The Psychology of your 20s - 76. Hookup culture and casual dating in your 20’s ft. Louise Rumball

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

This week we dive into the psychology behind hookup culture and casual dating in our 20’s. We are joined by the host of The Openhouse Podcast, Louise Rumball, as we discuss the cultural and societal changes that have contributed to this sexual liberation, what happens to our brain during and after a hookup, empowering ourselves through pleasure but also healthy boundaries and the science and personal stories behind why casual dating may not be for everyone. Listen now!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Before we jump in, I just want to note this episode involves discussions around sex, so listener discretion is advised. Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. It is so amazing to have you here back for another episode, one that I am very, very excited about.

We have a very special guest coming on board who I will introduce to you soon. but today we're going to talk about hookup culture in our 20s. It is so relevant. Our 20s are a time for sexual exploration, casual dating, casual hookups. I think for most of us, I would say we have had some experience in this area, be that just making out with someone at a party or something more intimate. It is, I would say, a fairly normal part of growing up, of our learning experience, discovering what we like, what our limits are, what we're into, what kind of dating we enjoy,

what kind of relationships we enjoy. But maybe, like me, you come out of it feeling kind of worthless, maybe wanting more. It's definitely not for everyone. And I really want to talk about how hookup culture doesn't always line up to that empowered ideology we've been told. It's obviously an entirely personal preference, so no need to be ashamed of, if you are a fan of hookup culture, if you're not, it is for everyone to make their own opinion. And as Louise, our guest always says everything today is delivered in a sex positive way. Do what you want. We're not here to shame anyone.

More so just kind of explore this kind of dynamic and the cultural, sexual phenomena of hookup culture and kind of deep dive into the psychology. So we're going to talk about the oral. origins of hookup culture, how it has emerged from many social and cultural transitions, why some people are more into hookups in casual sex than others, how it makes us feel, our brains on casual sex, and how you can go about navigating the sometimes complicated terrain of hookup culture. But without further ado, I would love to introduce our honoured, on a special guest, Louise, would you like to say hi? Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I am so, so enamored and obsessed by all of the work you do. And just to everyone

listening, I think it's so cool that you're listening. I think there is nothing sexier, cooler, more amazing than like doing the self-work and looking inwards. So I'm so excited to go on this journey with you today. I have so much to share. It's going to be a fun one. And I love how you bring the science and the psychology and all of the sources, you know, very trustworthy, reliable. So can't wait and thank you. Yeah, I am so excited. I feel like we're going to have a bit of an overshare today. For those of you who don't know, Louise, is the host of an incredible podcast called Open House

or the Open House podcast. You talk a lot about, you know, the intersections between relationships and you talk about therapy, you talk about sex, you talk about pop culture, so many amazing things. So I think you are the perfect guest for this episode. Thank you. Yeah, I've definitely got a lot of stories in the dating world, the sex world, the good, the bad, the sad. You know, I've cried so many times after sex. Like, we're going to just get into the realities today.

But also the beautiful. I think we're going to cover everything. And I'm really excited to see where this goes with you today. Yeah. Well, I think that's one of those things, right? where we all know that hookup culture is part of our, even our teenage years, but definitely our 20s for those of us who choose to partake, as I know that both you and I have at various points in our life.

But there is still, I think, some stigma, but also not always a clear or a bit of an ambiguous understanding around what it does to our brains, why we leave certain casual, sexual dating interactions, feeling really worthless about ourselves. But I think it's also important to acknowledge that we have experienced these massive cultural and societal shifts recently. You know, it previously used to be that casual sex was not permissible. You got married, you had children, if you were a heteroperson, and you had sex within the confines of a married relationship. and there has been that massive shift recently. Like, I'm sure that's something you can speak to as well.

Like, what do you think some of those major reasons are behind why this process has kind of taken place? Definitely. I mean, you're right with the massive social and cultural shifts. And I think that so much of that has been driven by not only like the sexual liberation move in the 60s where people started to really, you know, let go of those constraints that people had lived with for so long and moved. more into this space of freedom and love and also like acceptance of their bodies and really

like leaning into that which I think is really beautiful. I think that set the foundations for this but there's still stigma around that right if you look back at the 1960s you know it's like oh flower power like everyone was like having sex with everyone like the way that we talk about it is still with an angle or like a lens of shame which I think is so interesting but what I also think is so interesting is that I think that culture today has romanticized and fantasized all of this. Like if you watch a movie, they fall in love, they kiss, they have sex, you never hear them talking about like, do you want to do this? Like, have you got protection?

Like, what are we going to be after this? You never see any of these discussions. It's just this romance whirlwind. And, you know, we just have picked that up from as young as we can remember with every. every movie, every relationship, celebrity relationship that we've ever looked at. I just feel like the media around us has sort of romanticized this whole hookup culture. And sometimes the truth is that it isn't quite as romantic as we want it to be. I totally agree.

