The Psychology of your 20s - 258. Healing our sexual shame ft. Dr Emily Jamea

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

In today's we tackle a topic many of us face but rarely discuss openly: sexual shame and sexual confidence. What holds us back from having amazing sex? What emotional wounds stop us from asking for what we want? Why do we zone out when we're with someone we love? Why do we feel shame about having too much, or not enough sex? These are the questions we are going to ask today.  We are jouned by renowned sex therapist Dr. Emily Jamea, to break down where sexual shame comes from—whether it’s past trauma, religious messaging, or societal pressures—and how it impacts our ability to experience pleasure. Dr. Emily shares powerful advice on unlearning shame, building sexual confidence, and embracing your desires without fear or embarrassment. We also explore the psychology behind libido, its fluctuations in our 20s, and the role mental health, stress, and body image play in our relationships and sexual lives. Buy The Anatomy of Desire here: https://www.amazon.com.au/Anatomy-Desire-Secrets-Connection-Cultivate-ebook/dp/B0CPWSJFML  Follow Dr Emily here: @dremilyjamea    PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/  Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast For business: [e-mail]    The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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for our psychology. Before we begin the episode, I just want to let you all know that this episode will include discussions of sex, including sexual assault and sexual trauma. So if this topic is one that is particularly upsetting for you, please feel free to stop listening now. This episode will still be here in a week, a month, a year. So just consider your current mental headspace and your ability to listen to stories and advice about these themes. There will be resources in the episode description if needed. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode, back for another

December guest episode. And we break down the psychology of our 20s. When I was thinking about who I wanted to invite on this December and what I wanted to discuss, I thought a lot about a DM that I received from a listener asking me to talk about sexual confidence, specifically, how to move past sexual shame from your past and feel like your pleasure is something that is important and that you can advocate for. And it was a really amazing question, one that we've really never answered before on the podcast, despite definitely being an important theme in our 20s. So I wanted to talk about it today. How can we enjoy the sex we're having despite shame from the past? How can we be more confident? How can we really know what we are after? So much,

about sex comes down to psychology and our mental state and how we're influenced by emotional wounds, attachment, past memories, attitudes, not just towards sex, but towards ourselves. And today we have one of an amazing guest who has a deep expertise in all of these topics. Dr. Emily Jamir, welcome to the psychology of your 20s. Thank you for having me, Gemma. I am so thrilled to be here. And can I just say I wish that this podcast had existed when I was in my 20s. because you have so many great episodes with so much information. So I am so thrilled to be a part of it.

Thank you so much. That's a nice little compliment to start out the episode. I really appreciate that. Can you briefly introduce your work and yourself and what you do? Sure. So I am a sex and relationship therapist. I am based in Houston, Texas. In addition to my clinical practice, I do a lot of public speaking. I just released a book. in November called Anatomy of Desire, Five Secrets to Create Connection and Cultivate Passion, so be sure to check that out. And, you know, as much as possible, I just try to get the word out wherever I can to whomever I can. So there's so much to say about what makes sex great and what we can do to experience that. And so I just love, you know, taking as many opportunities that I can like this. Yeah. Well, we're really, we're really.

really, really excited to have you on. And it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a deep vulnerable topic. So I was like, we need an expert to discuss this, because sexual shame is something that I think a lot of us actually have, but not many of us have the proper words to talk about. And I really want to talk about, I really want to discuss the various ways that shame actually shows up, right, because it's not just one type of experience. What have you tended to find in your practice and your work are the biggest sources of of sexual shame for people, not just in their 20s, but throughout their lives? I think we have to start by defining sexual shame because it is such a big term that, to your

