The Questlove Show - Arthur Baker Part 2

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

We said we’d come back for Part 2—and we did. Arthur Baker, the architect behind “Planet Rock,” “Confusion,” and so much of the ’80s dance-floor sound, returns to The Questlove Show to finish what we started nearly a year ago. Arthur takes us from carrying crates of vinyl onto airplanes to the Synclavier sessions for Hall & Oates’ Big Bam Boom, the clubs and DJs who shaped his sound, and the Brooklyn studio sessions that led to what he jokingly calls “New Arthur” records with New Order. He also opens up about Streetwise Records, the making of Beat Street, the story behind “Sun City” and Artists United Against Apartheid, his connections to Miles Davis, Diana Ross, and Little Steven, and why he wrote his memoir, Looking For The Perfect Beat, for his daughter. Arthur Baker is back.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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in the future for Part 2 and you, the listener, always like, they're never coming back. Well, guess what? It's happened, ladies and gentlemen. This is part 2 of our interview with Pioneer, Arthur Baker. say that I believe when we last left, well, there's so much we left off. We didn't make it past 83. Right. We didn't even start with Candy Girl.

26 now. But wait, I want you to finish your thing because we were kind of in the middle. You were talking about you're still DJing in Miami. I'm DJing last night carrying records on the plane, Ameri. You would not. Do that to yourself, man. If you want a DJ in somewhat cool places, they're all vinyl now. See?

They are. Here's the thing. I mean, the world knows my affinity for collecting wax and whatever. Yeah. Sure, it's on record that I have a couple hundred thousand records. However, now I feel like a fraud because I don't think I've ever subscribed to the theory that, yes, I do believe that at home, the frequency of music from vinyl is just way better. However, for nightclub life, and I'm certain that, let's give an example, Def Jam definitely wasn't helping matters much by pressing Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet

on single vinyl. You know, the grooves were like this small. So, you know, even back- But back then, no one did double albums for a single album, which is what they should have been. Exactly. So my thing was that I, a lot of times, because I wanted to spend album cuts, I, I, I just hated the whole readjusting my EQ to keep the humming out and all that stuff. And so I guess once I started spinning digitally with Serrato at least, all my prayers were answered sonically.

But now that there's this movement of cats returning to 45s and whatnot, it started with the 45 movement and I get where I believe the genesis of it came from, which was basically. to separate the music lovers from the button pushers. Right. But there's no way you're going to tell me is a better sonic experience. But also owning those records that other people don't have. So your records now are your weapon now. And, you know, anyone could have it digitally. But now cats are pressing up 45s as if, you know,

and I blame that on the Puss-Bismarkey, Mardi Gras. Right. Like, I hear you. That whole thing. but for you, like you still find pleasure in carrying records? No, of course not. Come on. When I'm doing to Miami, it's fine.

I drive up in my car. I wheel them into the club. But going on a plane with like, you know, with two boxes of records like I did. Right. And you're not wanting to check them in, obviously, because you know they're going to get stolen. I mean, I don't know how many people lost their records.

Paul Okunfal lost, like, all his records going to Brazil, and he had to make a call out. to anyone out there to get his set. And this is like 25 of music. I can't even imagine. I do play different stuff, though. I totally play different stuff because I play, you know, more for the heads, for sure. You also have to commit.

And that's the thing that worries me now. Like, right now I'm in a place where this computer has eight terabytes of music. Yeah. Which, you know, it's almost like where I am now where I don't know what audience I'm going to meet. Right. Now, normally I know at least for, and I can, I will say our era. I mean, I've been DJing since 83, 84, like as a young end. But I know the general rule is House rules.

Like, the DJ is the tastemaker. Yeah, there's a selector. They're going to pick their. But I think now at least past 97, 98, suddenly the customer is always right thing. Now, I will say that 95% of the time I will ignore. request or whatever. However, if it ain't going right,

or if it's a little slow, you might... Right, but at least with this, I have the insurance of... I can either play the fat boys or Taylor Swift. Yeah, yeah. But when you pick those records... No, you're screwed.

You're screwed. And you have to, like, select for, like, anything that could come up. So, you know, I got my LCD sound system. If it looks like there's some old punk, you know,

old electro punks, and I got a lot of jazz, and I get my, you know, I get my own records that I produce, so I get all the electro stuff. So I can always, if all else fails, I go to, like, playing a rock, play your own risk, you know, confusion, new order, I'll play an electro set. Are they aware that Arthur Baker is spinning?

Or you're just like the cool guy in the club? No, the old guy in the club. Occasionally they do. Like, Dante's in Miami. You know, people come out to see me DJ. That's it. But, you know, like in New Blue now, they're trying to get that crowd, but it didn't happen yet.

But occasionally, like if I'm playing at a club, they don't know who the hell I am. At a vinyl bar, they do. That's the difference. When you're playing vinyl, people, it's more of a thing to come to hear me. When I'm playing at a place in Ibiza or wherever, which I don't do often, but when I do, they don't. There's a vinyl bar in New York City that I'm in love with in which it's called All Blues. and they actually treat their records like concert here. Like, they'll announce, like, 8 p.m. tonight, limited seating only,

like Miles Davis live at the plug nickel. Right. And literally, we walk in there. Yeah. It's like a movie theater. We'll sit. Wow. And you must be silent.

You can't silent talk or anything. No phones. Yeah. They'll have food and drink there for you. Wow. And a great sound system. Yeah. And it's done on top-in, you know,

You sit there and you listen to a jazz concert. Yeah. They have like live record night on one particular night where you'll see. They have all those sort of bootlegs of miles all over the world with his lost quintet. You know, each night is a different theme. Like one night it's all about romance. It's all slow music. So it's a great date night spot.

But, you know, for the most part, they will play, I think the first time I went there, Commodore's Live from 77 was the thing. Like, they'll do all live vinyl. They pick the music, you go to, yeah. They pick the music, and you sit and listen. Wow. It's not like being at a bar and dancing or whatever. So there's no pressure to make people dance.

But, oh, God, if you're doing this, then I don't want to return to vinyl, man. You don't have to do it, man. I don't want to return to vinyl. You know, I would stay with that. I would stay no vinyl. Bambata used to have a guy with, he had three people carrying, like, eight crates. He'd travel with eight crates. Oh, you're supposed to be.

have your boys with you. Yeah. I'm definitely not doing that. Okay, so one day I plan on interviewing Trevor Horn and picking his brain, but for right now, I mean, yes, I know that he kind of holds the technical crown as being the first person to sample a break and use it because he had access to, what, the Sinclavia? Yeah. Okay, so from what I've heard about this machine is that, you know, So when it came out, this very unattainable, only select few privilege that had the money to afford it, i.e. Herbie, Stevie, Prince, Trevor himself had access to it. Would studios happen to have, like, when you first saw Sinclaviour got used to it or working with it? Like, when did you first come across it? Okay.

The Fairlight, we had one at Intergalactic before Planet Rock. We used that for the orchestra hit. Okay. So the Fairlight was invented back in 81. Yeah. Okay. And that was a preset. They had samples.

You couldn't really sample, but it was, okay. Sinclavia, I worked with the Sinclair, Clavier with hollow notes on Big Bamboom. Out of touch. Out of touch. But the whole album, we was sampling. We went in with Jimmy Braylauer, who was a drummer, but it was also getting into the sampling. We had a sample guy from Sinclaveria come in. We were at Electric Lady Studios.

We brought a Sinclavia in. And then Hall and Oates actually bought one. How much were they? I don't know, $100,000. They were... Oh, it was over $10,000? Oh, it was way over $10,000. I'm not...

You'd have to check, but it was definitely way over $10,000. How big was it? It was like this, you know. But my point is, we bought one. They left it in my studio, and we just kept plants on it. It was like Darrell said it was like the most expensive plant holder. We didn't end up using it.

We buy a exercise bike for you, when we got it, it was like the novelty of sampling vocals and making like drum beats. We were using it as a human beatbox holder. You know, we was sampling, we'd go, ah, boom, ah, and we'd do that. And there's a few songs. So is that the reason why, I mean, I've had Bing, Bain, boom, but I know the out of touch video had those sort of Latin rascally,

yeah, that's all you. That's all you work. Yeah, what I was hired to be the arranger. I didn't get a production credit because I already had a Claremont in Hall and Oats and T-Bone Walk. They were all producers. Right. Motola was managing me at the time and basically said, listen, you know, pay you, pay me like

50 grand to be the arranger and do all my, I did the sort of the. remix stuff for the album. So a lot of the tracks. And adult education? No, that wasn't on there. Method of Modern Love. Okay. Cool. So that was my beat and that was my edits and stuff. But luckily Darrell and I one night went in and we wrote a track and the intro of out of touch, that sort of metal thing with Tcha Baila, I got half the writing and publishing on it. So basically I had a song on the album. So I actually, instead of having a point on the album, I had publishing, which at least I got paid. you know. But technically, we messed around with it, and Mickey Curry, who was the drummer in the band, he was not happy.

Yeah, I was going to say, how do you feel? No, he was the least happy of anyone. We sampled his drums, Claremonton made it all sound amazing, obviously. Right. But that was a moment because that was probably the first record that used that technology. And we did use it, but it was definitely a marriage of both of the samples and of Mickey's live play. playing if you listen, you know. Okay, so I knew of Bob and Malcolm.

