The Psychology of your 20s - 5. Let’s Get Friendly with Phoebe - emotional labour, high integrative complexity and boundaries

Episode Date: July 31, 2021

The second instalment of our let’s get friendly episodes with the glorious Phoebe, here to talk about situationships, setting healthy boundaries and climate anxiety.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome back to a new week on the podcast. I hope it's been a fabulous time for all those listening. It's a very special episode. Yay, it is. Because it's part two of my Let's Get Friendly segment, and I have none other than the amazing Phoebe with me on the show. I've got the giggles. You got the giggles already?

I'm excited. I'm really excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Oh, it's a pleasure. Honestly, Phoebe was one of the first people I think I told about doing this. Yeah, it was a move of exams. And you were like,

instead of studying you were creating the artwork for it and I was like yes yeah go jama and also you were a huge inspiration behind it as well no because we would have all these conversations about sadness sadness firstly lots of that but also just like really cool psychological concepts when we used to study at the yeah but to be fair though I have zero knowledge about psychology like at all and so it'd be me being like blab-d-d-b-b-b-b-d and you're like and it's because of this And I'd be like, what? Yeah. She was like a case study for me.

I was doing like, patient one. Patient one. Patient zero. I was doing like abnormal psychology and like social psychology at the time. And I was like, saying I'm abnormal. Oh, come on. Don't crack that with me. Okay.

Okay, we need to. We're already on the tangents. So yeah, I thought I'd invite Phoebe on because she has been such a huge motivator. And a real gem of the past year. Um, do you want to tell them how we need? met? How did we meet? Um, yeah, say it. I'm panicking. Well, we met it. It was through a mutual friend. Yeah, we met through a mutual friend. And I think it, you know, when you meet those sort of people that you have, um, a very, like, you just know that you're on the same page. You just know that your, your lives are

heading in similar directions. You just know that you've got a similar worldview. You've got a similar perspective. Perspective. And yeah, it was just really, you know, you're just really, you're going to. You're refreshing to meet Gemma at that time in time of my life. Yeah, it genuinely was, and start off, we'd go on a little study dates. Yeah, we would. And we always talk about how the reason we get along really well is because we were raised to the same very, very similar values. Our moms are very similar people. Yeah, I don't know about our dads, but I reckon that. No, maybe. I don't know. That's something we can talk about attachment style. Really get into it. Oh, my God. Juicy, juicy. But I remember the first time I met

I remember I met you on FaceTime Oh yes I remember this, yeah, yeah And I was like, I was in a pretty I didn't have many people that I really loved hanging out with And then I met you on your 21st birthday Oh my God, my 21st birthday I'm nearly 22 actually in like a week and a bit

So we've basically been, we've known each other for a year now That's pretty cool Yeah, crazy And I remember meeting you on your birthday And I was in a rotten fucking moon. I think my ex-boyfriend had done something pissed me off. But then the next time we met I was like, I met my like a soulmate, my twin flame. And I was like, we're going to get along. It was. It was very like, and I remember what every time I'd see you, I'd be like, so we're

going to be friends? Yeah. So yeah, let's make this friendship happen. Yeah. It's like, I have this thing where I'm like, I'll meet people and I'm just like them. I like pick them and I'm like, I feel so special. It's like the Bachelorette. You've like, give me a rose. Yeah. You give you a bunch of roses if I could afford it. But I can't.

So yeah, I thought we'd get you on here today just to talk about what's been going on. You have so many valuable lessons from your 20s. Yeah. So 22 now. Nearly. Two years. I know. So exciting.

Two years experience. And we kind of bond over a lot of different things. Highs and lows. Highs and lows. And those are the best people, I think, to talk. to because then you know you can actually really share perspectives and we get pretty deep into it a lot of tic-ttox i do love my tic-ttox yeah so a bit of an issue try crack crack open the wine yes have a glass with us if you've got a bottle of wine it's after 3 p.m

maybe treat yourself treat yourself oh you can hear it can you hear that everyone on the podcast you're listening is really embarrassing i once had to host a um what was it it was I think it was belate for um small okay belatee for my college and um they asked me to host like the day of and they're like oh can like in the breaks between like awards can you do something and I was like sure what I did ASMR in front of my entire college were you drunk partially not actually that drunk and so I did ASM I was like hey guys well welcome to the college and Santa Hall I know should I just do I just docks my

no I don't live there anymore. No you don't live there but you did you did live in I did and I did a smar in front of everyone there oh my God so Phoebe um we have hips of topics we want to talk about um you're an SR oh cheers of course you're an SR when we first met and I was the fateful year of 2020 to be an SR yeah how was your 2020 um I would say it was interesting it was definitely an interesting year end up starting off the year I think you had Kate on the podcast two episodes ago, a few episodes

ago and she said like started off like yes, she's an S-R cool going forward and then obviously COVID hit and it screwed everyone over just a little bit end up going home my mum became a celebrity that was very odd

can we say her name? No we probably shouldn't I mean you can my last name is so common you can probably Google her but look up essay Health Minister. No, no, she's not politician. Chief health officer. Oh, Chief Health Officer.

Sorry, I'm actually at Andrew Bar for something. And so she just got... It was very weird time for me just because it was like, everyone was like, I'm at home with my family for like six months. And I was like, I'm home and my family are working 24-7.

