The Psychology of your 20s - 424. How to ACTUALLY change your bad habits ft. Harvard Behavioural Scientist, Julia Dhar

Episode Date: June 1, 2026

We all have something about our behaviour or our lives we really want to change. But every time we go to try, we find we lose motivation very quickly and end up back where we started with the behaviour still in tact. Whether it's quitting smoking, exercising more, wanting to eat healthier, sleep better, stop gossiping, be a better partner; bad habits usually all have the same psychology.  In today's episode we invited on Harvard-trained behavioural scientist & BCG Managing Director, Julia Dhar, to give us the step by step guide to changing bad habits. We talk about:  Where bad habits come from?  Why bad habits stick? What's happening in our brain when we can't quit a bad habit? The 3 principles of behaviour change you need to know to change  How to help OTHERS change when they don't want to? Why your approach to failing will determine if you're successful  Plus much more!  Happy listening!  Buy Julia's book here: How Change Really Works Watch her TedTalk here: How to Disagree Productively  Watch on Netflix: HERE Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [e-mail]   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello everybody. I'm Gemma Speg and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology. of our 20s, today's conversation is one that I've been wanting to have for a very long time. Because if there is something, I would say all of us, if not a lot of us struggle with in our 20s, it is this constant cycle of trying to become better, trying to break patterns, trying to stop doing things we know we shouldn't be doing, and just somehow always ending back where we started. whether it is procrastination, whether it is phone addiction, vaping, drinking. I think we've all had a moment.

I've definitely had a moment where I've been like, this is the last time I'm ever doing this. I'm quitting. I'm done. I'm going to become this disciplined, motivated person and it just doesn't work. I don't think the problem is with us, if I'm being honest. I think the problem is that we actually misunderstand the psychology behind why. and how change actually works. So today, we are going to do a deep dive into the science and the psychology behind

changing bad habits, not like a surface level plan. We're going to go beyond discipline. We're going to go beyond the basic advice and really get into it. And we are bringing on a special guest for this episode. She is a Harvard trained behavioral scientist. She specializes in studying how change works. She's a managing director at BCG. She's the founder of the BCG Behavioral Science Lab.

This woman basically spends her entire day systematically breaking down human behavior. She's also done some amazing TED talks, some of which have been viewed over 8 million times. She's written books. She has a new book coming out. She's written for Harvard Business Review, Forbes. There's just so much that she's done. And she is a fellow Australian. Julia Dahl, welcome to the psychology of your 20s.

Gemma, thanks for having me. I'm so excited. Well, okay, I always do this where I just jump into a question. And the first question I need to ask, though, is who are you? Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I know I did, like, the resume rundown, but in your own words, who are you? Well, you know exactly where I'm from now, and now so do your viewers and listeners. I grew up in Australia.

And one of the important things to know about me is after I was born in Byron Bay and then moved to Canberra, I became a debater. I was a debate kid. And so you might know this, but for anyone who doesn't think about competitive debate as we have a big topic or a big question on the table. There are two sides to the issue. One team talks for it. One team speaks against it.

And you go back and forth, exchanging these ideas. And I share that as a starting point to say, that's where I became, I think, that was the first moment where I said, oh, different people are different. Like often people believe really profoundly different things or behave totally differently in response to the same information. And I think that starting point in new, lots of classrooms in Australia, actually got me thinking about who are we really as people? Like, what do we want, what do we want to be?

That's so interesting. And so like from when you were a teenager, you were like, human behavior is just so fascinating to me. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And so one of the ways we say it is different people are different. But another way to say it is other people are so weird. Yeah.

Everyone else is so strange. And the more you say, it might be quite interesting, it might be quite helpful to start to understand them, which when I went to university and then eventually came to the United States to go to graduate school, I was scratching over and over again at this question of what is with other people. Yeah. And of course, people who are saying to themselves, what is with other people, there's usually something else going on there. What they really mean is, what's the deal with me? Who am I? What do I really want? And I think that was the case for me. Oh my God, really? Yeah. Did you, so you went to the University of Sydney? I sure did. Which is where I recently lived and have a fond place in my heart. What did you study at you, Sid? You studied economics and social science. The same as me. And I wrote my thesis, my undergraduate thesis on the economics of the luxury fashion industry. Like why do people buy? Why do people get attached emotionally to some brands and not others? And

that feel really, really meaningful to me at the time. Yeah. You look surprised. No, I'm just like that. You've set me off. Let's do it. Oh, no. I was like, oh, I could just go on like such a tangent of like asking you about this because

we've just done like all these episodes on like the psychology of personal style and microtrends. And I've been reading so much about fashion psychology recently. Do you know about enclosed cognition? I do. I promise to make this a small tangent. Okay. I do. But you have to tell everybody else about about it.

We've talked about it on a recent episode, basically how what you wear actually influences. your emotions. Exactly right. Includes cognition is one of these tiny psychological concepts, and the best way to understand it is what you wear influences how you think. So not just what do other people think about you, but how you think. And so one way to think about it is perhaps if I'm wearing a very formal suits that might lead me to be more structured in my thinking, for example, or more rigorous. If I'm dressed really casually, perhaps that makes me more creative, more open, more expansive. Did it change where you decided to wear?

Well, I'm actually looking at our outfits and people who are watching on Netflix we'll see we're basically wearing a version of the exact same outfit. It is true. I thought that did it. I saw you walk in and I was like, great choices. But I'm like, that's so interesting because obviously we're set, we've like emotionally set up for the same conversation. Oh, which is nice.

Narching. I love that. I'm like, we've got a nice, a nice crisp kind of nice white top, but not like overly formal. A nice slacks situation, but like comfy. and then cute. Creative shoes. Literally creative fun shoes. Oh, we're ready to do this.

Oh my gosh. Wait, can I ask you one more question about your thesis that you did? Please. What was like the most, the thing that when you found out or when you discovered, you just couldn't stop telling people about why people buy luxury or why we make certain fashion or purchasing choices? I think the thing is that people who choose to buy luxury goods or to buy one brand over another, it's not because they feel a connection with the brand.

