The Psychology of your 20s - 238. High functioning codependency and caring too much ft. Terri Cole

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

What is the cost of caring too much for others? Always being the person to fix everyone's problems? Never needing anyone, but secretly loving that everyone else relies on you? Well, it turns out it can cost you and your relationships a lot, and may also be a sign of high functioning codependency. High functioning codependency is much more common amongst people who are overachieving, overgiving and who have few boundaries (even if they don't know it).  In today's episode, we are joined by the originator of this term. Terri Cole is a psychotherapist and boundary expert who has been investigating this phenomena for years in her high functioning and highly successful clients. She shares the traits, behaviours, costs and ways to improve your high functioning codependency. This was one of my favourite episodes to date, happy listening! Buy Terri's new book here:  https://www.soundstrue.com/products/too-much?srsltid=AfmBOor1-0MHrQayS-ZdUANvTC5qC-T4e1Bpxotu8cti1CqOVVizKO17  Follow Terri here: @terricole  Terri's resources: https://www.terricole.com/  Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast For business: [e-mail] See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our 20s. Co-dependency is a word that gets thrown around a lot in the self-help space, but it's also incredibly misunderstood. do it. And a lot of us don't really understand the pattern of behaviors it describes. We also tend to believe that we would be really good at recognizing codependency when we see it. We think of someone who lacks boundaries around others, who is incredibly emotionally, sometimes physically dependent on other people. But what about those situations when codependency doesn't look like the

codependency that we've typically come to expect? What happens when it looks like being the person that others always come to when they're in trouble, always being the one to make group plans, organize, travel, divvy up the check, never having a minute for yourself or feeling very exhausted by everyone else's emotions, needs, preferences. Could that also be codependency? We tend to really reward and praise this kind of self-sacrificing and giving behavior, and we see it as selfless, but are we really just trying to control a situation? we just feel more secure when we are in charge? All of this indicates something called high functioning codependency, which is a more invisible form of codependency, really common amongst

overgiving, over extending individuals. And I want to talk about it today because it is a concept that has just fascinated me. And to talk about it, I want to welcome on the psychotherapist and the boundary expert Terry Cole, who discovered this phenomena and who talks about it a lot to people worldwide. So Terry welcome to the show. Oh, thanks for having me. I'm really, really excited. Can you give a little intro, tell people who you are before we dive into my questions for you today? Sure.

I am a psychotherapist and a relationship expert. I'm a boundary expert in communication. I have been doing this for 27 years. I am the author of a book called Boundary Boss. And I have a new book that's coming out in October. Actually, this drops on the 11th. So on the 15th of this month, called Too Much, a guide to break in the cycle of high functioning codependency.

So I'm really an expert in female empowerment. Like, that's really what my deal is. I was a talent agent, negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities before I became a psychotherapist. So I left this career that nobody really understood why I was leaving that career. My father was like, hello, what are you doing?

You're going to become a social work. Like, what? Hello? Why are you doing that? And it's interesting when you have a different career before becoming a therapist, but I was motivated by my own experience in therapy. I just couldn't even believe how much you could change your own life and that it really did not matter what cards I was dealt. Like, that shit did not determine the hand I was going to play in life. I decided, I don't like that hand. I don't even like this fucking game. I'm not even playing this game. I'm making up an entirely new game, which is what I did. but I was able to see that possibility because of my own personal evolution in therapy. And then even though I had this fancy, very shiny career that everyone thought was amazing and I was making a ton of cash, and I was in Hollywood.

You know, this was New York and L.A. I was bicostal. It's like I had. It was fancy, but I wasn't happy. And you just get to a point where you can't, like I just could no longer deny that the only thing I cared about was the mental health of the model. I was like, you need to change careers, dude, because you don't even want to be here anymore doing this.

But I really wanted to help people. And so I was in my early 30s when I decided to become a psychotherapist, and I've been doing that for 27 years. That is an incredible story, just incredible. And honestly, it is very indicative of a calling. It's just so clear to me when you're explaining that. It's like, oh, this, yeah, it wasn't the right fit for you because there was a higher thing that, obviously maybe your soul, your personality was calling you to and now you've done some incredible, incredible work in this space.

