The Psychology of your 20s - 50. Let’s talk about death ft. A Mortuary Technician

Episode Date: October 23, 2022

We are joined this week by Laura, a student mortuary technician in Australia to discuss her experiences and role and how she thinks about death and the meaning of a good life on this special guest episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello, everybody. welcome back to the show. Welcome back to another episode. This week, it's a fabulous, wonderful guest episode with a lovely human. I'm so glad to have her on board. Thank you. Oh my gosh. That's so sweet.

What's your name? Yeah. I'm glad you want me to introduce myself now. Yeah. I'm Laura. Hi. Hi. Hi. Yeah. It's so fun to be here. Yeah. It's really exciting. Laura, how do we know each other before we jump into? We have a mutual friend. Yeah, EJ. Yeah, because she's on the podcast. EJ and Gia. Yeah, they were literally on my. Yeah, they were last time.

Yeah, well, EJ and Gia are my roommates. Yes. So we went out to dinner and then we got chatting and here I am. That's how it works. If you ever want to come on the podcast, I'm just going to like vaguely approach you after that could be a Mexican dinner and be like, hi. You should come on the podcast. That's basically what I did with you.

Remember I stood into your Instagram deals? Well, because, yeah, you said it like at dinner when I told you about what I was doing at uni. And then I was like, oh, I think she, I think I might be on the podcast. And I was just kind of waiting to see if it actually, if it actually happened. Yeah. And then you messaged me. And I was like, so exciting. I've been chosen. Yeah. I always stick to my word. I feel like once I've like met someone, I'm like, I love this. I love your vibe. Yeah. And I go, it sounds like I'm like approaching you for like a three. So I love your vibe. That's really funny. But like I love their vibe. They have an interesting story of which you do, which we're going to get into very short.

I'm like, here we go. Yeah. Next step. So maybe that's worth talking about. Yeah, what I do. But why are you on the show today? What's special about you? I was special about me.

Well, the thing that made you approach me was my uni degree. So I do a degree in forensic mortuary. So I don't know if for people who don't really know what that means, when someone dies, I will perform an autopsy and figure out how they died, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. So I do a medical degree. Yeah.

A medical degree. Yeah. I think that's a really great way to put it. Yeah, because it's Bachelor of Medical Science, in brackets, forensic mortuary. That's my official title. That's great. Okay. One thing that I wanted to know is how many people are in your course.

Because, so I'll just quickly say this. The reason also I wanted to bring you on was because I'm trialling this new series called unconventional, where I get people such as yourself who, are doing career paths that I wouldn't say an alternative, like it is still a definite established career path and something that is very necessary in society. Yes. But something that I think most children aren't like, when I grow up, I want to be a mortician. Yeah.

The same way that they're like, I want to be a ballerina or I want to be a doctor or what. Yeah, exactly. So I was like, this is such an interesting, an interesting concept to me. And you're such an interesting person that you have decided to do this. Yeah. So how many other people would you say are in the same boat with you? Well, I'm pretty sure there's 18 of us currently because I'm in my last semester at uni. So in two weeks, that's it.

I'm graduated. Yay. Yeah, very exciting. Very nerve-wracking, but exciting. But yeah, I think there's 18 of us currently. But I don't think that everyone actually will go into the field of forensic mortuary technician. I think that a few people want to go on to do research and things like that. Yeah.

So it's very small compared to my other uni classes because I have like a placement like unit and yeah, there's 18 of us. 18 people. Yeah. And what do you mean by research? Because you obviously want to be hands on. Yes. I think a lot of people just want to do it maybe as like a stepping stone into other kind

of medical things. I'm not really sure. We have a lot of people from very diverse like areas. I know, like, someone I used to do it with, wanted to be a teacher, was a teacher beforehand and has now transitioned. So there's a lot of different stories within how people end up there, because it's definitely not. It's unconventional.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to say normal, but I was like, no, unconventional. That's a very good word. I think it's totally normal. Do you think, what do you think of some of the common, sorry, we're about to get into serious questions? Yeah, of course. I'm just kind of like spitballing here.

Yeah. This is so fascinating. But what do you think is some of the reasons people get into this. field or why did you decide like this is what I want to do with my life right now? Yeah. Well, um, I've always been really into like science and I've really loved like biology, that kind of thing, um, at school. And I think I used to, I always really, I've always really, but yeah, boys really. I used to want to be a vet because I really like animals, obviously. You know, that that's what I do is my side hustle at the moment.

Yeah. He was looking after dogs. Exactly. That's carrying me through uni. But I really, I ended up doing a volunteering work at a vet clinic when I was probably about 14. And I really liked, like, watching the surgeries. I thought it was really interesting. The reason that I stopped doing that was because when people were crying about putting

their dogs down, I just wanted to cry with them. And it was so heartbreaking. And I was like, this is not very professional if I cry with every single person. So I switched and then when I was 16, I was really obsessed with this show called Silent Witness on the BBC. I used to watch it every Friday with my mum. Yeah. What's it about? It's about a forensic pathologist.

