The Psychology of your 20s - 271. Overcoming our purpose anxiety ft. Elizabeth Gilbert

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

In this episode I had the rare and wonderful opportunity to interview a personal hero of mine, the author of Big Magic and Eat Pray Love, writer, true creative and teacher, Elizabeth Gilbert. We discuss why the idea of 'purpose' is incorrect and making us confused and anxious, how to identify your calling, the difference between a career, hobby, job and calling, and how she managed setbacks and failure.  We also discuss the creative process, her wisdom for imposter syndrome and how to let go of your worry and anxiety and have an authentic, true human experience. Listen now!  Find Liz here: https://www.elizabethgilbert.com/    PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/general-clean Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast For business: [e-mail]    The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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down the psychology of our 20s. If you have been a long time listener of the podcast, you will know that there is one TED Talk I reference probably three to four times a year and it's titled Your Elusive Creative Genius by Elizabeth Gilbert. This TED Talk entirely changed how I thought about success, how I thought about inspiration, failure and on a deeper level what it really meant to be human when Elizabeth or or Liz, as she is more commonly known as, released her book, Big Magic. It once again changed my life, and it is firmly one of my favorite, probably most read books

of all time. When I was first really getting listeners with the podcast back in 2021, someone asked me who my dream guest would be, and I said, Liz, because of that book, because of how incredible her mind is, because of all the books that she has since written, and all the wisdom that she really has to share. And it was a huge dream back in 2021, one that I really never thought was going to happen. But now in 2025, it's somehow finally come true. And I couldn't be more excited to have Liz on the podcast to discuss how to find our purpose, how to keep making and creating things, dealing with failure, managing success, and the best advice she has for people in

20s. This episode is so very special to me and will forever have a place in my heart, but I also just hope you all enjoy it and you learn something. All right, without further ado, I want to welcome on Liz Gilbert to the show, to the psychology of your 20s. Liz, can you briefly introduce yourself and tell us about your work? Yes, first of all, I'm so happy to be here and honored to be here talking to you. My name is Liz Gilbert. I'm known, I guess, professionally as Elizabeth Gilbert, but that feels weird to introduce myself that way. I'm the author of Eat, Pray, Love, and Big Magic, and the signature of all things, and City of Girls, and a bunch of other books. And I also have, I'm a fiction and nonfiction author, but I also spend a lot of time

teaching. And I don't teach writing, because I don't know how, but I teach a sort of general spirit of creativity, what I call creative living, a way of living where I simply define it this way, where you make your decisions based on your curiosity rather than your fear. And that ends up becoming a very creative life. So I'm sort of known also for that as being a teacher of creativity and kind of spirituality. That would be an amazing job title to have. A teacher. teacher of creativity and spirituality. Yeah. I'm like, all right.

So new career path unlocked. That sounds amazing. Great. Let's change the vision board up. I think I said this in my introduction, but most people know you for big magic, not for big magic, for eat pray love, probably. I think I was a little bit too young to really understand eat pray love. But I did really understand big magic.

And it was just such a beautiful book that I continue to reference to this day. Do you remember, you know, in the interest of understanding purpose, do you remember when you kind of realized like, oh, I'm going to be a writer? I'm going to be this creative, curious person. This is my calling. Yeah. And I'm really glad you used the word calling because I would love to just launch in with some thoughts that I have about the word purpose and how much.

anxiety that word causes. Can we can we just start with that? Absolutely. Because it's obviously a lot of of people listening to this are like in their 20s and the amount of them that email me being like, I don't know what my purpose is. Oh, my God. Okay, let's get into it. Let's get into it. My honeies, my sweeties, you have been so terribly misinformed. This is my opinion. Everything I'm saying is my own opinion, take what you like and leave the rest, but I will throw out into the void and it will land on whoever it needs to land on, that there's this thing called purpose anxiety. And I scarcely know anybody who doesn't suffer from it. And I know some of the people who appear to be at the very, very, very top of a purpose driven life and have apparently achieved it. And they also

still suffer from purpose anxiety. And the reason that everybody suffers from purpose anxiety is because everyone in Western contemporary culture has been told this same theology. And it really is a theology. And you've been told variants of this from the time you were born and you've heard it in every graduation and commencement speech and in every self-help book. And no one has ever questioned whether it even makes sense or whether it is even true. But here is the theology. Everyone is born with a unique purpose that is completely, their own and totally unrelated to anybody else. It's one thing that only you can do, nobody but you can do it.

So already that creates anxiety in me because there's 8 billion people on the planet. And so what? I'm supposed to find something in me that is that no one else can do. Like that doesn't, the math don't even add up on that, right? And you should, you should know it from the time that you're born. And you should always know what it is. It should be extremely. extremely clear what it is. And then your job is to devote your entire life to that one thing. And if you miss the boat and it's too late and you haven't gotten on that, you should be extremely anxious and ashamed of yourself that you don't know what it is. I mean, this is what people are taught. And then you must become the master of that thing. You must devote an

enormous amount of time, attention, and money to mastering whatever that thing is, that unique spark that nobody else has. And then you must monetize it. Because if you make your money, doing anything other than the thing that is your unique spark and purpose, then you are a failure. And it's not enough that you must monetize it. You must become the best at it. And you must also create opportunity for others. And you must then change the world through your purpose. This is what literally everybody is told. And no wonder, everybody is full of anxiety about it. And I mean, if we can just break it down for a minute, it's, first of all, it comes from a place of enormous, hubris and arrogance to