What initially, so you wrote this incredible book on boundaries, which really I would recommend. You also wrote an amazing YouTube channel and I was reading some of the comments on a video that you did around boundaries and the amount of people who are like, wow, like my eyes are suddenly open to an entirely new reality. I think that is the power of talking about mental health, talking about psychology, embracing therapy. What drew you to codependency in the same way that you were initially drawn into this space? The reason, I'll just share quickly, like, why did I come up with

high functioning codependency? Why? Was there not enough on codependency? Well, the answer is, there wasn't. And it wasn't the right stuff for my clients. So what I saw over and over again is that I have these baller women who are CFOs, I mean international pop star, like people who are crushing the game of life. And not all. And then some would say at home moms, which are amazing too, right?

Not everyone had huge careers, but a lot did. And I use them as an example because so much of the time people will look at someone who's a CFO of a company and making $2.5 million a year and be like, obviously they have it all together. And yet, when I would say,

to any one of those people, hey, what you're describing in your relationship is a codependent pattern. That's what I'm seeing. They would immediately reject it and be like, yeah, lady, I'm not dependent on squat. Everybody's dependent on me. I'm making all the money. I'm making all the moves. I'm controlling all the people. I'm managing everything in the home. I'm managing all the kids. I'm my family of origin. I'm organizing all the shit. So they couldn't see. So I realized, oh, my clients don't know what codependency is. So what happened is they were stuck in the old school melody-bedee codependent no more. You have to be enabling an alcoholic in order to be a codependent.

And that just is not accurate. It just isn't true, you know? So when I added high functioning to go-dependency and explain to my clients what it is when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, right? the relationships, the finances, the feelings, all of it, of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. Right. And we need that caveat because it's not the same. Of course, we're all invested in the people we love being happy, obviously.

We're like normal, nice people. When you're a high functioning codependent, it's more than that. It's like we feel compelled to take it on. We feel actually responsible for. other people's feeling states and their outcomes. And at its, you know, when I added the high functioning to the definition, my clients, all of them, without shame, raise their hands saying it's me, I'm the problem, it's me. Not to quote Taylor, but I will.

Please, go for it. You know what I mean, though, where they felt like that's true. I am overfunctioning. I am overgiving. I do do more than my share. I am doing all the emotional labor in my home, and I am pissed because that's the thing. You could do that for a long time. Sooner or later, that shit is a one-way ticket to bitter land.

Like, there's only so long you can do it. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And it was interesting when I was looking into this where just how much I resonated with this concept, where you get into this mindset of being like, I'm giving so much, but you realize that actually all that you're allowing, in that process of giving, actually, you're just allowing boundaries to be crossed for the sake of others.

And you don't realize that actually you are assuming that you are giving people everything, everything for them and that you are doing what's best for them. But actually they would be better off if you had stronger boundaries. They would actually be better off if you were more able to not just say no, but to have like entire systems in place in the first place and expectations around what they could come to you for, what you were able to do, the time you needed for yourself. And as you said, when you add that high functioning component, I think that also reduces some of the perhaps stigma around codependency, that codependency is only about people who just

want to spend a lot of time with each other or only about people who enable substance use it's actually not the case. It shows up in a lot of very, as you said, high achieving women, high achieving individuals who are perhaps using codependency as a way to stay secure and stay in control of other people's feelings and therefore their own feelings. So what are some of the typical indicators if you were talking to a therapy client and you said to them, oh, you know, I think that high functioning codependency is something that you might relate to. what would you describe to them? What kind of individual would you describe to them?

Well, I think, yes, I would describe to them, which I would describe to you, the traits, and then we would hit the behaviors, and then we would hit the costs, and then we could hit what you can do about it, right? How we can change it. So let's do it in that order, shall we? Yes, please. Traits, feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems, giving till it hurts, right, going above and beyond, even when you're not asked to.

And a lot of times, a lot of the shit I was doing my 20s, nobody was asking. And I still felt underappreciated for it. Always ready to jump into damage control mode. Like at the ready for any crisis, we are the friend that you want to be in the foxhole with because we're good in a crisis. A kind of being a little judgy of others, because deep down, we really kind of think we know what they should be doing. We're a little bit like, if Betty had just listened to me and broken up with that idiot six months ago, she wouldn't be crying right now. we can get a little self-righteous. Getting frustrated and angry.