The Stevie Wonder guys. Yeah, doing stuff with Stevie Wonder and Isley brothers. They explained to me that synthesizers, like the early age of computers in which a computer was a room and now it's inside this one box. So was the Sinclair supposed to be like, now you can make your Stevie Wonder dreams come true in this one? I don't know if it was sold that way. I just think it was sold as this thing where you could actually now sample and program. And you could... How long did it take you to learn, like, go through the writer's manual and figure out what it was?

I'm the wrong guy. I was not a tech. I'm the anti-tech guy. So, like, we had the guy, and I forget his name from Sinclavia. Okay, so somebody would come in. And he came in, and he did it all for. I mean, we told them what we want. I mean, with the 808, I programmed the 808. But this was way above my...

my pay grade. There was no way I was going to sit and do it. I mean, we would, let's sample that. Let's simple that. You know, it was more of a gimmick, I thought. But I mean, Trevor Horn made amazing records using it. I didn't do that. Now, at any point when you are kind of first out the gate to this new technology, at any point did it ever occur to you like, oh, I can make new records out of old records, i.e., what would it happen if I sampled an entire four bar this thing and looped or whatever? Or was it just from the... I'm trying to think. I mean, we were already sampling with the emulator, you know, pre... But you were sampling sounds. But I mean, in terms of like a loop. The loop thing did not

come into my mind until maybe 85, I think, when it became more easier. accessible to loop stuff, you know. Back then, with the Sinclavia, no, I didn't, I'll be honest, I didn't think of it. Even when I did put the needle to the record, that track, we weren't even looping then. We had Gail Sky King, the late Gail Sky King.

She rode the record in, you know, we did the same type of thing, but she rode the record and we'd stop when it would go out of time and we'd keep riding the record in. Really? And just punch in. And punch in, yeah. What song? Put the needle to the record, Criminal Element Orchestra, put the needle on the drumbeats,

like this. Really? Yeah, and we did it with that. And Keith LaBlanc was playing live drums. So she had to a click, but she had to ride the baseline from that Motown classic disco break record.

And, you know. Really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that was, and then after that, we got looping in 86, I think.

And I made a criminal almanoics record. I was looping like Prince beats. And, you know, that started. So that was then. Okay. There's an EP of it. There's six verse.

of the song on it, but from soup to nuts, can you tell me the story or the chaos of how you managed to organize the James Brown Bambata sessions for... I didn't do that. No way. Nope. That's got to be you. Nope. It was meant to be me, but it wasn't me. But as your drum patches...

Well, they did it all, man. No, that was Tommy Boy. I think Tom and his wife at the time did it. Really? Yeah, I did not do it. I would have put mine tired. Well, I'm glad you didn't. How did you feel about it when you heard it? Well, what I felt even worse about was I had signed James Brown before Tommy Boy.

I signed him the streetwise. We have a contract. I have the contract and we promised him some money and then my partners messed up with the payment time. and I have the contract and would say, well, blah, blah, blah, blah, you didn't send the check, boom.

So I have the proof, but yeah. What would you have imagined that you would have done with James Brown on streetwise records? Probably very similar to what the thing he did with Bambah

really. You know, I mean, it's just Oh my God. Yeah, yeah. It's okay. This is one of those Mandela Effect moments where I swear to God,

like that was like One of your... Influence by our records, for sure. But I didn't... Listen, I didn't care. You know, I said to Tom, we went up to hear New Edition. I brought Candy Girl up to the Bronx River.

Bambada plays that everyone goes wild. It was the night that Force MDs, but they were called the Force MCs. And me and Tom both hear them, and I go, they're really good. And, you know, I said, but Tom, you can have them because I have a new edition.

So I probably should have signed them too and then when new edition left the... So as you were taking the Candy Girl wax to test it in the Bronx? Yeah. Jazzy Jay played it actually. That's where you saw. Force MDs.

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And the argument is, do you want to win? If you don't win, you have no power. It's real. Those are the very people who I always say vote against the their own economic interest and they complained about the very thing to receive. It's raw. I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men. Roland Martin unfiltered.

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When you complete a record and you give it to, who are your three go-to guys? Mark Kamens. Okay. Where did he DJ? Dancateria. Okay. He was the guy who discovered Madonna. He produced everybody.

Okay. Jelly Bean. Okay. Where do he mostly spin? Just the Fun House. Okay. So I had Dance Terriot Fun House and Paradise Garage, Lively LaVan. Okay.

So those were the three. And I would be able to get the... And they would blindly trust you. Yeah. Well, they wouldn't like not listen to it. They wouldn't just drop a needle on it. They were like, yeah, and then they'd play it. But not only that, jelly beam would play the real to real,

which was like sort of a commitment. He had a reel-to-reel. So you could take a, what, half-inch? Yeah, I would bring a, no, it was a quarter-inch tape. In the confusion video where I bring him the tape, that's real. That's what we used to do. I bring him the tape a new order confusion, hand it to him. You could really play a reel in the club.

And the quality was... Yeah, the quality was fine. They were right from the studio. Would they just let the song fade out? No, they were like, they knew what they were doing. You could spin a reel? Yeah. Jelly Bean did.

Wow. I don't know Larry did. I mean, Mark would play cassettes. He didn't have a reel at Dancateria, but he would play a cassette. Hiss and everything. Out of touch, I brought his... First play out of touch on a cassette, he played it. Is it like when you finalize a mix before you master it, you want to see how it works?

No, this is when I was in the middle of the mix. I didn't know if it was done. My studio was on 37th. All the clubs were like 12 blocks away. You play rough cuts? We play rough cuts. We'd play rough mixes, and then, you know, we were like, is the arrangement. It was more for arrangement when I'd do the drops, because back then no one did these drops like we were doing.

We'd, like, take the drums out, and people would go, you can't do that. But obviously, that's what made the mixes. We'd drop out the drums and then the bass can. So basically, I'd see how the crowd would react. If it reacted the way I thought it would, I'd keep the arrangement. But sonically, you'd hear, is there enough kick? Is it, you know, and we had the key to the fun house. So we would go down jelly bean, we'd go down there with an empty,

which wouldn't really be great for judging sound. And test it. Yeah, but we could test it. So, yeah, jelly bean wouldn't play everybody's record. We were working on records together. So, you know, he... Number one, what was the best year for New York City Club life? Obviously, 82 or 83.

For me, for my world. Yeah. Studio 54 was not my world. I know that. So I want to know that post period. That was Jive and, you know. I mean, the thing. was you could do those three clubs that I mentioned, which is Dancateria, Funhouse, Paradise Garage.

You could do all three in one night. And to me, those are three of the best clubs ever. And you could go, you could travel amongst those. Because Larry was playing until, you know, daybreak. And Dancateria was like you could go early. They had food. They had a bunch of floors, and there was a reggae floor. You know, I mean, they had food. They had food. They had some food, you know. Like, I hear the one thing, like, oh, they have food there. But that's the thing. I want to know soup to nuts. What the...

All right, number one, could you get in? I mean, the Laura Studio 54 is... No, you can't get in. You had to look right. Right. So for these three clubs, for Paradise Garage, whatever, is it still the whole... Well, Paradise Garage was a members club. How do you become a member?

You became a member. You know, you were a member. You got a new guy that knows a guy. Yeah, I mean, you could be... industry like me, and I just know the person at the door. You would get love, right? Yeah, I could get any. But a Bridget and Tunnel person?

No. They still have to stand in line. Bridging Tunnel didn't go to Paradise Garage. Paradise Garage was gay, black, Puerto Rican. Right. It was that. It was that. And it was really, you know.

Okay, so where the Bridget and Tunnel top 40 people going? More the Fun House. So the Fun House is a little more commercial? Well, yeah. I mean, Jelly Bean, then you saw what records he was mixing. You know, he was Paul McCartney and, you know, he was unbelievable DJ. Jelly Bean doesn't get the love as a DJ. He was, he played everything, you know.

But the three of them, that's the other thing you've got to realize. They were all playing Clash records. Okay. You know what I mean? They were playing Clash and they were playing James Brown and they were playing Freez IOU. They were all playing across the board. So they were all open format DJs? All open format.

Okay. So that was my. vibe of what I wanted to hear. You know, obviously Larry would end more disco and Mark played a little bit more rock and electro and jellybean played across. But each one of those clubs was very different, but you could travel amongst those clubs in one night. That was the thing.

There was so many clubs in New York. Better Days. T. Scott. I mean, there were these amazing clubs everywhere, you know. What was the better club for strictly just dancing? Ooh. Not dance atyria, funnily enough. But for sort of how, well, you wouldn't even call it house dancing. No, okay, B-boy or sort of early B-boy breaking and kick dancing and all that, the young kids.

They were all underage anyway, you know, at Fun House. They were kids who were 15 years. Louis. Was carding a thing back then or was just like? It was a mafia club. I mean, they got a card anyone, you know. Okay. But Louis, Vega, they had a thing.

tells me the story of him sitting in the basement at the Fun House, listening to Rockers Revenge Harder they come the first time he heard it. And he was in the basement. And he was just like, you know, I would just come there. And he's how old are you? 15, 16 years old. So that was all young. It was Puerto Rican and Italian.

Okay. That was the thing. It was a racist club. Black kids could barely get in? Could barely get in. Yeah. I'm being totally like the Fun House was Puerto Rican and Italian. Was it mostly freestyle?

