The Psychology of your 20s - 434. "I lost my brother at 16 to suicide, it shouldn't have happened" ft. Ben West

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

TW: Discussions of suicide. This week, I'm joined by mental health campaigner Ben West for one of the most moving conversations we've ever had on the show. At 18, Ben lost his brother to suicide. He has taken that experience and decided to change the lives of thousands, if not millions with his 'Reasons to Stay' campaign.  In this episode we discuss: Why grief changes over time  How to find purpose after unimaginable heartbreak The psychology of hope and why strangers can save lives What supporting someone through suicidal thoughts actually looks like Ben's incredible initiative, Reasons to Stay, and the millions of people it's already reached His two personal rules for protecting his own mental health Why healing isn't about 'moving on' but learning to carry what you've lost Watch on Netflix: HERE Preorder Ben's book: HERE  Follow Ben: HERE  If you need help, it is available. You are NEVER alone. Please find some further resources HERE. Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [e-mail]  The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello, everybody. I'm Gemma Spake and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode. Today's episode is a really special one because we are joined by someone whose work has opened up some incredibly important conversations around mental health, grief, masculinity, vulnerability for, if I'm being honest, an entire generation of young people. Today I'm joined by Ben West. You may know him through his advocacy work following the loss of his younger brother.

Since then, he's launched his movement reasons to stay to help guide strangers through difficult times. But beyond that, beyond the public work, Ben is also somebody who is deeply thoughtful. He has an amazing perspective on being human, on friendship, purpose, pain and hope. And we are so excited to have him on. Ben, welcome to the psychology of your 20s. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so excited for this chat. Yeah.

And it took you a second to get here. We're recording it on a day of a crazy tube strike. They have rid. All the transport into London was just, nope, today is not my day. And, you know, it's funny when you work in mental health, you're constantly talking about, like, coping and relieving stress. And then suddenly all the trains are stuck and you're having to, like, practice what you preach and try not to get frazzled by London transport.

I'm here. You came in cool, calm and collected. Inside. I'm like a duck. Yeah, you're just like, ha. Legs are going under the water. Well, this is the thing that I've found since moving to London is I've become very angry. and I have to really kind of rain it in.

Yeah, just the smaller stuff. I'm like, the world is a terrible awful place. I know. And then the weather as well. It's always all comes together. You've got wind, rain, trains are late. Someone spills coffee on you. Yeah, or worse.

Or it's really difficult to try and get out of that funk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like a light is flickering and you're like, I just want to lay down. Yeah. And you know what? I used to be, not to go straight in with the psychology, but I used to be really bad at having that happen and then immediately writing off the day and getting into a bad mood. And it actually came up when I was going through therapy, like that, like bad days would

just take over and become bad days. And it was that, it was that experience that actually I started my first rule I have with myself, which is that if it's a bad day, you have to do something good, right? And so it was something we came up with in therapy, which was like I always just had, So as soon as bad things happen, I just form the mindset that it was a bad day. And so I have this rule where you have to do something good. So that's something simple like talking to a shopkeeper in the shops or texting a friend you haven't spoken to in a while or just doing something good or being happy to see someone. And then as soon as you've done that, you've taken the power away from the bad day. So not to go straight in with psychology, but this is actually very relevant to something that I love it. It's one of my two important rules that I live by. Okay, well, I have two follow-up questions. Number one is what are you going to do today? I haven't decided yet.

I feel like this is quite a good thing to do. Oh, okay. Well, this is work. This can be my... Yeah, no, I think I'm going to an event later, which will be really good. So I think that will be my good thing for today. And that's supporting an amazing charity, and it's going to be such a lovely evening. So I feel like that will be my good thing today.

But even if it's just literally going into the shops and forcing herself to get into shops and then talk, actually talk to the person at the checkout, always makes the day better. Yeah. And what's your second rule? My second rule is because of the nature of my job, and we'll get into this, I talk to a lot of people about some really awful stuff. And so my other rule is that I'm still thinking about a conversation two weeks later. I have to talk to someone about it.

I don't give myself the choice because, you know, some of the conversations I have with people are fairly harrowing. And usually I'm quite good at processing that. But yeah, if I'm still thinking about it, I was thinking about them two weeks later, I have to talk someone about that conversation. And it just takes my choice away. So I know then I'm like, it's been two weeks. I need to text my counsellor.

I need to go and book some time in and talk about this. Yeah. It sort of takes that opportunity to push the can down the road away from me. I used to have this one. I used to do, we are going in. Oh my God. I used to do interviews for the Australian government on child maltreatment. Wow.

And as in like calling people up and being like, you know. tell me about what you've been through. And I was so young, I wish I had that rule. Because my rule was just like if I had a bad call, I'd go and eat a kind of Bueno. Yes. And I think that probably made much, they've got into a really bad habit. Yeah, it's like classic conditioning. You're going to stop wanting those, right?

I was just going to say that even now, like thinking of it yesterday, I had a bad day and I went and got a kind of Bueno. And I was like, oh, we cannot go back down this road again. You're a conditioned to want a kind of Bueno. Yeah, texting counsellor, kind of Bueno. So, let's see. I love a Kinderbano, though. I know, it's so good.

Can you briefly, you know what? I did not even ask you to introduce yourself. That's okay, we've gone straight in. Can you briefly introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about who you are as a person, how people might know you or they don't know you who you are. Yeah, absolutely. So my name's Ben.

I am a mental health campaign. The fact that I'm introducing myself as a mental health campaign is still weird because it's not something I ever thought I'd have to do. Growing up, I didn't know anything about mental health. No one had ever talked to me about mental health. And the first time it really came up in my life was when my mom told me that my little brother, Sam, had been diagnosed with depression. And that was the first time I'd ever really heard what that was. I didn't really know anything more about it. So I never spoke to Sam. And then, very sadly, in January 2018, Sam took his own life and died at the age of 15 years old and I was 17.

And obviously through that experience, I very quickly realized that the significance of what my mum had told me in September and also free speaking to my friends and people at school realized like how many people were affected by this sort of thing. And my plan in life at that moment was to go to university, study engineering and then go to the armed forces and fly helicopters, right? So that was my plan. Very Prince Harry coded. I know very.

And it's not what I'm doing, as you can tell. But I realised very quickly that, you know, what happened to Sam shouldn't have happened. And there were small things that could have been different. And it felt like I had a opportunity to change those small things for other people and pick up this sort of baton that Sam left behind in terms of wanting to create change and do my best. So I'm a mental health campaign and I've been doing this for eight years. people probably if you've heard my name you've probably heard it in association with my project that I launched this year called reasons to stay which I'm sure we'll get into more but essentially it's a suicide prevention project sending letters to people thinking about suicide giving them reasons to stay but you know my work

goes far beyond that the reason I'm dressed so smartly is I've been I work in policy so I do a lot of work with the government around NHS and healthcare for people with mental health and education and mental health So basically mental health is what I live and breathe. It's not something that I ever thought I'd go into, but it's something, you know, it is everything I do. And, you know, every day I think about Sam and what happened to him and my family. And I go to work because we absolutely, I absolutely believe that we can change this system that lets so many people down. And that's what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. That's what I've decided.