It is because having it, owning the thing, is a part of who they are. And one of the ways you know that is, and people in your life who, for example, might buy luxury fashion and never wear it. But they have it and they know that they have it. And so it feels very much like a part of their identity, part of who they are as a person or how they relate to one I'll know how they relate to the world. Oh my goodness. See, I have a friend who's like this who, and she bought this, like, beautiful bag for herself last year. She works so hard. And I asked

her the other day, I was like, why do you never bring that out? She's like, what's a bit too flashy? But I feel like it for her, it was like, well, I've gotten to this point where this is like a marker of success for women or the people that I know. So I have to participate, but then it also feels like contrary to my deeper identity. This is so fascinating. It's not quite me. That's so interesting. Also, I'm like thinking. about what I'm wearing, then I need to move on. Like, you can see, and I'm wearing like all one brand. And when you were saying that, I was like, oh my gosh, I just thought I really liked that. I'm that person. Yeah, but maybe it's what they represent. Could be. Wow. Okay. Let's actually

talk about what we, what I've brought you to discuss. What we came here to talk about. Which is not, which we need to bring you back to just talk about fashion psychology. Anytime. Let's talk about bad habits and where bad habits come from. A good starting point might be to say there are no bad habits, or perhaps it's not very helpful to call something a bad habit and just condemn it right off the bat. Of course, there are habits that are more or less destructive or damaging to our health or our relationships or the way we show up in the world. But even then just saying this is a bad habit is maybe not very helpful.

But what we can assume when someone says, I have a bad habit, beeping, not eating as healthily as I would like, not exercising as often as I might want to. What they mean is there is something about the way I operate that I want to change. So where do they come from? One of my favorite things about the work that I do is I spend a lot of time talking to people about changing, so not just change, but how do I get better at changing? And part of it is we're not totally sure psychologically about change. People have really different reactions when you say, do you want to change?

If you say to someone, would you like to be better? Almost everyone says, yeah, that's what I'm here to do. I'm trying to be better. So what's preventing us? What's getting in the way of us actually being better? There are basically three things. And they are environmental, tactical, and relational. So an environmental cause of a bad habit might be something really.

basic. Like, I live very far away from a place where I could safely exercise. I don't have good quality access to healthy food that's affordable. A relational one might be I have a set of friends who, when I go out with them, the night kind of spins out of control. Very good example of a relational one. And a tactical one might be, I just haven't set myself up in quite the right way. And so Katie Milkman at Warden, the University of Pennsylvania, has a great set of research on how do we create the tactical conditions for us to be healthier, be better versions of ourselves. And the most basic version of it is, do I put my gym shoes, do I put my trainers by the door before I go to bed at night? So then when I wake up, it's like, whoa, my sneakers are right there. I don't have to look around for all of the clothes, shoes I need in order to go and exercise.

So I've created the right tactics for that to happen. Where someone has a habit that they are seeking to change, part of it is saying, like, let's diagnose what's really going wrong here. Have I got an environmental gap? Do I have a relational gap or a set of relationships that are maybe taking me to places that I don't necessarily want to go? Or do I just not have the right tactics? I want to read more, but I never have a book handy.

I want to exercise more, but it seems like my clothes. are always in the laundry. These are things we can change relatively quickly. I love this way of thinking about it. When does it become a motivational problem? And when does it become maybe something bigger than all those things that like environment, tactics, you know, people can't change? I think one of the really dangerous things that can come from spending a lot of time thinking about your own psychology is assuming that anytime you don't live up to your own expectations, that's a problem of discipline or motivation. I'm just not disciplined enough. I'm too lazy to be able to do the thing that I want to do. And if instead you said to yourself,

look, discipline and motivation, these are really finite. Psychologists would say they're cognitively very expensive to maintain. It takes a lot of effort to keep us. To keep us. goals and objectives at the very front of our mind. And so if we can push ourselves a little bit beyond that and instead say what we should actually be trying to build all of the time is self-efficacy. And I continue to think that self-efficacy is just one of the most underloved concepts in all of psychology. And you, of course, know this, but if anyone needed a quick definition, self-efficacy is basically your belief in your own capabilities, that if an obstacle comes up, your level of confidence that you will figure out a way around it that you already have

or could quickly acquire the resources and to solve it. Are you a Ted Lassau viewer? Are you my favorite person? Yes, of course I am a Ted Lassow viewer. I have a multi-watch viewer. Have you watched? Wait, sorry, no. Yes, talk to me about Ted Lassau.

So in the very first season of Ted Lassau, there's a great line where Rebecca says to Ted, do you believe in ghosts, Ted? And he says, you know, I do. But most of all, I just want them to believe in themselves. And I think that's what self-efficacy is. It's people believing in themselves, but also being surrounded by people who want them to believe in themselves. And so if instead of saying, oh, I'm too lazy, I'm not disciplined enough, you can say,

do I actually have the self-ethicacy that I need? And you can also increase your own self-ethicacy just by thinking about it. The example I always think of with self-efficacy is somebody who's trying to quit drinking, right? And if you go into the pub or you go into the bar and you already are thinking, well, if I want to have a drink, I can't say no. Or like, will I be able to say no? Will I be able to not do that? Will I be able to cope with not drinking tonight? and you don't have any backup plan, you have no belief that you'll be able to, like, you've

kind of already lost. And that's the same with any kind of behavioral change, right? If you already are counting yourself out, if you're already like letting kind of doubt seep in, I think that shows that like self-efficacy kind of needs strengthening. It needs a boost. And you've, as soon as you've started this negotiation with yourself, exactly, perhaps I will just have one or I'll wait for someone to ask me, you're not taking a second to remind yourself, you know, I've done a lot of difficult things before. I have overcome a lot of obstacles before. And if I can spend a moment bringing those to the forefront of my mind,

perhaps even writing them down or talking to someone about them, both of which we know make a really big difference in your goal attainment, even if I can just remind myself mentally, I've overcome very difficult things before. Our chance of success goes way up. I love that. We talk about that a lot of like, I think you actually talk about it in your book of like setting, was it like an early win?