And not just working. Like, they are the most essential workers in South Australia. Yeah, so that was kind of fun. But then second half of the year was, you suddenly you come back from like I lived with my grandma when COVID was on and came back and it was like oh my God being plunged back into college and I just got a very over college yeah very quickly yeah and

you had a lot of it was hard for you because you would you were 21 years old dealing with pastoral concerns of people who were your same age like how did you find that that's a huge you know mental health experience in itself I think it's hard enough being an SR without a COVID year happening because that definitely added I think a lot of like in a college situation we weren't like there was a lot of restrictions we were placed into positions where as leaders of the college we had to enforce rules like we were this sort of like police officer role and that was very unusual and you were not paid for that not paid for it I mean we like didn't pay rent but it was still considering the work you were doing last year yeah yeah I remember mid-sem

Sem 2 last year I just was like I've lost it I've lost it completely but then to be fair I am extremely diplomatic and think that my because I care I'm a nerd I care about my grades a lot and thought that the world was ending because of SR and I didn't have time to study as much as normal and it was all fine it all worked out in the end because everything always does work out in the end and Phoebe is one of these people like

you just you you're almost downgrade your experiences you could be like oh I got hit by a bus but like I only broke my legs I still have a finger it's fine so let me just clear up you did have a fucked year like you're dealing with like many many crises and your own kind of stuff at the same time and that's when we became friends yeah I mean see positive stuff came out of it you were literally like a godsend for me like I haven't really can't for me god we need it we're actually just flirting this is just gonna basically be a date between Gemma and I but you're just you're just like sitting at the table opposite and overhearing it all. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's like a first

date, but like we already know each other. But I'm like asking you all these like, so how was that for you? What are your hobbies? What's your favorite color? Oh, what's yours? Um, it's actually green. Oh, mine's blue. Oh, are they both primary colors? Is green a primary color? No, no green's not. Oh, sorry. You're not allowed to come into the club. But um, yeah, and then how did, would you be happy talking about how the year ended? In what way? in what way? Romantically. Okay.

Because I feel like we need to talk about situation. Yeah, okay. We've got a few things that we're going to discuss just to do some signposting as you do in an essay. We're just... True academic feedback. Yeah, we're going to signpost what we're going to be talking about. One of those things is love life and lack thereof or...

Abundance thereof when it rains, it pours. Is it pouring for your own? now? Maybe. It's a light for a little. But in the sense that like I wouldn't say that I've ever really been in a proper relationship. Yes.

Do you have like any insecurity about that? Would you say or not really? Um. Or do you just not think about it? I mean I was massively judged in like the first few years of college as I think society like societally. Yeah.

Socially. culturally culturally um there's this sort of pressure to like you're either super promiscuous or you're a prude like there's no there's no clear in between and like my dating history is just a lot of like random three month things with people and very few of them have i had like a genuine connection with yeah have you and because i feel like that um that can be pretty hard like a lot of your friends who are in long-term relationships around that time. And you were kind of there. Did you want more from these people?

Or were you happy with the way it was? Some of them, yes. Some of them, no. I don't know. It was the one over, the more recent one at the end of the year. The summer fling. Yeah. Kind of left you a bit scarred, isn't it?

Just a little bit. We should talk about that, like, the psychology of, like, rejection. Well, do you want to tell me about the psychology of a situationhip and why they happen? Should we define a situation? Yeah. Do you want to define it? And then I'll explain. Yeah.

So a situation ship is you are seeing someone, you're dating someone. You don't have a label on it. You've spoken about it. There's no label. Or you might not have spoken about it. There's no label. But you do things that a serious relationship would. Oh, you guys were doing serious.

Like stuff that was more serious than me and my... I don't have COVID. Like the time when you had to take him to the hospital. and like call his dad. Yeah, that was fun. Yeah, just doing things like very, very, like long-term relationship, not just like casual seeing someone. Yeah.

It was something more. Okay, so thanks to Phoebe for explaining what a situation ship is. Okay, I'm going to give like a brief psychological explanation behind, and you can open the chalky. It's really exciting, guys. It's cornflake chocolate. Only you would buy that. Yeah, because cereal is.

the best. Yeah. So a situation ship, I think a really good way to kind of apply, like a good framework to apply is like of social psychology. So naturally, when you think about our instincts as people, it's to breed, it's to survive. It's to, wow, chocolate off across the room. It's to, you know, improve the chances of our gene survival. But it's also to feel socially stable, socially secure and supported.

But I think in the modern day as well, there is this huge, pressure, which comes from a more modern social kind of aspect, to not settle down, to be free, to be young. And it depends on your kind of, yeah, your perspective on dating. So I think the reason why situationships arise is as primarily a cure for social loneliness. And it's a sense that like when you are with this person, you feel seen, you feel heard, you feel supported. You feel like if you're in the wild, you'd have a buddy. And I have this great perspective that I don't think it's great, but I just think that long-term relationships and partnerships aren't actually natural. And I know there is like some definite studies that suggest that some

people have like given an office pseudoscience and pushing a certain perspective, a certain ideology. But I think that we weren't naturally made to live 80 years with someone, you know, when relationships as a concept or partnering or coupling as a concept began, you know, the life expectancy was like 35 years. True. And I think, so I, I think you can be with somebody up until 80. Like I, I, we have, you're much more romantic than I am, I think. Yeah.

I think, I mean, my people and my family have been together for a very, very long times, like since I were 18 and I've been like, oh, screw you for having beautiful, loving relationships. Yeah. But I think I do agree in that sense that people come into your, like, this isn't just for friendships as well as relationships, but people come into your life for like, brief spurts. Yeah, they come into your life for like at a time.

and a place and they stay for a certain amount of time for a reason. Yeah. And I've just been in the situation where a lot of people have stuck around for three months. But I've learned a lot from them. I've learned a lot from those people. You have. And I think that a lot of the time, the reason why we do get into those short-term things is because we crave social intimacy and emotional and physical intimacy,

especially when, or at any age in your life, at any age. And I think as well, I can, you know, because I think, Gemma and I think are very similar on the fact that we've, similar sort of life goals and what we want for ourselves and our career and what we want to do. And I know that, like, for me personally, I know, like, I want to live in New Zealand. I want to move to Darwin. Like, I've got these, these plans. And I know deep down every time I see someone that I'm like, well,

I want to always prioritize doing what I want to do over. Yeah. being in a long-term committed relationship and I'm sure great somebody is eventually going to come in and fit into that spot yeah I hope so yeah I hope so too

but like I don't think like you know at uni the chances of that actually happening is so low and we hear all these stories like oh I met my like life partner when I was at uni my brother if you're watching you're listening

listening no but it's true we hear all these stories and like it just doesn't doesn't happen for everyone. You know, you're also maybe just not ready. You don't know who you are at the time. I think you, since that situation ship has ended, you have discovered so much more about yourself. Oh, absolutely. And I know for a fact that this person would not have been able to fit in with you. Setting boundaries. Let's talk about that in terms of situations. Yeah. But I also want to ask you, what did you learn from that experience at the start of the year? Because you learned a lot. Yeah, I did. I, well, I learned

what it's like to really feel something like I think um but I I I learned that I like like I think it's the boundary setting thing yeah so so prior to that situation ship I had another situation ship yeah like I think I was almost like six months or something who was this with somebody put the number the start of the oh yeah yeah yeah yeah um and I just let that carry on. I just let it just keep just keep happening. I was oh whatever like eventually he'll move on.

