The Psychology of your 20s - 253. Why spirituality is essential for our mental health ft. Dr Lisa Miller

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

For our very first guest of the holiday season, I invited on Dr Lisa Miller - a professor at Columbia University, author, clinical psychologist and researcher to discuss her profound work on the intersection between spirituality and mental health.  Our spiritual health is often the dimension of wellbeing we neglect the most, but in this episode we uncover why having a strong belief system, sense of purpose, oneness and path is invaluable, especially in our 20s. This includes:  The distinction between religion and spirituality What brain scans say about the importance of a higher power or meaning  3 practices to improve your spiritual core  Why your spiritual core is so essential in your 20s  Why we resist spirituality and how this harms us  Dr Lisa was an incredible and inspiring guest, her book is called The Awakened Brain.  You can follow her her: @dr.lisamiller   PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/  Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast For business: [e-mail]    The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. When we talk about health, I think our first thought is physical health, you know, what food we consume, what exercise we do. how our body feels, what our doctor might say. Then we might think about mental health, psychologically, emotionally, where do we sit, social health, financial health, the list goes on. But rarely do we prioritize our spiritual health, when in fact, spiritual health is really linked

to all these other pillars of our well-being. It might not sound as scientific or real as these other dimensions of our health, I think, based on what a lot of society has taught us over the years, but it's really valuable to have something you believe in, especially in your 20s as you're blooming and blossoming into this new person, you have to have something that you have faith in, a sense of meaning, a value system in order to have a fulfilled life. And it's definitely something that I've begun prioritizing more, even though I'm not a religious person anymore. I think that life is just a lot more enjoyable and our sense of purpose is a lot more profound when you can identify a connection

between yourself and the world and what you're here for. So I really want to talk about this today and bring the spirituality and the science and the mental health together to kind of understand how an engaged spiritual life and a belief system is so special in our 20s. And of course I had to bring on an incredible guest, Dr. Lisa Miller, she is a professor at Columbia University at clinical psychologist and a scientist, and she focuses on the intersection between spiritual health and our well-being. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so happy to be here, and I just really love the way you get right down to what truly matters. These in our 20s, we lay the groundwork for the rest of our lives, and it deserves really being truthful and

getting down to it. So thank you. Oh, absolutely. I really appreciate that. Yeah, not missing around you. I've kind of already given you a little introduction. Do you want to talk more about your path to where you are now, what you do, who you are as a person? Sure. So I'm a clinical scientist. I'm a professor at Columbia University of 25 years. And I have over these years published probably 150 peer review scientific articles on spirituality, who we really are spiritually. and the relationship between our own personal spirituality and our bigger lives, our health, our wellness, our recovery, our strength and character, our thriving. But I'll also share with you, you know, when I talk about how I got here, when I was in my 20s, I was on a spiritual hunt. I mean, I was really on a quest in my 20s.

And it was not easy. So if you really want to know how I got here to be a life. long scientist and someone who's devoted themselves to this work, it starts in my 20s. You know, I was 19 years old, 20 years old, starting out, and I really started to wonder, you know, what the purpose of life really was. And this was no joke. I'd always been kind of a thoughtful person, but I really started to wonder. It sort of was just tug from within. And that tug became about a hundred times more fierce when there was a bump in my life. When people have different bumps, it doesn't matter. It turns out what the bump might be.

But for me, my true love, the first time I'd ever, ever been in love, completely broke my heart. I mean, so here was this guy. I'd fallen in love for the first time. And I thought he was perfect. You know, he was in my eyes more handsome than a Greek sculpture. He was so interesting. He was you know, I was mesmerized. And he said, you know what? I really think I'm falling in love with you. And I said, you love me. He's like, yeah, I love you. And that was after three months. And I found the person I'm going to marry. And then after he broke up with me. Boom, five months. And I was shocked. It didn't make sense. Like I said, but you, you love me. He's like, no, I did. And I said, but now you don't love me. And he's like, no. I did. And I said, but now you don't love me. And he's like, no. No, not now. I'm like, well, you did then, but you don't now. How can that be? He's like, well, there was a change. And I thought, well, if you can change, you know, does love really matter? Is love real? I mean, if you can love me, truly love me and then truly not love me is love real. And ever more, like, I started to think, well, wait a minute. What is our human condition that we can so-called fall out of love? Is there any permanence or stability to us? You know, what can you really bank on. Can you trust people in life? And this sent me on a huge spiral about what is the nature of life, what is real, are humans real, is love real? And these were not questions that were somehow a symptom of pathology. These were genuine, real questions. So what do you think I did? I went to a therapist.

