The Psychology of your 20s - 282. Can we change our personality?

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

It feels like the personality we have is the one we're stuck with, regardless of how much we wish we were different...but is that really the case? In today's episode we are joined by writer and author Olga Khazan who ran a year long experiment to see how much she could change her personality to be more outgoing, less anxious and hopefully, happier. We discuss:  The root of all personalities What does science say is the best kind of personality When does personality become stable  Is it possible to change?  How could we change our personality?  The results of her experiment then & now + much more Listen now!  Olga's book here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Me-But-Better/Olga-Khazan/9781668012543    PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/general-clean Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast For business: [e-mail]    The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. Today, let's talk about destiny or something that feels strangely attached to it. Let's talk about personality, whether it's fixed or it can be changed, how it shapes our future, our beliefs, maybe even how happy we are. Personality is like a little bit of a black box. Like we know it's shaped by nature and nurture. We know that genetics are involved. How we were raised is kind of involved. But I think as we get older, we become more aware of the parts of ourselves that

are holding us back and that, you know, we really would wish for something different. Well, today I have the honor of interviewing someone who has investigated that very possibility. What if we could be ourselves but better by rewiring our personality. I want to welcome on author and journalist Oga Hazan. Thank you for joining us. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I'm very, very excited for this episode and this topic in general. But before we kind of jump into it, but can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience and your work? Sure. My name's Olga Hazan, and I'm a staff writer at The Atlantic Magazine,

and I'm also an author of books. This is my second book, and it is actually kind of stems from a cover story I did for The Atlantic a few years ago. So that's my backstory. And you're not going to give us any spoilers. I feel like the cover story, like you go into it kind of in the book, right? Yeah, yeah, I can, yeah, I can, I can, I can give you a spoiler. So the cover story, I kind of experimented very lightly with changing my personality, but then I kind of realized that I needed

to do more and that it, you know, kind of letting up on the experiment, I backtracked. I noticed that I was sort of falling back into old patterns. So the book is really an overview of the five traits of personality, my personal attempts to change on three of them. And because the other two, I actually don't need to change. They're fine. They're very high in me as it is. But I do interview other people who increased on those traits through various methods. We're going to get to that because I feel like it's such an interesting premise.

But I do also want to talk about how you became a journalist, how you became a writer. I think as much as I love interviewing people about the very, you know, amazing niche things that they're doing and they're like, whether it's psychology or neuroscience or anything like that, you know, this podcast is for people in their 20s and a lot of people probably aspire to do what you do. Can you kind of talk us through how you got from maybe graduating high school to where you are now? Sure. Yeah. Wow, that's a long time ago. Yeah. Just because I... of you your entire life.

Please and thank you. Graduated from high school like 20 years ago. Then I went to college, did not major in journalism, but really found myself drawn to journalism. I did an internship in journalism. And then I went to graduate school after I graduated from college, which is not like a necessary step for anyone listening at home, but it is something that I did. then I got a job at the Washington Post out of graduate school and I worked there for a brief time. And then I moved to the Atlantic in 2013.

And I've worked at the Atlantic ever since. And I've done a couple different jobs there, but I've mostly been a writer covering like health and human behavior. Well, that's the perfect topic for this. Do you remember like what your first big piece of writing was, like your first article where you were like, oh my gosh like I'm a journalist yeah um that probably was so when I did my internship in college I wrote one story um during that internship it was complex why I only wrote one but it that that was like the amount that I was allowed to write um and it was about online gaming addiction um and uh I remember when it came out I felt so just accomplished like I was like a year

Yes, like my life is all coming together. And of course, like, I wouldn't be a full-time writer for, I think, eight years after that. But it was, it was like very good motivation to keep going. You know, I love stories like that where it's like, okay, just because your dream isn't happening right now doesn't mean that it's not going to come true eventually. Like, as you said, you had this like, what sounds like this big accomplished moment and, you know, it really didn't come full circle until, what did you say, like 10 years ago, almost maybe 12? years ago, which we love hearing those stories on the show. Let's talk about this book. The premise of this book was basically that cover story and this idea that you wanted to change your personality.