Exactly. And the idea that you can, in very positive ways, trick yourself into change, is extremely compelling to me. And a couple of really easy tricks. One is just reminding yourself of hard things that you have done before. Or, for example, we're thinking about how might exercise much more regularly. Let's say that you have got, you're still in your home and you've got as far as putting your shoes on, even just saying to yourself, well, I'm 20% of the way there now. Like, I've got my shoes on.

I've got a podcast queued up. I'm about to walk out the door. And basically, more or less done. We call that the endowed progress effect. You have an amount of progress that you've already achieved. All of these actually are just the tiniest of little nudges that move you towards becoming the person you want to be. Yeah, I love these.

I really want to talk about those in a second, a little bit more. But something that I've obviously skipped over is why do we even end up in these places? Why do we end up with a habit that is making us unhappy and making us suffer? Whether that is like, why do I end up in the habit of being with people who aren't nice to me, even though I know the outcome? Why do I end up in the habit of drinking too much even though I know I feel bad or, you know, not committing to things even though I know that they're going to make me feel better? Can you kind of explain how we end up at this point where we know we need behavioral change,

but now we're struggling to do it. And then you get by yourself for a second and you say, what is wrong with me? Yeah, exactly. And then you kind of ask yourself, what is wrong with me? And you say, well, I don't actually don't really know. Like, I don't have good explanations, but I know I don't want to be and where I am.

So we have some good thoughts about why it might be the case. A really important one is identity salience. So we all wear so many hats, so many versions of ourselves. we are different at work than we are at home. We're different with some friends than we are others. And you can think about these as not totally different people, but they're different versions of Julia, different versions of Gemma that people experience.

And that's normal. It can be really healthy. But often when we find ourselves in a situation or a relationship or an environment or a job, by the way, that we don't want to be in, it is because there is some part of our identity that that is, really important to us, even if we haven't properly excavated or understood it. Like, if I became single, I don't know who I would be, for example. Or I have only ever had this job. So it is impossible for me to imagine having another one. So I can't quit. So I stay trapped in a job that I

know makes me unhappy, for example. And so really doing two things. One is press yourself. So what's the part of my identity that is really coming to the forefront here, including I'm part of this friend group. And if, for example, I didn't go out with this friend group on a certain night, maybe there would never be my friends again. And then I would never have any more friends for the rest of my life. So one is pressed, like, what's the part of our identity that we're really protecting?

And how true is that? Is it possible that I could not be happy as a single person? Is it possible that there's any other job in the universe that might be meaningful or satisfying to me? And then the second is actually to look back a little bit. We call this in psychology the end of history illusion. Daniel Gilbert and others at Harvard University pioneered this, which is it's difficult for us to imagine that we will change a lot in the future for most of us. We think this is a finished product.

But if you ask us to look back, especially earlier in our lives, you say, well, I'm 26 now, if I look back until I, to the time when I was 16 and ask myself, am I different? You say, oh my gosh, I'm basically a different person in so many ways. And so I can also, it's actually likely that I'll be very different in the future. And so being able to do a little bit of that prospection and imagine that future Julia could be a totally different person. happy in a totally different set of circumstances and that by making some different choices now, we could actually be doing something very kind for that future version of ourselves, even if it's hard to do it for the present version of ourselves.

Yeah, I love thinking that way, actually. I think about that a lot where I'm just like, wow, isn't it amazing that the time's going to pass anyways? And in one year, like a year in your 20s is like five years everywhere else. I do, I fully believe that. so much can change. I love what you said, though, by the way, which is the time is going to pass anyway. That's true. The time is going to pass anyway. Someone is going to get this opportunity that you may or may not raise your hand for. There's a set of relationships,

friendship, romantic, professional that are available to you, if you put yourself out there. The time is going to pass anyway. And so you might as well take a chance, take a chance, take a risk and the returns on that risk-taking in your 20s are so much higher than through the rest of your life. Yeah. Or like tomorrow, yeah, you may only have been eating healthy for 24 hours or you may only have not, you know, vaped or smoked for 24 hours, but then in three days it's going to be 72 hours. And then suddenly it's going to be six months. And it's like, well, the time is passing anyways. And like, all you have to do was be present in that moment and not or do the thing that you said you were going to do and you have this whole new life. So they're very interesting.

This is a question I, like, have highlighted on my question list that I really want to ask you. I am sure a lot of us have heard about the magic number that it takes 90 days to break a bad habit. This is a very, like, viral idea. Is that true? No. I don't know exactly how long it takes to break a habit. I feel very confident that the answer is not 90 days most of the time. And we can all.

all think about, and it's a really easy way to disprove this, which is we can all think of examples of a friend or a relative, perhaps ourselves, who one day says I have decided to quit smoking, for example, or quit drinking or take up exercising. And they somehow do, then for the rest of their life, that person doesn't do that thing anymore. And we can equally think about people at the opposite end of the spectrum, who, with a lot of advice with a lot of encouragement, are not able to change or evolve, maybe even with a lot of attempts to break a bad habit. There's good evidence that suggests that to really internalize

a new habit in your mind can take anywhere from between four and about 255 days, which is obviously a really wide spectrum in terms of creating and establishing new neural pathways in your brain so that whatever the behavior is becomes automatic. There are for sure things we can do to make it easier because I could imagine people saying, I'd like it to take four days rather than 256 days. I'm with you. I know, you're like, I'd like the four days. Can I choose that first option?

