The Questlove Show - Black Music Month QLS Classic: James Mtume Part 2

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

In part 2 of 2 of Questlove Supreme's 2017 interview with James Mtume, the late legend gets on a roll, talking about everything from his legal problems with Wrigley's Gum, to working with his idol Curtis Mayfield and the importance of passing down your story (and wisdom).See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Earn Your Leisure and listen now. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. What up, y'all? It's Laia from Team Supreme. Okay, so it's June, and you know it is Black Music Month. Now, this month and its cause was started by my godmother, Deanna Williams, the legendary Kenny Gamble, and the great.

and right. Back in 1979, after being invited to the White House along with the Black Music Association. Now, the Black Music Association was a group of black folks that were the best of the best of the music industry. I'm talking record execs. I'm talking radio people. I'm talking artists. I'm talking everybody from Clarence, Avon, and Frankie Crocker to Percy Sutton, everybody in the middle, right? So they all get invited to this big party on the White House lawn June 7th, 1979. And before the performances started, President Carter said many. things addressing and reminding people of the importance of Black Music Month. And one of the things he said was, in quote, in many ways, the feelings of our own Black citizens throughout the history

of our country has been accurately expressed in the music. And it presents a kind of history of our nation when you go back and see the evolution of Black Music. Word. So we've spoken a lot about Black Music Month on Questlove Supreme. And this June, we are running a different episode from the QLS archives every single day in the name, spirit, and cause of Black Music Mom. Next up, we are honoring a legend who has transitioned, and so we continue to honor him, the amazing James M. Tumet. So after, you won a Grammy for the closer I get to you, correct? I hope you did.

Yeah, yeah. I stumbled for a minute because, you know, I never cared about that. Really? I didn't care about that. I don't even know where that thing is, man. What? Wow. Far fine.

Can I catch it? A far. Start camera. Farr would tell you my son. So I had it somewhere. So I was somewhere out. And Fah said, one day he was practicing,

you know, trying to be Michael Jackson. He said, and he spun, and he overspunned, and the thing flung out his fingers and broke. Broke. Broke the grammar. So he was like, Like really, oh God, what I'm gonna say?

He tried to glue it. And when I got home, man, I said, I don't really care about that because I was so offended. That back then, why was I offended? Back then, they didn't give the Black Awards on television. It was doing the commercial. Still now. Well, the rapable, I mean, they...

Well, y'all hip-hop caught it. But R&B was like, we don't announce, we won best R&B record of the year. and it was doing the commercials. And they come back and say, well, earlier the night, we announced it. So I'm messing, man. I don't know.

But I never really care. I don't have gold records and platinum on my, hanging nowhere. Am I right, cat? They're in the basement in a box in my garage. What? Wow. Look, man.

What's hanging on the? Ballpaper? Yeah. Yeah. Some art. Not even. Art. Art.

Art. Yeah. Art. I was just curious now, as you said. I'm like, what kind of art you do Rondie and too many residents? anything that you like. I don't have no...

I'm not into... I'm not a collector. I don't want to, you know, sound that adventurous, but I see something I like it. Did you work on the... What's going to do with my loving album? With Stephanie Mills? What's you going to do with my...

Or was it the Sweetson Station now? All of them. Yes, to both of you. Yes. First four hours. So you guys did put your body in it and all that stuff. that's my shit. I'm sorry, I really said.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, do, da, do. Yeah, I really shed my notes. I'm just speaking as an off-the-cup fan. So what is it, what's it like working with an artist of Stephanie's stature where, like, almost, in my head, I think in that time period, I would put her. Okay, and as far as the challenge difficulty, uh, can be. I would put her in almost Patty in the same basket where it's like, you know the talent is there, you know the voice is there, and you know that a lot of their, a lot of their neurides based on the gymnastics.

Yeah. high note and the fanciness of it, but it's like when you're making pop records, you got to sing the song has to be right and discipline. So how do you discipline a singer like Stephanie Mills that's able to sing rings around you and just tell it, look, stick to the... Well, here's the entry, again, story behind everything. That wasn't Stephanie's first album. A lot of people don't know that. Okay. She had an album before that that was written and produced by two of my main inspirations, Bert Backrack and Hal David.

What? Wait, on 20th century. She was on another label, right? Yeah. Okay, look it up. So these cats were, I had three inspirations. First was Curtis Mayfield. Then it was Bert Back and David.

