The Psychology of your 20s - 255. The psychology of misogyny ft. Hannah Ferguson

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

What does it mean to experience misogyny these days? Is it the typical locker room talk and exclusion, or does it go deeper than that? In today's episode, my guest and I discuss the many dimensions of misogyny, including:  Internalised misogyny and sexism from other women The psychology of the 'pick me' girl  Dating as a feminist  The ethics of cosmetic surgery  How to handle misogyny in the workplace, and much more... Hannah Ferguson is the founder of Cheek Media and the author of two best-selling books, Bite Back and Taboo. She also hosts Big Small Talk, a wonderful news podcast.  Follow Hannah here: @hannahferguson__ & @cheekmedia.co  Buy her new book here: https://www.amazon.com.au/Taboo-Conversations-never-about-relationships-ebook/dp/B0DCF8LNQK    PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/  Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast For business: [e-mail]    The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode. as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. On today's episode for our 12 days of guests, I want to talk about something that I have really wanted to speak to since the day I started this podcast.

I remember this very topic being on my first ever list of topics that I wanted to cover. And it's still been on that list since 2021, but I knew I needed to find the right guests to talk about it. Today we're finally getting to it. We're going to be tackling a topic that runs very deep, which is sexism or misogyny in our. 20s, in our workplaces, in our friendships, in dating, but also our own internalized misogyny

and how to deal with that. What are some of the psychological consequences of experiencing misogyny during this decade? How do you put your foot down? How do you stand up for yourself when you don't feel like you have power? What does it mean when other women tear each other down? Why do we criticize each other? There's so many behaviors and beliefs and systems attached to this, but at the end of the day it is quite a psychological experience. It's rooted in social structures and messaging that has been ingrained in us since a young age. And I'm really excited to explore the psychology behind these patterns and this experience. And also to welcome on our amazing expert guest, a friend of the show, Hannah Ferguson.

Friend of the show, I love that. I am a friend of the show, genuinely. Yeah, before this, we were just having like a massive, massive chat. then we're like, wait, we actually have a job to do. Yeah, and that's crazy because we're in the depths right now of each other's personal lives. Let's snap back into reality and get into the questions. I love that energy, though. I know.

I know. This is like true female bonding. Like we're talking about misogy and there's like none of it here. It's not present in the room with us right now. No, I know. Also, it's so nice to have an Australian guest on. I'm so privileged to be here. Thank you.

And we're in the same room. For once. I know. I think this never happens with a guest, like very, very rarely. Can you tell the listeners, a little bit about who you are, what you do. It's like a complete rap sheet and how you got here. So I am the founder and CEO of Cheek MediaCo, which is mainly a sort of news commentary platform for left-wing opinions through Instagram, so at cheekmedia.com. I'm also the co-host of

News and Pop Culture Podcast Big Small Talk. And I'm the best-selling author of Byteback and my new book taboo has just come out as well. And that's really about sex, dating relationships. And like what it means to be a woman in 2024. And bite back, for those of you who have not read that book, incredible. My mum read that book. Oh, that's really nice. Yeah, I bought it for her and she was like, this is incredible. Oh, I love that.

And bite back. It's a book about feminism, media, and politics and how we change the systems. Yeah, which is literally the perfect segue into what we're talking about today, which is misogyny. And of course, you talk about this a lot, both on cheek, but also on a podcast, in your books, I want to really begin by focusing on misogyny from women to women. Yep. Because I think that's like the most complex issue that I wrap my head around.

It's like you kind of expect misogyny from men at times, but never from someone perhaps of your same gender who understands your experience. How do you think it kind of looks different? What do we like typically expect misogyny to look like versus what are the ways that we actually encounter it. Yeah, and like for people, and I think it's really important to make the note at the start that misogyny is the hatred of women, of femininity, of these sort of traits that we consider and associate with women and girls. And I think that needs to be really contrast against sexism, which is just a singular act. So misogyny is this deep rooted hatred, right? And when it's experienced towards ourselves, when it's experienced towards other women as women and girls, it's called

internalized misogyny because we are internalizing a system of patriarchy that has conditioned us to see women and girls as less than, less than men. And it's anyone who really, it's the gender spectrum, it's people who are not men and how we are treated as less than as in equal to men, and then how we apply that kind of thinking that's been conditioned into us since birth towards ourselves and other women and girls. So it could be, and there's so many examples of this, but I would say like the beauty industry and body image standards, the way we feel about ourselves and treat ourselves about our bodies, that's an act of internalised misogyny, the way that we judge other women.