Well, we started freestyle. There was no freestyle. I was going to say you pioneered damn nearer two genres that I don't think you even parade that like, hey, I help like, what we know is Miami base. Yeah. Comes from your contributions and what we now know is freestyle. Yeah, that sort of merged off. You know, one was sort of more Latin and one was more black. You know, that's the same thing, and then they went off like that.

How long did it take you to track and record Candy Girl? I'm so triggered after the James Brown thing. I have to like, wait, he did produce Candy Girl, right? Did you produce the entire album? I produced with Marie Star and Michael Johnson. They were the producers. They brought me demos, which we turned into the record in New York at Unique Studio. They were like demos.

That's where it's recorded at? Well, that's where we finished it and where a lot of the, a lot of it was mission control in Boston, the Marisa's studio. Have you seen this clip? Rehearsing, the rehearsal clip. They're playing drums and they're messing. So just working with them. Yeah. And I'm assuming that it's Ralph, Ricky, and I'm assuming that Michael and both Michaels are singing background because there's no way those guys' voices that low.

No, Maurice and Michael was singing back. Oh, Maurice and Michael. I said both Michael. Yeah, yeah. And actually, I think I do remember us talking about this before, but I wanted to talk about the actual tracking of it. Like, how long would it take to, in pre-pro tools, pre-autotune? Well, how long will it?

You've heard the vocals, right? They're not really all that well in tune. We didn't even tune. Yeah, but there's still something charming about it. Oh, listen, the charm, I'm not talking about charm, you know. Like Latin freestyle, there isn't one song where the singers are in tune. I mean, come on, they're out of tune. That's the charm.

True. But, no, Maurice and Michael did sing most of the backgrounds. Okay. And, you know, they did it, you know. You know, it took some time for sure. It wasn't easy, but, you know. How long did it take the knockout the entire record? God, it was really quick.

Once we signed Candy Girl and then it blew up so quick, we had to, like, finish the album, I was working on mixing it in New York. We mixed everything. Marisa Michael had done most of the vocals in Boston. That's why they lost the group, because the group was signed under Boston law, and it was done in Boston, Massachusetts. So the law, I mean, that, did we? That's how they got, no, no, I didn't know how they, we lightly touched on, we talked about you getting the demo, but you brought something up. And yes, I know I'm skipping Beat Street to refer to a, another film. But I always wanted to know the story of Crust Groove is in that film, the Russell character has a successful record. It's so successful he doesn't have enough money

to, you know, feed the entire nation in the world to do it. So is the Candy Girl album a great example of the burden of not being prepared for a massive moment? Yeah. Yeah. How do you handle it? If you own your label and suddenly, is there a burden when you have a successful record? Yeah, because first of all, you have to give people, people want credit. Like the distributors want credit. We need 25,000 records. We'll pay you the cost of the record for the pressing, but we won't pay you.

Some of them were fronting us some money just enough for us to pay the pressing costs. So you better have to have the upfront money to order the records? Well, we did. But then at one point, we said, forget it. It's fine. We were just like thinking we want to sell records. And then a few of the distributors ended up going bankrupt, owing us like 50 grand, 100 grand.

And that's why streetwise ended up going bus. Because new edition album killed the label. Okay. Explain to me, is that a good thing or a bad thing? It's a horrible thing because our team wasn't prepared and had never experienced that kind of success so that they didn't know what to watch out for. You know, like we were pressing, pressing, pressing, and we were paying the pressing plant until we weren't because we weren't getting paid. So it all, it was just like.

How can one sort of navigate that wave? Like Motown did it. I don't know how they did it, but they somehow managed to stay in business and all those things. but when something gets so successful, like when did you know that streetwise was over because you're too successful? And how do you nuance that to benefit you? Like such a victory that you failed.

Listen, in the book, I talk about the disaster because basically what happened was, in a nutshell, I started doing a lot of remixes. I stopped paying attention to the label, right? Okay. So basically, we're having the success. I'm out there remixing the Rolling Stones for 25 grand. and doing a lot of drugs.

And then my partner starts signing records and throwing money around. And before I know it, they're doing A&R, and we've got like 10 acts. They put out 100 grand on new music, that is shit. So basically, I just lost focus on the label. And so I'll blame myself for part of it. And then the other part was giving people too much credit on the new edition on the album. because, you know, the album sold over, definitely sold over a half a million, you know?

Yeah. And a lot of people left us hold in the bag. Distributor called Stans, and I think was in Louisiana maybe stands. And there were a few that went bust owing us hundreds of thousands, you know? Back in the mid-70s, early 80s, how many distribution centers were there? Well, each region had, you know, at least one or three.

two, you know, they'd have big distributors. I mean, there'd be distributors in one-stops, like the one-stops would get the records from, you would sell your records into a one-stop, because why they're called one-stops is it was one-stop where mom-and-pop record shops could get any label from the one-stop. Some distributors just had specific labels. One-stops had every label, like Warners would sell in, street-wise would sell in Tommy Boy, but it would be, for a small record label, you couldn't get credit from the major directly. You had to go through these things called one-stop.

And I'm only asking because I didn't realize, okay, so I'll say probably in my lifetime, I might have Stevie Wonder's songs in the Key of Life eight or nine times. Yeah. And I noticed that each record has different fonts, different. And when I asked, it wasn't Iris Gory,

Either Suzanne or Iris, I asked, like, how come you guys never had a consistent font or hue color for your labels? And she would say, oh, because we would use... Using different pressing plants and so... Various pressing plants. And it was up to them on how... Was that just typical of, like, if you want to sell Candy Girl in Florida, do you have to press it at the plant in Florida to get it? We were pretty much using soundmakers in Philly. that was the big one in Philly.

We may have used others, but to me that's the one I remember. Because the more you use, the more the chance that they could just press up unlimited records. I mean, that was the other thing that... When would you have power to button line? Like, hey, I have a new prince record. Oh, sorry, guys. Yeah, you could. You could. Okay.

But what I'm trying to say is you were trusting people who you really shouldn't be trusting. Any pressing plan could press up 5,000 and... Tell him. The whole Morris Levy's situation. Yeah, well, he was my partner in Streetwise, right? The music you love. I heart radio. Your favorite radio stations.

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It's raw I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men. Roland Martin unfiltered. I went off, I said, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Y'all going to scream at Chanel, but you don't want to see a black luxury company in the same vein. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. Twelve seats. Those are moving south. So if you Democrats, you don't wait to 2030,

you better be here. in the ground going a heart in the south now. And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Back to my crush group question. Like, at what point do you go to a guy that can help you? Somehow he came to me, I think. Like, you know, it is a long time ago.

But all I remember is Tommy Motola, who was my manager at the time. He said, you don't want to do this with Morris. And Tommy Matola's telling you this. Yeah, yeah. Wait, wasn't he also managing Holland Notes at one point? Yeah, it's the same time. That's how I...

Oh, that's... Okay. So he was managing Hall & Outs myself, August Darnell. Hence the... Tommy Mottoa... Yeah, lives down the road.

But, yeah. She, by the way, she is our financial person at the Tonight Show. My first month at the Tonight Show, Tarika and I happened to be on the elevator

going somewhere and this woman's on the elevator and she's like, oh my God, like I'm a fan of the roots and all that stuff. Cory Day, no, who? She ended it with, oh, you guys wouldn't know me. I sang a song, oh, the rapper saying, you know, Tommy Matola lives on the road.

I was like, what? Wait, we know you are. And I told her like, she said, hey, don't. I was like, I own Dr. Buzzard Records. I know. And she, yeah, she had that solo record with powwow. Yes. It's a dope track.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, she's the reason why we get paid. every week if it's a nice show. Wow. That is random. So random. But yeah, Tommy said, you don't want to do this. And I was like, yeah, but otherwise the label's just going to go under.

So, yeah, I have the more stories. I'd go to have a meeting with him flying out of my mind on cocaine. And I'd walk in and say, hey, I thought, come on in. And it'd be like the Sopranos, the guys. Right. The real guys. Uh-huh. With the chains and with the sweatsuits.

And they'd be there. And then I'd be, they knowing that I'm really fucking drugged out and him telling stories about Tommy James and the Chondell's. He got, he got Tommy, he got him clean. And then he never had another fucking hit. That was, I mean, he was, I went up to the farm. I had the sausages and, you know, and then he sort of took the label.

Yeah. How long did streetwise last after you left it? Well, they didn't sign new acts. It became just swallowed up as catalog, you know. They still, the people he sold it to, well, his son had it, then another company has it now. So to this day, if I want a Candy Girl record, like, who owns it? Candy Girl is MCA.

So they brought, yeah, they got. So when they went to MCA, did they also subsequently have to pay you to get out the label? Well, they paid Morris. That was the whole... Got you. The whole game was he got streetwise so he could get a shitload of money out of MCA when the new edition signed.

And, you know, he, MCA was known as a mafia major. So, you know, I mean, we could say that now. I see. I would say it, you know. So they had, you know, it's a moment in time that I don't like reliving really. Sorry. No, no, it's okay.

It's just like I so messed up that whole thing that I, you know, I had ADHD and on cocaine. Like I know as a band, like, you know, this New Order, Depeche Mode, like, I don't even know what to categorize it. It's part electro, it's part rock is. Indy, Indy, Schmendi, Electro, Indy. All right. So can you talk about working with New Order and how, like. How it happened? Oh, God, I can't believe.