And like the point you make about how the media, like we get a lot of our sexual education from the media. But I think you have an amazing point. Right. We had that sexual revolution. Birth control became more accessible. so you didn't have to worry about unwanted pregnancies out of wedlock. But I feel like we still have those very traditional concepts about what a relationship should look like. We're still very much a monogamous society.

The majority of us would say that we want a monogamous relationship. We think about marriage. We want to have children in a stable relationship. That's still something that's very much ingrained within us. but our kind of values and our attitudes towards sex haven't, have kind of sped up a little bit further in that process. And we haven't really been able to catch up in that sense. And it's all been, like you said, actually, romanticised by these movies,

which show like someone falling onto the bed with their like really hot movie star partner. They just met in the bar and like they just like have this crazy sex and it's always really, really good and really fulfilling. I don't think I have ever seen a scene in a TV show in a movie where there has been the like, what are we conversation? Never. Or like someone's been like talking to their friends around like, oh, like I hooked up with this guy once and now I like have lots of regrets

or I feel really bad. And, you know, most of the time their friends are like, oh yeah, like single girl sleigh. Like, oh, like go for it. Like you've left your husband, whatever. There's all these tropes around it. And we haven't really caught up to that. And like, I know that you spoke about this before and we've spoken about this before.

But casual sex or casual even just like hookups, like making out with someone, like cuddling someone, doing anything else, can leave us feeling kind of empty in a way that isn't always seen in kind of the glamorized movies that we've watched since children. Yeah. And just to build on that, because you mentioned cuddling. And I think this is one of the things that I've done a lot in my own therapy. but also spoken about on my podcast is that often I find, and I don't know if you've experienced this, that sometimes, honestly, looking back at a hookup, all I actually wanted was a cuddle.

Like sometimes all I wanted was like some intimacy to maybe just be making out with them. You know, it's so fun to be like hooking up with someone in a bar or on a night out or on a date or whatever that is. And then sometimes everything sort of just runs away with you and everything picks up speed and you don't really know this person. and then it's kind of hard to have that conversation before it happens, much like you said.

And then it happens, whatever it is, whatever part of the encounter that is. And then the next day, all of a sudden, you wake up to the stark reality of, oh, my goodness, you know, that actually, all I wanted was a cuddle and some attention. And then the next day you feel like really empty. And I think at some point maybe we can go into what that empty feeling is because everyone says, oh, I feel empty or I felt used. The truth is there's so much behind that. And it's a really, really important thing for us to just all unpack.

And sometimes you're right. You just want to cuddle. And I think there is this expectation, right, because we've become more sexually liberated, which is an amazing, amazing thing. But there is always this expectation of like, okay, intimacy equals sex now. Intimacy equals some form of like, yeah, sexual encounter,

which sometimes it's like, we actually don't want that from someone. We actually want platonic intimacy or we want some of the form of intimacy. And I think it's also worth acknowledging if you're listening to this being like, no part of casual sex sounds good to me. Or maybe you're someone who's like, oh, I love casual sex. This is super fulfilling. That's also totally normal because I think people are really different in kind of what we desire

from our sex lives, what we desire from our romantic kind of person. suits. I was telling the ways earlier about this personality measure called sociosexuality. And it kind of measures whether someone is going to be more inclined to engage in casual sex. And it's a personality feature that each of us have, that we sit on a spectrum. So I have friends, I'm sure you have friends the ways, or maybe I've even been this person at a point in my life where like casual sex, short-term relationships, no commitment. That was something that was super interesting to me and something that I was like, yeah, I'm a big fan of this. But then there are other people who are like, oh, this actually isn't where I stand.

This is not what I'm looking for when I go into these interactions, which is like kind of shit when you're like, oh, maybe I actually didn't want to do this. But the other person, you know, there was this like expectation or like kind of like this societal pressure. Like I think we've almost turned away from slut shaming, of course, that still exists into this very like sex is empowering. So you should be having heaps of sex. And if you're not having heaps of sex, like there's something about you that's undesirable. Like have you found that as well,

like within your friendship group or within your own life? Yeah, I think it's so important to touch on this point of sexual liberation. And, you know, with the rise of feminism, like you said, with the rise of birth control, there is this space where we are stepping into a more empowered space where it's like, oh, why should men be able to sleep with, 10 people and no one bat an eyelid, 100 people and no on bat an eyelid, you know, more. Whatever that number is, there's very little judging around the man and they might just be like,

oh, they're a fuck boy. Sorry, I don't know if you swear on your podcast. No, go for it. Okay, perfect. You know, oh, they're a fuck boy. But then there's also this kind of mentality that if they're the fuck boy, they're kind of attractive and everyone's into them and everyone wants them. Whereas like, that does not happen for us. And I think that it's just really interesting that You know, if you look back to like Bridgeton, say, if you've watched that TV program, the whole thing in that is that you're waiting to be chosen by the man. You know, the room full of women, you're waiting to be chosen. We're moving away from that today where you're right, empowerment, female empowerment.