This is all I'm going to do. Wow. Yeah, which is a huge thing to say, but I love it is. But you had such pride in your eyes when you said that. Yeah. Can you tell me a bit about Sam and like some of your memories about him and like what kind of, what he was like? Yeah. Oh, Sam was wonderful.

He was very funny. And the sort of humor he had was like, you didn't know quite whether you were allowed to laugh. It was always just like on the edge of something really dark and awful. He had quite a dark sense of humour, but it was just so funny. Even his friends, like at school, they always said he was such a class clown. He'd try and make the whole class laugh. He was very, very talented in art and music. So, like, he was 15 when he was, you know, basically producing the whole film scores on his laptop.

Wow. Loved Hans Zimmer and film and film scores and music and film. he was also like he painted a lot and just the most phenomenal painter. And one of my favorite, yeah, one of my favorite memories back then of us as, because it was me, Sam and another brother, Tom, who's my youngest brother. And we used to just, Sam would do like some art and he'd just bring us in on right at the end to like help with something. And we were absolutely terrible.

I'm so jealous of Sam's talent with art because I can't draw. I can't paint. I would love to be able to paint, but I can't. I struggle so much with it. But he was very, very talented. But I think the big thing with Sam

that means a lot now looking back is he just had, he was like an emotional sponge. He just absorbed all the emotion around him. He was such an empath and he cared so much about other people. And that sense of like social, justice of if someone was being picked on or bullied, he would feel so like powerfully that that was unjust. He'd take a lot of that emotion on, which obviously must have been a lot for him to take on his

shoulders. But he just had this really strong sense of right and wrong. He was felt emotions and he felt other people's emotions really strongly, which, you know, obviously meant that when he was struggling. You felt very passionately about other people, you know, feeling seen as well through their struggles. And that's sort of why I feel like I want to do what I do now is because when he was struggling, he wanted other people to feel understood and for things to be better for them. And he never got the chance to sort of do this. And I know that absolutely if Sam had survived, he would have gone on to become a mental health campaigner. He probably was sitting in this chair talking to you. He would have done a phenomenal job. And I always say to people, I'm like,

unfortunately, you have got the second best option. But I will, I will do my absolutely best to sort of do what I think Sam would want to do. And that is to show up, to tell our story, be vulnerable, be honest, make people feel seen, but also, you know, push for the change that stops people getting support and stops people getting an education. So, yeah, I've tried to be better at art. And I've trying to be better music. But I know that one talent and one, one thing that me and sound absolutely share is that absolute social justice, right and wrong, empathy for, for people that don't deserve to feel the way they do and not have the support that so many people don't have nowadays. I feel like, does your younger brother have that as well? Yeah. We all do. I was going to say,

I feel like that would be a very strong through line from like your parents. Yeah. I, I I definitely think so. And they've, in my parents have obviously reacted in a similar way to say I'm dying in terms of like trying to change. Yeah. Change things and provide support, which a lot of people do when when something awful happens. And it's nice that we're all sort of on the same page of that was so bad that we're going to make sure it never happens again. We're all very aligned on that. I saw this interesting thing from Jack Antonoff.

Do you know who that is? No. Okay, he's a music producer. Not important. But he said that when you're experiencing. in grief is when your purpose becomes the clearest because nothing else matters. And that kind of sounds like that's what's happened to you, you know, through that. Yeah, definitely.

I think there's so many reasons why I do what I do now, but one of them is definitely that it hurts so much that I think pain without a meaning is very difficult to cope with because it feels like what is this all for? I mean, and it hurts so much. It's still, you know, it's still a horrible, horrible thing to have gone through. And it doesn't make it less painful, but it does make that experience feel like it's worth something. And, you know, I get the absolute privilege of hearing from people

who have been, you know, materially changed and helped by work that I've been involved in or contributed to. and I remember a little 17 year old me sat at school with my friends trying to work out what we were going to do to change the world and over time you realise that actually changing the world and creating that much impact in reality happens in really quiet moments with people and if you can stop one person from taking their own life or you get the right support to one person the ripple effect of that over time is absolutely enormous. And so, you know, like I remember just thinking back now to the 17 or me not knowing what I was meant to do or how I was going to turn this awful

experience into something that was good. He would not believe what we've done over the last eight years. It's been the most extraordinary, powerful, meaningful journey. And I can say that now with a smile on my face. Like it has, my story is so sad. had but it's got to a position now where it's a really happy positive journey and that I didn't I didn't believe that was ever possible so that's that's pretty that's pretty is the wrong way no it's yeah I know and it's only sometimes that you actually reflect and go yeah there were you know when sam died I honestly I didn't think anything good would ever happen to me again I don't know how to describe it except that I just thought my life was always going to be great.

Yeah. And I just didn't think anything would be fun or funny or positive. And so it's quite profound to be able to sit here now and say, this is great. I love what I do. I feel joy almost every day. And that's been quite the journey to get there. But it's very meaningful.

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Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And you know what? I'm sure somebody's listening to this right now who's probably in the early stages of grief being like, this is always going to be it. And I think it's just a really nice thing to hear somebody say that. Even people with like a bit of anticipatory grief as well, probably listening being like, oh, like, yeah. Can I actually ask you about that a little bit more? Like I think you explained it very well. But how has your grief changed? Like when you first, I'm guessing, found out through your mom or through. a parent to that first year to now. Like what's been the different things that you've learned throughout the years about loss? Yeah. I mean, losing Sam was not only awful in terms of the grief of losing a brother that you didn't expect, obviously, but also through how he died and suicide. It was incredibly traumatic for me, particularly.

And so actually at the beginning, it's very difficult to determine. like what was grief and what was trauma, trauma response. But I, you know, I was, I was very affected at the beginning. Like, didn't know what was up or down. I felt like I was just stuck in this washing machine that was constantly on different cycles of all over the place, didn't sleep very much. I didn't eat for about four days.

I just was so confused. And my body was, I was like rejecting what I'd gone on. It was like, it's so bad. that you just reject what happened. So the point where, like, I went to school the day after Sam died. Did you really? Yeah. Were your teachers?

Yeah, they were completely shocked to see me. Yeah. What about your friends? Were they? Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure they just thought it because everyone at school had been told that day. Yeah.