Like me or eventually blah blah blah I want to date me but with this situation ship I was very clear I was like right hit the three month mark clearly liked him, clearly told him was like hey had this big chap he was like

oh he said a few random things can we tell them I think we can he said And parents are divorce, can't commit. Can't commit, can't commit, too many options, can't commit, parents are divorce. But if, but if, but if he wanted to date, he'd date me. Great. So anyway, I was like, well, no, you have no, he wanted to stay friends actually.

And I was like, no, there's, there's no access here. If that's, like, I've got to set this boundary. And I'm so glad I have. Yeah, and also, here's a big lesson that I've learned. If they want to date you, they'll date you. They will. They will date you. Like, there is no point.

forcing people, making PowerPoint presentations, like fucking trying to convince them. And changing yourself for somebody as well. That's the biggest loss that you can kind of do. Very proud of you for setting that boundary. I'm proud of myself. And you did the classic, you did the big social media block afterwards as well, didn't you?

I'm a huge fan of that. Like, honestly, huge fan. Huge, huge fan of the old block. I mean, admittedly I did do that one as a mistake. I didn't realize Facebook, like, delete. I love that. Great idea. It was an accident.

Because I didn't realize that when you delete, like, when you block someone at unfriends them, and I didn't quite realize that. Yeah. But I'm a huge fan of it because then I have this theory that if somebody's not directly in your life, they actually don't exist. Oh, Phoebe tells me this all the time. So it's like this, I feel like it's a little bit delusional. She always says to me, like, whenever I'm going through stuff and, you know, I call her, like, 4 a.m.

at my ex-boyfriend's mum's house. I'm like, oh, baby, I did something stupid. She's always like, just block them, like, just stop seeing them because then they don't exist. They genuinely don't. But explain that a little bit more because I feel like, I don't know how to explain it, but like,

it's, I mean, at the end of a day, like, what is, this is going to get so deep. It's going to sound like superficial deep, like, but nothing, like, what is real, you know? And if that person doesn't have access to my life, my everyday sort of emotions and feelings, like, I mean, how many people on the planet, so many of them don't exist to me. Wow, that's actually really a good way of explaining it. I don't know how many of the, like, none of these people are ever going to think of me. I'm never going to think of them.

If somebody's not in my life on the day to day or the weekly or the monthly or I'm keeping up today on social media, they don't exist in my books. They're out of your atmosphere. I actually love that explanation. I'm going to steal that. Yeah. So many people in the world you don't know. Exactly. And they don't exist to you.

They don't. Well, I think... They haven't come into my life yet. And you can choose to kick people out. Exactly. And that's where we get into this boundary discussion. Mm-hmm. Because I had to have one of these recently.

Mm-hmm. Where I was just like, what do you want for me? What do you want for me? Because I'm not going to... I'm just at the stage in my life where I value my... And I know you're the same. We value our independence and our creativity and our own... Success.

Success. I think we're very successful women, Gemma. Yeah, I think we are. We're very successful. That's why I love hanging out with you because every time we talk about our goals and our dreams, you never make me feel bad for saying things that I think are preposterous. And that's credit to my mother for that, like, honestly. Or like, so when you went to, well, I'm getting tangent, but we'll talk about this

because a big time, I think the best kinds of friendships, and I've talked about this with people on the show before are those where every time you see them, you learn more about them. They're full of surprises. every relationship like that is beautiful. True. And I remember this one time you'd just come back from Tenet Creek, which is in the middle of Northern Territories. Yeah. Smack bang. Population 3,000. And I was just amazed because you just had this whole new perspective on your future.

Yeah. And on your life. Do you want to move from situations? Oh, but I want to talk about boundaries. But put a pin in it. We're going to talk about Tenet Creek and Phoebe's amazing philosophies and learning and lessons from that. But boundaries was, I think we both prioritize our own personal growth so much more than we did when we were younger. Oh, absolutely. Or even a few months ago. I think when I was younger, I valued it, but it was in the sense that it was because I thought that's like that was how other people would like me more. Like I wanted to succeed. I remember like from high school, I was very, I was a huge overachiever,

but a huge perfectionist because I had this crippling anxiety of, how I was perceived to other people. I had to be the best at sport. I had to have the best ATAR. I had to be... Oh my God, I was like on the debating team and all of that sort of stuff. And I know.

I did it all. I did the music. I did the horse riding. I did the kayaking. Gardening. Literally everything you could think of because I was like, that's how people are going to like me.

And now I only do things because I'm like, actually I enjoy these things for myself. Fuck yes. That's a huge thing. alone in your 20s and I think like it's that shift from external to internal validation and you realize that your real self is shouldn't be a concept of what others have of you absolutely your real self should be who you firstly it should be close to your actual self and that's like a bit of psychology like your real self should be close to your actual self and that's how you

prevent like feeling disordered and disrupted and distressed um but also it shouldn't be based on what other people want of you and that I like have this amazing spiritual healer friend in Corrumban. And her name's Helena and she's just beautiful. She's remarkable. And she always said that to me, like when I was going through hard times, the only person that gets to create your happiness is yourself.

And that's a huge shift that you've definitely had in recent years. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it probably helped with other things of like, no more contraceptive pill. Oh, yeah. We need to talk about so many things. Okay. Yeah, the pill sucks.

