The Psychology of your 20s - 3. The Psychology of the 9-5

Episode Date: July 10, 2021

This week we talk about the transition to full time work in our 20’s and why the 9-5 is not conducive to a well rounded lifestyle. Special guest Erin also joins us to give her expert opinion.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello, and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the very unprofessional podcast, whereby I, your unqualified guide, talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s. what they mean for our psychology. Welcome back to the podcast. I hope your week has been well,

that something amazing has happened, or you got some, you know, cool news. I'm recording this with a little cat on my lap right now, and it's very, very satisfying. But this week, we're going to be delving into the chaos, the absolute fucking nightmare of the nine to five job. This is a topic that my friends and I talk about all the time, and the general conclusion we most often reach

is that the nine to five jobs should be a body, left for dead. It's not a happy way of life for many, I think, and myself included. So today we're going to talk about how a 9 to 5 is not conducive to a healthy, rounded and happy way of living, especially when we're young. And we're going to have a special guest come on later. But first, let's just talk about some of the psychological concepts behind why a 9 to 5 work week is actually just really terrible. So our work can be a big part of our identity and offer some pretty key insights into what's important to us. So it is a really rich area of psychological study and for many people in their 20s the transition to full-time work is

very much like the transition to adulthood. We have those fun years and university in high school or we have a lot of freedom to work the jobs and the hours we want and for many that means that we have our days and well our lives just free to do what we wish with. But that can really come crashing down when we enter the workforce and suddenly we have to adapt our lifestyle to the typical nine to five work week. So I've had this experience recently. I work the typical nine to five every day, every week. And after the first few weeks, the novelty kind of wears off. And it really started to wear me down and it can be pretty, you know, fucking depressing. The thing that really got me was that monotonous procedure of going to the same place every day,

the same commute, doing the same silly little tasks surrounded by the same people. And so much of your day becomes devoted to this bigger entity and what's in the interest of this company or organization, which can be, you know, insanely unfulfilling in many instances. I especially began to notice this when winter struck. You wake up at 7.30, the sun's still down, commute to work, maybe blasting some music so you don't feel like, you know, an absolute robot. And you finish up after five when the sun is set. And where has your day gone? Where is this natural instinct to be active in the sun and outdoors going? With the hours you have left, how do you create fulfillment and an identity in so many short hours in such a short period of time when the sun is down

and you're exhausted. And I've just come to the conclusion it's almost impossible to remain human in the system and to maintain a concept of yourself beyond your function as a worker or as an employee. You know, you just end up having so little time to be yourself and to pursue things that truly do bring you joy. Now, I know this is not the case for anyone. Some people find work and jobs that inspire them in light of fire under their soul and push them towards really, really great things.

And some people find it immensely enjoyable and fulfilling to be devoted to people and projects that are bigger than themselves in a sense of purposefulness and productivity. There's also that element of money, you know, in a world where we have to pay to exist, no wonder we've become so conditioned to a system that asks us to sacrifice, you know, the majority of our daily hours to work

in an office of something we don't particularly love, just to afford, you know, the small pleasures in life, like rent. Like I mentioned, this dilemma between being a free spirit and embracing our youth or sacrificing these young years for full, time employment is one, I'm sure many of my listeners have experience, especially if you are going through that transition right now. It might even be keeping you up at night, I don't know, but even if you don't have this experience, I think we can or recognize this intense societal

pressure to enter into this system in the corporate world and work our lives and days away until we're 65, retired, no longer have the bones or the stamina for the life that we actually wanted for ourselves. And when I started investigating this and the psychology behind the nine to five job in our 20s, it started feeling even more startling and a pretty shitty deal that we've entered voluntarily into. And I have had this feeling recently. Like at what point did I actually choose this life for myself and come to the conclusion it would bring me happiness? Like how much of that pressure was external or intangible, me feeling this idealized equation for a perfect life whereby, you know, you have a good job. That's the foundation and everything else kind of falls around it.

But enough of my rant. Let's just get into the same. psychology behind full-time work. We're going to talk about why a nine to five job is not ideal for making a living, burnout, exhaustion, and the struggle for fulfillment in a modern-day capitalist society. So before we understand the psychological effects of the five-day work week, we have to understand its history. So the truth is, this type of work schedule hasn't always been the standard in Australia or many places in the world. So basically in the 1900s, factory workers, they were known for being forced to work 100 hour weeks or more. But fortunately, after years of activist work and many people fighting the powers that be changed began. And now the 9 to 5

work week has kind of become a standard. And we've certainly been really lucky to have people from the past who've fought for these labour rights and for more free time. However, I think many of us still believe we're not really getting the best deal. So there was a study recently. It was a worldwide study, they had over 3,000 individuals all working those classic eight hours, sometimes more work days. And finding showed that half of these individuals believe they can do their jobs using only five-hour days. This means they think they'd be more productive if they worked fewer hours instead of more, or a four-day work week instead of five, which really kind of poses the argument that working eight-hour days and 40-hour weeks aren't necessarily even effective. And further studies have also shown that

those who work a nine to five job versus those who have flexible work hours, more days off and greater emphasis on ledger, they're more likely to express symptoms of depression, anxiety. They're more likely to laugh less, express less satisfaction with how they use their remaining time, and have fewer fulfilling relationships. According to this recent study that I read about, I think it's only around 30% of the US workforce is engaged in their work. So in other words, they're passionate about their work and they feel strongly committed to their companies. But that leaves 70% of workers who are either not engaged or actively disengaged. So that's 70% of the population who have this work lifestyle who appear quite frankly quite miserable

and not really engaged in what they're doing. And on average, we spend at least 35% of our waking hours at work. And if we're not happy in our job, then it tends to have pretty far-reaching impacts on other aspects of our lives. And it affects things, you know, like our relationships, our sleep, physical health, our ability to relax. So what is it about this system that creates such unhappiness from a psychological perspective?