Why did you feel like it was necessary? Like, why did you feel like you had to do that? Yeah. So your personality, you know, a lot of people think it's sort of like what you like or dislike or sort of the kinds of things you say or whatever. But it's really a lot about your reactions to situations and kind of like something comes across your way and are you like, yes, let's do it. Are you like, oh, I don't know about that? Or, you know, it's kind of like how you interact with the world. And I noticed that a lot of how I was interacting with the world was not helping me, really.

So the intro to the book kind of gives a good overview of this. But I had this day, this is before I had a kid. And it was like, now having had a kid, I'm like, wow, this was actually like a fantastic day. I should have just appreciated it. But, you know, it was like I got stuck in traffic. I got a bad haircut. I got photos taken that looked really bad. I had a stressful thing where I had to like pick my mom up at the airport, but I had to go grocery shopping before.

But there was like a delay at the grocery store. And then I was going to be late to pick up my mom. And it was like this whole thing. And I just had a meltdown. I got back to my Airbnb. that I was staying in and I drank wine and like cried to my boyfriend at the time and was just like, I hate everything. And then I kind of got to thinking and I was like, even like me saying that now to you, I'm like, wow, that is so whiny and like unappreciative of the fact that like

that day, you know, I was able to buy groceries. I was in Miami. Like I got myself to Miami. me. I, you know, was getting a haircut, like spa day for me. You know, I got professional photos taken. Like, you know, and it was sort of like I had this realization that like, wow, I can take anything good and positive and maybe, or maybe even just like mediocre, right? Like a lot of things that happen in life are kind of like, oh, that was whatever. You know, and I have a tendency to dwell on the negatives and to like emphasize the negatives and create these stories out of the negatives that were not serving me. And it was making me like not enjoy my life like to the extent that I, that it could have

and should have been enjoyed. And so that's kind of the long and the short of it, why I decided to change. That's actually really interesting. And can I be honest? Maybe I'm like, maybe I need to change my personality because I had a day like that like literally yesterday. I like, I'm sorry. I know I literally even got my hair cut and like I didn't like my hair cut and like my mom was literally in town yesterday as well. And that's like honestly crazy. Um, so like you're, I'm like hearing that story and like no, like you, you just feel

your emotions, girl. There's a time and a place to feel your emotions. But you can feel your emotions and also like look at the bright side. Yeah, no. It's just really funny. And I think like what you're really pointing at is like this wasn't like a one off. situation. Like you had seen this pattern of not being able to enjoy your life. And what I'm hearing is that you were like, okay, well, something needs to change in me. Why did you hone in on personality and like specific building blocks of personality rather than something else? Why didn't you like speak spiritual enlightenment? Why didn't you like say to yourself, oh, I need to change something about my lifestyle? Like did you feel, yeah, what was like the focus on changing?

what I'm guessing is like neuroticism, right, like as a building block. Yeah. So neuroticism was one of the things I wanted to change. So neuroticism is one of the five traits and it's just anxiety and depression, right? And I had a lot of that. I had a lot of anxiety and a lot of kind of negativity, as I mentioned. But there are other elements of personality and they sort of encompass those other things that you mentioned.

So actually, as far as like improving my neuroticism, a big thing I actually looked to was Buddhism and a lot of Buddhist teachings because a lot of neuroticism, it's not about like reducing the number of things that happen to you that are bad. It's, I mean, although like if you're like addicted to drugs and like that's why bad things keep happening to you, like that's something to look to. But let's say you're like a functional person who's, you know, living like a basically normal life, it's going to be a lot easier to change your reactions to the things that happen to you than it is to like make every single thing in the world go your way.

So that's why I kind of like looked inward. And personality does encompass a lot of those things that you mentioned. So like spirituality, Buddhism has a lot to say about depression and anxiety. And you know, as far as like lifestyle, that was really more extroversion. Like I wanted to become more extroverted. And that was a big part. Lifestyle was a big part of that is sort of how often do you go out to socialize? And do you make an effort to do that?