I sound like such an amateur here. Like, explain to me the relevance of it. But, like, I know they mean the world to people. Yeah. And I've seen them. They've been on the show a few times, whatever. Yeah. But just in general, like, how did they come to your attention?

Well, a friend of mine, Michael Schenberg, the late Michael Schenberg, he knew, we knew each other from Dancateria. We just knew each other. And he was, he started Factory New York. They had a factory records was, um, in the UK, in Manchester, and basically New Order had been Joy Division. And on the eve of them coming to America to tour, Ian Curtis committed suicide. They shift, make a new group called New Order. They're making records.

They're releasing them over. And they have an office here, small office. And Michael was like, you should work with New Order. And he brought them up. And I had had Planet Rock. And they loved the idea. this is why they wanted to work with me, which is actually pretty funny. We had to settle with craft work for the melody on Planet Rock.

Yeah. And Tom Silverman decided to charge a dollar more than what we were. Basically, the fans, the buyers, had to pay a doll more for Planet Rock so we could pay craft work. Right, okay. Now, New Order thought that was so cool. Obviously, I had nothing to do with it, but that's why they wanted to work with me, which is, that's the, Because he charged more money? Well, because we worked, whatever.

That's what I was always told. Then we, they come over and they'd send me all these demos. I'd never even listen to the demos. I was like, let's write together, started writing with them, and we wrote Confusion and Thieves Like Us at Fred Zars Studio in Brooklyn, demo studio. And then we went in and we recorded. And, you know, I mean, you know, confusion is like, I always call it New Arthur, not New Order, because it's really my record, all the beats and a lot of the chants and the rat-tat-ta-tata, you know,

was all that stuff from playing at rock. You know, I incorporated that into their sound. And was the big deal of it all, the fact that rock groups were, I mean, now that I understand. But they weren't a right, they weren't a standard. See, that's the thing. If I see white people, I'd just say, oh, rock people or pop people. But you have to understand that Manchester, is closer to New York than to London in a way at that time.

And they were very open. And that's why the house Siena, which is probably the most famous club in the UK, was in Manchester because they were influenced by Dancateria, Paradise Garage, and Funhouse, all of which I took them to. And they opened up a club that would be their version of it. So this is also why I like Pet Shop Boys and Nuff. all these groups that coming out the time had that. Yeah, and well, even to the point where, okay, happy Mondays.

Right. Stone Roses. These are rock bands that were dance groups too, you know. They all played dance music to the extent that Noel Gallagher is a fan of when he met me, he was like, because of dance music. You humbled Norgo? Yeah, I did. Tell this story. He kissed my ring, I have to say, he did, you know.

Nice. Okay, so he is humble. He grew up in Manchester and all those guys who go. going to the house, the enda, doing ease, and partying. And that was like 88,

88, 89, you know, so the British culture is so different than here because, I mean, a few rock bands,

Red Hot Chili, but there are rock bands here that are into funk, you know, but in England, it was because

all the music was played on top of the pops, Radio 1. And you would hear everything growing up. It's totally different than here.

You would hear, and it was played because it was all in the top 20, you know, and you would play it and you'd see the groups and every people of all ages would sit there, your parents and your granny and everyone would watch Top of the Pops. So I think that had a lot to do with the fact that Rock Acts will want to make dance circuits. I mean, they, you know, they did. I think maybe in the last 10 years, especially, there's a lot of content on social media and some documentaries in which, I mean, I've always heard about like the disco demolition night or whatever. So I never once put it,

like I always thought the anti-disco movement. That was racist though. Right. Here's the thing though. And the music thing in England, there's no, there's no racism. That's what you have, you have to, like, think that in England, musically, there was never any racism, okay? Everyone was open to everything. I'm telling you, the reggae thing. That's the thing. Like, I've just thought, like, oh, disco sucks because they hate the arrangements or repetitive or 14 minutes. Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gay weren't disco and they would burn anything with a black face on it. Right. I didn't realize that it was the whole like our guitars won't get placed, replaced with your dance music.

So now that I saw in that context, then I got more curious at this movement that was more about big beats than, because even when the Pet Shop boys were on Soul Train, then I was having a hard time wrestling. in it. Like, you guys are like a rap group, but you're... No matter what, that doesn't work from me, you know. Well, yeah, but I mean... Well, it must have been West End Girls. Well, no, it was West End Girls. They were doing a rap on it, you know?

They sat outside at unique. They were like listening to us recording, confusion. I mean, but Neil Tennant's favorite New Order record is thieves like us, which I did the beat for. So it's sort of... We've been friends forever. But, you know, they were into dance music. They were a dance group.

There's a shout out to... Ecker Wright who did a documentary on this group called Sparks. Yeah. Of which I didn't realize the whole PetSide Boys versus Sparks controversy to that. Okay, so we got the New Order part out the way. I got to get to Beach Street. We got to make it to Sun City. No, we're down.

I'm going back to 83 to get to Sun City. All right. So how did you meet Stan Lathen and Harry Belafonty? Well, Stan Latham wasn't involved. involved in the beginning. Okay. It was another director who, it was, okay, quickly, Stephen Hager, writer, village voice writer, did an article called The Perfect Beat using the title of looking for the perfect beat that I've also used for my book. And it was optioned by first Jane Fonda. But she let it go. She let it go. I wasn't involved yet.

Okay. Then he got to Belafonte and David Picker. So he had a meeting and they offered him like the same bad deal that Jane Fonda did, like $500 or something. But we were friends, me and Steve, Stephen, and he said, do you want to be involved? I'm doing a film. I want to call it the perfect beat from your song. And I want you to do, be the music supervisor. So basically I get in.

and go meet with Harry Belafonte. And I walked into the office with Stephen and Harry Belafonte is there. Larger than life, unbelievable. And then he asked me a strange question. He goes, are you Jewish? And he asked us if we're Jewish, right? Me and Stephen.

And Stephen's like, no, no. I said, yeah, actually I am. And then he goes, okay, all right, Jaime, it's okay. You come out of the closet. and David Picker jumps out of the closet. What the hell was it? I have no idea. Why?

I have no idea. But David Picker was true. I don't know. Maybe, no, it was just some mad, crazy shit. Okay. No, no, I'm just saying it. That was my first meeting with Harold Leponte. I see.

Very weird. So he was sort of funny. It was funny. I don't know what it was meant. It was meant to be funny, you know? Okay. But, yeah. I mean, Stephen reminded me of that when I talked to him.

about Beach Street recently, not recently, before I wrote the book, because it's, you know. Was it a hard sell to try to convince anyone not even in proximity of what the hip-hop movement was? I mean, by 82, 83, like, it was still like... Yeah, there was no hip-hop movement at the time.

There was some records and some labels and there's some acts, but it was still very early because we started the film in 83. Okay. So 83 was pretty, pretty, I mean, you know, Soul Sonic had had their records. Things have happened.

But the fact that we were making a film about this new culture, which is what it was, obviously we didn't have the foresight to know in five years are people even going to like be making these records? No, no. People say they thought it, but we didn't really know it all, right? Did the higher ups at... It was Orion Pictures. Brian, did the higher ups that Orion Pictures... Well, they treated us.

such like uh well but david picker had a big he had a big rep he had done huge films so basically he wasn't inside he was a suit okay so we had a suit and we had crazy harry was this hyme he's no but we had harry who was like unbelievable guy i mean that that story it's just mental that's why i told it but but he was amazing but we you know basically i decided not only was i doing the music, but I was also picking the groups who were going to be in the film. And the thing was, through the years of writing the book, I went back to a few people, and someone like Bernard Fawler and said, you don't remember, you brought me in to meet Harry because you thought I should be in the film.

I go, no, I don't remember. He said, yeah, you got me in the film. And then Harry saw, you know Bernard Fawler. Yeah, the Peach Boys. Yeah, but he's been with the stones for like 40 years, too. I know. I know. I always thought Bernard Fala was.

the mega star that never happened because he was an amazing singer looked great was great personality but he ended up being a background singer is he part of that audition montage uh no no he's at the end when they do the gospel thing he's the yeah that's him that's him that is him killing it man i don't know what young bernard flower looks like yeah that's him and and and harry would go always call mr fowler like harry related to him because they looked a bit similar. I mean, it was like it could have been his son, you know.

And I brought in, obviously, I brought in Melly Mel and Fletcher, who were friends of mine, and Soul Sonic, and Lisa Fisher and Cindy Middell did songs. They weren't in Brenda K. Star. So basically, not only did I do the music, but I was also, but I was also doing a lot of cocaine at the time. So I had no patience with a lot of the bullshit. I mean, I'd get in the studio and just sort of make music, break his revenge being the most successful album, yeah. I was going to say that the scene in which they're battled in the club,

is that Funhouse or Dancateria? No, that's Roxy. That was the Roxy. That's the Roxy. Okay. That's the whole, the story is. And the subway battle scene where's? Battle Cray.

That was in the subway. Okay. I don't know. I wasn't at the shoots. I mean, I was at the Roxy, but. But you provided the music for that? Yeah. But you also, anything that guide David.

did, like when they're doing the ballet thing or whatever. Like, you did anything that he... I did a lot of it, but then also Harry had his son do some. Okay. David. So then we sort of fell out over that because he brought his son in. But also, Diadado did a lot of music too, randomly. Really?