The pill sucks. With both of it, it fucked us both up royally. Like, I was so sad six months ago and then came off it. Now I'm beautiful and my skin's beautiful. Because I went on it for my skin care and now my skin's better and now my mental is better. Anyway, Tangent played you. Let's get back on track. Boundaries.

So both of us have, we're not setting boundaries in this conversation. But both of us have such very, very vivid ideas of our future. If you're not going to fit in with that, what is the point of keeping you around? Yeah, exactly. And if you're not going to fit into the life that I have now, I'm not going to let you lead me on. I'm not going to let you like... And this isn't just in terms of relationships. This is anyone that comes into my life.

Setting boundaries with friendships. I think there comes a point where you really have to sit back and be like, does this person, with my ideal self, with my higher self, actually, would they be in my life? When I picture how my higher self is, am I still going to be sleeping with that guy who like never reciprocates anything? You've got to do like a cost-benefit analysis, but not for the present, but also for the future. Yeah, wow, that's hard. Big Excel spreadsheet you'd need for that. If only I knew how to use Excel.

We'll teach you one day. Surely you can add no words into the chart. Actually, I had a maths test for like my ag course like a week or so ago. And this guy made me an Excel spreadsheet so I didn't have to do the maths. Oh, this guy? Yeah. Anyway, moving on.

I know who this guy is, but he's got to listen. It's off limits. well you know who you are um but i had this recently where you know i was feeling led on by this guy i felt like really insecure and i had a chat with him and i was like okay what is this what do you want for me is this casual because that's what i want but it seems like you don't even want that and that's not going to work with me right now i'm not going to be sitting around waiting for you to message me absolutely not going to work with my life priorities don't have time that's the big thing as well i don't have time yeah i'm working part-time doing full-time union i don't have time i don't have time

I have so many amazing friends who I would, like tonight, I was meant to go on a date, cancelled because I wanted to record it with friends. Like, sorry if you're listening, but that's why. No, my grandma isn't in hospital. I'm drinking wine with my really good friend. Yes. And we're talking about you. And we're on a date now.

Yeah. I'm dating my friends and I'm dating myself. Exactly. Boo-up, baby. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. So situation chips.

Have you covered it? Yeah, we have covered it, I think. And I think there was, there's lots of things to learn from it. But also, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. But set, I think set boundaries with yourself and with other people, including your friendships. Like, once a friendship as well crosses a boundary, don't look back.

Absolutely. If you, like, and how I see it is like, if you wouldn't let your friend treat you like this, don't let someone that you're romantically involved treat you like that either. If you wouldn't let your boss treat you like that even, if you want to make it even more strict if yourself, like maybe you're a bit of a pushover like I am. Yeah, well, it's hard because I have. I think Gemma and I, we're all, we're both, sorry, I'm eating chocolate. We're both, we always say yes to helping people.

That is our downfall. It's a huge downfall. We've gotten ourselves into a lot of trouble doing that, I think. And forgiving people when we shouldn't. There's definitely people you should and it's good to have conversations with them. And sometimes, you know, it's worth being in a wise mind. We do too much. You do too much for other people.

Yeah. And I guess this is kind of also what we want to talk about, doing the emotion. labor for others. Yeah, thanks. That was smooth. Part two. Emotional labor. Yeah, emotional labor and something especially for men,

especially for men. And we'll talk about that when we get back. So I think a big pitfall a lot of women in their 20s fall into is like doing the emotional labor for men and women, but mainly men in their lives. I've had that happen to me so many times. friends, lovers, siblings, it feels weird to say that after lovers. Scratch that, but you know what I mean. Yeah, absolutely.

And how do you kind of see it? Because you brought this up with me. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't say that in my teenage years, so obviously I moved to Canberra when I was 18, I wouldn't say that I did much emotional labour when I was in high school or anything. Yeah. Who could? No, exactly.

And like to preface that, like I would like obviously I grew up with an amazing family, huge privilege to have such like a stable home life and all of that. And so I never really had to do any of this sort of like emotional labor. And then coming to uni and college, I think I've always been like a bit more of my cancer. That's my star sign. I'm a bit emotional. What is the cancer? So emotional? What else?

don't know. I don't really follow astrology. I only follow astrology to like tell that to economic guys. Freddie is a cancer. What? My ex is a cancer. Very gentle. Yeah. Well, because I just see on TikToks of what the cancer is and

but I only keep up to date because I like to go on, like when I go on dates and I'll be like, oh, you study economics and like cryptocurrency. Oh, I like something similar. Astrology. You know, but Pisces and cancers are both water signs. Yeah, well, apparently it's a water sign is that means you're...

Yeah, you're wearing your Neptune jumper at the moment, which is really appropriate for your water side. Yeah, I do like this jumper. And you're a big beach baby, I think, as well. Except I get sun burnt. Oh, but that's okay. Anyway, so emotional labour. And I think when I came to uni, and I grew up, I've got two brothers.

So I have a lot of male friends. Ha ha, ha, pick me girl. No, I'm like, generally I just have a lot of... I just have a lot of male friends. even in high school some of my closest mates have always been guys and I think that's I've got a brother who's really close in age to me

so makes sense I love hoodie no no jokes anyways that I have noticed that as a result particularly when it's my male friends that are single um I don't have a girlfriend or boyfriend

to do it for them I seem to become, not a mum. I wouldn't say I become a mum. I'm definitely not the mum friend. I become sort of this person that is always going to be there to give advice and support. You're a therapist or a big sister. Yeah, like a bit, well, I am the elder sister. That makes probably more sense.

And I become this sort of like person for all my guy friends, not just guy, even female friends, to be honest. But just like. and I'm just giving so much and that was I think when we bonded like last year or whatever it was definitely over that sort of top of house I'm doing too much you were doing you still do too much

and I find this as well like this is kind of inappropriate and if an employer ever listens to this like I'm sure they're probably gonna fire me but I don't know live a little like I used to always say I felt like a psychologist and like a prostitute in one

like I would it was especially with guys that I was like sleeping with where I couldn't quite figure out what they wanted for me. And I remember like I would go over to their rooms and I would just spend like the whole night just like talking them through their childhood trauma, talking them through their parents. Oh my God. Actually. And this falls into the situation ship territory as well. Yeah.