When other people don't take our grade A advice. Feeling exhausted, resentful, bitter, burnt out. So those are traits. Behaviors. Well, auto advice giving. Just giving unsolicited advice to any and all who will listen. Being overly self-sacrificing. again, as you just kind of described, like doing all the things for other people.

Auto-accommodating. So I want to talk about this concept that I also originated because it was something that I suffered from. I was like, I cannot be the only person where this is happening. So it was a Saturday, I was in my salon in New York City, and it was super busy, and I normally don't go on Saturday because it's like a zoo in there, but anyway, I had to go. And I'm sitting there, and it's busy as hell, and I'm laying in a sink. I've got a hair mask on my hair. and now the sink traffic is starting to back up.

And every time another person is standing there with a towel around their head waiting or whatever, I'm getting more and more anxious because here I am taking up a sink. But like nobody's doing anything to me, right? I'm just sitting here. I could be sitting somewhere else, but letting this mask sit. So anyway, I call over the assistant and say, hey, I could move. And of course, she's looking at me like, no shit, lady. I know you could move, but I don't need you to because I do this every Saturday. I mean, she was nice. She was like, we're good. And I had this realization. I was like, this is how you are everywhere, Tara. You're so dialed into your external environment. It feels like you are responsible for, right? I felt responsible for the sync flow for no good reason,

seeing as how I was a customer as well. And I actually just, this was only five years ago. and I actually put it on, I put it on YouTube, right? I just did like a quick, like video, and it went totally viral. And people were just like, oh, my God, that is me. So auto-accommodating is when you basically see a need in your environment, and you just want to jump in and fix it. You just want to jump in and help. You just, you know, and again, a lot of people will say to me online,

I mean, I'm just being nice. Like, what's wrong with being nice? And I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not do it, you're not being nice. It is a compulsion. Oh, wow. Bit of a truth bomb there. Right, which is why the way that I walk you through it in the book and the way I walk you through it in my community is that we get into recovery from high functioning codependency.

But we don't get cured because this is a discipline to change. these behaviors takes time, you know. Other behaviors are anticipatory planning. You know, you're going to be with people. I tell a story in the book about my friend who was dating this person. It was just such a, just such a jerk. I hated this person. But anyway, but we were going away. And so her partner was coming. And this was someone who just kicked up my codependency hardcore because they were so difficult. And then they torture my friend. And it just was like a nightmare being with them. But anyway, I would make sure that if there were different rooms to stay and that they stayed in the nicest room so that he didn't complain. And I would make sure that whatever he drank, we would have that booze.

Like, there was all these things. And I realized later, I was like, why? Just don't go away with them. You don't like this guy. But that's what anticipatory planning is. You might do it with family, right? Two people who don't like each other. You're like, well, I won't set them near each other.

instead of, that's very HFC to try to, we're manipulating and we're like puppet mastering what's happening as opposed to having a conversation with the family members saying, hey, if you two can't figure it out, neither one of you were invited to Christmas, right? Like, why not, you know, talking true, just having a straight conversation. But as an HFC, usually we don't do that. We're all good girls. We're all, you know, we all want to be nice. We don't want people to think that we're not nice.

Other behaviors is just overfunctioning. And the overfunctioning and underfunctioning dynamic is super common with HFCs, where I say that I could take, in my 20s, I could take a perfectly capable boyfriend and turn him into an underfunctioner in two weeks or less. Yeah, in the sense that you could take on all of his responsibilities. You could plan the dates. You could plan his life. What laundry he needs to be doing, when he needs to call his mom, whatever it is. Yes. Maybe not down to that minutia, but the truth was.