Do we get to pick how many days and if so, four? I'd like it to take four days. Things you can do to bring yourself closer to four days rather than 256 days. Number one, you can write it down. Number two, you can tell somebody else about. it. So that's clearly articulate your goal. You can make it visible and social to people. And you can shift your environment, shift the context in which you operate to make it less likely that the habit is available or attractive to you as well. So this is the other thing I feel like is the

problem with the 90 day thing. And I wonder if you have the same thought, which is it takes 90 days to break a bad habit. But once you're past that, if you keep the habit for the rest of your life, who's to say it didn't take one day? Then what happens? Do you know what I mean? Exactly. So it's like, it's like, well, if I go back to smoking or whatever on day 100, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't make sense because if you've set the new habit, surely it lasts forever. Like, do you know what I'm saying? I know exactly what you're saying. And it's such a good point because if we think about it for even a second and this is why it's so important, I think, for you to do exactly what you do and help people like really unpack, like the science behind

this psychology. You pause and think about it for a second C. Is that likely? Like, is it likely that for everyone 90 days is the magic number? Of course it's not likely. Is it even a helpful guide? Not really. And instead, what we should be perhaps encouraging people to think about is the idea that instead of saying, I have changed, what I basically is, what I basically is, always doing is changing. Like I'm always evolving and hopefully moving towards something more positive. It's very hard to run away from something negative for the rest of your life. But if we can continue to say, all I'm trying to do is make a set of better and better, kinder and kinder to myself and to others choices, then every single day I get the chance to make the choice again. And hopefully that

feels really positive rather than exhausting to people of, oh, we're going to get up and decide not to smoke again. I'm going to get up and go out and decide how I'm going to show up in this night. But instead, say, let's take you one step at a time. We're always in the process of becoming who we are. I actually think that is such a smart way of thinking about it, which is stop thinking about changing habits as deprivation, but instead as addition. And I think they've done amazing, amazing studies where it is so much easier to, it's so much harder to say, don't eat the marshmallow or don't do the thing than say, but opt into doing something, opt in to like do this activity instead of eating the marshmallow or like think about the

habit or think about behavioral change as something that is like a gift or an addition to your life rather than just like, oh, I have to spend the rest of my life not drinking. I have to spend the rest of my life not eating carbs. So that's a terrible habit example. But like I have to spend the rest of my life depriving myself of something in order to be happy. It's like, or you get to spend the rest of your life. You know, oh, today's a day I get to wake up and like my lungs feel even better. Today's a day that I get to wake up and try a new mocktail.

Today's the day I get to wake up and like really nourish my body in like a way that feels so fruitful. I feel like that's such a good behavioral shift. And that's what I'm hearing you kind of say, right? I like the idea of having a inner debate with yourself. but the really positive form of the question is, like, what's in it for me? Like, what's in it for me? Why would I even do this? And the more you can start to say to yourself, oh, like, I know what's in it for me.

And it is all those examples that you just gave and probably many more for people. You get to remind yourself that there are benefits that are coming. Even better is if you can remind yourself of benefits that are here already. And I've saved money. I got to have a conversation with someone that I'm trying to repair a relationship with, for example. I tried a workout dance class and fell down, but I also fell down in front of a lot of people and I did not die of embarrassment.

Like I have learned something new and positive about myself. So there are not only benefits that are coming in the future, which is good but still hard for us to imagine, but I'm getting benefits right now. I love that. What's in it for me? what's in it for me? Like if you want to change your behavior, you'd be like, what am I going to gain tomorrow? And again, like we were talking about that small win, like setting yourself up to

win big or at least small, but it wins something like really, really early on. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart. IR. Radio. Canada's number one streaming app for radio and podcasts, including IHart Pride Canada, your favorite hits and must have party bangers, plus personalized and curated playlists. Like back in the Day Pride. Come together, celebrate love. Take pride with you. Anytime, anywhere.

Just ask your smart speaker to play IHart Pride Canada. Stream us on your phone. Or listen now at iHeartRadio.ca. In the moment, it felt like it was going on forever. I didn't think I was going to live. I was terrified. There was no anything inside those eyes. They turned black.

It scared the hell out of me. That was your first murder case? Yes, sir. Fear to say this was the biggest case of your career? Yes, sir. Rape and murder for a child. Just as bad as it gets. I would think so.

Evil, wake up. I'm the one that saw the murder take place by Krivac and DePippo. Anthony DePippo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grief. Listen to the devil's quarry on the Iheart radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And to hear The Devil's Quarry ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Love for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression.

I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And it's a part of it's because their new star is Javier T. Turrito Hernandez. Everyone sees me as a football player, but before anything else, I'm human. Every single day, I'm still learning how to live with problems, mistakes, relationships, emotions. ever since I was born. And I still have so many questions.

Where do we come from? What happens after death? How do you deal with cancellation? Cristiano or Messi? Do aliens exist? What is love? Real Madrid or Varsa? From every day and ordinary to the deep and extraordinary.

This isn't a normal podcast. Everything here is spontaneous, real and genuine. This podcast is like a deep talk with your closest friends, where vulnerability comes out. Conspiracy theories end up on the table and goals and lessons are shared. This life has an order perfect and everything is good. We are here to connect. We are here to connect.

The Chicharito. Oh, Javier, Ticharro-R-Nandes, and together with Aihar Radio, we're going to make the ordinary, extraordinary. Stay close. It is a carac. Wow. Listen to learning to be human on IHard Radio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is,

getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier. easier than it is. Getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the Civil War. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Lee Boulevard. Get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway. If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes. In Rebel Spirit, season two goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add

something to the Kentucky State House that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit. How do you represent that? They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to just quickly go back to one thing that we, again, I keep, I keep like wanting to pick your brain about all these things. Why does motivation and discipline, but mainly I would say actually, why does motivation fail us so often? And why is it that people who have all the motivation in the world are often the ones who don't always, that aren't always successful? because motivation without both a really good plan, the right support and the right environment

is just too much effort. You are basically constantly pushing against a brick wall. And so it is a way of trapping you in your own good intentions. And that's so unfortunate because people really deserve a chance to take all, of the wisdom from psychology, from behavioral science, from neuroscience, and use it to their own advantage. And if we just say to people, oh, I think you need a little bit more motivation, it's like saying to people don't get defensive. It's going to produce the exact opposite of the behavior that you hope it will. And so when you feel that sense of motivation for yourself,

because it's not, motivation is not bad. It's just not enough. What can you do with it? Instead of saying, okay, well, today, it's the 1st of January. I feel very motivated. I'm going to go out and run 15 miles and then I will eat a salad. And then I will get eight hours of very good quality sleep. A really good thing that you could do instead is I'm going to take that motivation and use

it to create a plan. I'm going to use it to find a buddy to support me in what I am doing. doing, I'm going to use that motivation to actually imagine what it's going to feel like in a week when I'm back at work and extremely busy and make a plan for that version of Julia rather than today's version of Julia. So can motivation be a fuel for people to change? Of course, yes. Does it last a very long time? No, it doesn't. And when it meets other obstacles, it is very often not enough in the face of those obstacles. And it is really, really unhelpful when we judge ourselves or judge other people for not having

enough motivation, not having enough willpower. It wasn't ever likely that they were going to be successful on motivation and willpower alone. I think about this all the time whenever, and this is a total like curveball to throw you, but we'll do the detour, come back. I think about this all the time when I see people, like, criticize people who are overweight on the internet, and they're like, just have some willpower, just have some discipline. And I'm like, that is honestly so ridiculous to think that that is enough and that that that was ever enough for you to change or ever enough for anybody.