point, can show up and manifest itself in so many different ways. I really love Noelle Clark's definition of sexual shame. She is, she did pioneering research on the topic and actually won a presidential award. So I'd like to share her definition because it is the best. So sexual shame is a visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust for one's own body and identity as a sexual being. It is a belief of being abnormal, inferior and unworthy. This feeling can, be internalized but also manifests in our interpersonal relationships having a negative impact on trust, communication, and physical and emotional intimacy. Sexual shame develops across the lifespan in interactions and interpersonal relationships, one's culture and society, and subsequent critical self-appraisal. There is also a fear of uncertainty with one's power or right to make decisions, including safety decisions related to sexual encounters along with an internalized judgment about

one's own sexual desire. Oh my goodness. A big definition. There's a lot packed into that definition. And that is because sexual shame is slimy. It is sticky. It comes from all different places and can kind of work its way into different nooks and crannies within the psyche, within the psyche, within the the body, within one's thoughts, feelings. Here in the U.S., where I'm based, I would say the

majority of the shame I treat comes from kind of oppressive or rigid religious institutions that, you know, people grow up hearing the message that sex is wrong, sex is bad, save it for someone you love, which is just very confusing. Why would you want to save something bad for someone you love. And so that alone creates a lot of kind of incongruence in feelings. There's also not, we don't have great sex education in our school system. So, you know, information is power. The more you know, the more comfortable you are. Sex is one of those things that, you know, a lot of parents and schools just don't give kids an instruction manual for. You know, you would never put a kid behind the wheel of a car before talking to them about some, you know, basic rules of the road. But for some reason, a lot of people have this idea that sex is this quote unquote natural thing. And for all intensive purposes, it is. But we still need information about it. You know, I see sexual shame pop up because of, of course, the obvious things like sexual trauma. You know, I see it because of emotional trauma. You know, I see it because of emotional trauma.

family of origin trauma, you know, the messages we internalize about our body, about our ability, our worthiness of being loved, our ability to love, all of that has the potential to contribute to feelings of shame and unworthiness. And then, of course, sexuality as well. And, like, you know, and also sometimes even people write into me feeling that they have sexual shame for not having sex. So it's just like very complicated thing where it's like, okay, you, I feel ashamed for having sex. I feel ashamed when I have sex.

I feel ashamed for not having sex. It's like a past, present, future. Every single person seems to be involved in this because of, as you said, what seems to be quite a social and cultural phenomena. And that's really my next question is what are the social but also the emotional roots of this shame. So how does it kind of take hold? Yeah. So first of all, I'm so glad you brought that up about the shame of not having sex because it's interesting, I think particularly for your listeners, people in their 20s, you know, this demographic holds the most sexually expansive views in modern history.

And so sometimes if people are maybe choosing to be monogamous or not very kinky or, you know, know, you name it, sometimes they can be shamed for that as well. And so, you know, really what it's about is accepting everyone, you know, no matter where they choose to fall and, you know, respecting their right to make that decision for themselves. And so really when we talk about the experience of sexual shame and how that looks, what are some of the ways that that shows up emotionally for us. So what are some of the ways that we might be able to recognize it in ourselves? People who are carrying shame often describe feeling kind of small during sex or in general. They may feel like they have difficulty asserting their wants and needs. They may feel that they

don't have a voice. And it's not just emotional. It can be physical too. I mean, it can, you know, I treat a lot of women who experience pain with intercourse because the shame that they've internalized around sex is so profound that it causes their pelvic floor muscles to tighten up, you know, in a way that's out of their control. And so some of these women are unable to have intercourse because the pelvic floor muscles are kind of clamping shut. It can manifest itself in thoughts as well, feelings of, you know, I'm not worthy enough. I'm not good enough. I don't deserve sexual pleasure. I don't feel that I have sexual autonomy. I don't feel like my sexual desires or needs are important or worthy. You know, it can show up in all different ways,

mental, emotional, and physical. I really like that you brought up the physical side of this as well, because we think about shame is something that's very cognitive, very emotional, as we said, something that impacts us in the mind, not always realizing that, of course, the mind and the body are very, very, very, like, they're the same thing. Yeah, you can't separate them. And trauma, shame, really intense emotions always show up in the body, in muscle tension, in, you know, a suppressed immune system, in sort of. in chronic pain. And as you said, like with shame showing up in like, what was it like pelvic

