The Questlove Show - Black Music Month QLS Classic: James Mtume Part 1

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

In part 1 of 2 from Questlove Supreme's 2017 interview with late, legendary musician and songwriter James Mtume reminisces about his historical relationships with legendary Jazz musicians like Miles Davis, walks team supreme through the songwriting process and explains the origins of "Mtume."  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

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Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode.

Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say, you know, trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. What up, y'all? It's Laiae from Team Supreme. Okay, so it's June, and you know it is Black Music Month. Now, this month in its cause was started by my godmother, Deanna Williams, the legendary Kenny Gamble, and the great Ed Wright.

Back in 1979, after being invited to the White House along with the Black Music Association. Now, the Black Music Association was a group of black folks that were the best of the best of the music industry. I'm talking record execs. I'm talking radio people. I'm talking artists. I'm talking to everybody from Clarence, Avon, and Frankie Crocker to Percy Sutton, everybody in the middle, right? So they all get invited to this big party on the White House. House lawn, June 7th, 1979, and before the performances started, President Carter said many things

addressing and reminding people of the importance of Black Music Month. And one of the things he said was, in quote, in many ways, the feelings of our own Black citizens throughout the history of our country has been accurately expressed in the music. And it presents a kind of history of our nation when you go back and see the evolution of Black music. Word. So we've spoken a lot about Black Music Month on Questlove Supreme. And this June, we are running a different episode from the QLS archives every single day in the name, spirit, and cause of Black Music Mom. Next up, we are honoring a legend who has transitioned, and so we continue to honor him, the amazing James M. Too-May. Suprema, Supraima, Role Call.

Suprima, Supraima, Sub-Supima role call. Supra, Supra, Suprara, Roca. Suprema, Sur, Suprima roll call. What's love in the house? Yeah. That's not surprising. Yeah. My sign is artichoke.

Yeah. With asparagus rising. Soapriam. Subrima, sub, subprima roll call. Supremma, sub, sub, supremac. My name is Fonte. Yeah. And I can't stop, won't stop.

Yeah. Laea, you are the key to my love lot. Supremea, sub, sub, sub, Supreme a roll call. I love Airto, yeah, and Diodato. Yeah. But this guy here, yeah. He played with Gato.

Rocault call. Suprema, sub, sub, subprima role call. Suprema, sub, sub, subprima role call. I'm unpaid bill. Yeah. You know who you are? Yeah. Don't let it hold you down.

Yeah. Reach for the stars. Roll call. Suprema, sub-supriam. Suprema roll call. Supremia, Supraima, Roca.

Don't be concerned. Yeah. Boss Bill's return. Uh-huh. Vacation was great. Yeah. Time off well earned. Brocah call.

Suprema. Supriam. Supraima roll call. I haven't been on a show for like a month. So, Surveil. Roll call. You.

Yeah. Me. Yeah. What we gonna do, baby? Roll call. Supremia. Suprema roll. Suprema roll.

My name is Willie. Yeah. Oh really? Yeah. My sign is artichoke. Yeah. With a green pee-wising. Rocah.

Supraima Roecom. Supraima, Supraima Roca. Supraima Roca. Supraima Roca. Wow. Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme.

Let's welcome back our boss, Boss Bill. You know I was calling shots from Europe. Okay. You were gone. So long. You also realized that we was, you know, taunting you while you was away. It was definitely while the cat's away.

You really think I cared? I was in Amsterdam. You think I was thinking about this show? How was Amsterdam, Bill? I don't remember. Good answer. That means it was good. Good answer.

Good answer. Yeah, welcome to another episode of Questlove Supreme. We got Team Supreme here. We got Boss Bill, unpaid bill. Yeah. Fon Ticolo and It's Laiaia. That's it. Yeah, we decided to commit on a name that's consistent.

And this is the second week of row that we're calling you, it's Laia. Our distinguished guests. Oh, I'm sorry. And we got sugars. Steve, don't take it personal. I'm sorry, man. I'm right here. You know we're best friends, man.

It's gotto. I mean, looking right at me. I know. That was well played, Steve. Our distinguished guest today, ladies and gentlemen, has achieved a lot in the world of jazz, in the world of pop music and soul music and R&B, and I guess inadvertently hip-hop as well.

You know, absolutely. He has had, his history is just a who's who of, of history. Maybe I went to Amsterdam. Sounds like it. Stay at a damn cream. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome The Incomparable James M. Too-May to question. Yes. Thank you very, very much.

Man. It's an honor to be here, man. Thank you so much. Thank you. We know you have stories in history. We are live in Electric Lady Studios right now. You're about to tell us you, you've been here a few times? Man, I think the first time I was in here was like 74.

Wow. I've been here like, I can't remember. You know, jazz, a lot of jazz records were done here in the 70s. I think the last time I was here was, was with Bilau. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

With my son, five. Yeah. It's something about this studio that makes artists forget who they were with. Oh, yeah. That's the same question. He was like, I was here.

Like my man just quoted. I come in here, I look up there, God told him, yeah, that was my, yeah, that's my man. So are you, you know what, not many people know that you are a Philadelphia. Wait, can I ask something? Yes, sir.

Does Philly know that you're a Philadelphia? Do you know what? That's a great question. Most people don't know that. Although I've always made that clear, brother, born and raised in South Philly. I left when I was 18 to go to college in Pasadena. But South Philly, man. Yeah, but are you even in the...

Nothing. I've never got any... On the Walk of Fame? Nothing. Got one? No, no, never. I will... That's fucking crazy.

I will probably... Wait, I will probably, I'm not playing devil's advocate. Because, you know, if you're, if you're on a border committee like that, I would hope to think that you would do your thorough research. But I don't, I mean, based on that you don't do that much press or a lot of press. Yeah, brother. And I'm pretty much a sponge for this type of information. I truly didn't know that until maybe, you know. you know, three, four, five minutes ago.

Wow. You know what's deep about that, bro? That's why I got into y'all when I heard that y'all was from Philly. The route. Really? Yes, sir. It makes sense now.

Yeah. So you born in South Philly, where? 1526, Walton Street, right across the street from Barrett Jr. High. I went to Overbrook High. Overbrook. Yes, sir. What year did you go to Overbrook?

Damn, you're getting deep. I graduated in 66. So I think was at 62. Because remember back then high school started in 10th grade. You know, you had junior high and then high. So, yeah. And I went to Overbrook because I went to school. I was a swimmer.

And Southern didn't have a swimming team. And my uncle lived in right around the corner from Overbrook. So I used this address and commuted every day. It's where you say Southern. because my era of Southern was like Joe Clark's lean on me Southern. Oh, right, right. Matter of fact, West Philly High School is the same way. Like, you know.

Back in those days. But was it cool to go to Southern if you wanted to? Well, you know, it wasn't that many bloods. Really? You know, it was a whole, you got to remember, South Philly wasn't what it was. I mean, back then, I think my family, when we moved there,

we were probably about the second family, black family that was in that area. What did your folks do? Well, let me get this great question. Okay. My biological father is Jimmy Heath. Great Jimmy Heath. Yes, sir.

And of the Heath brothers, my uncle was Percy, my other uncle's Tudy, Cumba. The father that raised me was a great pianist named James Hendate's Foreman. He played with Bird. He played with Dizzy. He played with Lester Young. And as a matter of fact, when he was Billy Holiday, paid for my parents' wedding

when my mother and my family. Yes, sir. Wow. Dynne Washington is my sister's godmother. My sister's past, but down in, yeah. Oh. Are we going to go there, brother? Give me a wrong history.