I think it's important just to break it down from an evolutionary perspective to begin. So humans, they didn't evolve to work a nine to five job. We evolved as hunter-gatherers and our innate instincts, our minds, our bodies, they've evolved to suit this context, not that of an office. our central nervous system and many of the structures and features of our bodies, including our circadian rhythm, fight or fight system, sensory systems and cognitive features such as our attention,

they've all adapted as a result of that evolutionary environment. So, for example, one of the primary jobs we used to have in a hunter-gatherer society was obviously hunting. And this involved brief spurts of intense activity followed by large amounts of leisure time. Similarly, for those who rely primarily on, you know, gathering. food. This would have required kind of more time invested, but involved large amounts of physical activity, rest time in between, and it was the lifestyle that brought about specific and instantaneous rewards, such as finding something edible. So both elements of this lifestyle have three important aspects that are no longer kind of present in the modern day work environment. So firstly,

they have this specific task-based reward. You've got time outdoors, and you're active, and you've got a greater amount of time for leisure as well. So our bodies and minds, they were formed for these activities. They have evolved for environmental stimulation that is varied and involves active and external input from our surroundings. Our genes, they're still expecting that we chase prey or collect roots and seeds, but human innovation, firstly with the creation of agriculture and manufacturing and industry, it's really moved us away from our natural tendencies and rhythms. And this is why the discomfort and boredom of a nine to five job can be so, profound and unsettling for so many of us because we've forced ourselves into a lifestyle that is

fundamentally opposed to what our bodies and minds have evolved to do. What's worse, I think, instead of being outside, people now work in these large buildings. They're awfully tightly packed with people, technology, not much ventilation. And instead of being this tribal creature chasing after your next meal or working alone in small groups, humans have become cells, and pretty unindividualized, in a much larger organism, and it's an organism which has little use for their creativity and their individuality. Basically, our genes haven't had much time to evolve to this lifestyle. So working nine to five on small tasks and projects that rarely have much larger meaning or you feel anyone could replace you, it doesn't really fit the logic that's hardwired into our DNA. Like I kind of

mentioned, we've traded brief spurts of intense focus and activity for long days of continuous monotonous work. We traded skilled, knowledgeable work for this cog-like activity and we exist in concrete boxes with little time outside or in nature or as individuals as well. And it's really interesting because a lot of organisational psychology has shown that employers who are willing to adopt an evolutionary psychology approach to organizing their workplaces, they may drastically improve their workers overall physical and psychological health as well as their general productivity. So what impact does the 9 to 5 have on our mental state and our psychological well-being? So not just being asked to fit into a 9 to 5 lifestyle, but also does the things,

we know, we're not doing the things that we aren't passionate about and we don't really do things that fulfill us cognitively or creatively. And there are some pretty long-term consequences of that. Firstly, we've got fatigue, burnout, depression, existential dread, just to name, just some fun few. And long hours, they do cause fatigue, both physical and mental. And that fatigue affects not just the last few hours of a workday, but all hours of the next day. So an employee who drags back to work after only a few hours of rest at home isn't going to be very productive in the morning. Then the next long day ties them out even more and this kind of punishing cycle begins. They're not going to be able to fulfill their other obligations in life or properly utilize

their leisure time if they're exhausted, mentally under or overstimulated and dealing with the pressures of the workplace and just life in general. And this is particularly pronounced if it's a big life change kind of shifting into that everyday habit, which it is for those in their 20s who are just entering full-time work. And it's probably why we see so much burnout and dissatisfaction in that age group. So burnout, it can happen pretty fast and is projected into all areas of life. It doesn't really help anyone maintaining a nine to five schedule. It doesn't help the individual or the employee who has a group of tired, exhausted, you know, unfulfilled young professionals aspiring for better things

and greater pleasures of life. And it's not just the nine to five long working hours and blurred boundaries between work life and private life. They're pretty common amongst young professionals. And for employees, there may be, you know, temporarily acceptable reasons for working longer days. you expect positive career outcomes in terms of higher salary or intrinsic rewards, but long term this isn't emotionally or psychologically sustainable.

Burnout, it can present as neglected personal care needs, dim detention, withdrawal, due personalisation, which I talked about in my episode with Kate, emptiness, emotional instability and depression. And in the long term, how do you recover from repeated cases of burnout? Or do you just adapt and begin to detach and close off doors to other areas of your life that might be contributing to your schedule? Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is by trying to recover from the exhaustion of monotonous office life, you might actually begin sacrificing other elements such as sleep and passion projects and it's socializing to adapt because so much of your day is being taken up by your work. And you really only leads to you becoming a bit of a shell of yourself.

And I found this quote that I think really captures this pattern of thought. So work time actually is lifetime too. And I don't want to spend my lifetime only at work. And when I read that, it kind of sent me a little bit, made me a bit scared because it really does hit the nail on the head in terms of what we're giving up to work for a larger entity that might not even care about us, might not even know who we are. And a meta-analysis of, I think it's like 200, over 200 records.

of all these academic papers, it had over 800,000 participants, so think about that, close to a million from 13 countries, it demonstrated that longer working hours to have a positive relationship with occupational health problems and higher rates of depression and anxiety, and this is particularly the case for employees who report feeling unfulfilled by their projects and their role.

And your ability to enjoy your life beyond your workplace becomes intrinsically linked to your position is this kind of capitalist cog and it strips you of your health and it strips you of your individuality. So this is the question. If the 9 to 5 causes depression, dread, fatigue, burnout, why do young people feel psychologically pressured

to submit to it? And we have a guest to explain this a little bit and I'll welcome her in just a second. So welcome, Erin. Hello. Hi. How are we all going this fine? Day, night.

Yeah. Lunch time. Evening. Evening, midnight, spicy. Podcast after hours. Podcast after hours. No, that's not the theme of the show. We didn't agree on that.