pretend to believe like to think that you can know what you are here for when we don't even know what this is this planet consciousness this experience like we don't even know we literally have no idea

what's going on and like why your soul was dropped into your particular body and born into your like we can't know and anybody who pretends that they know you should be very suspicious of them so there's an enormous arrogance. Also, can you hear how self-centered it is? Purpose theology comes from Western men. And so it's all about, I have to be incredibly important. I actually have to be the most important. And I have to

change the world in my own image. And this whole idea, even that you have to change the world, there's a tremendous arrogance in that too, because I think at this point, if you look around the planet, the world is pretty clearly saying, like, I wish you people would stop changing me. Yeah. It's saying like you've done enough. You've done enough. And the people have led the most purpose-driven lives are the people who have perhaps done the most damage to the planet and to other people. So everything about it is so distorted. And all it does is cause people to suffer. And I've met the people who are living at the top of that game. And they are not relaxed. They are not at peace. And they never know whether they've done enough. Have they changed the world enough? Have they made it a big enough impact. Oh, and if you're thinking, great, I can't wait to die because then

this whole purpose anxiety thing will be over, you're also supposed to leave a legacy. Right. So it like never ends. The self-centeredness, the arrogance and the anxiety of purpose theology never end. So what I am gently here to offer as a counterpoint to a purpose driven life is a life of presence. Because the other thing about a purpose-driven life is that it constantly has you in the future. You can't live a purpose-driven, anxiety-driven theology without always being locked in the future of like, who am I going to become, what am I going to do, what is my impact going to be, who am I going to affect? And you completely miss life. You completely miss life. I mean, my favorite spiritual teacher, Byron Katie, says, if you want to suffer, get a future.

So this obsession with the future will bring you nothing but pain. So the contrary position to take is a life of presence, which is simply being a witness to the extraordinary, unknowable, miraculous strangeness of being a human being on this planet and observing it and being like, this is so, I mean, because it is objectively interesting. It's not safe this planet. It never has been for people, but it's a really interesting experience. It definitely is. It's a really interesting experience to be who you are in your culture that you were dropped in at this moment of history.

And I think that experience itself would like a few people to relax and observe it and actually be like, this is wild. Like this is absolutely wild. and I don't know what I am, and I don't know who I am, and I don't know where I'm going, and I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, but it is very interesting to be here. And if you start from that perspective and you begin to follow the track of your curiosity of what's most interesting, you will have an interesting life. You may not have a life that certain kinds of people would look at, and say is successful, but I'm not interested in those kinds of people.

They're not part of the conversation. I have a friend who says, everybody's got a brother-in-law named Phil who's like, yeah, but what are you doing? Like, what are you doing for your job? Like, what's your plan? Like, must be nice to take, you know, must be nice to, you know, like, just everyone's got that in their life. And Phil must be ignored.

Phil must be ignored. It's so funny. Like, I see this on social media all the time. where it's like often some young woman or young man like exploring some creative side of them making art posting just for fun whatever it is writing just for fun and there's always someone in the comments being like must be nice not to have work a full-time job like must be nice to take a break and I'm like well yeah it is really nice I'm sure it is really nice for them to do that in fact it is thank you it's lovely in fact it's lovely like I get it all the time with people like people will come

across like the podcast and come across like my online presence and we'll be like wow you call that work you call that whatever like and get really upset with me and i'm like honestly all i'm hearing there is a desire to have what i have like you think that your reality of needing to prove yourself and work hard and never take a day off and always be like thinking about your family and thinking about everyone else like that doesn't actually sound particularly desirable so i often like that's how i try and treat it. I'm like I just feel kind of bad for those people who were raised again with the theology that you have one purpose and if you haven't found it bad luck, time to be miserable and just work the nine to five. You have wasted your life. Yeah. It also treats life rather than being a

miraculous, mysterious, unknowable gift. It treats it as something that must be earned that you must earn your place. You must earn your right to be here. And, And whatever created you doesn't seem to think so because it just dropped you here. It didn't seem to think you had to earn your right to be here. And, you know, I also, I would love to just take a moment and talk about these four different things that people often amalgamate into one thing. And that also causes anxiety. And the four things are hobby, job, career, and calling.

So I just want to take a moment and distinguish between these four things. Okay, so a hobby is something that you do because it's fun and you like it. And that's the thing that you post on social media. People are like, must be nice to take a pottery class. Yeah, it is nice. And hobbies actually bring an end to anxiety, like puttering about, making things for no reason, doing something simply because it's a pleasure until very recently everyone had hobbies. And most of life was just people doing stuff because they liked doing it and it was fun. and it doesn't have to be monetized.

You don't have to be the best at it. You don't have to become famous at it. My biggest suggestion to people who are in purpose, anxieties, is to get a hobby that has absolutely no connection to anything productive and enjoy it because life is also meant to be enjoyed. So that's a hobby. A job. A job is a thing that unless you are a trust fund baby or landed gentry, you have to have.

But here's the thing. You don't have to like it. Like I've had so many jobs in my life that I've done. didn't like, you don't have to like it. It doesn't have to be your purpose. You don't have to be great at it. You don't have to come. It doesn't have to consume your entire life. It's just a thing you have to do to make some money so that you can go home and have hobbies. Right. I love that. I love that way of thinking about it. Get a job. You know, just get a job. It doesn't like, like, and you, it's like, don't give your heart to it. Deliver 30% at work.