We can do whatever we want. And so we should be able to. But the truth is, is that underneath that empowerment, I still don't think we're having the truthful discussions around what do I actually want here. And like you said, that point around intimacy is you might just want to cuddle or you might want to hook up but not have penetrative sex or because, you know, for me, I'm, well, I'm in a relationship now, but before I would have been way more happy having a hookup that didn't involve penetrative sex because for me, I have more trauma around that and I want to know someone and feel safe with them. But I'd happily do other stuff. And then I have friends who would sleep with a different guy every weekend and it would. it wouldn't phase them at all.

There would be no negative emotions coming up. So you're right. We're all so different and so unique. And I think it's just about being really compassionate with our own story. Because often we do have our own sex story. And often it does come from a real place of pain and not being respected or doing things we didn't want to do or regret or shame or guilt. And when we are just a little bit clearer and more compassionate with our own truth,

I think we can then say it exactly like you said, what do I want from this? Do I actually just want a cuddle or a date and some flirting? And I think it can help us just manage those boundaries a little bit better. And I'm reminded of this quote I heard of the other day was like just because it's empowering doesn't mean it leaves you feeling empowered. Love that. Which I just think, yeah, it's so pertinent to this conversation, right?

It's like just because society has told you that, you know, I think we're specifically talking to women here, or people who identify as women, just because society has told you that to be empowered, you should be having casual sex, you should be reclaiming the sexual narrative that has very much and historically, very much been in the favor of men,

doesn't mean that you personally have to be on board with that. Like there are other ways that you can feel liberated. And I feel like, sometimes sexual freedom gets confused with like sexual promiscuity, which is like super fair. Like I would say that I'm a fairly promiscuous person at this point in my life because that's my preference. I think Louise has given me a clap. I'm clapping just like mainly, mainly for your honesty. Because I feel like in my 20s like I'm older than you. I would never be able to sit on a podcast and say, oh yeah, I'm in my promiscuous phase because I held so much shame.

around being promiscuous because I did so many things and I felt so regretful. But now like I'm older, I'm exactly the same. That's why we're here talking about this. But just to hear you, hear you say that, I'm like, oh my goodness, this is a healthy queen. Like I love to hear it. I love to hear it. You made my day. But I think that it comes from like a point of like, okay, I'm in like whatever, my promiscuous error.

But the thing is that I'm not. And even then I would say that hook up culture still doesn't always benefit me. because you both have to be in the same mindset if you if this is a casual interaction for it to work. Like I've had so many interactions in which I know in my deepest of hearts that I am a, I'm a relationship girly. Like I in my long in my in my in my in the long run would love commitment, would love a partner, would love someone who I can trust and talk to. But at this point in my life, that's not something that's like is going to fit in with how busy I am with my schedule with my life priorities.

but you know girls got to eat girls got to eat and we do have biological needs you know and it's really like how I think I think just to your point it's like what does empowerment mean to you what does empowerment mean to you like for me I've realized that empowerment means protecting my energy protecting my body until I feel safe enough with someone and understand the truth of their intentions

that I can then share my body with them share my pleasure with them share the experience with them And that for me is empowering. Whereas before when I was younger, I didn't have any of those things. So I always went into the promiscuous box rather than the sexually empowered. Like I wasn't sexually empowered or sexually liberated when I was younger. I was just being driven to promiscuity. I'm not even sure if that's a word by so, so many parts of me that were looking for love

and looking for validation and looking for attention. And that's not, that's for me that wasn't empowering. And it really, really hurt me. But I think when you do the work and you start to do this work and the healing, you realize like, oh, yeah, I can do this in a more empowered way because empowered to me means X, Y, Z. And it's different for everyone. Oh, that's such a beautiful way of putting it. I feel like you're like a mentor to me.

You're like, I'm like your youngest self. But I feel like I'm coming out of it. Like, actually, I know this. Like, I went on this date with someone recently and it was like super casual. It was without giving detail. We love details. Yeah. Maybe later.

Maybe we do an R-rated cut of this. But it was a hookup, right? Whatever you want to apply to that. And I was like, yeah, I've done this before. Like, this is fun. And then, like, three days, like, for the next three days, I just was like, I actually just don't feel great about myself. I actually feel like I really liked this person.

And I would have actually really enjoyed getting to know. them. And I made that clear to them and they were like, oh, I didn't think that's what we were doing. And I was like, all right. I think that I've, yeah, I was like, that feels, yeah, yeah, literally, I was like, I was like, I just feels so awful. But I also was like, okay, like, I think I'm done here. Like, this, this actually isn't perhaps what I want. I think that although I was making those choices and although it like fit with, with the lifestyle I have right now and I'm quite young and I want to explore. And, you know, there's still a lot of stuff that I'm trying to deal with from previous

relationships that I think wouldn't be helpful to bring into a new relationship until that's resolved. It's important to kind of maybe know my boundaries around commitment. I still think it's one of those things where I was like, I, in some way, have come to think that having sex with someone casually is going or doing something with someone casually is going to make me feel better because in the past it's made me feel better and it no longer is doing that