And I'm not saying just general judgment. Of course we're going to have natural judgment and criticism for others. But internalized misogyny is really focusing on feminized parts of ourselves and qualities, traits, behaviors that patriarchy shames and oppresses those things in other women that we critique. So maybe the way someone wears their hair, the way someone does their makeup, their body,

their opinion on feminism. The way that we treat other women in those senses is internalised misogyny coming out. And I really like how you pointed out that it's almost a hatred of things that are typically female. Yeah.

So it's not like, oh, I hate their body the way that, oh, you know, I'm judging their body, the way that you can judge anyone's body. It's, I'm judging their body because they are a woman or because of something about them that seems feminine or seems maybe sexual. So it's like, you know, it's a double standard.

That's the word that always is like, is it the heart of any conversation around this? It's there is one world for women and girls, people who identify as women. And then there is this other world for people who aren't women, who are men. The standard is raised. There's a different set of criteria. There's things that you notice every single day

and apply criticism to that you would never focus on for men. And it feels so weird when that's coming from another woman. Yes. Like it's so strange when you're like, wait, I thought we were meant to be like buddies here. Oh, my God. And you can feel it in your bones when I'm talking about it. You know, when you go to a lunch with your family and your grandma points out that you've put on weight or that you're eating too much or that your skirt or your hair or something, ripped jeans.

Like there are so many examples of like different qualities, traits, behaviors, again, that are like, you would never see that happen to your brother, your cousin who's male. Like you can see and feel the difference in the moment about the standard women are held to. Have you ever had any experiences of this? Like, have you ever? It's a rhetorical question. To do the run sheet, yeah. Yeah.

Like, what was your reaction there? You know, being torn down by another woman and obviously you have like an online presence, right? It happens all the time. Yeah. Was it pity, anger or like sadness? What's the main emotional reaction for you? I feel like there's obviously like a spectrum and like a pattern of behaviour as to how this runs for me.

So firstly, it's like rage and I'm offended, right? I'm obviously hurt. I'm wounded. And at first, it's this I am being unfairly targeted and something is being pointed out about my appearance or it feels like it's tied inherently to my identity because that's the other thing. Women's identity and appearance is so inherently linked. So so many of these feminized characteristics feel like an attack on your own.

your personhood, your humanity, right? There's this rage that something so personal is being criticized. Then it turns for me to a particular kind of hurt. And that hurt is, when men make comments about my body, they do so because they feel entitled to do that and they've never had my lived experience. It hurts more from women. Fair or not, it hurts more for women for me personally because I know that they know what it feels like. Oh my gosh, right? And so it hurts more because you expect understanding and you know empathy is present. You know empathy is possible. And so to have them use it and weaponise it against you feel so deeply wounding, then it turns to pity for me. Because I realized that at some point in their life, they felt it was so shameful

to lean into these parts of themselves that they instead decided to become and lean into masculine patriarchal tactics and use it against me. And I feel sorry for them that that happened. It's like a full closure circle as well. I like that you kind of finish on pity because what is more winning than pity? I think about that all the time. I guess my problem though is when pity doesn't lead to should I challenge this? Yeah, that's a good point. I think I don't because I know that especially like online, I'm like, the system that have made you this run a lot deeper than what I can handle on an Instagram comment. Of course.

So I'm going to be pulled in and I'm just going to feel worse and people might look at that and actually become even more angry. It's a hard. It's a hard job, isn't it? It's circumstantial. It depends on what you think you can do with that certain comment. And often the only reason I'll comment back to someone on Instagram is if I think that my comment can employ like a certain tone and emotion, that it's not necessarily to convince the person commenting, but for other people watching to know and learn how to articulate how to do that.