There wasn't room for them because the mantras of HFCs are like, I got it is one major mantra. We just can't stop being like, I got it. It's all good. I got it, right? Because we are so capable, though. So a lot of times we do got it, but just because you can, it doesn't mean you should all the time, you know? Or another mantra is it has to be me. It's like this belief that other people won't do it as well, won't do it the way we'll

want it done, won't do it in a timely fashion. So it's just easier to do it myself is a lot of what we're saying in our minds. So what is the cost of all this? Do you want to talk about that? I want to talk about that, but firstly, I want to just quickly ask this question. Because before we get into the cost, I really want to know what's at the root of this, because I'm listening to you talk about this and a few things have come out for me. The first one is maybe an element of perfectionism like you said. There is a sense that the only way that you can fully control an outcome is if you are beside every single behavior action, everything that leads you to the place.

So the only way to control whether Christmas is going to go well is if you carefully curate the seeding plan, you make sure everyone is happy. So maybe it's perfectionism. Then I'm thinking maybe it's control, but then also like an element of people pleasing. right? I like what you said before around, is it really kindness or is it a compulsion? Like, are you actually at your core a nice person or can you just not fathom the idea of people not liking you or things not happening in the way that makes you feel safe and secure? So what is really at the root of this? Is it a combination of these three things or is there another ingredient that maybe I'm missing as well? Well, I think you are very astute because those ingredients, I mean, the foundation, of all codependency, but especially how to function in codependency, is control. It is an overt or covert bid to control other people's outcomes. We just don't want our friend marrying the stupid idiot.

We don't, we want to do everything we can to help her see the light. We don't want our partner getting fired, so we will, you know, not, we will make more money and let them flounder. You know what I mean? Like there's, we will over function to protect other people from feeling bad. Of course, ultimately, it makes them feel worse. So it doesn't really work in that way. So yes, over and underfunctioning, yes, perfectionism. But control is such a big part of it.

And because it has such a negative connotation, people don't want to identify with it, but that is absolutely what it is. We could, you know, you could call it, whatever the hell you want to call it. But that, that is what it is. we want to control other people's outcomes. But in the process of being so driven, unconsciously, so much of this is unconscious, it's like there's so much self-abandonment that goes on because we just want peace. As HFCs, we just want there to be peace in the valley.

We just want everyone to be happy, right? We just don't want any problems. And so that kind of peace, like we won't say anything. You know, what's her name? Shera Richardson has a great quote that it's like, you know, not speaking up to keep the peace starts of war within ourselves.

That is spot on. Spot on. I've got another question for that, actually. Sure. Because you're saying control, and I feel like this is my own personal therapy session, right? Because control is my big problem. Yes.

Is there, have you found, that there is an overlap or maybe a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and those of us who are eldest daughters or people who are the eldest sibling who have perhaps been socialized and conditioned to take on all this responsibility the same way that maybe a mother would or maybe someone in charge of the family would. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

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Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you found that there is an overlap or maybe a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and those of us who are eldest daughters? Yeah, without a doubt, a lot of eldest daughter syndrome, but also a lot of good girl syndrome. Yeah. So in any, any place that you are in the family system, because if you think about family systems,

right, there's all these different roles that people play. And everyone was from some kind of a disordered family system. I mean, who wasn't? So if my family system, my father was a high-functioning alcoholic. So, you know, had a great job, a great career, retired at 50. Like, I mean, you know, did well, but it doesn't change what, you know, how he managed his emotions was with alcohol. And, you know, we were raised to be good girls.

And the focus, when you have a, there are different ways that the family systems are. in a family system where there is addiction of any kind, most people in the family system are organizing around that person. So in a healthy family system, it is child-focused. I don't mean child-obsessed. I just mean child-focused, where the activities are around what the children need. In a more dysfunctional system, the activities are around.

It could be a designated patient, right? It could be someone with mental health, could be someone who's physically unwell, could be an abuser that people organize around, but you learn how to go along to get along. Nobody needs to send you like a note when you're seven to figure out how to avoid being rejected, how to avoid being abused.

Like you immediately know it intuitively, how to be helpful, how to go make mommy's next drink, even if mommy's an alcoholic, because you're a part of the solution and you don't want her to be mad or to judge you or to reject you. So a lot of times those things make a difference too.

I grew up as the hero child in my family system. So that's the one where everyone can agree that that person is amazing, no matter what else is going on. But so you sort of have it on your shoulders to like make the family look good, right? Yes. Everyone can agree that you're good. You're a winner. You know what I mean?