And I went first therapist and I said, listen, you know, I have really been on a downward spiral since John broke up with me. I don't know if love's real. I don't know if we can really count on each other. Do we just change overnight? Are we so stable or real? And I really wonder, you know, I used to really believe in God or a higher power, whatever one's word might be, the universe. And now I don't know how much I can really count even on that. Is God real? It's the universe, in the sense of being loving and there for us personally real. And the therapist looked at my story and said, so you don't know if God's really there for you. And I said, yeah, I don't know if God's real. And she said, well, was your father there for you when you were little? And I'm like,

wait a minute. No, I don't mean that my father isn't there for me. I mean, I don't know God is there for me. And she can only tell that one story that were nothing more than the paths of our childhood. So, you know, I thought this isn't for me. And I went, fired her, which she should do. She always fire a therapist if it's not right. And I went to a new therapist. And I told the same story and she said, okay, so you don't know if God's there for you. Do you think you have low self-esteem? Do you think that you have sort of negative self-talk? And I said, no, I'm fine with myself. I don't know if God's real. Right. And this turned out to be what I have now come decades later to know is the most important work that we do, which is figure out.

the spiritual reality and who we are in the spiritual reality. Mental health didn't know that. Psychologists, therapists didn't know that. College counselors didn't know that. They thought that this big quest was actually just a symptom of depression. But now we know, you know, hundreds of peer-review scientific articles later, that this is not just, you know, a sidebar of depression. This is literally how we are built. We are hardwired, our brain, our genes, to grow up. into our 20s and need to quest and we're even better at it in our 20s. I'm listening to that story and just being like, wow, can completely relate, have seen this happen so many times, have seen it happen in myself. And the listeners of the show

will know a couple months ago, I went through an incredibly similar experience where I was like, okay, what's the meaning of life? What happens after we die? How do you go on knowing that it's finite, yada, yada, yada, an existential crisis. And so I went to a therapist and she asked me if I had watched any scary movies as a phrase. So it's so funny, right? And then they were like, oh, we'll just up your antidepressants as a way to combat this. And I think it was kind of like the first line of defense. I accepted it. And then now I've gotten to a place much like you have where it's like, actually, this is an upending question. If I don't answer it now, I'll have to answer it eventually.

I'll have to answer it in three years time, in my 30s, in my 40s. And my mom said something to me. She was like, this is something that you're going to continue to struggle with until you have a belief system that you can rely on, not one that any institution or a therapist has told you. And you gave chills because you are so deep and so wise. And here I am with tears in my eyes because you knew the truth, that this was a very real, very personal.

profound. It's a sacred quest. And I'm deep moved that you knew exactly what it was. You didn't let a so-called expert tell you that your experience was somehow anything other than profound. Thank you. And it's hard, you know, because when you have such a scientific and a psychological perspective, that is where you look first. And I think people might be listening to this being like, where does God come in here? You know, we're talking about God. We're talking about Allah. maybe these big figures. One of the biggest questions and I think conundrums people have when they think about spirituality is, does that mean I have to be religious? So what in your mind is the difference between spirituality and religion? Can you have like a non-denominational quest?

What you just shared was a deeply profound spiritual quest that is actually hardwired in every single one of us. So what your journey reveals needing to answer the profound questions, an existential crisis, as you put it, the very nature of our existence. This is in our birthright. And we now have a very good science of 20 years that says just as we're physical, emotional, cognitive beings, we are all spiritual beings. And we even have found the circuits in the brain using MRI studies that are the spiritual circuit. And it turns out that every single person on earth, every 7.2 billion people on earth, all have the same spiritual circuits. So spirituality is inborn. It's innate. And we know this ever more through the lens of a twin study. We look at twins raised together and twins raised apart. And we can