and like the more research I did into it and also just anecdotal experience the more I was like okay like the part of my brain that enjoys this now is growing up it's maturing I actually want to talk about this study because I think it's really interesting here which was a study done in the US

and it interviewed both men and women the morning after hook up. Super fascinating. 82% of men were like, yep, pretty happy that I did that, glad that they'd done it. Only 57% of women. So like, I do also think it's a gendered thing in some ways as well, like feelings like regret are more likely to impact women, emotional difficulties, a sense of a loss of respect, even like difficulties with a steady partner in the future, our embarrassment, like none of that to scare anyone, but I think it's something that as you mature as well, and you realize that it's not all glamorous and romantic, you start to be like,

oh, there are actually our emotional consequences to this. And it's okay to be someone who says, this isn't for me. Like, does that kind of relate to you? Like, did you have some of that experience as well when you moved out of your promiscuity era? Oh, my goodness, yes. And I think that is, it is such a gendered topic. I'm so glad you brought up that study because it is such a fascinating study. And I think that is the research that also said that more women than men hoped that a relationship would develop following a hookup. And that exactly. Yeah, and that they also identified more emotional involvement than the men. And I think it's so important that there's research being put behind these things because we always say, you know, we make these sweeping

generalizations like, oh, men love casual sex. Men find casual sex way easier than women. It's awesome to actually start to put some statistics behind that. And this ties me to my, point of silence, which is that what I find in general hookups, casual hookups, casual sex, is there's an element of silence, right? Like you said, you didn't communicate to this guy that you went on a date with before, maybe because you weren't aware at that point, or maybe because you didn't feel comfortable, you didn't want to come on too strong. You didn't communicate, like, hey, I'm super up for being intimate with you, but I kind of think that I'd also like this to maybe become something else, you know, how do you feel about that?

And it's this element of silence. And if you have the hookup and you have silence, then what I find happens is we add our own meaning. We add our own intention and we add our own like story around their intention. And when I was younger, maybe when I was your age, they'd give me attention and I'd think it was intention. I'd be like, oh my gosh, this is going to be something. Like, oh my goodness, this, we might be boyfriend and a girlfriend. Like this might be something.

And, you know, with attachment wounds and attachment hunger as well, you also can end up going into the, oh my God, this is it. This is my person. Like, they're going to save everything. Yes. Yeah. Like, exactly. Oh, no. Honestly, I'm like, I've been there too.

So I'm like, no shame, no judgment. But it's that silence. When you have silence, we add our own meaning. And I just think it's so great that we're starting to have some of that research that you just pulled out there to start to just share the truth that yes, sometimes women maybe do experience. more emotional. Like emotional expectations almost. Yeah. Emotional expectations, emotional involvement, and maybe even emotional damage.

That sounds a bit strong. But I think the research shows that like women get, they regret it more. They maybe feel more upset about it afterwards or guilty. And so I think it's important to talk about that. Yeah. And I think it also comes to this point of like sexes is, yeah, physical interaction. It's great. It feels amazing, but it's also very emotionally nuanced. And something, I think that's something that we should be aware of because I will just

make a claim for like the positive impacts, which this study also found, which I think are worth noting, boosts in self-esteem, sexual pleasure, relaxation, it's a really great physical outlet. And one really interesting one was self-awareness, which I thought was really, really interesting when I was thinking about my own history where I was like from all of these casual hookups or even casual relationships I have taken an important lesson and I think it does teach you what you want like and I think that that's where I'm at at this point at this emotional turning point where I'm like this actually isn't what I want I feel like in some ways I have been slightly indoctrinated into thinking that it is and for many of my friends it is what they want I'm like

power to you I cannot wait to live vicariously through all of the of your stories. But it's like sexes, I think sometimes can be, a lot of the emotions can be removed when we put it in a casual context, but that doesn't mean that the emotions aren't still lingering somewhere, right? Like it might not be committed, it might not be based in like very pure, ephemeral love. But with any intimate interaction, it's like, it's not like your brain is separate from your body here.

Like, there will be neurotransmitters that are. are fired. There will be interactions that are going on in your brain that you can't always control. One of those is that attachment that you talk about and how I think as a study shows, specifically women have this expectation of like, where is this going to go? I want more. Which I think is interesting when we talk about like the brain because we know sex feels great. We've said that a million times and casual sex is a great outlet, right? But sex also comes with a lot of physical and mental experiences, including the release of neurochemicals like oxytocin and dopamine.

And those hormones, those neurochemicals, they are important for things like bonding. And they're important for things like attachment, feeling safe, feeling secure. Those hormones do not understand the difference between casual sex and committed sex. Like if the pleasure is the same, it's going to respond the same, which is why sometimes we might have that feeling of hurt or of unrequited longing after we have encountered someone and done whatever with them.