I'm 70 years old, but I've been in this thing, man. When I was 10 or 11, I'll just briefly say this. I remember sometimes be at the 10th. dinner, there's Dizzy Gillespie. Wow. There's Stallone a smoke. There's Coltrane. I'm not gonna say I knew how hip that was,

but I knew I was in some special shit. What was the dinner conversation like with those kind of people? I was nine, man. I just knew it was like, wow. You know, and as I got older, the deep part is that I ended up playing with some of these people. When did you appreciate it?

The intellect and the humor. One of the funniest people in the world. world was Miles Davis. And a lot of people don't, because, you know. You see him as just the serious guy at the time. Look, man. Funniest cat in the world. All jazz cats are funny.

I think Dave Chappelle, you cats were played on it. I think when he had that block party, and I saw him sit down and he started playing around midnight. I said, Lord. And he was talking about the humor of monk and timing. No, man, it was very special. Sunny violence, I played with all these cats. I'm sorry. I was going to add this while I'm old.

So I get, let me get, let me. Go ahead, take it out. Take it out. My father, Jimmy Heath and myself are the only father's son historically that ever played with Miles. Father played and the son played with Miles. And when you were with Miles, what were you playing? Percussion. You play percussion.

But I also played, you know, obviously I didn't write songs or scored, but I'm a keyboardist. Okay, gotcha. So can I ask, well, first of all, for the Heath Brothers question. Yes, sir. Because they mean a lot to us for another reason. Who was playing, who's playing, who's playing Calimba on? Stirling Cal?

That was Stanley Cow. Siena, yeah, Siena. Yeah, Siena Malo? Okay, so that even makes more sense. Yeah. Key boys. Do you care to elaborate for the people that don't listen to Naz? I don't care to.

I don't care to. Right. Welcome back. Welcome back, Bill. Okay, so basically, for hip-hop heads that care about the artist sampling, a well-loved Heath Brothers song called Smiling Billy was sampled by Nause. Q-Tip sampled it on Nas' one love. And the beat nuts also sampled it.

Of course, yes, the beatness as well. But Stanley Cow, yes, that's that one I didn't know. I didn't know that he was in the crew. And I didn't know. they were from Philly. But I was saying that when these luminaries are like coming to your house and just hang with you, no one, yeah, no one appreciates it when they're young. Right. I did. Well, I was saying, like, so you instantly knew and appreciated it? Like I said, I'd be lying to say that young. I just knew it was something special. I knew it was something special.

And sometimes the cats would stay with it. It's like if they were working for, Philly, like Sonny Stitt would live with us for that week. And I remember one day waking up, he was in the backyard practicing, playing out though. Barry Harris, a great jazz pianist, stayed with us. He's with Canterball back then when they'd come and play. I was going to clubs when I was 14 and 15. I couldn't buy no drink.

You know, Cass knew me, you know, said, you know, give, get a little punk of a Coke or something, you know, but I used to go there and hear Yousef, it peps and the show, but, oh, yeah, man. So what was the, okay, so describe the Philly cabaret music scene. Like, what was it, where could you go see, what was the typical lineup like in, and to see these shows? Well, you know, they were, especially in, well, back in them days, every city had a ton of jazz clubs. And that's where, you know, obviously, you know this, you know, as well as I do, that's where

you went. to hear the music. It wasn't until Miles came along that jazz started breaking on the concert. You go pay money and sit in Lincoln Center and place like that. But the clubs, man, that's where it was. And the crowds were so hip.

The bebop audience was as hip as the cat's on stage. Because you had to know. You know, you wasn't hip if you didn't have the new Coltrane. You know, I'm talking about I'm in junior high school, man. I couldn't wait when, you know, milestone and kind of blue came out. And I used to study every solo and I would hum them. That was my introduction to this music. So at your time when you were coming up, jazz was like the pop music of your time.

Probably the real hip-hop. Right. You dig? It was that. And I'm also growing up with Frankie Lyman, the teenagers. Why do fools fall in love? So it's the birth of black R&B and this whole youth was WDAS,

Georgie Woods, man with the goods. You know, every night I'm listening to that. Now, this is a funny story. And if I'm talking too much, y'all come down. No, no, no, no. Why don't you do this is what we want? So normally we talk over you. Please talk more than a minute.

So, dig. See, one thing you've got to remember back then, growing up in a jazz household was almost like, and listening to R&B was almost sacrilegious, you dig? It's like, you know, people who grow up in church and they go into funk and R&B, oh, wait a minute, you know. So I used to have to listen to my stuff real low, you know, at night. But I have the, day, we had transistor radio.

I have it under the pillow. And I used to hear all these cats, man, you know, Georgie Woods. And back then, you know, it wasn't this, like, if he dug a record, and Kenny Gamble told me this, he said, man, sometimes him and Huff would cut a record and run right up to the station and dropped on him and he played four times in a row

because that's how you broke records back then so you know so I'm growing up with jazz and the birth of R&B slight confession time yes sir and it's kind of weird I'm your story in reverse

so for all the Prince for Gloradoor stories I've ever told about being on punishment from Prince and yeah parents yeah being all that actually Prince wasn't first I mean Prince was prevalent but the very first time that my parents pulled an intervention

on a mere listening to secular salacious pop music was I had flim flammed and you know I asked my mom like yo buy me the juicy food 45 oh man oh god you know I was like I was in California and asked my mom

Give me juicy food 45. She was like, no. That's a lollipop everywhere. No. And then I tried to do it on dad, like dad. And then they did that, wait, didn't you already ask your mother? And what you're going to come and ask me? So before they issued the, your unpunishment joint, then I kind of snuck.

I had an older cousin that was sort of like an aunt. And we were just in together in the mall. You know, she brought me like 248. She brought me New York, New York by Grand Master Plac and Furious Five. And then just in passing, like I described the Juicy Food 45 and brought it and thought I was cool. Then I got caught with it. My punishment was jazz. Oh, wow.

Like, this is where, I don't know, my dad's version of exercising it out of me. But this is where she made, like, I could listen to nothing but cold train for like a week. What a punishment. You know, and I was mad. It really wasn't until I, like, went to high school and got it. Right, right. So all the knowledge that I had to impress Chris McBride and all those cats, it was based on all the jazz punishments.

Thanks to M2, Maine. Oh, good. And I'm a jazz artist. Right, exactly. So it's like in reverse. But, I mean, were you're, I know that the, the, the, from the Motown angle, I know, like, a lot of the funk brothers kind of look down, right, jazz cats that look down on pop music. and all right, let's just make this check real quick

and, you know, get out the way, but this is really not an art. Right, that's what I think. That was real. But, I mean, where you're, like, to sneak to listen to it, was it just like they just thought it wasn't an art form or it was just like... Well...

Like, how do they view James Brown? How did they... Oh, well, look, James was God everywhere. I mean, even in a jazz setting, it was something about James, the funk. He was underdye. That wasn't about the music. That was about, you know, your DNA.

But I wanted, you brought up juicy fruit. Can I give you a quick story? Everything got a story. Tell me. Juicy Fruit, when I brought it to the record company, Epic, they didn't want to release it. I had to argue, well, you know, you can lick me everywhere. Now, that's, now that's like pain.

That's stuff I hear now, you know. But they didn't want to release it. They were afraid of the lyric, that one line, which ironically became the line everybody waited to sing along with. But they did not release it for daytime radio. They only released it for the midnight shows. After one week, they were getting so many calls. And this is one thing that I wanted to say.