determine whether any human capacity is inborn or environmentally formed. And spirituality is innate. religion, whether we are Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Jane, whatever our tradition may be, right? Religion is not inborn. Religion is environmentally transmitted. So the texts and the ceremonies and the teachings are a gift of the environment. But spirituality is a deep, inborn human capacity. And because it's inborn, it has natural phases of development, including the most precious phase, which is in our 20s, we become independent spiritual beings on our own terms, on our own inner heart. We need to figure out what's true and not true, the inner compass of spiritual reality. And what does that feel like when you kind of come to that point,

whatever religion or non-religion or agnostic atheist environment you've been raised in, does it always look like a spiritual crisis or does it look like an awakening? Well, your question is very beautiful because most people at some point have some type of struggle or crisis, the testing of everything they've been taught or told against the deep knowing of their own inner heart. You know, what is the resonance? And so whether it is at 22 or 29, you know, somewhere in the 20s, there is, wait a minute, everything you ever told me, you know, Pastor, Priest, Amon, Rabbi, Grandma, Grandpa,

Mom, Dad, I need to know it as true against my own inner compass. That's called spiritual emergence. And it is a mark of entering into adulthood. It is an incredibly, is the cornerstone of adulthood. So that is absolutely essential to emerging as our own person in the world. But you're also raising another,

coolly beautiful and important point, which is sometimes, you know, in addition to that, someone who's been on a quest, someone who's struggled or someone who will someday struggle, also may have moments of extraordinary awakening. You know, suddenly you might have a dream, or you could have a mystical experience or a synchronicity when two events are way too unprobabilistic to have just happened by chance. They go together, deeply. And that type of spiritual experience in the world is a gift. That is a way of, you know, the universe who I call God, your higher power, the force of life saying, you are never alone. You are guided, you are loved, and you are held. And it's so beautiful the way that you talk about it is like,

it doesn't need to be in a box. There is no one right answer for what is real. It's what calls you to see a higher purpose and a higher meaning. Whatever that comes to you as. And it's a highly individual experience, which I think is what sometimes can frustrate people. It's like, well, I just want to know the answer. I just want to know what's real and what is the one truth. And I think the thing about spirituality is it's not about having the one answer. It's about having the structure and the belief system, the same way you believe in so many other things. You believe that you are alive. if you believe that you have a purpose, you believe that you are capable of being loved. It's like you believe that there is something more.

What have you seen in your studies when people aren't able to find that belief? Or perhaps they continue to suppress their need for something more? You put it so beautifully because spirituality is not a theory, right? it is our ability to perceive into the deeper nature of life. Spirituality is a seat of awareness. And so what you're describing is really, it's almost like a sacred operating manual. How do I look into the world?

What is my stance? And that is a deeply personal journey to arrive into our own dialogue with the universe. And I can share with you that when we do that work, we are profoundly protected against addiction, against depression, against some forms even of harm or suicide. There's nothing more protective against this real sort of global epidemic of the diseases of despair in 20-year-olds. Nothing is more profoundly protective as our deep spiritual seat of awareness. So again, it may or may not be through one's religion that one finds that, that deep, personal sense of quest to have our bearings in life. What is life showing me now? What is my

higher power asking or revealing to me now? What does that synchronicity mean? Was that a sacred dream? Was that a mystical experience? And knowing our spiritual experience to be true, that is real. Know it's true. Take it as extremely important. Reflect on it and then act on it. So there's no way of knowing that is as strong and sure and helps us along as much as our spiritual way of knowing. Actually, could we do a brief 90-second practice where people have a chance to engage their spiritual awareness? Absolutely. We love anything practical on this show, please. Beautiful.

Okay, beautiful. So I'm going to invite you to just, it's a 90-second practice, clear out your inner space, close your eyes, an invitation if you wish, to close your eyes. and take five big, beautiful breaths to open up your inner chamber. And in your inner chamber, I invite you to set before you a table. This is your table. Into your table, you may invite anyone living or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind. Anyone living or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind.