Then it was Holland Dogeon, Holland. Oh, man. And then later on, obviously, gambling huff and Tom Bell. but and Tom Bell kind of took backwreck and David and blackened it more

but he was on Moodyn too sorry but I don't know I don't know what it was on but so I'm like damn I gotta come behind cats that

you all that you know Dionne Warwick all that I was like oh my God the mistake that they made they produced her like she's Dion she's not Dion

she's something else so we have the first meeting with Stephanie I had just left Roberta we were finished I told her this is the last tour I didn't have nothing that

there wasn't no work but the whole band quit when I quit and I was like I ain't got no work for nobody and I get the call it said me and Reggie I said man

we had we partnered with famous music we did a publishing a 50-50 thing so they called and said man look have you ever produced anything

I said He said, yeah, but none of us been released. I ain't produced nothing, man, but a headache. So they sent us back then, you would get seed money to do demos. So they sent, I think, maybe 15 grand, do three songs. First three songs we cut, what are you going to do with my loving, put your body in it, and deeper inside your love. And I remember telling them, if you can't hear this,

and To Watha's singing all the reference meetings. Ah, she's singing the demos. Demos. Yeah. Do you still have those? Silence says a lot. No, no, no. No, I don't.

But see, let me tell you one of the things, everybody has little things that they do. One of the things that we did that was kind of different in recording back then, I recorded with the synth players being there. They were part of the rhythm section. To Watha sang on every take. I wanted the musicians to be playing with the feeling. So everything you ever heard coming out of Phyllisheim and all that is to Wath singing the leads.

You know, here comes the bridge. Everybody's in, but you're playing what greater voice to do it to. But it made it even warmer and the cats play, you know, with more. So when Stephanie Mills and subsequently Phil Simon are getting these demos. So you're saying that on the you know how to love me, Full of time and demo. She's ghosting, like she's studying, listening to how To Wadthoffers singing.

Every song we ever did. To Wathar's recording, maybe sometimes you got six takes. She's singing on every take, because I wanted that emotion there. And when you get it, and you send it to whoever, you know, that you get ready to do,

so they know how the song goes. But what better reference? Now, in your crew, first of all, how did you guys decide, in the Charday way of things, how did you guys decide the name of the group is going to be in Tumay? I didn't.

Like, why not Lucas? No, we didn't. Well, I went, when I went to Epic, we was going to name the band Mind Bender. Okay. I mean, because everybody was on Peefunk, you know, the costumes,

and it was a guy who had the promotions at Epic, named Paris Ely. And Paris said, no, man. He said, him Tumay. And I was like, are you crazy? People, you know, today, Mr. Muttma's here. I mean,

Mutmae. That was so weird. We're talking about 1978. And he said, no, this is what we'll do. He said, I know people don't know how to pronounce it. He said, we'll call it. He said, the one thing about that, he said, once you know that name, you'll never forget it. And he said, and we'll put the albums

out with it phonetically spelled out. I know how to say it, yeah. Dash T-O-O-M-A-Y. Yeah, so on your first album. I have a copy of the album, which is like M2M-2-M-Pronounce. Yeah, M-2-M-2-M-A. And I, you know, because I felt weird about it, because I didn't, it was like, man, that's not what the group was about.

Right. You know, the people in the group that feel some time. Well, I thought the cast would go, yo, man, but they were like, okay. Because they said it makes, it's something about it that does make sense. And it means messenger. So hello. Well, I mean, I can go to that deep. But that's how I didn't have nothing to do with that.

It's just like, okay, man. Okay, there's a question about your record. And I understand, I guess, and I got your first album, maybe when I started like my first round of digging, like in the late 80s. So when I discovered there were albums before The Juicy Fruit, why didn't you guys ever think of making, yes, a complete song? complete song.

Erica actually... I was going to say, Erica Badu called me. Yeah. And she said, that's one of my favorite. That was just a little... That's 30 seconds. Yeah, well, you know what? I'm also kind of humorous.

And if you notice, the first time, I think we got to play for the people. And then the next time we play it, that's when I, you know, I hated astrology, man. The asparagus. Oh, what are you? What are you? I said cosine, you know. And so we did that little take. That was just my personal hatred for us.

I realized it, but the groove was so monsters, man. I'm like, y'all don't even know. Like, next to Roy Air is that, that to me, he's like, that could be the beginning and the father of like some Neo-Soul. Like, that's our blueprint. Hi, I'm asparagus. The artichoke rising. I'm Dolores.

My sign is spinach. the groomed peak rising Well that was like We tried Erica tried to get us to do that I think we After What was after Mama's gun?