But none of these roles are free. So all of the family systems, whether you're the scapegoat, whether you know what I mean, all those roles play a part. But I find that a lot of HFCs are eldest daughters or first generation or their parents were first generation. You know, there's a lot of that too because there's so much culture. I mean, we have a downloaded HFC blueprint, all of us do, which is basically your relational blueprint. And this is made up of what you learned in your family of origin, the country you grew up in the culture, the society, your role in the family system. All of these things sort of coalesce, come together. And this makes up the unconscious material that is in your mind that tells you this is the way I should relate in the world.

Whether it's with the people at church, whether it's with my partner, whether it's with my friends, whether it's with my cousins, whatever. right? We have a how it should be type of thing. And part of this process I'm getting healthier. And I walk people through it in Boundary Bost and we also walk through it in too much, in different, with different lenses, right? Because in too much, we're really looking at what did you learn about the way you're supposed to relate to other people in specific situations and the world, though? Because with HFCs, it's different than sort of regular codependency. Because we can get, we can become codependent with people we don't even freaking know barely. Like, because we're concerned about others. We can sort of get codependent with our environment. And people we just meet, at least I did, and I see this in my clients as well. Oh, I'm just listening to you talk about this. But you can see me just nodding my head, being like, yeah, tick, tick.

And it's interesting what you said around it being almost wide into our subconscious or unconscious. especially as children, but also coming to us almost as a blueprint. We all have this capacity. And of course, the blueprint that we all have as children comes from a place of survival. That's why we are born to be particularly accommodating to the needs of a caregiver or a parent because we are reliant on them. It's why we are born to, being able to chameleon, being able to please others, it's all survival.

So is that also? where high functioning codependency comes from is at some point you've learnt a pattern of behavior that's made life easier for you by allowing you to be more in control. Is that also something that you see a lot? I do. And the thing is, it's in a way, it's an illusion of control. But it does make sense. And along the same lines, if we're talking about childhood, you might have a lot of people being parentified in childhood. So there's two different ways of being parentified. One is emotion. If you have a parent who talked to you like you were a grown-up, told you things about themselves that wasn't appropriate or shared adult burdens with you about we don't have the money to pay the lights or whatever, you know. That's one way.

It's almost like the emotional parentification. And then there's the actual parentification, like the physical, where you might be making dinner for younger siblings. You might be expected to clean the house. You might, like anyone who is parentified, and if you had addicted parents or alcoholic parents or parents with mental health challenges, you might have been like the only sort of adult in the room, even though you were 10. So what is this do and what does it create? It creates high functioning codependency and the abilities.

Like, imagine, if you're cooking dinner at 9, you're capable. bull is hell. Imagine how capable you are by 19, 29, 39. It's like, there's like not anything you can't figure out. And when you have a childhood like that, right, it makes you very, very committed to figuring it out because the alternative is feeling out of control, is feeling victimized, is being victimized, but a lot of those things that were adaptive in childhood become maladaptive in adulthood. So we have to revisit them and go, does this make sense? Should I be doing all of these things for all of these people? Is this in my highest and best interest? Do I have the bandwidth to do this rather than being on autopilot? Yeah. I think this is a great transition into talking about

the cost, because you really introduce this to us. So what does this cost us, in but also in terms of our relationships as well. When we think we might be helping someone, we think we might be this loving, giving person, I have a feeling that you're going to tell us that maybe that isn't always the most beneficial thing. Yeah, that's true. Because here's the thing. I'll tell you a quick story. And I share it in the book, but this is what actually changed my life when it comes to codependency and high-functioning codependency in my 20s. One of my sisters was in a bad situation

with someone who was doing a crack addict and she was an active alcoholic and they were living in a house in the woods with no running water and no electricity and he was abusive. So, I mean, for an HFC, it's like a five alarm fire every day and I was obsessed with like

how am I going to save her from this domestic hell? You know, like, what am I going to do? So I was crying to my therapist and bawling my eyes out and saying, you know, Bev, I've done everything. What am I going to do? And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it? But do you know what's happening for you and all of this? And I was like,