And with them all sitting there, ask them if, they love you. And now you may invite your higher self, the part of you that is so much more than anything you might have done or not done, anything that you might have or not have, your true, eternal higher self. And ask you if you love you. And now finally, you may invite your higher power, however you know, whatever word is yours, your higher. And you are your higher. power and ask if they love you. And now with all of those people sitting there right now, what do they need to tell you now? What do you need to know? What do they need to share right now? Wow. I feel very tingling. It's quite a beautiful exercise. Have you seen people like come out of

that and just be like, I have a complete new truth. Like I completely have rethought. how I think about myself. I've seen people deeply moved and awakened because they realize, yes, you are spiritual. This is you. You are spiritual. And no one can ever take this away from you. Wow. It was so interesting when you were thinking about the table. I also feel like I was thinking about this big family dinner table. And it wasn't just people, but it was like pets as well. I don't know why. I was like, oh, yeah, and there's my childhood dog and there's my current dog. and they're, you know, sitting at this table. I don't know why. It's just like, oh, of course, people I want to see. So I feel about my dog. I love my dog and I feel that we're all souls,

that our dogs are souls and we're here together. I know. It's interesting how, like, that thought exercise gives you a new perspective on what to you, like, constitutes a soul and what to you constitutes love and how that's reflected. It's a beautiful exercise. So at my table, it's not always the same people every time, right? And what's nice about this practice is that we can bring to counsel. This is your counsel, right? What is on our heart at any given moment. So if someone is really, you know, I felt very unkind to me or is not, or has betrayed

me or working against me, I can bring that experience and even that person in my mind to counsel. So for example, if you're, even if you've got some. some huge decision, perhaps after a breakup or you're at a crossroads in terms of your career or some tragedy has happened. It is almost like you've got this perfect panel of everyone who represents love and joy and care and empathy to you who you can ask in your own mind without actually needing them there. Is that kind of the premise as well? Yes, beautifully put. Exactly. They are, this panel is always there for you. Always. And who shows up may change,

but you can ask them what is on your heart. And that's like one exercise I think that gets us in touch with a sense of spirituality, even if you don't think you have it, even if, you know, you have strange feelings about it that you've been conditioned to think. How else do we really begin to build out a spiritual core in a similar way. I feel like that's a great exercise for being like, okay, I've recognized that at my core, I do have a deep belief and a deep intrinsic sense of being present, being here, being loved. How do we make sure that carries with us in other parts of our life and begin to build like those pillars of what do I believe in? So that's a very beautiful question because we can have a moment, a breakthrough. It can be a

through a practice like we just shared here, the hosting council, or it could come to us spontaneously. We could be on a hike and see the sun on the lake and it's just so breathtakingly beautiful that we feel a sense of oneness. We feel a presence of God or the higher power, the universe. We can have moments of awakening. But the question is how to really integrate spirituality into our lives, how to really build what you were talking about earlier, which is a sacred operating manual, a way of being in the world, an understanding of how to engage day in and day out with the sacred presence for the universe. And that journey is, again, it doesn't happen in two days. It's really developed in our 20s if we give it the care and the love and the attention and the time. But we're

never, ever as good at it as we are in our 20s. So you have a gift right now. You have a gift right now. You are better in your 20s than in your 40s, 50s or 60s at being basically spiritual seekers, knowing in the heart what is true, knowing what's fake and hypocrisy, hungering for what is genuine and transcendent and not wanting something that is unworthy or shallow. You are built to be exquisite spiritual seekers. So there's no time like our 20s where we are, as good as building this deep stance in living, which means, you know, we can't control things in life and the world's getting more complex. We can't control the environment. We can't control the big office, all this. But we certainly can control a deep stance of spiritual quest. What is life

showing me now? What is life revealing to me now? Not why is this happening to me, but why is this happening for me? Start with a premise that your life is an incredible spiritual adventure and everything is a portal to incredible expansion and growth so nothing is a bummer everything is going to make you more not less even if it's hurt and it's not and it's not bad people there's plenty of bad people but it's not it doesn't matter if it we wanted it or not wanted it it's all part of the spiritual path and it'll all make us deeper and more profound. So nothing in your life is wasted. Nothing in your life is off the spiritual path. Everything is going in the end to make you more, not less. That's the first point. The second thing is people are

like, okay, well, how do I do this? And there's a lot of people going out right now and they go in retreats. Maybe they'll try ayahuasca. They'll have a breakthrough. Okay. And the question is, well, okay, there's a breakthrough, but what am I going to do next? And we don't want to turn around and go touch the stone two weeks later. You can't do ayahuasca every two weeks, right? You can't live a life that way. So how do you integrate spiritual breakthrough, whether it's through mystical experience or ayahuasca or prayer, or you've meditated or you've seen nature? And there's four pieces. There's four ingredients. May I get into it? Absolutely. Yes, please. Yes, please. So the way I think of it is four p's as a way to remember it. A practice of transcendence.