Worldwide Underground Worldwide Underground The one idea I worked on before Was we We tried to make that into a jam I mean it's still somewhere up there So maybe she'll bring it back Talked me about Lovelock

That's like one of my favorite song. Look, man. So... Where did that come from? We were working on the album. I had that thing. Ooh.

You know, the magic to that record is Thawatha. And we hit up. There's a groove that we get into, especially toward the end. And I'm playing, you know, acoustic. And I go into this Latin, dink, dink, tink, tink. And she just...

It was just magic, man. It was magic. I mean, I remember we cut that in one take. And, you know, sometimes that's how it goes. Some shit you cut, re-cut, cut, and you just don't work. But that just, and it really was a combination of R&B and jazz. It really was. But it's her singing.

And I think Florida Porum and Ayrto re-did it. But it's her performance, man. That makes sense. Theodoscent. Now, you know what I thought of it? Wow. Okay. When we did, I always thought of it like an airline commercial.

You know, fly, you know, T0A, whatever. Wow. I love that, so, man. Thank you for that. There's a member of your team that we haven't mentioned yet. And I gotta say, man, like, talk about working with, or Hubert Eves, the third. Yubit. And.

T-Trey. Yeah. Okay. Him being part of the team, like, what? Ubert and I had played together on the jazz circuit. You know, everybody in the band, okay, the first band incarnation, Basil Farrington on bass, Ubert Eves, myself, Reggie, Ed Trey Moore, other guitarist, Howard King, Howard King, yeah, Howard King.

Locksmith, and we all were jazz musicians. So Ubert, you know, And we played different gigs together. And so when we put the band together, we all was, the recording band unit came out of Roberta Flack. We all played with Roberta. And when we left, I said, well, man, when we started getting production gigs,

I said, this will be the rhythm section. Because you gotta have a sound. What's your signature? And we weren't like anybody else. You know, you had Nile and Bernard, that was happening at the same time. It was a few people, but we had our own unit. The singers, it was Tawatha,

Cindy, Mazzale? No, no, no, Cindy was, I mean, Cindy on a couple things, but the court, sisters, she's dead now, great singer out of Newark. Brenda White, Tawatha, Brenda White, and, wow, man, forgive me. Yeah, but we had our own unit. How did you discover Tewatha?

How did she come into the circle? First demo, me and Reggie Ava Cutt was this group called Hot Tea out of Howard University. It was to Watha and Angela Winbush. Oh my God. Really? You're just sitting on that information? Wow, so they were all apart of Howard Cruz. It was a group, a group of five, no, they were- They were a gospel group.

And it was five members, but I'm saying, you know, to Tuatha and Anjillo was in it. And we cut the demo. You know, we couldn't sell it, but out of that was to Watha, you know, and we've been together 41 years. As a matter of fact, I'm getting ready to cut an EP on her. You know, we're going to give it a shot. I'm not doing a lot of the writing because, you know,

you gotta know what time it is. You know? And it's, you know, we got some young writers and stuff. But I'll be dealing with the melodies. You know what I mean? Okay. I'm not going to try and throw a monkey wrench in. But here's the monkey wrench.

Here's the monkey wrench. No, because, okay, to hear, to hear you describe it as far as like, you know, move forward, don't burn the, I mean, burn the bridge and don't look in the rearview mirror and let the young people leave. the way. But I also feel like we need to know, to kind of know the way and not let the blind lead the blind. So, oh, I agree. I still, I don't think ideas just expire in people. So, I mean, I don't want, I personally don't want you to feel like, okay, well, I don't have ideas to contribute. No, I don't feel like that. But here's why I agree with you. In terms of what

What happens to black music? The professors were thrown out of the class. There was this, what I call a breakdown in the cultural continuity. With R&B and funk and hip hop was coming along, there was also a struggle in a generational struggle. Younger black men and older blacks. My generation was looking down, that ain't music. Young cats, you know, y'all coming through, man, you know, F that.

So I said, man, one day I woke up. I said, man, if you got all age and no youth, your glasses have full. All youth with no age, your glasses half empty. Right now we've got a half a glass of music. These conversations are what's needed. I learn from y'all, but I can give you what I know, but be open to learn from what y'all doing. There's not enough sharing of information in black music.

That's the problem. Young black kids grow up with the history of their music. I used to watch The Grateful Dead, be grandparents, parents, and kids. Yeah. Cultural continuity is a real thing. We had a real breakdown because of the social thing what happened. I always said my generation began to look at y'all through other eyes.