You know, like they'll never know. Like a job is a place where you can go and just phone it in and they'll never know. Yeah. I always say to people, I'm always like just act, act your wage. Like, act your wage. Like if you're getting paid minimum wage, exactly. Like, if you're getting paid minimum wage, minimum work. And this goes totally against capitalism, purpose, anxiety to say that in theology, but just show up, do the least you can do to get your, to keep your job and then have your life be outside of your job with the things that you're curious about, the things that you enjoy, the people that you like being with. So that's a job. It's not the same as a hobby. The next thing is a career. So a career is a job that you're passionate about. Right. That's all a career is. Don't act like your

job is your career if you're not passionate about it. Like don't try to make a job into a career if you're just like, this is just my job, you know? But if you are passionate about it and you feel like this is what I'm here to do and I'm here to serve humanity in this way, then you pour yourself into your job. So a career is a job that you pour yourself into because it brings you so much love and satisfaction. And it doesn't even matter how much they pay you. You would want to do it anyway. And like you really do show up for a career. But you don't have to have a career. Like you do have to have a job, but you don't have to have a career. And if you are in a career and you don't love it, you should quit and get a job.

Like if your career is destroying your life, just go get a job. There's lots of jobs. Just go get a job and then have hobbies and then have friends. And then the final thing is a calling. And a calling is something that you feel you are compelled to do because it's a spiritual fulfillment. And not everybody has one. and not everybody needs to have one.

And if you have one, you'll know because you already have it. And if you don't have one, you don't have to go out there searching for it because don't worry about it. It's something you can't create. You can't create a calling. You either like higher power gave you one or didn't. And maybe one will come later or maybe it won't. So you can just relax about it. And if you've got a calling, then you devote yourself to it and it's got absolutely nothing to do with whether you're being paid or not.

And no one can ever take it away from you. I can lose my career. So my calling is to be a writer. and I knew that ever since I was nine years old. But it wasn't my career until I was 30. But through that entire time before it became my career, it was my calling. So I did it while I had jobs, I did my calling. Nobody wanted me to do it.

Nobody paid me to do it. Nobody was interested in me doing it. And then over time, it became my career. My career can be destroyed. AI can take my career away. people can fire me. The world can decide it doesn't want to read Elizabeth Gilbert Gilbert books anymore.

Like there are so many ways I can lose my career. I'm not in control of that and I'm aware of that. And if I ever lose my career, I'll just go get a job and go back to having hobbies. But nobody can take my calling away. Nobody could stop me from writing when I wanted to write, even though they weren't paying me to. And nobody can stop me from writing now if my career folds. So that's the difference between a hobby.

a job, a calling, and a career. And it's so important to know the difference because we live in a culture that has pushed them all together and said that you should have one thing that's all of that. And it isn't true. So I just want to just clarify that for everybody. I can honestly feel the anxiety fading from people right now because that is probably the biggest series slash dilemma of questions that I get, which is how do I know what? I'm meant to do? How do I choose between these two jobs that one I'm more passionate about, one I'm less passionate about? How do I, you know, get the spark back for life? And honestly, I think a lot of the questions come back to that distinction between these four very distinct

when you think about it categories of being and categories of existing. I actually, when I first started the podcast, it was very similar. Like, it was this weird thing where I just knew that this is what I was meant to do. It was a calling. And I genuinely had no listeners. I recorded it in the back of my car. And I always tell the story of like in the first episodes, you can literally hear like trucks going by. You can hear birds in the background because I'm recording it on my phone. And it really didn't matter who listened. I just felt like I had to do it. There's an analogy that you have in your book. And also in your TED talk about how an idea will sometimes just be dropped in your lap and you kind of have to make a contract with it. And it kind of appears out of nowhere,

right? And it's just like, oh, oh my God, I've just had this brilliant idea. Some spirit has given it to me. The wind has shifted and brought it to me. And I just love how you say it's like, whatever it is is trying to find the person who's going to make it reality. Like it's going to try and find the best conduit for it to be real. And I honestly felt that about the psychology of your 20s. It was like, people ask me how I came up with the idea. And I'm like, I genuinely have no idea. Like I have no idea. It just came to me and I just knew I had to do it. But I do think that my relationship with it changed when I started making money and when it did become the thing that paid my bills that allowed me, you know, it became a job, a hobby, a career and a calling all it was.

And I'm sure that was probably the case with writing for you as well. 100%. What happened when that shifted, when the dynamic, shifted entirely? Well, yeah, when money is introduced, it changes everything. And it's not that I'm anti-money. I'm very delighted that I can make my living doing this. I think the really important thing that I have, that I've had to remember, and I've had to carry this through my entire career,

is that, well, I mean, it doesn't matter what your career is this. I'm just thinking this is actually the truth, no matter what you're doing, whether you're a civil engineer or a painter. Like it doesn't, you know, nothing is promised. You know, nothing is promised and nothing is owed. Nowhere was there some sort of contract, either a social contract or a spiritual contract that said, you're assured this. You get to, you know, like this will continue or you're allowed to have this like, you know,

we're seeing that as societies are breaking down in unions of radio. None of this is promised. And you can get angry about that or you can just be a Taoist about it and sort of just go with the flow of energy of reality. And there's a beautiful line that I quote to myself all the time that's from the Bhagavagata Gita, which is this ancient Indian Hindu spiritual text. And there's a line in there where one of the gods says to one of the heroes, you are entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor.

