The Psychology of your 20s - 39. The psychology of hangiexty
Episode Date: August 7, 2022On this episode we talk about the interactions between alcohol and the brain. Alcohol can be a huge part of our lives in our 20’s, as can anxious feelings the morning after drinking so it’s import...ant to understand why our body (and our brain) reacts this way to alcohol and how we can remedy those feelings of stress the next day.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Hello and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Well, hello, thank you for tuning into the psychology of your 20s for this episode.
This week's topic, we're going to be talking about alcohol.
and alcohol consumption in our 20s, there is so much that we could talk about when it comes to
drinking and the culture around drinking, binge drinking, peer pressure.
It would genuinely take, I think, a whole series of episodes to really uncover all the
links between alcohol and psychology and our 20s.
So I thought for this episode, we'd start pretty simple, but we'd start strong.
and we talk about anxiety, so anxiety that you feel after you've been drinking.
I think that alcohol is such an important topic to discuss when we're thinking about our
psychology and our well-being and how that interacts with other factors in our life in this
decade.
Alcohol plays a pretty profound role, I would say, for those of us who choose to drink,
especially in Australia where I'm from.
I think alcohol is kind of a central feature of a lot of social interactions.
We go to the pub.
We get drinks on a Friday.
We drink after work.
We drink on birthdays.
We drink at the beach.
Like a lot of social elements all rest upon drinking and a pretty strong drinking
culture especially.
And I think that as well, alcohol is something that a lot of us will, you know,
drinking in our late teens, but in our 20s when we can kind of access it more easily,
when we have money to purchase alcohol, consumption kind of goes up. And like I said, it's a big
part of our lives, a big part of our social lives. So it's important to talk about and to talk
about in a healthy way and in a nuanced way considering other things that it involves like our
mental health. I think drinking in particular is, really takes a big, becomes a big feature of our
lives when we go to uni or when we're in our early 20s and you start drinking in college or
with friends that you've made in trades or from high school. And there is a really big binge drinking
mentality. I especially found that at college, you know, there was no kind of limit. We didn't have a
good understanding of how much it would take to get us really drunk. And even if we did, we'd probably
still drink past that point. And we've all had, I think, for those of us who choose to drink,
have stories about, you know, when we've taken it too far, when we haven't eaten anything and
then done a couple shots or had a few too many beers with our friends at the pub. And there is a
big culture around that. So I think it's something to discuss, especially in our 20s, because
it isn't all just fun and gains. There can be consequences both in the long term and on a really
serious level, like alcoholism or excessive drinking or doing shit that like really fucks up your life,
getting injured, making mistakes. But then there's also the kind of less severe, more
short-term impacts on our mental well-being and on our psychology, such as anxiety, which is
really important to have a discussion around. As we, we have a question around, as we have.
mature, you know, I hopefully begin to learn healthier habits around alcohol. I definitely have
a lot of my friends and I have been discussing how we really can't drink the way that we did when
we were 20 or 21 and, you know, going out like three nights in a row. Nowadays, that's just completely
out of the picture for me. And I think a massive reason is because it doesn't, that excessive
drinking doesn't really fit well into the narrative I have around my mental health or my
psychological well-being, which has become more important to me than those kind of wild stories
or getting home at 4 a.m. So there is a lot to talk about when we're discussing the intersections
of psychology and alcohol, but of course I'm going to limit myself to anxiety, something I think
we can all relate to if we drink, especially if we've had a big night. We're going to talk about
why our brain reacts to alcohol in that way, if you're someone who experiences anxiety.
the consequences and also how to maybe limit it, how to get over that weird, anxious, depressive
period the day after you've been drinking or the week after you've been drinking, how to kind
of move past that and have a healthier relationship with alcohol and with your body
so that you don't have that kind of negative come down. So I hope you all enjoy and we learn
something today. Okay, so for those of you who don't know what anxiety is, it's a pretty
common term I don't know amongst my kind of friendship group if you haven't heard of it before if maybe
you're from a different country where this isn't a term essentially it describes that kind of pretty
common anxious feeling of dread or nervousness after a night of drinking it might also be linked to
a feeling of embarrassment or doom that you've done something really stupid as you're recovering from a big
night or a big day. Generally, it's just describing a feeling or a state of heightened alertness
and anxiety and stress or fear that we can directly link to a period or an episode of excessive
drinking. Now, if you are someone who experiences anxiety or stress after you've been drinking
a lot, you are by no means the only one. Anxiety during a hangover affects around.