Like the way that our environment, our childhood environments are set up, the way that our physical environments are set up, the way that modern society is set up means that it is more likely than not that you will not change your behaviour because of how exhausting it is to go against all your history, all like the stresses of modern life, all the coping skills that you have to change. So I love that you're saying, like, that's motivation and willpower, like, is not enough for anybody. And if for somebody to say that it was meant that there were probably other things going on, the tactile things, the relational things, the environmental things that are like also shifting at the same time. It's also such a good example. And if we can extend the detour,

even a little further. What you ask about is such a good example of what we call in behavioral economics but also now in psychology the fundamental attribution error. And basically, I experience myself as a very complicated, unique, special, fully realized human being. I'm a complete person to myself. And even people that we know very well, very intimately, remain sort of strangers to us in all kinds of ways. We can not only never properly understand them, but they're never quite as complete as we are as a person. And so a consequence of that is we are extremely quick to both blame.

It was probably their fault and to judge. There is something wrong with them, other people in ways that we might not for ourselves. It's a really good example is if someone is late to a meeting or to an event, especially if we're inclined to judge them, we might say, oh, of course, they're very disorganized. This always happens. They're not respectful. And we've jumped really fast to, like, they're not a good person, they don't value our relationships.

Whereas, of course, in 100% of the situations where I have been late, there's obviously a very good explanation, usually outside of myself, the train was delayed, somewhere. what else really needed me, perhaps I was coming from a very important meeting. And so that fundamental attribution error, the tendency to externalize our own mistakes and to blame other people for their limitations is really dangerous because it not only prevents us taking a hard look at ourselves, but also prevents us being more forgiving, more welcoming, maybe even more helpful to that person. I do this all the time. I'm hearing you say that. I'm hearing you say that. I was like, oh, I did this this morning.

There was like somebody walking in front of me. And I was like, that person is so rude. I was like, can't they see that this is a busy sidewalk? And then I literally did it like five minutes later. And I was like, well, that's different because, you know, and then I was like, no, it's not different. Like, I had to pause in the middle of the street to text someone. My thing was, I was lost. I was like, I don't know where I was going.

I was like, well, this person probably didn't either. I know it's so interesting. Like, basically what we're just talking about is like empathy and like not judging other people's progress or. what they may or may not have, like, in their toolkit. I always think the first law of behavioral science is people are people, and so are you. And so you can be forgiving of other people while having very high expectations for yourself. And so indeed, people are people. And so are you.

Yeah, I love that. Okay, let's talk about how we're going to change our behavior. You've been giving us so many little snippets, like little treats along the way. But I'm like, let's get a little bit of a guide down from an excellent. expert, what are, in your mind, some of the most scientifically successful ways to change behavior on an individual level, in a family level, in a relationship level, maybe even an organizational level? How do we make people, including ourselves, change? First, get specific, and second, get honest. So let's be really practical about it. And let's just talk about

individuals for a second. Yeah. And then we can talk about much more enjoyable than trying to change yourself, trying to change other people. the best, let's say do that instead. But let's for the moment assume we have to make a sincere effort to change ourselves. Get specific. What is the behavior that you are trying to change? And so, for example, quit drinking is not a behavior. That's just a loose goal or it's a kind of category of activities that you don't want to be doing anymore.

deciding not to have a second drink, for example, on any given night, we're starting to get specific on what you are seeking to do. It's very clearly measurable. So get specific. We've already talked a few times about the idea that writing a goal down, even if you never show it to people, is very helpful. It seems to trip some kind of cognitive switch for us. Asking people for help is another thing that you can do that is really powerful and useful. And so that might be, I have someone that I could text when I am thinking about, to extend this example, having a second drink that night. The other thing that you can do, and this works really well in organizations and teams as well, is like let's start to imagine what that future would be like if I make decide or I make this

choice that I'm trying to move away from. If it has to have a lot of. If it has to be like, happens, if I want to have a second drink, if I think about calling that person who I actually have a pretty destructive relationship with, then what should I do? If I have this feeling, because feelings often precede our thoughts, then what am I likely to think? Like, I should call that person? And what should I do instead? Really important is that we have some kind of replacement for the behavior. So a good example in a pub would be, well, what would I order instead?

That might be a really good moment to know what my alternative order is. If you've never contemplated what you would order other than a second drink, it might be good to have a plan going in before you do so. And then the next thing to do is to say, well, once I've accomplished a really small version

of that goal, we've talked about, it could be 24 hours of successfully. achieving the goal. It could be 36, it could be a month. Then what happens? What reward might I give myself? One of the funny things that happens is that the reward is often very motivating to us. We're like seduced by the idea of the reward. But once you get there, you find it wasn't that important to you. Like you didn't want or need the thing that you are going to reward yourself with because the goal itself has become and its own reward. So get specific upfront, get support, including from your own brain about what you're going to do instead, and then have your if-then escape plan.

Yeah, the if-then intentions are so good. I feel like very, who, I feel like James Clea wrote about them a lot in atomic, atomic habits. Atomic habits. And it sounds really basic, but one of the things that I love about it is it's not just, oh, there's a different plan, but that idea that we're kind of constantly on branching pathways and you say to yourself, oh, like, there are always a different set of choices. Like, there were always, this was always a choose-your-own adventure. I could always have made different choices. And this is just one of those moments where I can do that. I feel like this is what we keep coming back to is like you're in charge of your reality. Prove it to yourself that you can be in charge.

