The Psychology of your 20s - 247. Can we be friends with our ex?

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

A lot of us try to convince ourselves we can be friends with our ex in the immediate aftermath of a breakup, but is that necesserily the best idea? In 2022 I did an episode with my ex-boyfriend talking about how a friendship was totally possible, well since then it is obvious to say that I have changed my mind, and in this episode I give my reasons, including:  Why we (mistakedly) try to stay friends with our exes  The types of relationships where this feels possible  The consequences  How it impacts our new relationships, self esteem, and ability to find closure How to be friends with an ex if you MUST BE  Essential boundaries for a friendship with your ex This episode is the only time I have redone/revised an episode so we hope you enjoy.    PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/  Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast For business: [e-mail]    The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. It is great to have you here for a very special topic in my mind. Two years ago, I did an episode on whether exes could be friends and during that episode I brought on my ex-boyfriend. If you have been around for a while, you probably remember this episode and And this is the first ever time that I have gone back to an episode from the archives,

back to one that I recorded, you know, almost two years ago and decided to redo it. Decided to basically say, you know what, I think that I was wrong. I don't think that what I said in that episode, the points that I made are entirely true, are mature, are actually what I believe in anymore. And so today, I want to redo that episode, this time, with you. out my ex-boyfriend because we are no longer friends. And we haven't been friends actually since that episode came out. I haven't spoken to him since that episode came out.

And, you know, I just felt kind of strange to have this episode on the podcast, making these huge claims that it's mature to stay friends with your ex, that it's possible. Like, look at us. We've done it when actually the reality of what happened after that was entirely to the contrary and entirely not true. That episode actually essentially meant that our friendship or whatever it was ended and I'm not going to go into specific details but it was definitely a lesson for me around the truth that people are telling you can be a different truth for other people. Like they could be telling you one thing and telling other people something different and it actually

ended up causing me a lot of pain, like the aftermath of that episode. And yeah, not really realizing that he hadn't been entirely honest with me. There were things that he hadn't told me. And to this day, it still kind of upsets me that I, like, kind of gave that relationship a platform when it was definitely not a perfect relationship. We definitely did not have a perfect friendship. You know, I thought we were friends. I think he thought something differently. And so it kind of came around the time to, you know, not to go into any specific reasons, but after thinking about it for a while, I was like, you know what? I think it's time that we do this again. And it was the aftermath of that episode. The irony is, you know, definitely obvious to me here that really proved to me that I

actually don't think exes can be friends. And I think that the relationship that you have with your ex ended for a reason. And that reason is probably just as good of a reason as to why you wouldn't want to be friends with that person anyways. Of course, you know, there are definitely exceptions to what I'm saying, but if you've ever seen the film, he's just not that into you, there is a line in that movie, a very famous line that typically, for most of us, we are the exception, we are not the rule, and maybe that's why we should be.

And when it comes to being friends with your ex, I think the rule is genuinely, and generally, that's not a good idea. And perhaps this is a hard pill for you to swallow, especially if you are just fresh out of a relationship, you're trying to find a way to kind of maintain a friendship because you don't want to lose them. You're not ready to move on. I would really encourage you to keep listening, even if what we talk about in today's episode isn't necessarily what you want to hear. You know, in my mind, I think the friendships that we try and maintain with our exes, they all reach a breaking point sooner or later. And you can believe.

leave that you are friends, you can try and be friends, you can convince yourself that you are, but only up to a point. And then you just kind of have to face the facts. I think like any friendship, there are ups and downs, but a friendship with your ex, especially someone that you once loved, that you were once romantically attracted to, sexually attracted to. There are definitely more downs than ups when it comes to those kinds of friendships. And it ends up impacting every other aspect of our lives, like who we go on to date, how we see ourselves, jealousy, resentment, so much more. So today we are going to break down exactly why it is that my mind has been changed, what

some of the research has to say about the nature of a friendship between X's and why it's probably not a good idea based on principles of attraction and social psychology, but also the, you know, often deeply emotional reasons that we try and can. convince ourselves that we can be the exception and ultimately the consequences of that. I also do want to talk about the instances where you might not have a choice. You're in the same friendship group. You co-parent. You work together.