And it's not even necessarily sex that releases that. Like things like oxytocin, it can literally be released from, you know, holding hands with someone or getting a really nice hug like we talked about before. but you think it's why people naturally get attached, especially if you haven't, you know, especially if something that you've done with a partner is like bringing you a lot of joy, suddenly you can find that even against your will, you have this like connection with this person.

I don't know if you've had this way you've been like, I knew this was casual, I knew this was casual, but still you're like waiting for the text, or still you're like, oh, what more is going to come from this? I am so glad you brought up waiting for the text because I think it's really important that we talk about cortisol in this like formula as well because you're right you know our oxytocin is soaring because our body is bonding physically and it thinks we're going to bond more and there's

these expectations of bonding so that's rising but then also what can be rising in the next few days afterwards is the cortisol which is the stress hormone right because if you are stressed and you leave and you're waiting for them to text you waiting for them to call you maybe you did something that you didn't want to do. Maybe you took things a little bit faster and you wish you'd taken things a bit slower. The stress hormone cortisol is going to be flooding through your body too. And I think that also if you have an anxious attachment style, and I'm not sure how much you talk about attachment styles, but I talk about them all the time because it's something that, you know, understanding my attachment style helped me understand myself so much better. But that can help you understand why the next few days

can be really, really stressful, even if you enjoyed the hookup in the moment. Because I think what we're saying is we're not saying like, oh, you know, we hate every second of the hookup. Like, no, we enjoy the hookup sometimes. You know, the hookup can be really fun. It can be really exhilarating. It's sometimes just the space after the hookup, the emptiness, like you said, but also the slightly tight feeling in your chest and you're looking at their phone.

Yeah. Yeah. Your phone, their WhatsApp, you know, they're online. They're not texting me back, like, oh, why did I do that? Like, I shouldn't have done that. And that's when you can also be flooded with cortisol. And it's just not a nice feeling. So I think you're right.

Just having compassion and grace for ourselves in understanding that so many of these feelings are working at a neurotransmitter level that we can just understand this is our biology at play here. And I think it can help us understand these intense feelings just a little bit more. And I love that you brought up cortisol because I think that that is such a valuable part of that kind of equation and that interaction

that's happening in our brain. The other one is the oxytocin crash. So oxytocin is like it's triggered often by intimate relations. Like I said, it could be triggered by like getting a massage from, you know, seeing a really beautiful tree of the ocean. I don't know. Anything that brings you joy. But the thing is that in those instances,

where it is something like a little bit less intense, something that might actually be more common as well, something that doesn't also have some of that taboo associated with it. And, you know, there's a difference between having casual sex with someone and seeing the ocean. It brings up different feelings, obviously. But those, like, those kind of activities, it's not so much of a spike. It's just this like gradual peak and then plateau. And it feels really, really lovely. It's like when you eat a banana, when you're really hungry and you get those like natural levels of like glucose and sugar. But it's like if you eat like a massive bag of candy and you haven't eaten like any sugar for like a couple of weeks and you're just like stuffing your face with it and you're like,

yes, you're going to have this sugar high, right? You're going to feel amazing. You're going to be like, yes, I want to eat candy all the fucking time. Like, yeah, like, how? high on life, literally like buzzing. That's literally what oxytocin does. It's like it's the same kind of neurotransmitter drug receptor that's used in a lot of illicit substances as well. So it's also something to note. But we have this crash.

We have this crash, this come down, especially when the oxytocin isn't prolonged by things like aftercare or things like, and for those of you who don't know what aftercare, it's like having a cuddle after you've hooked up with someone or. doing something that engages in that pleasurable part of your brain, but has more to do with bonding and comfort and security and safety. So if that's not sustained, what we're going to see is that really intense crash. Do you have something to say about that? I feel like that's something that you could probably speak to as well.

Yeah, I'm just so happy you said the word aftercare because it's something that's still not spoken about much, but is so, so important. I think their studies showing that if there is aftercare involved in a sexual encounter, it changes the entire way that you process and experience the encounter. And something as simple as a cuddle, an intimate encounter, a conversation after that hookup can change the whole experience and help you, like, wean off the crash almost. And I think I'm probably not alone in that moment that, you know, it's finished.

maybe they roll over, they pick up their phone, maybe they just jump and get in the shower on their own. And you're just like lying there and you're alone. And for me, like, oh, I can feel the emotion now. Like I've been in that situation so many times. You're just like, oh, like you're not going to start, well, maybe you will start crying there. And if you do, that's absolutely okay

because it's like a release of emotion. But it's definitely like a, oh, you know, they've got up, they've left. Maybe they just go and take a phone call. head to the kitchen, whatever it is that they do, I just think that that aftercare piece is so important. And if you are engaging in a hookup, I would say, don't be ashamed to say, like, I'm so excited to do this. But it's really important for me that, you know, we can have a cuddle afterwards. Like it elevates the whole, like the whole experience for me. And I think it's just about delivering that.

Like we said, everything here is sex positive. Just deliver it in a positive way. Like I always love saying it would help me elevate the experience. Because it's like, that's so cool. It's something that they can do. really easy that can help develop the experience even more for you. They should want to do that for you, right?