Yeah. I only ever do it as like, okay, if I'm going to call this person in, I need to make sure it's in a sense and in a way that I think others could benefit from too, not just this person. See, my approach is like just be so absolutely deliciously kind to them that they then are like, oh, wait, am I the asshole here? Yeah. And I'm like, actually this is going to make you really the reflective.

back hopefully. Also, you can't go anywhere else. Once, I honestly think that like kindness or even like complete knowledge or education, it just corners someone and you're like, you can't hurt me anymore. Like there is, there is nothing more that you can do. I've exited this conversation. I've left my like, sparkly fairy dust or I've left my knowledge and I'm not going to respond to this anymore. Yeah. And you're so right. I feel like when you get comments from men, I'm like, you're going to hate me no matter what. And one of my friends, Violet, actually, who, has a bit of like an online presence. I was getting like all these mean comments,

maybe like midway through this year, had like a random video go viral. If you remember, it was like, remember that turns like, I'm looking for a man in finance. And the video that I posted was like, I'm just looking for a man in therapy. He can be anyone, any size, any eyes.

I just want him to be self-aware. Yep. And I did not think that that was a controversial thing to be saying, oh my God, did I get ripped apart? by all these men and they were like well your teeth are terrible well you're fat well you're this that uh like you have all these terrible qualities and then it was like these women being like yeah get her and my friend violet was like they're going to say that to you no matter what you look like no matter who you are because they have learned that to be a woman that's an insult they go

done like you're already just the fact of being like anything you do is an insult anything that you if there is woman or female or girl before it or she or her is offensive in their eyes. But what's ironic is that so many men constantly talk about the need for men's mental health to be prioritised and acknowledged. And yes, your video is in the like meme viral moment. But all you were asking for was I want men to engage in mental health practices and to have a level of self-awareness and emotional intelligence, which is quite a low bar, an expectation, right? It's nothing to physical appearance. It's purely psychological and well-being related. And to have a level of self-awareness. And to have a level of,

that turned on you is proving the point one, but also establishing that men's standards for women and nothing to do with our emotional health or what we can bring to the table in our personal lives and all to do. And it's not to say all men, obviously. Yeah. But it's to say that the response was purely appearance-based proves how little therapy that those people have done. Yeah, exactly. Right. That was one of the main comments was this guy. It was like, well, then why would I want you? And I was like, you've literally just proved my point. Yep. Like, you just proved it like in a second that you, this is the person who needs this. Like the fact that it's not even a demand, it's like, I'm looking for this.

You don't have to be this. I'm looking for this. This is a joke. This is like a viral hook. And you're taking it so personally that you've like insulted me. Anyhow, we've gotten completely off track. The people that really interested me though in that comment section was the women, was the women who were like, God, that's just like, why would you want such a feminine man? Why would you want someone who like, why would I want a man in therapy?

All of these things. And that kind of brings me to talking about the pick me girl. Because when you're explaining your kind of your cycle of truth when you get a hate comment from another woman, it ends in sympathy. And I honestly feel so much sympathy towards pick me girls. And I want to see if you feel the same way. What does that, what does a pick me girl look like to you though? A pick me girl sits alongside terms like cool girl or not. not like other girls. There's a really fantastic additional phrase that was coined by Australian

journalist Amy Ramikas, which is a crumb maiden. A crumb maiden being someone who rises up within systems and uses that very system and that power to oppress a group that they're part of. Julie Bishop. Perfect. Sorry, just going to add her. People who aren't Australian won't know who that is. Julie Bishop and Pauline Hanson, if you are in Australia, if you're not Australia, have a Google. Yeah, raise your hands. The search goes up. But I think that the way to think of a pick-me girl, and when we say pick-me, it's this woman who wants to be chosen by men. So this is a woman in our minds who engages and prioritises male attention, male interests, the male gaze, in order to garner attention and approval from men to the exclusion of women.

So to distance themselves from groups of girls to not want to be a girl's girl, in quotations, and someone who really pursues systems of patriarchy to find themselves more privileged than other women within that system. And it's honestly very, very interesting because I think once you start noticing it, you're like, oh, sometimes I do that. Yeah. Sometimes, and I can see myself having done that when I was younger a lot. Well, I think that starting from a place of sympathy towards this, when you're a teenage girl, I've never met someone who didn't engage in pick me girl behavior. Yeah.

Because we've got to really step back from this and understand that the idea of a pick me is that they want to be chosen. They want to be love. They want to be seen to an extent, right, by men. And we exist in a society that teaches women from a very young age that the worst thing they could be a single and child free. So in that context, of course, young girls, especially in our early teen years and as we become adults, really lean in to, I need to have a little. boyfriend, I need to be desirable. To be seen to be loved means in a patriarchal society for women to be beautiful and enticing to men.