You run a business. You share assets. Whatever it is, there are situations where it's, you know, it's not up to us. How exactly can we work through those unique circumstances, the best that we can. you know, since that first episode came out, so many of you have reached out to me and wanted a follow-up. And they, you know, you wanted to know whether my opinion has changed. It most certainly has. And I've definitely also become more informed, both through experience and also just a deeper look at what's factual and what's evidence-based. So hopefully I can bestow some of that

wisdom onto you. Without further ado, let's get into the nitty-gritty of maintaining a friendship with your ex and why that's probably not always going to be a good idea. I feel as if a lot of us end a relationship with this hope that we can stay friends. You know, it's almost a bit of a cliche that you hear a lot. You know, yeah, we broke up, but we're going to stay friends. We're going to try and stay friends. Who amongst that hasn't said that before? And I'm obviously included, very much included in that boat.

We have this real sense that we can kind of keep things friends. and still remain in each other's lives, despite all of those who have tried before us, we can be the exception. And I think primarily the reason we think that is because the idea of going from a relationship to a friendship is a lot easier to digest than going from a relationship to nothing. That leap into the abyss just kind of feels way too mentally painful for us to grasp onto in the midst of a lot of other feelings. The notion that this person could suddenly not be in our lives anymore

when they were probably one of the most important people to us only a few hours, a few days, a few weeks ago, that is really, really horrifying. It's a big adjustment. Of course, you know, if an ex cheated, if something horrific happened, if there was like an all-out explosion, it's a lot easier to make that call and to just be like, I never want to see that person again

because their true colours... You know, they are very, very real in that moment. There is no forgiveness. There is no moving on. But in those relationships where nothing drastic has happened, you know, it's more of a slow realization. That's where you get into trouble. The kind of breakups that I think best lend us to believing that we can stay friends

with our exes of firstly those in which we were friends to begin with, you know, If you initially had that foundation of platonic intimacy, I think moving into a romantic space and then having to exit it and maybe losing that friendship as well, it's just such a loss. However, I do think that once you have a romantic relationship with someone, the very core, the very nature of that relationship has been changed. It's a different dynamic now.

it's never going to be the same. And that's something that we all kind of have to, you know, accept or expect when we first start dating a friend. Once you move into that territory, I think it's very hard to exit it in a way that is not painful and in which no one's going to be hurt. Another example, I think, of the kinds of relationships where we really think we can stay friends with someone is when the relationship is just fizzled. I often think that, you know, when it's just kind of like, oh, I don't really have feelings for you anymore. Yeah, I mean neither. You're kind of like, okay, well, maybe we're better off as friends. But suddenly, and I see this a lot, in the aftermath, this person is like more exciting to you.

You know, while you were in a relationship with them, you didn't have feelings for them. Things were fading. But then suddenly they're off limits. Suddenly, it's exciting. It's known in psychology as reactance theory, this sense that when we feel like we're about to lose something, or we're not going to have the same access to something, or our freedom around something is about to be limited, i.e. you can no longer call them, text them, cuddle them, be with them.

When we finally start to realize that, that they're off limits, this often causes us to almost try harder to bring the relationship back. or to restore what we had before because there is this very natural and psychological aversion to loss. I have a friend who is going through this at the moment. You know, she was with her ex for a couple of years and she basically confessed that she had really just lost feelings for him. She didn't see him in a romantic way anymore.

And then they broke up and suddenly she was like, well, this whole wave of feelings suddenly hit me again. and now they're kind of sleeping with each other, they're doing all these things that they used to do in the early days of their relationship. And I kind of said to her very lovingly, of course, I was like, you can either trust the version of yourself three months ago who knew that this wasn't what you wanted

and who knew the relationship wasn't right. You can also trust the version of you in six months from now who's likely going to be thinking the same thing or you can try it out. You can try and get back together. You can try and see if this pseudo-frienship slash kind of relationship is going to work. And you can learn whatever lesson you need to learn from that. But I don't think that that's going to be the outcome that you want.