And that is something that is hard to land on modern years because we have a lot of sense of entitlement. And it's like, well, I worked really hard. I should. I worked really hard. I therefore should. That's the calculus of capitalism. You know, like, I worked hard and therefore I should have this.

And the actual reality of life on earth is. nobody told you that that's true. I mean, some people told you that who don't know how the world works. The way the world actually works is like it shrugs. It's like the world, you know, the universe is a little bit indifferent. You know, the universe is a little bit like, maybe you'll have it, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have it for a while. Maybe you won't.

You know, like I love that about like the sort of classical Indian theology and ideas of God is like, God is much less a sort of reasonable reigning judge than a kind of baddy old lady who lives on the top of a hill and has money and gives it to some people who don't deserve it and gives it to other people who do, you know, and makes promises and doesn't keep them and is a little bit senile. And it's like, that's the actual reality of life, you know. And so I'm not entitled. I'm not entitled. I've had books canceled. You know, like I had A. I had A. book canceled two years ago right before it was published, you know, and it was like, wow, I could freak out about this and be like, I worked for four years on this. This is a tragedy for me

that this book isn't being published. Or I can live in accordance with reality and be like, well, that's interesting. That is objectively interesting that that happened. That is not what I expected. I think so much of life is just that is not what I expected. That's interesting. And the difference between living a life of anxiety and living a life of creativity. And my friend Martha Beck just recently wrote a book about how the antidote for anxiety, the opposite of anxiety, is not relaxation, it's creativity. It's creativity is the only way out of anxiety. And the only way into creativity is to live from a spirit of, that's interesting,

rather than a spirit of like, what a nightmare. It's also a drama-free life. To live from a place of like, that's interesting. Oh, somebody broke up with me who I thought I was going to marry. That is interesting. Wow, I really wanted kids and I can't have them. That is really interesting. The person I loved the most in the world died who I thought was going to be like my anchor forever.

That's interesting. You know, that is so interesting. What am I going to do now? So on the video game of life, like what is my next move? And the next move, if you want to have a life without a lot of anxiety, is what would be the most interesting thing I could do now? I also love a very equal quote, which is the opposite of anxiety is trust. And I think that also comes into play here, where you can be thrown like the most awful,

terrible circumstances. But if you trust that you are going to make it through, and if you trust that you are capable of finding a root out, or finding your way back to a life that you really love and that you want, you will make it through most of the time. Like self-trust is just such like, I don't know, it's just such an antidote to so much. It's an antidote to imposter syndrome.

It's an antidote to a lot of anxiety. And I really want to link back to what you were saying before of, you know, God, the universe is somebody or lady like living on the top of a hill, just giving out money. Because I see this a lot with people in their 20s where it's like, if I work X amount of hard, I will receive Y amount of reward. And I always think about it in the context of people studying for exams, right? Very common thing that you do during this decade.

Someone could study the exact same amount of hours of you as you have the exact same content and get a completely different grade, could understand it completely differently. And sometimes like somebody could study a lot less than you and get a much better grade. Yeah. Exactly. And it's like, okay. So we all think that it's just hard work. And it was actually something I had to really accept where I was like,

it's okay for a bit of this to be luck. Like it's actually okay. Yeah. And I kept worrying. I'd be like, well, luck isn't, luck isn't promised. So if my life has been given to me by luck, like as soon as the table's turn,

I could not have my life anymore. So I'm going to use hard work as an insurance. And eventually you have to kind of let that go because it makes you feel like every single thing that you do is tied to how much you want it and how much you want it. and how many hours you're willing to put into it, which is not true. It's just simply not true.

It's all based on the devastating wish that life would be fair and sensible. And there's very little evidence that I have seen to support that it is either of those things. But it is, once again, interesting. The baddy old lady who lives on the top of the hill who's half senile and holds all sorts of power and forgets your name, like promises you an inheritance and then forgets your name. Yeah. It's like I already gave it to that person. I'm sorry, give it to the gardener.

Like I thought, you know, like, wait, but I'm your grandchild. Well, are you? You know, like, it's so, and this is why I think that the manifestation theology is a bit dangerous. This idea, you made a sort of joke about vision boards and vision boards can be really sweet. And there is something about that. There is a, it's not that you're helpless. There is a, there's a push and a pull. There's a part that you have control over and there's a part that you don't.

And the way I describe it to eat, pray, It's like a circus, trained circus acrobat riding on two horses at the same time. You know, like one foot on two horses around a ring. And the play that I feel in my own life between my own will and what can only be called destiny or fate is I've only got a foot on one of those horses. You know, and the other one, it looks like it's running right alongside me. But at any moment, anything could happen, you know, like anything could happen that changes the game. And how do we hold our equanimity? And they're both running at full speed, by the way.

You know? And the really good acrobats are the ones who are just like, and they're sparkly, in their sparkly, leotard with a big smile. And a plume of, like, here we are. We're on the ride, you know. So it's, yeah, but there's, there is no promised outcome. The outcome is not promised. You're entitled to the labor, but you're not entitled to the fruit of the labor.