If they get access to you, your time, your energy, your emotions, your body, and you say to them like, hey, I'd love to have a cuddle. If they don't want to do that, if they won't give you that, I think it says everything about the hookup and that they probably don't deserve to be hooking up with you again. Oh yeah, it makes it seem so transactional, doesn't it? Right.

You're like, wow, I feel like we just, you know, exchange cash decisions. supermarket like I've had that experience before and I remember just being like wow I've never felt more empty in my life I was like and it was so sad and I remember being like to myself like I'm never going to have that experience ever again that is not for me much more selective now I would say but also just like I think this kind of links to what I really want to talk to you about next which is we're obviously most of us in our 20s or I would say yeah I would say the most of majority of us are having sex and probably having some form of casual sex or casual intimacy,

if that's where you're at in your life right now. And I think something that's not spoken about much is, you know, we talk, people give a lot of relationship advice, right? Like there's so much, so many podcasts, so many articles, so many TikToks, so much information about there, out there around how to have a healthy, long-term, stable relationship. But not so many about, how to have a healthy hookup. So what's some of the advice that you would give? What some of the things that you would, because you obviously have such great language and dialogue around this, I feel like it needs to be, to be shared. Oh, bless you. Thank you. So yeah, the first one that we've already spoken about, I would say, is just knowing your truth. And I think that you need to understand

and connect with yourself before the hookup even starts, because you can't really decide it in the moment, because like we've said, there's so many neurotransmitters flying around that sometimes that will impair our judgment. So the first one is just understanding where you're at in your life right now, what you want and just agreeing some boundaries around that, you know, saying to yourself,

I'm just going to commit that I'm going to stick within these boundaries because I know that this is going to make me feel better in the long run. So yeah, the first one is knowing your truth. The second one, like I've said, is communication. And it feels awkward to have this communication

sometimes before a hookup, particularly if we don't know them very well, which is often where I find that this hookup culture sits. But I think it's just about practicing really small like sound bites of communication. You don't need to sit them down and say this is my backstory. This is my sex story. This is what I've gone through. So this is what I want from you. Like it doesn't need to, doesn't need to be like that. I think it's just about starting to have small dialogues around saying, I'm really excited to hook up with you. You know, I prefer to take things slower whilst I get to know you.

So maybe the first few times we hang out like, you know, we could just get to know. each other. If you want to slow things down with them, say that. If you don't and you want to go right into it, communicate with that with them. You know, right now I'm not looking for a relationship. So for me, this is just going to be a hookup and I'm really excited. How do you feel about that? Because, you know, we're coming at this from our angle as women. But actually, it might be that they want or don't want a relationship. So just having that light touch point, I think is really important. and I guess, you know, after the communication also brings us to the point of consent, which I think consent is the sexiest thing in the world,

and I can't wait, I can't wait until the world catches up with that belief that it should be the sexiest part of the conversation. You know, I want to do this with you. How do you feel about that? Oh, it's kind of, but like Louise, it kind of is so hot. Like when a guy's like, is this nice? And you're like, thank you so much for asking me that. Honestly, I, I, I, when I was.

like 20, I swear, this guy asked me when we were hooking up, he said, does that feel good for you? Tell me what I can do differently. Or like, he said, does this feel good for you? Tell me what you want me to do so it can feel even better. And I was just like, this was the first guy that had ever like communicated to me in the bedroom because, wow. Like hookups are silent, right? We don't, yeah. And I like, I like fell in love with him literally. I was like, oh my God, like you are, you are incredible. So I love it as well. I just think like don't be ashamed of it. Just be like use your voice in the bedroom.

Like even if you have to start really small. Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think also it's such a great kind of like almost it's such a great vetting system to understand where you want to go with this person. Something that we've obviously said throughout this episode is, you know, hookups don't always mean having full blown intercourse and. having sex like it doesn't always mean that so if you're at like that first stage where you've like you know made out with someone at a party like having that kind of like conversation um to be like

oh where is this going like what does this feel like is like so so valuable gets you on the same page um and also just like make sure that you're able to be like okay this person just got out of a long-term relationship. Am I going to be a rebound? If that's, maybe that's like, maybe that's your specialty. All power to you. Like, maybe you have that healing energy. Love it. But maybe you're like, I don't need to deal with that emotional baggage. Let's move on. And it's also like a really good way of like determining like if they are respectful of that conversation, maybe you do want to move forward. If they're not, that's a really great place to end things when you're having a discussion around boundaries, barriers, history, if you are having that, or consent.

Like, it's such a great place to start, right? You can learn so much about someone. Yeah, and I think also just on that point, like, I love this quote, which is basically something along the lines of, are you using sex as the honey or the glue? Like, are you using it as something, yeah, to try and get them to like you, to love you, to be interested in you. Like when I was younger, I would lead with the sex and then hope they'd fall for me. Hope they'd decide they want a relationship.