So Erin is a good friend of mine. It's our one-year friend anniversary. Around this time. Around this time. Definitely. Yeah, I think so. And, you know, an avid listener of the podcast. And also a bit of a nine to five expert.

I don't know. I feel like you were the first one of our friends to really. jump into that kind of way of living? I think I was. Yeah. I think there are a couple of other people, but I started my 9-to-5 job in August last year. So that's almost a year.

And she was still doing uni at the time. And I was still doing uni at the time, which is a terrible idea. If anybody ever says to you, do a university degree and work 9-to-5 Monday to Friday at the same time, don't listen they are not your friend they are not your friend run in the opposite direction as fast as you can how many courses were you doing so i'm ending a cookie by the way um i was doing well this is what i told myself it was fine i was doing two courses at the time and then i had to pick up another two to graduate

in time holy shit um to qualify for my other job which will remain nameless um it's secret secret secret no sorry guys the spud, the cat just stood up to leave us. This is a very casual episode. I was like, I'm bringing on an expert, but really it's a let's get friendly in disguise. It's a let's get friendly. But we're talking about work.

And Aaron providing commentary on the cat she's looking after. So you started in August last year. Yes. Now it's almost August. It's almost been a year. I hate to remind you. I know your concept of time is... My concept of time is short.

Probably due to being in an office. A work slave. A work slave. for a year. There's a lot of, sorry, the jingling again, the cat, please cut the, please cut the jingles out. But nobody wants it. So yeah, I've sat in a room in an office building, breathing in other people's air for a year. How terrifying is that? But it's one of those things that I, I think we've talked about this a lot, but being able to, like, afford the life. that you want at one stage at uni, I would go into the grocery store and I would really

stress about what I was spending money on and now I can go out for drinks with friends. I can treat friends. I can buy. Uber's. Uber's. Yeah, and I guess I try to still be, do it all within reason because I'm not earning the largest amount of money, but it is nice and there like is a certain amount of privilege associated with that that I certainly, I don't want to take for granted. But also, as I've said, I feel like it's good because you're kind of being like, oh, yeah, let's talk about the positives. Because obviously it's not modern day slavery.

Like, we really make it. Like, I know a lot of the early part of this show was me being like, fuck the nine to five. My life's so hard. Like, I get paid, you know, in the top 2% to do nothing. I don't do nothing. I think that I actually do kind of. a lot of work but like you know Aaron's made a very good point

this is something you signed a contract voluntarily like you know what you're getting into you get a forward things you like and it's suddenly the position I'm in at least is a lot better than a casual job that I used to work in that doesn't really care about your health and wellbeing

so the workplace that I'm in at the moment tries to you know make sure that their workers are looked after properly and we have people advocating for our rights and yeah you know we've got like I'm a member of the union which I strongly encourage

you all to be all of the listeners if you're not signed up to your union definitely do that because they're the ones advocating for positive change in your workplace yeah this is a very socialist episode I think and I don't know I also think we were talking because we had dinner before this and we were

talking like I know you can't really get into it because you don't want to get sued to whoever someone from your work listening is. I was about to say someone's name. You know, whose name I was about to say. But yeah. But I also think that sometimes they don't always have your best interest at heart. Like you've had a pretty shitty experience whereby they were pretty standoffish about letting you be flexible.

And it really kind of raised those questions of like, why am I being forced into a nine to five, five day work week when A, I'm not even being productive. B, it's really bad for my health. And C, you guys don't even need me here. Yeah. Yeah. So I come from this standpoint as somebody with a mental illness. And so I worked five days in my job a year ago. Oh, Spud.

Creating noise. It's fun. So as somebody with mental illness, I worked five days in my job a year ago when I was doing uni and then I dropped down to four days to do uni. And my life became eminently. so much easier. And currently in my current job, I'm trying to do that. I'm nearly there. It took a lot of negotiating and a lot of advocating for myself. But I think you can probably attest to this. I already just feel so much better because I think there's a huge concept of everybody always asks you your whole

life, where are you going to work? What are you going to do? What are you going to be when you grow up? Fucking hell. I hate that question. Every time you see, I can't say that because they listen to this. but like especially older people will often ask that. And it's like, why do I need to answer you? I'm 21 years old, 22 years old. Like I don't know. Also, it just puts this whole emphasis on like, what are you going to do for work?

Like work is your whole life. And I remember I told someone like, I'm going to take a year off. And they were like, oh, oh, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'm going to do creative things. I'm like, oh, that would be really good for your resume. And like, what are you going to do afterwards? And I was like, well, I don't know. Like, just let me be, just let me exist.

Yeah. So much, so much worth is put on to your productivity and what your career is going to be. Like, I've been listening to a lot of other podcasts. Of course, this podcast, loyal listener. Yeah, what do you mean you're listening to other fucking podcast? But I've listened to a lot of podcasts that are talking about finances and careers. I, like, there's a beautiful, beautiful Facebook post out here out there in the world, rather. And it basically says, what's your dream?

dream job question mark. I simply do not dream of labor. And that's exactly, that's exactly how I feel. Like I really, until I started having three days on the weekend for myself and four days during the week for work, I had no balance. Like, and if you're not, I'm sure that there's people with really amazing jobs out there that fulfill them and that's what they want to do. But I often sit at my desk and just think, oh my goodness, what I would give to be outside. And I stay out of the window and I go, why am I here? And I think it's like, there's so many skills that I've learned at work and all of that. And I think the more that you have a work life balance, the more going to work is something that isn't terrible. And so for me, like having flexible work arrangements and working part time has

really helped. Do you, but quick question, do you think you can have a flexible work life balance of five days of your life. Oh, absolutely not. I don't know. Bring on the four-day work week, honestly. Whoever came up with this concept of having to work five days a week, two days on the weekend is simply not enough to do. Like I describe it as I have my day that brings me joy.

I have my day of life admin and then I have my day to do whatever I want. Yeah. So like all of the stuff that like the relaxation, the laundry. Oh, I guess that's life admin. But you know what I mean? Like the stuff that's like you have to do like maintenance kind of stuff. Look after your plants.