obviously, no, I do not. Please clue me in. And she said, Terry, you've worked really hard to create a harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire is really messing with your piece. You want your pain. You want that to be fixed because ultimately you want your pain to end. She is not wrong. Yeah. That is true. Yeah. And so do you think it was an element of like in your attempts to soothe yourself and to, not to say eliminate, but to fix this like stressor for you? Because of course when it comes to very close relationships, you feel someone else's pain, especially as a sibling, especially as someone in your family, there is a bond there that is incredibly otherworldly. Do you think that actually the relationship you have with your sister deteriorated or did it get to a point of

her not listening to you? Because I've had this before with people where, and I've learnt this with friends where it's like you can't tell someone to just break it with their boyfriend or break it with their girlfriend or their partner because all it's going to happen is they'll just stop telling you the bad stuff. So you're actually not helping them and you're, in your attempts to fix it, like you're actually further isolating them. What ended up happening with her in that situation, if you want to share, of course. Yeah, no, I do. I read about it in the book, so I've already shared, so no problem.

I said to my therapist, so what do I do then? Like, what are my options now? And she said, Terry, you need boundaries. Because remember, it was my 20s, and I was the boundaryless wonder. So I had no boundaries. And I didn't even know I could. have boundaries with my sister. I had no idea. I was like, what? I could be a good sister and do that. And she said, listen, you don't have to let her talk to you about this guy, but you can be there

if she needs you. So I talked to my sister. I said, hey, I can't talk about this with you. It's so painful and disruptive for my life, but I love you. And when and if you ever really want to get out, I'll always be your person. I'll always be your person. And she really understood. She was like, you know what? I get it. Okay. And we talked a few times in nine months, and then she called me and said, I'm ready. Are you still my person? And I was like, oh, yes, I am. Got in my car, went and picked her up. And the most important aspect of this story is that by doing that, my sister was ready to change what wasn't working in her life. Instead of her youngest sister, being the hero in her story, which is what we're doing, when we insert ourselves, when we can't stop telling people what to

do. We're literally centering ourselves in that person's problem. It's so, God, that was the hardest thing for me to, like, wrap my own mind around. I was like, oh, is that what I'm doing? That's terrible. But she ended up finally coming to it. She got sober. She got back to school. My husband and I helped her in an inappropriate way, but she is the hero of her own story. It's not about me. It's about her. And I loved her enough to tolerate the way that felt. Right, because that's what love is. fixing other people. Love is being like, I'll be in the foxhole with you even when you're suffering. And even when I think you could end your suffering by ending this relationship. But she wasn't ready just because I was ready for her to do it. And it stuck. She never went back with him. She never got

into another relationship like that. And that was this decades ago. She's gone on to have a career. It's like she did that herself. And we robbed people of their sovereignty. And their dignity when we're endlessly thinking we know what they should be doing. So what can we do instead? The cost to us is great to, burnout, health, bitterness, living life light is what I call it, when we're constantly obsessed and, you know, in our minds about other people and other things. We're not fully present in our own life. And life hits different when you're kind of only half here.

It's like half as juicy as it should be. Half as amazing as it should. I love that way. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. So true. And we're not fully self-expressed because we're not focusing on us. We're focusing on others.

And then we have the cost to the other people. Their autonomy, right? Not accepting them where they are. People become projects. Nobody likes that. They do not like it. And I hate it when I feel like someone thinks I'm a project. I want to punch them.

I'm like, hey, man, look at my life. Does it seem like I need your advice? I don't. Please stop giving it to me. It's very dehuman. humanizing, which is not what we're trying to do. So what can we do instead? Anyway, you guys who are listening, we're like, okay, great, thank you.

I'm identified. Now what can I do? Well, that's hope that you've raised your awareness through this conversation that we're having. You need to take a look at your boundaries. And when we're HFC is a lot of times we're the ones trampling on other people's boundaries. Inadvertently, we're not meaning to. but when you give someone advice who hasn't asked you for advice

when you just transfer money into someone's account because you're worried they're not going to make their rent but I had a client who was paying rent for like 38-year-old son or whatever it was. Oh, man. And I was like, you know, she's like, well, just in case he doesn't have enough. And I'm like, this is what I think is happening.