You know, whether it's some form of breathwork or prayer or meditation or being in nature, but some way of getting back to that deep sense that you saw when you saw light upon the ocean, when you had a mystical dream, when you held your counsel or practice. Number two is your people. So you've created here, this beautiful international community. You've created people, right, a place to go to and share spiritual life so that we're not at it alone. and the freedom and the authority to use our spiritual voice when we connect with one another. And I want to know you in the deepest way.

And I'm interested in your spiritual voice to our practice, our people. The third is the path. And that's where you started today, which is a way of understanding, you know, the biggest existential questions in life. How do I walk this earth? And I don't mean, you know, am I going to become a teacher or a banker or an entertainer? I mean, as a soul on earth, how do I walk this earth? And then finally, this is something you said in our first two minutes together, our purpose, my ultimate purpose on earth.

So you're practice your people, your past, and your purpose. That's a fully integrated spiritual life. Wow. And even like applying that on my own, on what I've experienced quite recently, this is quite a profound conversation because I feel like it came at a perfect time. I think about, you know, my practice in many ways is like making this podcast and it's thinking quite deeply about things which can eventually be confronting. And that is most likely what happened in my situation where it was like, huh, I can no longer find like a link between all of my experiences and all these terrible things are happening in the world and people are suffering and people are, you know, sparing and there's just all these things. And I've been really sitting in that like, knowledge and thinking about it a lot. And I think that the community that came around me in that time was incredibly important. Like I speak about it in the episode where I spoke about this crisis.

It was family. It was literally the council. It was it was the panel. It was family. It was my partner. It was my closest friends. And it really did show me who my closest friends were as well, which was quite interesting. And I kind of came to this conclusion. And I remember like being in my house and almost like pacing. Like I would move from the bedroom to the lounge room to the kitchen to the lounge room, like it was a very circular thing. And one day I was like, I just think that maybe not the purpose. But what was the third?

What was the third one? I've just already forgotten it. The path, yeah. And I think mine was like, the path is just to be love, to just be love. Like that is all you need to be. And that's going to come in many forms. but the way that you walk through life is in any single encounter with any single person being environment, your job is to just be this brilliant, bright orb that people can look to and say,

okay, well, this is love and this is kindness and this is warmth. And the purpose of that, obviously right now, this feels like my purpose. The podcast is the way that I perform and I approach the path. But maybe in the future it's going to be something else. And I think that also allowed me to not tie my spirituality and my belief in life to a specific career to what I was doing right now, even to like a specific relationship. That's why I really like that model that you've just introduced to us, right? It's like, no matter what stage in life you're at, you can find a way to bring meaning to what you're doing.

And maybe that is by keeping an ongoing list of what you're being taught in the moment, keeping an ongoing list of things that have felt pivotal to you, creating like a narrative and a story throughout your life. And then reflecting on community, reflecting on what your deep value is, is it love, is it creativity, is it generosity? I think that is a really practical way to think about it. If you can envision a world where everyone does what you just said, let's just say all of Gen Z does what you just said, which is what you just said, which is what. walk a path of abundant love, then you will have turned the world. You'll have done it, Gen C. I know. And it's just, you know, it's wild to me that I guess obviously there are so many different challenges and faults in the road and real pivotal crises that are happening to us

every single day. But sometimes I do just look at people and think, have you, it's obviously been a while since it's crossed your mind that life is short. Like I see people. make decisions or get really caught up in small things. And I was like, it's, you obviously, like, haven't had a reminder as of recent that you don't get endless time here and that this is very sacred. And maybe that's also the benefit of having that spiritual core as being able to make better decisions, decisions and being able to let stress go, you know, and anxiety, let it flow through you. You're still experiencing it. Sometimes it's beyond your control, but being like, this is part of the kind of the cause that I was dealt, when am I going to make of this?