You know, not just like do you sit by the phone and wait for people to contact you? But do you make connections? Do you try to get out there? So those are things that I did. But I called it personality change because personality includes all that. Okay. That makes a lot more sense. So in this like endeavor to change your personality, did you figure out like who the happiest

kinds of people were? Like was there an assumption that like the happiest kinds of people are extroverted and are lower neuroticism and like high and openness to experiences? Like thinking about like the big five, what did you come across in your research? Yeah. So people are not going to be thrilled to hear this, but the happiest people are like, high in all the traits except for neuroticism. So there's five traits. I will just briefly say what they are. So openness to experience, happy people are high in that because that's like, yeah,

spiritual but not religious, like creative, imaginative, conscientiousness, which is like getting stuff done. So it's like being places on time and being like healthy and exercising, happy people tend to be high in that. Extroversion, extroverts are happier. That's like a really consistent finding in psychology. Unfortunately, I was, I'm an introvert and I was not thrilled to hear that. Agreeableness. Agreeable people are happier. They're always like making friends and going to baby showers and what have you. And then neuroticism is the one that's correlated with unhappiness. And so the opposite of it is emotional stability. That's what it's called. And people who are high in

are happier. Kind of rough. Not going to laugh. Yeah, I know. I know. I'm an introvert. And I have anxiety. I think like maybe caveat, like I'll put the caveat in.

Like sometimes I think that it's like are introverts less happy or the scales by which we measure happiness just obviously overly influenced by extroverts, right? Because who's going to participate in those early studies that like created indicators for happiness. It's going to be the people who have a lot of friends who are going to invite them to participate and who are like, yeah, I'll do this. I'll go out. Like, I'll get paid to, like, sit in a room with a stranger for an hour. Like, so sometimes I think that. And I also do think that, like, what we'll get to is, even if you don't think you can change your personality, you can most certainly manage it. And you can manage, like, medications and you can manage lifestyle

factors and routine and therapists. So don't see this as like a curse. upon your name if you kind of associate with some of those other traits. But this kind of leads me to my next question. At what age do you think our personality really starts to stick? At what age do you think we really feel like stuck in who we are? Yeah. So I would say there's not an age at which we start to stick in who we are. So that used to be the thinking this like influential psychologist named William James

had this infamous sort of quote that like the character, is set like plaster by the age of 30, which is relevant for your podcast for people in their 20s. So, I mean, even he said like in your 20s, you can still change. But kind of more recent research has found that that's not really true, that people kind of continue to change throughout their lives, even naturally, even if you don't really do anything to try to change, your personality is going to kind of shift from decade to decade. You're going to be a different person. when you have kids and like a job than you were in college, then you were in high school, you know, and that is like freeing.

And it's kind of scary, but it's also kind of nice that like you're not going to be like if you're not crazy about something, you know, about yourself or about your life, you're not stuck with it forever. That is very, very freeing. And even like as we get into like older age as well, something that I, like a statistic that I really like to talk about is how by the time people reach like 60 and 70, symptoms of mental illness really decline, which I don't know. I've always thought about that and been like, oh, that sounds great. Like, you can't wait for that. Yeah, can't wait for that. Like, maybe I'll have 10 years of just

like bliss. But it is like a really beautiful thing that you mentioned this. I hear this a lot, like another myth about personality change slash personality stuckness is by the time you reach 25, like your frontal lobe is fully developed. And I think we kind of think like, okay, so that's it. Like, this is who I'm always going to be. What evidence did you find, like, on the contrary? Before I, like, really dive into your personal experiment. Yeah. So, um, so there's two kind of, um, branches of evidence to the contrary. Um, so first, uh, your frontal lobe being fully formed doesn't really mean anything about your personality because we don't have like a lobe in our brain that is where the personality lives. So like even if they study like brain changes or,

or, you know, like those like fMRI studies where it's like brains lighting up, those don't necessarily correlate perfectly with personality necessarily. So there's kind of two elements to this. The first is that when researchers have followed people, you know, and given them personality tests over and over across the years, they do find that people change. You know, they tend to change in certain ways over time. So like you mentioned, that people become kind of mentally healthier in old age. Neuroticism does go down naturally across your life. So if you feel like you're very anxious and depressed, usually in older age, people become less so. So that's a sort of just naturally happens. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to like take any