They probably thought, like, what is this sick joke? Ben's just, honestly, I got in my car and I went to school and I went in and I went in, and I just ran over to my friends and I was like, hey, how's everyone doing? Like nothing had happened because my brain was just like, nope. This is not, this has not happened. I'm going to do what I'd normally do and just take myself to school. And I lasted about an hour and then I was exhausted. Yeah, the adrenaline and shock just wearing off.

Yeah, but it was like that for a while. And then you slowly learn. And I think the best way I can describe it, and I've described it to other people is that, like, it's a flame, it's like a fire, like a bomb fire, when grief, you're standing so close to it that you can't notice anything but this intense heat that's coming from it. And everyone says time heals. It's not as straightforward as that. But I do think with time, you just get distance from the flame, that fire, so that it's still there and sometimes you notice it, but the heat, the feeling of the intensity of that heat just feels less and less extreme. So it's not the pain,

that makes you notice that this happened, but it's just sort of going into a room. You haven't been into you since he died, or the things would remind you it's there. I think that's the best way I've had to describe. It's just the intensity of those feelings, starts to just get less and less extreme with time. And that's definitely what I felt.

And then I eventually got the courage to seek professional support, which was scary, but amazing. and then dealt with a lot of the trauma that I had not really dealt with and EMDR therapy which I thought was amazing and I managed to do with a lot of that and then you get a position where you know you actually feel like you've got a handle back on things and and you because I think a lot of the time I was maybe in the passenger seat yeah and not really fully in control of what was going on and just sort of going from moment to moment. Actually, interestingly, not to go off on points, but one of the funny experience of

grief that I had, not funny, but like unexpected. A chuckle almost. Was hedonism, like this absolute intense need for fun and like just, I started university in like September, so a few months after Sam died and it was literally just like chasing fun and going out and like trying to just basically block everything out having just hedonistic out there like behavior which I think is so interesting because at the time I thought that I was doing really well yeah because I was having fun and I looked back and I was like I was actually just like chasing thrills trying to escape like feeling on my own or feeling low and that was an interesting that was an interesting observation I did not see in the time so years later I was like whoa I was really unwell when that was what happened.

And probably a lot of drinking. Oh, yeah. And it's also that's just like the, imagine being, well, you don't have to imagine. You're like, how old were you 18 at Fresh's Week? I don't know if you guys call it that. Just being like, oh week, just being like great. I have this gaping emotional wound and I have a gallon of liquor. Yeah.

Seems like I'm- And everyone around you is having a great, and that looks like the normal thing to do. Yeah. But like, wow. When do you think you came out of like the hedonistic? Like, oh, I'm just. going to live while I'm young stage. Do you think it was like after your first year or? I think it was COVID lockdown. So what's that? Three years, two, two and a half three years afterwards.

And when you're forced to not do that anymore. And I was on my own in COVID. So I was in a flat that was about, it's probably not much bigger than the studio. And I had to do 10 days on my own. And oh, that was tough. That was really. Was it just, did you have? I had, I got infected. You got infected. So I was stuck and then on my own. I remember the only person I saw in 10 days was someone pushed batteries for an Xbox controller

through past the door. Were you? We were at uni? Yeah. You were in like a dorm room. In like a little room. And that was, that was intense. And so I thought that whole experience, like, I actually was okay.

I was fine. I like coped. I was okay. but it just made you sort of, it took you away from everything that you usually kept to like make yourself okay. And I was very lucky that I had support through counselling at that time that I was doing virtually. So I was like, you start to go, oh, this sort of thing that I've popped myself up on that's fun.

Oh, it's not there anymore. I'm actually really really not okay. So that was quite an interesting experience for me. Just being forced to stay in my room. And then I left uni. Oh, yeah, because this is not happening. This is actually, now I've stepped out of this. I'm really not very well.

And then I left and sort of started to make some real changes in my life to sort of get back in control. So actually it was like, it was quite a good experience in a way. It sounds like a bit of a circuit breaker. It was, yeah, in a weird way. It wouldn't recommend it was a weird way. But it was like, it was also needed. Yeah. Because you started doing a lot of reflection on how I was living and what I was doing

and not really dealing with anything. And then it was like, hmm, this is an interesting moment of noticing all of that. Yeah. And then like another deeply traumatic moment probably where it's like, great. So my, this life that I'm trying to rebuild is going to be completely ripped apart. And we'll move on to the next thing. Yeah. And it was very confusing as well because I was in the moment of all of the plans I had in my life of what I wanted to do.

I was still sort of doing because it was too late to change my degree or whatever. So I was like still on that plan but realizing more and more that it's not really what I wanted to do. And so there was a whole, it was just very confusing. Very, very confusing. Do you remember like the first time after Sam passed away that you and your family? like we're like together and we're like laughing and we're able to like have a bit of a glimmer. That's a really good question. That's a really good question.

It took a long, a long time to feel normal as a family. You know, so many times you'd go and lay the table and you'd carry like five sets of forks and knives over or five like set places. And that happened so many times to me. And even like, talking about him took a long time to feel normal.

I don't actually remember, I think it might have been Christmas, weirdly, because that's quite difficult time for grief, when you can sort of get a little bit of room. I was also actually, it was probably not. So when I was at school, when Sam died,

I realized very quickly that I wanted to do something positive. And so I organised something called walk to talk, which was basically this 200km walk. that me and my friends were going to do to raise money. And we would invite the whole school. And if people wanted to come and walk the whole thing, they could come. If they wanted to walk one day, they could come and walk with us. And I basically designed it to be fun and colorful and real celebration of talking and mental health,

as opposed to it being like a ceremony. And that was great. Like we had bright pink T-shirts and we were like talking about Sam every day. And it was fun. And my family got involved loads. So I think that was probably a good moment where we could really just sort of, I don't know, feel sort of, feel like the subject of suicide and losing Sam wasn't necessarily this dark, awful thing that we can't go near. It's like, actually, we're all dressed in pink having a good time talking about Sam and talking about something that's positive and getting around that. So that was a really, that was a nice moment.