20% of people from some estimates and can pretty much vary in severity as many things do,
depending on the kind of person you are, depending on other factors that are impacting your
psychological state at the time that you were drinking, but also the morning after when you might
be experiencing some of those hangover side effects. So as the body recovers from a night of
drinking, from binge drinking, a hangover can create a
a state of physiological stress. So that often happens when the body is under pressure,
like after an illness or injury, and alcohol can create the same kind of impact on us.
So this isn't so much about anxiety. This is some of the physical effects that we might
experience after a hangover or after a big night of drinking, you know, the headaches, the sweating,
nausea, all of those things. And anxiety kind of works the same way. Not only does it cause changes
to our immune system, it also increases our cortisol levels, that's known as the stress hormone,
our blood pressure, our heart rate, and then on a deeper level, on a more psychological, neurological
level, it also changes the neurochemicals and neurotransmitters being released in our brain.
And what does that feel like? What does that anxiety feel like? Well, I kind of alluded to this,
But as I've gotten older, obviously I'm not that old and still in my 20s, but as I have had more things kind of come onto my plate, as I've matured, as I've grown, as I've had more responsibilities, as my brain is kind of developed and formed, as it often does in our early and mid-20s, what I found is when I drink, if I've had a really big night, I haven't been watching what I've been drinking.
I had this happen recently at a work function.
the champagne was flowing and the next morning and especially the next day I was just feeling so
panicky and nervous and stressed and flighty even though I didn't feel like I'd done anything embarrassing
I hadn't really done anything or nothing had happened that had given me a reason to feel anxious
I could recognize that the amount of alcohol I drank the night before had actually caused
changes in my body that were making me feel really really shit and I have
had so many friends who have told me similar things recently after big nights out. Not only do they
have those normal hangover symptoms that we all kind of expect, the sweating, the nausea, the headache,
feeling vile, but they were also really anxious for no reason. Or for one reason, which was
that the amount of alcohol they're drunk had impacted their brain and created a sense of
arousal and a sense of anxiety. This can feel really terrible.
I think a big reaction that I normally have is like I'm never drinking again. I'm never
drinking to that level again. We all know that's not the case. If you are someone who drinks and
drinks socially, it's very easy for things to get out of hand, especially if someone's buying
drinks, if it's a function. So it is important to understand if you do continue drinking after a
bad anxiety episode. It's important to understand why this state of psychological arousal occurs and
how we can kind of bounce back from a big night without that terribly anxious feeling causing us to
dread the future or dread our current state. So yeah, you're probably, you know, pretty familiar with
the usual physical symptoms of a hangover, but like I said, it can have psychological symptoms as
well. So anxiety is that link between our psychological state and having a hangover. This can mean that
when you are experiencing anxiety during a hangover, where you're worried about something you did
under the influence, or maybe you're regretting things, trying to remember the evening, or maybe
just feeling a little bit off, we can attribute this not so much to what we would see as the
physical reactions to alcohol, but the psychological, neurological reactions to alcohol.
And if you already suffer from anxiety or depression, even social anxiety, experiencing a
hangover can make those symptoms of anxiety a lot worse. Even though alcohol can lessen feelings of
anxiety whilst drinking, which we're going to talk about a little bit later, there is that rebound
effect that may make you feel far worse and feeling beyond your normal symptoms of stress and anxiety
the following morning. And unfortunately, experiencing those uncomfortable emotions can make us feel
like maybe we're not drinking enough alcohol to mask those feelings, making you drink more and more,
especially if you know you've had a big day out in the town and you're kind of playing catch up
and you've been drinking for a while and those feelings of anxiety are coming up as you're still
kind of in a social setting. It can cause us to drink more. And many people do use alcohol as kind of
a social lubricant as a bit of liquid courage as my friends and I always say before one of us goes on a date.
you know, a few shots of fireball kind of loosens you up. And if you live with anxiety,
particularly social anxiety, you will find that having a drink or two before a big social event
or when you arrive will help you relax and cope with anxious feelings. And this is why. This is
why we have that initial reaction of feeling more calm, more at ease, perhaps more social,
and why it actually is completely and inextricably linked to the anxiety you'll feel the next day.