Lala. He had that girl Lala. I did not know that. Okay. Yeah, so there's a few. And he did some of the scoring. And I brought him Weps to Lewis, so he did some stuff too. Man, he brought in the heavy hitters.

Yeah. Well, we had a budget, man. Okay. This record is on. Miley is having a moment. New name, close to shows. So IHart Radio is sending you to experience it all.

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Stream Miley's new album, Bass Persuades, today. Didn't catch the latest. Roland Martin Unfiltered Podcast. Here's what you missed. And the argument is, do you want to win? If you don't win, you have no power. It's real.

Those are the very people who I always say vote against their own economic interest and they complain about the very thing to receive. It's raw. I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men. Roland Martin unfiltered. I went off. I said, this is a good. Exactly what I'm talking about.

Y'all going to scream at Chanel, but you don't want to see a black luxury company in the same vein. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. 12 seats. Those are moving south. So if you Democrats, you don't wait to 2030, you better be hitting the ground going hard in the South now. And download Roland Martin Unfiltered on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts.

Wherever you get your podcasts. You guys didn't exploit Dougie fresh in a way that... We discovered him. I had him signed to Streetwise, too, but that was another... But my whole thing is that I remember, like, when B. Street came out, we saw it the day after it opened. Wow, okay. And so when watching the Christmas scene with the Treacher Street and Dougie, yeah. I was like, how come in the audience I didn't realize...

that beatboxing was like this undiscovered territory. Like, we thought it was a gimmick, you know, so. How come I didn't like, oh my God, like, it's like the wheel or fire? What you didn't, when you saw it, it just sort of went by you. It went by me. And then I think, and then I interviewed Doug on this platform. And he was like, well, I was the first beatboxer. Like, a lot of people thought the fat boys were first.

No, he was first. But the fat boys exploit it like, yo, I'm making drums. And then when I rewatch Beach Street, I was like, yo, like, A missed opportunity. Yeah. There's this five seconds of me not noticing, oh, my God, this guy's drumming with his mouth or whatever. But, I mean, how did you guys know of Doug's reputation? I mean, you'd probably have to ask him, but, I mean, he was in the film in, like, dance scenes.

He was, like, hanging out. He told me, I hit him up. I'm like, you're all over this film, but I didn't read. That's why I asked. But I think he probably came to the idea. I'm assuming, see, I wasn't at all the things. Oh, so there was an open call? Like, in backstage?

Yeah, it was an open call. Yeah. Brenda K. Star came and she sang. I mean, people. Is this how you got to meet Mariah eventually through Brinda Kay? Yeah, through that. Okay. But the thing is, we had an open call at the Roxy, and people came and auditioned.

And Brenda auditioned, she got in. And Dougie, I guess, auditioned. He got in, and I signed both of them. You know, I signed... Who was the audition committee? Like Harry, David Picker, Michael Holman was there, I think. Okay. You know, my partner...

Were you allowed to... I was there, but I was... I don't remember a lot of it. I was really on cocaine. Okay. I'm sorry, I'll admit it. I can't take any blame for that. Okay.

You know, I made some really good tracks. I made some crappy tracks. And, you know, basically, you know, I did my job. And then when the movie came up, well, the other thing was that the artist hated the process, like Soul Sonic. All the guys were like, hurry up and wait. Well, it was more like they wouldn't let them smoke a cigarette. They wouldn't let them have a beer. You know, you already.

It was like Biggs, Mr. Beardy, man, shit ain't right, you know. We want to have a beer and smoke a cigarette. You got to talk to Harry, you know. It's like, so I'd go to Harry and go, the guys aren't happy, you know. So he was, Harry was hands on for this whole production? Harry was the producer. He was there at every shoot. He was, some producers are rubber stamp producers.

Yeah, but man, think about it. This is, he's put his ass on the line for this hip-hop culture thing to a major film label. And he was out there promoting it. He went to Cannes with it. He went all over the world. This was. B Street went to can? Yeah.

Yeah. It premiered a can, and they brought the New York City breakers. Oh, okay. Yeah, and a lot of the acts went, and I didn't go because I was like... Went to the next? Yeah, yeah. It was an experience. It was, you know, it was, I mean, I'm really happy we did it, and now I'm happy we're doing...

I was going to say, talk about bringing it to Broadway with Nas. Nine years ago, myself and my wife, Annette, after seeing Hamilton, she said, you know what? Why don't you do a Beach Street musical? And I said, you know what? No reason not to. So I went to Holman because he had been involved in the dance stuff. Right. And we started working on a presentation.

And we got our partner who's this guy, Richard Fern, from the UK. We went, an old B-boy, he was like 12 when he saw it. And he loved it. And he was like, okay, I'm in. So we had like a month. We had the idea a month. We get funding. And then it's taken us nine years to get it.

You know. That sounds about right. So it's taken us nine years. Two years ago, my friend Faye had seen Nas on the Daily Show going, Trevor Noah went, what's your favorite movie? And Nas went, well, you know, you probably don't know it, but it's this hip-hop film. It's called Beach Street.

My friend called me up, Fay. Yeah, Arthur. And then I threw Peter and Mass Appeal. Right. So two years in, he came. Two years ago he came on board. We showed the Tribeca. And now we're getting there.

We got a great writer. We got, you know, Christopher Diaz from who did Hell's Kitchen. Oh, cool. So he's on there. We got Shelley Williams, the director. She's directing. Okay. So we're Jason Michael Webb, who did MJ.

We got our super squad. So very exciting. So coming soon. Very well. Be through the... You know, man. Where's a Soul Train? Dog.

It's... Yeah. brought away such a hard hill to climb. Yeah, but we had our first table reading yesterday. Nice. And it sounded amazing. Okay. And we got great characters and it's really exciting because it's this dream.

You're doing all the music or? I'm doing music. I'm doing, I'm one of the lead producers right now. And is it staying to the 83? Yeah. A little earlier, actually. It's actually what we wanted to be is sort of, Rapper's Delight has happened.

Okay. It's right. It's before Planet Rock. It's definitely that era, just the birth of it all, you know? Does it plan to show hip-hop aesthetics, i.e., DJing and... Yeah, the whole culture, B-boyan and graffiti and everything. Well, the way we're going to do it is obviously you're living in a world. It's the world of that time, and you're living in this world, and it's...

you don't know hip hop starting but it probably isn't even called hip hop yet you know it's that at that moment and then you know obviously later on at some point we look back and celebrate where it's gone but you know it's still trying to tell the story of the kids in the bronx who created something that is now the biggest musical movement of our lifetime so you know it's exciting so i I briefly want to just ask you about party time and Def Jam. But before I get there, during this time period, are you rubbing shoulders with your small circle of contemporaries? Yeah, of course.

You're Larry Smith's, where's Rick Rubin and all this? Yeah, Roddy Way, Green Street, you know, because John Roby would work at Green Street Studio. We'd go down to Chung King with John King. with John King's, you know, his studio. So there was like, you know, because we were all like hanging out together. And yeah, I think I probably knew Russell before.

I knew Russell when I made Swept Away because we were at Bentley's one night. And he heard Swept Away. He goes, you know, man, that beat's too nervous. That beat, I don't like that beat. It's too nervous, hardly. You're too beat. I love that, a Diner Ross song is getting judged on the beat.

Yeah, well, swept away. You know, it was a pretty, What was that session like? What with Diana? Amazing. She was so great. She came in, first time we met, it was me and Daryl, and she came up to Shakedown Studios.

And Tommy Mottola lent us his limo. And we listen to some music. Darrell plays the demo of Swept Away. She loves it. Get in the limo, have a bottle of wine. We're driving around New York drinking red wine. And then we cut her. vocal in that studio underneath

Studio 54. I forget the name of it. This is... Well, there's a studio at Studio 54. So basically, she showed up in a Bentley. She had a Bentley. Right. And she comes in wearing a floor-length mink stone, mint coat.

And she comes out and then... I hope it's February. It was February. Okay. Yeah. But then she goes in the bathroom and comes out and she's wearing like a sweatsuit. And she's hopping up and down. And she's like, I'm ready, I'm ready. So basically, she starts saying, she's going out with Gene Simmons at the time.

I remember this period. And he, she had like a box he had given her. And it was like a, she opened up, it was like a chocolate cock, like a, like that. Like, you know. This is a very Gene Simmons thing to do. To do. And then we're like, okay, you know. And then her and Darrell go in and they're doing backgrounds.

And I'm like, they're out of tune. And I'm like, could you guys? Who's going to be the person to tell her? Well, it was me, you know? They were out of tune. You know, but it was, making that track was a great, really fun. She came to the studio. And he got not all to play on it.

Did you not? Not on that track. He did the track, but he's not on that track. That's Gene, Gene, uh, the guitarist from Holland Oates was on Saturday Night Live forever. G. Smith. G. Smith. G. Smith. G.

So G. Smith was on that. Robbie Kilgore, who had played on Let the music play, Shannon. I brought him in on it, and then he became part of Holland Outs. group. So he was the Hall of Notes. He plays that great arpeggiator line on Swept Away. But it was great, and then we went in to mix it, and she wanted to be involved,

and she was there, and she had a couple of glasses of red fell asleep, snoring behind me and Chris Lord Algae as we're mixing it. But she was great. I mean, I only did the one song, so it was still fresh that if I had done more, it was Yeah. And it was her last top 20 record.