Exactly. And that no one cares more than you. No one will care more than you. But I hope the other really liberating thought, and sometimes this comes with time and sometimes you just have the opportunity to learn it is no one cares. And it's a really good version of that, which is you can do whatever you want because most people are just not paying that much attention. Oh, it's the best. Yeah. People are thinking an awful lot about themselves and how they're showing up in that situation and aren't finding whatever you are doing particularly memorable and in the best possible way, perhaps not even that interesting to them. I feel like that is a completely different conversation. But once you realize that, it's like, oh, wow, this whole, so much more about the world is possible to me when I don't have this entire part of my brain thinking about how somebody else is perceiving me when they're not, Like, it's a huge freedom, I think.

So Daniel Kahneman has said, like, nothing is important as you think it is while you are thinking about it. And I think the personal psychology version of that is, I'm just not as interesting as I think I am. Yeah. And that's a little confronting, but hopefully also wildly freeing for people, just not that interesting to other people. Yeah, you can put the spotlight on somebody else for a while. Following this vein of how to change behavior, the vein being the entire episode, But following this specific vein, what happens when you fail? You know, we've talked a lot about how you will try multiple times.

Likely, you likely will. I think I read the statistic that people try on average like 25, 30 times before a behavior sticks, if it ever does. What's the protocol then for when you've noticed that you've slipped, you've fallen, it hasn't gone the way that you wanted it to? Can I just say, I think that was the most important sentence in the whole episode. What happens when you fail? And so many people that I talk to, and I do a lot of work with CEOs or very senior executives,

people much more established in their life and careers, refuse to use the phrase when we fail or when I fail. And we'll only talk about if we fail and are then very quick to say, but of course we won't. We will be in the minority who succeeds. But don't do enough to really push themselves, push the team to say, maybe it will be quite healthy to plan for failure. What happens when we fail? And assuming that we will both lets you in advance, say, well, I'm going to forgive myself first when that happens.

But then I'm going to do two things. The first is I'm going to declare a fresh start. And you might know the fresh start effect, which is that certain periods of time, your birthday, new year, a Monday can be very motivating for us in terms of declaring that now is the beginning of a new habit. We just seem to be a little bit more successful when we have had a fresh start. The thing that I love about this science and psychology is anything can be a fresh start tomorrow, the next hour, the next half hour, the more that you even say to yourself,

I have the opportunity to begin again at any possible moment. And so if, for example, you have not started the day as healthily as you want and you're like, well, today is shot, I might as well eat a whole cake. You could also say 2pm is a fresh start. Nobody cares. There are no rules. Pick a time. Begin with a fresh start.

The second is, instead of talking about what we have to. to do or what the rules or requirements are or what we think other people expect others, it could be really constructive to instead frame our goals in terms of expectations that we have of ourselves. What expectation do I have of myself? So I might have an expectation that I am a person who is able and excited to get up early and exercise. I might have an expectation that I am a person who gives help to other people when I can see that they need it, that I am kind or generous or a patient. And you see, all of that is part of saying, here's a set of qualities that I hope I have, that I would like to see more of in myself, and I'm going to look

for opportunities to practice them. I'm going to look for opportunities to demonstrate that that's consistent with how I would like to see myself. So when we fail, which all of us will, declaring a fresh start and then reminding ourselves what expectations we have of ourselves makes us much more likely to be successful the next time. And I think people think that it's jinxing it or it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it's like, well, wouldn't you rather the prophecy than actually was able to get back on track, like then it just be completely derailed by not having an if-then plan? Yeah, it's almost refusing to think about it is itself kind of a self-fulfill-

prophecy. And I'd say exactly, you can have a prophecy or you can have a plan, but you can't have both of those. And what we know for sure is that the plan path succeeds much more often than the prophecy path. Oh my God, I love that. That's an amazing quote. That is so good. Put it on a t-shirt. I know. I'm like, much. You have the desire to help to make a real difference? The College, the City, you offer the program Dependance and Scenta Mental. Acquare the competences

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They turned black. It scared the hell out of me. That was your first murder case? Yes, sir. Fear to say this was the biggest case of your career? Yes, sir. Rape and murder for a child. She's as bad as it gets.

I would think so. People wake up. I'm the one that saw the murder. placed by crevette and de pippo. Anthony DePippo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said, I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grief. Listen to the devil's quarry on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the devil's quarry ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to

Love for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Everyone is a ton of exciting because their new star is Javier Tichorito Hernandez. Everyone sees me as a football player but before anything else

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or IHard Radio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Mainstream media is full of cruel depictions of the unhoused, stories that shame and blame and paint the unhoused as a monolith. We The Enhouse is the podcast that's changing that. I'm Theo Henderson, creator and host,

and for years I've created a space where the unhouse and their advocates can tell their own stories. In the last few months alone, I've interviewed Unhoused parents, immigrants, mutual aid organizers, veterans, the LGBTQTIA plus community, and the policymakers who make the laws that impact the unhoused existence. We'd be in-hous is a two-time webby and signal award-winning show with many exciting guests on the horizon.

Tune in this week for my interview with Dr. Jill Wichor. A street doctor turned influencer whose work with the unhoused community has made a huge impact online and in her community. Listen to Wey and Howls on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Get into this before we end up wrapping up, how do we handle people who refuse to change? So I know we've spoken a lot about this relational factor. You know, maybe you have parents who refuse to change. You have a partner who refuses to change.

You have friends who are enabling a problem. just as much as you are probably enabling them as well. What do we do? Do we call out their behavior? When do we just decide that maybe we need to just not be in that situation? It's a fine line. Do you have any advice for people who are dealing with that? It is so seductive to think a lot about how other people need to change.

Trust me, I spend my whole life working on change. And the best is the kind where you get to stay exactly the same and other people have to change. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of that out there. And so instead of really, I'm going to say occupying our mental and emotional headspace with the ways that other people need to change, the safest assumption is that you can't change other people. It's not that other people don't change. Of course they do. Can you make someone else change? No.