And maybe I sound like a cynic. But I think when we have only been broken up with someone for a little while, trying to be friends with them, the only recent memory of them that we have is in a romantic, sense. So we're going to fall back into that pattern of recreating and rehearsing all the romantic actions and feelings that we used to have for each other because that is what you can access the easiest. That is the most present and recent thing in your memory. I think the final situation where we try and be friends with an ex and this was my situation is where you both kind of

ended the relationship being like, we just need to work in ourselves. That's the reason that we can't be together. You know, nothing was explicitly wrong about the relationship itself. It's just that neither of you were really your best people in those circumstances. So you choose to stay friends. That is basically what happened to me with the ex that I brought on the podcast. And slowly over time, I realized that this idea that, you know, we just needed to work on ourselves. It's not that we weren't right for each other. It's just that we were both in different spaces. That's That wasn't actually the reason that we broke up. That was just the reason that was easiest to tell myself, at least.

And what I ended up realizing was, you know, if I couldn't be my best self in a relationship with this person, if it was the case that I didn't feel supported, they didn't make me better, they didn't make me brighter, such that I felt I needed to leave the relationship in order to achieve those things, what was a friendship with him? going to provide me that was different. Why, you know, why did I need him to still be in my life? If when he was incredibly present in my life, my life actually wasn't that great. It's a really interesting thing to realize.

And inevitably, there was this influence that he definitely had over my life that extended into our friendship that ended up creating so much chaos and so much sadness and so much just like anger for so many people that I think really revealed to me that the reason I was telling myself was not the true reason. Of course, when you are bonded with someone, when you share core memories with them, it's very hard as well to recover from losing that important connection overnight as humans. Connection is the thing that just means the most to us in some ways. We have a natural tendency to not want to lose that.

So it's going to be painful. It's going to be hard. but aiming for a friendship in my mind is like putting a Band-Aid on a bullet hole, like not to use an outdated metaphor, but it's a bullet hole that you are actually going to have to look at at some stage. The Band-Aid is not healing it, it's just hiding it. Something I have really taken from my past relationships is that when you pursue a friendship, you are actually just delaying your heartbreak by demoting the relationship rather than ending it. And I just want to say that one more time.

You were delaying your heartbreak by demoting the relationship rather than ending it when you know you should. You're basically putting off the inevitability that this relationship was not right for a reason and that there is a reason you shouldn't be in each other's lives. You can either experience that right now and then in six months' time, feel healed, feel better about it, or you can spend the next six months trying to be friends with that person and just, delay that grieving process, that healing process, the feelings and the reactions that are associated with heartbreak, they aren't going to change. It just depends on when you experience them, not if you experience them. So that's my opinion. You can't be friends with your ex. It's not

possible. It's a bad idea. What is my evidence for that? Well, we are going to talk about all of that and so much more after this short break. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2% I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of

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Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. For such a strong opinion, I think you guys would know that I have some evidence for holding this belief. You know, I'm not one to just say something and be like, yep, and that's true because I believe it. And so it must be. But there is a lot of evidence. There is a lot of psychology. There have been a lot of recent research papers that have pointed to, you know, the difficulty, the innate difficulty of transitioning a romantic relationship into a platonic friendship. The first reason why this is so hard is that often some form of romantic attachment still remains.

And this means that you are going to find it really hard to move on and pursue not only a new relationship, but also fully embrace your single life whilst the kind of lingering presence of your ex as a friend remains. So there was a 2017 study conducted by researchers from the Department of Psychology at the University of Kansas. By the way, the University of Kansas has an amazing psychology department. I've been realizing this from all the really cool research that they are putting out. I don't know why I felt the need to say that, but just I'm loving what they're doing at the moment. They put out this research paper, and in this paper they found that when lingering, romantic or sexual desires exist, is really challenging to push those feelings aside in favor of a friendship.

and most people actually find themselves returning to those feelings time and time again, even if they believe that it's no longer the case for them. Even if they're like, no, no, I'm totally over it. It's hard to one learn that association. As a result of that, participants really reported that it had become very difficult for them to imagine themselves with someone else. They found it difficult to connect with new people when they were actively dating. and it also resulted in some pretty obsessive behaviours. So even though people were like, yeah, yeah, I'm just friends with my ex.