It was. I brought that from my mother's birthday. Yeah. Yeah. So did you at all work with or know of Larry? Larry Smith? Larry Smith. He's one of the mythical figures that... I met him at Green Street because they were doing those records at Green Street.

Okay. And yeah, he was amazing. He was like totally slept on and, you know, he was the guy. Before Rick brought Rock to rap, he did it before. As technology is moving at the speed of sound. Yeah. like at this point are you just acquiring every drummer

scene possible like when DMX is coming out you're like okay 808 goodbye yeah I did yeah so I mean like I love the DMX I know like I associate you with that more than anything because everyone was biting on on the 808 everyone was using the 808 that's all I told how did you feel about

when I heard when I heard Jim and Lewis when they did the SOS band just be good to me and I was woken up by my alarm and I hear the beat and I'm going, oh no, fuck, they've discovered it. Someone's discovered the 80, well, how could they not? But when I did the 808 film, they were saying, you know, when they heard Planet Rock, that was like a big, a huge moment for a lot of people who made records at the time because it was a coolest sounding machine.

I mean, it just sounded cool. But then once everyone was using it, and then when I heard the DMX, I was like, that sounds like the drums. It had a tight snare. It really, so, but then, and so on Breakers Revenge, I used mostly DMX, but then, listening back, I used a lot of the percussion from the 808 because that was really unmind territory, I thought. It was still really, you know. Could you, with MIDI technology, could you marry the two together? Yeah, you could, yeah.

Was it ever nightmares or just like MIDI-U'll solve everything? Yeah, it was pretty nightmare. It would slip, like I'm walking on sunshine. we had the DMX and by the end, and some of the keyboards were programmed by Fred Zarr, and by the end it slipped a bit, but then I had Peewee Ford do the baseline live and Bicherry, so they played to the slippage, so it was fine.

It sounded like a live band, really. Were you ever a Lynn guy at all, Lindrum? No, just Lynn samples. Like once I got samples of Linz, because I thought like the clap and, you know, I guess Prince, was he reading well the lindrum i've found out that the claps on the lindrum are tuned down tune down tom petty and the heartbreakers where are they like he recorded yeah tom petty

in the hallway of whatever studio he was in okay so one of my favorite memoirs that i've read in the pandemic was uh little stevens journey right and music great great great book great book yeah his positioning of everything is like everything I ever want it. He remembers everything. He talks about how he hated mixes. He was honest about leaving during the glory period and all that stuff. But no story like had me on the edge of my seat. His tale of getting Sun City made, it's a movie. Well, there's going to be a movie? A biopic, supposedly. And a doc. There's a doc happening to.

But the biopic, when he called me up, said, hey, Arthur, there's going to be a bi. Great, you already nailed them. There's going to be a biopic. Oh, am I in it? Yeah, yeah, it's me and you, man. You know, so it's like, it's. Okay, so tell me from beginning to end. Okay.

First of all, explain to people why there was a need for the record. song called Sun City. Okay, at that time, Sun City was in Badat, Tutswana, which South Africa said it was a different country. They were like, it's a different country. There's a club, there's a casino called Sun City, and American acts could play there, British acts, because it's not in South Africa, but it was in South Africa. So Stephen and I had been introduced to each other by Jimmy I.

I mean, see, he forgets a few things. Like, that's how we met. We were working together. I had done Springsteen remixes before that. Right. And basically, I was working with Cindy Lauper on a remix of Good Enough for the Goonies, and she told me she thought it sounded like African, whatever. And then she started talking about South Africa.

She did, in fact, start talking about South Africa. To me, I call Steve and I go, hey, you know what? We should do a record about. South Africa, anti-aparctic. He said, I've already got the song. I already wrote, I go, what? So this was like this random occurrence. And then he brought me the demo over to shake down.

And I was like, I'm in, let's do it. You know, let's make this record. And from there on, we were like partners in this and just went on without thinking anything through. Really, we financed it by my studio. Is this in 84? It was 80. Well, the album came out in 85.

85. It was 85. Oh, okay. I was under the impression like it took a year to even. No, it took like six months maybe. It seemed like lifetime, you know. Because his idea from day one, okay, so we get the demo. And then I said, well, we should get another voice on it.

So Will Downing, who was signed to my production company, he was the first voice on Sun City other than Stephen, right? Okay. So we do the demo, and then Stephen goes, you know, I wanted to be rockers and rappers. I want it to be all inclusive. You know all the rappers, which I did. So basically, that's how, but we got involved because I have my studio, so my studio's in, I'm all in, and then me and him start meeting to make our wish list, right, of the X. And we'd meet at the Sun, Sunrise Diner on 57th Street.

because he lived on one side of 57th and I lived on the other. Okay. So literally between 8th and 9th, or 7th and 8th. And we would meet at the diner. We'd make a list on one of those, you know, table things, paper things.

So obviously this is based on like having seen we other world and the effect of, do they know it's Christmas? Yeah, I mean, I guess. I mean, we always wanted to be more inclusive. And it was very important that we gave rappers their voice, which they had no voice in either one of those records.

Watchers meant the idea of getting a whole bunch of people together. Yeah, but he wanted to heat. But his idea was we'll get four rappers and four rockers. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Go bigger than that. You are, you know who you are, and you know who I know, so we can get whoever we want. And it was like me having to sell him on the fact that...

It can be bigger. It could be bigger. Okay. Because he, you know, he was sort of in this odd... placed at that point because he had been in Springsteen's band, obviously forever. He leaves the band and then he's like starting in on this thing, a journey that we don't even know if it's going to end up coming out. Right.

You know, and we would make these lists and gradually the rappers were the guys who came in first, you know, Run DMC, Melly Mel, Duke Booty, Ed Fletcher, you know, Bambada, Curtis Blow. I mean, we, you know. Like, how do you know that? Who should sing what? It's going to be four bars of rapping here, and then Miles Davis is going to say something here. No, we rearranged it in the edit, but we recorded it long,

so that we recorded it too long. And then we'll chop it up. Whenever anyone would sing, see that, okay, let me, before I get ahead of myself, so we get the rappers on, they're in the intro and they're in the breakdown, right? Yeah. And then we start going for singers, and we gradually get like the most incredible line of Bobby Womack and George Clinton and Joey Ramon and Nona Hendrix and, you know, Peter Gabriel. I mean, they were like everyone's on, you know, it was like the coolest record that you could imagine.

And obviously, Miles showing up was. What was that like? Because he even got him to talk. Well, he's, no, but speak. But he did that on, no, I'll do it quickly, but, okay, we're thinking he's going to show up, but we never know when he's going to show up. Right. And then one night there's a buzz on my intercom. Yo, man, it's Miles, let me in.

And I look at that's in. And Bonnie Radis in there singing, and I look, I go, Stephen, Miles, Miles. We're like, shit, you know, because we were all intimidated by him, you know, the stories of Miles Davis. So we go and we get him. And he's, like, got the polka dot, you know, scarf. And he's, like, so cool. He's, you know, as a motherfucker, he's, like, walks in. And he walks back to my control room.

And Kashif and Bonnie Rader there. Kachief's there? Yeah, he's in the record. He's on the record. Okay. So he's there. And like, Bonnie's like, okay, it's okay. She gets out of the booth.

And she goes, Miles, I love what you do with your horn. And Miles's like, yeah, baby, it's just my thing, you know. It's just like anything. The Miles, you can be with Miles Davis for half an hour and you got 10 stories. The guy was like a walking, you know, I mean, but so basically he goes in there and, you know, Stephen and me are behind the board. And Stephen, you know, do one with, you know, one with a mute, one with this, you know, so we did three takes. And then we have a cameraman. And you just let him.

Well, we said, you know, we want something for the intro and something for this breakdown. But you can play all the way through. So he played all the way through, like three takes over like seven minutes, right? which becomes important after this bit of the story. So basically, you know, we already had Herbie Hancock on the track. He was playing synthesizer. So somehow we got him. And then there's a cameraman in there, a white cameraman in the control, in the performing room,

in the vocal booth. And at some point he said, you can't come in here. You're the wrong color. And we're thinking, we're like, we don't know what to think. Is he talking to the cameraman? So we, so Danny Schechter, who is such a big part of the story, he was a 2020 producer. But when I was growing up in Boston, he was the radio, the news guy at WBCN, which was the radio station that influenced me and many other people.

Okay. And he was what was called Danny Schechter, the news disector. And he was, this is during the Vietnam. Warren. He was like the guy. So he was working at 2020. So he was getting us the whole camera crew. But Danny had no, he'd say anything to anyone because that was, he was like a punk journalist. So he goes up to, my-hler, no fear. Hey, Miles, you know, what you just said, could you do that again so we could get you on camera doing it? So Miles said, yeah, sure, man, yeah. So we did it. And it was like amazing. And we ended up using it. I was warning how y'all got that out of him.

Yeah, no, he came up with it. And we were like, It was like his moment that it came into his head. He was being, he was the voice of South Africa. You can't come into you the wrong color. And it blew us all away. Yeah, I totally. It blew us all away. And then, you know, he was smiling at the end of the session.

We got a photo, me and him and Stephen, and he's got the biggest smile. He had a great, I mean, it was a great moment for sure. And then to continue, we had a whole performance of him. so we ended up getting Herbie, Tony Williams, Ron Carter. You reunited the... We did the thing. Classic quintet. Yeah, and they played under his solo.