It's like, okay, so I'm really like this takes energy out of me. And that's a big thing to realize when you offer someone so much of your advice, so much of your space, your time, your words. It really takes things away from you and it leaves you mentally exhausted. It does. And I have my incredible friendships of all these people. That's not, yeah, just quickly. We're not to say that, like, please come to us, but also.

I love, I love caring for my friends. Like, I love languages. I'm acts of service is my, I love doing acts of service for other people. And I feel like yours is also words of affirmation. Mm-hmm. Is that it? Yeah. Okay.

Words of affirmation and acts of service. Like, and I do genuinely enjoy doing like, like things for other people, but it definitely does get to a point that when you, when you yourself are struggling, and then, I mean, I've definitely felt that when I've been struggling,

I felt incredibly alone. You wish someone would do what you would do for them? Is that kind of a feeling? Because I think I'm the type of person that will hold it very deep inside, and then I just lose it in my brain. In my brain, and it's usually my family that then has to cop the consequences,

and they're like, but, but, but now you're telling us that all these tiny 10 little things have built up into this. And I'm like, yes. Oh my God, I left it all inside for too long. And now it's all out and you open. Exactly. And that's because I think I like, yeah.

You take on a lot. It's like your mom the other day when we were writing that job application for you. And one of the criteria is like works well under pressure. And then you like told your mom and your mom was like, hell no. Because my mom is the one. Yeah. Love you mom. No.

And that's the thing. Like if you don't have a, like I really want to drill into this emotional labor thing because I feel like it is a massive concept where it's like boundaries do really. Because of the patriarchy. Yeah. And I feel like you end up adopting. I found so many times I end up adopting a maternal role where I'm like I'm here to comfort you. I'm here to support you. I'm here to help you through everything.

And I'll willingly enter that role, not expecting anything back. But I think and like deep inside you know that they won't even give it back to you. They won't ever provide that service to you. even if you wanted it. Because that's your role, that's your function, especially as women who have their lives together, not that we have them completely together, like, not at all, but women who are emotionally mature,

it's like people seek you out, realize that you have that kind of, your roots are in the ground. They can get something from you. And they see your weak spot. They're like, I know that if I just play the sad person in this situation or like if I just show them, even the tiniest bit of, you know,

the things I'm going through, their empathy bone is just going to light up. and their just knee-jerk reaction is just to care for you to take you under their wing and it just it kind of makes me a little bit annoyed sometimes it makes me very annoyed i mean yeah it makes me very annoyed like i'm having this situation with someone at the moment and i'm just like what do you want for me right now like why am i here and it just becomes so obvious that the only reason they talk to me is because they need me to provide them with emotional support yeah and it's so exhausting and it's not even just emotional support it's

It's being asked to do things like driving them somewhere. Oh. At the click of a hat. And it's little things like that. I'm happy to do it. There was a time at college that I used to edit people's papers for them. For free? For free.

When you had your own stuff going on? Yeah. You used to give too much, Phoebe. I know. Your heart's too big for your body sometimes. I could have made so much bank that year, but no, I edited people's papers for them. You could have had free time. Exactly.

I actually like editing people's papers. stuff but I should have you know but what part do you like more do you like that you're doing something for someone exactly I'm being called out I know I'm not trying to call you out but it's like worth like really analyzing like what kind of it is because there is an incentive to do it you wouldn't be doing it if you were being forced against your will but it's like what kind of incentive is that but I really do see it and I see it with so many of my female friends and I and I think it's an important disclaimer I think I've gotten very good all the people who I would any person in my life right now would willingly drop everything and help them out because I also know that they would do that back

for me it's not a transactional relationship absolutely and I think I'm I'm in a similar boat where it's been what almost four years of doing too much and now I'm like well if you're if you're somebody that's receiving this this service I guess for me but that's because I know you're doing return yeah and it's like important to recognize that and it kind of leads like leads back into our boundaries conversation how much are you going to are you willing to give to people and how much do you want to be a yes person? Because being a yes person gets you in trouble. Like, I don't know, in the last six years.

It gets lots of fun things too. You get to do fun things. It does, but then it's like if you say yes to everything. Okay, disclaimer. It's yes to certain things. I mean, in terms of career opportunities, say yes to everything. Yeah. Say yes to every single opportunity you get.

Say yes to it. In terms of doing too much for other people, sometimes it's good to say no. Yeah, and I think sometimes we both don't say no when we really want to. Like how many times have you found that in the past couple of months where you're in a situation, you're like, I really don't want to be here. And here you are. Yeah. That was me last.

I'm not going to say that. But I've had that recently. And I think it links back to, you remember when one of the first things we talked about psychologically was like this high integrated and low integrative complexity. Good segue. It was a good segue, wasn't it? Because it's really, hey, do you want me to explain? Yeah, Gemma's going to explain it because I sometimes we'll have a conversation and I'll go,

what's that thing again that you told me about? And it's this. And it's this, because it really applies to Phoebe in a nutshell. So, okay, go. Okay. So there's this concept and it's in psychology and it's low integrative and high integrative complexity.

And it's these ways of viewing the world. And it's often associated with things like your political views as an example, but also just your general perspective way of applying things to the world, way of interacting with the world. So people with low integrative complexity, see things as very black or white, good or bad, you know, evil or angel, I don't know, very like, it's very this or that. So for example, you know, the war in Iraq is like a really good example of this. People who supported that, you know, they saw people in Iraq as terrorists, which isn't true,

but they saw them as that and they were really able to be like, they're bad guys, we're good guys, therefore we can invade. Whereas people with high integrative complexity, they're often a lot more intelligent. Oh, stop it. Yeah, I know, right. It's just leading into compliments. Often a lot more... It is a date.