Look after my plants. Hours of my life going to my plants. But it's fulfilling. It is. It is. And it's something I care about. And I also remember speaking of like you being at your desk being like, I just want to go outside.

Yeah. I remember being terrified when you told me when you're working at your old job in that building. Yeah. You would say to me like, oh, it was bucking down rain today. But I've made a promise to myself to always eat my lunch out. So I went and sat outside. Yeah, and I used to sit in the rain.

Yeah, and I was like, oh my God. Sounds fucking terrible. Like, you are. Yeah. And I mean, the other thing I do, because I really don't enjoy sitting inside all day, is I eat lunch outside. I try to do that as often as I can. And I cycle to them from work. And I was saying recently to my housemate, shout out to Nair, if you're listening.

Hi. Yeah. Um, that my favorite part of work now is not work because work would never be my favorite part of my day. But actually cycling to and from work and doing exercise because that's how I've built in looking after myself when eight hours of the day, which in winter is all of your daylight hours gone. Literally nothing.

We live in Canberra and it's like sunsets at five. Sunsets are five. So if you're working nine to five, you don't get daylight hours. And so that's my motivation to exercise as I cycle. I call to and from work because I can, luckily, which is obviously not something that everybody can do, but that really, really helps me and helps maintain my mental health. And I think the really interesting thing, actually,

there's probably a direct correlation between 9 to 5 and me actually realizing I have to look after my mental health. Like, I don't know whether you remember that when I started my job, I like suddenly, like my 9 to 5 job, I suddenly got very into like running because I was like, I have to. No walks with a big. I'd be like, what are you doing? Because we used to live around

like literally like 100 metres from each other. And be like, what are you doing? Can I come over? You'd be like, I'm on a walk. Yeah, just because I needed to breathe fresh air and be outside. Which is a big thing. And I had this realization today

when I was leaving work. And just quickly, disclaimer, we, I don't know about you. I love my job. Like, I love the people I work with. Okay, very different. I'm so glad that you feel that way. Yeah, like. I love people at my work, but I don't.

think I share the same sentiment. I go to work to get paid. And hopefully one day. Well, me too. Like, I wouldn't go if I was a volunteer. There are people who would go to work if they, if they weren't being paid because that is... They've been brainwashed, that's why. Simple explanation. It was like people, no, don't get it. It's also like people who volunteer, like, in old age. I'm like, I get it, but I'm also like, why? I don't know. I'm like, you've lived your whole life, and now you're retired. You're going to go work for free because you can't do it. anything other than work. I actually really like volunteering though. But if it's like, I don't know, maybe I'm just dissing what I haven't tried yet. Yeah, I think it depends what volunteering you're

doing. I find a lot of satisfaction in volunteering because I know that what I'm doing actually contributes. But is it like, but you're outside? Because you often do like tree planting, volunteering, oh, at the food power. Not always, though. I did volunteering for a while where I worked in like a vignies, like an equivalent of vignies overseas. And I loved that. That was amazing. That was a lot because of like human connection as well and being able to talk to people. Okay, you actually didn't think that. Yeah, and I volunteer for a group called C-Change

who are a non-for-profit in Canberra. And I do that because I like it. And I think I like the feeling of contributing to being part of a community. That's like a big value for me. Yeah. So. Community is another big thing we should talk about. Yeah, definitely.

But yeah, I don't know. And I think that's probably what I do enjoy about work is having like a network of people. Yeah. That's what I was saying about my work. Like I really love the people I work with. Like the things I do feel somewhat meaningful. I have responsibility.

And I think that is really important, by the way, not to interrupt you, but if you are working in a 9-to-5 job and you have the ability to change where you are and you are not feeling fulfilled where you are, just move. Find somewhere that does fit. Yeah, if you have that flexibility.

Well, so what Erin's talking about. Like I am a notorious job quitter. Like if I don't like where I'm working, quit. Quit, quit. Like, as you should. Yeah. Life is too short. I know.

That's what I used to say. If you have the option to, life is way too short to sit in a job. Yeah. And especially I think while you're young and you don't have a mortgage. You don't have kids. You don't have looming financial responsibilities. Why not? Yeah.

And this is the thing about like being in your 20s. Like a lot of us do have that. freedom and it's like why do we submit to something that doesn't work for us and I had that like my friends used to always joke with me like you're a notorious like oh how many jobs are you working now like where are you working now Gemma because I would constantly change but I had this really very strong feeling like right now well does my oyster yeah so much freedom why would I stay in a workplace that I don't feel valued in working hours I don't feel valued in you know it just isn't

worth it and it's not worth it when you're young and you have so much health and stamina and opportunity and friendships. Yeah. To just sacrifice that. Yeah. And this is like obviously there are people in positions to not, yeah, who can't do that. Yeah.

And in which case I think I had an amazing conversation with my psychologist the other day about the concept that if you do have to be where you are and like that's something that's important to you because you need to grow your income or for whatever reason, you know, you. Maybe you do have financial responsibilities. Yeah, yeah. And in some ways as well, there are people who work to support what they love in other aspects of their life. So they'll work to be able to do other things that they really like.

And I think that's, you know, that's obviously of value as well if you do have that kind of balance. But my psychologist, I'm not going to name her, but shout out. Love her. To you. Shout out to you. Tell her to listen to this. I will. I will tell it.

I think she'd like it. Get a little bit of a patient. So we can get some more the listeners. Many people in Canberra are public servants. I would say the majority of our friends, I would say almost all of our friends, work in jobs that either serve the public service or are the public service.