And that takes a lot of time to sort of dismantle, to de-centre that need. And it takes a lot of self-awareness and growth. You know, what's really fascinating was I was talking to one of my friends about this and she's recently come out as a lesbian. And I was bringing this up. I was like, I'm going to go talk to Hannah about pick me girls. Like, do you think that like this impacted you despite you never really feeling like any kind of sexual desire towards men? And she was like, yes. Yeah. 100%. She was like, even as a teenager,

I did all these things because I wanted and she had boyfriends and she wanted a boyfriend. She's like, I had absolutely no sexual interest in them. But there was a part of me, almost this like, part of me in my DNA that realized that winning the favor and the approval of men would benefit me, would be powerful for me, would offer me like some form of protection. you know like if I was chosen maybe I was not going to be judged as much maybe I would be protected from scrutiny so it's really fascinating to recognize that it doesn't just come down to yeah sex arousal like romantic attachment it is actually a level deeper than that psychologically and it has to do with power and safety and security and I never thought that I'd find myself like

sympathizing with like the pick me girls who were like freaking 50 and 60 but I'm like you were raised in an environment and in a society where what was your other option and we still you know we exist in a society where I have friends who have chosen to be child free I have lots of single friends but we are still kind of charting the course for the first time because while women have been choosing to do this for a long time it's never been the majority it's never been a third it's never even been a quarter of women really visible as well as visible so we don't know what it looks like to have entire friendship circles and, you know, context where women are invited to really challenge those milestones because women have been taught that the most valuable parts of

their lives, that their milestones are things where they give up agency and independence. Marriage, children. Like, when you really think about that, the things we are most celebrated and pedestalled for are the things where we revoke our freedom. And it's hard to not buy into that system because, and this isn't to say that, if you want children and if you want to be married, that somehow you're like anti-feminist or whatever. It's a choice that, like, you know, you make,

every single choice you make, you give up something. Yeah. Not just to do with what we're talking about. Any choice for anything, like work. We're giving up time. We're giving up, you know, that's labor. That's a lot of brain space. Like when we think about lots of things that we're doing,

it's always making a choice like that. Buying anything, you're giving up the possibility of buying something else with that money. Like, so it's not, it doesn't come from a place of judgment. But I do think that it's very interesting to see that, a lot of women are like, oh, maybe that's not what I want. Maybe that's not what I want. And previously, you know, my mother, my grandmother, my ancestors were not given that choice. And the fact that so many people are embracing that shows that maybe there is a deeper desire to not have those things at times that previously, it would have been more normalized if we'd let that desire be more

present earlier. Yes. And the people who didn't desire, that would have been fine as well. Like, everyone would have just been able to do whatever the fuck they wanted, whatever that choice was. And I think that's like a really important place that we're getting to. We're going to take a short break, but when we return, we're to discuss how to unlearn some of our own internalized misogyny, deal with misogyny in the workplace, how to assert ourselves, how to be confident, be outspoken, be loud, ask for what you want. All of that and more after this short break. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when

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Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself. at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct?

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The Gillespie and Michael Marangini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen,

breaking news at Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. All right. So we're back with Hannah. And I have another question for you. Of course, because this is an interview. So that's how that works. I'm out now, but I'm just going to sit here. Yeah. So I'm just going to monologue. Speaking of monolog, when our internal monologue is really saying,

okay, there are certain things I need to do to be accepted in this environment to be picked. You know, I do want love and I want to get married. Is that going to cost me giving up certain things? should I just not be myself? How do we counteract that narrative that is very much, I think, maybe like rooted in our own internalized misogyny, the narrative that you have to be different or you have to suppress the parts of you that are, you know, female or that are individual in order to fit into like society's box?

I had this quote a few months ago in an interview on the Imperfects podcast. We love them. We love them. And the quote was one of the celebrities interviewed said, the more me I am, the better it goes. And I think about that a lot in the context of the way I choose relationships and which work opportunities to pursue. Because I don't want to say to anyone, stop repressing everything, stop compromising. But like the nature of relationships is that we're going to have conflict. We're going to have compromise.