Lexapro that naturally happens for most people. The other element of this is that if you actually try to change, it can happen even faster. So there's been studies that show that people who get therapy, for example, become less neurotic. And in a short period of time, they become a lot less neurotic than you would expect them to having just like naturally, you know, decline in neuroticism. And the same with some of the studies that I cover in my book. Researchers who have given people these like challenges, you know, people will say, I'd really like to become more extroverted. I'd like to make more friends. And they're like, okay, every day for or whatever, every week for a month, reach out to someone new and have coffee with them or have, you know,

lunch with them or whatever. And they do maybe like five to ten challenges like that over a period of time. They actually find that they do grow in extroversion based on personality tests that they take at the beginning and the end. So not only do you naturally change, you can also change through effort. So are things like introversion? Like I always thought that they were very innate. Like it's a genetic, oh my, I don't know, like genetic predisposition, it's temperament, but you're saying that actually know it's more of a nurture factor. Well, it's like environment. Sorry.

Yeah. So it's both. So genetics is responsible for about 40 to 60% of our personality. And even then, it's not like direct. Like if you think about either of your parents, you're probably not exactly like either of them, right? You're probably like, you have like elements of them, but you're not like they're twin. Like you kind of, most people are, I mean, usually people are relieved to hear this.

like not exactly like either, either parent, right? So you get a little bit, like you get some ingredients. So I have like a natural proclivity toward anxiety because both my parents are very anxious, right? But at the same time, there's other, there's like this, you know, 40 to 60 other percent of personality that we don't really know where specifically it comes from. It's not necessarily like the way your parents raised you. It's like, it's like kind of that, but it's also like your friends. It's like, did you go to college? What kind of job do you have? You know, do you make an effort to like read self-help books? It's kind of like the stuff that you do and absorb into yourself that creates that other part of personality. So that's the kind of element that I'm

talking about is that like, yeah, if you have two parents who are totally bookish and hate talking to people, you're going to naturally be kind of like, I feel really introverted. But if, but if you, you know, go into a job in sales and you talk to people, you know, all day and everyone around you is extroverted and you get like high fives and promotions for being extroverted. Like you're going to be a little bit more extroverted than you naturally would be, if that makes sense. So it's kind of like at some point reinforcement does kind of work. Like yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. See, I find this really interesting because like my parents are so totally opposite each other. like they're the perfect definition of like opposites attract like my dad is like a stay-at-home dad

and like we call him like a charity wife like he runs like a non-for-profit like giving backs to refugee children in Australia and like then my mom is like a like badass like CEO and like she has like she is Oger like she is the lowest person like the lowest neurotic neuroticism levels I have ever seen in an individual like I have never seen that woman break a sweat she is not anxious at all like nothing phases her and then my dad is like the complete opposite and it's like completely like he's not completely anxious but he's very anxious and very existential and very like in his own head about very deep things and it's really funny like seeing it like me and my sister's always joke that it was like you know one of us got my mom's jeans and my other me and my other sister got my dad's jeans

and it was like damn like if I could switch like I totally need. So it's funny how I can see that. Yeah. Yeah. But then again, it's like me and my sister like, not to like tell her story, but had that had very different approaches to like how we face neuroticism and like and other things as well and like agreeableness and all those things.

And like there definitely has been a difference in like how we've approached it and how we've changed as people. So I'm ranting. Really what I want to get to is what you found in yourself. But we're going to take a tiny. break and we'll be back in just a second. Stay tuned. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter and on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental

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Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We are back with Olga Hazan talking about, can we change our personality? This is kind of the crux of this whole interview. What happened? Firstly, what did you do? And secondly, what did you find? Yeah. So that's like the whole book. So let me just break it down into, let's talk about extraversion first, because I think that is like the easiest to wrap your head around and also has had the clearest results. Okay, cool.