They're nothing more than just a friend. They would check on them on social media more than they would do with their other regular friends. They would message them when they knew they shouldn't. They weren't able to stop thinking about them. When you have this friendship with an ex, I think it limits your ability to fully move on. And with that, it limits your ability to eventually, find someone better, find a more successful relationship, find a relationship that is right for you. Firstly, because our mind is constantly in a state of comparing our current partner with our previous

partner, but also because that friendship and the exact specifics of it can create tension in a new relationship. You know, think about, think about it this way. You go on a first date with someone and you're really getting along and they're just amazing and you go on a few more dates and it's just working. On like the fourth or fifth day, they say, oh, come and meet my friends. And you meet their friends. You like pull up to their place and he goes, oh, this is my friend Jessica. Actually, we dated for three years, but you know, we're just friends now. Would that make you insecure? Would that make you question things? I think that it would. You might say that it wouldn't. And you know what, you're a much better person than me, it would bother me.

And when you maintain a relationship with your ex, you're making it so that you are the partner in that situation, making it very difficult for anybody new to not feel like there is some competition that they have to crack you, that there is mistrust. And there is that addition of retroactive jealousy, right, feeling jealous over previous relationships and kind of like a resentment and are questioning, like are there lingering feelings? do I have something to worry about? And that kind of doubt is not something that is particularly helpful in the early days of a new relationship. When you maintain a relationship with your ex, what you are essentially doing is putting any new person who wants to walk in to your life, you're putting them through that experiment.

You're putting them through those line of questionings. And it can actually really sabotage your chances at future love. So another study, because there are actually a surprisingly. wonderful amount of studies on relationships between X's and that transition into friendship. This study was conducted a bit earlier in 2012 and it was published in the Journal of Social Psychology and I think Personality Science. It examined how lingering attachment to ex-partners goes on to affect your current relationships. So they conducted this longitudinal study and it followed a group of individuals who had recently gone through a breakup over a six-month period

as they entered a new relationship. And they asked them at two-month intervals to report how they felt about their current relationship with this new person. How was it going? Were they happy? Was all well? And then they also had to report whether they still felt any lingering emotional attachment to their ex-partner.

Unsurprisingly, the more attached someone felt to an ex, the more their current relationship suffered. There was even an indication for some that maybe the new partner was just a substitute for their old partner. And that just never feels nice. I don't want to be that person for someone. So I don't want to make someone that person for me. And I think this research in particular really indicates why you need space, why you need

boundaries. Yes, you might have unfinished business relating to children, work, friendship. But that doesn't mean that you guys need to be friends. And that doesn't mean that they have to have a continuing active role in your life. Let's also be, you know, just completely honest with ourselves here for a second. Is this really going to be a good friendship? Your friendship with your ex. Is that going to be the same kind of friendship you have with your girlfriends or your close mates? They may have been a great partner. You know, it might have just, not worked out. But A, despite you thinking that you guys could be friends, you never know what someone else is thinking. So even if you have mentally moved into the entirely platonic realm,

you cannot always tell if they have. That's something that I learned. But B, they aren't really a friend, are they? The way that you would interact with your real friends, I think that there is a natural difference there. And the best way to realize that is using this really simple thought exercise. Imagine that they get a new boyfriend, a new girlfriend, a new partner. Would your friendship still be the exact same that it is right now? Could you still ask them for the same things? Could you go to them for the same level of support? You know, would it change if they got a new partner? I think it definitely would. It most certainly would because you've fulfilled a specific role for them, the role of a romantic partner. And for most of us, that is a limited position that can

only be filled by one person. That's not the same as a friendship, is it? You know, you can have amazing friends who will hopefully, you will always be able to trust, who love you, who care about you. And that friendship, those organic, normal, natural friendships, they are not conditional on them finding someone better. You would not be replaced. Your friendship wouldn't be demoted. It wouldn't be neglected if your person was suddenly to start dating someone new, maybe in the natural sense, but it's not like you were the reason. It's not like your previous relationship was the reason that suddenly you can't be as close as you were. I just think that friendships should leave us feeling seen. They should leave us feeling safe and included and loved and

held and just like happy. And I don't think I have ever been friends with an ex who has made me feel that way. It's always been that the friendship has made me feel desperate and anxious. Yes, it was a bit exciting, but there was also this undertone consistently of longing, of not being able to forget the past. And eventually that was what hurt us. So a group of researchers actually went about trying to determine whether a friendship with an ex would actually be a good idea, whether it actually is a good friend.