So alcohol, it is what we would class as a downer drug.
So we have uppers, which is things like MDMA or caffeine and downers.
So basically downers reduce arousal and activity within our central nervous system
by targeting different receptors and neurotransmitters in our brain.
So alcohol in particular targets the GABA receptor.
So in our brain we have neurotransmitters, which are those tiny little hormonal or chemical messages that get sent around, things like dopamine and serotonin, which we've talked about before.
And then you have the parts of the neuron. And one of those is a receptor. And the receptor is kind of like the front door. It's the thing that allows the neurotransmitters to come in.
But alcohol targets that receptor, the GABA receptors, which send signals through the brain and the central nervous system to inhibit the activity of a nerve cell.
So basically alcohol kind of makes that receptor shut the door more frequently on other neurotransmitters coming in.
So put simply, when you first start drinking, it calms the brain and it reduces excitement by making fewer neurons fire.
So because alcohol targets or stimulates GABA receptors, this is why you, if you have anxiety or, you know, you're just a general person, why you might start to feel relaxed and cheerful when you're a few classes in, when you've had a, you know, I've had a few drinks.
And it kind of causes you to relax.
So when you've just started drinking, that kind of lulls you into that blissful, gabber induced state of chill.
It's kind of like your peak point.
But then as you keep drinking more when you get to your third or fourth drink, another brain kind of slackening effect kicks in.
Alcohol causes your brain to start blocking a neurotransmitter called glutamate.
So glutamate is an excitory neurotransmitter.
So it causes activity in your brain to occur more frequently and at a faster rate.
So more glutamate means more anxiety.
Less glutamate means less anxiety.
So this is why when you get drunk, we're less anxious than when we're just a tiny bit drunk.
It's why our social inhibition goes down.
It's why we can kind of talk more easily because alcohol has blocked glutamate the neurotransmitter
that would normally make you feel kind of anxious or a little bit like suspicious.
of your words. Not only does alcohol reduce the chatter in your brain by stimulating gabber,
but it further reduces your anxiety by blocking gluten-mate. So that's why you feel really good.
You feel like you can have all those weird drunk chats with, you know, people outside the club
or at the pub or in the bathroom, why you always have like really deep and meaningful conversations
with people. Because normally glutamate would be telling your brain to kind of, you know,
reel it in a little bit to stay alert, but when that's not around as much, we're more chilled out.
So the body registers this imbalance in brain chemicals, and it kind of attempts to put things right.
So it's kind of like when you eat a lot of sugar and your body starts producing a lot of insulin
to process that sugar and to get your blood sugar levels back to normal.
But as soon as you've digested all of those marshmallows or chubber chubs or whatever you've eaten,
all that insulin causes your blood sugar to crash.
And then your body has to try and get it back up to a normal level.
So when you're really drunk, your body realizes that something isn't right.
A foreign substance, alcohol has come into your body
and it's kind of messing with your neurotransmitters and your gaba receptors
and your glutamate levels.
So when you stop drinking, you will end up with a naturally low gaba function
and a spike in glutamate because you're,
body and your mind is trying to compensate for the fact that the alcohol has kind of numbed you a
little bit. This is why we feel anxiety or have withdrawal from alcohol. This is why we get
anxiety. So essentially what's going to happen is that after you've been drinking, your brain,
once there's less alcohol in your system, is going to pick up that there isn't enough
glutamate or the right status quo amount of glutamate to let us function. So it's going to
shoot production and release of those neutral transmitters back up.
And we know that glutamate is associated with anxiety.
So to compensate for that deficit in glutamate from the night before, it's going to produce a lot.
And so you're going to start feeling quite tense and anxious.
And it can take the brain a day or two to kind of return to its normal state.
And if you drank for an awfully long time, it can also sometimes take a week.
for your brain to readapt.