floor contractions? Yes. Spasms. And spasms, which is like very, very interesting. It's very important, I think, to note that is that your sexual shame is not something that is only going to be, it's not just in your mind. It's something that's very real and very tangible. And when we've experienced it for a long time, how does that, impact our ability to connect with others. And maybe not just like intimately, but emotionally as well. Do you see that have you seen in your practice that the shame sometimes even starts to extend beyond sex? Oh, yeah. I mean, I very rarely distinguish sex from, you know, emotional connection because the two are so inextricably linked in my mind. So people who are carrying shame can enter into a pattern

of unhealthy relationships, maybe because they just don't believe that they are worthy of love that, you know, can be expressed healthy and is multidirectional. They may over-rely on sex to feel affirmed or validated in their relationship, and that can be kind of a pleasure inhibitor. They may kind of tune out during sex and dissociate, which is also a big pleasure inhibitor. And so you know, I think it's really important for people to pay very close attention to the sensations they're experiencing in their body when they are sexual, you know, are you experiencing a tightness in your chest? Shame oftentimes shows up in the gut, you know, we'll get kind of a pit in our stomach or a feeling of nausea. That's that like feeling of disgust. And so it's important

if you're not experiencing pleasure during sex, what sensations are you? experiencing. Just beginning by identifying them and naming them is a really great first step in mindfulness, which can help begin the process of moving them out. I really want to focus on something you just said actually, which was two things, which was overrelying on sex in a relationship and feeling like you're zoning out when you're having sex. Maybe focusing on that first one. Why do people, because obviously when we think sexual shame, we think wanting to avoid sex, right? And wanting and having such negative attitudes towards it that it doesn't have an active role in your life. But what is this over-reliance on in a relationship?

So that stems from a place of an internalized message that you have to have sex or be sexual for someone else rather than for yourself or as part of, you know, a more mutual relational connected experience. So what happens is you kind of take yourself out of the equation and people who do this can have sex that's very performative. You know, they may do things that they don't necessarily like because they think doing so will please their partner and make their partner, you know, more likely to stay with them. And it can kind of fill an emotional void temporarily in the moment because, you know, theoretically, we feel seen when we're naked in bed with another person. But if that feeling of intimacy, that emotional intimacy isn't going both

ways and if it's just to fill someone else's cup because doing so feels good, that feeling is not going to last. It's going to end up, you know, kind of leaving you empty at the end of the day. And I can also imagine I would put such a strain on the relationship because, you know, you're having sex when you don't want to, maybe you want to please them. So it's like a secondary one, right? It's not the primary one of wanting to have sex. It's the secondary one. And I'm sure that actually leads to a lot of resentment as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you continuously put the needs of other people over your own. Eventually, it does build up your anger and resentment and ultimately drops your self-esteem even more. Again, you've taken yourself out of the equation.

So if someone is dealing with that and they're like, okay, well, actually what I'm finding is I'm just saying yes to how, I'm offering sex even. I'm offering sex, which I'm sure is a big thing because, you know, I know that's what my partner really wants and I actually don't really want it, but I want to make them happy. And I'm feeling so numb when we have sex. I'm actually not even enjoying this. Like, I'm not not enjoying it, but I'm not feeling anything. How would you recommend people address that? Is it to take sex off the table? Or how would you go about that? To an extent, I think it's really helpful. You know, there's always the question, do you address the emotional stuff first or do you address the sexual stuff first? And, you know, most people say,

well, you have to dress the emotional stuff first or else you're not going to be able to heal the sexual stuff. And I take a little bit of a different approach. Like I said earlier, I don't really separate sex and emotion. And so, you know, for people who might be struggling with this, I'll have them take really small baby steps and work their way up. So they're kind of rounding the bases again. That may look like, you know, spending some time cuddling with your partner, maybe even with your clothes on, seeing how it feels to accept like a massage or a caress from your partner without the expectation of doing anything back to them and noticing, you know, what's happening in that moment? Am I fighting the urge to surrender and relax and just enjoy

this moment for myself? Or am I kind of tensing up? Are my thoughts wandering? Is my mind kind of zoning out, just noticing what's happening in that moment and continuing to kind of repeat that several times until you start to, at a minimum, experience it more neutrally and hopefully until you start to have more positive feelings about the experience and then starting to work your way into, you know, more and more sex acts, if you will, that kind of progress things along, just depending on what your comfort level is. Now, you have to have a partner who's willing to help you through this process. You know, there's a lot of healing that can happen within oneself individually, but so much of our healing happens in relation to other people. And it's not uncommon at all for

people who are holding on to shame, like I said, to kind of get into unhealthy relationship patterns. and, you know, I wouldn't recommend doing what I just described with someone who, you know, is toxic or unhealthy for whatever reason. So it may mean that you start this process with a new relationship partner once you have had a bit more time to establish kind of some emotional safety and trust and take your time. I really like that what you just said there, that a lot of healing does happen in relation to others. And perhaps it's a good sign that if you're with someone who is like, No, I'm not going to respect this complete reversal of our intimate lives and this in this complete return to first base, second base. Like, how is that going to be in 20 years? Yeah.

None of this will ever be healed, I think, if something doesn't change. And it might change within the relationship or the relationship might be the thing that needs to change. You know what I mean? Precisely. Precisely. If someone's not willing to take that walk with you hand in hand, then. You know, that's a big red flag. I want to move on to how we can unlearn sexual shame by ourselves.

So without a partner, a single people, maybe as someone who's never even had sex, or as, you know, whatever it is your situation is, if you've found in the past that you're entering intimate situations and just being like, okay, like, my priorities you're out the window, I'm going to do whatever. whatever they want to do or I just feel disgusting after this or whatever it is. How do we unlearn that as a single person or as a solo person? Yeah, such a great question. I'm going to give y'all some really good tools. I say y'all because I'm in Texas. I love it. I was like, it's fun. So first thing you have to know is that the sexual shame you have is not yours to carry. It was put on you by either another individual, by a culture, by a religious institution, by implicit or explicit

negative messages about sex and you, because you're human, have internalized it as your own. But the first step is recognizing that it does not belong to you. That's number one. Number two, you want to identify what the negative thoughts are that you have about. your body, about desire, about asserting your needs, about voicing your preferences, and begin the process of replacing them with the thoughts that you would like to have. So if you hold on to the belief like, my body is not worthy of pleasure, first ask yourself where that belief came from and then flip it into my body was hardwired for pleasure.

and then start doing things that allow you the experience of pleasure. Maybe it starts with non-sexual things. Maybe, you know, enjoying a, you know, really great piece of chocolate or hot tea or, you know, savoring little pleasures in life just to kind of start those pathways and getting them to fire and then gradually working your way, you know, into the intimate realm. I also really love somatic work for this. You know, as we talked about before, shame is stored in the body. So I will literally have people, like, let's say they are experiencing shame because of negative messages they got from the church or maybe even because of a trauma that they experienced.

I will have them write a letter to whoever that person or entity was that made them feel that way. It's not a letter that they will ever give to that person. But I will have them imagine that person sitting in an empty chair across the way. from them and reading the letter aloud. And then I'll have them hold something like a tissue box over the area of their body where they're holding shame and like pull the tissues out one by one. It can kind of like give people the feeling of pulling the emotion off or even getting like a towel and like wiping away the area and the body where that shame is.

those kinds of exercises can actually be really profound and transformative for people. And so just as, you know, the healing begins, you know, I think within an individual, those are a few things that I really like and recommend to clients. Semantic therapy and semantic healing, probably one of my favorite, my favorite forms of healing. Yeah, it's really up there because it's like, again, if trauma and emotions are stored in the body, how could we think that, you know, moving beyond them or processing them or regulating them is not going to include the body. Yeah, exactly.

You can't short-circuiter. No, exactly. We're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to return with Dr. Emily Jamir to talk about sexual confidence and how we can feel good about ourselves. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness,

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Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We are back with Dr. Emily Jamia. and I want to talk about sexual confidence because sexual shame is one thing. But then we might also not have any sexual shame, but just not feel like we really know what we're doing and we're not feeling amazing in our bodies. And I think a big part of sex is just feeling good about yourself. You know, I don't want to have sex with my partner or go on dates or even look for a sexual partner if I don't feel good. And if I don't have sexual confidence. So how is this something that we can build without necessarily just having more.

sex. Yeah. I love this. You know, when people come in with a sexual issue, I'll kind of ask them where they feel like they fall on a scale of negative 10 to positive 10, where negative 10 is like, holy hell and everyone do that again. And positive 10 is like swilling in from the chandeliers. So we've talked so far about how to move out the shame and hopefully gotten people to a place of neutrality. But this is like the fun part. Like how do we start building the positive feelings and sensations that we want to experience so that we can, you know, explore and experience our full sexual and erotic potential. Once you have hopefully relearned some thoughts or change some beliefs that you may hold, I think it's really helpful to talk to other people who maybe are in

your circle who are more sexually confident. You know, we feed off each other's energy. And people who are holding shame, like I said before, oftentimes don't feel. like they have much of a voice. And so, you know, hopefully at this point in the game, people are starting to feel more comfortable with the idea, at least, of great sex. Talking to a friend, you know, find the Samantha in your group. I don't know if your listeners watch sex in the city or if, like, they're too young for that. But they definitely, they definitely do. Okay. Good. So, you know, find the friend who, you know, has kind of an unabashed, you know, feeling about her sexuality or his sexuality and ask them what that's like for them. And you will see

them start to light up. You will see their posture open up. You will see them sit a little taller. And ideally, that will kind of invite your body to do the same. We have mirror neurons in our brain. So when one person, you know, for example, describes what it's like to eat a warm chocolate chip cookie, our brains, if looked at under an MRI, can light up as if we're the ones, experiencing eating the cookie. So talking to people who feel really great about their sexuality can be a really simple, easy way to just begin getting a sense of what it's like to have some of those feelings within your own body. I also think we need to spend more time naked. You know, you cannot expect to feel totally comfortable and open with your body in the presence of

another person if you can't do so yourself. So I would. will have people, you know, slowly undress in front of the mirror and, you know, look at and explore their body, touch themselves head to toe, move around. You know, a lot of women have never looked at their genitalia or their vulvas in a mirror before. So, you know, getting comfortable with how your vulva looks or how, you know, your penis looks. Guys are used to it because it's external, but a lot of women haven't. You know, educating yourself as much as possible, like I said before, knowledge is power, you know, understand and know your own anatomy. Self pleasure is huge. So, you know, begin to discover what feels good to you. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

So finding, you know, there's tons of lists online. I have one in my book, like a yes, no, maybe type of list where, you know, you see all different kinds of things you might do sexually mapped out and you can start to think about what you would be comfortable with versus maybe not so much, just to start having an idea so that when you are with a partner, you can start expressing those desires, you know, rather than just kind of submitting to them and letting them do what they think feels good to you. So, you know, those are just a few things I think people can do that really go a long way and boosting confidence. Do you want to hear a funny story? I would love to.

About what, so when you said we need to spend more time naked, I'm going to tell a funny story about an interaction with a listener. Because I'm a big, I'm just revealing myself yet. I'm a big fan of this. Maybe because I like grew up, like, I don't know, when we were kids, we'd always run around naked. Like, we were fine with our bodies and all those things. And I remember probably a couple of months ago, I was at a beach in Sydney. That's a nude beach. Because why not?

It's like a women's nude beach. It's very popular. And I'm in the water with my friends and we're splashing around fully naked, having the best time, just being very, very open and the sun is shining. And I come up back up onto like the little dock area. And these girls have kind of been watching me. And I'm like, I was like, oh, like, am I embarrassing myself? You know, we're being pretty open about it and they go, oh my gosh, are you the host of the psychology of your 20s? And I hope they're listening to this episode because I just turned beat red. Oh my God. I was so embarrassed. So if you like even do it, and you know what, but I survived. So even doing

things like that, like it's a funny story now. I was I was mortified and I'm not someone who's embarrassed either. But even doing something like that, I was like, wow, that made me feel really weird, but then actually afterwards now it's become a funny story, and it's about turning what could have been a really embarrassing, shameful experience into one that is something you can laugh about and that you can be like, well, of course, that's where people would see me because that's what I do. Like, that's how I enjoy my life and I enjoy my city and I enjoy the water and all those things. So I love that. And it probably not only inspired those listeners, but gave you a lot more street cred that you, like, actually practice what you preach on the show.

I sure do. I was playing mermaids naked in the beach. So there you go, everybody. There's a little tip of it. I'm going to move back on to my actual professional real life questions about a very important topic. But what advice would you maybe give someone who wants to fully embrace and explore their sexuality without a partner and not solo? look, how could you go about asking for what you want in sex whenever you want to, I guess, have sex? Yeah. So a lot of people ask me that question and they'll add to that question and without it feeling awkward. And I'm like, step one is you lean into the feeling of awkward. And you may even lead with that. You know, you can say something along the lines of, listen, I have been doing a lot of personal work on myself lately, trying to feel more confident. And I am still, I've made a lot of

progress, but I'm still working on my confidence with other people. And even saying this to you is kind of awkward and uncomfortable for me. But I heard on Psychology of your 20s that putting that out there, you know, can go a long way and helping me feel closer to you. Because it does, you know, inviting your partner to be a part of the process is intimacy building. You know, that is relational. Like I said before, shame is put on you, but pleasure oftentimes happens, you know, in relation to another person. And you can say, you know, I'm still exploring sexuality. I don't even know what I don't know.

But, you know, I think we have a really great connection. We have established some trust. And, you know, I just want to ask you to be supportive through this journey. And I'm going to practice with you asserting my desires and. expressing my needs and I want to know if you're okay with that. A good partner is going to say like, heck yes, I want to be a part of this journey with you. You know, anyone who replies with anything less enthusiastic than that probably isn't the right partner for you to begin this process with. So yeah, to summarize, just kind of lead with it, hey, this is uncomfortable for me, but I trust you.

Can you hold my hand through this process? And I guess also if it's like a person, and that you're not dating, like a, you know, a little bit of a fling or like a little bit of a hookup. I feel like the worst thing they can say is no. Maybe they could tell other people, but honestly, anytime someone has told me any details about someone else in their sex life, I've been like, you're the asshole. Like, I've never thought any poor, I've never thought poor thoughts about someone who someone else's, you know, uninvited, unolicited, told me something about them intimately. Yeah. Yeah. So I think if that's what you're worried about, you've got to realize that no one who is actually a decent person will judge you for your sexual desires as long as they're obviously legal and not hurting other people. You know, if that's what you're embarrassed about. Embarrassment sometimes comes with the territory, right? It does. Now, look, we don't see the embarrassing stuff that happens all the time during sex in movies and TV. They edit that part out, right? But.

I mean, there's going to be a weird noise or an awkward position or a wet spot. Like, you know, that's just sex is wonderful and pleasurable and joyish, but it can be messy too. And that's okay. You know, I want to say, though, I would caution anyone on this, on kind of initiating this process with a casual sex partner because I do think that trust and safety are such an important foundation in healing shame. So, you know, ideally you want to do it with someone who you've established that with. Yeah, very good advice. I want to just move on to one final section of questioning, which is about libido. People ask me about libido all the time.

And obviously, I've had my own personal experiences, but it was something I always didn't really want to touch because I was like I was waiting for the right guest. And here you are. So now I have all these listener questions that I wanted to answer for so long, because people do really struggle with it. And you think that you shouldn't struggle with libido in your 20s because you should be, you know, ready to have sex and like super into it all the time. Constantly, you're young, the fittest and healthy as you've maybe ever been. A lot of these experiences might be new and you're the early days in relationships, whatever it is. People feel a lot of pressure.

We're having sex all the time. what would you say to someone who feels like their libido is almost too high or too low? Yeah, so we have to first, we can't pathologize people who have low libido necessarily. I mean, ideally you want to partner up with someone who approximates your level of interest. Couples run into trouble when there's a really big gap between how much or little someone wants to experience sex. You know, there are also people who identify as being asexual who just, you know, aren't in touch with that part of their life. And there's no problem with that. You know, they have really meaningful friendships. They might even have romantic relationships that don't include sex. You know, but there's a lot happening in our 20s. I think the biggest shift is that people are beginning to make the transition from kind of hormone-driven sex to emotional. driven sex, you know, the prefrontal cortex part of our brain isn't fully formed until we're 25. And, you know, a lot of the sexual desire and urges that happen prior to that, in part, are coming

from this kind of surge of hormones, you know, that are pushing us to potentially reproduce and, you know, pair bond and things like that. But as those hormones and neurochemicals start to level out, we're starting to, I think, in our 20s and especially later 20s, I would say, kind of discover and explore what motivates us to have sex from an emotional place, from an interpersonal place. And so, you know, I'm not surprised to hear that, you know, your listeners may kind of struggle to understand their libido in their 20s. You know, I'm a sex therapist. I've been doing this work since my early 20s. And, you know, hindsight's always 2020. I feel like I didn't. really fully come into my own until I was over the age of 30, you know. So it just, I think, takes time for people as we mature and have kind of more maturely, you know, driven sex. It's, it's different from how it is when we're, you know, in our adolescence and early 20s. I really, I like that you just said that it got better, like after 30. Like, that's when you really came into your own. Yeah. I mean, I've done a lot of research on Desire. It's what I wrote a book about.

And, you know, I talked to a lot of people who maintained a strong sexual connection through the decades to find out what they did to sustain it. And none of them talked about sex in their 20s being the best sex of their lives. And none of them talked about the honeymoon stage being the greatest sex they had experienced. So we have to like totally move past the idea that great sex is reserved for like the young and able-bodied because that or only exist within the early stages of a relationship because that couldn't be further from the truth. And I really enjoyed that you said libido as an idea. Like it's it's really about finding someone who matches that. And therefore I think perhaps the shame disappears when it's like,

oh my God, I don't feel like I have to keep saying no. Or I don't feel like I have to keep saying yes, you know what I mean? So it's really, really very fun. I have one final question for you, and I really want you to talk about your book a little bit, because if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be like your book is just like the perfect companion. But this is the question I ask every single guest on the show, which is what is your biggest piece of advice for people in their 20s, and it doesn't have to be what we spoke about today.

The best is yet to come. You know, I think that's what I would say. You know, the 20s is, your 20s is a time of transformation and, you know, self-exploration and understanding. But I, you know, when I was in my early 20s, I had a therapist who said, you know, Emily, I think you need to really think hard about making any long-term relationship decisions until you're at least 30 because you just don't know. know yourself until then. And she was right. You know, I just think that what I want to encourage people to do in their 20s is continue to explore and push themselves outside their comfort zone and have new experiences and meet people and know that through that you will grow in your own understanding. But I think as we mature, God, I'm sounding really old right now. But I think as we

mature. The confidence that comes with that brings about such a sense of peace that in many ways life feels a lot easier. You know what? That made me feel great. The best is here to come. As someone who's made their career on their 20s so far, I think that's definitely something that I needed to hear. So where can people find your book? And more generally, what is it about? What could they, what kind of information and learnings will they hopefully take from it? Yeah. So, you know, what inspired my book is I'd been doing this work for like 15 years and I could help people improve desire, orgasms, you know, help women overcome pain, that sort of thing. But people often came back like wanting more intensity, more impassion, more passion. And as I started paying closer

attention to the language they were using. I realized, you know, words like effortless. I want to feel lost in the moment. I want the world around me to disappear. I'm like, they're talking about a flow state. For people listening who don't know what a flow state is, it's when we are engaged in an activity in which we experience that complete absorption, a sense of merger, loss of space and time, like a surfer who's at one with the wave. And I was like, well, yeah, like, of course people want to experience a flow state during sex. That's like what gives it that transcendent feel. So I turned to the literature to see what I could find and there was nothing out there. I couldn't find a single paper that looked at the research or I'm sorry, at the relationship between great sex and flow state.

So I did my own research study, went on to publish my findings and that eventually set the premise for the book. I called up, you know, my research participants and had really, long conversations with them, with the ones that got high scores about what precisely they did to experience the state of flow during sex. And these five themes emerged, which are the five secrets in the book. So we've got sensuality, curiosity, adaptability, vulnerability, and attunement. And woven through those secrets is the science of flow. And I think what's really exciting to me about those five qualities is that we're born. with them. You know, look at any child. They are born sensual, curious, with the ability to attune,

to adapt to new environments. And so this is really, it explores, you know, not becoming someone that you're not, but really about looking within and reconnecting with qualities that are already there within us. I am sold. I'm sold. I feel I love those five things. Like that just describe as passion in any area of your life, right? Like, that's so brilliant. This might be like an out-of-left-field question, but what was your favorite secret? What was your favorite chapter or section of the book to write? I think curiosity was probably my favorite. I think it is the one that makes the most sense to people. You know, I think most people have an idea that sexual novelty is good for long-term satisfaction, and that's reflected in the research. But

I explore it in a way that I think is a bit different from how most people think of it. Flow state has eight components. And one of the most predictable ways to experience flow in anything is something called the challenge skills ratio. So what we know from flow state science is that we want the challenge of what we're doing to be just 4% greater than our skill set. If the challenge is too high, we experience anxiety and fear. If the challenge is too low, we experience boredom and monotony.

That's kind of where a lot of people end up with sex. But when people start exploring, sometimes they just dive into the deep end way too fast because the difference was too great. So, you know, I think what I talk about in the book is, you know, how to strike that balance between familiarity and, you know, and novelty so that, you know, it just doesn't take much to get in the zone and how to have those conversations with your partner. And I just really enjoyed writing that chapter because I also encourage a lot of self-exploration. Like, you know, this whole episode we've been talking about how to release shame and inhibition. And I have a whole section in that chapter about how to think about your sexual values and explore how maybe they've changed today versus what you've

kind of taken on as the default. And I have a questionnaire in there. So it, it touches on a lot of different areas of growth within sexuality, which I think a lot of people can relate to. I think that's a beautiful summary. And I'm really hoping that a lot of you guys find what you're looking for in this book, and the same way that you hopefully found what you were looking for. In this episode, I'm going to leave a link to where you can, is it pre-order? It's available. Yeah. I was going to. I'm saying. Yeah.

Most people come on for pre-orders and I'm like, oh, wait, maybe not this time. I will leave a link in the episode description where you can order this book, The Anatomy of Desire. And I have tons of like online learning materials that are free with purchase. So be sure to like go back over to my website after you get the book and you fill out a form and you'll get like hundreds of dollars worth of like free stuff. So it's a good deal. Guys, that's an investment. That really is an investment. Well, thank you again for coming on the podcast. I hope that everyone who listened, enjoyed this episode and got something out of it.

Feel free to send it to someone, maybe a partner who you think could really get something out of this episode as well. Maybe a friend, someone you've spoken to about these themes and these topics before. As always, if you have episode suggestions, if you want to continue the conversation, if you have feedback or further comments about this episode, you can always DM me on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast. And until next time, stay safe. Be kind, be gentle to yourself. And we will talk very, very soon. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships. And you will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO% on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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