Where did you guys walk in London? That's 200 kilometers. No, so we walked from where I grew up in Kent, sort of mid-Kent all the way to London, which actually isn't 200 kilometres, but we were. like it was near enough 200 kilometers it was about 170 so we were like let's just add 30 and round it up classic add 30 so it's yeah it was 200 kilometers over 10 days um in September 2018 and it was it was that it was that was the only ever did it to raise a bit of money and then before I went to uni um and that was the walk really that was the event that I went I really want to do this for the rest of my life like I really saw the impact that you can have on other people's lives by having

some of those some of the people that came on that walk you know went to spoke to their family about their things that were going on their life for the first time ever you know to be able to be the one to make someone feel comfortable enough to have those conversations and know how important that is I just yeah you can't not help someone make that step and not want to then keep helping other people make that step and get the right support. So it was really that was the formation for everything that came since. Wow. Well, this is a great segue. It is. Into Reasons to stay. Yeah. Which is, when did you launch this project? January. January. Four months ago, three months ago. That's- Don't. It's just huge. That is amazing. Because it has touched so many lives

so quickly. Do you want to talk about it? I would love to talk about it. Talk me about the idea behind it. So I've worked in this space for eight years. I've spoken to more people that have felt suicidal or looked after someone that's suicidal than I can count. I mean, so many people. And the one thing I've realized with mental health is that unlike other social issues, it's very difficult for the general public to feel like they're practically involved in helping. So with climate change, you can recycle more. You can take public transport or ride a bike.

and you can feel like you're practically involved in the solution. With mental health, unless you're a clinical professional or involved some way clinically, it's very difficult for you to actually help. And I've always thought that it would be good to find a way to connect the millions and millions and millions of people around the world that care about this issue and want to help with the millions or billions of people that need to be cared for. So that's the first point. Then the second point is the human race has a lot of problems, right? And it's difficult to feel good about us sometimes, especially in the world.

It's a bit of a understatement. Yeah, right. But the one thing that I think is absolutely phenomenal about us as a species is that when there is a catastrophe, people that don't know each other will drop everything and run to help. And I think that is so remarkable and amazing. It's this instinct to just help strangers. that we all, most of us have, which I think is just incredible. And I think it's the most amazing thing about being a human being

is that you can feel such deep empathy for someone you don't know. We always say that about elephants and then forget that actually we are, we do the same thing. And so those two things sort of came together and I was like, well, we've got a problem with suicide. We've got a lot of people that want to help. How can you let strangers help in a way that's clinically, safe and that's where reasons to stay came from. So essentially anyone in the world can write a letter

on the site. That then goes to our clinical moderation team. They make sure everything's safe, publish it, and then anyone can go on and read one of these letters and have it delivered to them. And that was the idea. And I'd launched it this year in January on the 21st of January, which is the anniversary of Sam's death because that was my good thing that day. That's a, that's a way's a bad day. So I was like, you know, you need a hefty good thing to get through that day. A major one. But you need a big good thing. A million people will hear about this thing.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I launched that for no reason other than I thought it was a good idea. And I had very little expectation. It was a project that I wanted to work on in behind the scenes and sort of just really love to grow. I thought we'd maybe send 100 letters that week and we sent 33,000. And then by mid-February, we'd sent a million. And as of now, we've sent 3.6 million letters to people in 180 countries in, what's that, just over three months? It's been, we've reached 70 million people on social media with this project.

It's just been like beyond anything I could possibly imagine. And I guess it goes to show that instinct of millions of people. people want to help was absolutely true. And it just, it worked. Oh my God. You guys gave me chills. That is the coolest, coolest story I've probably ever heard on the podcast. Oh, bless you. It's so amazing. It's been pretty incredible to see unfold in front of me. Yeah. And at every moment, particularly in those early days where it was so intense, you know, all the milestones just felt massive. Yeah. The first 100,000 was huge. then it was a million and then it has most people that if you know me will know me for a video

I posted when I when I first heard that it helped someone yeah um and my reaction to what that meant to me um when I found out that someone had you know very literally survived because they written a letter um you know all those moments just were just it was just it was I feel every day I watched it climb to just enormous numbers and it was just, I was pinching myself constantly. What are you going to do for 10 million? I've got no idea, party. 200 km walk. That was the right answer.

10 million. And you know what? It's absolutely mad is that will happen. I was going to say. It will happen this year. I think it will happen soon. Very soon. So it's, you know, it's, which is extraordinary, but it's also just such a nice reminder that, like,

it's so bad what this is what's happening. Yeah. But at the end of the day, like, there are always reasons to stay, but there are always reasons to feel positive about the world. And you don't have to feel suicidal to benefit from reasons to stay the site. I go on that. You read a letter and you feel better about yourself and the world and this human race that we all are a part of. You just cannot go on that website and not feel better about the state of the world and who you are and your part in it. And I just think that's so wonderful just because, you know, I have, I do have this just love of people and what we can do for each other.

And it just is such an amazing. And I had no idea this is going to be like this. I really genuinely put, you know, I put thought into it, but I didn't put this much thought into it. And to see what it's become and see how much it means to people. It's been very, very, very special. Yeah. We got to do. We. 10 million. Well, we'll come back for 10 million. Someone. We need to, the population of the world needs to give you a huge thank you for that. Oh, thank you. Listen, and you're there for heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage.

And breathtaking triumph. In 2026 FIFA World Cup, the knockout stage. Every match, every moment. Listen on TSN radio. Join the globe on the road to the July 19th final. 2026 FIFA World Cup. Stream it all live on TSN Radio. Available on IHeart Radio.

Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Okay, if you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations. with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming.

I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we would have. We all have one of those treasures inside of us.

We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mungesha Together, and I'm back with a new season of the podcast, Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones, and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about. And what it really means to live forever for all of us. I learned about some rad science. I can make a brain for you, and then we can test what draw is the best for your brain, as opposed to his brain. Here's some hard truths.

I would expect Indians to age faster, but I did not expect it to be almost a four to five-year acceleration. And get myself into a world of trouble. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. Make it look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive

How to Live Forever on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. June is Black Music Month, and on the Drink Chams podcast, we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture,

like Sway Lee. Do you realize how legendary you are? I appreciate that. I'd be seeing it, but I'm like, man, I still got like so much more to do. Like Prince, he dropped like 30 albums. We dropped like five right now.

That's the rate we got to be going. Yeah, that's a good attitude. You also hear stories from industry legends and hip-hop pioneers like Fab Five Freddy. I directed when the Nas's early videos. Which one? One love. Wow. Yes.

I literally filmed in his apartment in Queensbridge. His moms were still up in that apartment. Nas was just beginning to take off. His pops used to live near me in Harlem. His dad introduced him to a whole lot of, you know, conscious stuff. And he made a young prodigy. No matter the era, Drink Chams brings you the biggest names, and the most unfiltered conversations.

Listen to Drink Chams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is, getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is, getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America,

there's going to be a politics of remembering the civil war. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Lee Boulevard, Get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway. If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky State House that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence.

We contain spirit. How do you represent that? They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's segue. I imagine, and we were talking about this before we were recording, that sometimes it's hard to talk about mental health all the time. And that you're probably, you know, you're very much the mental health guy online.

You know, you've done this incredible thing. I'm not going to give that up for anything. But in your personal life as well, I'm sure a lot of people are like, oh, this is Ben. If I have a problem, I can go to Ben. Strangers probably think that. Is that hard sometimes? Yeah, it's extremely hard. Yeah.