friendship based on some very factual evidence-based indicators. And they basically measured, you know, how do people feel after hanging out with their ex? Does the number of positive interactions outweigh the number of negative interactions? When people come to them afterwards in the study, are they primarily lingering on things that they weren't happy with about the interaction? Or did they just feel ultimately really positive? And the way they studied with this was that they surveyed both male and females who,

reported having a friend who was once a romantic partner and a friend who was just purely platonic. And both types of friendships were kind of compared and they asked them after interactions with each person, how do you feel? Do you feel good after this? Do you feel that this relationship is quite a quality relationship? Are you happy? And the results indicate a significant difference. People felt really, really happy in their friendships with their platonic friends. They would leave those interactions and be like, gosh, that was fun. I had a great time. I feel really bright and light and easy and breezy. But when they exited an interaction with their ex who was their friend, they actually typically reported more negative experiences. They were more likely to say negative things about this person,

and their mood was more likely to decline. So it's not like this friendship is even actually giving us anything other than that it's just this lingering attachment to someone we once cared about. There is, of course, and this is the final thing we really do need to speak to, there is the addition of sexual attraction, which we haven't spoken about yet. I'm sure a lot of it is in the back of our, it's in the back of our minds for sure. The real question is, you know, how long does it actually take for that sexual desire, for that sexual attraction towards someone to disappear? And the bigger question is, does it ever actually disappear? You know, this level of mutual desire and attraction definitely lingers. That is why so many of us end up, you know,

perhaps sleeping with our ex again out of, you know, I don't know, sexual nostalgia, but also a need for comfort, and that is not platonic in my mind. You know, speaking from experience, I do think that like sexual desire and your level of attraction towards something, towards someone, sorry, it does fade over time. Like, I look at my exes now and I'm like, no, don't. Don't. want any piece of that I could never I feel nothing towards you I'm not attracted to you in the slightest but if you are freshly out of the relationship you haven't crossed into that threshold yet maybe once you do you can be friends when no sexual desire lingers but even then like think about all of the above reasons think about all of that evidence that says this is not a good idea

I want to offer just one more reason here as well and this reason is the most profound to me as to why we cannot be friends with our ex and it's that it jeopardizes the healing process and that is the most important thing that we need to prioritize in the wake of a heartbreak or a breakup being friends with your ex just means it takes longer to grieve and longer to recover it's going to make it hard for you to move on it's not going to make you feel great about yourself and inevitably it influences our ability to find closure closure is just going to be such a buzzword in the episode. It's basically our mind's ability to put an end to an ongoing narrative or story that it's occurring in our brain. It is our brain's ability to find a conclusion that makes sense

to us and makes sense based on our values and our sense of self. Essentially it means that we can look at a relationship and say, you know, this didn't work out for these reasons and actually that was a good thing because of these reasons. So let's close this chapter. We'll get on to writing our next chapter. There is a sense of peace. A lot of people report like a sense of silence, a sense of, I was about to say closure, but that's the exact way we're trying to describe. I think you know it when you feel it. Well, when an ex becomes a friend, it means that there is no closing that chapter. They're going to keep showing up in all these future chapters. The story never finishes. When we go no contact with an X, when we limit connection, we do still naturally have all of

these questions that are going to come up at the end of the relationship. Why didn't this work? Did they ever love me? Is there a future? Like, what did I do wrong? What did they do wrong? Naturally, we have questions. But the thing is, is that we have to find answers to those questions for ourselves.

In the best way, we know how. Like, we just have to be able to provide ourselves with the closure, knowing that there is nothing that anyone else can say that's going to bring peace unless. it makes sense to you. So that's really important because that need for closure is a really powerful driver of decisions. It's a really powerful driver of behaviors because in our search for closure, what we're really looking for is an end to confusion and ambiguity.

And in that search for an end to our ambiguity and a search for clarity, our brain is going to keep returning to a scenario over and over again until it receives that. When we go no contact, our need for closure drives us inwards. When we are friends with our ex, our need for closure will drive us to them because they are available. The questions never stop and neither does our search for answers, but there they are. They're right there. You can go and ask them those questions. You can go to that person and feel like you're going to get a release when really there's nothing they can say to you.