Generally, you can't. And so what you can do, what you are always in. control of is your response to that person. And understanding why that person is so triggering for you is a really good step to take. Because you can continue to change your relationship, both like the quantity of time that you spend with them, for example, how you spend that time, what you do, or how you react to what they say to you, whether that is advice from a parent. That doesn't make it an obligation to do what they suggested that you do or why someone else's appetite for conflict doesn't have to turn into an argument if you choose to remove yourself

from the situation. However, sometimes we feel like we've told someone to change, suggested that they change, and they still haven't changed. And it's really easy to interpret that as a statement of disrespect from that person's towards you. And I think there's actually a really useful tactic in practice that comes from family therapy, actually, or couples therapy around articulating a need that you might have or a desire that you might have for people to change. It's basically this. It's called a clear and specific request because that is exactly what it is. And so often someone will talk to me about

a person in their life. It could be a person on their team. It could be their boss. It could be a romantic partner or a friend and they'll say, oh, this person, here are like all the things that I think are wrong with them. And I just really think they should completely change. And I will usually say, have you made a clear and specific request? When you are 15 minutes late for our dinners, I interpret that as a sign of disrespect for me and for my time. Do you think it would be possible for you to plan to be five minutes early in the future. Clear and specific request. It's not a trap.

They're free to refuse. They're free to say that isn't practical for me. It's not an abuse of your power and abuse of the relationship, but you've made a clear and specific request. And maybe they can respond to that request. Maybe they can't. But you at least will know that you have done your part. What I know for sure is not successful in changing anyone else's behavior

is complaining about it to a third person. That is the opposite of a successful strategy. It's enjoyable. It's very emotionally satisfying. It unfortunately works 0% of the time. Yeah. And it so often feels like emotional processing, right? Sometimes I think we think that our reaction to their behavior is the problem,

which it probably is, and we need to work through it, but we work through it not with them, and we're like trying to find clarity in somebody who isn't that person. it's very like a roundabout way of like the other person becomes a proxy for what you really should be saying to like the individual. I feel like the most useful question in all of the intergroup relations, interpersonal psychology is have you tried talking to them about it? I know.

Like so often you don't even need the second question. I know. I know, but it's so difficult, isn't it? So often I will say to people, have you tried talking to them about it, especially in a professional setting. And often people will say, well, I was sort of hoping you would talk to them about it. That's why we're having this conversation. And I think you're so right to say, it can be very helpful for you to process to understand your reaction, to actually figure out, is it as a younger person in my life said to me recently, is it an issue or is it an ish them?

That's a more t-shirts are going to be printed. It's coming your way. Is it an issue? or is it it is them? And that conversation can be useful. It's just not going to change the other person's behavior. But if we also have pretty low expectations for other people and their ability to change their behavior, that can actually be pretty empowering for us because it's a reminder, oh, what I can change, what I can control is my own behavior. Yeah.

And often I think that actually is, again, another very, very freeing thing, you know, just being like, okay, cool. So this isn't, this situation isn't making me happy. It's not, you're not responsible for others' emotions and they're not responsible for mine. You know what I mean? I feel like that's a very empowering thing about behavioral change. It's just realizing like nobody's going to come and save me. Nobody's going to come and fix me.

This is completely my obligation and that's terrifying and also incredibly freeing that I don't need to really answer to anybody if I'm like, well, I do, but as in like that I don't, like, I can just take control. Like it's up to me. I can make it the decision that I want to be different and just go and do it. One of the most useful things, maybe the only useful thing we can really do is be self-accountable. One of the most confronting chunks of psychology that I read about is basically the body of literature that says almost no matter how well we know a person or how long we have known a person, it is very difficult to accurately predict someone's feelings or thoughts in response to a situation. So every time you're telling yourself a story that you have to do something because of a,

another person will be so upset or because they are expecting you to do that or because they will think badly of you if you do or don't do something. Actually, just reminding yourself that you might not be as good a reader of people. You might not be, in particular, a very good reader of this person can actually free you up to see a whole different set of choices. Oh, I'm literally I'm just thinking about myself there and being like, yeah, that's totally right. The amount of times I've been like, oh, my friend's totally going to react this way, or my partner is going to react this way. It's like that never, I don't really think I've ever been able to predict it. A fun thing that I really love about it is like there's some emerging research that says in

certain situations, the better you know someone, the worse you are likely to be at predicting their thoughts or feelings in a specific situation, which could be really confronting the world. It suddenly feels very unstable. But I kind of love it as a way of saying that people can still surprise you, that all kinds of things could happen in a relationship that feels extremely stable or extremely concrete, that actually we could continue to have new things happen in this relationship. And that every time I encourage people to do this, go out and look for the unexpected reaction in your close friends, romantic partners, colleagues that you work with. I think it's actually a very fun thing when you say to yourself,

did not expect Gemma to say that. Yeah, there we go. Okay, let's talk about your book. Can we talk about it? I would be delighted. From my bookshelf over yonder. I was going to say, I was going to explain it, but that's not my book. So you have to explain it for me and tell us about it.

Let me start by talking about why we wrote it, which was pretty much the same motivation for all of the work you do, which is a lot of our efforts to change in large organizations, even small teams or if you're a solo entrepreneur are not very successful. We're actually disappointing much more often than we succeed. But there is a science to success as well, which is what we put together in the book, that groups of people can do big things together really well. And from the world of airlines, fashion, food and beverages, from restaurant kitchens and factories, we tell all of these stories about people who have successfully.

experimented with the science of change and brought it into their own lives and into the work that they do. And what we're trying to do is create a bit of a challenge to our kind of very standard model in a lot of workplaces where a change is coming and we basically say to people, shut up and change. And instead, invite people to be part of the conditions where they can change successfully. And it's called How Change Really Works. If you were listening rather than watching. What is the, I don't want to say a fun fact? What is the most interesting thing in that book that you think is the most interesting?

Maybe it's a story, maybe it's a fact. I don't know. It's up to you in the book that people can look forward to more of. The original experiment behind this book was with 7,000 people around the world asking them about their feelings or reactions to change your work. We were trying to figure out the answer to the question, is it true that people just don't like to change? Are people allergic to change?