Like y'all wasn't ours. We weren't teaching. It was a breakdown. Speaking of that jazz. All that jazz. Let's talk about that jazz. Okay, so of course, to a lot of the, to the classic hip-hop

luminaries that are well-versed in the culture and that own stetsosonics in full gear. Many will know. I thought I was going to get out of here with that, but let's go that. Dude, until you said that, I totally forgot you were the subject of that song. You're Darth Vader.

So, no, no, no, no. I don't even know. I didn't know, so talking to all that jazz was about. No, that's about me. Me. You even hear the, you even hear the, you hear them like sample. Yeah. I'm going to knock you out.

Yeah. What? Here's what happened. Wow. I co-host a black talk show called Open line. Okay. Our voices. Yeah.

Open line. And so we were having a discussion. What time did it come on? 3.30 or more. No, no, no. No, no, no. This is before they ripped it up. It was a decent hour.

But we were having a discussion, not a debate, about what was the thing that knocked us out during the, a year in review of what happened during the year. And I said, man, I've only done this a few times in my life. I know you yawning. I've been up here about, what, five hours? Oh, no, man. Dude, this is our dream interview.

Wait, so. He's just touching his lips as a bad shadow. That was the worst. That was good. Excuse that. No, please give us all the stories. Go ahead. So we were talking about what knocked you out.

I said, well, I've only done this a couple times in my life where I'm driving and something came on the radio and I had to pull over. What it was was bring the noise. Wow. Now, I didn't know nothing about sampling. I'm thinking, these cats are playing in all these different keys. Oh. I hook up with Frank Shockley. I mean, with Hank Shockley.

And he explained to me about Sample, anyway, to make a long story short. In that same conversation, I said, the thing that knocked me out was public enemy. But I also delved into a subject that nobody wanted to touch on. I said, Sampling. At that time, Katz didn't know how to play,

for the most part. But that became a badge of honor. I said, wait a minute. If you want to be a lawyer, you got to know something about what? Law. Yeah. want to be a doctor, you got to know something about what, medicine?

Why you want to be in music? But you don't need to know nothing about music. And I said, I'm not against sampling as a pit stop. Don't live there. And I said, and if you're going to sample somebody's music, pay them. That's all I said. So, a lot of people got offended. And I got to say this. Daddy O heard that. He was listening to that day. He heard you on the race.

You let you get away with that. You criticize our methods. How we make record. You said it wasn't a So now we're going to rip you apart. And they took it that way. That's not, I was not saying, first of all, how could I say sampling is drag? As much as I, you know, shit, juicy? You kidding? But I said at that time, they weren't paying.

You know, like, so-and-so. The system wasn't set up. Yeah, man. So it didn't really start turning around until, uh, 91, 92. Me, myself and I came out, and they sampled stealing Dan. OPEG. OPEG. I know.

But during that time, they weren't paying James and all the people, man. When I did the juicy food deal with Puffy and I got to say this, I was doing New York undercover. Me and Andre Harell were meeting and Andre said, look,

Puffy wants to holl at you for a minute. So Puffy comes in, hey, Tunes. I said, Puff, what's up? He said, man, I want you to meet my artist. He said, Biggie small. Biggie comes in. Sweetheart, man. I said, boom.

He said, look, man, I want to sample juicy fruit. Man, I'll say this about Puff. We sat down a few minutes. We did a page and a half. It ain't no long conversation. You get a dollar, I get 50 cents. That's all it is. I said, but a lot of, that became a thing. And I, because I was the only cat talking about that, and that record came out, I became, and I was doing panels and stuff, oh, man, you hate hip-hop. I'm like, Chit-chee!

No, no. Does that answer your question? And me and Daddy O are fabulous friends now. Yeah. I can see you. Okay, go ahead. Okay, so, okay, so I want to know when Madonna enters the picture, why was Reggie the only person and producer, not you?

We broke up. Ah, damn. Bad timing. No, not really. I did the Juicy Food album. I ain't sorry. Here's what happened. There's a point.

when you're partnering, you're starting to have other thoughts. You've exhausted what that partnership was supposed to do. I mean, earlier I said, well, we kept things together? Well, success. Like the saying is success needs no explanation, fairer can never be explained. So, damn. You say that again? Success needs no explanation and failure can never be explained.