It's extremely, extremely hard because also I'm in this because I care so much. So it's very difficult not to feel like you have to always talk about it. And look, I'm going to do this for the rest of my life. but it's also really important for me to know when is work and when it's not and with social media especially recently it's been very very difficult to step away from that and have me because at the end of the day mine i'm ben for most of my life i haven't talked about this and i have a whole you know personality that's built on not having to talk about mental health every day and i think sometimes he needs to just enjoy and laugh and you know that

there is lots of positive and fun moments in this journey. There are also lots of incredibly devastating, sad, hard work hours and bad things that happen. And I don't think it's healthy for anyone to be, you know, experiencing that all the time. You know, when reasons to stay went viral, I got 50,000 messages in one day. And it's just like on a level that you, it's just not normal to be, And most of those were incredibly sensitive information about what someone was going through. You know, when I was scrolling through, almost all of them were, this is why this matters to me, which is obviously incredible and so lovely that people feel like they can share it.

But that, just reading that volume of really sometimes quite harrowing stories, like it takes a toll. And so, yeah, it's important for me to do this work. I love it. I'm never, I'm never not going to do it. But it's also, as I've done this more and more, you've got to work out how you do things that are not this. Yeah. And even, and it's funny because I also run. And I made the decision to start like running to raise money for mental health, right?

And so I've done like marathons and ultramarathons to like talk about this. And I've realized, you know, I've realized after this year's, I don't want to do that. I don't think. I want to keep running separate from mental health and not raise money and sort of just literally just do it. it for fun for me because I think I was pouring too much of myself into this. So it's a balancing act. But sometimes you are desperate for a, no offense to this podcast. Sometimes you're desperate for a podcast that's not about mental. Oh, yeah. So you ask me about like, I don't know, what else? What's my other, what would be my mastermind? Oh, we've got questions for you. Oh, brilliant. This is, but I've got

some fun ones. Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure. But you know what I mean? And it must be the same with you sometimes, where it's like obviously it's hugely important, but sometimes it's important to just remember that it's like one part of me. Yeah. And I also have my own mental health, which sometimes you forget. That's the hard part, I think, when people think of you as this person who has it all sorted out since you're talking about it openly and it's like, I'm still really trying to figure it out myself.

I get that a lot when I like, and it was interesting. Like it's, it is not a regular problem to have. No. It's not like, oh, too many people trust me. Yeah. You know, oh, you know, I just, I'm doing too good a job at helping people. But it is, like, I definitely have a similar experience where sometimes I've got to not talk about psychology. And it's hard to, like, sometimes friends will come to you and be like, and you want to be there for them. And that sometimes means being less present online so that you have the, the resources to show up where it really matters. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And it's, it's just about trying to. protect yourself at the end of the day. We're the difficult topic and this goes for, and I'm very lucky, obviously, that I've been doing this a long time, so I know a lot of people that work in a similar area and not just mental health campaigning,

but sort of loads of different areas of social issues, which are all difficult to experience, right, and to work in. So I've sort of learned a lot from them, and we support each other, right, because no one can talk about bad things all the time, Which actually, in fairness is one of the reasons that I wanted to start reasons to stay. Because in my work, you talk a lot about bad things. I do a lot of policy work.

I do a lot of work with data and with mental health in parliament. And you're never talking about it because things are going well. That's a very good point. And I think for me, I'm not like that. I'm always been a glass half full fun. I like fun. I like optimism. And so I, reason to stay came about because I was desperate to do something fun and positive and like something that's a good thing to talk about. And reason state is such a good thing to talk about. So it's like I, that was part of it as well, which is that I needed a way of doing something that was positive rather than what it was before, which was constantly talking about. You know, for a long time I was working on a campaign that was trying to improve. prove negligence laws. I'm like, negligence is never a conversation that is ever positive. Like, no positive thing ever leads to a negligence conversation. Yeah. So it's like, that's basically

sums up sort of what the conversations I was happening. They were always about death and failure and negligence. And you're like, that is not, that is not particularly upbeat. It's very, very important, but you need, you need the balance. Yeah. And now you found it. I do. And probably like one of the reasons why you, like, you as an optimistic person, like this can only come from the brain of an optimistic person. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's a good point. So it's kind of like you feel like you found the way that,

and just shows how many people were hungering for somebody to be like, can we talk about mental health in a way that isn't? It's hard, right? It's to find a positive spin and not that we should, but just in a way that it's proactive and positive and meaningful. Positive without being invalidating as well. Yeah, perfect way I say it. Because you can be positive about this, but come across like you're just quite making fun of someone or belittling something.

But this is positive in a way of like, it's really awesome that we can do something for each other. And you know what? If you go on there and write a letter, you'll feel good about yourself and you'll feel like you're part of the thing. And it'll be just everything about it. It's just phenomenally positive from every perspective. And that's awesome to be part of it. of. It's just hope. Like that's suchly, I'm like, I was trying to think it's like it's not optimistic. It's not probably. It's just hopeful. Well, that is, at the end of the day, that is the reason to stay, right?

The reason to stay only exists when there's hope. And when there's no hope, then there's no reason to stay. So all we're trying to do in that moment is give someone something, some little tiny little spark of hope to get them through that moment. And that for a lot of people is what that letter represents. And I just think that, you know, I know that in the three and a half million people that have read a letter, I know that so many of them really feel connected to that person that's written a letter. And it's almost like, and I knew this when I was designing actually, that there's was something I wanted people to feel. It's almost like somewhere there is.

Your letter writer, they're real, they're out there. And it's like you've got this guardian angel, this person that you don't know and will never meet, that's just sort of cheering you on. And I just think there's something quite beautiful in that being your reason to stay when everything else in your life is absolute chaos and you've got no hope, you've got that person who's written your letter because they care.

And if you have no other reason to stay, they can be that reason. And I think that is a very, very, very powerful thing to give someone that maybe has nothing or feels like they have nothing. And also just a sense of like, Oh, somebody cares about me. Yeah.

Like, somebody is thinking about me. Yeah. And that's, like, so beautiful. Okay, let's finish up with a couple questions. So we're going to talk about your book in a second. Okay. But firstly, let's talk about some other things that you are beyond mental health. Yeah.

So I've got some rapid-fire questions. Okay, here we go. Before we're going to finish with two final questions. We'll let you have your water. We've been depriving you of that. I feel like I need to prepare for these. Well, you do. They're very important.