And the consequences of that and why it relates to anxiety is that during that time that
your brain is trying to restore normal functioning, you're going to feel really anxious and
you're going to feel really tense.
It's kind of the seesaw of emotion and psychological states where you're at one end right
down the bottom and now you're way up the other side and your brain is trying to find that
balance so that you can get back to a normal state of functioning, a normal state of arousal,
and your brain can recover from a big night. So imbalances in GABA and glutamate are not the only
problem. There are some deeper interactions that create anxiety and that feeling of anxiousness
and stress after you've had a big night of drinking or out of it. Okay, so we've talked about
Gabba and we've talked about glutamate, but alcohol can also cause a rise in nor a
adrenaline. And this is known as our fight or flight hormone. So noradrenaline suppresses
stress when it's first released and increases in withdrawal. So severe anxiety is often associated
with a surge in noradrenaline in the brain. Let me kind of explain. So sorry, so yeah,
it's normally associated with a surge of noradrenaline. So when you can, you can, you know,
consume alcohol. Basically, our brain suppresses this hormone so you feel less aroused, less stressed.
But then once you stop drinking, it tries to return to normal levels. And that's another key
cause of anxiety. And another reason why we might feel it and might be anxious the next day is
because you might find that you're not able to remember some of the things that you've done
whilst you're inebriated.
And that's because we need things like noradrenaline and glutamate and all of those kind of systems
to remember things and consolidate memories.
And we also need noradrenaline to tell us and tell our brain when something's really important
and we should probably remember it.
So if we don't have normal levels of that, our brain isn't able to kind of lay down memories
in the same way.
So that it might also just be.
another underlying reason why you're pretty anxious the next day because you're thinking back on
your night, there's things that you can't remember. You're like, did I say something embarrassing?
Did I do something embarrassing? Or you can kind of only remember flashes of it and it's enough to
make you feel stressed. That's because of an imbalance in your brain where your brain isn't
able to consolidate memories as well. And if that's ringing any bells, it may be because
anxiety associated with that and in general doesn't affect us all.
as revealed by this really interesting study that was published in a journal called personality
and individual differences. So this was conducted in 2019 and it looked at, I think, around 100 people
and what they wanted to measure is how does alcohol impact us differently based on our varying
levels of social openness or shyness? So researchers asked 50 of the participants to drink as they
usually would in a social situation and the other half of the participants to stay sober.
And then they measured the levels of anxiety before, during and after the period where people
were either drinking or they were sober. And according to the authors, the people who were
more shy had much higher of levels of anxiety the following day than people who weren't shy.
And they also found a correlation between having bad anxiety and the chances of
of having an alcohol use disorder or using alcohol to kind of numb some of those feelings
of social anxiety when you're going into a situation.
So the interactions that alcohol has with our brain isn't just important for anxiety and
feeling nervous the next day, but it might also have a link with problematic drinking
if you are someone who's anxious normally.
And one theory as to why shy people might be more at risk of anxiety and even sometimes
alcohol problems is the possibility of that seesaw effect on gabber levels and it being more pronounced
in them. So your baseline gabber levels when you're an anxious person might be lower to start with.
And it could also be a psychological effect. People who are more highly anxious are more prone to
rumination going over thoughts about the night before. So that's another potential mechanism.
Also if your levels of those important hormones, gluten-Aid and noradrenaline, are pretty,
high or low to start with, the compensation that your brain has to make the days after
drinking is going to be more pronounced. And we know that as noradrenaline and glutamate levels
are restored, anxiety and stress comes with it. So if you're someone who's shy and you had
lower levels of that to begin with or higher levels in some cases, it kind of swings back
around and can really knock you on your butt. So the study also does have a lot of, you know,
implications. After all, I think a lot of us as drinkers, or if you do drink at some point or another,
do lean on alcohol to kind of make us more easygoing, make friends easier, and as a social
lubricant to some degree in a lot of social settings. But if you're someone who is repeatedly using
alcohol for those reasons and drinking to excess, it might be because there is kind of an
imbalance in your brain, or you are experiencing more anxiety around social interactions in general,
so your brain is compensating and you're experiencing worse hangovers, more anxiety the next day.