When I wrote that, the beat wasn't the main thing to me. It was what I was trying to do with the chords and the colors and the melody and the inversions so I'm tripping on oh yeah I think we stumbled on something and I the only thing I felt about that

and that was the last song I cut on that record I was finished with the album and I walked in and we finished that night and there was a the drum machine there the lindrum and I told the engine I said that up

So I went, doom, tiki, dung, kukkukkak. I said, wow, I like that. And he said, yeah, let's quantize it. I said, no. I said, I want to humanize technology. Not technology makes it, because when something's exact, that's drag to me. And especially as a drummer, I want it to lean a little bit.

So if you listen to that beat, it's slightly off on purpose. Because it feels human. but they didn't want to release it but they were forced to release it I can't recall this someone told me a story someone very prominent is on juicy fruit and they told me the story like

how many musicians were on juicy fruit someone I know the rhythm section oh wait a minute well the rhythm section obviously was myself Philip Phil Raymond Jackson Philip Phil keyboard I'm keyboards Raymond's bass, and it's a drum machine, so ain't no drummer. And of course, Tawatha's lead.

On that record, on Juicy Fruit, Freddie Jackson, he's part of the, you know, juicy, yeah, Freddie. What? Tawatha brought Freddie to sing, I think he's on two songs, the first time I met him. He's on juicy fruit. And that might be the story. I'm thinking that by you. All women, and when I did overdubs, okay, you're making me. go back of the system.

David Frank? David Frank? Maybe he's David Frank. I had him double the guitar. Wait, Bernie World? No, no, he's not, Bernie's on the Juicy Food album, not, not the song. Oh, yeah, yeah, Bernie. Me and Bernie, you know, went way back.

Bernie's on a Stephanie, I first got me, Bernie first hooked up, you know, everybody with all P-Funk, you know. And I used Bernie on a Stephanie Mills album. And we were, so we were very tight. But, yeah, David, do-do-do-do-do-do-do. It's a guitar playing it, and I wanted him to double it with a synth sound. Okay. And Mick is playing on the bridge.

Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-dun-dun-dun. That's that's Mick on the song. Really? Yes, sir. Oh, man. It's like the All-Star. The All-Star 80s line. So, okay, so with the system, that was a group. Yeah.

So with your jazz lineage, Yes, sir. And you making your entry on professional records. Can you describe what the atmosphere was like, especially to make your entry on the corner, which... Why y'all hitting below the belt? Oh, my God. No, but see, okay, let me explain.

We'll go there. See, critically speaking, on the corner is one of those records that at the time when released by Miles Davis it caused a major, similar to the Civil War that hip hop

had, no, I mean, hip hop heads have had civil wars over particular albums by their favorites in which, you know, traditionalists are like, no, you got to stick with the tradition. That was a Star Wars, brother. You know, but what happened is

that time goes on, the time goes on, and, you know, for all those critics that said, this is the, whatever, the worst piece of shit that Miles ever released, Down Beach review of it was horrible.

Then suddenly, in 30, 40 years, another generation of critics come along and they proclaim this the best thing ever. So I want you to, for me, what was your family's

feelings of what my Miles was getting into and bringing you into. And jazz heads around your way. They're like, oh, that's not real jazz. Like, what was the feeling? What was going on? Well, first of all, let me give you quickly, just a quick backdrop how I joined Miles.

I came to New York and I was living in New York. Imam al-Baraca asked me to come back and help on the Ken Gibson, That was the first black mayor of Newark in 1971. While I was here, I was here for two weeks, and I got a call from McCoy Tynor asking me to record. That was my first, I did about six albums with McCoy. But then I was with Freddie Hubbard.

And Miles came to hear me, we were playing the Village Vanguard. And... You were playing percussion with... Yeah, with Freddie, yeah. I mean, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was trying to know what instrument I didn't know, because you were playing. You play keys too right now. But because that's where I cut my bones in the jazz world.

Gotcha, all that, man. But I'm probably on about 60 albums. But I came at the right moment, Farrell Sanders and all these cats we were working. So when I joined Miles, he calls me for the first session. It's on the corner. Now, I had already done an album, two. One called Kawa Ida, which was my uncle's album,

But I wrote all the, he asked me to write all the music. And I did my own record called Al-Cabel line, Land of the Blacks. All avant-garde acoustic music. I walk in with Miles. I was infatuated. The world hated it. You're right. They said it was the worst piece of shit.

And one of the reasons was Miles was so far ahead. Here's a cat playing wah-wah on the trumpet. I'm talking about 1972, man. And everywhere we played, there was two vibes. The audience, which was like, I never heard nothing like this. And jazz critics who I had a debate on, it's on YouTube with one of the jazz critics. Stanley Crouch. I didn't want to say it was Stanley.

Go in. Yeah. Stanley knock you out, Crows. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you get knocked out, you know. Yes, indeed. But they had never been challenged. And I was coming from, that band had been through so much.

And we all had this. Because if you didn't have that with Miles, every night you're going somewhere where you don't know. Now, sometimes you're going for another plan that you might miss. But when you hit, you might be playing two hours, man. But in that two hours, there's like maybe 15 minutes that you, you're on another planet, man, literally. This was like, and I know I'm getting like misty with this.

Ah, go in. We there with you? This cat, man, is the greatest that we ever produce. And when he died, man, I cried like a baby, man. And I still miss him. I miss him more today for the wisdom that he dropped on me. I remember when I was with, the first tour I was with him in 71 was in Europe. Keith Jared on piano,

keyboards I mean, Gary Barts on alto Indoor chancel on drums Michael Henderson Yes sir And I did a solo I used to close the show and man You know when you play and you rocked it

I'm standing old and I'm walking off I'm pissing vinegar, yeah And this voice walks up That wasn't shit My whole balloon And Miles said, man, look, man, stop playing what you know. Start playing what you don't know. Now, first of all, how do I even navigate that?

What do you mean? Then I figured it out. Stop using that same street to go where you're going. Use another avenue. There's different ways to go to that same destination. And cliches are deaf traps. Musicians know, you know that, like a singer, let me hit this high note and rock, you know, and they go, oh, no.

Don't do that. So I had to learn to approach everything backwards. Don't do what you did. He also told me things like silence is sound. He said, space is everything. He said, we had many talks because it was a father-son thing too. He said, if you got 10 possible notes for a melody, he said, you have to learn how to abbreviate.

He said, take the one note that implies the other nine. Now, all this stuff I apply years later. You know, implies the other nine. You don't have to use that. He said, abbreviation is the secret to the music. He said, people talk in paragraphs. They play in paragraphs.

He said, no, learn how to play in quotations. You know, you jig? Yeah, one thing I was always curious, because you're the first person I've ever met that actually played with Miles. Yes, sir. What was it about him that he seemed to me he was the greatest because it seemed like he made band leaders.

Like everyone that came out of his crew went on to do their own thing and start their own crew and become legends in their own right. What was it about him that you think that was able to shape people in that way? He was at cat. Sometimes there's no verbal explanation.