Okay. Are you ready? Okay, favourite song at the moment? Or anything by Noah Khan. What's the new album's absolutely fantastic? View Between Villages, that was the old album, wasn't it? But that is probably my favourite. And it's also the tune I put over my huge viral reel,

so it almost feels like a very fitting song for that. Did he see the reel? No, I don't think so. Maybe secretly. I feel like he secretly did. Please, Noah. Noah can't. And also, he does amazing work for mental health.

It does. He's a dream guest for me. Yeah. He's awesome. He's no album's great. If I get his number, I'll send it to you. Oh, do. Yeah. Maybe he's the 10 million celebration. Noah Khan. I love how we're putting it out there. Yeah, a few between villages. Great. Okay. Subway order. Subway order, mebo marinar. Cheese and toasted. Cheese and toast. What kind of bread? Hearted Italian.

Oh, classic. The best. Veg? So, yeah, lettuce, pickles, jalapinos. And then. And weirdly, not ranch. Why has it left me? It's the sort of spicy mayo thing. Chipotle mayo. Weird. I knew it.

Once you're in with your selection, you can't really change, can you? No, I was talking about this is my friend. Yeah, I was thinking that. I was like, it's quite a spicy sandwich as well. It's quite difficult to eat of your not. Yeah. No olives in it, though. No, no, no.

Interesting. Okay, who's your face? This is real hard-healing. Yeah, I like this. Who's your favorite Nepo baby? Wow. Nepo baby. Roman Kemp, he's big up the mental health topic. I know we're trying to get away from mental health, but he does do amazing work. I don't know who that is. Roman Kemp in the UK, Capital Breakfast used to be Capital Breakfast. He does Vodafone adverts. Oh my, okay. Well, I'm not from the UK, so I need to do my research.

Roman Kemp in the UK. Internationally, his dad was Martin Kemp, who's in a band. Well, of course I know who that is, yeah. No clue. What's the band? The band. Oh, now you put me on the quote. I have no idea. Okay.

No offense to Martin Camp. I'm going to go search. It's okay. I'll Wikipedia. Favorite royal family member. Ooh, Prince William. Yeah. Yeah, strong.

Again, like, come on. Big up the mental health. My friend met him. Yeah. And he was, and him and Princess Kate? Princess Kate, is that her name? Yeah, she's princess. Yeah.

And she was like, that's like every, I feel like Australians come to the UK and are like, so I need to meet a royal. They are lovely. Yeah. They do some amazing work. And actually I work quite closely with the Kensington Palace team. And like, obviously he's very committed to like mental health. He really is. Does a really good job.

On like a very serious level. Yeah. And actually, when I've met him previously talking about some of the stuff that we're doing, he's always, he's always quite, in a good way, quite like, it gives you challenge. about stuff that you can do. So it's like he's not just briefed to know a little bit enough to get through a conversation. He really knows his stuff, which I've always thought was a good sign of someone that actually cares rather than just sort of repeating what he was told. Yeah, I really like that.

He really knows his stuff when it comes to mental health. And that's a good lesson for like people like us as well to be like, okay, when we like engage other people, like all the people that we work with higher up as well, like how do we engage them? Like it's actually good to push back a little bit sometimes. Yeah, a bit of challenge is always a good thing. With the right tone, like we're coming alongside and helping trying to understand what you could do more of. Yeah. But yeah, I think he's always been, yeah, good for that.

I love that you are a close, perhaps close friend of Prince William. So now I can take it off my list. No, Prince William, no. And Roman camp. If they're free for the 10 million body. Let's get them on a round table. Come on. Okay.

First job. First job, a bar, in a bar. In a pub? Yeah, in a pub. What was the pub called? Um, oh, that's a really, the milk house. The milk house. See, I thought it was going to be like his lord's head or something.

They have some weird names around here. They do. We love a weird name. I know. And the amount of them that are called like the Queens something. Yeah. The Queen's head. Yeah.

There's some, what's the most popular on? White Hart. Yeah. Yeah. The Queen's wig. The Queens, I don't know. Well, you, well, I wasn't, I'm about to say where you lived. So I'm not going to do that.

But I always found that place funny. Yes. Yeah, I agree. What's your biggest vice? Oh, slow walkers. You know, which is ironic because I was really late to this. Okay, but that's a pet peeve. What's a vice?

Like, what's something that you do that you're like, I shouldn't do that. Oh, from me personally. That's a really good question. Oh, I love Coke Zero. You know, everyone tells you that it's Coke Zero worse than normal Coke? I have tons of Coke zero. You know that, oh, you just get through it. How much do you have to do? It's like your kind of Buono is my Coke zero. Well, my Coke Zero is also my Coke Zero. Oh, really? Yeah, I'm not going. I've, yeah, my doctor was like, you got to stop.

Oh, really? She was like, it's bad for you, really bad for you. I know that's, I'm found, I found myself on forums, not forums at like midnight going, is Coke zero better than normal Coke? Or is it, is it the sugar that's bad? Or is it, is it Aspartame or something? Yeah, phenylin and all these artificial sweetness. Look away. I know. You could be. And coffee, to be fair, I have a lot of coffee, which I know is not very good for you.

I think coffee is not the worst vice. No, a nice little, nice bit. I think sometimes I go a little bit over the top. Because I do a lot of coffee meetings. Do you know when people like, oh, do you want to have coffee? I stack my coffees. So what happens is then you've got like five people you're meeting in the morning and you have a coffee. And I need to be better at going, I'm just going to have.

Hot chocolate. A Coke. I mean, actually, I'll have the throat zero, and it's 9 a.m. Yeah, exactly. Pour it up on the rocks, please. Or a hot chocolate, that's a great idea. But sometimes you feel like, this shouldn't be the case, but sometimes you feel that you can't order a hot chocolate because it's childish.

If I'm meeting like a really, look at me, I'm dressed like this. Imagine if I walked up and I was like, well, have a hot chocolate with marshmallows, please? Double mash, please. Yeah, I'm not sure that's great for my credibility. I think it's honestly better because you're like, I'm confident enough that I'm going to, like, look how I represent my ideals right now. True. because I'm a black Americano guy as well.

So that is a big shift. That's a big coffee. So you couldn't get further from a black Americano. Maybe a mocker. We'll get you somewhere in the middle. Give it a go. Give it a go, Ben. Okay, two more questions.

You already said because Pet peeve was the next question. Slow walkers? Oh, Pet peeve, slow walkers. Yeah, I'm the same. Yeah. And people that walk in groups on small pavement. I live in London, right? We've got very small pavements in some of these places.

And it is people walk very slowly in lines. I don't know why they do that. I have to really hold it in. I do. It's my, I can get cranky. My girlfriend's the same. Really? When we're together walking and that happens, it's tough.

Have you gone by down Regents Canal recently? Yeah. Don't do it. Awful. I know. Soho. Pavements are only one person wide and you've got three people walking. Yeah.