Here's the subtext of that. Your son who's mismanaging his money comes to you and says, I don't think I can do it. I don't think I'm going to make it. I don't know how to do this. I think I'm a loser. You giving him money monthly?

What are you saying? I agree with you. I agree. I think you're a loser too. I don't think you're going to do it either. Wow. And did she stop doing it? Yes, but the thing is, she changed it.

I was like, the conversation isn't about cutting him off. The conversation is about believing in him. I have faith that you are resourceful. and I know that you're going to figure this out. And I don't think I've been helping you. And I'm sorry, but I honestly do believe in you, which is why I'm not going to be giving you any more money. You're 38, you have a job, you're grown up,

and I want to respect that. I want to respect your autonomy. Instead of giving the auto advice stuff too, for people who are really identified, because I feel like most people, if you're a loving person, you just think that's a part of it. So instead of immediately giving advice

or having ideas or suggestions, I want you to just start to raise your awareness about how often you want to give advice, right? How often you want to add your two cents? And instead of that, if your friend comes to you with a problem, even if you eventually give them your two cents, the first thing you're going to say is,

okay, before we get into it, you tell me what you think you should do because you're in the situation. Nobody's gut is better than yours about, this because it's your life. And I'm here too. You want to brainstorm it. You want to spitball it, whatever you want to do. But it's like putting the emphasis back on them because it's the truth. Like you actually don't know what they should do. You can share experiences you had if you want to later. But I feel like it can't be the first step, the first stop on the bus. You know what I

mean? Because now we're co-opting that conversation and bringing it back to our grade A advice instead of saying, so how do you feel about that? And then what happened? Well, what was that like? And then what did they say? Like, there's a way to ask expansive questions, and it's the most loving thing in the world to give people your undivided attention.

Especially if it's not undivided attention with the purpose of then providing advice. You know what I mean? I feel like that's really what I'm getting from this is allow people to show you that they're capable. I feel like so often we listen to someone's problems and we're concocting exactly what we think that they should do and what we would do and how we can help.

Have you ever had one of those situations where someone is just ranting and very upset and you go to give them advice and you can just say they just really don't want it? They really are not interested. Actually, what they want is, as you said, for someone to listen to them. And I'm listening to this and thinking about situations with my friends.

And I'm thinking about situations with my sisters where I have just jumped in and been like, okay, so I can just pay for that if you want. You know, if you're worried about, you know, my sister was talking to me the other day. And I was like, well, if you're worried about that, like, I'll just send you some money. What became really clear to me in that as well was that we could have gone in and talked for like another 20 minutes. But also because I just immediately offered that solution, I actually didn't really hear how she was feeling. and my initial reaction to just jump in and be like, oh my gosh, I love you so much, let's fix this, what can I do? Maybe that's why you're calling me. I think I realized I was like, actually,

no, you're calling me just because you wanted to be heard, not because you wanted to be fixed in a way. That's so good and it's so true. And you're exactly right. Your insights are so good because you're exactly right. This behavior, high functioning, codependent behavior, it limits. the intimacy that we have in our relationships because exactly what you just described is what we do. So how we know people is we go, so if you did know what to do, what do you think it would be? Or have you felt like this before? Like when we ask expansive questions, this is when we learn about people. And another thing that you can do that is so helpful when you want to give advice or are you not sure someone's in pain.

And even with your sister, you can always say, how can I best support you right now? 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong.

Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of course. crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games.

And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking,

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And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid?

Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast,

learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search learn the hard way and listen now. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so much. I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, the lesbian, Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young.

This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until Justice is. served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. When you want to give advice or are you not sure someone's in pain and even with your sister, you can always say, how can I best support you right now? And this comes back to the core foundation of codependency. You're not enabling them. You're no longer enabling them to see you as, I don't know, the cash cow, or see you the one who can fix it for them or the one who can plan for them. Like you said, you know, it's agency.