So even if they are not working in a department or like a branch or a group, like that's what my job is primarily serving the public service. So you really like, it gets ingrained in you. And there's a lot of actually there are benefits. Like there's a lot of flexibility. in the public service and I'm able to go down to four days a week at the moment because of the flexibility with that. But anyway, so she was talking about this concept of happiness, if you are not somebody who loves to work and work as your life,

happiness is not just going to strike you at work like a lightning bolt from above and you're not just going to sit there and become super deliriously happy. Yeah. It's not going to happen. And for all my life, I think, because of the conversations that everybody has around careers and work and, and what you're going to be and finding fulfillment through what you do. I always thought that if I found a job that fit totally right, I would just experience insurmountable happiness. Like a dream job.

Like a dream job. Oh my goodness. The concept of a dream job. Consent of a dream job. Abolish it. Reh. Concept of a dream job. Hate it.

Because she literally said, even if you work in something that you're completely fulfilled in, it is scientifically impossible to be happy eight hours of that day. Yeah, true. You can't. Yeah. Or to be stimulated. Or to be stimulated.

Or not bored. Or not bored. Constantly. And even if you are stimulated, you're probably stressed. Yeah. You can't keep your attention for eight hours of a day. It's literally scientifically impossible unless you're on drugs. Yeah.

Even then, you still need to go to the bathroom. Maybe not. I don't know what you're taking, but. And for me, that just, I found it such a concept. And she said, you've got to create moments of happiness in your day at work. So for me, I like cycle to them from work. That's a huge bit of my. happiness I have lunch with my friend shout out Lindsay love you friend of the show friend of the show

um I have lunch with her almost every day I love it half an hour to just chat shit yeah about the world yeah um not the public service though we never chat shit about the public service never totally numb we would never talk about work on our lunch break no abolish work yeah actually you shouldn't talk about you shouldn't we had sorry just to interject we had this moment no it's like we were having dinner just like hanging out and we got into like work chat And I like came and we haven't seen each other for like a week. Gusting. I was sitting on the couch and I got into work chat.

Oh. And I really had a moment where I was like, I always promised myself. Did you ever do this when you were a kid? You're like, I'm not going to work a nine to five. Like people who talk about work on their free days, they're so lame. And then there I was. I have never ever pictured myself sitting in front of a computer in an office. And I've been doing that for a year of my life.

Wow. And I have many moments during the day where I sit there at my computer and I go, what the heck is going on here. What am I doing? Crazy. What am I doing? But, you know, it's skills gaining. It's the way of the world.

It's the way of the world. It's one of those things. And I don't think anybody preps you for it. No. Well, I actually think maybe they do. Like school kind of preps you for it. Think about like going to school. But that's the thing.

I had this thought and not in a good way that it preps you for it. But like a whole life we're conditioned to give up the hours of our day. to something that we might not always see a purpose in. Like, you go to school from 830, 3.30, and then, you know, you go to work from 9 to 5. Like, I used to fall asleep in school classes. Yeah, I'm sure you would have. You would have been so bored. How can you sit down that long?

Anyway, so in terms of creating happiness in your workday, so you don't feel like that, like me sitting at my desk going, what the fuck am I doing? Having an existential crisis every single moment, you know. She was like, go get coffee if that's something that you like. Do something in the builds, connect. if that's something you like, you know? And I really, I really appreciate that concept and like going for a little walk in the afternoon.

Do you do it. Go for a little walk. Who's stopping you, you know? And let's talk about that. So that's actually really good skills, like really good habits to form. Because I feel like I don't have that right now. Like, I often skip my lunch break. I often don't go outside.

Absolutely not. I drive to work. And then today I saw the sunset and I like almost cried because I was like, wow. real existence. But let's talk about making the most of your off time because you do a really good job at that. Do I? Yeah, you do it.

Thank you. No, you're so good at it. You're always like, you just prioritise your friends. You do things that make you happy. Like, she works 9 to 5 and she still has time to volunteer. Like, I haven't volunteered for about six years. Well, it's what you value, right? I don't value work.

So I think I do put a lot of time and energy into doing things. Like on almost every day that I work, because I work four days at the moment, on two of those four days, so 50% I have a set activity that I know I will be doing every week. And then the other 50% of that time, I usually feel with spending time with friends. So I go to poll on Tuesday night, which I love. So that's like my first day back at work, absolutely heinous, gross. But I get to go to poll on the evening. And that's something I really like.

I tried to get her into spin classes, but we tried once. We tried spin on Wednesday. I cycle, so why would I spin when I cycle? But still loved it, still loved it, of course. Yeah, and then on Thursday I played netball, and it's like social netball, which is amazing. And I never picture myself playing netball either. But it's really good because I get to spend time with a whole bunch of people that I really like, and they're super lovely. And then on Friday, I usually do something really fun with my friends.

Yeah, normally we get drunk. Or I go out for drinks. They're actually, that's an interesting. topic, people drinking to forget the fact that they have to work five days a week, because I think that is a big thing to talk about. That's a big trend, especially in Canberra where a lot of people have disposable incomes and no children. And a job that means that they have both days on the weekend off.

Yeah. So it's also a lot of young people. Like, I feel like most of the people who are listening, but like it's a lot of people who are like under the age of 30, moved it for the APS, and have just come in to heaps of money off and moved out of home. And it is a huge thing. Also, the big thing is if you're young, like, this is meant to be your time to really figure yourself out. If you're working all the time, when you do have time off, there's this huge compulsion

to be like, I need to have fun. I need to be fun. I need to, like, do things, make memories. And often that's like, well, I need to be drunk. Or like, what's the Canberra? In Canberra, there's not much to do. If you're okay, we're not really outdoorsy people. Like we have a lot of friends who like, you ride your bike,

but like we have friends who are like, go to the snow. Ultra marathon runners. Kate. Shout to Kay. Yeah. Tenaia, Lucy, they always go skiing. Like they always cycle, Meg. Yeah.