I tell you. I know. I want to... Can I sweep over? Yeah. Keep going with the definition. Yeah, so people with high integrative complexity,

often more creative, they think about things in a nuanced way. So if you have a dilemma, say a friend, you're not going to think, or someone wrongs you. You're not going to be like, they did this, therefore they're bad

because anyone who does this is bad. You're going to be like, oh, this person did this thing to me. Okay, let me think about it from their perspective. Let me think about different interpretations. Let me pull this apart and analyze it from various perspectives. I want a problem solve this. Like, your brain refuses to see things in this just like dichotomy of different categories. So high integrative complexity. It's people who, it's very difficult for them to make decisions around things. Does that sound familiar? I do feel a little bit cool out, but yes.

But I gave you so many compliments. No, true, true, true, true. And now the hammer hits. I love you, but. I love you, but, yeah. That was really nice, but... So it's like, they find it really hard to make decisions. They find it very easy to see the good in people,

which kind of leads back to that, like, people-pleasing, yes-person type idea. Because if you see everything from every single perspective, if you just tear ideas apart until they are their bones, you get to them be selective about how, you get to view a situation. Yeah. So in terms of the war and a row, because it's a really good example of people who have low

integrative and high integrative complexity, you might see this war and you might be like, yeah, but how come this, what contributed to this? Like, is there any possibility that we're actually the bad guys because isn't the things that we're upset about the same things that we're doing to them? Like this, that, that, and then you get to really create a more nuanced and complex view. And I think Phoebe has high integrative complexity. That is, like, I have to admit, one of the highest. Not that either is better than the other, but like a huge compliment.

I feel like one is. You need both in the world. You need both in the world. And I really appreciate Gemma saying that because it almost confirms what I'm studying. So I study environmental science and international relations, but we forget about that. I forgot that you study that. Yeah, we forget I study that one. And in my environment degree, I do a lot of systems dynamics, which is that idea.

You can create these system diagrams. where you can connect. So for example, I did a project recently on climate change and health. I read this paper. Yes. And about how climate change impacts health. And like, for some people like, well, I guess so. I guess a warming climate is going to affect health.

Why? Give us some of the reasons. Okay. Well, there's three categories. There's like direct reason. There's a flood from climate change. You die. Oh, that got really serious. The second level is like, like through diseases, like vector-borne diseases.

There's going to be an increase of malaria in Australia due to rising temperatures. Why? Why? Because the climate's changing. So the bugs, the mosquitoes like it warm up. Yeah. They like it hot. They like it hot. And the mosquitoes are going to be coming right to Australia carrying that malaria.

And the third one is like mental health. So you'd go, oh, how's like mental health or socioeconomic as well? you could say there's going to be higher rates of domestic violence as a result of climate change. Why? Because rising temperatures can cause a natural disaster and a drought. A drought and that causes mental stress and that causes partners to lash out onto each other. I don't think it causes it triggers it. No, yeah, it triggers it.

And so you can create these system diagrams where you can connect the political to the social, to the economic and you can go into these subcategories of each. and you can figure out which variables affecting what. And I don't know, I find that fascinating. Yeah, I find it really cool. And this is high integrated complexity because I, so when me and Phoebe first became friends, we used to do lots of study together. I remember your approach to, an essay would take you so much longer than anyone else.

No, but it wouldn't take me longer. I would ponder for like weeks over it. I'd be like, yeah, but what about this perspective? And then I would write like maybe six different essay, like plans, like just plans. I wouldn't even start writing. Then it would be the two days before the essay is due. And I would... And then I would smash out, like, I think this is just such a skill.

I would smash out. You should see her do this. I will smash out an essay in like two days and just like... And then I retype it multiple times and then I realize that I hate it so I delete it all. And then I retype it all again. And then boom, done. Perfectionist syndrome. But it's because, oh my God.

Like, you should just hear her, just, she was doing this one on fishing once. I've never, ever heard someone get so, like, I, you just, you just got yourself into a rabbit hole. You were like, but then what about this? What about that? Like, just, for context, the essay was about how does, what was it again? It was Sri Lanka, was it? Yeah, the Polk Strait and how a decrease in fish, like overfishing in the Polk straight is causing violence, but it's creating like a, like a, a, like a, a, a, cycle of violence.

Yeah. Anyway. Between Sri Lanka and... If anyone wants that essay, they can reach out to me and I will send it to them. I'll drop her Instagram in the description and you can hit her up. Because it was really good. I read it. It was really good.

And then remember, I went home and I was getting YouTube video recommendations. And I was like, God, the algorithm is nose. It does. Because we were in close proximity. But yeah, so what are your thoughts on high integrative complexity and... Well, I think you have it. Are there, okay, I want to know, are there downfalls to it? Yeah, absolutely.

Like, so normally people would be like, although especially we, we exist in a pretty, you and I, like in a pretty elitist society. Camberra is highly elitist. Absolutely, and I comes from such a privileged background. Yeah, me too. Such a privileged background. And everyone here is, I would say, the, ah, I know a few people who I would, it's, like, funny, because when you start studying psychology, you begin, like, doing these things

where you just like categorize everyone into these. It's pretty dangerous because you probably shouldn't do that. But, you know, you see these like patterns of behavior and like traits that people have and you're like low integrative, high integrative. Like you apply these different concepts to them. So I do definitely recognize people in my life who are low integrative. And Phoebe did say like low integrative doesn't necessarily mean negative. Oh, absolutely not.

It just means low levels of abstraction. So high levels of abstraction. Firstly, if you have high integrative complexity, you more likely to have. a higher IQ. So congrats on that one. Well, over a hundred. Sometimes it doesn't show through. I'm sure I could think of many examples.

That's when I'm like, gosh, she's in a low integrated complexity moment. But a downside is also you're more likely to have greater levels of anxiety. Oh, yeah. Bingo. Yeah, bingo, smack bang, bingo. And think about it, because it's like if you get a problem, it would be so easy.