Holding hands. I know. And I've got to somewhere to go. Yeah. And they don't. They just tourists. Yeah. You enjoy.

Yeah. It's great. Yeah. Favorite TV show? Favorite TV show. Oh, you know what? I loved MythBusters. Random one.

But that was so good. That is my childhood. Adam Savage and the other one. With the glasses. Yeah, I know. Is he still alive? No, you know, it was. He died?

No, they're both still alive. It was Grant who died. Oh, God. You know, there was the two and then there was the three. I was very sad. He was quite. actually, I think. It was maybe last year. Do you know they weren't friends?

I know. They didn't get on. They didn't get on. You would never know. No, they were so good. What was your favorite myth? Favorite myth? There was one about a bullet curving. That was quite good when you shot it like that. That was quite good. I mean, all the explosions are great. God, it's a really good question. It's been a long time since I've watched any of them. Mine was that another bullet one was like getting shot underwater.

Oh, that was a good one. Watch this episode get rated R now. Yeah, so true. In Methsters. Myth buses was great. And then you can't go wrong with a bit of Spongebob. That's, I did not think you were going to say that. I thought you had maybe like a Parks and Rec Brooklyn 9-9 guy. No, neither.

I've not watched either of those shows. I'm not really good for TV. My girlfriend's big, like her family is very big on films and TV shows. And I'm sort of, I get outed every time. They're like, oh, have you not seen that? And you should definitely have seen that. When somebody's like, you haven't seen parks and recreation? No.

And you're like, no. That was about to be me, sir. An IHart Radio experience. Weekend gold tickets to Ilsoniq. One, two, three. With Dom Dahlah, Chris Lakin friends, Woolly, Deadmouse, above and beyond, sub-focus, and more.

With flights from Porter Airlines, three nights at Residence in downtown Montreal, and $1,000 cash. Enter for your chance to win at iHeartre Radio.ca. Ilsonique in Montreal, every day you enter, is another chance to win. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotbby.

Okay, if you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges, that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer,

and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us.

We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mungesha Ticuiler, and I'm back with a new season of the podcast Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones, and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about and what it really means to live forever, for all of us.

I learned about some rad science. I can make a brain for you, and then we can test what drive. is the best for your brain, as opposed to his brain. Here's some hard truths. I would expect Indians to age faster, but I did not expect it to be almost a four to five year acceleration. And get myself into a world of trouble. I'd say probably start bone smashing.

That doesn't work. To make it look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, How to Live Forever, on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Keith Giamanka seemed like a mild-mannered suburban dad, but secretly he became someone else,

a master of disguise who went on a crime spree. At the time, did it seem like a crazy idea? It seemed very crazy, but I felt so desperate that I felt it was the quickest, easiest way out. Did you allow yourself to think about how it could go wrong or what that might look like? No. I didn't want to manifest that. I was trying to manifest success. Every family has its secrets.

But what happens when you discover that your dad has been living a double life? That is not the look of an innocent man. This is going to change my life and my family dynamic forever because everything that had existed prior in my reality is now untrue. Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. June is Black Music Month, and on the Drink Chams podcast, we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture, like Sway Lee. Do you realize how legendary you are?

I appreciate that. I'd be seeing it, but I'm like, man, I still got, like so much more to do. Like, Prince, he dropped like 30 albums. We dropped like five right now. Like, that's the rate we got to be going. Yeah, that's a good attitude. You also hear stories from industry legends and hip-hop pioneers like Fabrizzles. Five Freddy.

I directed when the Nas' early videos. Which one? One love. Wow. I literally filmed in his apartment in Queensbridge.

His moms were still up in that apartment. Nas was just beginning to take off. His pops used to live near me in Harlem. His dad introduced him to a whole lot

of, you know, conscious stuff, and he made a young prodigy. No matter the era, Drink Chance brings you the biggest names and the most unfiltered conversations. Listen to Drink Chams

from the Black Effect podcast network on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Okay, let's talk about your book. Man, my book. Look what he has right here. Oh, wow. It's so awesome to see in real life. What's it called for the people who aren't watching?

This is called Reasons 2. It's based on reasons to stay, but this is going to be filled with letters from real people for not just moments where you might need a reason to stay, but I just love the idea of people writing about grief. and anxiety and overthinking and depression. Like, I really want this book to be there for any moment. Whatever you're going through, you can open it and there'll be a letter from a real person, just like with reason to stay, but about a moment in your life.

Wow. And this one is currently completely empty. I was going to say, can you read this one? This is my inspiration to actually get the work done and fill it. But yeah, no, this is sort of, it's lovely to be able to actually see this. But these pages are eventually going to be filled with real people's letters. I just think that's going to be so beautiful.

Like just whatever you're going through, open it to a page and someone's written you a letter about the thing that you're going through. How beautiful. And it just gets to the heart of what reason to stay is about. Yeah. Are you going to write them all? No, these will be other people. Okay.

So there'll be people that have submitted two reasons to stay. Okay. So we're taking basically the best letters from all these different topics and putting them in here. So, no, I'm not writing. I think I'm, the less I write in this, I think the better. I really want this to be exactly with like with reasons to stay where it's strangers. Yeah. Supporting strangers.

And all of them will be real people. Oh my goodness. And so there will be a, there will be a situation where, you know, I'll have, I don't know how many letters we're choosing yet. 100, 150 real people that have really spent time writing. Oh, how special. The less I write in here, the better. because I just want to sort of curate this with people's words. And it's going to be anonymous as well.

So, you know, you've got, again, like reasons to say, you've got these people out there in the world that have sat there and written this because they care. Also in the age of AI. God, a physical book with advice from real people. And we're, you know, very, it's very difficult because, you know, and this is a really good point. because a lot of people that have written letters on reason to stay have been AI.

I may generally, maybe I should not mention this because maybe, but it's funny because AI has learned now what the perfect letter is for reasons to stay. So what's really interesting is you can tell it's from AI because it's all the same. So that Chagipiti has learned through lots and lots, thousands of people asking it this. It gives you the same letter. So although it sounds good, I know that that line. is the same in about 5,000 of, like there's a lot. So it's, and one thing, you know, the reason people turn to AI is because it's a difficult task.

It's really, really hard to know what to say to someone. And that is the point. Like, it should feel hard. It should feel really difficult because in order to write a good letter to someone, you have to connect with something in you that feels that. The only way you can answer the question of, why should you not die, is understanding what you like about life.