I think there's a lot of people who do the weekend activities that require traveling and then your whole weekend is spent camping. I wish I could be that person. I think we should work on it maybe. Um. Hey, we're going to break. with this weekend. We are. We're going to brave with us. That's making the most year weekend. Yeah, but this is the thing. We need, we got off. Well, actually, quickly. Yeah, please. Sorry,

we often get off track in our conversations in case you haven't noticed. That's the thing, right? And if you have three days a weekend, three days on your weekend, you can have a day going on a little trip. Yeah. And your other days, you don't only then have one day to get your whole life together and then go back to work on one day. You have two days to get your life back together and go back to work on a day. Or you could take a night time. You could go for a night. I mean, you could do that, I guess, if you've only got two days a week. Yeah. Two days a week off. Just basically what we're saying is so much more opportunity. Just to do more things. Yeah. And like Aaron was saying, and like we kind of went off this point a little bit, but I do really want to talk about it because I think you

raise a really good point. When everyone's young, everyone's been forced into these lives that they don't necessarily love. You've kind of cut short your young years. Oh my goodness. Premature. Like, I'm 21. I've become like a 50 year old. I've, I'm sitting here on my, on my couch with my cat. Yeah. Am I? Drinking tea? Are I 50?

No. What happened to my like 20s? But this is the thing because you always have that like what happened to my 20s, what happened to my young years? Where were they? What did I do? Yeah. And it was gone and now I've sitting in an office. Yeah.

I know. Now you sit in an office and I think that is a thing that really like, because this is the time to be young and like we're talking about psychology here, our brains don't really want to be pushed in. We're still developing. So our brains are seeking new stimulation, new memories, new experiences. So you often see like there's nothing to do on the weekend. A lot of people have disposable income. Go out and get drunk. Go out and drink and forget that, you know, you have to go to work in the day. Yeah. And then, you know, it's awful because then you get really hung over and then your whole Sunday's gone anyhow. So now you only have a one day weekend. Yeah. It sucks. You know, there is actually

there is actually a formula to making your days good. What is it? I've told you about this before, right? No, you have never told me about this. No. Okay, so again, my beautiful psychologist, shout out. She said that when I started having my Mondays off, she said, okay, that's great. Don't spend all day on the couch resting because whilst rest is great, you need to do something that makes you feel fulfilled.

And so she said that you need to do something on that day that brings you joy. Yeah. So something that you really like. So that could be like spending time with friends or cooking something nice. I often like do a little bit of planting, like a new little plant, plants and seedlings. Painting. Painting. Reading.

Reading. Something that's practical. So prepping dinner for next week. Laundry. I often try to clean every Monday. So the house is nice and clean for the. the week ahead. You need to do something that's cognitive.

So itaches the scratch in your brain. So an easy one is watching a documentary. But Scrabble. Scrabble. Crosswords. Crosswords. Scrabble. I guess.

I haven't thought of that one. Words. Or like researching a topic that you're really into or like a new qualification that you want podcast about something scientific or that's kind of my. realm of interest is like science and the climate and stuff like that or like doing a bit of reading you read the i read heaps you read so much but you read really intellectual stuff i don't think so i think i just read like really weird novels that are like kind of whack like you were talking about reading that article oh yeah so my friend got like a new yorker subscription and um like when he's finished

with them he like gives them to me and i read this really insanely good article about the rise of ovarian cancer and like rural alabama and like the intersection between that and like medicaid and how like yeah this is a real detour but it's a really good article so that's something that's cognitive right yeah and it was actually was really fulfilling because i read it right before bed and i felt like i'd done something that challenged my brain rather than just pressing your button on an excel spreadsheet um and then you've got to do something that's physical so exercise so go for a walk um i love going for a walk up a hill where i live at the moment and if you time it right you can see a little sunset which is gorgeous

that's like a combination of joy combination of joy all the others all the others I come up of joy so something that brings you joy something that is practical yeah something that's cognitive

and something that's physical there you go there's the equation that's the equation so if you do all of those things in your day then you'll feel better you'll feel better but I don't want to say you'll be happy because happiness is a construct

but it is that really helps me. And that makes me feel like I've... Because productivity sometimes I think can... There's a very narrow field of what productivity actually is. And I think sometimes there's a big push to be productive

and what does productivity look like and the rise of the that girl... Oh yeah. ...trend on Instagram. Which we can talk about ours so we won't go into it. We'll do it on our other episodes. Yeah. But that's also tied to like professional success.

and like having everything put together and like a big part of that is like having the job or like working towards the job and I think what we're really talking about here is like if we took the job out of the equation or the nine to five job would everything really fall apart or would everyone get a little bit happier? Like universal basic income.

Just look at the studies done with universal basic income and how those that want to work work people who find joy in working work and people who don't get to pursue what they actually love. And I feel like everyone falls into place of doing things that, like, you know, that they would enjoy. Like, and that would actually, they'd be good at, they'd be specialized at. You would have more productivity and efficiency, I think, because you wouldn't have a bunch of people who feel compelled to work, but not motivated to work. Which is a huge thing I'm sure you've seen.

Like, so many people who are like, oh, I've got to go to work. And when they get to work, do you really think they're going to be there like, yeah, I'm at work. Like, let me put in everything I've got. let me really commit to this. No, they're not going to flip and do that, especially when you're in your 20s or in your 30s or when you're young and you have so much other shit that you want to do. And I just think like, yeah,

I just don't think that it necessarily works. And I think with what you were saying about that equation, you've got these four things you need to prioritize. Do you find it easier to do it on days when you're not working or days when you are? Oh, I don't think about it on days I work because I simply do not have time. There we go. Because by the time, I have woken up

Yeah Got myself to work Been at work Come home I've got what Three or four hours left in the day Yeah And most of that is spent

Eating dinner Or having to cook dinner So you're home by five You want to be in bed by 10 Yeah Yeah you want to be in bed by 10 So you don't feel like Absolute crap

The next morning You've got a shower You've got to tidy up Do whatever you need to do in your house Yeah Take care of yourself eat So at the end of the day often as somebody who is a little bit introverted,

I often just sit and watch television because I'm like, I do not have the mental capacity to do anything else that is slightly challenging. Or you go and do something that is good, like you go to netball, there's your physical thing, and there's your joy thing, not really practical, but yeah, like physical and joyful, there's two things that are really nice, somewhat cognitive,

but it's also like, but then you have less time to take care of yourself. Completely. So it's this whole thing, if it's like, when eight hours of your day are gone and the first three hours, two hours are spent just fucking getting ready and going to work well, I lie in bed for an hour because I literally don't want to go to work.