We're going to have boundaries. We're going to have needs and wants. when we're talking about our own internal monologue of like being the cool girl or, you know, suppressing our femininity or performing in a certain way, we can understand that beauty standards under patriarchy and the male gays have a very specific idea of what is hot. But the person you actually want to be with and the person that is best for you if you choose, so choose or so seek long-term relationships, partnered, monogamous, whatever that may be, is the person that sees you as. you want to be seen and allow yourself to be seen. Because I think that part of my issue, especially in my own personal life of dating, was for so long, I was so worried, especially running a feminist media company. Kungalwamara. Was that every time I told a man, they'd be like, oh, I find your success hot, but not your

personality and your values. Like, I was so worried about the sort of, are they truly here for the right reasons and actually align with me. And they don't have to align with everything, I think. That's not what we're aiming for either. what we're aiming for is to be so comfortable with ourselves and what we want and who we're looking for in our lives, that we go and actually allow ourselves to seek out that person by being honest with ourselves about what it will take for us to be seen and loved in the way that we want. I know that I engaged in a lot of bad relationships because I performed what I thought I was supposed to do and it never made me feel good. And also just out of a need for validation at times as well. Absolutely.

You can have like all the knowledge about misogy, sexism, all these things, how women are treated, how they've been conditioned to behave. And then still you find yourself being like, but I really, really want this validation. Of course. And things like dating apps give us so much instant gratification, right, over these things that we then feel this need to like fake a peer. Like we need to fake our personalities, fake our prompts, fit in the mainstream, all of these things, right? But ultimately that is just serving a narrative that is not going to fulfill you. Yeah. And it's really hard to come to terms with that because what I always say to is healthy relationships are harder. I have found traditionally that when I have dated men and like kind of performed what it means to be like a heterosexual woman in 2024,

I've often found it easy because if they treat me poorly like ghosting behaviors or like poor conflict management, I'm like, you're the problem, you're emotionally unintelligent. when I've been in feminist relationships that really allowed me to be seen and heard, it turned back on me my own behaviours and issues when I was met with an emotional equal who challenged me in the way I challenge them. So it's actually quite hard to recognise when you're not having like the big sparks and the chemical reactions and you're actually in a feminist relationship where you're not playing into that internalised misogyny. Now you're presented with like, oh my God, there's so much I haven't discovered about myself

while I've been kind of suppressing and toning down and listening to that internal monologue. And what do they say? What's the happiest group of people on the planet? Single women in their 50s? Single women in the 50s. You're absolutely right. And it's the women who have been like, I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Yep.

I sought the validation. I had these relationships that, you know, weren't feminist. And I'm opting out. Yeah. I'm opting out. Like, I just, I'm at the stage where I don't need that anymore. It's like, there will be Goldberg quote, like, I don't want someone in my house. Like, I don't want a man in my house.

I know, it's so clean normally. Yeah. It's all just, ugh. And you do like, and I feel like it's this whole thing where it's like, okay, I had kids and I got married. Yeah. So I did what you expected me to. But now you're, like, not paying attention to me because I've, like, aged out of the male gaze. So I can just chill.

Yep. I can just chill and I can just, like, eat whatever the fuck I want. And I can look however I want. And I can wear whatever. colors and clothes. I don't have to be attractive anymore and I don't need to find a husband and I don't need to be a mother. But is still a mother, but is it then, like, and this is really the question, is it when the women who have found themselves in these predicaments who have sought out relationships, long-term monogamous heterosexual relationships, got married, had the kids,

started to age out of that male gaze, and then discovered like it didn't matter, no matter what effort they put in it didn't matter anymore, that then become that internalized misogyny megaphone. Oh my God, do you think so? Like the women who are like holding on, the gripping, the remains of that feeling. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And honestly, got it again with sympathy. That's what I mean.

It must be awful. It must be so, so hard. And especially if you are still in the environments, like I'm thinking about where I grew up. And I grew up in, like, Queensland in Australia, which is like Florida, right? The Florida of Australia. I spend six years in Queensland, too. Yeah, and you grew up in like the fucking Alabama. I did. Orange, yes.