Some people are this, that's that dude all over the world. I was going to ask, does he, did he communicate a lot? Because the way that when I watch those old Montro Jazz Festival videos and stuff, the way that he's sort of walking amongst you guys,

I feel like there's a communication going on that isn't words. And see, that's a great point. Now, the other thing that he did, if you see any of those clips on YouTube and thank God for YouTube, because the new generation would never had a chance to see

with the bullshit the critics were writing. YouTube really brought that music to the forefront for younger people. He took me, usually, you know, percussionist, the hand drummers in the back, maybe next to the drummer. If you notice all in the videos,

I'm standing next to him. And our communication was nonverbal. I could finish the phrase, I knew where he would go. And I remember one time we played somewhere in one of the reviews that Miles was playing some jungle, voodoo music. When I was into, yeah, he's right for the wrong reason. This is voodoo. But Miles just

always new. Like sometimes you get into that music and you get lost. I remember one time we played we were in Colorado and we had a set. The club was in the basement of the hotel. We played a three-hour set. And this is the honest-to-God truth. I experienced this. I felt levitation on the stage. The thing became so organic. All we did was look at each other, everybody. And when we finished, we got on the elevator. Nobody said a word.

Miles laid down on the floor. We all got off on different floors. Nobody said, good night. That's the kind of stuff, man. How would you? I don't know if this makes sense. No, it makes sense. It makes sense.

And make total special to me. He was a, he's notoriously known as the greatest talent scout. Oh, yeah. In jazz history, you know, like he could see. He knew. Yeah. He knew what he, he knew the other dudes. He gave you a, and then it's a deep thing.

He gave you the canvas. But he let you paint. Was that the first and the last time you had that feeling? That levitation. It's only time. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me. Clever Taylor the fourth. might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest.

The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make

to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, Follow Timbo Slice of Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends.

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So do you, the musicians that are still alive within that collective, when y'all see each other, or is it still that connection because y'all had that moment that probably nobody ever had? Okay, confession. On behalf of the group, Reggie Lucas, who was my partner, Michael Henderson,

the baddest motherfucker that most people never understood Pete Cozy on guitar. Al Foster, monster drummer. I said Michael, Dave Leibman. We had a couple of sacks, Dave was great. But before Dave, it was a cat named Carlos Garnett. He's on the live at the Philharmonic.

Miles never told any of us what to play. But he also, I remember when I ran into herbie, and Herbie was telling me, yeah, he said, Miles never said, and he said, Tooms, let me ask you a question. How often did you y'all rehearse? And I said, that's what I was going to ask. No, baby. I can count a few.

And I was a stickler. You know, I was that young cat. Man, we need to rehearse more. I remember, I stepped to him. He gave me that look. He said, motherfucker, I pay you to rehearsal on stage every night. Dress rehearsal. Wait, so from a civilian, because I'm a non-musician standpoint,

I'm really got to understand. So you get on stage, he starts playing. Then what? No, no, no. We had what I call thematic fibers. There were themes, and we knew, like, black satin. D-de-de-de-d-d-deeep,

he would just start these fibers and we just go. Okay? And what he meant by, I pay you to rehearse every night, he said, I never want to overcook the meal. And you start getting... You don't want to get it too perfect.

Yeah, man, and you start working out... Again, you start working out little things that you know work. No, no, I don't want that. You didn't want that. That's why I never rehearsed, Steve. There's no comeback for that. Just enjoy that little gym I gave me.

But, okay, so the sessions that wound up being the On the Corner album, which kind of bled into three or four albums. Yeah. Certainly, or surely there were A or B moments you guys would remember and repeat those phrases or... Oh, yeah. Like, how would you know to start a song and end the song and that sort of... He would play a phrase. After a while, like I said, when something becomes so organic,

it's just a collective orgasm. He would play something, and we knew where it was supposed to go. And it was time to end it. He would step in and play something to lead into the next thematic fiber. We knew the themes. Where that thing went, that was the journey. Wow. I also find it

not ironic but almost full circle that the core of the musicians that made on the corner you know making the most envelope pushing radical jazz music ever turned around and wound up

writing the most lush pop music the most digestible easy listening pop. Like was it almost It's therapeutic that the pendulum would have to come on the other side of things. I never thought of it that way. Was it therapeutic? But all of you, including Lenny White, Herbie Hancock, right?

All Miles' greatest disciples. But you know, that was also that period. Don't forget George Duke. Don't forget Stanley Clark. We were all playing jazz. It was a generational shift. Now, the one thing I always tell people, if you change because you're trying to, you're trying to just be with the times, that's adaptation.

If you change because emotionally you're committed to the change, that's metamorphosis. So it was all metamorphosis for us, but maybe it was a little therapeutic. We couldn't go no further out. I guess you had to come in. You had to bring it back in, yeah. But I remember for me, it started with the close I get to you, you know, and I was going that way. And then I

My bridge was Eddie Henderson A great jazz trumpeter Oh we know And actually people think about I always laugh I say man Juicy Fruit is one of the grandparents of hip hop

You know what man But Eddie Henderson My first sample was actually JZ Inside You Inside You Which was on a reasonable doubt Coming of age Do do

Do do me Eddie Hennison was my, I would do He always The way I want He's the way I want He's seen my money talking I'm the hottest nigger in New York And I see it

Eddie Henderson was my I would do albums with him He always asked me for two songs And that's why I developed What I called One thing I tell songwriters The first thing you need to

Make sure you tap into Is what is your rhythm Some people write great ballets Some people write uptempo find your tempo first because when you find your tempo you don't have to write the other shit you know what you're good at

that eliminates experimenting and I knew oh man you're crazy that's cold that's cool that's beautiful yeah but it's for that particular project

who was the who were the musicians that were which project Or for the Eddie Henderson stuff. Okay. Inside you, that's me and Patrice Russian playing keyboards. I think she's, I'm playing the... She's playing Rhodes?

Yes, she's playing Rhodes. Of course. I'm playing the acoustic. Oh, my God. Herbie Hancock's bass player, that's Jackson is last... Paul Jackson? Paul Jackson. It was Herbie's drummer.

I forgot his name. Damn, I should know this, right? Yeah. Of all people. Mike Clark? Was that the drummer? He's on the... The headhunters?

The headhunters, yeah. Yeah. And I think that was it. Because it was just two keyboards, and we just overdub, you know, the strings and the horns. It's Eddie. I forgot who's on trombone.

Billy Higgins, too. Also drummed with you guys, right? Billy Higgins? No. I played with Billy with my father, but not. Well, I know that he played with No, no, no, no. I'm thinking

Eddie Henderson. I'm thinking of your art former project, sorry. Damn, art former, yeah. Yeah, we're just going to be. Sorry. So, how did you, I mean, was, what I'm trying to get to is, what I'm trying to get to

was that, was there, because the thing, the thing that coincides with you guys transitioning to pop music was that from a monetary standpoint, it was also very lucrative. And that's one of the myths I wanted to dispel because I know that a lot of the downbeat critics were saying that, oh, Miles playing with the Grateful Dead and do all this stuff, like he's just trying to make some money,

like forget the art. But if you listen to the music, there's really nothing that digestive about it. It's digestive about it. So, you know, was it a thing of like, okay, well, it's time for us to get paid. Did you produce the entire Blue Lights in the Basement album? No, no.

Was it just that one song? Like I said, it's the story behind every one of the song. Yeah, that album. We're doing that album. Quite frankly, I was like, you know, we had a dinner break. I had been working on these changes. Dene, blee-be-de-be-booby, blee, be. So we take this break.

And so Reggie's there. I said, Reggie's lay. So I play it for him. And then we put the B section. He puts the B section over and over. I'm recording it. When the cats come back, I just want to make a cassette. I had no name for the song or nothing.

We played it. I'm making a cassette. Roberto walks in and said, what's that? I said, the close I get to you. That was just off the dome. Wow. Okay? Nothing.