Oh, terrible. I always set my alarm at 10 past seven, but I get up at 7.40. Yeah. Because I like to wake up and then be like, oh, I get a snooze a little bit. Because if I wake up at 7.40, I'm going to be like, it's just not going to go well.

Yeah, and I've really been cutting it thinner and thinner. Like, today I work up at 750 and I was like, shit. Yeah. I want 40 minutes to get out the door. I've actually, I managed to perfect it down to 15 minutes getting out of the door at one stage when I just was so sad about going to work. I couldn't get out of bed. Which is not a, that's not a good space to be in and I'm not there anymore.

When I first started working my 9 to 5 job? And there have been occasions as well that I have literally had to, like, I've not been able to get out of bed in the morning and I've slept in. And then I've woken up at 11 and I've had to call work and have a chat to them and be like, hey, this is going on. My mental health is not great at the moment. And luckily they've been really understanding. How much of that do you think was tied to work? Do you think it was just like a balance or other things? I think it really, it really was tied to work.

And it was tied to the fact that I had no time for myself and I was just so exhausted. And my mind was just not able to cope at all. And I think as well, like if you have a mental illness, like I find it really important to have time. to prioritize just looking after myself. Because sometimes looking after yourself is quite difficult. And sometimes it does like take time to do things that other people could do quite quickly. Yeah. You know?

So part of that is like if I have more time on the weekend, it is easier to do stuff like that. Yeah. No, that's a really big thing. And I'm glad that you kind of, um, recognize that and kind of took control and were like, yeah, this needs to change. But it's, you know, and you were really lucky that you, they were. somewhat yeah no I was really lucky flexible around that somewhat flexible yeah

but do you think if you weren't working your nine to five what do you think you would be doing or is that too much of a scary question no um sorry I'm I'm taking a moment to think yeah I um I had a concept of one stage of really wanting to be able to do woofing which is like working on an organic farm

what's it all woofing W-O-O-F F? Maybe just one F. And so basically you work on an organic farm for free in exchange for like shelter and food. Wow. This is a real socialist episode. Universal basic income, free accommodation. Well, because I was, I think I really enjoy doing things where they're super practical. And whilst I did not grow up in a farm by any shape or form, I love plants. which you know.

Yes, she does. I own a lot of house plans. I'm staring at them all right now. It's about 15. They are very hard to miss. They are in your face. Well, there's 15 on that one table alone. I know.

And then you just look around and there's even more. But yeah, I just love the concept of like maybe live in a commune. Yeah. Oh, gosh. That's a terrible thing to say. No, it's not. It's not at all. But why?

I feel like it's very like, no, basic. No, it's not. But if it's basic, we have to also examine, like, why do so many people want to do, like, how many people listening have those fantasies of dropping everything and going and living in a van or traveling the world or moving to a new country or, like, living in a commune? I think it's super stigmatized because it's the absolute other end of the spectrum from what, like, capitalist society expects of you. Yeah. And sometimes it's stigmatized. Like, you're trying to be, like, unique. Like, oh, look at you go.

It's like, actually, maybe you're just doing the thing that's right for you and you just. are scared that you can't do it. Well, who is meant to be living in an office? No one. Not living, sorry. Well, practically. Yeah. If you consider you're spending how much?

Well, 35% of your waking hours at work, but that does not include, you know, the time spent getting ready for work, the commute. Like, I'm, what, like an hour commute every day? Oh, my goodness. Like, I have to leave 30 minutes earlier, and then it takes me 30 minutes to get home. It's another hour. Then you have to fucking get ready for work. then you have to depress from work

and then you have to have a shower and then if you want to go to the gym like there's just all these things that become so much more limited whereas if you worked in a commune you really have a lot more time just to actually exist and know yourself and I think that's so important

and what working in an office does not do is allow you space or time to be an individual because that's the last thing that capitalism will want yeah can you imagine oh the world would fall apart

If people actually realize that, and again, if this is your goal in life, I'm not dissing it. But moving up in a workplace, what is it, like, what is it going to serve you? What are you going to get from that? Yeah. Apart from like a weird narcissistic sense of power. And money. And money, obviously. Yeah.

I thought this as well, because I think when I was in high school, I was really like, all I want to do is make heaps of money and be super successful and everyone admire me. But why did you want to do that? Because I didn't have anything else that I thought would bring me meaning. Wow. So that's the thing, because I was like, this is what I've been taught will bring me meaning. This is what I imagine. People admire people who are rich. People admire people who are successful.

And I'm so dependent on people admiring me. And then I got to uni and about my second, third year, I was like really restructured that whole ideal. And I just had this moment where I was just like, that is actually not going to work for me. It's not going to work for me because I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I do work for nine to five now. Don't I? But is your one life goal to become the CEO? Hell no. Exactly.

Hell no. You're not a hypocrite. You just exist within a capitalist society. But also I'm working because I know that I need money to go off and do the things that I want to do. And I think I've also been able to do other stuff alongside it. Like I do this podcast, like have heaps of time for other things in my life. But yeah, I think that that was a huge thing that I had on my mind. Like, this is what I need for my life.

Like, this is what I want. And then I had to completely rethink it. And I used to always be like, oh, I don't imagine people who are like, you're just going to be a bum all day. I was very conservative. I'm not now. Obviously, I was discussed in the last episode. Yeah, yeah.