Orange. Yeah. We're not going to get into it. No, but we both have these experiences. Yeah. And sometimes I like see people from there who I'm just like, oh my God, I can just see that you're angry and you're angry because you don't know who you are and you're angry because you've been buying into the system, but you don't realize that's why

you're angry. Like you don't realize that like all of these feelings and this like hatred that you are projecting towards primarily younger women. And I see this a lot of older women in my like, where I grew up, all this anger that you're like projecting towards younger women is actually not, like you're not angry at them. Like you're angry that you didn't get that. And you're like, play by the rules because I had to. Yeah. I had to like do all these things that I'd actually, you know, innately like my deep inner like self, self concept did not want me to do these

things because it wasn't free and it wasn't liberating. But I did them anyway. So now you should have to. And that's where I think it comes from. It is kind of this, we see this with the feminist waves too. see this regression almost where older women of previous waves resent the choices we now have and challenge that. And it's interesting because all I hope for myself is that when I become an older woman, that I champion the next generation of women. Yeah. And the changes they want to make because they might be different fights to mine, but they are reflective of the new frontier of what they're seeking next. And it must be hard to be left out of that. You have two choices, though. You can lie down and complain or you can get up and join them. Yeah. You know who I think is so,

at that. I'm just going to give a shout out to my grandma who's like, oh my God, the truest feminist that ever fucking lived. Like, she is just so open and curious. And she, you know, she said this to me the other day. She's American. And she had to vote in the recent election. And she said, whenever I vote, like, I choose to vote for the person in who I imagine is doing it the hardest. And I think, how would they vote? And I vote that way. This is exactly. Exactly right. Use your vote for someone less privileged than yourself. Yeah. And she brings that to like her feminist principles as well, which she's like, I don't understand it. I don't know what you're doing, but like, cool, down for that. Don't care.

Her big thing is like cosmetic surgery. That's my big thing too, actually. Yeah. And she's, and that's like her big thing where it's like, it is the ultimate frontier of like, I think in my mind, like it's the ultimate frontier of incernalized misogyny versus like, freedom of women to do what they want, but then like are the insecurities only coming from, it's a whole. Well, I think that that's what the pick me conversation is about too, because are we just being sort of playing into the problem by criticizing other women, but then it comes back to this idea

of what choice feminism is, which is the idea which I disagree with, that anything that a woman does is inherently feminist because a woman made that decision. But it's about individualism. It's about individualism versus collective action then, too. And when we are playing into a system that hates us, we are still feeding, monetising, and continuing a vicious cycle. And cosmetic procedures is another way. Pick me girls play into the male gaze. And it's not everyone that gets Botox or has cosmetic procedures is a picby girl.

It's not what I'm saying. But we do need to assess at a higher level and step back from our immediate want to remove an insecurity and think, who am I doing this for? Yeah. And I think that's an exact, like the exact best way to think about it is, all right, this is still your choice. And it will always be your choice. But part of the choice is like a thought process behind it. With any choice, again, it's fact like the thing we were talking about with like marriage or choosing to be child free. Any choice, like you give up something and interrogating the reason that you choose to do something, I think is important.

And I know that like previously it was like makeup. I think we've all gotten to the point where like, no, no, makeup is self-expression as well as like a mask of an insecurity. And I wonder like where that discussion is going to go with cosmetic surgery. Because I honestly don't have an opinion on it. I'm completely stuck on the fence with it. I am anti-cosmetic surgery, but I love having conversations about this because I'm so willing to change my mind on this. And I think we should all be like that with a range of topics. but one of the conversations I had with a follower of mine when I was posting about this recently

was she said, you actually haven't aged yet. And so it's very easy from a 26-year-old's body to say I'm against engaging in and feeding into the anti-aging industry, the beauty industry, when actually you have the privilege of youth still and you don't know how you'll feel about your body and what that means to see a change down the line. I thought that was a fantastic criticism that really made me think about my argument. Wow, I've like never thought of that. I kind of got chills. Yeah, it's amazing. I don't think I've changed my position, but I've really thought about it.

And it's, I'm never applying a judgment to an individual for making the choice. I want us as individuals to come together and critique the system that has made us feel we need to do this. And the other thing that I actually saw someone, I had a similar conversation with someone offline. And she was like, okay, but don't you understand like being hot makes you powerful? So, and it's true. It's like, it is very, very true. So maybe it's like you embrace the evil for the good. I, on the fence about it, didn't agree neither, agreed nor disagreed.