This type of anxiety, it might not happen every time you drink.
And although I have kind of said that people who are naturally shy or less socially kind of interested might experience anxiety more,
it isn't just confined to that group of people.
Of course, there are external and extraneous things and context in our lives.
that we need to think of and consider when we're thinking about this reaction to alcohol.
If you're going through a difficult time in your life, yes, it might be a reaction to lean on
alcohol as a crutch because it is a socially acceptable drug, because it does make you feel
better. And if you're feeling anxious and stressed in the short term, you're going to feel amazing.
But if you have all those things, if you've got something really stressful going on, you'll probably be
responding differently to alcohol than if you know you just come back from holiday or you're feeling
really great or you're feeling really confident. Somebody who isn't experiencing any issues with mood
might also notice anxiety, but it's probably going to be more physiologically based and more to do
what happened the night before rather than some kind of imbalance which is causing stress for no
reason. There's also the case of certain medications. So if you're already taking anxiety levels with
interacting upon noradrenaline and serotonin and glutamate and your gabber receptors or even anti-inflammatory
medications like ibuprofen. I know before I went out, people are always like, don't take any panadol or
aspirin or anything like that because it will have an effect with alcohol. These will interact and
your medications may be less effective, which is why you might feel more anxious, restless or agitated.
If you're taking a medication for anxiety, people who've made that medication,
they're considering you being completely sober.
Of course they've done studies to see the interactions between that medication and alcohol,
but they're just trying to make it so that you can function on the daily when you're not drinking.
So excessive binge drinking is something that needs to be taken into account
if you are choosing to take medications for an anxiety disorder
or any other thing that you might already have going on.
And some medications also carry a risk of other side effects like memory impairment,
which is another big reason why the next day you might be feeling a little bit of regret
if you can't really figure out what actually happened.
And then of course there's the more serious things like organ damage and ulcers,
especially if you're taking kidney or liver medication as well.
So if you do feel anxious the morning after,
it's important to recognize and understand why that might be the case before you kind of panic.
You need to be really kind to yourself.
You should go for a walk.
Breathe really deeply.
Talk to a friend whose judgment you can trust.
If you're nervous about something you've done the night before,
if that's why you're experiencing anxiety,
I love doing this with my friends,
having a bit of a debrief.
And it's probably the fact that there really isn't anything to worry about.
But we also know that sometimes when we do drink too much,
you can become a bit disinhibited.
and our behaviour might be, or we might do things that we otherwise wouldn't do.
And that's where understanding the mind-body connection really is quite important
if you're experiencing a lot of psychological symptoms associated with a big night of drinking.
Feeling physically well, it won't completely resolve anxiety,
but it can make you better equipped to tackle some of those racing thoughts and those worries
and those regrets and those feelings.
The first one is to rehydrate, to drink.
Our body is very finely tuned and requires a lot of upkeep and will tell you when things are not right.
One of those big things that, you know, I think we think about, but not that often is levels of water in the body.
That's really important for getting alcohol out of your bloodstream, for detoxing your body,
but also diluting the impacts of alcohol in the blood and the impact that will have on your brain.
So drinking a lot of water the day after, we swear by drinking a lot of water the night before,
it's going to make you feel better.
I also have some friends who swear by exercising the next day.
Don't get it, never been a fan, like pretty much bottom of the list of things that I want to do,
but kind of sweating it out and releasing some of that anxiety through exercise and through a healthy
outlet is really amazing. Of course, you can always sleep it off, wait until it's all passed.
That's a good idea. But, you know, if you've got a day, if you've been drinking on a Sunday,
you've got things to do the next day, sometimes it's not possible to stay in bed.
So another solution that I sometimes do is just meditate. Deep, slow breathing can help relax
some of those physiological symptoms, which will also connect with your brain and relieve some of that
anxiety as well. And meditation is so easy to do if you're someone who really suffers from a heightened
nervous system and heightened levels of arousal and rumination the next day. You can do it on your
bed. You can do it lying down. You can do it on the train. But it really does help to just kind
of close your eyes and focus on your thoughts, how you feel physically and emotionally. And don't
try and judge those thoughts or unpack them. Simply just notice them as they come up into your
awareness and move along. There's so many good apps for this. So, so many. Do a Google. The Dare app.