This is straight up truth. And I'm like, and she says, can I record that? I'm like, yes. She said, can I change the key? Yes, any key you want. We cut it that night. Originally, she did it. And then after thinking about it, her and Donnie hadn't done anything in years.

Donnie comes in and it's like, wow. But I want to get to that point. You're talking about the bread. Like I said, if you do something because you just want to adapt for that, that's not real. That's not from here. I was avant-garde acoustic because it was from here. It was metamorphosis. That's where I wanted to go.

And it was not looked positively from the jazz cats. I had one cat walk up to me. I'm not going to mention his name. Famous bass player. Go. Ron? No. No.

And said, man, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. You're playing this music, you know. And, you know, man, I said, but you know, one thing, like I said, one thing that you learn with Miles is courage. Because if you didn't have courage in that band, you'd have been snuffed under with the stuff they were writing about us. And another lesson I learned from Miles, when you cross a bridge, burn it.

So you can't even go back. Damn. You're chopping all the gym. It's like one liner after one liner. Like I'm interviewing you, but then I got to absorb what you're saying. You're right. Burn this.

It's on some biking shit. Like burn the ships. Burn the ships. Because look, you can always look back. If you don't even allow yourself to have a rearview mirror, you only can look forward.

I go forward. Wow. I got to think about that. I got to think about that. While you think about that, can we talk about the songwriting process as it changes from being a jazz musician to a pop musician?

Because I feel like to me, I was raised on jazz too, and there's a complexity to it harmonically or otherwise. And then you go into pop and people assume that it's less. So what's the transition? What's the metamorphosis there? Jazz, how I approached it,

learning how to master complexity. What's the secret to pop music? Mastering simplicity. You put it together, it's simplicity. That's what I'm going That's the way Okay Right

I appreciate it Thank you I appreciate it Now you're just making it up words Simplexity That's what Weston did right All words All words

All right so I'm really glad you're here Spell check didn't like that one Go ahead I'm glad you hear Because the thing is Because the thing is Is that I still believe that simplicity

Is the hardest thing to do How do you? How do you We talk about that all the time. But who taught you that, because even now, like, okay, so the cats that I deal with and work with now, who are pure jazz cats, I can't beat them over the head enough and tell them like, yo, that's too much. Too good. Like, tone it down a little bit. And, you know, part of it is their pride, if you will, of like, you know, I don't want to appear to be too simple or too pop.

Right. And it's like, yeah, okay, we now live in the age of the gospel chops era. You got to show off your musicianship to let people know that you're serious. But like, who is there to teach you this is the basic fiber of... Nobody. That's a hard thing to do. Like, you just, you can't go from on the corner to the closer I get to you. Yeah, right.

Well, yes, you can. I did it. He did it. But you know what? Getting back, because I did not address what you said. And this is the honest truth, man. We never thought about money. Now, that sounds, oh yeah, that's some, yeah, right bullshit.

I believe you. No, no, you're trying to master an art form. And especially with Jazz Cats, we started, you started out. There wasn't a lot of respect for R&B. Now, remember now, I saw Tony Williams. I studied Elvin Jones. So all this stuff I hear now, man, look, are you kidding?

I heard that live. I actually sat right next to Tony Williams when he was with Miles. I was in the audience. And it was like, first time I went to hear Elvin Jones. All this stuff for me is regurgitation. And drummers especially did not respect the two and the four. they dismissed it that's the hardest thing in the world man

how do I keep that interesting to you for four or five minutes you can look you can always rely on like I said technique is sometimes just masturbation man I'm gonna show you all this and I'm into why again

Miles stop talking and playing in paragraphs yeah silence what's your quotation what am I taking from it? I like I wish if that was if there was one thing that people learned from me or whatever like you know and cats are always asking me I try to put that out there and like it's harder to resist today like you know I've been on a few gospel chop sites where they're like man fuck what Questlove said about you know

why you always hate an old time that sort of thing you know but yeah I wish that people could learn that lesson, that you can get even further by playing less than... I think that comes with age, though. Yes, I'm old. But that's your shit. I'm just saying, like, when you're young, you know, you're... Wisdom. Well, you're young, you're insecure, so you're doing all that shit because you're not really

securing what you have, but the older you get, you realize you got it, so you don't got to flun it. It makes sense. Yeah. How was your, um... How long were you with Miles from on the corner to what time? I think about four and a half years, something like that, yeah. And then from that point, was that when you went into...

Well, when I left Miles, well, Miles stopped. We were playing the gig. And this, actually, I didn't finish the statement. I said, one of the things that we, in the cast and the band, we always lament. Herbie had headhunters came out. There was like a tour, national tour set up with Miles and Herbie. We played two gigs. Miles got sick.

We played upstate New York. and we played St. Louis. Miles got sick, and that was the night that he stopped. As it turned out, it was going to be for five years. Me and Reggie broke, not broke, but Miles ain't playing. We went on and said, okay, let's really do this. Michael Henderson had established his solo career.

Would that throw you off a little bit? That he was such a velvety singer? Well, wait, he went to Stevie for a second, right? Michael Henderson was with Stevie. he was playing on all that Motown stuff when he was 14, man. He was with Stevie first, then he went to. Yeah. Okay, okay.

He was the heir apparent to James James James. Yes, he was. See, people don't know that. Michael Henderson is playing on some of the tracks that came out later on a... Oh, man, damn, I hate this. Olds-Hummers. No, no, no.

No, no. One of the greatest albums ever. Oh, this is crazy. On Stevie? No, no, no. What's going on? Michael played on some of the tracks that weren't released on the original album. Okay.

Came out years later. On the reissues. Yeah, man. Michael Henderson was that guy. Listen to, for those that are able to listen to, what's the Stevie Live? And there's a version of I Was Made the Lover in which I feel like that's Michael Henderson's greatest James James James James James. Michael, man.

Michael was amazing. There's a live version of I was made to lover. Top of the... Talk of the Town. Talk of the Town. Yeah, if you listen to Stevie Wonder, talk of the town live album, which came out in like 67,

there's a version of I was made to Lover that is like... It's, it's... To me, it's the best live display of Jamerson-esque. Yeah. One finger playing ever. So, but did you know

that he had that voice on him or? No, but no, no, no, that's bullshit. Yeah, I did. You know, I remember Michael came to my room. We were in Japan. And Santana

was there, and me and Santana was talking. And Michael came in, and yeah, Santana, shit. I wasn't going to say that. It's crazy, man. It's crazy. You know, no, Santana was Like, to this day, when Carlos and I see each other,

it's almost, we get teary. Santana loved Miles. And so the story, Michael said, man, you're in tunes. When you finish coming on up, I want to play something for you. So I go up to his room, and he pulls out his bass. Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, do, do. Ah, you all my stars.

He starts singing, yes you are. I said, God. We were in Japan when he wrote that. It was with Miles. Obviously, years later, it comes out with Norman Conners. And that's what launched Michael's career as a solo artist. Just as a Philadelphia and me not ever seen any clip of Norman Conner's whatsoever on YouTube or anything. What was Norman's stature as a drummer?

I mean, I know he was a drummer. drummer. I heard him solo once. I think there was a song called So In Love. There's like the middle side to you on that album. But where do he stand in the eyes of drummers? You can tell the truth. No, I know. But you know what? Sometimes silence is more truthful than this. There you go. Wait, I kind of skip something. Why did you never, why did you choose traditional percussion as opposed to a trap drum set to play? It's what touched me. I say this. The three elements for the creative process

is intuition, intellect, and technique. Intuition is first. You don't know why you love the trap. You don't know why you want to sing. You don't know why you want to paint. You don't know why you want to write poetry. It's intuitive. Intellect, once you get into this

and you start getting a better understanding, now you know why you're drawn to it. technique is where you sharpen your tools. Time served. How much time you put in it? I don't care what I'm hearing. If I can't play it for you. Yeah, it don't matter, yeah.