I thought it was an interesting point. She was like, okay, if I want to be someone who breaks a glass ceiling, and that's the first step, right? We just want to break the ceiling, get the hole open so all the other birdies can fly out. That was not a metaphor, the woman. Just, you know, it was a metaphor for an atrium. I like that. I like that. Birdies. That's so funny. Anyhow. And she was like, okay, so if I want to be someone who can like walk in a room and like, you know, change policy or change, um, change, like, institutions or convince people to donate more to a charity or this or that or support the arts,

like if I'm hot, I can do that better. And so is that like, I've designed. I've designed. decided to play into the game for the greater good. And she made this like very interesting argument for it. I think it's a compelling argument, but I think it's immediately tarnished in a way by saying that is a woman locking the door behind her because there are other women who do not have the same privilege or baseline. Yeah. Because we know that pretty beautiful beauty exists on a spectrum. And as much as we want to say everyone's beautiful, we know that it's still hierarchical. and that Western beauty standards mean that it's like thin white women that benefit, right? Yeah.

And so I would always say like, of course, do what you want to do. I do want people to lean in if they want to wear a certain thing and fashion and make up art forms. But when we're talking about being hot and pretty privilege, yes, that's an argument that I think is really interesting to explore. But are you just, again, locking that door and pulling up the ladder from behind you for other women who cannot reach that same height? I'm going to bring that back to her. Maybe she's just listening to this episode. I want to see what she says. All right.

I want to finish up by just talking about something that I get asked about a lot from listeners is a lot of my female listeners will be like, I've just started a new job, got my first big old job, I'm in the corporate environment, I'm in finance, I'm in whatever. How do I assert myself in this male-dominated space? Like, how do I say, I deserve to be here? without feeling like I'm going to be, I'm thinking about someone that messaged me recently. And I'm paraphrasing, but she was basically like,

how do I do this? How do I stand out? How do I be myself without feeling like I'm going to be punished for that? I think that there's a few elements here. First is communication and I would say keeping records of things. That sounds a bit suspicious and all these things. But I think that in corporate workplaces, I actually used to work for a union and be like in sort of employment law.

and defending people. So like a lot of my role was protection, self-protection for people. What I mean by this is when you want to prove what you're doing at work and assert your worth and the role you're playing here in this ecosystem, keep records of achievements, keep records of well-done projects and tasks, keep records of great emails, keep records of problems you find in the workplace. If you've asserted a policy problem, if you've asserted lacking organizations, if you've asserted concerns about a particular employee, like are you someone who's harassing you or something, keep a written record of what's going on is one thing. Two is make sure you're getting paid what you're worth. There is nothing like

organizing like pay reviews six-monthly, talking about metrics, where your hierarchy work, what your dreams and visions are, what your plan is, what you actually are interested in pursuing your passions in the workplace and where you want to go. I think a lot of this, before we get to the stage of like, how do I assert myself at work, is getting really comfortable knowing what you're after. Because when you know what you're seeking and you have goals and you have a plan and an outline and you know what you're good at and you believe in that, that means that when you are in the workplace, you feel a lot more comfortable having tough conversations, whether it be with other employees in conflict, whether it be with management in seeking reviews, performance updates, going further

in the workplace. But I think that this can be difficult because we know there's a lot of toxic workplaces around, but knowing your rights at work, knowing what you can and can't do, and knowing which boundaries you want to push, which boundaries you want to respect, and what you want to make change doing is incredibly important. Because I'm not going to say to you, like, get in there and go and start a fight or, you know, like get in the morning tea and, no, no. I think that we need to understand which rules are worth breaking and why. And I think we need to understand what we want from work because I think it's also about putting in place boundaries like, I don't go home after 6pm because I don't want to start setting the boundary

that I will do anything to stay back and I work much harder than others. There's this fine balance between kind of emerging out of a girl boss era. So we don't want people killing themselves at work for crumbs and being walked on. I want people to assert their worth in the workplace by getting things done well, asking the right questions, asking and expecting better for themselves, working hard but working smart too. One way that I do this, and I like what you said about, you know, we're exiting the girl boss era. We are moving on from that.