And the answer is no. When we ask people, how do you feel about a change that is coming? About half the time, people feel quite positive about it. And when we ask them what feelings they have, they say I feel curious, but also anxious. And so we have an openness to change. And also a great deal of uncertainty about it. But I think as soon as you know that about yourself, about other people, you can start to say,

how do I then shift the conversation really quickly from change as an obligation, something you have to do, to that invitation to be better. That is so cool. When is it available? Comes out May 19th, how change really works. There we go. We have one final question for you. We, me.

I always do. Do you do that? When you're like, we, like, we ever, I think that's nice though, isn't it? I don't know. I just, I've been trying to stop doing that. That's my bad habit. Oh, who was, like, in your mind, who are the other, like, we's? Well, I think it's an Australian thing that I do where, I don't know if you're the same

where I think Australians are very much like, oh, you can't take credit for things. So you always say we. It's like, no, it's just I. Do you know what I mean? Like, I do. Yeah. It's true because I think in the United States would be, like, much more natural for something. Yeah.

I, like, have, like, this question. Like I have even, I think especially for Australians, it's if you, if someone has helped you. So for example, you're like, oh, I actually like didn't write the final version of this question. I can't say I have a question. Yeah. This is why I say to people, you need to have American friends. Like all of my like Australian British friends, I was like, we need to get you, everybody should be prescribed an American friend. Because they really, I think, I just have like an ability to really talk about themselves more accurately, even if it like might come off as arrogant, like more accurately than people who are humble.

the time. I think that sense of the personal narrative, manifest destiny, like, where I'm meant to be. But one of the things I really appreciate is the hype squad. I'm excited to cheer for other people as well. Yeah, I know. Tangents. I'm keeping that in. I love a chit-chat. I never get anything done because I'm always doing things like this and chat. I'm talking to people. Anyways, my final question, I want to know. What is one piece of advice that you have for people in their 20s that has nothing to do with what we talked about today. We are always in the middle of the story. No matter what has happened to you, you're at the first day of a job or the last day of the relationship or the really messy, annoying middle

of trying to create a new habit in your life. We are always in the middle of the story. And if you can be curious about how the story unfolds, interested in your own life and the way in which you're a character in other people's life, I think that also frees you up to be the hero of that story and to remind yourself that anything is possible in the rest of the story, no matter what happened in the beginning. And what was the biggest lesson from your 20s? In any given situation, I think there are things to be afraid of and there are things to be curious or excited about. And that's a choice.

You can choose to be afraid. You can choose to be excited. And it feels easier to choose to be afraid. That feels natural, or instinctive, maybe. But choosing to be excited opens up an almost unlimited set of possibilities. Oh, I love that. That's actually such a beautiful way to finish the episode. Oh, perfect.

It ties everything up in a nice, neat boat. Choose to be excited about your change. Choose to be excited about your 20s, about your life. I feel like that's a beautiful theme. Oh, thanks for saying that. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm going to leave a link in the description for your book, which will actually already be out when this episode goes live.

Are you doing a launch party? Are you doing anything fun? Oh, okay. What's the most fun thing that you've seen? someone do, what did you do? For when like a book comes out or something like that. Um, well, I'm a big celebrating person. Good. So like I'm always, if there's an excuse for to get people together, I will always do it. Um, my friends like hired a boat for their book coming out, which was really, really fun. It was actually just so, I think they just wanted to hire

a boat in general. There's a lot of commitment. Like, it's not like I will stop by your book party. It's like you're either here when the boat goes and you are here until the end. And also, like, I'm going to read the book aloud to you. I know they, it will. It's not. It's not. It's It was really like we're kind of in your hands. Yeah. We've got to just kind of do it. But I feel like when this is so random, but a bunch of my friends are now writing books and I always say to people, because not random, they're amazing people.

But I always say like make sure that the day it comes out, you do something really special because it's like a really big moment, but then often it kind of feels kind of flat. So hopefully you've got something fun planned. Oh, I like that. That's it. Have a good mental snapshot moment. We have plenty of things to do. Like we have plenty of media things to do on the night.

19th of May. One thing we're going to do, which I'm excited for, is, have you spent time in New York? Yeah, love. So Barnes & Noble on Fifth Avenue, we are going to do the window display over the holidays, but we are going to go there that day and sign a bunch of copies, which I think is emotionally very meaningful for the authors. It's maybe less meaningful for everyone else, but I feel I'm excited for that. Okay, you've got it all sorted. I feel like, that's going to be a fun mental snapshot. Because when my book came out, I just kind of hung out by my son. No, I know. It's so bad.

And I was like, this huge thing just happened for me. And I was like, so maybe I'll go to the grocery store or my dog. You'd been working on it for a long time as well. So I mean that feeling of like, well, like it's done. Like I'm over it. Yeah, it's like when you get a degree. It's like when you graduate. Like so many things have like the work, work, work, work.

And it's like out. You've got the piece of paper. The books out in the world. Like this thing is the project submitted. Yes. Yeah, I agree with that. No, you have to celebrate it. Yeah, you definitely don't.

One of my favorite chapters in the book is called ending change. Oh. Because we think a lot about the beginning and we never think about the end. Like, okay, this is done. Like, how do we end change really well? There we go. Yeah. Have a party.

Duh. On a boat. That's the answer. That's a solution. Yeah, you can take that chapter out. I just gave it away for free. Well, I will make sure that if you're listening, you know exactly what about Julia's book and

where to see her TED talks and where to see what she is up to. Thank you if you have made it this far. If you are listening on Spotify, leave a comment down below. What is the behavior that you were trying to change? Whatever it is. We are going to be an open book of promises to each other and promises to ourselves. You can of course follow us on Instagram. You can watch episodes on Netflix. You can do all of those things. There are like a million links in the episode description at this stage. So go there, explore. We have a substack. There's lots to be done with the podcast if you want to go even further on this episode or all of our other episodes. But of course, as I say, as we wrap up every single topic, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will

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