And if, gosh, if there's one thing that could make, you happier than anything else it would be to release any sense of entitlement to anything. Because the most depressed, outraged and anxious that I have been in my life has been when I didn't get what I want. And I had to suffer through some sort of a tantrum about it for however amount of time until I surrendered to, you ain't getting it. Don't matter how much you want it. You cannot make that person love. you. You cannot make that person love you. You cannot change the past. You cannot change people's opinions. You can't. And so I think the reason I'm a lot more serene in my 50s than I was in my 20s

was because in my 20s, I was still pretty sure I could get what I wanted if I tried hard enough and worked hard enough or manipulated enough. And I couldn't. Yeah, that's a lesson. That's a lesson that we all learn eventually. And I always think about it as, have you seen the Harry Potter films? Yes, of course. Do I not have eyes? I know.

Sometimes you've got to ask because there'll be people who are like, what? No. I always think about this scene. It must be in the first movie where they're going to find the philosopher's stone

and they fall into this pit of vines that like choke them and like just tightening. And every time they like struggle against it and they move, it just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. And it must be like, Kermaini or someone realizes like if I just relax, they'll let me go. They'll let me go and I will just

fall straight through. And it is such a hard thing to do because naturally you want a good life and you want to be happy and you want to find love and you want to feel like you are here for a reason. Obviously, like you can't know what that is. So sometimes you do just have to do the opposite of what every single instinct in your body is telling you to do, and that is to just relax. And I think that there is a difference between like survival, like survival instincts and an instinct for living. And I think our living instinct and our life instinct is to relax and is to just have a little bit more fun. But we're confusing that with our survival instincts, which are like, no, run, produce, like hit, scream. Somewhere along the way, like those have gotten crossed. And so now we just feel a lot more

panicked about everything and we think that small things are going to cost us our life, you know, not having a job that we love, not having people like us, like all these things are going to be a lot more costly than they actually are. That's just how I see it. When I relaxed into that, it felt a lot better. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter and on my podcast 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness. fitness and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more,

to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on. the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so...

Then you're finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games.

And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth.

Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose

on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story.

This began a years-long court battle, to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern.

Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Lespian and Michael Nanchini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges.

This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to ask you about a bit of a turning point in your career and in your life. and it was the success of E. Pray Love, Julia Roberts starred you in a movie. That's probably something that only three or four people can say. But what happened afterwards? You know, you wrote this book. It's beautiful. It became incredibly popular. How did you manage or deal with the expectations that you maybe experienced for your next book or for after that, the initial fame it may be passed? Oh, what a great question.

So do you know, I mean, I'm talking like I know anything about mathematics, but do you know the principle of absolute value? I'm not, no. I'm not even going to claim to pretend to. I'm going to just throw it out there and explain it, but like imagine that you're looking at a number line and there's a zero in the middle. And then the positive numbers go out in one direction, positive one through 10. And then the negative numbers go out in the other direction, negative one through 10, right? So pick a number three, right? So there's a positive number three and there's a negative number three, right, on that line.

But they share the same absolute value. So the absolute value means the distance from zero. So there's a zero in our emotional life, which I would describe as just sort of like our stability, constancy, a sense of belonging, a sense of like balance, that's zero, that's point zero, right? And then there are these horrible things that happen on the negative side of the scale. And these wonderful things that happen on the positive side of the scale. Here's where things can get really confusing sometimes. It makes sense that when a horrible thing happens, a divorce or an illness or a death or a terrible breakup or a massive disappointment or a natural disaster, it makes sense that you would be really shook by it. But

it doesn't make sense that you would be equally shook when a wonderful thing happens because we're trained to think that the wonderful things are great. But to your nervous system, there's an absolute value of distance from zero. If zero is what I'm used to, what I'm accustomed to, and what I am normal to, and a really big swing in the positive direction, a number 10. So eat pray loves a number 10 on that it's like you just wrote i heard the other day that it's like the second best selling memoir of all time you know it's like yeah so famous like yeah julia roberts you're a millionaire now julia roberts is playing you in a movie you're famous you never have to get a job again you know like yeah all this stuff has happened this is a 10 this is a plus 10

the absolute value is it's 10 steps from zero which has the same impact on my nervous system as if there was an earthquake or a death in the family because it is taken me so far away from what I thought was normal right so it's really important to understand and to expect in life that really good news things can also shake you to the core because it's a long long way away from normal. So what happened was I had to get back to neutral. I had to get back to zero. And the only way that I could do that was that I took a year off, almost a year off from doing anything in public. And I started a garden. I literally had to get back, I had to get on my knees in the ground because I felt so ungrounded. People were telling me all sorts of things about who I

was and what I was and what my cultural importance was. And so I just had to get down to the level of the earth. And I, I gardened for a year. I didn't do any speaking events. I didn't teach. I didn't write anything. And I grew vegetables. That's how I got over it. And after a year in the garden, I remember it was like wintertime and I was raking up the leaves and composting things, you know, calloused hands and like just dirty clothes. lows is what did it. And I was, and then I heard in my head the first line to the next book. It was like, it's like the leaves were falling and like a leaf fell into my mind and it was the first line to the next book. And I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to write again. So, so you have

to, whether you've had a hugely positive, massively fantastic big new crazy thing happen in your life or a hugely negative, massively horrible, big new crazy thing in your life, you've got to learn how to ground. And it's very hard to do in this day and age, especially with the constant distractions of everything that's on your phone. But you've got to kind of get like low to the earth and like go to the beach and go in the ocean. Like it's, you have to get kind of animal. You know, it's like I've got to get with elemental back down to the waters like fire and water and earth because and you have to remember the sort of element of yourself rather than all the kind of crazy information that people are telling you about you. I remember when the psychology of your 20s was becoming really,