That is the core part about closure. It is an entirely personally motivated and personally driven. experience, but we get confused thinking that someone else can give it to us. And I remember having this exact experience with someone I dated when I was like 19 or 20. And, you know, it didn't work, but we tried to stay friends. And it just meant that every single week, you know, I had more questions. I felt differently. I had all these things come up.

But because we were still quote unquote friends, I could go to him with these questions. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got

Right wrong, many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people? I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

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I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've just That's correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. So. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the

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Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good. person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. In 2023,

former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Gregal, Westby and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I could be like, hey, can we chat? Can we talk? I need closure. And actually, the excuse of closure was really an excuse to stay friends. Not to stay friends, but it was an excuse to remain in contact with him and to not feel like I had lost him.

Because that was really, really, it's a sad thing to acknowledge. It was only when I cut off contact for my. own good that I got my closure because I realized it would never come from him. And that's what I really want for you. I want the peace. I want the certainty. I want the liberation. I want you to know you're going to be okay without them. And that's when you really start to heal. Now, I've been teasing this for a while. There are some friendships where this is not possible. Unfortunately, you still have to be in their vicinity. So what do we do in those situations? But we're going to talk about all of that. and much, much more after this short break.

When we have an ex with whom we maybe share a lot of mutual friends, we are bound to see each other every day at work, we have children, all of those things. What do we do with the relationship then, when it is very hard to step away completely, almost impossible? What do we do when we feel forced to stay friends with them? It's a really interesting article from the author, Marissa Franco, she wrote this book called Plotonic, How the Science of Attachment

can help you make and keep friends. And she shares three questions that she asks her clients when they say, hey, I think I want to be friends with my ex. And these questions are basically a way to make you understand when it's necessary and why that's okay and how to go on with a friendship even when it's painful, but also when you don't have the same reasons that some of us do. So the questions that she asked, number one, why do you want to stay in touch with your ex? If it's for practical reasons, you know, you can move on to the next question. If you answered, you know, I need to stay in touch with them because I'm going to see them every single day through work. All my friends are his friends or her friends. Like, there's just no way of me exiting this relationship

completely without losing so much more, then I think that a friendship is kind of necessary, but I want you to notice that wording that she says here. Why do you want to stay in touch with your ex? Stay in touch. Doesn't necessarily mean like a friendship of the same varieties you have with your best girlfriend or your childhood pal.

Maybe just staying in touch is all that's required if there is some practical reason for being in each other's lives. Now, if it's simply because you, you know, why do you want to stay in touch? I just want to know what's going on. I want to know if they're dating. I want to keep tabs. Not a good enough reason. You don't pass go.

You can't be friends with your ex. The second question that she asks is, are you in a healthy place to stay in touch with your ex? I do think, regardless of the practical requirements, some level of healing does need to occur before you can regain contact, regardless of what is pulling you back together. You know, there is some level of healing that needs to happen before things go back to the way they were. Obviously, it's going to get ugly if you don't do this because you're not going to have the delineation between the relationship, romantic relationship you previously shared and this new chapter of friendship. So you'll fight the way that you did when you were together. You'll have the same tension, the same arguments, the same resentment.

And so you don't have any chance at friendship in those situations. You need space before you reenter the relationship. I always recommend to people who share a friendship group in particular because I get a lot of questions about that. Like, for the first month or so, I really want you to avoid the parties. I only want you to see your friends one and one. I don't want you to see them and I know it feels like a sacrifice on your behalf. But one month versus losing all those friendships entirely is well worth it. Give yourself some space and some time before you jump back in because then you have dissoned.

instance, you have time to process, to reassess, to reflect, before things just return to normal. You can work through the resentment. You can figure out what your next chapter represents to you. You can reason with why the relationship needed to end without being constantly confronted by visions and images of this person. So once you get to a place where you feel more stable and you've acknowledged and come to terms the romantic chapter is closed, then you can stay in touch. The final question that Dr. Franco asked, though, is what do you want your platonic relationship with your ex to look like? And this is the most important question of them all, because it cannot look the way that it once did. You are going to need some concrete, strong boundaries if this is the path that you need to take.