Amazing. Any meditation podcast on Spotify. Excellent. Anything to help relieve the stress in your brain in a
healthy way. Sometimes we might notice that having more alcohol if you're having a bit of a bender
might make you feel good on the moment. But often in the long run, it's really not going to
make you feel that great because as we've talked about, this whole phenomenon of feeling anxious
the day after drinking or after binge drinking is because of the neurotransmitters in your brain
being at an imbalance because your body has undergone physical stress, much like an illness,
and it's trying to do its job and make you feel better.
So it's not worried about whether you're going to, like your brain, that you can't
control your conscious experience cannot control what your brain is doing, you know, beyond your
control. So if you're like, oh, you know, it'd be really great if we just released glutamate at a
slower level so I don't feel anxious or if we, you know, just held off on getting my
neurodrenaline levels back to their normal level for a few days because I got a big work
conference or something like that. Like your body doesn't care. It just wants you to be back at
that equilibrium as fast as possible. So it's about counteracting that impact. That impact. And
and taking care of yourself in other ways by eating a good meal,
rehydrating, exercising, sweating it out, or even meditating to kind
will release some of that tension.
Like I said, if you're someone who has experiences of anxiety,
I definitely do at the moment.
You know, after drinking, I'm always like, oh my God, I just feel so terrible.
I need to talk to my friends about it.
Have I done something silly?
Often I haven't.
It's just because there is a nervous arousal in my body
that's telling me to look out for things that could be a threat.
And I'd say just take it easy on yourself.
Maybe try and stop after the third drink.
Like I said, two to three drinks is that sweet spot.
But I also understand there's a lot of other things that come into our alcohol intake
that isn't just self-control.
You know, there's peer pressure, people buy you drinks,
sometimes you're not noticing what you're drinking.
Sometimes you feel like you need to keep up.
up with others or sometimes you just want to have a really good night. You want to really let loose.
But being aware of what that does to your psychological well-being and your psychological state in the
long term and the morning after is really, really important. Well, thank you so much for listening
into this episode. Like I said, there are so many interactions between alcohol and psychology
and our 20s. I could talk about it for ages.
So if you're interested in hearing some more episodes on the role of alcohol in this important
decade in our lives and how that impacts with our mental well-being, reach out on Instagram,
tell me what you want to hear.
I think peer pressure around drinking is another thing I really want to talk about.
And also binge drinking alcohol as kind of an addictive substance is something that I think I could
tackle a little bit later on.
But it's just so important to be a way.
wherever if you choose to drink like I'm sure a lot of us do. I definitely do. But knowing that even
though it's a socially acceptable drug, it does still impact us, as I'm sure we've all figured out
by now, is really, really crucial. So I hope that you have enjoyed this episode. As always,
if you feel cool to do so, if you learned something today, if you think someone else might benefit
from this episode or another one of the ones that I've made, please leave us a review on either
Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
Chuck us a follow on Instagram.
It really helps the podcast to grow.
And it just makes me feel amazing.
Lessens my anxiety when I see that people are enjoying this content and the work I put into it.
So thank you for those who have already done.
So I really appreciate it.
And yes, thank you so much for tuning in.
I will be back next week with another episode.
I think we're going to have a guest on.
So things to look forward to and have a lovely week.
Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games.
This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing.
How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with.
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Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your
podcast. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator
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some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.
Listen to 2%. That's TWO% on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
When a group of women discover
they've all dated the same prolific con artist,
they take matters into their own hands.
I vowed, I will be his last target.
He is not going to get away with this.
He's going to get what he deserves.
We always say that, trust your girlfriends.
Listen to the girlfriends.
Trust me, babe, on the IHartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
On The Look Back at it podcast.
From 1979, that was a big moment for me.
84 was big to me.
I'm Sam J.
And I'm Alex English.
Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it.
With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.
Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.
84 was a wild year.
It was a wild year.
I don't think there's a more important year for black people.
Listen to Look Back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
This is an IHeart podcast.
Guaranteed human.