really popular and it was going viral and it was just thousands of people listening to it all the time. I remember never being more miserable and like crying constantly. I would call my partner Tom and I would call my mom and my dad and just be like, this is going to get taken away from me. How do I adjust to this? And I remember exactly the moment when I was like, I'm going to be okay. And I went back to where I grew up, which is Corrumban in Queensland. It's paradise on earth. And I went on this hike and I found a mango tree that had dropped all these. There you go. Exactly. And it's so funny you were saying that because I literally remember picking up a mango and like I didn't have a knife or fork. And I said,

like ripped it open with my hands and like was eating it and I was like oh my god I'll always have this like I can come and find this mango tree if anything terrible happens and um it felt it's like you're of the earth yeah exactly you belong what is Mary Oliver has a poem um your you're part in the belonging of things yes you know great great success and great failure can lose your sense of belonging but the but if you get close to nature you'll remember that you belong here. I love that story. It was amazing. I still remember the taste of that mango. Like, it's very vivid. And I went back actually recently in the mango tree wasn't there. So I guess it just appeared when I needed it. It's actually something you may not know is that

to celebrity name drop in here, Taylor Swift actually referred one of your TED talks. Do you, do you know this? I did hear that. You do. You do know this. Okay. And I feel like what was so interesting was she was saying referencing you and her creative process and being like the drive to keep creating even when people hate what I've done even when I've failed even when I've you know not had the success that I wanted I just have to create and I always like that analogy as well like not to not to not that anyone's theory about how they should live their life requires proof but you know seeing that her creative processes continue to evolve and allowed her great success I feel like she's kind of something and that means, you know, that came from you. So I think when it comes to like imposter

syndrome and feeling like we're going to fail because we've had some success or feeling like we need to now do things for other people. True creatives really understand that, again, it's not just a job, it's not a profession, it's a calling. And whether you have zero readers, zero listeners, zero viewers or a million, hopefully like what you're creating will be the same. But within that journey, how have you dealt with failure? I know you talked about you had a book canceled. I don't even know what that means, to be completely honest. Neither did I until it happened. I wrote a book that was set in Russia and a novel that was set in Russia. And when I announced it, there was an enormous outcry from Ukrainians saying, like,

you know, how could you be doing this right now and pulling the world's attention to Russia when we're being killed and murdered. And actually, it made a lot of sense to me when I heard. So when I say that it was canceled, that's a dramatic way to say, I like drama. I'm an artist, but it's a dramatic way to say, I mean, it was quite dramatic because it was like trending on Twitter and, you know, they. Yeah, when thousands of people hate you. Thousands of people are hating me and telling me that I work for Putin and that I'm awful and going on good reads and putting one-star reviews for a book that. wasn't even published yet.

So there were thousands of one-star reviews saying, like, this is the worst book in the world. We hate this book. You know, I mean, it was, you know, it was a dramatic moment. But I grounded myself. I have practices that I do and spiritual practices that I've learned over the years to ground myself so that I could actually listen to what they were saying rather than feeling that I was being persecuted. And when I listened to what they were saying, it made a lot of sense to me. And I was like, you know what?

I get it. I'm going to postpone this book. So it just, we just decided not to publish it. Someday maybe it'll be published, but it became very simple. Once you're grounded, the decisions become very simple. When you're in anxiety or fight, flight, or trauma, you don't have access to your reasonable mind. And everything feels like it's on fire. So that's why it's so important to learn how to ground. But I was going to say one other thing about the creativity. I think part of the thing is that I know how creativity works through my nervous system and through my mind. mind. And I know that my fear center is the oldest part of my conscious mind. So before we had anything else when we were evolving into these humanoid forms, we were given this incredible capacity for fear

and alarm. My friend Martha calls it 15 puppies and a snake. So or 15 puppies and a cobra, which means if you're in a room and there's 15 puppies and a cobra, your attention is going to be on the cobra. You know, like if it isn't, you're not going to live long. If you're the kind of person who's like, oh, there's about the puppies, you know, like you, your mind will be, and until that cobra is taken care of, you will not see those puppies, you know, like that's reality of survival. That's the survival gene that you were talking about. We all have that.

We're only here because our ancestors paid attention to the cobras, right? So this is deeply embedded in my brain that I'm looking for things all the time that are going to kill me. I'm looking for things that are going to go wrong. It's wired in. My creative mind only came in online about 100,000 years ago, our shared creative mind, but based on what anthropologists and scientists believe. So it's new. The other one is billions of years old. The fear center is billions of years old.