So intuition, intellect, and technique. Okay, my last sort of serious jazz question before we go into your second phase of your pop stuff. I always wanted to know. Okay, so since Miles was pushing the envelope and... What envelope? There was no envelope. It wasn't no envelope.

But, you know, when he stopped playing in 1975, there's always been this debate. And, you know, because you brought up Stanley Crouch. And I know that a lot of jazz snobs kind of scoffed at Stanley for endorsing Winton and the whole, let's go back to 1946 bebop sort of thing. What were your feelings on the same? like the you know like the

the David Murray's the the the the the the the end base the kind of the first generation tree post miles of pushing that envelope because I know that those cats felt like damn

like it was our turn to get the baton next and then Crouch comes in and you know they put Witten in a suit and then suddenly he puffies us back to yeah to

back to 1950 would be bop, like not taking it forward. And I know that, you know, all due respect, I understand that Winton is a traditionalist. And I do believe that there should be whatever, torchbearers for whatever people feel that are passionate about their era. Like, I'd be lying to you if I said that, you know, my era of 88 to 99 era hip-hop wasn't my, you know, what I'll champion the most. Right.

Right. But, I mean, what was your feeling as far as, the pushing the envelope era of jazz sort of got white or washed or whitewashed away into where winton took it in the 80s and here's i here's what i felt it's a great question was tracing paper you know you ever really you just put the tracing paper over something and you just what's new about it what was the same thing in jazz cold train everybody pushing that envelope. You just playing and I'm not just

dog in Winton, I'm just saying a whole generation, let's play like we in 1964, and this is hip. That's not hip to me. Because it's been done already. I don't care that you can play train solo on Giant Steps. Who the fuck are you?

That's trained. This is one of the heavily in the jazz world, like this is one of the most heavily debated arguments. And the thing is, is that I feel like I'm in the middle because because of my age, you remember the year that Michael Jackson won all those Grammys? Yeah, like 83, 84.

Well, subsequently, Winton was also pulling that feat. He won like five Grammys, two for classical, three for jazz. And there was a point where I think in 84, my dad was going to ease up on the whole, you got to rehearse five hours a day thing. Like, okay, he's getting older. He wants to play video games, talk to girls, hanging the ball. He was going to start laxing a little bit. and then went and got on stage and said,

look, Dad, I really just want to thank you for making me practice eight to ten hours every night. My dad heard that shit, and he doubled my verse. I would you do seven hours in that basement?

But the thing was is that, you know, to... Paid off, though. Yeah, I mean, but to a 13-year-old, not knowing better, it's, you know,

I mean, there wasn't a, jazz snob in my life until Rich came along when he was when I was like 23 he's like man fuck went and like he took it backwards and he wasn't pressing the envelope so I think but isn't it also important for people to know absolutely because without winning I wouldn't have known about King Oliver and Louis and but that's when jazz started coming out of colleges brother that was the beginning of I got to go I'm going to study jazz at the university and I'm not playing it in the club and living in it.

Hey man, why do we still listen to Konda Blue? Miles went to Juilliard in the 40s. And he said, I might have went a couple months. I'm hanging out on 52nd Street with Bird and Dizzy. When jazz started coming out of universities, that's when this shit was everybody could play the same. Study this solo, play every note in this. That's not creative to me.

So was Bradford looked at as kind of like the answer? No, he's different. Right. I mean, in that way, Buckshot LeFunk, like stuff. And I'm not against studying. I'm totally self-taught. I don't recommend that. Everybody can't do that.

Yeah, well, yeah, I was very fortunate. Because I could, I went from playing to writing, putting the band together, then scoring film and television, New York undercover. Yeah, we're going to get a, yeah. No, I'm sorry. Natalie's. Natalie's. But what are you bringing to it?

If you're not bringing, again, and I'm not castigating, the cats that came out of colleges, but just because you come out of college, and then the colleges started hiring, my father's taught at Queens College, man, for 20 years. The same thing is happening in the hip-hop now. They started hiring all the jazz cats. Oh, wait a minute.

To teach. Wow. Shut up all of you. Yes. I teach you to college. I'm sorry. Wow. I'm sorry.

Wait, you teach with me. I wasn't saying it was a bad thing. I was the same. That's fascinating. I was a hard thing. So, Winton was the beginning of that. And I'm not dogging him,

but I'm just saying, stop saying that you're the torchbearer. I'm not interested in a torch. I've already burned that bridge. There you go. Wait, before you get into the pop, life lessons. I got to ask,

I'm just curious about. Are you about to skip the line? I'm not going to skip the line. back. Okay. I was going to go back real quick. Because James M. Tumay was not James, always James M. Too May. So I just wanted to know what happened in your life and to cause this change.

Because I know it's an activist side of you as well. There's a whole spiritual. No, I'm not, I'm an atheist, but go ahead. Okay, all right. Oh, okay. But always? Since I was 18. Since you was 18. So then the M2May part. Oh. Well, wait. Since you said that, how can you describe

in such? a vivid terms of of that music orgasm that you had with miles such a spiritual experience in a way and be an atheist I'm just curious as to

like none of that was spiritual to you or where atheists can't be spiritual that's what I was just thinking to myself too can you be spirit can't you be spiritual? I don't know if atheists can be spiritual isn't atheists no religion but spiritual this is a whole other separate thing I didn't realize that.

I thought atheists were just devoid of spirit. I don't know if you did to me. You tell us. How? Here's where I started. You know, I was a neophyte when I was 18. You know, man, religion. One day I woke up when I was older and I said, wait a minute, you can't dog religion

and you claim you an atheist. I said, they can't prove that God exists to me, but I can't prove that it doesn't. And I learned to just respect religion. Whatever you need to get through this thing, man. So I don't use, it's not, I respect the word spiritual and all that. I'm just saying, but I need to be intellectually honest. Amen. Stuff coming out of my mouth, you might think I'm religious, but I'm saying, no, no, it's not.

So I don't know what you would call it. I just know what I know. And I know what I, the feelings, whatever that is. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't

always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and your podcast. at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast,

it's all about the NFL draft, and we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galko, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects.

From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make, to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield and in this new season of the Girlfriends

Oh my God, this is the same man A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist I felt like I got hit by a truck I thought how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care so they take matters into their own hands I said oh hell no

I vowed I will be his last target He's gonna get what he deserves Listen to the Girlfriends Trust me babe On the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I have a question before we leave the jazz world. Gato. Oh, man, my man.

Yeah, I mean, we've been talking a lot about Miles, and I've recently sort of realized what Gato brought. And can you just speak a little bit about that? Yes, I can. I don't think a lot of people know about him. All right, so I'm sitting at the crib, and Herb Alpert called me. And Herb said, Tunes, I want you to come and make this session with Gatto. I'd heard of Gatto.