Hope they'd decide like, oh, hey, this chick's cool. Like, I'm up for hanging out with her again. But what I've learned as I've got older is that it should actually be the other way around. Like you build the foundations of something and then you use the sex as like the add-on. Like, okay, yeah, we're now going to have this incredible, pleasurable, powerful hookup. And I just think it's so interesting to ask like, oh, yeah, like, am I? I leading with this hookup hoping for something more or am I leading with this hookup because actually all I want is a hookup and again it ties back to the first point that I said what's your

truth then you can be empowered then you can communicate it and then you can go with it and have an amazing experience of whatever that looks like. Oh wise words from a wise woman. One more question because I just feel like we have to just quickly talk about this. Yes. Because we've talked about how sometimes you know there are these studies that have been done that show kind of an emotional response that isn't always positive. Sometimes it's regret, sometimes it's embarrassment. Any advice for what to do then? You can't take back what's been done.

Sometimes it can leave you in a place where you just feel really worthless and useless and gross about yourself. So where do you go from there? What do you think your perspective on that is? Yes. So what I love here is understanding the difference in the concepts of like regret versus is shame and I'm sure you've touched on this a lot in your podcast but for me they're very different things the the regret is about a specific act or experience whereas the shame is about us so something

like about the core of our being so the regret can be something like oh I regret having intercourse with them I regret hooking up with them I regret having sex with them like I wish I hadn't done it that soon but the shame is deeper it's I shouldn't have done that because I gave my body away. I'm not worthy. Like I'm dirty. I'm empty. Like they go a lot deeper. So they're both really difficult emotions to deal with, but I would definitely just start with understanding that differentiation. And that can then help you understand what comes next. Because if it's just regret, you can be like, okay, why am I regretful? Okay, because I was drunk, because I was high, because I had, you know, I did something that I didn't want to do that I wouldn't have done if I was

a state of mind, in a different state of mind. You can be like, okay, cool. Next time, when I see this person, I'm not going to drink, or I'm going to drink less at the next party, or I'm not going to smoke, or whatever that is. You can just make some, like, really rational decisions to change and reduce the likelihood of the regret. Now, with the shame, it goes a lot deeper, and I think that's something where therapy can just be so helpful to work through, because sometimes your friends can help you process the regret but it's really like a therapist that can help you process the shame you know where did that come from yeah where did that develop so i think my first point here is like understanding that difference in regret and shame can really help you like navigate what comes next

and navigate those really difficult feelings and is it a question of self-worth as well i think that that is a massive component and a massive emotional component of of casual sex is self-worth, something that we could do probably a whole new, a whole other deep dive on it. But it's not something that's going to be, I think, healed overnight. I think also we have a habit of sometimes suppressing unpleasant emotions, which isn't really going to help you on the long run, because if you have left something casual, if you've left to hook up feeling really bad about yourself, doing that again, it might be, might make the situation worse or it might put you back into this place of spiraling in this place of shame.

So addressing it head on and actually taking time to process the shame like you spoke about, the deeper emotional response and reaction that you're having will definitely benefit you in the long run rather than running away from the feeling, hiding from the feeling, suppressing the feeling. Yeah, I think it's so important your point around suppressing and then the ongoing. going cycles because if you don't process the uncomfortable emotions you just push them down and then what happens oh it gets to the weekend you go out again you get drunk again and the same cycles they just repeat and that was me you know for so many years of partying in my early 20s it would almost be like every weekend I'd do something well not every weekend that's like that's like a lot of hookups it wasn't

like that many hookups but it would be you know cycles of doing things I regret and then and then having to deal with the repercussions. So you're so right about just feeling. And I think that not suppressing piece is like a longer term piece, like learning how to feel, learning how to process. Like it's a journey. I'm way older than you. I'm still learning how to process and feel. Like this morning before we came on here, I like watched a video of these elephants like stuck in the mud. And the, and the mom was like covering the baby with her trunk. And I was like, I want to cry. And I was like, don't be so stupid. And I was like, and I was like, like no cry like if if you're really sad that they thought they were going to die there together and

the mom was like had oh and do you know what I stood in my bedroom as a 30 something you're a woman I just bawled my eyes out over these elephants and I was like this is this is doing the work these tiny moments where we want to cry over an elephant on an Instagram story it's doing the work it's the little things right and it is something that I think applies to everything when you feel negative emotions when you feel complicated emotions, nuanced emotions, ambiguous emotions, the worst thing you can do is actually not sit with them and really stay in touch with how you feel, how you're responding to a situation so that, you know, when we talk about casual sex again, like if it's something that maybe isn't for you, you don't want to figure that out like

three years down the track and then have to deal with like all of these what ifs and all of I guess in this instance, regret and shame, it'd be so much more beneficial to you if you really sat with your emotions and were able to process them in the moment. Obviously, it's something that you learn over time. We don't have like a checklist for you, unfortunately. That would be worth a lot of money. But we should put that together. Yeah, we really should.