Done a full 180. But I really think it's like restructuring your priorities. And I think a lot of people hit that point where they have that conundrum. And why do you think people have a mid-like? crisis yeah exactly that's i mean like because quarter life crisis is a quarter life crisis because you realize that like what you're doing what what what's it actually and i think actually quickly um COVID has had a huge huge like generated huge societal shift into wow okay life's actually quite short yeah life is really uncertain we don't know what's going on yeah so you better

do something that you actually enjoy. Yeah, and family, spend time with family. And I actually think that as well. And also just like how many workplaces, you know, how much we realize that actually you could take time off? Oh. Like you could work from home. Quickly.

You could be flexible. Half pay. What was that? I don't know whether that's available to you, but it's a bit of a thing in the APS. If you take leave, take leave with half pay. if you can afford it because basically for that day of leave or days of leave you will get half your pay but that means you get twice as much leave. Oh if you can afford it.

If you can afford it. Concept. I didn't know that was something people could do until like eight months into working in this job. I want to do that. I don't get leave. You don't get leave. Are you a contractor? Well yeah, I just get, I'm not on a permanent contract.

Yeah. So I'm technically casual but I work. Well, but I don't know. but I'm on a semi-permanent basis working nine to five. Oh my goodness. But I think it's just because I started out there as someone who was like just there as like a support person like as a researcher and then I got like promoted. That's how they get you. No.

I love my workplace but like it's not the workplace that I don't like. It's the concept of the work life. Yes. That's a really big thing to distinguish. Well, I truly and I have had a serious existential breakdown. about this before now in front of my mom and my brother where I literally lay on the kitchen floor and I cried because I was like, why can I not simply receive money for existing? Yeah.

Why do I need money? Why do I need money and why do I have to work to a gidist? And I can hear the economic bros shouting at me as I say this. Shut up Brad and that's your name. Oh gosh. Oh. Something lame like that. Oh.

But why, like, why? Yeah. Why do humans, like, we've created, obviously, this you should do. Yeah. But why, why do, like, why don't we choose a better one? Nothing about me existing actually requires dollar, dollar bills. Yeah. Nothing.

Right? Nothing. It obviously facilitates things like healthcare and someone where to live. But then again, why does that require dollar, dollar bills? Why does that require dollar dollar bills? Yeah, we got to go back to them. It wouldn't. Well, once upon a time, it wouldn't have. I mean bartering.

But you also would have died at 35. But I also would have died. Oh, I would have died very early on. I got sick as a very young child. I would have been killed off early. Oh. We do not condone infanticide on the sky. No, no, no, no.

I'm sorry. No, I'm kidding. I'm teasing. No, but you're right. Like, why does everything require money? And that's what I think we were really getting out. What's the pressure? The pressure is money.

Yeah. The pressure is two things, actually, like kind of what I was saying, the pressure to be need to be conformity. and to be doing what you think is going to give you meaning and work is what is given so many generations of people meaning because that was really a necessity and also money and money allows you to do other things

but it's like that equation it's like another equation where it's like at what point do you not even have the time to spend the money that you are earning because you wanted to spend money on things that you like and at what point are you just accumulating wealth and for who? Yeah, where's that going to go when you're dead? Where's that going to go when you're dead?

And if we throw into this, the good old little climate crisis lurking in the background if we only have like how much amount of time that we have left which probably not a lot before things really hit the fan

hit the fan am I going to spend 20 of the best years that we have left on this planet as human beings before we go extinct sitting in an office staring at a computer screen it's like an episode of black mirror It is like, we're living in an episode of Black Mirror.

We really are. But, and seriously, I'm like, so, I mean, if this is a motivation to anybody, quit your job. Are you going to quit your job? Look, I need to figure out what I want to do that is not working 9 to 5, and then I will be seriously considering. And I'm locked in. The job that I'm in right now requires a certain period of time.

Yeah. to do things in. So to do things in. It's like a set contract, we'll say. So it's kind of like, but if you have the opportunity, also, if there's younger people who are like, because I remember last year I had this whole thing where I was like, I just want to get a normal job. Like I just want to work nine to five.

And I thought that was going to make me happy. I was like, I just want to do it like that. No, no, no, no, no. Spend as much time as you can on a, centerlink. if you have that option or be just like doing other things working jobs that are you know might be different hours but like

are a lot more suitable for your lifestyle having a nine to five job fitting into that lifestyle doesn't actually bring meaning it doesn't make you a more mature person you don't need to rush to grow up and fit into that because you just give away so much of your freedom and even though you might have been told your whole life

that that's something to aspire to and work towards sometimes it's just not It's just not. And, you know, the grass is always grown around the other side, but... Yeah, exactly. That's what... Obviously. But if you seriously, like, seriously consider what is it that brings you meaning and value?

And joy. And joy. Yeah. For probably 80% of people, it is not working in an office. No. It's not for me. No, it's not for you. Yeah.

Oh, it is. There we go. There's 100% out of our sample of two. So. So, obviously, lessons learned. Peer-reviewed research. Yeah, literally peer-reviewed because we are peers. We need to say goodbye because we have recorded 45 minutes of this.

But I hope, well, I hope especially that this was kind of an informative look into what it's like transitioning into 9 to 5 work when you're in your 20 years, the psychological shifts and changes that you undergo. And, yeah, what it means for your health, what it means for your sanity and your sense of self. and why it's probably not all it's cracked up to be. And, yeah, I think it was just a good discussion of the pressures that you face to fit into that mold, even if it's against your own well-being. Yeah. So thanks, Erin.

Thanks for having me. No way. You know, I love a good chat about work. Yeah. No more work chat. No more work chats. No more work chats. Can we ban them?

I think we should. I think we definitely should. Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed this episode. We'll have a new episode next week. It's The Psychology of the Breakup. And, yeah, spicy, spicy. It's a juicy, juicy episode. Oh, yeah.

It's juicy indeed. Everyone's giving me a knowing look. But thanks for tuning in. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks so much. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me.

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