I'd heard some of his stuff. But I kind of equated and it came out. He was coming out of Farrell Sanders. And I had already played with Farrell. But I remember that when I went to the session, when I walked in, these were the R&B cats. It was pretty, pretty pretty. I think Eric Gale and Cornell Dupree. and I walked in

because at that time Ralph McDonnell was the percussion you know in all the sessions I'm like I'm coming out of jazz so I walked in and it was like who's this you know and I got like a little cold

I didn't mind I'm setting up so when I walk in everybody's like well who's this cat and then Herb walks out from the control move tombs and we hugged and then you know obviously everything loosened up and it was a session for Gatto

Right after the session, Gatto, his wife, she was more like the business man. She came to me, she said, Gatto wanted to know, would you be, if you have some time, would you make, you know, this tour? And I said, sure. And so I ended up doing about two or three albums with Gatto and toured with him. And we were really cool, really cool. That was Herb Alfred, though. Yeah, but that was a later album maybe than these other ones like these Flying Dutchman, Bob Thiel.

So, like, you know, I mean, I know that that was like a Tommy La Puma thing you're talking about. The one of the first director that I played, the Herb is producing it. Now, you talk about Flying Dutchman. Yeah. I got, please allow me, I got to say it right, like I said, while it's right here. I actually recorded with Duke Ellen. Wow. Damn.

Or Flying Dutchman. There's a Flying Dutchman. I met Duke, 1971. On that first tour, I was talking about with Miles. It was Miles Davis. It was George Ween tour for Europe. Miles Davis, Rassan, Roland Kirk,

Joe Henderson and Freddie Hubbard, and B.B. King. In the same... God, the same tour. Jesus. I remember one night... Oh, yeah, okay, God, is y'all taking me...

This is deep. Take us back, man. Let it take you where I go to... I get to the concert early. One night. So I'm sitting in the room, you know, big dresser. room, the door

flies open. I look, it's Duke Ellington. I'm like, oh my God. And, you know, I didn't know what to say other than Mr. Ellington, you know, and he said, yeah, son, I like, you know,

I like what you're doing. You know, I heard you one the other night. And I remember I was so awestruck. I just said, man, Mr. Ellington, tell me what types of music is, you know, the best. He said, he said, good. He says, there's only two types of music, good and bad. Not genre. Now, here's a funny story. One night, I missed the bus going back to the hotel. So, I catch a ride

with the Duke Ellington band, because their bus left, you know, later. So I caught, so I'm sitting on this bus, all these cats, man, you know, Harry Carney, Paul Gonzalez. And, uh, and, uh, I think we were a couple months into the tour, and I was fried. And them one nighters, man. So I was sitting next to Paul Gonzalez. And he said, yeah, son, you know, I said, you look a little tired. I said, man, I'm worn out. He said, man, how long, you know.

I said, man, we've been out of here almost two months. He said, man. He said, yo, look this little punk motherfucker. He said, we work 340 days a year. for the last 40 years. God. I got a ride back to the hotel with that. And they just fell out laughing like, too much.

That ain't shit, yeah. Now, while I'm thinking, I've got to tell you this. I'm over Miles' house. Kev, remember I was telling you this story coming over. That's my nephew, Kev. I'm over Miles' house one night, man. I mean, one day, the mail comes. I'm in, in one, see, Miles,

one thing, Miles was a great cook. So sometimes he just called, man, come on over. I'm going to fix, you know, I mean, hell of a cook. So I'm there. He gets the mail. I'm not looking at him. I'm a little over the side of the room. And he says, oh, shit.

And I thought something happened. So I said, what, what's up, bro? He just hands me the mail. It was a Christmas card from Duke Ellington. Wow. But it was in the spring. Miles said, is this the hippest shit you ever seen? He said, no, no, no, here's what it is.

He said, Duke is dying. Duke sent all his cats Christmas cards when he was dying. Oh. Brother, I can't make this up, brother. I can't make that up. And that's one of the things about jazz cats. Just where that Christmas card? I'm splitting.

It quests, man. He's a quonser card. I'm out. Damn. He said Quanza car. Don't everybody know if I may say Quanta Carl. Don't get Fonte. That's Laiia.

That's Fonte. Oh, I didn't answer to him to make that. You know you did, and I wanted you. Thank you. I said, I'm old man. And if I keep running off. It's like having a mirror on the show without a mirror. Go ahead.

So I told you I was, I went out to California to go to school. Yeah, you were a swimmer, right? How did you get into that? My father. You know. One day he came and told me, you know, I'm into, I know I'm going to NBA, you know. He said, man, you ain't will never be tall. My whole, you know, okay.

So he got me, my brother and myself swimming. And I swam for Vespa Boat Club. Okay. Oh, yeah. In Philly. Yes. Is that the Pride Boys, the movie, the movie? I'm just, listen, I don't know.

That's BS. No. The movie BS? Yeah. That's recreation park swimming. I was AAU. Okay. Those are two different things.

Oh, you're saying that league was beat. No, no. And what I did not like, they had cats in the movie that couldn't even swim. It's like you watching a movie on basketball and the cats in the movie. Spike Lee moment. Go ahead. Remember Spike Lee said that? Oh, yeah.

So I go out. This is 66. This is like, you know, the world was changing. Young whites, young blacks, young, young, Latinos and this is a year I go out there the year after the Watts Revolt so that summer they're having the Watts Summer Festival and I go to the Watts Cafe and it was excuse me Stokely Carl Michael back then Ron Carranger Marlona Carranga and a couple of other you know just I'd never heard that language well my I did hear that

language when I was 14. My father took me and my brother to hear Malcolm X. Open up for Elijah Muhammad. Wow. 1962. I think I was 14. And I had never, I mean, I was, you know, we came home from church and he said, don't, you know, because my thing, after church, this is coming off. I'm going across the street and play ball. He said, no, keep your suit to him. And I was like, oh, man, we probably got to go to my aunts, you know, to have Sunday dinner, I was drunk.

And we're driving, and I looked over and said, tonight, honorable Elijah Muhammad, Minister Malcolm X. I saw both of them that night. That was the beginning of my, wow. I'm sorry, go back 66, right? I know. No, no, no.

It's all that part of that journey. Yeah, so I joined us organization, which was my honor correct and um you know we changed our names man you know that was like the first kind of wave going there was arabic names but we started talking about African names Swahili and he asked what what you felt your quality was that's what your name is based on so I said I think I'm supposed to bring something and he said and you feel like a message well I said not literally you know he said no him too may and that's what This is what it means, messenger.

Ah, okay. Which I interpret it through the music. Wow. Deep. Well, we're going through this. The deep is that right? I wish we were recording this somehow. So much knowledge.

Let me ask the question. Everybody's here to ask because like 40, well, 40 years later, you know, the story of Karinga has changed and people, you know, look at it differently. I mean, the story, we've argued in this room about the story of Kwanza And significant.

Come on, that's just all the way of a certain. I was always on your side. Okay. You want to hear or you were not. I want to hear. Shut up, Bill. I want to hear. All right.

I think the first Quanza, I think, was celebrated in 66. I wasn't there. It was just a few people. The organization began to kick in because it started to bring, we were all college students coming in. Okay. So my first Qwanza is the next year, 67. It's about maybe 30 of us up in somebody's apartment.

And everybody's like, you niggas are crazy. they're trying to replace Christmas Now look, let me make this clear. Kwanza had nothing to do with religion. Talk about it. It was a cultural holiday. Now, let me deal with what's happened to it. People who don't even know about Kwanza, they want to destroy it.

We didn't ask for Kwanza, we made it. And that's one of the differences between that and like Martin Luther King. Why you got to ask people? Jews don't ask them we have Rosh Hashanah. Chinese don't say, can I have a Chinese New Year? Do it. Self-determination. But they try to rewrite it now.