We're all about respecting our self-worth as people who aren't just machines. But in any interaction, anything where I have to assert a boundary, I just imagine the person that I admire most doing that for me. So I think like, I'm trying to think about who I would choose for this example, for like a workplace example, had a really amazing boss. manager when I was a management consultant. Her name was Heidi and she's just a legend. And sometimes when I'd have to like assert myself and be like, no, I'm going home because it's my grandma's birthday or I'm going home because of X, Y, Z. I would just imagine that she was there instead being like, oh yeah,

by the way, Gemma needs to leave. Yeah. And I would just like picture that like she was right there with me or I would picture that I was her. And what would she say in that circumstance? What would she do? How would she act? I use this in every situation. It reminds me of like my approach to dating last year was be the person you want to date. I like that. Applying it to this is like, be the person you'd want to employ. Yes. So it doesn't mean working a 14 hour a day. You wouldn't want that of your employee because we don't expect that of our employees, right? We would want someone who turns up to work on time or lets us know why, communicates clearly, communicates kindly, has, you know, brings their personality to work, is respectful and has great conversations

and does high quality work and challenges themselves. Yeah. And that's the other. thing is like work does feel like a huge part of your personality, but it's not your entire identity. And you actually can't be someone who is a good employee who's going to get ahead if you give everything to your workplace and leave nothing for yourself. So I love that as a self-employed people too. I'm like, I need to take my own advice. Yeah, no, it doesn't apply to us. Da. Yeah, of course. Dah. But that's the other thing I would say. And it's, it's to do with all of this. So often our views are more progressive and we would, what would you say to your friend? But not, what are you not applying to yourself?

in these circumstances, something to really reflect on too. I do this to my sister all the time. My sister's a professional athlete. And I'm always like, no, like, stand up for yourself. Like, don't let them boss you around. Demand more money. And then in my situations, I'm like, meow, meow. I don't think I've ever meowed on the podcast before, but it is how it is.

All right, we're going to wrap up, but I ask this final question of everyone. I just love to hear what they have to say. What is one piece of advice you would have for people in their 20s? doesn't have to be about what we talked about today. This is a bit random. I've actually never given this advice, like, in a formal way, on podcast, is usually reserved for my closest friends. And it might sound a bit strange because there's so much more inspirational,

Pinterest-y sort of stuff that I could go for here. But in your relationships, your close relationships, whether it be romantic friendship, whenever someone's going through a hard conflict at work, whatever, with their romantic partner, I always say, what is your threshold at the basement? And like, what I mean is, how low are you willing to go? Because what I've found over the last few years in dating and in friendships and things is when I get upset in a relationship I'm struggling, often you're being depleted one percent at a time.

So I think, like, oh, you know, they did this last week and they did this this week, but neither of those things feel like an adequate amount to, like, cause a problem over or start a conflict. And what ends up happening often is you end up 25% depleted and not knowing how you got there, how you're like all of these 1% items, these tiny little things have built up and it feels ridiculous to bring them up, but I'm not happy. And the advice I would give is to find really clearly where your bottom line is in your relationships. Because for a lot of people it's like cheating or like a friend like fundamentally betraying you in some like very significant way. And I think we need to improve our boundaries and understanding of ourselves and what we expect from our relationships. So instead of waiting to find the basement, I would say to people, know where your basement is. Because it allows you a sense of self-respect and understanding.

And it helps you raise conflict and concerns earlier. That's fabulous advice. And no one's given it before. Oh, thanks. It's a really, really good one. Know where your basement is. How low you go, limbo a limbo joke. I think it's because often we just find ourselves like, I can't believe I got here because it's seven minor or medium things.

Yeah. And it's gone past the basement and you don't know how you got there. And I never want people to feel like that. And I'm sure people listening to this, you're probably thinking of your own example. Right now, like in your brain, you're thinking about a friendship or a relationship or a work instance or a neighbor whatever that you have not done this for and now you can do it. Yeah. So Hannah, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm going to link every single place that you can find her in the show description, including her amazing podcast, Big Small Talk, and Big Talk, and... Soon to be, another one. Another one. You could probably guess what it's called. Yeah. Leave your suggestions in the comments.

And also, I would really, really tell you that if you liked this conversation to follow Chick Media, because it's incredible. It's where I get so much little tidbits of information from. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you give us a five-star review, follow along, leave a comment, leave some kind words. Follow us on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast. If you want to see what new episodes we have coming out, if you want to leave a comment or leave a suggestion

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