So what you just shared, I think is even more important for people in their 20s. Because, well, let me ask you. You know, it's my impression that people in their 20s in some ways are very gifted by birth generation, that there's more awareness, more openness in a good sense, sensitivity, perceptiveness. And that this notion that Gen Z was more tuned, more feeling is true. But because of that, it's even more important for Gen Z to build the spiritual core and walk a path, as you've described, as the path of love. Because you're going to feel things more. I think that you're right.

I think that this generation is also more in touch with what makes us different. There is less need for conformity. Whether that is being accepting of different, you know, sexual or gender identity or whatever color your skin is or your ethnicity or the power of your neurodivergence, whatever it is that makes you different, different, we're more accepting of it now. Like maybe that is also coming into it, do you think? So then we greet you with love. If I'm neurodivergent, if I looks the same or different than you, right, greet me with love.

So that's already your path of abundant love in action. I would say Gen Z is for all generations on Earth right now, you are the pathbreakers for what I would call relational spirituality, leading with love, welcoming everyone to the table. And where I think the opportunity might be is in what you just shared, which is in your own being to hold deep love. Because even though Gen Z's so loving to one another, you've just talked about a way where there's also a relationship to the higher power or the, you. universe that lifts and guides you, that you deserve as a soul on earth, love and connection, as well as being a source of giving that to others. No, absolutely. I've got two final questions for you that might go off the path a little bit.

Good. I love that. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry.

We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world, are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%.

That's TWO%. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush

to do a little kill. Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade. of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase

that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth.

Are you a good person? because you're afraid. Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing,

growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that follow

revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so much, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern.

Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian, and Michael Marincini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've got two final questions. you. So when I asked people, I was like, what do you want to know about spirituality and its intersection with mental health? And a lot of people said, how does having a spiritual core impact something like anxiety or depression, which we would typically say, or like the kind of general belief system right now is it's quite biological, it's quite genetic. Where does spirituality come into managing that lived experience? For most of the 20th century, you're completely right.

People said, oh, well, mental health is biologically based, and spirituality is just some airy-fairy thing that has nothing to do with biology. But there's now a very rigorous, peer-reviewed science that shows that actually built into our biology is our seat of spiritual awareness. When we shared that beautiful council practice, there were very specific circuits that we've identified in the MRI that were running in your brain and my brain and in everyone's brain at the same time. The bonding network that lets us know we're loved and held. The parietal that puts in and out hard boundaries so we're distinct but we're also part of one family of life, when universe. A shift in our attention network so we can receive and perceive surprising new guidance.

So, you know, we actually are biologically built to have a spiritual life. That doesn't mean that spirituality is just, you know, a side effect of biology. It means that body, mind, and soul were one. And there's a neuro-docking station for spiritual awareness. So to back up knowing that, it's no longer, you know, it is now outdated to your point. And I'm so glad you put this front and center. It is outdated to say, oh, mental illness is biological. biological spirituality isn't. No, spirituality, like all of their human experiences, has biological underpinnings, a neuro seat in our brain. And when we strengthen our spiritual awareness, we are 80% less likely to become addicted. We are 60% more likely to recover from bumps in our lives without becoming downward, downward down, major depression. We are far more resilient.

We are far more able to connect with people. But it's not as simple a story as, oh, there's happy people who are spiritual and never get depressed, and then there's unhappy people who just aren't as spiritual. That's not the story. It's actually a deeper story, which is in our 20s, as I started sharing with you today when John broke up with me, there are times of unbelievable pain. But they are not necessarily medical depression. They're not necessarily psychopathology. Very often these are developmental depression. It's the knock at the door to ask bigger questions, the existential questions that you opened with. What is my purpose? What is the meaning in my life? What am I supposed to do with my life? Can I trust human beings?

And do I trust in love even if I'm not necessarily loved that? How do I want to be in this world? And that process, that is built into our children. genes is a process of existential search. When we hit our early 20s, our capacity for spirituality grows. We can love even more. We can probe even more deeply. We can see into the deep, sacred, transcendent nature of life in nature, in one another. We have these gifts that emerge in our 20s. But as this great gift of spiritual awareness boots up, it often can feel like a half, empty glass of spirituality while it's coming online. It can feel empty. It can feel confusing.