And then, you know, Karangha went to be president for that. Well, who the fuck created Christmas? Oh, I don't know. Who cares? It was the establishment of a black holiday that's open for anybody. You can be Jew, you can be a Catholic. It don't matter. And that's what people didn't know.

And then people started writing what they thought it was. That's the danger of thought. That's crazy. Man, this is the happiest, most redemptive moment on my ear's life right now. Right, she's so happy. It's like, right? Thank you. It's Laia.

Thanks. We just clap at Laia. Because we know. We do guise earlier boy, boy, Godi. When we have the drunken Christmas episode, Lai is going to remind all of us to shut up. Remember what you're doing too much. Because this is too may say. You can separate the message from the messages.

Okay, look, can we get to Epic Records? Yeah. Hold on. Hold on, hold on, your solo stuff, like theater to mind and, that's what we're talking about. Was that? That's what we're talking about. Oh, I don't know.

And Bill, I want you to remember this moment. Happy Kwantefante. How did we? How did we, wait, okay, I'm lying. Because you dropped Farrell Sanders' his name is twice. And I'm like, yo, if your own a creator

has a master play. But I'm not on that. Okay. That's when I first saw Pharaoh. Okay. But I played with Lonnie Liston. Okay. I went to see Pharaoh.

First time I saw him was at the Village Rangar. It was Pharaoh, Jabali, Billy Hart on drums, Lonnie Liston, Cecil McBee on bass. Was Leon Thomas singing with him? No,

that was my last. And Leon Thomas. I sat there, man. I'd never heard nothing like that in my life. And the creator has a master plan had just come out. Imam al-Buraka turned me on to it. And I found out they were playing

as a vanguard. I shot over there. I sat there all night. Mesmerized, man. I'd never heard nothing like that. And that was the beginning of that period of the jazz thing. Now, I was into McCoy.

From the first time I heard Train, McCoy Tynum. McCoy, yeah. So I played, like I said, on about six albums with McCoy, man. I don't want to keep repeating that. I'm sorry. These are McCoy albums like on Milestone, like in the early 70s. Man, it's all, it's on, you know, if you type it up, it's on YouTube.

I can't remember the label, man. Strata, you see? No, no, no, no. I was on Strata. McCoy's was milestone around that. I don't know if it was milestone. You might be right. It was definitely milestone.

The song for my lady album. Yeah, that album is a song for my lady. You're on that. Brother? I can't. If you say so, he is. I can't remember them. You are.

Discoxagia.com says he is. But now, let's get to you. Epic records. No more to ask questions. But you know we're going to go back to it. Yeah. So what brought you to, was it was larker and arnold there at the time or no who brought you to to sony or back then the

CBS okay well with reggie and i reddy lucas and i have with partners and uh and why'd y'all stay together why did you guys decide let's partner up and be a team success okay yeah i mean you know i don't mean monetarily i mean you we were nourishing you know the music we were very very much proud of the music we were doing. What was the division of labor between you two in terms of writing and music? Those who know don't say, those who say don't know. I don't do that because that gets into...

No, no, no, we meant like who did the music, who did the lyrics. Nope. Oh, really? I'm not going there. Is that so... No, but we're actually asking... First of all, I already said... I already said closer.

I said I was working on these quotes. So we shared... It depends on the song. Yeah, well, we were partners. Yeah, a partner. Okay, all right. So it's all like two hearts by Stephanie which is one of my favorite songs.

Well, actually, we co-wrote that with To Watha Aegee. Ah, okay. And you know what? Damn, it's interesting. Because me and Tawahah were just talking about this the other day. For those who don't know, Tuatha Aegee was our lead singer, you know, in the M2 band, both versions.

And I don't remember how it became a do-wey-a-a-do-a-old. We didn't write it as a duet. I don't even know. Shep Gordon probably. No, no, no, no. Both of those were his client. No, no, no, wait me. Okay, there's a story here.

Ah, Shep's story. So Shep is managing Stephanie. Me and Shep, me and Shep get cool. You're probably right. I think that's how I came about. Yes! Because Teddy was his client as well. So we're recording two hearts. Teddy comes in.

up at Sigma in New York that's what we recorded so I'm putting on do do do do do do because I always like little melodic hooks in our songs you know I put like juicy

do do do do just little things you know and so Teddy something about you know how to love me yeah and do do do do do do do and so Teddy He said, man, Tunes, you know, I love, I want to work with you, man. So, you know, we're just kicking it.

I get a call from Kenny Gamble and Shep. Shep said, man, look, can you invest come down? We want to have a meeting in Philly. You said, me and Leon Huff and Shep. So we, you know, we set a date. We rolled down. So Kenny says, look, man, I want you to do half of the next Teddy Pendergrass out. To be gambling her from one side A, M2 May Lucas side B.

I'm like, shit. And this is after, what period is this? What was the last Teddy album before? Before the crash? I guess I should ask you all that. The 81 was- Exactly before the crash. This is after, obviously-

What's the silver album cover? It's after, it's after two hearts, whatever he would get. So I'm like, Like, oh man, Teddy has the accident maybe about three weeks later. So it's just something that never, never happened. But really? Where was I going with that? Yeah, the next album was going to be.

And oh, I want to say something. Like Gamble and Huff was one of my inspirations. Kenny is one of my best friends in the music. I first met Kenny on the phone in 1968. I was heading up getting the entertainment together for the White Summer Festival. I'm calling all over. Everybody, you know, try to get somebody to donate some artists. I said, man, what's this cat in Philly, man?

I called Philly International. I'm in L.A. I said, can I speak to Kenny Gamble? I mean, I'm... It's cold. It's cold calling. And she said, well, who is this? I said, my name's in Tume.

I went for the White Summer Festival. I'm trying to get talent. She said, hold on. About 30 seconds later, Kenny picks up. I'm like, oh. It was that easy. We talked. He sent out the intruders, I think it was Hal Melvin, and somebody else, to L.A. to perform it, to watch Summer Festival for nothing.

He paid for them. Well, we paid for the transportation, but the services were free. So that's when he and I first thought. I wasn't even write music then. And you didn't even know him from Philadelphia. No, no, I didn't know it. He's from South Philly. No, I didn't know it.

So we having this meeting, and I'd never forget, look, Leon Huff is the most. So Kenny's saying, it was this beautiful. He said, this way, when we're working, you can lean on us and we can lean on you. Huff has not said nothing for like an hour and a half. Quiet, isn't it? And then he does this, Quest. He says, no. He said, no leaning.

and I went back to the studio and wrote that on the wall. That was one of the rules. No leaning. He said one thing in an hour and a half, but it was so... Impactful. Oh, God, now I'm back to break my own rule. Going back to jazz. No, because the thing is, like,

what's the chances of us to actually have someone that was, like, actively in... In... there for the Watts' rights, like to... I got there the year after. Oh, you came afterwards. Then we can skip that. Thank you.

All right, y'all. That wraps up part one of our interview with the great James and two May. Come back next week and we will talk to James about his work with Stephanie Mills and Phyllis Hyman, his thoughts on sampling, scoring the 90s, TV drama, New York undercover, and the late great Donnie Hathaway. Until then, check out Mixed Supremma for sampling of James' work with artists like Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, OJ's, Roberta Flack, Below, Mary J. Blige. plus some recent hits that have sampled his songs.

So stay tuned for next week's episode. Thanks for tuning in. This is Quest Love Supreme, only on Pandora. Quest Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw unfiltered conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only

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