Oh, okay. There we go. So yeah. So forensic mortuary technician is what I will be after this. Yeah. Whereas forensic pathologist is kind of like the higher, the analogy that I made to earlier about the nurse versus the surgeon. Yeah. So it was about the surgeon one, the forensic pathologist.

and yeah, I just thought it was really interesting, watching her dissect people, essentially. Yeah. And because I've always been interested in medicine, I just started Googling how to become a forensic pathologist, and then I found this degree. And then since I was 16, I just kind of stuck with it. I just decided, okay, that's what I'm going to do. Yeah, so I don't really, I just kind of stumbled into it, I guess, and I've just stuck with it.

But I've really, whilst, because I've just finished. my, because I'm in my last degree, in my last semester, I've just finished my clinical placement period. And the part that I actually found that I've really enjoyed about it was feeling like I was taking care of people when they couldn't anymore. Oh, that's such a beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, because there was a couple cases that were quite confronting and or because obviously our job is to find cause of death. So you need to know their medical history. their personal history, we get a story that comes kind of with them from the police about what happened, that kind of thing so that we, and the pathologist knows what to look for.

Because the whole point is to be as non-invasive as possible, because you don't really want to be, you know, doing all these procedures to someone if you don't have to. If you could just do a scan, a CT scan and find a cause of death. But so some of the ones that were more challenging, it felt really nice to like, after we'd done a procedure, especially sometimes we wash their hair. We wash the body down, you know, we make sure they're really clean and we restore them. Like, part of the job is restoration. Yeah. So it's, it felt really nice to be able to wash their hair, brush their hair and make sure they were, like, taken care of. And it felt, even though it was a hard thing to do, it made me feel like I was

helping them in a way when they couldn't help themselves anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's actually something that I didn't think about before I went on placement, but that really, it made me feel good. Like, it felt like I was doing something so, like, so worthwhile. Yeah. Yeah. That is absolutely stunning. I, like, that is such, not that there are any wrong answers. Yeah.

What a beautiful answer. And do you think that that is, like, a common motivation, like, wanting to, obviously, you came into this being, like, I'm just fascinated by this. I've had this, you know, fictional hero who does this kind of work, and it's brought me in. into this kind of field. And but do you think now that you're kind of beginning to work in this profession on a professional level? Like doing it as almost, you're almost about to graduate and it's going to become your job.

Yeah. What do you think some of those really important skills or traits are to have if you want to, if you're considering pursuing this kind of job? Yeah. So everyone, pretty much everyone that I like interacted with whilst I was on this placement period, they all, we all had that same respect. Like, obviously, you know, it's not a normal thing, this job. Like, it's not normal to deal with dead people every day.

And it's very, like, confronting and mentally tiring. But I've never felt more supported in a work environment than when I was on that placement period. Because that I remember my lectures have actually discussed this with us before, like, when I started kind of this year, that it's so important to make those connections with, your like your peers and your co-workers in the future because no one else will understand what you're going through than those people. And so it was like this beautiful community and everyone shares this respect for like how important what we're doing is and that you know this person like whoever they are someone loved them. They were someone's entire world and it's so important that we find out what happened to them to give that family closure. But to all that

respect them as a person and to make sure that they're taken care of and I felt that with everyone that that's a shared kind of belief and like the motivation for it. Yeah. I think that answered your question. It really did. Honestly, it's really changing my perspective because I think when we think of people who deal with dead bodies, it can be really strange. Yeah. Would you find that's like a reaction a lot of people have? Yeah. I've I, the only kind of two reactions I get when people ask what I do, which comes up all the time. I feel like I talk about my degree all the time because you know you go to the hairdress and they ask you what you're up to?

And I go, oh, I'm at uni. And they go, oh, what's you do at uni? And then I have to go, I can't up dead people. Yeah. And what, oh, my God. Yeah. I just like, oh, I do stuff on the internet. Yeah.

Yeah, I either get like, oh, my God, wow, that's so cool. I love N-C-I-S. Like the amount of people that are like, oh, I used to love criminal. minds. Or I've had a couple people who kind of go, oh, and they give me like this weird look. Like, oh, okay, that makes. And someone even told me once that, oh, that makes me feel a little uncomfortable. And I was like, okay.

Why? Someone has to do it. Yeah, exactly. And I think that honestly, I was actually talking about this with one of my supervisor I had on placement that this, I feel like a lot of it is because you, you know, like you watch movies and TV shows and that. And a lot of the time, like, the morticians and that, they're painted as like these kind of like creeps. I was going to say that that's, obviously, I met you.

I really like you. Yeah. You get along very well. You're a lovely human. I wish you guys could see how lovely she is off the microphone. Thank you. But I think what my perspective is like exactly that. Like before I met you as like, these people are like strange, like middle aged men who are all born for some reason in my mind.

I always think of this is going to be such a weird comparison. but if you've ever seen, did you watch Riverdale? No, I didn't. I did it. And you know what? I'm glad I did it. Because now I like see it on TikTok all the time and I'm like, it's so bad. But I like, it came out in high school when I was like 15.

So I was the target demographic. And there's, oh my God, people are going to think I'm so weird. But there's this guy on it who's the mortician and he's like called Dr. Cuddle or something. And he's the creepiest dude. They paint him as like this absolute creep. And he's always just like, he's like taken. bribes and stuff and just being all like they always film him like he's just like eerie and it and I hate

it because then people watch that and then like yeah do you think that's some of the stigma that comes along with I think so I'd like yeah like people who work with dead people like people like funeral directors or something like that people always see them as like what that because it's weird yeah it's because they're like well what's wrong with you why do you want to work with dead people yeah yeah but Yeah. Here we are. Yeah. But I do think that that definitely is something.

The more that I get into it, the more I'm like, oh, I wish that that wasn't a thing. Because it is. Like everyone there just wants to take care of the people. And like you said, like someone has to do this job. Yeah. And I like personally, I find it very interesting because I like the science of it. Like I have such a passion for like anatomy. of the human body because I think it's so interesting the way that we like,

like born and then keep living and just the way that our bodies keep us alive all the time, like your organ systems and that. I just think it's so interesting. Yeah. And that's what I love about it. But then it's also the added bit of like being able to take care of those people. Yeah. You know, that's kind of my thing about it.

Yeah. And you would say that's like the best part of your job? Yeah. Yeah. I would think so. Yeah. And I think as well because, like, I was only on placement for two weeks, but I felt like everyone was so friendly and close to each other because it is an experience that only a very few amount of people are going to understand. Yeah.

Because especially the field is really small as well. And, you know, it's not something that most people can relate to. So it felt it was like a real kind of community, nice environment. And that was really nice as well. Yeah. Yeah. Because I can imagine, and please correct me if I'm wrong, like the levels of burnout would be pretty high. Yeah. I think we do get, there is a quite high dropout rate in this degree as well, I think. Just because obviously some people don't, it's not for them. It's definitely not for everyone, this kind of job.

But yeah, there's definitely, obviously some people die in incredibly traumatic ways. Or even if they're not traumatic, if it mirrors something that's happened in your life, it can. be quite like triggering. So yeah, there is definitely times where people who work in that field are going to freak out and not be able to cope with it. But like I think that's why that community is so important. Important. Yeah. And that kind of leads to my like second question. Second question. Next question. I feel like we've already asked you. We've touched on many things. I know. I've already asked you so many questions. But what do you think is the hardest part of this? Other than you know, the stigma, like you said, being triggered by your own experiences, which is unavoidable,

I think, in many professions. But what is really, what do you think is the hardest part? It sounds, I don't think that for me, the mental toll is the hardest part. I think mine is like the physical nature is that it's quite, it's a very physically intensive job and you're on your feet all day. I think that's, I know that's quite a boring answer. No, no, that's very interesting. But it's, yeah, it's just quite physically intensive.

And that's actually, I was thinking about this the other day that along with the stigma thing, it's like it is a hard job. Obviously, both emotionally but also physically as well. It's very like labor intensive. You're on your feet all the time, you know, people are heavy. You have to lift things, you know. Oh, interesting. Like, because, you know, moving bodies around that kind of thing. Like it's, they're heavy.

Yeah. And so people, you know, it's hard both emotionally and physically. And so if people didn't like, what am I trying to say here? That if people weren't so passionate about it, they wouldn't do it. It's not just a job that you fall into because it's easy. It's you need to be passionate to want to do that job. You need to care about going to work every day. Yeah.

That, you know, that's the important. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like that is the same with a lot of jobs. But particularly in your profession, I think most of us don't like to think about death, which is a very, very human animal reaction. Like even before we were recording this episode, we were having this massive chat about loss and grief and death and how difficult that is. And do you think that in any way that working so close to those who are no longer alive has impacted you when it comes to,

other things that have happened in your life? I think that, yeah, it definitely, like I was telling you before this when we were talking about our loss and everything, that, yeah, I have, I've personally lost a few people in my life. And it actually, it kind of motivated me to push harder in this degree. Because I think, especially during COVID, you know, everyone at uni with, I think we're struggling with everything being online. Yeah. But I really was kind of struggling to feel motivated to do it.

but I think having those my personal experiences, it made me want to help the families of these people more because I've been on the side of that. Yeah. You know, I know how traumatic it is when you lose someone. So, like especially unexpectedly. So I think that kind of fueled me to want to do it more because that means that now I can be a part of finding out what happened

to their loved one and being able to tell them, like, what actually happened. And, yeah, I don't know. I think it kind of the being around the dead people all the time. I think it actually in a way has made me like more compassionate and more like just more aware. Because obviously, you know, I am like you're around death or day and it makes you really it kind of just made me really appreciate. Yeah. Like being alive and yeah.

And just being more gentler on people as well because I have no idea, you know, who they've lost. or even like sometimes now I see because I've seen so many different people come through that I sometimes see people in the street and I'm like oh wow like they remind me of this person and like it makes me want to be nicer because when we like get these people and we see like their life story yeah and it just makes me be like I have no idea what's going on with anyone else because that's this sad life that someone has lived and now I get to take care of them but like when I'm out around living people, it just makes me feel so much more compassion because I really have no idea what they could be going through kind of thing. Yeah. It feels like it's given,

like you're able to give a gift to others in terms of closure. Yeah, exactly. Which is honestly, like one of the best things. Yeah. You can hope for if you've lost someone unexpectedly. Exactly. Or in really tragic circumstances. Yeah. It's just being given that gift of closure. But it's also given you, a much stronger gift of empathy yeah and i would say you're already an incredibly compassionate person so thank you just have been heightened but is it um i just want to touch on that part that just one thing that you said to me that i was like wow that's really interesting when you see people on the street yeah who look like people that you've seen at their like most vulnerable yeah end of life state um is it is it strange like or is it more or is it just that singular

reaction of like because I because you I can relate to it because you remind me of someone I want to treat you better or can it be like kind of an emotional reaction yeah sometimes I think it definitely can be especially if someone looks quite similar um and obviously I was on the on placement for two weeks so I feel like when you work there obviously you're more going to happen but sometimes reading people's stories yeah like you might feel more connected with someone because you look at their story and you're like oh wow like that's similar to me and I think then if you saw someone who looked like them in public, then that would be more of an emotional thing. But I also think that a lot of it is like you get quite desensitized to that because you kind of

have to because if you go in and you're like so sad about death every day, you're not going to be able to do the job. Yeah. And like ultimately like I'm, you know, I'm there to do this job as best I can and make sure that these people are looked after. So I kind of, you kind of need to leave that. Leave that at home. And yeah, and yeah, there's a, you really have to be quite mentally strong to be able to separate your work from your home life and not take work home with you. But yeah, I definitely like sometimes I, yeah, you would see people and I'm like, wow,

you look just like this person or, yeah. What cases do you think are the hardest? Do you think it's people who are our age, who are young? Yeah, I don't, yeah, obviously, yeah. children is always a hard one. But I find more the stories, yeah, are the harder ones when you read one that someone had no family or something or that they were alone. Like that is a hard one more than like, yeah, like it's very like determined on like the

case. Yeah. But there's, yeah, it's definitely, yeah, children is a hard one. I even find sometimes just elderly people, because obviously we live in an aging, like, aging population. But, yeah, it is, it is, there's, yeah, it makes you realize there's a lot of old people that, especially like die alone, which is very, I find that sad. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, honestly, because I, this is kind of a tangent, but sometimes I'm like, oh, I want to, like, you know, be alone forever and, like, just never marry. and be single and just like live a great life, a childless life, like, I just get a travel. And then I'm like, the flip side of that is like, what if I end up dead and no one finds me?

Yeah. Weeks. Yeah. Those are always, because you read about stories like that where like neighbors call because of, you know, there's flies on the windows or there's a smell and that's. Yeah, which is so. Which is sad. Yeah.

Oh, it's like, the other one, I read this really sad story today about this guy who was found in W.A. Kind of related, not really, but. um w a for those american listeners is a state in australia um and they he was um what's it called not a motor bike rider mountain bike rider oh mountain bike yeah and he had been missing for like 10 days or something and no one knew who he no one had noticed that he was missing and he got into like a really bad accident while he was mountain bike riding and some woman with her dog like found him yeah and i was like that is really really sad that there is no one to know

notice your absence. Exactly, yeah. Like, no one to notice your absence because your presence Yeah, exactly. Wasn't that felt? And I'm sure his presence was felt in ways that we might not even know. Yeah. But I can definitely say why that would be very, very difficult. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There's been ones whilst I was on the two-week placement that we would read. And it's like, because you tend to chat about them a lot as well because like I said, like that community, no one else understands what you're going through. So we tend to, there's a lot of talk about like, oh, well, that's sad. And we all read the story and we, like, that's really nice.

Yeah, there's a lot of conversation about it. And yeah, I remember there was one where we were, that's so sad because, yeah, no one, no family, like, they'd been left for a while. And then that's, it is, it's hard because it's, it's, that's sad that there was no one yet to realize that you were missing or no one checking up on you. Yeah. Yeah. And do you feel like, I feel like that would almost make what you were saying better, whereby you're able to give them that like. Exactly. Yeah.

Oh my God, can you hear the noise? Is that someone's car? Yeah. Sorry if you guys can hear that, but we've got, someone's having a little party in the street behind when we're recording, go off, and we're talking about death, they're living life. Oh my God, I'm absolutely good. Duality of man.

Duality of man. Okay, so we had a little bit of a distraction because there were people walking up and down the street, having an amazing time. But I guess that actually really links to what I want to talk about next. And we have kind of touched on this before, but how do you think this work has changed your perceptions around death and what a good death is? Yeah. I obviously, I think that a lot of people would think that there's probably no good way to die because obviously it's a, it's not a good thing. But I think it has just made me appreciate being like alive more.

I think I said that before, but, yeah, I don't know. It's hard to, like, say what a good death is because, like, you can never really, it's one thing that you can't really control. I mean, actually, I guess some people can, in terms of, yes, like, with suicides and that. But, yeah, I don't think there's really a good time ever to die. but I like what we were talking about before of not being alone like I would just not that's what I wouldn't like I wouldn't enjoy being left yeah if that makes sense but then again that's why I think I feel like this job is really important is that then we can help yeah you know do you find that this job makes you think more about death um I I do think actually yeah because I think then in terms of however that person has died, whether it be, you know, an accident or a medical thing, I was saying to you before, I've never felt like I wanted to be healthier in my life.

Yes. Because obviously, you know, obesity and that is a big problem within modern, like the modern world. And wow, I've never wanted. Yeah, well, because even if someone looks relatively healthy on the outside. Sometimes, I don't know if you've ever heard of the phrase, like, I think someone said it when I was in high school, but like skinny fat where it's like skinny on the outside but fat

on the inside. What does that mean? So like when you have like, not sometimes a poor diet, but like your organs can develop, this is just like a medical lesson. Yeah, give it to us. They develop, you develop more fat around

your organs. So even if you look relatively healthy, in quotations. Yeah. On the outside, your organs can be quite unhealthy. Yeah. And yeah. And so sometimes now I think I'm like, wow, they, when someone I know is quite thin

or like you see someone who's quite thin, but maybe they don't eat well, I'm like, they could still be. Really unhealthy. Yeah, really unhealthy on the inside. And it's, yeah, because I don't think about that with myself a lot. Like I think that I, you know, I eat relatively healthy. And, you know, I like, I do my exercise. Yeah.

I'm like, wow, maybe my organs don't look great. That's so weird because you would see them. You would see what it looks like. Well, and that's the other thing as well with, like, I was talking about this with the other people I went on placement with, that now sometimes I see people, and I'm like, I bet I know what your organs look like. Really?

Yeah. My God, don't look too close to me. Hopefully my organs are, I'm not. I'm sure your organs would be beautiful. Thank you so much. Don't you worry. I exercise, I promise. I had some strawberries for lunch.

Yeah. What's the weirdest organ do you think, like, that you, when you're doing your examinations, is there one that you're like, oh, yeah, I can't wait to get to the brain or like, oh, dang, I've got to remove the pancreas or, like, look at the pancreas. I don't think there's one that I, like, oh, they get excited. I do like to look at people's hearts because your heart, I think heart health tells you a lot about overall health, because obviously it's a very important organ. So I do think it's really interesting to see people's hearts,

Because even some people who are quite small, your heart weight is supposed to be, like, roughly, I can't remember the percentage, but it's supposed to be a specific percentage of your overall body weight to be healthy. And some people's hearts are just absolutely massive. And you wouldn't even think that. Do they get to control that? Is it about health? Yeah, heart health is about, like, sometimes diet, but mostly exercise because your heart is a muscle. so the more that you work that muscle, then the bigger it.

Oh, the bigger it gets. Yeah. Because I think it's, I'm not the best at it, but, well, like, I know that your diet can affect, like, your heart and that kind of thing. I haven't done my medical degree yet. I'm not, I'm not a doctor yet. Yeah, yes.

But you know more than most of us, though. But yeah, so, like, it's kind of crazy seeing some people who on the outside, you wouldn't think their organs are that unhealthy, but then you open them up. And oh, my God, wow, look how big that organ is, or look how big their liver is, look how big their heart is. Yeah. So I do enjoy the heart to see that because that's quite indicative.

But I do always just as well when you first see the organs, it's always very interesting because sometimes it's not what you're expected to see at all. It's just like, whoa, they looked quite healthy. This is not what I expected. So that's quite interesting. But obviously the grossest part is the bowels because... Oh, my God. Yuck.

Wait, explain. Is that... TMI, but can you explain that more? Like, I thought maybe this is my, like, pleb knowledge. When people die, like, all their, like, unprocessed food just gets exerted. Yeah, no. Sometimes people do, like, I guess, like, pee themselves, poop themselves when they die because of that release of muscles.

But a lot of the times you still get it quite, like, because obviously your intestines is quite a long pathway. Yeah. So if it's, like, somewhere in there that's not close to the end, we just have to like scoop it out well yeah it depends you try to kind of keep the bowel intact because it doesn't smell very nice um because it's a bowel but sometimes it bursts or it'll come out and yeah you just kind of you wear a hell of a lot of PPE like yeah yeah personal protective equipment there's i wear like seven layers whilst your oh my gosh i didn't even think about that

pairs of gloves, like, you're really kidded up. Yeah. Because it's, and that's just to protect us, because if, you know, we get everyone from all walks of life, they could have anything. Like, I don't want, I want to protect myself. Yeah. If they have a disease or just like, you just don't really want to get someone else's fluid on you, because that's just not pleasant.

Um, yeah. So you just kind of, you just deal with it. You, it's very much like, if anyone's a nurse, they would totally get it. nurses get very desensitized to poop. Because that's just part of the job and it's same with this. You just, you get used to it. That's crazy because that's a whole different world

to the kind of work I do. If someone was pooping on my table all the time, I'd be like, what the fuck? Why is my office friend shitting everywhere? Okay, this kind of off topic but I just want to ask really quick is what's like the biggest,

if you told someone about your job, like what do you think is a fact of or something that would surprise someone the most about your job? I think the one that I think shocks people is the amount of people that we get in every day, the amount of admissions we have every day. Because obviously everyone knows that people die all the time. But even me when I first started my first day of placement, I was like, whoa, that's a lot of people.

Yeah. Because you get like, I mean, there's not a set number obviously because it's not an exact sign. but yeah, like it's a lot. And you just don't really think about how many people are dying all the time. And so I think that's, I remember telling my mom about it. And she would ask like, oh, how many people do you have in today? And I'd be like, oh, like nine. And she was like, whoa, nine overnight.

I was like, yeah. Nine people. Yeah. And how, what's the average for, would you have like an average on a weekly basis? But you obviously don't serve the entire city. No, no, yeah. So there's, because there's three facilities. Does everyone who dies have to go through?

No. There's a set of legislation that's the Coroner's Act of 2009. I'm pretty sure it is. My God, she's done. She knows her shit. She's going to pass her last exams. If my lecturer is listening to this and I got that wrong, please don't yell at me.

I'm pretty sure it was Coroner's Act 2009. But yeah, there's a list of, like, reasons why someone would be admitted. So, because normally someone dies and then, Um, if it was, essentially if it was not in, if, if it wasn't expected for that person, if they weren't supposed to die or if they were going in for a routine operation and then died, that they shouldn't, that shouldn't have been the outcome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If they're in hospital or if they're in a government facility of any kind, like hospitals, if they're in custody, if they're in mental institutions, like anything like that.

If they're under the care of any government agency, then they get sent to us, even if they're in, they're in custody. they know what happened. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Because I thought you were about to say the opposite. And I was like, I'm sorry. If someone died in custody, I feel like I would want an examination of what happened there.

No, no. Yeah. Yeah. They all get sent. Yeah. And it's, so it's only really like if, because normally someone dies, they'll call up, the police will call up their doctor. Oh, I didn't know that.

And be like, will you sign off on this death certificate? You know, do you think they, do you think that they, this was what you expected for them. And a lot of the time, doctors will just say, yeah, if they've had, you know, if they've had terminal cancer for four years or something, they're going to be like, yeah, I'll sign off on that, that was expected. Or if they're 95, and they've got this host of health problems. Yeah, okay, I'll sign off on that. But I'm pretty sure that doctors can also, part of the Coroner's act is if you don't report, because they're called like reportable deaths. It's what the legislation is under. And if you don't report that as a doctor, you can get.

in quite significant trouble. So a lot of time we do get bodies in where you'll look at the history and they've got this massive long health history and they've been in hospital for two years or something and you're like, why are they here? Because that just progresses in the progress for the family. Like that body could have just been sent straight to the funeral home. They could have their funeral. Yeah. But yeah. It was a bit unnecessary. Like unnecessary grief and trauma. But they tend to err on the side of caution just because they don't want to lose their medical license. But yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's definitely some that you get in that don't need to be there, but not

every single person who dies will be sent to us. Okay, that is really surprising. There we go. We're learning more. And we've talked about how it's changed your perspectives on death. But something you said to me that really stuck with me when we were chatting before we started recording

was like, you could die tomorrow. Yeah. So how does it impact on how you live your life now? Obviously you want to be healthier. Yeah. You're a lot more present to every moment and being like, oh wow, life is really amazing. Yeah. But is there anything else that it's really impacted on it for you?

I think it's, yeah, it's a hard question because I think I've already, already as a person with my own, like, experiences, I've been very much, like, not taking life for granted. Like, I'm very much, like, a live in the moment kind of person. But, yeah, I do think it, yeah, I really, I just think that it, it just makes me appreciate life more. I'm not sure if there's really anything else. that it's affected in me as a person besides like the compassion like just more that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.

But maybe that's something you'll see as you get more into it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like I've only had this very limited kind of experience. Because obviously like I've done, I've done a three year, you need to agree. So I've like known what it was about, but obviously actually experiencing that every day for two weeks is a lot. Yeah, a lot more. Yeah. But yeah, I don't, I don't, it's hard to think of anything.

off top of head. I think I might just, it might be something that comes more with time. And is it a job that you see yourself doing for the rest of your life? We talked about this before. Yeah. Let's examine that a bit more. I, it is incredibly like exhausting both mentally and, I mean, I find it more physically exhausting than mentally, but I've been told by my lectures before that I am just a little bit strange in that nothing really grosses me out. really like even when I was on placement there was some cases where the experience technicians were like that's gross and I was like it doesn't really yeah bother me um but definitely like the

physical exhaustion and because that you know it makes me have this more appreciation for life it's like do I want to be spending my life working all the time because it's very because it's long hours because you know people are dying all the time and there's never any there's never any stopped that. There's always going to be people dying. And so if you, you know, we have the weekend off and then you come back on Monday and it's just massive. Yeah. You know, and I think that's, I don't know if I could see myself doing it for the rest of my life. Like, I love it. I really, really enjoy it. But then again, and it's very much like a job where it's like, that's the job. There's not really much more to, you can't really progress up in the fields unless you do like further study.

so like once you start like that's that yeah you know like that's not like a typical job or it's like maybe not a typical job but like some jobs where you can progress yeah i think about a lot of our friends work corporate jobs yeah for the public service and there's very clear promotional pathways and like areas to excel yeah and have more responsibility but i guess when you have all the responsibility you need when you're like when you're starting yeah exactly like yeah it's like well why i start working i'll be 22 and then why I'm going to do that until I'm like 60. Yeah.

Like that's a long. So I don't, I don't know really if I'll do it for it. But like I do enjoy it and I definitely want to pursue it more. And I do like the medical field. I think, I don't think that I would. Oh, I don't want to say that I wouldn't do anything outside of the medical field because I do enjoy my animals. Never say never. My other little side thing.

Yeah, exactly. And I would never want to like fully be like, no, I won't do anything else. but I do definitely, I see myself working in it. And I think the placement definitely made me more confident in that because, like, my supervisor was so supportive and they really helped me just feel more confident in myself. Yeah. And that little self-doubt that I had that maybe I wasn't, like,

skilled enough to do this job or it just wasn't for me like that. They really helped reassure that. And so I definitely see myself, like, working there for at least some period of my life. Yeah. Yeah. That's good to hear. Yeah.

So one of the last couple of questions I really want to ask you is we've talked about how it can be rough, how it can be physically and mentally training, but there's obviously a lot of rewards. What kind of, what do you do to unwind? You know, obviously seeing dead bodies all the time and being exposed to death can be quite overwhelming. Like what kind of supports you in your personal life to be able to do that day in, day out when you begin working? I have a really kind of strong network of. Well, I have a small amount of very close people in my life. Yeah. Like my roommates and my mom and my partner, like, I can talk to them about that.

And if I, yeah, I tell them about what I've been through. And like, obviously I can't tell them a lot of specifics for legal reasons because of confidentiality and that. But it's good to be able to tell them at least if I've had a rough day. And those people are very important to my life. And if I tell them that I've had a bad day, they will be there for me. And I also have quite a strong, like, rewind kind of. I really enjoy me time.

Yeah. I'm a very me time person at the end of the day. And I was telling you before, you know, I do my yoga. I have, like, a pretty strong, when I'm in a routine, I have a pretty strong, like, exercise kind of routine. Like, I keep myself, like, and the yoga for me is really nice. like I put on my meditation music and I just kind of step out of my head for a sec.

Yeah. And I think that's really important for me to unwind. Yeah, I think that's kind of the main thing. So like the, yeah, the connections that I have with my friends and family. Yeah. And so important. Yeah, exactly. Which I think is in anything is really important.

But again, that community actually in the workplace and being able to talk to everyone. And actually whilst at uni, I've, it's been really like, drilled into us like, to make sure you're okay. We had a whole lecture series one time about your mental health and making sure you're okay. And we have to do these like reflections as assignments, which is essentially just... How do I feel? Yeah, our lecture is being like, are you okay? Because even when I wrote a reflection earlier this year, I talked about some of my

personal experiences and how that was making me nervous to go on placement and continue in this career. But, and then my lecture actually reached out to me and was like, please come and talk to me about this. And then we arranged to have this one-on-one meeting. And we talked it out with her. And she was really lovely about it. So, like, it's been really good support from the uni.

But then again, in my personal life. But I think that's because I spend a lot of time, like, explaining to my family and friends, like, what exactly I'm doing kind of thing. So they understand it on a deeper level. Like, my partner knows everything about anatomy. Go off. He watches all my lectures like me and stuff. Yeah.

Yeah, so yeah, that's really good. And I think final question, you know, the whole kind of theme of this is like, this is unconventional. Yes, right? You're doing something that is so important to society, I think is really overlooked. Yeah. Like when it gets down to it, like, I think that was half my surprise when you told me like, I'm, you know, I'm a mortician or like, I'm a, what is the job? Forensic mortuary technician. Forensic mortuary technician.

And I guess if there's someone listening, maybe they found this episode because they're like, I actually want to do this. Yeah. Maybe they watch the same BBC series as you. Yeah. Oh, interesting. What would be like your one piece of advice? I definitely think to expose yourself.

Because on YouTube, actually, because it's educational, there is numerous videos of autopsies. What? Yeah. That's how I started watching them in high school. Like I had a favorite autopsy in high school because you can, like, you can, like, you can, It's the same way that if you've ever seen like birthing videos are on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because it's educational. So it's not a band. It's not gory. Yeah. Well, I mean, it is gore. It is gore for the sake of gore. Exactly. It's like a medical procedure.

Yeah. So definitely expose yourself to those things because the times that I was feeling doubts was during lockdown when I couldn't have any of my classes online. And I wasn't going into my like anatomy labs where we had, you know, the catabric specimens and that kind of thing. And that was when I was like, God, do I really want to be doing this? and it wasn't until then I was more in person again and started actually being exposed to like the bodies that I like really like reignited my passion because I love like I'm very

interested in the anatomy and like the science of it all. So I would definitely say that but also just making sure that like it's not going to be too much for you because that's like I said earlier that there's quite a high dropout right I think in this degree. Yeah. But you're like, again, you're never going to know until you try. And if you do have an interest, then that's good. But in saying that, I think that my degree is being canceled by my uni because they don't think there's enough.

How are you going to do? How are they going to do it then? I think one of my lectures wants to make it a master's program at a different uni or something. Like there will be a pathway, but it's, yeah, it's a very small field. It's definitely something that's hard to get into, I would say. It's not, well, first of all, it's not for everyone, but it's also, yeah, it's a very small, everyone knows everyone kind of thing. So, yeah. Think through your choices.

Yeah, and, yeah, and I think in the future it might be a bit harder. Like, I'm very privileged that I had the chance to do this degree because it's only been running since 2019, I think. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, very, it hasn't. Very amazing. Yeah. So, but I think, I believe they will do it. I know they do it in other states.

This is me talking New South Wales in general. Yeah. For the Australian audience. Yeah, for the Australian audience. This is not for an international. Because, well, the job is quite different in other countries anyway. Yeah. I can imagine.

Yeah. So it very much varies across the world. But yeah, I think that's kind of, yeah. If you really do have a passion for it, it's definitely worth it. Because it's an experience. Yeah. Because even the people I went on placement with, like I said, a lot of them might not even go and end up into this field. But they still went through the placement because what an experience.

Yeah. You know, it's not something that everyone else is going to do. It's going to do. Yeah, like 99.999% of the world will never know what it feels like. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for coming on. No, thank you for having me. It's been fine.

Yeah. Did you enjoy it? Yeah. Yeah. Did we all learn something? Hopefully. Oh, my gosh. Hopefully.

Oh, I think we probably do. I definitely. learn something. This is such a fascinating episode and thank you for just sharing your learnings and your experience. Thank you. And to be honest, it makes me feel a lot better about dying that someone's going to wash my hair for me. Exactly. When I'm dead. We all, we do really care. Yeah. Yeah. It's honestly really sweet. Like I yeah. No, that sounds strange to say maybe I don't think it's strange, but like for other people listening being like, oh, what, this sounds sweet. But it makes me feel really nice that like there is this sense of respect for people after

they're gone. 100% yeah. And that there's people like you who are passionate about that and willing to do that work. Exactly. Any final comments before we wrap up this lovely episode? Oh my gosh. Not really. But just thank you for having me.

It's been really nice. Yeah. Yeah. I really hope that people have, you know, learned something or at least found it interesting. Yeah. I did. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for listening. As always. Thank you to Laura. Thank you. And if you feel compelled and you really enjoyed this episode, share it wherever you feel. And leave a five-star review on either Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're getting your podcasts. And remember to subscribe. Thank you so much.

On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor?

It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern.

Two more men who'd been through the same. same thing. Greg, a lesbian, Michael Maranini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.

Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.