It's just been evolving and evolving and evolving. Even tadpoles have it, you know? So whenever I create something, the creative impulse comes and says, I want to make something that's new. my fear center its number one job is to never let me do anything new because it has to assume for my survival that anything new has the potential to kill me so my fear only wants me to do what it does every what i do every day because my fear is like it's safe if you do this i mean no one has died yet from me doing this so you're so when i introduce into my mind i'm going to do this new thing my fear freaks out. And it's like, you cannot do that. That will kill us. We don't know. My fear is not

allowed. My fear's job is to not let me do anything where it doesn't know what the outcome is. And creativity is nothing but doing things where you don't know what the outcome is. That's all it is. And that never changes. I mean, I've written 10 books now and I still don't know what the outcome is going to be when I start writing a book. And I still have my fear saying, you can't do it. I've got to shut it down. You're going to die. And so the fact that I know that that's what's happening from an evolutionary standpoint makes it easier for me to be like, oh, this is a natural process that my fear is saying these things. But my more evolved, more recent part of my brain, the Liz 4.0 actually would really like to try to do this thing. And I need to tell my fear

that it's unlikely. No one has yet died from my books. So it's unlikely that somebody will die. Yeah, no. Maybe a severe paper cut, but. Yeah, that's about it. I think we're all right. Maybe it fell on someone's head off a bookshelf, but I think that's about the worst damage that it's done. Yeah. I want to talk about now that we're on the theme of writing books, you literally like three days ago announced all the way to the river. And I watched the video that you put out explaining it. Semi cried about it, not to like make myself seem like too much of a fan.

But can you explain the premise of this book for? people who may not know what went into making it. Oh, so this is a memoir, and it's about my relationship with my best friend in the entire world ever, whose name was Raya Elias, and we were friends for, gosh, we're friends for 16 years, 15 or 16 years. And then we very gradually, over the course of that friendship, we fell in love with each other. And I was married to somebody who I loved very much. She was married to a man. She was gay.

I wasn't or whatever. I don't even know what that means. I don't even care. And she was then diagnosed with terminal cancer. And at the time of her diagnosis, I was no longer able to, knowing that she had six months to live, I was no longer able to continue just pretending that this was my best friend. and I needed to find my voice to her and to my now ex-husband that I need to go meet with this person in a different way.

And she started to call her death the river and she said, I want you to walk with me all the way to the river. And I did. And that may sound to people who are listening to it who don't know the story like a very romantic story. And there were aspects of it that were very romantic. it was also an insane journey. She was a drug addict in recovery who went back into active drug addiction before her death in a way that just ripped the rug, floor, and ground out from under both of us. I fell into a state of totally toxic codependency and love addiction with her.

It was a hell of a time and it was a hell of a story and it's taken me seven years to write it because it took me this long to heal from it and to find my grounding again after that and to even understand what had happened. And in many ways, it's a book about how lost we can get from ourselves. Raya got very lost from her grounded center during that time. I got very lost from my grounded center during that time. And it's a book about recovery and resilience and finding your way back to your center after having been through a time of. such drama and drama. When you were writing it, did it feel almost like cathartic?

Like, do you feel like you wrote it more for yourself than for an audience? Or is there something you're kind of hoping that people are going to get out of it? I always feel, I mean, I write things in order to understand my life. And I write my way into understanding. So it was it was absolutely cathartic. That said, it's the book I didn't want to write. You know, interesting are parts of that story that I was like, I just still want that to not have happened.

that way. Like I still want, and I know we all have this in our lives, like chapters of our life where it's like, listen, I've reconciled with it and I've moved on, but like don't think I still don't wish it went a different way, you know, that I had gotten a different outcome or that it had gone a different way. But it is a lot of the books about surrender as well and surrendering into reality. So yeah, I wrote it for myself, but I also, I think that it's part of it. of my destiny to be a person who has things happen to her, they are really hard and then interprets and translates those things and puts them out in public to say like, here, has this ever happened to you? If so, here's some thoughts I have on this. You know, here's some

things I've learned from this. And I think that's part of what I'm, I think that's part of what I'm meant to do. So even as I was writing the book and exposing these absolutely horrific aspects of her and me, or it's like, this is exactly the stuff I don't want people to know about me. This is exactly like, this is counter to image management is to write a book like this. And my friend Glennon Doyle, the writer Glenn and Doyle read it when it was a manuscript and said, this is the most, what did she say, the most self-accountable thing I've ever read. But like this is a masterclass in self-accountability, but that's also what I feel I really want to be a very self-accountable person.

I don't want to, because the opposite of being self-accountable is being a victim. And, you know, that book was a forensic effort for me to try to, is a forensic effort for me, to try to be like, what was my part in this? You know, like how did I, I do feel that it, multiple points in our lives, we will find ourselves saying,

how did I end up here? Like, how did I end up in this? How did I end up in this toxic thing? How did I end up in this dysfunctional relationship? How did I end up in this abuse? How did I end up in this self-abnegation and self-betrayal? Like, how is that me? You know?

And it's very easy to end up in those sorts of fields of confusion. And not so easy to find serenity and clarity again, but it's findable. So I hope that the book helps people. Raya always wanted me to tell the story and said it'll help some people. And so I'm hoping that it well. And when does it come out? That's probably the first thing I should have asked. September 9th of 2025.

So it's coming. Right around the corner. It's going to be an amazing, but maybe very dark and deep Christmas present for someone. I like it. Nice learning. I have been told by those who have read it. A friend just texted me yesterday and I gave him a copy and he said, I've been with your book all day. And he's like, I just keep going back and forth from laughing my head off to crying my eyes out.

And I'm like, well, that feels about right. That's exactly what that time felt like to me. Yeah. Sounds like life. It's going to go. Well, I want to thank you so much now. I want to ask you one final question. This is the question I ask all of my guests.

And I want to see what your answer is going to be. So what is your biggest piece of advice for people in their 20s or the thing you wish you knew? when you were in your 20s. I know it is a big one. I'm sorry. Okay, for me, I'll give two because they're separate. My biggest piece of advice is, again, I'm going back to the Bhagavagita. It is such a, I mean, wisdom texts, ancient wisdom texts are so handy because they are the distillation of millennia of human experience and wisdom.