This is what those boundaries could look like. This is the rules that you could have with you on your ex so that you are on your ex so that you are on. friendly terms, but not friends. So some of the rules are you will, you know, we will, sorry, not you. We, as a couple who previously dated, we are not going to have discussions about our past relationship. We are not going to rehash previous experiences. That is not something that we discuss anymore. We are going to limit physical affection, no cuddling, no sleeping over, no sleeping with each other. That is a hard rule. We will only see each other when someone else is present. Now this is a great one if you are required to like be friends with your ex because of

children, friendships, work. It means that you know, you don't have any of that one on one time that's going to feel like the quality time you had in a relationship. There is this important barrier between you two. There is an important reason in that reason being other people that you maintain contact. You know, you still see each other in the group. You still see each other around your kids, that is it. Number four, you can agree to unfollow each other on social media. You can still be friendly, but you don't need to have the same access to know what they're doing. I also think that that stops lingering feelings of like, huh, are they moving on without me? Have they moved on before me? Like, what are they doing and feeling like, you know, their behavior is an insult to you? It stops

that from happening. Finally, this rule is really, really important. they cannot be your go-to person for an emotional crisis. Yes, that's what they once were. It can feel very natural to be like, oh, they just knew so much about me. It's so hard to explain this to someone else. I really want you to do it anyways. They can no longer be the person you are emotionally dependent on. And these are really, really all good examples of how to maintain a friendship

when practicality requires you to without stepping into a more serious terrain. You should also really have a stopping point for when the friends. friendship can't continue. What is the line that neither of you can cross that if you did, the friendship would most certainly be over, it would be done? Is it sex? Is it fighting and arguing over things that happened in the past? Is it when one of you gets a new partner? Is that when you have to agree to see-sale contact? You know, you have to have that line. Otherwise, your behavior can be as erratic as you'd like and there's nothing to stop me going back. There's nothing to stop you guys from maintaining this weird emotional connection.

Are they friends? Are they dating? Are they something in between? That's not what we want. The one thing we do not want is ambiguity. We want clarity. Either you are in a relationship or you are friends and that friendship has boundaries and it has rules. I think this is a really good way to go about it. You know, if you're still really struggling in those circumstances, you're finding it hard to move on, finding it hard to get through things and finding it hard to find closure because they are still around. I think you should listen to this episode that I did called How to Move On from Someone You Can't Stop Thinking About. It's really, really valuable in these situations to get you to that next chapter in your healing journey. Maybe you're at this point of stagnation.

You've hit a roadblock, a barricade, a blockade, a blockade. This episode, that episode, How to Get Over Someone You Can't Stop Thinking About is great for pushing through that. there's also another episode called Why do we need closure? Do we need closure? Is closure overrated? I cannot remember what it's called. I'll put it in the episode description. Also a really, really valuable one for getting through this period. And neither of those are necessarily about being friends with your ex.

But they are about getting to a point of healing and clarity where A, you no longer want to be friends with your ex or B, you realize that even if you have to, there's ways to go about it. It's going to be healthy for you and healthy. for your future. So I really hope that this revised version of this episode has been satisfying. I know that I have completely changed too and I've gone from, yeah, you totally can be friends with your ex and here's my ex and we're going to prove it to absolutely not, don't do that. And it's honestly because of experience and it's because I've witnessed what that inevitably

leads to and honestly some of the pain that it causes, not just between us but for other people. So, yes, thank you for listening to this episode, especially if you listen to the first one. Hopefully, I've been able to convince you. Hopefully, I've given you some good evidence for my opinion. And I just hope that you've enjoyed this episode. Until next time, it would be great if you guys could chuck us a follow. Make sure that you are around for when new episodes come out. It's almost December, and you guys know what that means.

That means 12 days of guests. we have some really cool guests coming along. Make sure you are following us on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast and that you've checked out the pre-order link for the book. There'll be one in the link in the description. It's a great way to support the show and to also, you know, get your hands on a lot of my thoughts in written form. Person in Progress, it's coming out in April 2025.

You can see the cover. You can pre-order it. The link will be in the description. Until next time, stay safe. Be kind. Be gentle. to yourself, especially if you are going through a breakup or a heartbreak right now, I'm sending you lots of love.

And until next time, we will talk very, very soon. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to.

Listen and learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same. same thing.

Greg Lesbian. Michael Mancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%.

I break down the number. the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands.

I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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