So extraversion, basically the secret to increasing extraversion is to socialize with people. Some of the other traits are more existential and more like mindset oriented and kind of like how you think about things. Extroversion is like very clear cut, go talk to people, like go do activities. So I signed up for a bunch of stuff. I signed up for improv, sailing club, a bunch of meetup groups. Which is like groups of strangers meeting up, literally. I like through a party at my house.

I just went out all the time. I went from basically going out maybe once a week to going out like pretty much every night or like not and not like going out drinking like although there was a lot of drinking um i can imagine like like just being around people um and i found that like almost every time before i went i dreaded it i did not want to go i was like i hate improv i don't even know what I'm doing this stupid like I don't want to go and then almost every time after I would do it I felt better I was like, that was super fun or like that person in the sailing, my sailboat today was really interesting or like, that was cool or like, hey, like I got to get whatever a burger on the way back home. Like there was something that came out of it usually that I was like, huh, that was like a nice break from the day.

That was like a nice way to like liven up the day a little bit. And I think that's kind of like the, when I talk about increasing extroversion or like changing your introversion, you can remain an introvert, but just do like 20% more stuff, like connect with people 20% more. And there's a little bit of a mood boost there. Like researchers who are introverts have studied this concept and have found that like even just connecting with people a little bit. And it doesn't mean that you have to be like the life of the party.

Like I think people assume extroversion means like you're super talkative and like can't shut up and, you know, or you're always telling jokes. You can like go hang out with two close friends and like, you know, listen more than you talk and like knit the whole time. And that's still extroversion. That's, you know, still being around people. So yeah, for that one, my introversion, my extroversion did go up. And I think what I took away from that is that like I do enjoy having fun. I need to sometimes force myself to have fun.

But it's okay to do that. Like it's okay to be like commit, you know, kind of to an exercise class or to something else that doesn't sound super appealing all the time, but ends up being rewarding. This is what I always say. Like people will DM me be like, how do I make new friends or like how do I stop feeling like everything is an effort? And I'm like, pick two things to do a week. and do them in the same place at the same time.

And you will meet other people who are doing the same thing as you. Like whether it is it an exercise class or like an improv class or a life during class or like social sport, there are so many people out there who also want to make friends and who also are like seeking connection. And there's like no shame about it either of being like, okay, I'm trying to train my brain to like this more because you do fall into a habit. Like I'm such an extroverted person and last week I spent the entire day at my house and like the entire week, like indoors working and I had such cabin fever. And I was like, I've just, I'm just so depressed. Like, I just don't know who I am anymore. And then I went and did like, barefoot bowls with my friends. And I was like, wow, like, life is so beautiful. Like,

look at those flowers. It's like, yeah, giving your brain what it needs. Um, so extraversion was the one that you saw an improvement in. What about neuroticism? Yeah. So neuroticism, I also saw an improvement. So neuroticism, I will cut to the chase. I meditated a whole lot. I, and meditation is also something that I did not enjoy. I didn't even enjoy it while I was doing it. And I did not enjoy it after I was done. I was not like, that was really nice. That sounds painful. Thank God, I don't have to do that for another 24 hours. I signed up for a class where we had to meditate for 45 minutes every day, which is so long. It's literally the longest 45 minutes of your life. However, it's, did work. My neuroticism went down and my anxiety went down a little bit, but my depression

went down a ton. It went down a lot like to basically like not being depressed anymore. And why that happened is sort of anyone's guess. If I had to like posit why that occurred, it's that I did a lot of what's called loving kindness meditation, which is where you're just like really nice to yourself for however long. And it's usually, I do it to like a guided, like a tape basically. People don't use tape anymore. Like a recording, like a guided. Yeah, exactly. Like a guided recording. And it's like, you know, like there's like the line that always makes me cry is like there's, you can search the whole universe for someone who is more deserving of love in happiness than you are yourself and not find anyone. And it's like, like, you're like,

oh, yeah. And you're just like, oh, my God. You need to know what this tape is. So it's, it's Sharon Salzberg. And I use the 10% happier app for meditation. Oh, I love that app. Yeah, yeah. I have a podcast. It's up from the Yale. Is it from the Yale person? No. I think you I'm thinking of Judd Brewer, the 10% happier is Dan Harris. Oh, yeah, Dan Harris. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. He does Pocas as well, I think.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, everyone has a Pocos is so embarrassing. But he, yeah, but it actually like really worked. I think like there's something about like repeating that. I don't know. And my meditation teacher also really tried to like hammer home the self compassion. And I think it worked.

