bad. You don't have, just control me anymore. Yeah, I was like, too fucking bad.

But, yeah, that was, like, one of the times. I remember a lot of the times, like, in the aftermath and just healing. And even now sometimes, you know, you still kind of go back and you're like, how the fuck? did I let someone treat me? And it's because like from as well for me like yeah like this could happen to anyone and I in realizing that like I am

and I've always been very strong very independent, very confident in myself I've never kind of been anyone who's unsure really of themselves or has a lot of insecurities. So to kind of be like what the fuck how how did I go from kind of the girl in high school

rejecting every single man and being like not interested fuck you all to fucking like this to literally being on my knees, begging and crying for some person who doesn't give two shits. Yeah, because I find this, it's like with my friends and like when I'm out or when I'm

alone, I'm like, wow, I'm genuinely like the best person in the world. Yeah. And I'm like, and I like, even last night I was like lying in bed and it's like then you, I'm just like, how did I? Like, I don't know, we just keep saying this but I just think about it a lot. Like it keeps me up. But then obviously it's good. Like learning about.

You know, obviously the science behind it, which we haven't even really gone into too much. Well, I think we're going to go into that in the second part of this episode, which we'll probably publish on it like two different ones like the first one. So, yeah, should we go into the science? Yeah, so yeah, pretty much the question that we asked ourselves for a long time, like still, how did we end up in this? In this, yeah. 2%.

That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side

a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO% on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at a Podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay and I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host kids.

games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed human