The Psychology of your 20s - 72. Attachment styles, non-negotiables and dating men ft. Chidera Eggerue

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

This week I am joined by Chidera Eggerue, otherwise known as the Slumflower, host of the Slumflower Hour and author of the Number 1 Sunday Times Bestsellers What a Time to be Alone (2018) and How to Get Over a Boy (2020) to discuss attachment styles, how to set boundaries and non-negotiables when dating men. We discuss the own hard lessons we’ve learnt through our intimate relationships, how to reclaim your power, the psychology behind why we accept the bare minimum and so much more. Listen now!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn.

the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice in so much, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWA percent on the IHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say

trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. I say this every time. I'm so excited for today's episode, but perhaps the most excited I've ever been because today we have a very, very special honored guest. Would you like to introduce yourself? Yes. Hello, everybody. I am Chedera Agarroo. I'm popularly known online as the slumflower. You may know me as the author of Water's time to be alone or you might even remember me as the creator of the viral movement hashtag saggy boobs matter if you are even newer here you might have discovered me from my podcast the slumflower hour and i'm super grateful and excited and pumped to be on jemma's podcast because we have

so much to dive into and discuss and i think this is just the perfect collision of worlds i could not agree more couldn't agree more this is the collab that needed to happen um and I would, like, Chedera is a legend. I have known about her since I was 17, 18 years old. It's a full circle moment. Honestly, I'm starstruck. Like, we've obviously spoken before, but I'm starstruck that you were willing to come on. I also think a huge shout out to her podcast, which she started at the end of last year. We're going to talk about it a little bit more, I'm sure, during the course of this episode, but if you are not listening to it already, I don't know what you're doing, because it's just, it's like the Bible. It's like an audio book of the Bible, but even better.

Do you want to describe how we met? I feel like that would be interesting. Oh, like, first of all, we have to give a very important shout-outs to Evie, who essentially, I feel like she brought us together. I feel like she was in both of our ears being like, you both need to be on each other's podcast you both need to speak you both need to meet and we had we ended me and jemma ended up jumping on a zoom together it was supposed to be just like a super brief call to just familiarize ourselves of each other and gloss through topics we might want to dive into and before you know it we were on we actually you know zoom's got this thing now where 40 minutes in it will give you like a countdown we literally waited for the countdown 40 minutes in and then we started a whole other zoom again

I think we were on for like two hours or something literally Yeah, it was 1 a.m. in Sydney when I finished the call and I was like, I could have gone for longer. And we talked about like, it wasn't like surface level information. It was like, we talked about childhood trauma. We talked about astrology science. We dived into our dynamics and our relationships with men. And then we decided that we were going to be best friends. So, um, welcome.

And that's the Pisces effect. That's the Pisces effect. Gemma's a Pisces. So when you're around people who are Pisces energy, like, you just feel like you can open up. And that's what happened. So I'm very happy to be here. And I'm really looking forward to our conversation. And I know we're going to touch on so many things that will relate to the listeners who I'm so grateful for. Yeah. You're absolutely right. And the thing that we really want to talk about today, it's kind of a nuanced topic. But something that I think to Dera, that you do really well is talk about

how we can almost relearn how we have relationships with men and how we can address the internalized misogyny and the patriarchy that kind of flows through all of us, especially people who identify as women, that impacts our relationship with men, that impacts our dating lives. And I think we're both women in our 20s, and it's so relevant to understand where exactly

our dynamics and how we approach relationships come from and to relearn some of those things that we've learned early in childhood. Like I know that you speak quite a bit about or you have spoken to me about your parental relationships and how attachment styles really do define how we approach dating. Do you want to talk a bit about this more? Because I feel like you had such an interesting perspective the other day. Yes. So when me and Jemar spoke on our Zoom turned adoption of each other, we were discussing attachment styles but I actually took it a step much further back and actually started talking about my relationship with my parents specifically my relationship with my mom so I'm pretty much towards the end of my 20s I'm 28 years old and I haven't been speaking to

my mother since 2018 so over five years and it's a decision that I came to on my own because I just knew that it was abusive, especially emotionally, and it continues to be that way, even though I've cut off all contact. And anybody who has had to unfortunately separate themselves from any kind of abusive relationship or situation, especially when the person presents a lot of narcissistic tendencies, knows that as long as that person is still on this planet, they will still find ways to try and reach you and assert their dominion over you. And so being a young person and making the choice to separate from my mother, really actually unknowingly informed the way that I approached men. And you'd think, well, how can there be any kind of comparison or connection between

dating men and having a mother? And you'll find that the way you were nurtured, the way that you were taught to receive love, the way that you were treated when you advocated for yourself, does set the tone for not just what you accept in relationships with men, but what you anticipate because if you experienced a lack of care and a lack of concern for your emotions from a primary caregiver like a mother, then when you go on to date men and you're still moving through the world with that lack, it often means that when you are seeking romantic partners, you usually go for what's familiar and oftentimes what's familiar doesn't have to feel good for us to feel comfortable. And that was what was happening to me throughout my 20s before I'd

realized what's going on where I would end up with men who would make me feel like I have to earn their validation. I'd find myself in situations with men where I would feel quite coerced into doing things with them. And I would even encounter conversations with men where it felt like I was basically begging them for love and proving why I deserve it. And it wasn't until my mid-20s that I started to make the link when I noticed that since I, I had removed the contact I had with my primary caregiver, I noticed that, okay, I've done the scariest thing being walking away from my own parent

and never speaking to them again. Now it feels way less scary to walk away from men who aren't good for me because there isn't that fear of, oh, but what if I don't experience the connection that I need anymore? Because I've already removed myself from what the world would consider the most important connection in my life and I didn't die from it. I'm able to tell this story now with ease

because I've already lived through the decision, but the decision itself to make it is not easy at all. But I would say that if you are somebody that in any way resonates with the story I've just shared, it's worth really observing the kind of relationship you have with your parents. And if you do have a parent or a caregiver that was abusive towards you at some point in your life, it's really worth your time to look deeper into that.

yourself, how has this enabled the way that I now allow things to just land in my life and not question any of it? How do I operate when I'm around men who present certain similarities that fire up this instinct in me to prove that I'm worthy of love? And what can I do to start practicing that risky feeling of walking away from men who aren't good for me? Because ironically, once you've separated from the main source of pain in your life, if that's main source of pain comes from a parent, everything else becomes easier to walk away from. And that's what I think a lot of people are struggling with. Because they haven't eliminated the main source of that deep pain, that deep trauma, that deep trigger, they're still getting

retrigured by people who don't even hold half the importance that the primary caregiver that initially created those triggers even holding their life. Oh my gosh. And that's, I think you're absolutely right. It completely is explained in many ways. by psychology. And I think just to say so much credit to you for making that decision, because we look to our parents, especially in early childhood and in our early development for everything. They are our source of life. And that explains why when we decide that we need to make that break from them, if that's something that you need to do, it's going to be so painful. That's the primary pain, right? That's the first round. And then the second.

round comes from having to unlearn what they've taught you implicitly and subconsciously about what you deserve. And there's a quote I always think of. Whenever I think about these things, whenever I speak to people like yourself or do research on this, and it's that what we seek in our adult relationships is what we didn't have as children. And it goes beyond that in that the relationships we have with our romantic partners, men, women, whoever, will replicate those early parental relationships we have because that is the model. That is the model for how we love ourselves. That is the model for how we let others treat ourselves. And the influence on our adult relationships is just it cannot be forgotten. And I don't think it can be downgraded at all.

And exactly what you said, right, it's, you find that when you are able to detach from that, from that primary caregiver, it becomes a lot easier to stand up for yourself. other relationships because you have already made that decision. You have already, it couldn't hurt you anymore. Your primary relationship with your caregiver or whoever it may be, your guardian, is one of the most fundamental. Everything else is in some ways secondary. I do have a question, though, because there's probably people listening to this who can really identify with you and be like, I actually need to do that. That's my relationship with my mother or my father or my guardian is really similar. Do you have any tips? Like, how did you go about that? And what did you find with some of

those key lessons that you learned along the way? So I'd say for anybody who might be listening and resonating and thinking, wow, this sounds like me. I think I've tolerated abuse from someone who was supposed to protect me and nurture me and love me. Well, when I was in the initial stage of, first of all, believing myself and believing that, yes, this is abuse, I didn't go down the route of confronting the person and being like, I've figured out what you're up to. I know you're trying to break me. Instead, I chose to give myself all the time I needed to mentally detach before I ended up eventually physically moving out. The mental detachment process was the longest and hardest. And I would say that process never entirely really ends. but how I approached that process was I started to really type, this is what I'm grateful for

with YouTube. There are so many people on there who share their own personal accounts about living with a narcissistic parent, living with a controlling parent, living with an abuser. And when I would watch those people's videos, I would notice so many similarities in what I was experiencing. And then I started to believe, oh, this is real and this is not an isolated experience. Okay, now the next step has to be really get into the nucleus of this. Like, why would somebody behave like this? Because now that I know that it's not because of me, I want to understand the background of that person, not to justify or support their behavior, but to understand the scale of what kind of almost monster I'm working with because it feels

like the person you love has been taken over by a monster that isn't them. That was how I used to see it as a child. I used to just think that a monster has mounted my mum. And that's why she hates me. Oh my gosh. Right. And so when I would research and see that, okay, this is a cycle of trauma. This is not entirely to do with me. But unfortunately, I am a reflection of my caregiver.

So they are going to upload their trauma onto me. Well, now I have to start putting myself in self-protection mode because I'm an adult and I need to see that there is a four-year-old child visual of me. and I need to step in and protect that child. So I did everything I could to equip myself with all of the psychological knowledge and support I would need to justify leaving because there were so many times that I almost talked to myself out of it.

And this is why people say that it takes on average, what's the statistic? I think it takes on average, like, is it seven or ten attempts to leave an abuser? Yeah, it's as high as like 20 sometimes. Like, it can take as many times as it takes and it took me quite a while to get over the emotion of feeling guilty. I think guilt is what stops most people from leaving

because you feel like now that you've researched and you've got all this information and you've noticed that, oh wow, this person is doing this, not because they are an inherently evil person but because there's something that's gone wrong somewhere down the line for them and they just never made the choice to address it. You start to feel bad.

for that person and then you start to justify and then you start to tell yourself, well, they haven't really got anyone else but me. But there's a reason why they haven't got anyone else but you and that's because they have... Oh, yeah, absolutely. They've destroyed all their relationships and you are up next.

So I stopped feeling as guilty and I think something a lot of people are worried about and this is ironically why most women just tolerate really horrible men is because you feel like if you really were to believe yourself and explicitly trust your observations, you feel like you're going to stop being the nice person that you are

because the idea of putting yourself first and leaving somebody right in their tracks when they don't expect it feels as evil as the abuser abusing you. And that's a false equivalence that we create almost as a way that, as a way to kind of create an excuse for yourself to still stay longer. But also because it's really scary to live, life on the other side where you've never known an existence that doesn't involve your primary caregiver's abuse. It feels like it's safer to just stay in the abuse and tell yourself that there's ways to work around it. You can just put your headphones in and ignore the shouting or you can always

just keep on living a double life. And it's not worth it. I think if people were to be told like exactly how many days they have left on this earth, like if we were all walking around, with a floating number above our heads that said how many days we have left on this earth. I think most of us would make the decision quicker to cut ties because it's like living your life on half speed, just like having an abuser in your life who knows that they have access to you because they gave birth to you and because they can. And when it comes to being a woman that dates men and feeling bad about leaving men behind, you have nothing to feel bad about we as women who date men feel guilty about even daring

to have a particular standard or having any kind of taste. So it's like going back to my initial point of what you learnt to tolerate as a child will definitely set the tone for what you believe you're deserving of and you have to quite literally go out of your way to make the effort to break that cycle of thinking and it's going to feel unnatural. But just because it feels unnatural doesn't mean that it's wrong. I think that is so difficult. Like what you said were it's like it, like we said, it takes so many times.

to leave an abusive situation. There's so many reasons behind this, right? They hijack our brains. There is a feeling that becomes associated with that person. And it's not just fear, it's not just worry or being scared. There's also the other side of the coin, right? It's how amazing it feels to be loved by them in the moments where they're not harming you, where they're not controlling you.

And something that I think is and often acknowledged is how much that is part of the abusive process. You know, you spoke about financial abuse, emotional abuse, social abuse, cognitive abuse. All of those things are things that are in many ways identical to the abuse that you would experience from a partner. But it's coming from a primary caregiver. You don't get another parent.

You know, you don't get another chance at that parental relationship, which was why I'm sure it would have hurt. so, so much. But on the other side of the coin is I'm sure there are probably moments in which you were like, oh, but maybe this is all right. Maybe I can deal with this. You know, I'm reliant on them for some form of security, some form of comfort. And I think that the other really important point that you raised there, which I think is so, so pertinent to what we're talking about today is how it creates our attachment style, right? Like the relationship you have with your parent, the relationship you have with your primary caregiver, it is going to directly impact how you're going to

attach yourselves not just to romantic interests, but to friends, to locations, to cities, to jobs. Because if you've been taught that love is not freely given, you're never going to expect that. And you're never going to welcome that, because that feels like fear to. you. And like I was saying, you know, someone gives you that attention, someone gives you that love, someone gives you that comfort in your previous situations with your primary caregiver, you know what's coming next. There's never love without fear. There's never love without hurt. And so when you grow up, when you become an adult, when you start to make your own family or make your own decisions around who's in your life, there'll be people who are going to offer

you loving, who are going to really care about you. And there's always that fear, right, that's kind of in the back of your mind, like, when's the other shoe going to drop? Because this is what I've learned to expect. Like, did you find that? I know that we talked about this a little bit about your attachment style. And I do think, like, the dialogue around it is sometimes skewed. And, you know, there's people who are, who will be like, right? Like, they'll be like, I have an avoid an attachment style. And I'm like, uh, really like, I feel like you just had a really bad boyfriend, like a really bad first boyfriend in high school. And I'm like, I avoid an attachment style comes from abuse, it doesn't, you know, it's a pretty strange condition. What did you say?

I remember you said you're pretty clear about your attachment style and I'd love to hear your explanation of it. So for the most part, I would say that especially while I was still living in the abusive environment and approaching dating as a very early 20-something, my attachment style back then would have been anxious preoccupied and how that shows up is when someone that you are maybe dating or fancy or are attracted to is talking to you whether it's texting you or maybe you're exchanging voice notes and then they go quiet you start to feel like did i do something wrong did i say something wrong does this person no longer like me am i in trouble and why i would make that what could be perceived as very dramatic link would be because as a child, I would get ignored for

like hours to days on end for making mistakes proportional to what a child is capable of doing. And it got me eventually into the conditioning that I deserve to be ignored and that if somebody is ignoring me, it's because I'm a bad person and I've done a bad thing. So growing up into an adult that now dates people, well, when that person would go quiet either because they're probably busy or they don't have anything to say or maybe because they just want to go quiet, I would take it to a very, very far away place and start to feel like I need to seek reassurance from that person. Maybe start asking them, did I do anything wrong? Do you still like me? Why have you gone quiet? Other times I might approach them in a more offensive manner because I feel quite insecure about them.

going quiet on me and I want to be able to deal the rejection before they get to make me feel rejected. And as I started to get older, I would say now at 28, I think I've shifted on the anxious attachment style sliding scale to more anxious ambivalent. And what I mean by anxious ambivalent is that now when I perceive mixed signals from a guy or hot and cold energy, I essentially feel myself like it's like a higher octave of the ick where I feel no more attraction to that person I kind of feel like my brain just desensitized. Oh yeah. That's like the perfect way to put it.

Like it is literally a higher version of the ick. Yeah. But it's like your brain compartmentalizing and being like, I don't want to get hurt. Yeah. And the easiest way for me to do that is completely detached. I love how you put that. Yeah. My brain just goes into, my brain's like, well, I mean, he's probably playing a game with you.

So whatever nice butterflies you were feeling last Tuesday, the butterflies are dead now. And we can go find something else to do. Like, I find it so easy to detach from men. And I'm not even saying it to brag and be like, yeah, I'm scissors hands up in this club. No, I mean, like, I can just chalk it to the game and be like, well, this person probably doesn't like me anymore. So if I most times end up being wrong in my perception of that person's silence and they come back and say something like, oh my God, sorry I disappeared for a while. I was handling things with my parents or sorry I was away. I was busy at work.

Then it almost feels like kind of refreshing at their back. It's like, oh, you're back again. Hey friend. Like I don't even bother with where were you? I'm not interested in you anymore. You disappeared on me. It's like, okay, this person's still around. Well, let's see how it goes.

Like, I'm in a very, let's see how it goes place in life. And, you know, there are people who are ambivalently attached and sort of towards the more colder described side of the attachment spectrum where, you know, it's mainly guys who are like that where they just don't even communicate anything to you. They just change their energy without updating you. And you just feel a bit lost. Like, oh, what's going on here? I'm pretty sure this guy told me that he wanted to, like, fly me out somewhere. Like, I'm sure you liked me. Like, I'm pretty sure you were flirting with me.

And now I've not heard from you in two weeks. Like what happened here? Yeah. And for me, right? Like, that switch was very swift. And I'm not sure about that. And for me, when guys do that, because the thing is, no matter how hard you've worked on yourself,

no matter how pretty you are, smart you are, funny you are, academically achieved you are, that is not going to stop a guy from acting funny towards you because you don't even know why a guy is attracted to you, especially if his intentions are to get supply from you. And what I mean by supply is like an ego boost or they just love the feeling of getting your attention because at some point they perceived you as unattainable. And now that they have your attention, you don't even see the value in your attention

because you don't view yourself in that way and you don't view other people in that way. But for a lot of these guys who might approach you and start acting very sort of like dismissive avoidant where it almost feels as though if you were to really. raise a concern, they flip it back at you and you feel like a problem for having a concern. For me, I find that trigger in because it just reminds me of, again, being in that dynamic with my primary caregiver and raising a concern and just being dismissed or being told that I'm making a big deal or just go shut up and go play with a toy or something, like just being dismissed. And when men make me feel dismissed, that's an instant disqualification.

Like, I don't even bother with trying to salvage that because it's not salvageable. Yeah, no second chances. Honestly, like, and you've, I feel like I, you might be at the stage as well where I'm like, I've learnt my lessons from this. I don't need to learn that lesson again. I don't need to be dismissed again. Like, you're 28 years old. And I feel like you're on this really healthy, almost like journey towards a secure attachment.

Like, that's what I'm hearing. I want to believe so. That's the goal. Because the other day, I took one of those attachment. there's these like attachment style tests you can take on the internet. Dara, don't do those online. Is it? Are they like, are they not good?

No, just talk to me, honestly. Don't do the online ones. I'm going to tell, oh my God, the online ones are a scam. I'm telling you this right now. But what did you tell you? You heard it here first, folks. Yeah, it's endorsed. It's a scam.

Yeah, but what did it tell you? Did it say you were secure? Well, it told me our secure, but I was like, I'm not going to believe that because I'm not. I don't want to just believe that I'm secure and not do any work on myself. So I'm going to tell myself I'm still anxious, ambivalent and I'm okay with that because the ambivalence has saved me way more than the preoccupied version of me has done. I feel like that is, that's on your way to secure, right? But then I think it's more of a personal thing about you where you're like, I cannot

stop working on myself because you are so cognizant of what happened in your childhood. And because you do kind of carry this added weight, this added emotional weight and added responsibility. because I feel like the thing that is the reason why you are able to spread so much truth is because you're committed to working on yourself and because you are able to see that link. So I think what you're saying is like, okay, I can't believe that I'm secure because that means that I have to stop working on myself and that's not something that I'll ever have to stop doing. That's something that is a continual process and I know how easy it will be to slide back.

I just, I just think it's so interesting. I would believe that it tells you that you're secure, but it's interesting that you don't believe it, that you're like, no. Yeah, the thing is, because it asks me, like, when I think about some of the questions it would ask, it would be like, do you feel okay with not hearing from anyone? And one time I think I ticked, yes, because I like to be on my own for a while,

and in theory, I'm okay with not being surrounded by attention. Or it will ask you things like... Because I'm an introvert. Yeah, or the prompts would be like, do you feel rejected if you don't hear from someone you care about? Like questions like that. And sometimes I might answer, yes, sometimes my answer no.

So because my answers were kind of 50-50, it kind of was like, you seem secure. The thing is, right, I feel like the reason why I reject the, yeah, the reason why I reject the computer telling me that I'm secure is because I still catch myself having human moments

where I'm like, this don't feel secure. Like, I do not feel secure with this man. And I know that it's not because I'm in, secure is because this man has not created a secure dynamic with me. He has not nurtured this. He has not watered this plant. Yes. So I'm not going to just because I'm being told that I'm secure, just like ignore my needs, like just because you're secure doesn't mean you're not going to have needs. And also another thing that I learned is that you can be a person that has a secure attachment style, but there's still like an underlying secondary attachment style that's like waiting,

simmering underneath where if you're triggered, if you're around somebody who is very rejecting of you who blows hot and cold, that will activate the attachment style that you have healed from. So in my case, if I'm around a guy who is very, very hot and cold, ambivalent, laying it on heavy, then just disappearing, that will provoke me to feel somewhere between, like, anxious, preoccupied, where I'm preoccupied about, you know, trying to figure out what's going on here, but also ambivalent enough to be like, I am liking this guy less and less now. I don't give a fuck. And it could be argued that, because, you know, I go back and forth with my therapist about this,

where I'm trying to not be that person who is like so cynical and closed off from love where I don't really give anything or even give myself a chance to feel the butterflies and feel goofy in love. And the thing is I get it. But at the same time, I'm not in a hurry to just like relax into a love that hasn't been securely built. Like everything from the foundations through to the windows, through to the notches on the doors, Everything needs to be in place before I relax into that because I just don't think men are okay.

And if you're someone that dates men, you can't afford to just relax and trust into them loving you without you having seen that this is somebody who does their own work on their own accord without any external prompt from you. Once I come across a person like that, which I've come across in my friendships with men, I can be so relaxed and feel so loved around men. Like I have such loving friendships with the men in my life that I do know that it's, possible to find men that are working on themselves. But just because it's possible doesn't mean that I'm going to project that possibility onto every man that I'm attracted to because you can be attracted to someone and you can get on really well with them. But for some reason, once things get to a more serious place and you notice that they're not giving you the energy that you perceived that you fell in love with, you have to believe what you're perceiving because most people go off

of the version of the man that they met two years ago. But I'm always, I'm always big on who is he right now that's the man you need to make a decision on who is he right now not who he was two years ago when he was giving you vibes and giving you hugs and making you feel good who is he right now how do you feel right now and I totally agree it's actually so interesting that you talk about almost being like

I do want to fall in love right like that is something that I want I want that lovey feeling once you are able to it's not really like a vetting system I wouldn't call it a vetting system but it's almost like for a lack of a better word it's like I think

it's a better system exactly because it's like I actually I think that's something Quality control Quality control Oh man Quality control Men need to go through a few rounds of that

They've got to meet the friends Oh my God And one extra one for safety Yes Literally literally I never go to a man's place For the first like two months that I'm seeing But the thing that I've found

is that like I think at the end of last year, and tell me if you felt this at some point in your life as well, I had my heartbroken by someone who treated me terribly, and I went to the absolute opposite end of the deepest steps of cynical, where I was like, I am completely determined that I can be alone for the rest of my life, and any form of love is going to hurt me. And it was really sad, because I am someone who wants to be loved, and I know you're someone who wants to be loved as well. it's a human instinct to want that for ourselves. But I was so like protective of myself.

And it was almost like a barrier that was established out of fear to be like, I don't want to be hurt. I don't want someone to break down this barrier. I don't want someone to put me through this pain again. And it was something I had to unlearn, which was like, how can I, I don't need men, but I want them. And I know that like partnership is a beautiful thing. That's the important sentence though. Yeah, you think so? I don't want men.

I don't need men, but I want them. Yeah, because you know what? Even the cynicism you're referring to, I believe personally that anybody who has allowed their self to go through the stages of separating from an abuser will inevitably at some point be met with that stage of cynicism. And I do think that's part of the healing process because your body and your mind,

just your whole being needs to learn and experience what it's like to be independent. and to thrive on your own. But I think the next stage after cynicism is kind of like still acknowledging that, you know, men might not be the source of the love that you deserve, but it doesn't mean that you're never going to find love in this world. And in my case, it's kind of like that's where I learned how to lean into my community. And that was where I learned how, and part of why I feel so empowered to even have, standards when it comes to men is because of my cynicism where it's like, well, I'm so chilled

out in my cynicism that I'm open to being surprised. This is an invitation for you to surprise me. I'm not saying that men can't ever be great. I'm saying except the challenge then. I love that. Like, I'm open to being surprised. But until that happens, I will remain on my frequency of healthy cynicism where I'm not going to be carried away by the fluttery feelings of a man liking me, I do think that if you're somebody that is very, very empathetic, hypersensitive, easily, um, easily absorb absorbing of other people's like pain and wounds, you do need to have like a cynic, like a cynical kind of sheet of film. It's like an invisible sheet of film that you can just put on temporarily, but remember to take it off. Like, you don't have

to live your whole life in a cynical place, but anybody who has been around draining, narcissistic people knows that when you come across that grandiose eccentricity in a lot of men, you do have to be a bit cynical. And it's not a bad thing. It doesn't mean that you're this person that's like, you know, you're so negative and you can't find joy in anything anymore. It's like, no, I want to see what this person is about. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And I think women deserve to be cynical in a world that like spins against them in a world where men continue to use us. Like, I think cynicism is a much better place to land than all women being vengeful. And I love what you said before about, and I honestly am like waiting till we're done to go and journal this. But like, you're allowed to be surprised. I had not thought about that. Like, you're allowed to be surprised.

And I've had these conversations with friends of mine. So my friends, my closest friends are all in relationships with men that I think are amazing people, who I would actually count as friends. friends. But I was having this conversation. We've talked about this before, but I was having this conversation with my friend and they were like, you're in your misandry. You're on your man hating error. And you've got to get through it. And I was like, and I remember being like, okay, I'm kind of offended. And she said to me, she was like, I cannot wait till the moment where I get to meet the love of your life. And I was like, why? Why? Why can't you wait? Like, obviously, like, that would be exciting. But I was like, I would much rather be single until I was 35. And,

then find someone who really suited me. And like, this is the thing to Dara, like, we are pretty impressive, independent, powerful women. We are self-starters. Yes, we are. And that's facts. It is. Yeah. Facts. We're educated. We're incredibly, like, we have an impact. And that's an amazing privilege, right? But it also means that when I look around at people who could potentially add to that, like, there's not much that I couldn't do for myself. And, And there's not much that I couldn't provide to myself. So I feel like when you were talking about that analogy of making sure that all the hinges on the door, right, the windows, like the secure foundation of a relationship, I would much

rather find that at 35 and spend the next like decade or less of my life being alone, then think that I found that now, you know, end up at 35 and realize that I was completely misguided. And, you know, my house is falling down and I've got to rebuild. I just think it's like it's worth the way. it's worth the sacrifice and it's not even a sacrifice right like our relationship with our self is the most important i was going to say sometimes you can't even you can't even rebuild a collapsed house you end up having to just relocate and uproot your life all over again i see this happened to women time and time again where you know they got married to the guy that gave them

the butterflies and then they got married and then they realized that they were love bombed essentially and now they're spending five years in a divorce process and you know they're now left with this what was once a house that had, you know, the door hinges were talking about and the foundation, you realise all of it is broken and doesn't even work. You can't, there is not even any resale value to it. You just got to abandon that thing and just start again and move elsewhere. And what you were saying about, the joke your friend made about you being in a misandry era. So for those who are listening and might be wondering, what does misandry mean? Misandry is a term that was coined to essentially mean hating men. But what's really interesting

is that I get called a misandrist all the time, mainly from men, surprisingly from women too, and usually men call me... From women? Yeah, I get women telling me that I'm a misandrist and that I hate men, because obviously men conflate accountability with hate, but also because the idea that a woman would be consistent in her disgust for men must mean that she hates them and it must mean she's a bad person, because the misandry label is about your morality. Whereas when a man is called misogynistic, it's not because he's a good or bad person,

just because he just like has that particular line of thinking. So in my case, what I find interesting is that I'm yet to meet someone that can just quickly, very quickly, just show me where and how men are affected by misogyny in a way that is material, societal and physical. Like nobody can show me how men are marginalized because of misogyny. The violence that women experience across the world at the hands of violence. men, it's determined by the societies that you live in and how men enable other men to continue. So, yes, if men want better stories told about them, one, they should behave better.

And two, you don't really get to push someone and tell them where to fall. They see you having boundaries as violence towards them. They see you not wanting to sleep with them as hate speech. Oh my God, that's literally, I was going to say, like, That's exactly what that reminded me of. It's like, okay, so I'm in my man-hating error, air quotes there, as my friend described it. And if she's listening to this, I do love you. You're just will misguarded.

But like, I'm in my man-hating era, right? What's the worst that's going to happen to someone because of that? You know, I'm not going to have sex with you. I'm not going to, like, talk to you. I'm not going to give you my attention and my love. Do you know what it makes you realize as a man is how much I actually give to you? And what happens to you when I take a. it away. That is the worst consequence that you're going to realize. And I hope that it's a good

lesson, right, to realize that I'm actually a very valuable, I'm a valuable person. And you might notice what I'm not there, but most of the time, you probably won't. And the opposite, like, when you think about the misogyny that's lodged against women, it's a lot more tangible. It's a lot more tangible than you're not getting to have sex with me. And most of the rebuttals I get from people, whether it's men or women, you know, against my ideologies trying to imply that me not having the time of day for men is harmful towards them. All these ideologies end in. Women are just supposed to give men more access to our body so that they can stop feeling bad about themselves. And that I was telling you about

that email I got the other day from this person, I am not, I would not. I would not say that I'm a highly controversial person, right? Like, yet this person, and even if I was, I still didn't deserve this. I think that I am sometimes cautious about sharing a lot about my personal life. Like, I think that people who listen to me understand, like, the basic narrative of the last three years of my life, right? But they don't understand, they don't know me. They don't know who I am. And this person sent me, this guy sent me this email. And it was a essentially being like, I hate you. I think that you are the worst person in the world. You are the reason why I, this man I've never met, can't get a date. You're the reason that women are so misguided in society.

And it was almost 800,000 words long. And I had to receive that email. I'm just going to say, I have never sent anyone, like anyone, something that hateful, that they had to read and they had to remember. And I was like, I made one, you know, statement about how I'm setting boundaries for myself and about how I'm going to date the right people in 2023. And you equated that with me absolutely ruining your life. Well, doesn't that tell you then that like men are the lonely ones, men are the real ones who have got a ticking time bomb over their heads. Anything that they've projected onto us is actually their reality. And those projections include the idea that as a woman, you're going to end up on your own

if you don't give in to a man's dominion and as a woman you're going to be super miserable if you don't marry a man and oh my goodness you're single, I bet you're secretly lonely when actually the reality is most men can't live without the physical touch and validation of a woman.

That's why a man from across the world has told you that you have ruined his life by you just hypothetically expressing that you want to date better people. And in my case, I get actual incels commenting on my Instagram posts saying bring back Andrew Tate, we need more Andrew Tate's in this world. And that to me is insane.

Like Andrew Tate has just been arrested on suspicion of sex trafficking women. And even outside of him being arrested on such heavy suspicions, he's been making content for years where he has amassed and assembled a physical community of men who have all been taught to do the lover boy method, which is what Andrew Tate explains verbatim on his own website, how to essentially coerce a woman into sexually working for you, which to me is deplorable. And when men see me making content encouraging women to just like,

you know, that whole thing men say where they're like, well, since you're having such a hard time with men, then date better men. Well, I'm here trying to encourage women to date better men. And then men are being like, actually we need more Andrew Tates. Actually, I think you need to die. Oh my God, I hate that they say that to you.

But like the common thing of like not all men. And then when you're like, okay, so not all men, let's find the men that are good. You know, like I said, you don't need. But you might want. And they're like, you're absolutely misguided. You're absolutely wrong. It doesn't work both ways. Like you can't have it both ways.

You can't make these generalized sweeps in the positive and the negative. That it's not all men. But then when you talk about like wanting. to teaching women and teaching folks to date better people, they're like, well, why do you need to do this? Well, isn't it ironic that men will not all men you to death until they have a daughter, then they're going to teach their daughter, stay away from boys, stay away from men, and I'm going to get a shotgun.

But I thought it was not all men, because if it's not all men, then how come we see that common trope repeated time and time again where once a man has a daughter, the men around him are like, well, you better get a shotgun. Why? I thought it was not all men. So it is all men. So you agree. Yeah.

Are you a hypocrite or what's going on? No one's been able to give me the answer. Like what's the truth? Yeah. Like they literally are not people you can take seriously with your life, with your expenses, with your future until they prove otherwise. None of my messaging has ever been from the place of men are ultimately bad people. You're never going to find happiness.

Rather is that you have got to make your own effort as a person. to have a quality control system in place. And that involves a period of you being on your own for a while. You're not going to find the best guy for you by chance and by fluke. It's like it involves consciously listening and consciously watching that person's behavior to see if their words and their actions line up. It's a conscious effort. You can't just let it happen by chance.

Yeah. Oh, I absolutely agree. And like I have another friend who I think is an excellent example of this and has an amazing partner. And I think you're absolutely right. Like when you talk about we're not making, it's, your messaging has never been, well, we should create a female only commune and learn how to procreate on our own and like eradicate men. Like it's, it's not the messaging. It's that happiness, I think in many ways and happiness in relationships, especially if you're someone who dates men, has to come from a place of agency and has to come from a place of responsibility. And

an accountability to yourself of like, okay, this is actually what I want. I can settle right now and I can be in a relationship in which I am deeply unhappy. My needs are unsatisfied. In some cases, it could even be oppressive or abusive. Or you can take the time to recondition yourself and relearn what you need to learn because I think that's the other thing, right? Like a lot of men are conditioned and men are indoctrinated, but women are equally told to be very passive and told to be nurturing and to overlook and that if they are lonely or if they are alone or if they are without a partner, that's something inherently wrong with them. And I don't think that that's the case. I would love to hear your perspective on how you go about that, like how you go about setting those

boundaries, how you go about selecting someone or vetting someone who is the right person for you. So for me, I have my non-negotiables and my non-negotiables are the type of non-negotiables that will warrant me getting the kind of email that Gemma got, where a man was. was sending her 1,000 words essentially telling her to go die. So my non-negotiables are definitely, you have to have, you have to have your finances together as a man. It doesn't sound very nice,

but that's the whole point. Like, you need to have that together because I'm not looking for a man who needs to be taken care of by me financially. I'm in a place where I'm taking care of myself financially, so it'll be nice to be partnered with somebody who has that area of their life sorted.

That doesn't mean that that person is going to be perfect just because their finances are sorted. I mean, we come across people all the time and stories in in the news all the time of people who come from wealth still experiencing depression. So part of why financial comfort matters to me is because having money alleviates a lot of problems and it allows me the ease to maneuver society and maneuver my life in a way that grants me access to the help I need. That's an excellent way to put it. Yes. And I think the least a man can do is bring ease to my life or else I'm better off just

on my own really and just having friends that I'm generally enjoying my life with. Another non-negotiable for me is that he can't be a man that enjoys doing that whole gotcha moment thing men like to do, where they try and argue you out of your own ideologies when they call themselves male feminists. I gravitate towards men who live with those values. Most of the men who I know that actually exude feminist values don't call themselves feminists. They don't even engage with the theory or talk much about it. They just treat me and the women around them in a way that shows that they care and that this is a choice that they're making. Another non-negotiable for me is I can't be with a guy who is controlling. Whether a guy has money or not, you still need to be a really fucking awesome person and that has

to be an effort that you have put in by yourself. And when, you know, people hear me having this list of non-negotiables, the immediate instinct is how dare you? Like, as a woman, how dare you? How dare you decide that you are going to have a filtration system. But the real question should be why not? As somebody who sits on the anxious, ambivalent positioning of the attachment spectrum, I have to fight the hyper-independence that I have where I'm very used to being on my own. So actually, how I practice learning healthy interdependence is to accept care and accept help from people who love me.

So if I say I want a guy who has money, it's because I'm learning. to accept that I deserve help or learning to accept that I deserve support or learning to accept that I am worthy of somebody who wants to enable me to have an easy and fun life. And it happens for people all the time. And if it feels good, let it feel good until it doesn't. Like I don't believe in when things are in a nice place of a guy, constantly being like, but what if it goes wrong? But what if he does this?

Rather, I'm going to let it feel good. And if he does something that shows otherwise, I'm also going to believe myself when I perceive that and I walk away knowing that, well, things are fun until they weren't and that's on you, buddy. You know what's interesting is that when you were talking about, like, I want to date men with who can support himself. Like, you don't have to provide reasoning for that. You know what I mean?

Like, I feel like often when I give my non-negotiables, maybe you find the same, I'm like, oh, but it's for these reasons. Yes. It's for these reasons that I want this. And it's like, why can't I just say that that's what I want? Why can't I just make that stuff? And as someone who has, I'm in a completely out myself here, only ever dated men who are not financially stable. And should dare not judge me.

I'm learning. I'm not judging because it be like that. I know. And you just like so spoke to my soul there where it was like, because I am so hyper independent that there's someone who I can mother. And I'm able to make the financial decisions in some way. I, I, I, the men that I've dated have never had jobs. Isn't that ridiculous? I've, I taught one of them how to drive, multiple of them, how to drive. And I think it's because I naturally seek this matriarch or maternal role with these men. And I've had to one learn that, you know, I'm actually not your mother. I'm actually your partner. I'm your romantic interest. I remember one, time going on a trip with someone and I paid for the entire thing. And he paid for one thing, one thing. And it was something that we actually didn't end up using. And he started complaining

about how, you know, we didn't use that. We didn't like end up using that thing. I think it was like a fruit. I think it was like a freeze dried meal. We were like camping or something like that. And he was like, we didn't use that. Like my contribution went to waste. And now I look at it and I was like, oh my God, I completely changed you. Meanwhile, you paid for the bulk of it. I paid for everything. And I was like, okay, but you actually never said thank you. And also, I now realize I would rather not do that.