It can feel like, how do I put my finger on this? And many people in their 20s say, you know, when I don't let myself think about these questions, I get even more depressed. I have no choice. I've got to take this on. And so I'm not against medication, but medication alone is insufficient to address the most important work of your entire life, which is building your spiritual core in your 20s. Based on science, and it's 25 years of very good, you know, top American Journal of Psychiatry, the American Medical Association, top peer review science. Depression is a gateway to spiritual awakening in our early 20s. It is, often in our mid-20s. Depression is a knock at the door, an existential struggle to awaken our deeper knowing, our seat of spiritual awareness.

And once we build that, the next time something goes wrong, we have built and ready a spiritual response to disappointment, a spiritual response to not knowing where I'm going. And that literally shows up in the brain as neuroprotective against a recurrence of major depression. That's incredible. I love that there is this combination of biology and then of, you know, neuroimaging. And then also of this like profoundly intangible thing. You know, you cannot reach, you know, you reach out and touch your spirituality. Also we think, but you're literally saying, no, if you want to look inside your brain, if you wanted to poke around, you would find these paths, you would find these neurons, these synapses that are directly responsible for you,

you know, having a sense of being and a sense of place. Like you said, the neurosate, which is just so cool. And you know what's interesting as well is how outdated. I'm thinking about like when I did my degree and when I did like all my training, how outdated the current like the current system and education system is. Because only like maybe seven years ago, I remember sitting in a class and being like depression is biological and that is purely it and there is nothing more to it. It's inherited. Blah, blah, blah. And there was nothing about like experiences.

There was nothing about deep questions. There was nothing about, you know, how strengthening everything else in your life and not just social connections, not just physical health, but actually thinking deeply and having a philosophy that might bind bad experience together might have. help. So it's really incredible that you're putting it out there for this next generation of, you know, a lot of psychology students listen to this show. A lot of people who go on to be counselors and therapists are going to have a different perspective. So I'm going to ask you one final question. If you had to give three rapid fire practices that someone could do

daily to get to that point of having an awakened brain or building their spiritual core, what would you recommend? In my book, The Awakened Brain, I list three practices that we use on the Columbia University campus. They're now used on about 30 campuses in the United States. One of them is hosting counsel, which we just shared, because that is your direct connection to transcendent relationship, right? Your higher power, your higher self, and those who truly have your best interest in mind.

The other two practices are called the Road of Life, which cultivates what you shared, which is a stance, an operating manual of how to engage in a dialogue with the universe. And then the third practice has to do with finding someone with whom you can share your spiritual path, because it's wonderful if you can go through, whether you call it the sangha or the fellowship or the journey group. But remember your practice, your people, you're passing your purpose. Your people are important and you're creating people here. So in the awakened brain, I share these practices. And I also share in the awakened brain the references to all of these scientific articles. So you can go online, pull up the article and say, you know, listen, I'd like to share today in my counseling class or with my therapist. There's a scientific article that says, you know, spirituality is really important.

in making my way through despair and depression, that when I'm recovering from depression, I'm building the spiritual core if I put my heart and mind and focus there. So it's intended to be empowering of your own birthright of who you already are. There's no one who isn't spiritual. You are spiritual. It's not if it's how in your own journey you personally want to realize your great gift. What a beautiful way to finish the episode. And I want to say this book, the awakened brain. Is it out right now? The awakened brain is out in its stories and its science and its practices.

And that is exactly what we talk about on this show. Like you can't have healing and mental clarity without the science and without the deep thoughts. So I really would recommend going out and getting this book. I'll leave a link to it in the description of the episode along with where we can find you and your Instagram, your Facebook, your website, because I think that we need more of these conversations. So thank you, Dr. Lisa, for coming on the show. Well, you are a magnificent voice for spiritual journey in this life. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. What a beautiful compliment.

I really appreciate that. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to follow along and leave a five-star review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. have further thoughts about this discussion, DM me on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast. I want to have a chat to you about it. I want to talk about what you think because it was incredibly moving for me and if you found that to be the same for you, please let me know. And we also take episode suggestions over there. So if you want a follow-up episode, if you want more content like this, I also would love your feedback. Until next time, stay safe, be kind and be gentle to yourself and we will talk very soon.

2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO%. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor.

It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen and learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern.

Two more men who'd been through. the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.