I wish I could be the person who's like, I know the answer to this because I have these very clear categories of what's right and what's wrong and what's this and what's that in my mind. But if you do have that high integrated, those categories are not clear, which leads to significant overthinking and can lead to like pretty bad anxiety. I think it's harder to make decisions. Connecting the dots on problems that don't need to be connected. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I'm sure you find this heaps with like environment, like you do a lot about like climate change. Yes. Yeah. It would be pretty scary being someone with high integrative and approaching

issues that are just by nature incredibly complex. Wicked problems. Wicked problems. And you talk about them. Do you ever get like really bad climate anxiety? It's hard because I personally like I do but I don't. I because like with climate change I'm going to be lucky. Like I'm very very privileged and that's just like the lack of the draw of where I was born.

and the family that was born into and all of that. It's going to be the country. It's going to, yeah, and the country, but it's going to be the people who are low socioeconomic, low socioeconomic, rural, rural, people of color, indigenous people. It's going to be those people that are going to be hit the hardest. And so I feel climate anxiety for other people, maybe not for myself so much. Isn't it crazy?

like didn't just recently there was like a UN report that Australia is like the lowest and I'm like okay here's the thing yes we have significant impacts of climate change like I lived through the bushfires a couple years ago like we were in

that was in like two years ago yeah we were like stuck in Bateman's Bay like literally on the doorstep of one of the biggest bushfires in Australia the consequences of climate change in this country are very apparent exactly and I think one of the reasons why I'm interested in climate change is because it like so I'm like interested in the social side of it maybe the

socio-economic side of it and because it it's not just an environmental issue it's like I remember in my first year of uni we did this diagram like you can construct so many different sort of diagrams of it but it had it had social in the little like a circle in the middle then it had economic and the outside then it had environment and it's like if you affect the environment you affect everything. You affect every single aspect of your life. You affect the political. You impact the social

and the economic. If you, like, obviously it depends on the problem, but like if you affect the social, it kind of can only sometimes will only affect the social. Yeah. If you affect the economic... What's an example of that? Oh, I don't know. You put me in the spot.

Oh, sorry. Yeah, it's, I don't know. I think that's why I'm because it has such a consequence on all these other facets of people's lives. Yeah. And I think the big thing is like in Australia, you know, we're contributing so much, but it's going to be creating problems for those our government, quite frankly, doesn't care about. Like, and, what do you mean? Don't say that. I work for the APS. Oh, sorry. Cut this bit out. Oh, no, but okay, it's not Phoebe saying it's me. Yeah. Like, there are just certain populations. that our government neglects.

It's really, like, indigenous groups being a primarily one, like, the primary one. Absolutely. But it's not just them, it's like, you know, climate change. It's like the best collective action problem there is. And the worst collective action problem to try and solve. The best in terms of, like, it's the perfect example of exactly the issue, whereby, like, we contribute to the problem because we want the benefits of coal and shit like that. And then...

We could do a whole other episode in this because I have so many... We can come back to this another day. We'll do a climate anxiety. And we could do a group one with like me and Aaron and Tenaia. Some of the Enviro girls. I feel like I need you guys to talk about it more because I just have very like, we're going to come back to this. Political ideas.

And I think we need to talk about your time in some of these communities in Tenet Creek. So Tenet Creek, we kind of brought it up before, but I think it's been a huge, it was a huge kind of turning point for you. And very rarely do you have those where you're like, oh, this is a moment that I need to take a hold of, recognize, and this will be impacting me for years to come. So how did you end up in Tenet Creek? Yeah, so I'm not going to go too much into detail because of my work. But I'm really fortunate to have a job in the public service that allow me to travel, which travel to on a topic that I'm interested in. And social, social issues, environmentally.

Which is? Social, social environment. What is it? I remember. So I was really fortunate. I got to do a work trip pretty early on in my job to Tennant Creek. Yeah. Middle of nowhere.

Middle of nowhere. Came back with a lot of thoughts to my friends. We had a great chat about it when you came out. Yeah, yeah. So for context, Tenant Creek, smack bang in the middle of Norman Territory. I had never been there. I'm from Adelaide originally. lived in camp

Rowlaid yeah that's pretty much it and what did you find when you went there because you were going there for work but you came back with like it was insane yeah and I think I think anyone that would travel

to remote locations in Australia you know regional Victoria regional New South Wales so full context I'm I'm interested in rural regional issues like that's I'm not a city girl all my friends are telling me

they're like wanting to move to Sydney or Melbourne I can't think of any worse. Why can't you just call me out? I don't, I can't think of anything worse. I want to, my dream is to move to a farm in New Zealand. In the middle of nowhere. Yeah, with your sheep. With a hot farmer. Oh, Phoebe wants a farmer. So I'm out to farm wants a wife. Okay. And, um, yeah, and so Tenant Creek is one of the, um, most, has really high rates of violence has really high rates of sexual assault, including towards children. It also has a really sad history.

It's in the Northern Territory. I would like to say, like, you know, my respect to the traditional owners that they welcome me onto their land, the Warramungu people. But as a result, it has got this really, sad colonial history with the stolen generation and like I'm not Indigenous I don't want to speak too much on that but it was so I've traveled to develop like I mean the term some people like academics use is developing countries and I've traveled to places like that and I would say that some of the standards of living in rural like remote Australia are worse than in places where we

have um a foreign like foreign aid budget too really yeah it was it was just it was really it was quite upsetting um yeah but you came back and you kind of just had this new vigor like what what did it kind of teach you about what you wanted what you wanted to do in the future yeah so I think I mean growing up family full of doctors they've I mean family full of doctors that are all like public health physicians yeah so they're not so they're not so They're not, you know, your surgeons or anything. But sort of came back knowing that, like, I mean, my mum and dad always says to me, they're like, you're not put on this earth to make money.