I gave you a copy of that for your birthday a few years ago. No, I know I have the album. Yes. And literally, we had them play under his solo. And that's the song The Struggle Continues, which is amazing. It's an amazing song. So... The music you love.

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and they complain about the very thing to receive. It's raw. I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men. Roland Martin Unfiltered. I went off, I said, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Y'all going to scream at Chanel, but you don't want to see a black luxury company in the same vein. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. Twelve seats, those are moving south.

So if you Democrats, you don't wait to 2030, you better be hitting the ground going hard in the South now. And download Roland Martin Unfiltered on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. So when you get, and this is everyone, like I know Springsies on it, Bronno's on it, was Ruffin. Ruffin and Kendricks, Eddie Ruffin. And Hall, not Hallin'Ots.

Yeah, David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks. Everyone, my wish list of my favorite vocalist. Anyone on the wish list that didn't do it? I think we reached out, well, we wanted Cindy Lauper because she had been like somewhat in my mind of why. The impetus of. Yeah, and she didn't want to do it. And I think we got in touch with, God, it was either, I mean, we did reach out to Prince.

We did reach out to Stevie. Michael Jackson, I think they were saying they wanted to do their own. Ashford and Simpson, they were going to do their own song. Got it. So basically, there were a lot of people who wanted to do their own thing and didn't turn it down. Stephen talks about Frank Zappa who totally dissed us you know he went to Stephen like

you're just doing this for the press. Like a performative? Yeah no like he was really nasty and Stephen was like and he was a real fan of Zappas and Stephen said you know if I wanted press I just left the biggest band in the world I'm doing it

because I believe in this thing you know so Zappa was an asshole you know which there's always a contrary yeah but for the most part everyone yeah we had Pete Townsend playing guitar on it Ringo Starr and Zach played drums on it but also at this time period Ray Berretto I mean we had and Gil Scott Herron yeah it was huge I mean big youth I mean we once you completed it how hard was it to get mainstream coverage of it and get the support of the press so that the world

can be aware no the press we had no problem with press because what a story it was. I sent you a clip of Greg Tate writing about it. That was amazing. I was like, that's one of my favorite reviews ever. It's just like such a great review. I'm like, you know, whatever. That was just, you know, magic.

But we didn't have a problem with press. We had a problem with radio, you know. And the thing was, we had MTV because we had gotten MTV to come on board with us and help us finish the video. and the making of doc. Got it. So basically we went up to see Les Garland, me and Stephen, and he was like, oh, yeah, we'll get involved, you know,

because Stephen was a bit on, he was on top of the world because of Springsteen, you know, was that moment. So basically they came on board. So we had them playing it, okay, how we got to finish it really quickly. We had a deadline that it was going to be world premiere on MTV and wasn't really finished. I finished the edit of the video the night before. We're finishing up, me and this guy, Hart Perry, who was one of the producers, finishing it up. Stephen comes in, he's had a full night's sleep, and me and Hart have been up doing drugs and finishing the thing.

And then that day, we walk it over to MTV and hand it to him, and two hours later it's on MTV, World Premier. It was just two hours old before. Literally. We walked it over, gave them the tape. What took so long in order to... Well, have you seen the video recently? It's like pretty crazy video. It is.

And it's seven minutes, right? And we... It just took a long... Well, Godley and Cream were hired to do the edit. They did... Okay. So they were doing the edit and Beinhardt were there with them, and they smoke a lot of marijuana, as you know.

You could tell by their videos. So basically, we, me and Hart were... go and they're like packing up. It's the night before we're supposed to do the premiere. They're packing their shit up. And I'm like, yeah, where are you going? Oh, yeah, mate. Sorry, I didn't tell you.

We got a paid gig in London. We got to leave. I go, but it's not done. It's not done. Yeah. Well, sorry, you know, like, sorry. So they leave and me and Hart are there, and we're like, oh, shit. And Hart is a filmmaker.

And there wasn't a tech there. and I just call up a guy to bring us something to keep us up all night. And the two of us finish the edit. So when you see Bono kissing the fat boys in that, that was me. The last two minutes, me and Hart did the edit. We decided everything in there. So you'll see I got all my boys in there, Fletcher, Mel. Now I've got to re-watch this again.

No, watch the end, and you'll see where I took over the edit. But we got it in. But the record company, okay, I could talk about this favorite, but the record company was Manhattan Records, which was Bruce Lundville, who amazing guy. Bruce Lundville. He was my boss at Blue Note, I think. Yeah, but he used to work at Columbia,

sign bill withers. Yeah, and then he took over, he had, he had EMI, and they made this new label Manhattan. Got it. Who I tried to get the Beastie Boys sign of Manhattan. That's a whole other story, but basically, it's on Manhattan and they have their promotional department

and there was one guy who was obviously a racist he was like I can't play I'm not going to be able to get this played and we had to do different edits and all that but basically... Yeah I was going to say why so many edits on the 12 inch? Well there were lots Well there's a lot of people

Well because I couldn't make a decision because I was on cocaine probably So is each singer singing the song down and then you decide who gets what line? Oh, my God. No, don't even go there. So wasn't that we are the world method of this year line, this year line, this.

Because I was like, oh my God. I was like, put off the decision until the end and Stephen couldn't make a decision. Some singers would be like, okay, you focus on that verse. But when you have Bobby Womack and George Clinton and Eddie and David,

we're like, sing the whole thing. We'll figure it out. know. With Bruce, I think, you know, being that we're doing this doc, and I'm getting all the tapes, because I want to hear the version with Bruce sing it all the way through. We just missed the 40th, like, you could do a version with each person singing it. We should. We'll do it when the doc comes out. But some of the people who sang it, I mean, Bobby Womack, what a singer. I mean, they were all in my studio, and they were in my studio together. Bobby, George, Eddie, and David.

I'm afraid to ask. And they followed me in the bathroom. Yeah, I was going to say. They're like, they're like, who's holding? You hold them in? You hold them in? Yeah, I was the ringleader. I was definitely the ringleader on it.

There's a story in George Clinton's memoir about, it's the start of a great joke, which is Slice Stone, George Clinton, David Ruffin, walking to a cocaine czar's house in Detroit. Yeah. And somehow Sly manages to walks the czar to the back of the car and lifts the trunk and shows him like six two inch reels and says this is the unreleased Sly and the family stone record from like 1973 or whatever. And the guy is like, I just got big like, you're giving this to me? He's like, yeah, a tradeoff. I'll give you the unreleased slide on the family stone record.

You can have the masters release it. all the money, just give us this key. And later that night, they're back in the house. And then George realizes that Sly basically gave that guy six blank reels. And George woke up at four in the morning to sort of broker a deal. Like, this guy will kill me. Yeah. And literally, this is real.

Oh, it's in the book. Oh, okay. And when George admits, like, what happened, it was like, I'll pay the money back. And it shows you how charming and charismatic. Sly was because anyone else would have just like killed George on the spot and the guy is like oh wow man that guy's so charming like literally yeah he could charm the pants off you and well got away with yeah amazing that but yeah I can only imagine George Clinton David Ruffin Eddie Kendricks and Bobby Womack Bobby Womack Bobby Womack who's the you know the Rolling

Stones he's a seventh member or whatever I know I I had the only time I've had, I don't even know what I'm getting this story. We did a show of Bobby Womack one night and let's just say. You got pulled in, you got pulled in, you got sucked into the abyss. Let's just say that when the ambulance arrived and carried him out, I ran home. I'm like, I'm not going to jail. I'm not going to do it. Like literally.

Yeah, yeah. We're like, lay down, Bobby Womack. And it's your worst nightmare. Yeah. And he falls out on stage. Oh, really? I ran down the streets of Manhattan to my hotel room. Wow. Wow. It was an experience that it's my favorite.

Obviously, it's the thing I'm most proud of having done. It's my favorite project because it was just the people I got to interact with in the studio. Peter Gabriel, again, he showed up on his own, walks in the studio. He had just had the biggest record in the world, you know. And he came and he just gave him the log drum and the beat, and he just created this thing out of thin air and then we went in with Stephen and with Doug Winbush

and they played a track and that became, you know, No More Apatide was the name of that song. Right. So the album is really magical because it all came out of, you know, the stuff we'd recorded. It was sort of the first remix,

in a way, remix album because it really, each song, except for silver and gold, which Barna wrote for Stephen, but, you know, But it was, yeah, you know, it was amazing. It was an amazing experience. So knowing, well, I don't know what you know now, but, you know.

Don't do drugs, kids. No, no, well, I'm still talking about the music business. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So, you know, I often wonder, you know, had we waited five years, you know, we could have benefited from, like, the wave of the internet. and all the same, we, I'm talking about the roots or whatever. But with you, seeing how music is made today and you can create something literally on this device and you can share it with billions of people. Oh, you can sing.

I used to sing my ideas on a cassette and bass lines and stuff like that. Or your answer machine. Yeah, and now I can take that cassette that I did, which I've done. I've done one, but take that baseline, put it into Suno, and I've got a baseline, which is, in a way, how I always did write, because I wasn't a trained musician. So I would sing parts to my collaborators, and they would do it. So I sort of... So are you still a tech head? I was never a tech head.

I will use technology, but I'm not a tech head. But you came as an 808. You're a tech head. Yeah. Well, sort of, I think. Yeah, but I'm not a techhead. I used it and I'd fall into it. I would never master it. I would totally... So you never considered yourself a tech head or a gearhead or... No, I used technology. But everything about you... But I used it, but I wasn't like I have to have that thing. I was never that guy. I was not that guy. I wasn't that guy. I was more... I was an artist. I am an artist. I will take that. I want to make my own music. I was never a producer per se.