Yeah. Wow. See, I get this like meditation. I've never met someone who's been like, I'm really into it all the time. Like, I do feel like you kind of have to drag yourself into it, kicking and screaming. It's like when you have to like get a needle and you're like, I really don't want to do this or like go to the dentist or like go to the doctor and then you feel amazing. Like, oh, wow, that pain's gone. Like that's what meditation sounds like.

And it's just like discipline towards your soul, right? in the same way that you exercise your body, like you're exercising your mind, even if it's like tense and uncomfortable and stressful or whatever in the moment like it feels gives you strength later on. I think what it did is made me less afraid of my negative emotions. So you're sitting there like sometimes for hours and you're just like your mind is like going and going and it's silence, you know? And I think what it does is like for me at least, I don't know if this is like correct, but for me at least, it made me, like, inevitably, like, negative feelings will come up during that, but it was sort of just like, it's okay. Like, nothing bad is really happening right now.

You're literally sitting in a room in your house on a cushion, like, meditating. But you kind of have, you still have your same negative, you know, strong emotions if you're someone who's prone to neuroticism. But it, I don't know, it just lets you like, kind of not be as, thrown off by them or like, because bad things are still, I mean, my meditation teacher would say this all the time, like, things happen that you don't like, which is like very simple, but it's like, oh yeah. And like, you're just, you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your life. And it's all about, you know, do you, you know, your mom, you mentioned is like, so not neurotic. I'm sure bad things happen to her. But she thinks about them in a, like,

somehow more Zen way than the average person. I'd love to know her secret. I would love to as well. It's crazy. And she's had a tough life, like, not to give her story. And I have done an episode with her where she talks about it, but not even the full extent. Like, not an easy life. And sometimes I just look at her and I can see, like, there'll be a time that, like, me or my sister will, like, be panicking about something or being like, don't you just see, like, how terrible this is? And I can literally to see her looking at me being like, no, like trying really hard to have empathy for me and being like, I just can't do it. Like she's incredible and like I, she has obviously like learnt what to say, but she doesn't

like feel it in her bones the way that like my dad would or my sister would. So she honestly needs to do like some kind of life course. Like she's pretty incredible. Okay, I want to ask this question that I think everyone is probably, thinking at this point you did all these amazing exercises how long did this last as well like six months this lasted it a year okay a year and when did that experiment end um i honestly only had a year of book leave so it was just like June of uh 22 to June of 2023 okay cool um so like a year a solid year have you found that you've gone back to your old self

since so in some ways but not in others. Since I did that, I had a baby. And that necessarily like changes a lot about how you're thinking about things, especially in the beginning. But I would say that there's still a lot of things that I carried through into even my life as a, I guess I'm still a new parent technically. So one example is like just reaching out to other moms. So it's a very, um, stressful time when you first have a baby. Like it's just is there's no getting around it. You don't know what you're doing and they're very tiny and they cannot speak to you. And so you're just like, what do you want? So I kind of made a point of reaching out to other moms and like I'm in

a mom's group that's been really supportive. I also just like really, really try to even in day-to-day life, if I meet another mom with kids the same age, I really try to like reach out and at least see if she's open to the possibility of friendship. And sometimes that means that I, and this is not something I would have done previously. I actually do a lot of reaching out repeatedly. So like if someone, let's say I reach out to someone and they're like, yeah, let's have coffee and we have coffee and we both have a good time. And then some time elapses and no one follows up.

I might reach out again, even though it was me the last time, too. And then I might do that like a third time. Like there are some relationships where I'm just always the person who organizes things. And that used to really bother me. Like I was like, that person doesn't want to be friends. Like, I'm going to move on because they're not putting an equal effort into organizing things. And like, I don't want that.