Agency is a gorgeous, gorgeous gift to give someone trust, agency, faith. And end your own, because the thing is, when we feel overly responsible for others, our own lives, internal and external, suffer. We're exhausted. You can't do it forever. And people who do, trust me, I see women coming into my therapy practice in their six or seventh decade of life. And they're like,

listen, I checked all the boxes. We have money. I'm on a bunch of boards. The kids all went to Ivy League schools. Is this how I'm supposed to feel? Because, wow, it's really not that awesome. And they just say like it's empty. And I'm like, yeah,

because nobody friggin knows you. You literally built your whole life checking boxes that other people told you. Where's the way to go? Always taken one for the team. by it always self-sacrificing. No one even knows you. It is so not satisfying.

It is such a bummer. So I'm so happy that this show is for people in their 20s. Because if you guys start now, you won't be in my therapy office in your 60s. And I can't imagine I'll still be, I'd be 100. So I'm probably not going to be still to be a therapist in 100. But do you know what I mean? Like there's so much that you can do now to realize what real love and real support means that I'll hang with you even when it's hard and even when you don't know.

I'll stay in the foxhole with you, even through the uncertainty that makes me so uncomfortable because I love you, because that's what devotion is. That's what love is, is that I will tolerate my discomfort to comfort you in a real way doing something that makes you feel comforted, not makes you feel like a problem I just fixed. I think that is the most beautiful conclusion. Such a beautiful way to summarize it. And again, if you've made it this far, you are most likely as well, someone in their 20s or maybe their 30s. I think that one of the most beautiful things about having this platform as well and having people like you on is that I think about 20 years ago when they were not these resources.

And that's the generation that you now speak to. And hopefully as time goes on, we have this psycho education. We have this level of self-awareness that means that you're not going to be 50 or 60 and wondering why your relationships are shallow, why you feel so burnt out, why you feel so exhausted by your need for control. So even if it's confronting in this moment, think about how much time you now have ahead of you to really rewire your brain towards trust, towards healthy dependency, and to unlearn some of those maladaptive habits that you've picked up from childhood, from teenage years,

from your early 20s. Exactly. And I have a super special gift for your listeners that will help them if they're identified with this. So I have an HFC toolkit for you. So you just go to terrycolle.com forward slash HFC, or high functioning codependent. And I'm giving you some lessons in there, like simplify and do less. It's like a video and a PDF.

I'm giving you a guided meditation, the power of no meditation, and just walking you through things that you can do to start on this journey of recovering from high functioning codependency. Not to be obviously by the book too, but I figured I would give you a free gift just to get you going. I'm going to go check that out. And please, please, pre-order, Terry's book, this conversation has been so enlightening. I've already had a look through and it just looks marvelous. There is quite honestly, nothing else like what you've written that I've come across,

nothing else that, well, you created this term. So a lot of people do not, yeah, and it's just mind-blowing to me sometimes that, you know, it's 2024 and it takes someone saying this out loud for thousands of people to come out of the woodwork and be able to identify themselves and understand themselves more. So there will be a link both to that free gift from Terry.

Thank you so much. And also the book in this episode description, Terry, you have been an amazing guest. Seriously mind-blowing. Thank you so much for coming on. I really loved this discussion. Thank you so much for having me. I'm planning to come, by the way, to, oh, you're in Australia, yeah? I'm in Australia, yes.

Yeah, so I think in 2025, I've been doing a whole bunch of interviews. And I have this group of women who are like, please come. We're going to do events. So anyway, I think by the end of 20 or 25, I'm coming. So I'm going to come for you. Oh, my gosh. I will be their front row. Front row.

And Australia is a beautiful place. Everyone knows. That's a reason I haven't left. It's so gorgeous. You'll get a very warm reception, that's for sure. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.

Of course. And thank you so much for listening if you have made it this far. As always, if you have an episode. episode suggestion, you want to get in touch, you want to share your thoughts about this episode, you can DM me at that psychology podcast, make sure you are following along, give us a five-star review if you, of course, feel cool to do so, and share with a friend. I've already got three friends in mind who I think are going to be getting a link to this episode in their messages. So until next time, stay safe, stay kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very, very soon.

Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to and learn the hard way with your favorite therapist and hosts Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins.

But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian. Michael Marantini. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is love trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter.

I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on. On the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed.

I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.