And they're like, you put on this earth to make this earth a better place for other people. Of course they said that. I know, because they did. Bloody angels. And so I really like them saying that because it has made me go, I don't think I'd feel fulfilled if I was doing something that was, only serving the purpose of making money. And so going to Tenant Creek, with all the problems that Tenant Creek has, I'm sure you can

Google it, and the Barclay as a whole. Because that place is beautiful, beautiful people, beautiful environment. There's a lot of hope. There is a lot of hope for the future. And I mean, I'm such an outsider. Like, I'm such a clear outsider. I was basically a tourist. But it's good you can recognize that instead of suggesting.

you're an expert. No, I have no clue how to, you know, do, solve these incredibly complex problems, but it has made me go, like, I will not be happy in my life if I don't work on something that I feel like I'm doing good for the world. That sounds so, like, savior of me, but... No, but I don't know. I think your intentions are incredibly pure, and it's just that you found this thing that you've been like, well, this is, this is it. Like, this is, this is. something that is the fact that, you know, these areas aren't prioritised, the fact that no one seems to care. Because Australia is such, like, I'm just going to say very bluntly, Australia is incredibly racist. Yeah, it is. The colonial history of Australia and how we treat

anyone that's not white is disgusting. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, person whatever like that's who I that's yeah who I am but I have people my family that are migrants that are not white and I have have you know I've like it's it's it's so obvious it's so easy to see it's so easy to see like you don't have to be you don't have to be that doesn't have to be your lived experience to appreciate that it's someone else's yeah that's that's empathy yeah it's basic empathy being like and that's the thing I don't understand it's like a lot of people I've like met people like Australia isn't racist like I've never seen it. It's like look closer.

And like obviously I have no lived experience of racism but it was pretty damn obvious to me that Tennant Creek is living, the people living in Tennant Creek are living a very, very different Australia to the Australia that I grew up in. Wow. And what did that kind of, so you've kind of mentioned what that made you think about for the future. That like in five years time do you see yourself, because you apply for a job in Tennant Creek, you came back and you yeah yeah i didn't i removed it yeah oh she was i'm gonna do i'm gonna do it on us next yeah yeah yeah but she but she but it was yeah sorry not to tell you but like you kind of came back and were like yeah this is what i want to do like any help i can be just by listening just by knowing the

systems like i'll do it because i think there's a there's a there's a i have i think you've got to use like your privilege for good like i have i went to an amazing school i have an amazing family i hate to do any extra-curricular activity I ever wanted to do. Got to go to an amazing university. I'm financially supported. I'm financially stable. Like, I'm a white woman. Like, I should use, like, this power.

Like, I guess you could call it a power for good. Yeah, it is power. I mean, in terms of the climate change stuff, I find that it's, I will be somebody from, like, a conservative background is more likely to listen to me. Yeah. then someone else. Somebody else that doesn't have the privileges

that I have. And that they don't respect. They don't respect that person and they're never going to listen to them or change their mind. But I have a higher chance of being able to Yeah. Facilitate a conversation because they're not going to walk in with prejudice. Exactly. So like, oh, you're one of us.

There's in groups and outgroups all over Australia and you just have to look for them. And I think as well there's like a clear lack of communication channels between different community groups around Australia, whether that that be regional areas or whatever and trying to understand how government works or how does the power system work? How does who's in power in Australia work? So I think because I come from this background,

I understand how these systems work. We've navigated them because we didn't have trouble navigating them. Exactly. So I feel like it's, I almost feel like I should make space by like taking a step back, but creating a space, a communication. channel for people that can't. I don't know.

Like, I don't want this to come off as like, I'm some sort of like white savior or whatever. No, because you see, you're very aware, like, you know, you know that where you've come from. But I want to, like, I want to use my skills for good. Yeah, it's like, the education that I got. Like, I might as well. Do something that's like, doesn't just benefit, like, white people in Australia

for the future, for every future generation. But yeah, five years time. And you're doing honours next year, like so many big things. Yeah, honours. That should be cool. and get that sorted. Any words of wisdom before we say goodbye? I ask Patel's question.

I think it really does for a conversation, but like, biggest lesson you've learnt last year? What has it been in your second year of your 20s? Oh my goodness. Okay. I feel like I'm still learning. So it's, you could ask me this question every single week

and it'd probably be a different answer depending on like what. Isn't that the best part though? It's like every week there's a new lesson to kind of be learned from the situation's life throws at you. I think in your 20s, you have to, you have, like, oh, it's hard. Oh, it's okay. This is like a response that is like what your 20s is like.

Yeah, I know. It's like, I was going to say, like, in your 20s, I thought you were going to say, in your 20s, I thought you were going to say, in your 20s, you say yes. And then we've talked about how you shouldn't say yes. Well, because, okay, so I think everything, to sum up, the conclusion. Yeah. The conclusion of this podcast. Concluding remarks.

Concluding. Situationships, terrible. Set your boundaries. Set your boundaries of friends because that also includes protecting yourself from doing emotional labor that is unnecessary. Which we talked about. Emotional labor is fine if it's reciprocated and if you know where you stand. And you also should, what else have you spoken about? High integrated, low integrative.

We talked about so much more. But big psychological concepts. I think the main thing is just like look after yourself. Is that your lesson? yeah i mean i'm terrible at it but um look after yourself yeah know what you want out of life and if you figure out what you want out of life go get it go get it amazing words to finish on because that's the thing isn't it like i because i am so lucky to have had such a supportive family that have told me to just go get whatever i want like yeah you can do it you deserve it like you deserve

good things in your life exactly well amazing very stirring words from Phoebe. Thank you for coming on. I'm so sorry for such a chaotic podcast. No, trust me, when we listen back to it, it's going to sound smooth as little. Oh, okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on and for devoting your Friday night and some snacks for us to talk about these things. I hope you guys have enjoyed our wisdom. It's a bit of a ramble, but that's the point of these episodes. If you don't like it, you don't have to listen. So there's my kind words for you. Lovely to meet you all. Yeah. Phoebe is a great friend and I'm so glad she said yes. So I hope you got something out of it and we'll see you next week where we're going to talk about the psychology

of social anxiety. I'm keen to tune in for that one. Bye. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. Eighty-four is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite offers. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a wild year. I don't think there's more important year for black people listen to look back at it on the i heart radio app apple podcasts or

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