And there's something really difficult and special in that question. So, yeah, it's actually a really good point of like, if you're using AI, that defeats the point for you and for them, because it's not about, you know, reasons to stay is not about the words that are written. It's about the person that's written them and why. and if you know with AI it's just words but with a letter that's written by real human being actually the words matter less than the fact that you've spent the time doing it um so yeah no AI no AI no AI no AI in the book yeah yeah there are there are places in the word for AI

letters to people in this space it's just not that's just not it um so yeah it's we're getting very good at working out which one's AI and which ones are I know the first feeling. I get people, yeah, I won't go into it. But I can always tell when like, you're like, you can. That's not a real person. So this will be real people. Yeah. And the reason to say we'll always be real people. Well, we'll leave a link in the description to pre-order it. Something that people should know, pre-orders of books are the most important. Oh, they're so important because they basically drive who stocks you. Exactly. Yeah. So actually it's really important. So pre-order, don't wait for it to come out, although you can if you would like, but you probably should pre-order it.

You can. It's a bit of a wait because we've got to compare the book. Oh, it's all right. That would be a nice surprise. It's a reason to stay. Yeah. Because your book will arrive in the mail. Yeah. Oh, that's so true. That's so true. Okay. Final question. Yes. We ask us of every single guest. What is one piece of advice you have for people in their 20s that has nothing to do with what we spoke about today? Wow. Oh, that's such a good point. I think we have spoken about it but I just am such an advocate for running

for running that sounds so lame because I would be listening to this like three years ago and I'd be like that is just terrible advice I read a book an amazing book called Born to Run if you are

if you wanted to get into running but haven't quite or you never really enjoyed running read that book I don't earn anything from saying that. Who wrote it? Christopher McDougal. He's a running journalist in America and he basically, he's obsessed with the idea that there's lots of tribes around the world that can run ultramarathans. And there's one called, I'm going to mispronounce this, the Tarahumura, Tamahumorah

In Mexico, that basically, they run 100 miles for fun, right? And he basically goes there and they wear, they do these, races in um disused car tires sandals made from old car tires right so it's basically like we've got these like 200 pound foam shoes here and we struggle like 5k and they're they literally doing it in tires um and the whole book

it's not all about them it's basically about how the human being evolved and our evolution and how we used to we are built the way we are our Achilles is the size it is because we are designed to run and be able to recover aerobically on the run. And it's an amazing book because basically, and this sounds a bit like I'm some weird runner now. No, it's right. It basically makes you realize actually running to us is a little bit like flying to a bird. And it's like we're so genetically wired into us to be able to do it. So I loved it.

I read that book and then I decided to sign up for an ultramarathon. And I literally running for me now is everything. And what's amazing as well is that if you do it, if you just show up and put your trainers on and get out of the door, you will see yourself improve, which I think is fantastic in itself. But you will also, it's an amazing thing, which is that it's always just as hard for everyone.

Like whether you've never run before, if you run as hard as you can, that's always as hard. You might run faster, but it always feels as hard. And I don't think there's anything really in life where everyone has the universal experience of how hard it is.

You might do different things, but everyone feels the same. I think that's quite special. So you're not racing anyone. You're only ever improving yourself. It's one of the best things I ever started doing. I love that book. Run.

Don't hurt yourself. Just get out the door. And even if you have to walk and run and walk and run, you just think it's a fantastic sport. Such great advice. I would never have imagined I'd say that to someone ever. This is the thing I think when people get into running, they're like, oh my God, it's so boring.

And then you start doing it. And you're like, I get it. And I think it's because, not to go on if we're wrapping up, but I think it's because at school, running was always a punishment. Like if you talk, if you were talking, you come back to the classical conditioning. If you were talking, like, you'd be told to run around the field or like, it was always a bad thing. And then there was an amazing moment where losing something. Sam, I just went, I'm going to just go for a run to get out of the house. And then I just never stopped doing it.

I just love it. It's the only time my, that in public transport, weirdly, it's the only time my brain's ever quiet. My brain's really quiet on the bus, which I love it. Never thought about that. Yeah. It's where I do my best, like, thinking. On the bus? Yeah.

On the 509. I've had reasons to stay came on a bus. Wow. Yeah, that was a bus journey. I feel like that used to be the shower, but now we listen to music in the show. Yeah, because showers are just music now. Yeah. And getting ready, very high.

And getting very, yeah, very, like, stressful. Bus. There we go. Ride the super loop around London. The super loop? Yeah. I'm not going to do that. No.

I don't want to be on any more public transport in this city ever again. I might have to. I think all the tubes are broken. I think I'm going to be on the bus back. Oh, dang. Well, thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Thanks for joining us on the podcast. Thanks for sharing. We're going to leave links in the description to everything. reasons to stay, the book, you can see what Ben's up to. He's doing some really cool stuff, always, which is so cool, being best buddies with Prince William. So I expect a selfie on there from him soon. But yeah, thank you again. If you have made it this far, leave a little white heart emoji down below, just so that we know that you've listened all the way to the end and that you enjoyed this episode. As always, we also have full episodes on Netflix,

If you want to go and watch this talk or future conversations that we have. I'll also leave links in the description down below. There's always a bunch of stuff to go and explore and go into further down there. So until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101.

It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Open your free I-Heart Radio app. Search Joy 101, and listen now. Joy 101 with Hoda-Kotby is presented by CVS. It just came out. Jeremy, what did you just do?

You just sit yourself up for failure. I've never heard you tell this story. I've never told this story. This must have been tucked deep, deep into Jeremy Lynn, My name is MC Jin. I'm excited to tell you about laugh but not least. I'll be chatting with guests from all walks of life about the power of humor when it comes to facing difficult times.

These will be conversations that remind us all, life is hard, laugh harder. Listen to laugh but not least with MCJN on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Happy pride from the Outspoken Podcast Network. All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original.

It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, Tell Me Something Messy. Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships, and adulting. Listen to High Key for the best pop culture takes, and there are no girls on the internet for all your tech news. For your favorite celebrity key keys, check outlaws with T.S. Madison. Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem. And start your day with intention with waking up with Ryan coming in July. Celebrate Pride with the Outspoken Network. Open your free IHeart Radio app.

Search Pride and listen now. This Black Music Month, The Quest Love Show celebrates the visionaries, shaping culture through sound. From Country Trailblazer Mickey Gaiden to hip-hop icon Fad 5 Freddie, the sonic genius of Thundercat, and the revolutionary voice of Chuck Deere.

I want it loud. So the timing might be off, the sound might be muffled, but what's going to come out of there is something that you can feel. Celebrate Black Music Month with special episodes of the Questlove show. Listen on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Welcome to Sabara Football, the sweet and the spicy on and off the field. I'm Daniela Durand, and this is where we get to know the people behind the game like never before. The pressure, the fame, and everything that happens when the cameras turn off. Enjoy conversations with guests like Barbartra, Ennard, Charlton Escobar, Poyolezine, Federeira, and many more. Listen to Zawara football on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.