Next collab. Yeah, exactly. I think another thing that's really, really important to talk about here is like we've spoken about the longer term piece, like the shame, regret, suppress. I think what's also so important is like understanding what you can do in the 24, 48, 72 hours after the hookup to help that oxytocin crash, to help that cortisol spike. And I think that what I've found is often after hookups that I regretted, I'd feel very cold, like emotionally cold is how my therapist describes it and fearful and regretful. and I just would not feel good. I would kind of just want to isolate myself

or I'd go the other way and just go out partying again. So I think it's about really acknowledging like, okay, I don't feel good. What can I do in the next 24, 48, 78, 72 hours to help balance those neurotransmitters. So for me, it's, you know, they say that, oh, you shouldn't numb on the sofa with a Netflix and a pizza. But for me, that is the best thing that I can do that next day

is to be, like in the evening, to be warm, to have a bath, to put on some really comfy pajamas, to watch a really easy movie that's happy, to have a pizza, like, have something that's, like, warm and feels a bit naughty. And then to have an early night, like, I always say everything is more manageable the next day, like, after a good night's sleep.

So if you are feeling horrible emotions that day, and if you want to text them, okay, write it in your notes, write down. Yes. Yeah, what you want to say, and I say, this isn't suppression. I just say, leave it 24 hours. And I guarantee you that when you come back to that note, the next day, after a good night's sleep,

after the alcohol or the drugs or whatever it is that, you know, has been involved in this encounter, has worn off. After the crash is starting to come down, you'll look at that message. And maybe, like, if you're like me, you'll be like, thank goodness. I didn't say.

that message. Like, oh my goodness. And then you can navigate it in the 48 to 72 hour mark when you're feeling a little bit more balanced, a little bit more calm, a bit more cared for. You can text them and you can say, appreciate your time the other night. It brought up some uncomfortable emotions for me.

So I don't think this is a situation that I want to do with you again. But I do think you're great. You're super handsome. Like I had so much fun. You know, maybe that's it. You end it there. Or whatever your true,

whatever your truth is, I think you can just send a gentle message. So you're not silence. So you're not suppressed. And I think that that kind of 72-hour window after a hookup, you can be like, okay, what can I do in here that can make me feel better in the time that if you take hookups badly is going to make you feel the worst. And I'm going to say I do this tip. I do this trick where when I'm feeling super emotional about something and my first instinct is to like, say something immediately in the moment to have my, have my fury moment, to have my emotional outlet.

I write it down or I write it in my notes up and I just leave it. I wait until I have a clear head. And that's if you're someone who really does struggle with kind of the emotional complications and nuances of casual sex, of hookup culture, it might be really, really important. And, you know, shout out to the people who are still listening to this, who are like, I love casual sex. I hook up all the time. I am so proud of you like go yes go for it go for it you're you're very lucky that like I kind of

wish I could be that person I think I was trying to make myself that person for a long time but I'm just not so live your truth whatever that may be like you said Louise oh I love that and I feel the same you know if that's you I'm so envious like I wish like I could have had more just like fun sexual encounters because by the age of like 20s I was like, I can't do this anymore. Like I really, from the age of 25 onwards, I really slept with like four people because it was like I only slept with boyfriends thereafter.

And sometimes I was like, oh, I, there were five years in my 20s where like I could have had way more promiscuous fun. So if that's you, enjoy it for me and Gemma. Yes, please. We're not doing it as much as you. And I love it. We do need more empowerment in the world. And if you're in that empowered category,

it feels great for you, you love it, then kudos to you and I love that for you. Yeah, I honestly do. And it's like that saying, right, like what is empowerment might not always feel empowering, but if it is empowering to you, like, yeah, kudos, kudos, kudos. Yeah, kudos. I've literally never said the word kudos before, but kudos. I know. It's a beautiful word, isn't it? Well, kudos. Well, I want to say kudos to Louise, but coming on. Look at that. What a smooth transition that was. I really hope that if you're still listening, you have very mentally enjoyed this episode. Louise, thank you so much for your wisdom and your kind words. Oh, my pleasure, and I'm just grateful that you've allowed me to bring a bit of my real life into your incredible

science-backed episodes. I think you give everyone exactly what they need to learn, and I just love this little bit of human, human touch and lived experience. So I really love doing this with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, it was honestly amazing. And probably one of my favorite episodes. I will also just give you a plug. If you're not listening to Louise's podcast, the Open House podcast, it is incredible. It is amazing. There are so many discussions, much like this one, that are available there and that you should absolutely go and listen to.

If you want to expand your mind, you want to hear more information. I felt this was just the collab that needed to happen. and it was the episode that needed to happen. So thank you so much once again. And if you did enjoy this episode, please feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. It really does help the show to grow and reach new people.

Feel free to share this episode with a friend who might need to hear it. You never know. And if you want to be more involved with the community, you want to know what's coming up, what guests we have on the show, merch, things like that, please follow us at That Psychology Podcast and have a lovely, lovely week.

We will be back soon with another episode. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing.

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