And I don't need to give you a reason. I don't need to give anyone a reason. This is just the standard that I'm setting for my life, the same way that men are able to create standards for their life and no one ever questions it. So I just think it's one of those things that has... No one's ever made a man explain. Okay, so when you say you don't like fat women,

what does that mean? Or when you say that you're the head of the household, what does that mean and how can you validate? Everyone just accepts it and you see women literally losing weight for men. You see women literally who are career women making themselves smaller for men. You see women who are like us,

super accomplished, like you explain in your story, dating men who are far below your level and it almost feels like you have to make up for how far behind they are by cutting yourself into smaller pieces. And that's still not enough. It's still not enough for them. That's why I'm like,

you're better off on your own live in that healthy cynicism of knowing that most men are not built to even live up to your greatness but the men who are built to live up to your greatness are out there you have to keep open to that but also you need to expose yourself

to environments where you're likely to meet those kinds of men for you to even meet the kind of man that you envision yourself being with do you have the confidence to hold your own do you have the confidence to believe that you're worthy of the kind of man that you deep down deserve

because if you've only been tolerating men you have to look after and you finally come across a guy who actually has the means to bring this experience to your life that you've been longing for. Anyway, so you've got enough, if men feel bold enough to ask you for pussy, don't be scared to ask them for shit either. We're scared to ask men for staff. Meanwhile, they are extracting emotional labour for us from us every day and we're teaching them to drive for free.

Don't add me on that. Meanwhile, we're scared to look. No, but it's real. There are some, I've been there. I've been, most of my dating history until I realized who I was, was me picking man that I had to look after because it's about control as well. It's about feeling like, well, this guy can't leave me because look at what I've done for him. Well, jokes on you because you can do everything for a man and he will still leave you.

Oh, yeah. And you'll be beside yourself. Like, how? I know. Oh, my gosh. Gerard. I just feel like you've, like, peered into my brain. And I don't think it was, oh my God, that is so painful.

I don't think it was a control thing, right? Like, I don't think I was sitting out there being like this. I think it's the thing where it's like exactly what you were saying. Like people just, there are people who are going to meet in your life, romantic interests, or whoever, who are going to want to give you what you give to others. And I think sometimes I find it so unnatural to be like, okay, well, this is actually what I love doing for people. I love giving them everything, like being really generous with my final. finances with my time, with my energy, how come I can't accept that they might want to give that back?

And how come it's hard for me to realize that? And, you know, you can call it personality, you can call it your upbringing, whatever it is. I just think it's something that you have to unlearn. And when you do get to the point of being able to be realistic about, you know, what you expect from others and what you're willing to accept from others, everything becomes a lot easier. And you are able to establish those relationships that are two-sided. Right. And even what you were saying about being someone that it's in your nature to be generous and giving, I'm the same. And to anybody who's listening who might be thinking, so should I just like stop being a generous person and like stop sharing? No, just be more conscious of who you share that side of yourself around. That's it. That's how you have a quality control process. Like, you don't have to stop being who you are. You just have to learn that some men only deserve the 30 day free trial version of you. And once that 30 day free trial version of you. And once that 30 day free trial, trial has ended, they'll be blocked out of nowhere. Like, you got your trial, you didn't do much with it. Sorry, dude. Like, got to keep moving now. Your free trial has actually expired.

These guys don't deserve that goddess mother nature energy. Like, save that, please save that for the dude that has worked too for Nel for it because that energy you have can change a man's life. Dude from across the street wearing a checkered thermal shirt. and vans does not deserve that. He will be fine. He will be fine. If you was to, God forbid, fall down and die right now, he will find somebody else to provide him with the supply that he's looking for.

I feel like this is a really good place to wrap up. Because if you're not tired of us already, if you... I know. But I'm going to promise this to my listeners right now, we will be doing a part two. Because this was such an engaging conversation. Oh, hell yeah. Prepare to be sick.

of us. I honestly, I only just looked at the time then and I was like, oh my God, we have been speaking for an hour and a half about everything and anything. And I think that's just an amazing thing. And I hope that you have enjoyed whoever's listening to this being a fly on the wall for this conversation. And if you found it controversial, well, I'm so sorry, come back for part two and we can enlighten you a little bit more. I was just going to say on my end that I really hope that anybody who's listening who resonated with this and is maybe in a stage of realizing that they deserve better, do not try and take extreme steps to completely transform your life overnight. This is a process. Baby steps are still steps. Take your time because detaching from any

kind of abuser is literally like removing chewing gum from a denim jacket. You have to be really careful. It's a very intricate process and be kind to yourself because there will be relapses, but just know that with each relapse, you're still progressing. So just focus on moving forward every day and remembering that one day it's not going to be like this anymore. And that's the day you just got to keep living for. Yeah, that's a beautiful way to put it. I think that's exactly spot on.

You know, there's nothing in life that's promised other than change and there will be a day that you feel all right. So I want to thank to Didera for her amazing insights. And I'm going to just say her podcast, is one of the best I've ever listened to. It is incredible. Thank you so much. And it's honestly true.

I've been listening to it on my way to work, at work. And I just think that if you enjoyed this conversation, even if there were times where you didn't agree with what we were saying, just go and listen to it. Because I just feel like it is essential listening for anyone, especially women who are in their 20s, who are dealing with the same questions that we grappled today. So, Chedera, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me, Gemma. And to anybody who's curious about my podcast, The Slumflower Hour, it's essentially for any woman who dates men that is a little disobedient. Like, if you're a disobedient woman who deep down, you just, you need that enabling to step into your power, then the Slumflower Hour is the podcast for you. But until then, I give you my love. Thank you for listening to this incredible conversation.

with myself and Gemma, and I hope that this has sparked enlightening you to remember that you deserve to choose the life that you live rather than settle for it. Yeah. Thank you so much. And just a reminder, if you did enjoy this episode, please feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. And if you want to be involved with the community, if you want to follow along, see when merchandise is released, new episodes are released, Please follow at that psychology podcast. And I hope you have a lovely day. Thank you for listening.

Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen and learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins.

But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian. Michael Mancini. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter.

And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO% on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist,

They take matters into their own hands. I vowed I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.