But I kind of just realized through this that like everyone has stuff going on. And like people just don't think about things the same way. They are maybe swamped in other ways. They're maybe like not as comfortable with reaching out. Like I don't know. It just made me like a lot less sensitive, I guess, about these like rules of social interaction that I had previously thought were like iron like laws. So that's been one thing that I've noticed like yesterday we went on a play date to this woman who I like barely knew just because I was like, I'm really bored. and if I have to like sing baby beluga one more time and then I lose my mind.

So it's like, let's go over to you chen's house. And yeah, that's what we did. And it was great, you know, so I don't know. I think it's like a really interesting like how you can, it's quite personal, but like whether you would have been a different kind of mother if you hadn't done this experiment, like the year before you had a baby. And like maybe the answer is no, but maybe it's like, wow, like in this weird way, Like maybe you were preparing your personality for like literally the biggest challenge on planet

Earth. Like I heard this quotes like when you become a parent, you have to use every single skill that you've ever put on a resume. Like, and the ones that you haven't. So it would be interesting to see that. Not that you wouldn't have been a very competent capable mother if you hadn't have done this. But it's, yeah, it's fascinating. Like I would have loved to see a control group.

I know. I'm not very competent or capable as it is. But I will say that I think that doing this experiment helped me decide to have a baby. Oh, okay, cool. Interesting. Like, it helped me get more comfortable with the idea of having a baby. Yeah. Because babies, listen, I don't have one, but they seem like a lot of work.

They are. And they seem like they will put you in like a state. Like, they will bring up all those challenges. So, you know, the other day, this is like so funny, but I didn't realize you can't give babies water. not until six months see guys i don't know if any of you did know that listeners of the podcast but i was like wow if i had a kid right now and and no one had told me that like that would have been a real problem like what are the other things that i don't know about this like grand you end up you end up googling don't worry about that stuff don't don't worry about it right now

it's honestly you will let you'll be googling you will google the internet has answers you google everything no one knows any of those stuff before they start let me go guys and I think it will be a long time. But I've got one final question for you, and I ask every single guest on the podcast, this same question, what advice would you have for listeners in their 20s? What's one thing that you'd wish you'd known earlier?

And it doesn't have to be about what we talked about today. I would say that my advice for people in their 20s is that it's okay to just pursue what you want. You don't have to do something that seems, practical or like what other people want you to do or just because you've always been doing it. You can, it's a time of life when you can completely pick the thing that is your biggest goal, the thing you most want in the world and just go at it with full force. That's what I would, I would recommend doing.

I also love that. I love that piece of advice. I would give that advice myself. Oh, good. Which is brilliant, which is so brilliant. I want to thank you for coming on the podcast. Where can the listeners find you? Actually, I want to give a shout out to an article that you wrote that I think would be really amazing.

It's called The Joy of Underperforming. I think you wrote it like a couple of years ago maybe. But if you guys are looking for further listening, for further reading, I'm sorry, old grown and not even let you give your own recommendations. I will in a second. But I remember reading that article that you wrote and being like, wow, this is incredible for people in their 20s. Oh, thanks. It's great.

But where else can they find you? Yeah. So our website is TheAtlantic.com. And I'm a writer there. I can find me and all my brilliant colleagues there. And you can find my book, which is called Me But Better, wherever books are sold. I'm very excited for it to come out. It comes out today.

If you're listening to this, the day that it launched this is released, you can literally go and pre-order a copy. And I know we had quite a few spoilers, but having already read a few chapters slash pages of this book, like there is. much more there and so much more science and research and just like fascinating tidbits. So thank you so much, Olga, for coming on the show. And as always, if there is someone that you know who would like to listen to this episode who you think would be interested in this topic, feel free to send them a link.

Make sure that you are following along. If you want to read us five stars, that would be very much appreciated. Until next time, thank you for listening and stay kind. Be safe. Be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness,

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In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice in so much, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian, Michael Mancini. My mind was blown.

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