Is there an example of a song that you worked on that didn't rely on big beats or... Al Green Messages Love that I wrote the song. Is that 87? 80, 89. Okay. Yeah, I wrote the song after quitting drugs and I had this vision in my head and I wrote the song with my friend and we went in. I mean, it's a drum machine, but it's not a drum machine record. I mean, you use technology as tools, but even on play your own risk and all those records I made early on, there was always acoustic piano.

I always try to keep it grounded in real musicians, you know? I mean, really, even new addition, you know, it was a drum machine, but everything else was played, you know. So I don't find myself, I embrace technology, but I'm not all about technology. know, there are other guys who are all about... Well, this ruins my question because my thing was like... Well, my thing was like, have you ever, like, thought about developing your own drum sounds, your own drum machines? Like... You know, like Little John called up and said, oh, you got all your samples, you should do, you know... I'm ADHD.

I can't do it. You know, someone else? Okay. You know what I mean? I don't... I've had ideas on tech ideas that... I won't mention because someone that will steal it who hears it, but more to do with DJ culture,

that there's things that actually, that you actually said something about something that this would take care of it, but, you know, it's just when you're playing different records, you know. You said something, I forgot to ask you this long ago. With developing party time, yeah.

Like, did you knowingly give the baton to Rick Rubin to take over because you really didn't go far and too, hip-hop as I expected you to. Yeah, and I'll tell you why. Tell me why. Because I wasn't really bored with it, but the thing was, right, I was making hip-hop records or rap records that were dance records. Right.

They were all of the Renegades of Funk, Perfect Beat, Planet Rock. I made those like I was making a dance record with rap on it. When it started going downbeat and more, you know, it's going. being the per, I wasn't really, I mean, I liked them, but I, that wasn't what I could make. You know what I mean? So when you heard, it takes a nation of millions to hold us back or whatever, like, from a production standpoint, was your mind-blum? Yeah, yeah, it was because, yeah, my, I loved the production on that. Original concept when they were using the 808.

Yeah. But when I heard it's yours, Jazzy Jay played it for me, I was like, because they had obviously listened to Planet Rock and been influenced with the crowd. with the hook. It's you, you know. So basically Rick has said, you know, that was like the first rap record with a hook, you know, with rock rock, rock, the planet rock.

So when I heard it, I was like, wow, this is great. I want to put it out. I want to put, and I had started party time as a rap label, but with ADHD, I couldn't focus on it. So I started putting out all these other dance records on it. So it really lost the focus.

And it's just hitting me right now that you put out a record of my godfather. So my dad's best friend was a gentleman named Billy Jackson. Billy Jackson and the Christmas record. Yeah. Have a happy Chris.

Yeah, so I was putting, dude, I put out records. Oh God, I can't believe. Like, you literally hit me at this moment. Yeah, you just realized. Oh, God, you're responsible for that record. So Billy Jackson, I had Dr. John Jetset. Have you ever heard that? No.

That's amazing. That's Ed Fletcher, Duke Booty, wrote the rap on it. You've got to, I mean, you've got to go listen to it now. Okay. It's amazing. It's amazing. Like, Ed Fletcher was the percussionist in Dr. John's band, and he wrote, obviously, the message. So Duke Booty was a drummer first? He was a percussionist. A percussionist. So he was a percussionist, jazz, he played with Dr. John, with Mac. Got it. And then once he hit, he was writing a lot of stuff that he had done for Sugarhill. Uh-huh.

And then he fell out with Sylvia. Yeah. And then he brought me New York, New York. I was going to take that and then put it out on streetwise. Okay. But then he got scared that they would kill him, you know. Right. So he gave it back to them.

But Jet Set. It was that real back then? Well, I don't know if they'd kill him, but he wasn't, you know, going to risk it. He wasn't going to get a risk. Or find out. Okay. So, yeah, Rick Rubin. And the thing with that record, that blew up, it's yours.

And Rick had wanted his own sleeve. He had that totally, I want Def Jam. I want Def Jam party time. And then what happened was we pressed up 25,000 sleeves because we thought, oh, it'll sell about that. And then the sales were through the roof. And we started. So is this the second time you've gotten burnt by success? Like something so successful?

It was more that he wanted us to wait to get the covers. And we were saying, well, we're going to lose all these sales. So we put out some of those not in the Def Jam sleeve, which he was pissed off about. Gotcha. And then the company, I think, went under before they ever got their payments or something, you know. Yeah. Like, I forgot my introduction to party time was. So the quickest backstory is that in my dad's old these days, another group from Philly is a group called The Times.

Yeah. So in love. So in love. Yeah. Oh, God, you will trust me. Okay. Even the weirdest part. That was a disco era.

On that same record, there's a song called, we are under the same cloud. Are you looking? Yeah. And I hate to say this. You know, it's a song about a John cruising the streets. Yeah. Are you looking? Yeah.

And I forgot. that my sister, there was like a skit at the beginning. Yeah. And it's like, my father's driving the car. My sister's like, Daddy, look that woman over there. And then you hear, hey, hey, hey, and that's my mother.

Oh, my God. So I'm like, great. My mom's. Is that on RCA times? Yes, yes. I have that record. I get to go find it. It is.

It's called, Are You Looking? But Billy has always been, like any time he comes around the house, he's basically trying to convince my dad to, my dad's sort of just been kind of heartbroken over the industry and all that stuff and kind of just not wanting to do anything. He keeps coming over like, let's make music.

And I remember one time he gave me a box of these records and party time. Oh, wow, okay. And I just remember, have a happy Christmas, have a very happy Christmas. I didn't sign that one. I didn't sign that one. That was my partners who were like just signing random stuff. Well, look, for you to gather your memories and sort of make this book, like, what is the feeling of finally getting this out, especially now that you're in the state of sobriety and going through all this stuff in your life? Yeah.

Just like in general, like, what's the process of why did you feel the need to? My wife told me to write the book for my daughter, because my daughter is 12. So she can't read it yet. But when it came out last year, I go into a room and there's like a light, like, from under her blanket. And I go and she's got the book and she's reading it. And she goes... Does she know who you are? Or you're just still daddy?

Well, I'm still daddy. She knows I made record. She gradually is knowing that, like, when she has Planet Rock or anything that sounds like that, she goes, that's my pup is beat or whatever. But she's in there looking, reading. she's at this chapter in there. And she's go, is this one I shouldn't be reading? And it's the one, too much drugs.

Right. The chapter. So I go, yeah, you can hold off on that. But I did write it. I wrote it for that reason. That's a beautiful reason then. And I got a publishing deal for it before I had written it. I had a couple of chapters.

And they thought, you can write pretty well. And at first I was going to work with someone. And then I was working with a really good friend of mine who became an editor, but he put it in more British because he's English. And I was like, I would never, I didn't say that because we talked through a few chapters. I never said that. So I said, I'm going to write it, which again, I wrote it myself. And then that was really difficult for me because of the ADHD, but I had the check and, you know, I had like a third, a third, a third. So I actually did it and did pretty much in a timely fashion. But it was great because I

remember a lot, right? I do remember a lot. But then I had kept all track sheets and cassettes that were dated. A dated cassette is very important because you're in the studio. I was making that mix with Bruce Springsteen on that date. But wait a minute, I was working with Holland Oates on that date too. Right. I went to two studios in one day. Oh shit. How did I do, you know. So this helps you remember your timeline. It was the only way and all the press clippings that my dad had kept. So I went through the press clippings and I had a song called Leave the Guns at Home with Al Green that I wrote, right?

Which Greg Phillingains. And the day that I was meant to go to write with Greg, I was in the Mondrian in L.A. And I pick up a copy of Rolling Stone magazine. I had no idea for the song. I'm like, okay, I'm reading, reading, reading. And KRS1, there's an article, KRS1. KRS 1. He's talking about

when his fans come to his gigs, he tells them to leave their guns at home. And I thought, oh my God, that is the perfect chorus for this song. I had totally forgotten about that until I found some press from 30 years ago with me telling that story. I didn't remember it at all. So reading my old press where I had said this stuff,

it gave me, you know, half, not half, but quite a bit of the book would not have existed if I wasn't a hoarder. Wow. I hoarded. Thank God. From one hoarder to another. Don't throw away your press clippings, you know? Never.

Arthur, thank you very much for this. Thanks. I'm glad we've done it. It's taking forever. From day one, you had just started, we're on the roof at the Sowell House in Miami. I know. I'm going to get you on, man. I know.

We made it happen. And then when the book came out and you had like stopped the podcast, I don't know, my God. God, come on. Sorry. I'm sorry. No, this is great. And thank you. And it's always a pleasure to sit down and chat with you. Good, sir.

Thank you. Arthur Baker, ladies and gentlemen. We'll see you on the next to go around. Questlove show. Questlove show is hosted by me. Amir Questlove Thompson. Executive producers are Sean G. Ryan Calhoun and me.

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Check out hundreds and hundreds of TOLS episodes, including the Questlove Supreme shows in our podcast archives. Questlove shows the production of IHeartRadio. Catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast. Here's what you missed. There should not be a single law enforcement agency. It does not have body cameras. It's real.

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