So it's not an accident that I keep reaching for this 7,000-year-old text and quoting from it. But one of the lines in there is, it is better to live your own life imperfectly than to live a perfect imitation of somebody else's life. And that sounds like it could be a meme on Instagram right now. But that is deep, deep wisdom. It is better to live your own life imperfectly than to live a perfect imitation of somebody else. else's life. I did a pretty good imitation in my 20s of a lot of lives that I had seen modeled for myself and it almost killed me. And for me personally, it would have, what I wish I had known is to avoid romantic ammashment at such a young age. Even though it was the thing I wanted more than

anything and longed for more than anything and hunted more than anything, it actually took me the farthest away from myself, especially as a woman. It made me be in a constant state of response, especially to men, where from the minute I woke up in the morning until I always lived with somebody, from the minute I woke up in the morning until the minute I went to bed at night, I was aware of him, I was responding to him, I was shape-shifting around him, I was trying to deliver, I was trying to deliver some version of myself that would be pleasing. And it was a part-time job. I mean, maybe a full-time job in order to get from him, whoever the hymn was, fill in the blank hymn, in order to get from him, love, validation, acceptance, and affection,

I turned myself into all sorts of people. And I gave all this time energy that I wish I could have every single minute of that time back. Every single minute of time that I spent trying to get somebody to love me the way I wanted them to love me, I would like every single single minute of that time back. And do you know what I would do at that time? Nothing. I would just sit around looking at things, like reading books, walking around, eating mangoes off the tree, smelling pine cones, jumping in water. I would do nothing of any value if I had every minute of that time left. But the amends that I'm making to myself is that for the next half of my life, I'm keeping it all. I'm keeping all that time for myself and to do nothing with.

I think that's an amazing philosophy, an amazing philosophy to have. Be center romantic partners in your 20s. Honestly, it's a great tip. So I want to just thank you one more time for coming on the podcast and for sharing all of your wisdom. I honestly feel like I've just done an hour of therapy, free therapy. So thank you for me too. It's a gift. Yeah, it was so beautiful. ways. Yeah, it was so nice. And I hope it's not patronizing for me to say this to you, like sister to women to woman.

I am so fucking proud of you. Oh, my goodness. Stop. Wow. I am proud of you for creating what you created out of your own imagination and out of your own creativity. And I will tell you something, what you have and what you are, nobody can take away. nobody can take away what you have and what you are you did this and i am so so proud of you for it oh my goodness

thank you so much that genuinely probably made my year what a what a highlight i appreciate it so much and uh you also have um sorry i just need to gain my words back um you have you're in australia at the moment for some amazing live shows and a workshop in sydney i believe yeah i'll make sure i leave tickets for that, but what cities are you visiting while you're down under? I'm going to Sydney, Melbourne, sorry, Sydney, Malmbs, Brizzy. Oh, she's a local. Oh my goodness. And Hobart, which is the one that I demanded to go to. I'm so sorry, Perth, don't at me. I really, really, really wanted to come to Perth, but they didn't have a venue available that would have been the right size for what we needed, so I wasn't

will do it. But I have a fascination with Tasmania and I also make it a point whenever I do these tours to try to go to places people don't normally go. And so if you're in Tassie, come because it's going to be great. And Adelaide as well. So, and Adelaide. And if anybody's listening to this in New Zealand, I'm going to Auckland as well. Not to say that I'm lumping you together with Australia, New Zealand. I fully recognize your your absolute beautiful. autonomy and separateness, but while I'm in the neighborhood, I'm also going to Auckland. So please come. And if you've never, I feel like I'm on the tourism board for Tasmania right now, but if you've never been to Tasmania, like I came there 10 years ago and I'm obsessed with it.

And I'm going back to the Museum of Sex and Death because it's the most incredible place like I've ever been to. I feel like it's the most wild thing I've ever seen a human create is that entire, like the whole city is beautiful. So come. There's still tickets left there. There's still tickets left in Adelaide. I think there's a few tickets left in Brissy. But come and join us. It's going to be more like this. Yeah, which we love. Tidbit. I was literally in Hobart like three days ago because my best friend is there. Yeah. And I got her a ticket to your show. So hopefully she loves it. It's honestly magical. I saw a white. I saw an albinos stag. I picked like fresh blackberries off of the trees. Like just like. Like, just like. only a kilometer out of the city. It's beautiful. Go to preachers, the bar. It's the best.

Okay. And thank you, sweetheart, for sharing me with your audience. And everybody out there, listen, it's all going to be all right. Just relax just relax as you're being tormented and tossed about in wild seas. I feel like that summarizes it. Just surrender. So surrender was the theme of this episode. And I want to thank everyone for listening.

If you've made it this far, what's our emoji for the day? Let's choose the earth. You've made it to this part of the show. Drop an earth emoji in the comments so that we can talk and chat about your thoughts, feelings. Maybe your questions, your qualms about this episode. Make sure that you're following along on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast. And until next time, stay safe, be kind. Be gentle to yourself.

And we will talk very, very soon. Hey, it was good, y'all. You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor?

It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?

I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian. Michael Ranjini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is love trapped.

Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura, Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to a love trapped podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%.

I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, fulfilled healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO% on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target.

He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.