He's like out-coding Fonte. I know. You must have to help him. You need a coffee table book, sir. I would read it just like I'd read Fonte's. It would be fantastic. It's like I was starting to hear that I was done. I remember I always tell the story, man.

One day I sat down at the piano man to write. And I started, tears started coming out of my eyes. I didn't know what was happening. And then I realized, man, this sounds like all of the shit you was as you were done before. And I was like, oh my God. You felt exhausted? No, I felt writer's blockade. And I said, you got it.

What did I say, man? It was time for that bridge to be burned. I didn't hear strings and horns. I'm with the big arrangements, the lush. I was hearing what I called neominimalism. How to take this and make it sound like that. And that was a juicy fruit album. And that song, man, there's only four inches.

I'm about to say, yeah, it's not. It sounds like this. But I was hearing something different. Reggie was feeling something different. He hooked up with Madonna. I was doing juicy fruit. He did Madonna. So he didn't work on the third M2M8 record.

What was that one? Juicy Fruit. Oh, okay. No, no. So that was you alone? Yeah, I think what I did, I might have said one of the tunes we did, but it really wasn't.

No, that's all me. Oh, man. Okay. But that wasn't like, it was a, you know, some anger. No, it was like. Amicable. Yeah, yeah, man. Where is Reggie to this day?

You rarely hear of him on the scene or I don't know. Reggie's cool. We talked, matter of fact, we just talked the other day. I just decided, like you said, there's not a lot of, I don't even do these kind of, you know. I know. I know. I know. Fah and my daughter have convinced me, no, man, man.

You're 70, man. Come on, man. You split disinformation goals. Right. I just decided, I just agreed, just agreed, was it last week, we started shooting the unsung on my life. I heard that list is crazy too of contributors. It's kind of nuts, yeah, it's kind of nuts.

From everything from my father who's 90, you know, to, you know, young cats, you know, and sisters, you know, but I've been around a long time. I've been doing this 50 years, man. That's crazy. That's not even long enough for me. There's more to do. So, you know, I don't even know if you're aware of this, but I was going to say that a lot of hip-hop heads, of course, you know, a lot of people would think that juicy is your go-to record.

but what I was telling Fonte earlier upstairs was that... And I didn't know this was your record. It was... Oh, when... For some reason, Kit Capri... Oh, my God. Exactly, his go-to record. Oh.

Like, that's his go-to intro record, his freestyle record for rappers. Like, he's been spinning that forever, and I never knew. What song is that? It's called Bigger's theme. Yeah, Bigger's beat. I scored this...

Native Sonnet. It was a movie. It was the first movie I did. And I can't find it nowhere, but yet, like, Kid Capri must have at least like eight copies of the record. Yeah. Yeah, when the album, the, what do you call them? Not soundtrack. Scores.

Scores. Scores. Yeah, wasn't no, like, soundtracks became songs later, but that was this score. and a kid jumped on it. And I remember, I remember Grandmaster Flash called me, he said, man, the tomb, because I want to come by and holler at you.

So he came over to Jersey. I live in South Orange. And so Grand Master was telling me, man, he said, man, you know why we like your music? He said, it's holy. He said, I don't mean, like, religious holy. He said, you got a lot of holes. We can take snippets.

And I didn't really, you know, fully understand. I did understand, but not fully. And Miles introduced the idea to you for space. Amen, quotations. There you go. And where was I going, man? Oh, with biggest theme. Biggest theme.

And so that's what prepared me for New York undercover. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more,

to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO% on the I-Hart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

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I didn't mean to make the transition. That's a way it is. No, that's a great transition. That's perfect. So working in that medium of television and scoring, like how easy was that to episode for episode? I personally, it's easy to you? No, no, no.

I find it hard. It's the hardest thing there is. Yeah. So what was the pressure like of deadlines? First of all, okay, truth be told, I get to L.A. The pilot is done. you don't have to do original music for a pilot. I go out there maybe to put a couple things on.

It was me and I took a brother because I didn't know scoring for television. When I said, you know, I didn't know, I got to know. And this thing came up quick when Andre called me. So Dun Pearson was like my go-to guy. He was a music director with OJs. And so I said, so when we talk and I want to know what's the cue, what's, you know,

how to read the time, you know, because it's frames, how many frames per second. And I go out there, man, Dick Wolf said, man, we arrive on Friday. Dick Wolf says, man, I need a theme Monday. First of all, I don't even have any instruments. What are you doing? Welcome to you a lot.

But you know, no, no, no, no, no. This is a true story. I thought it was going to be Saturday. Man, I called my brother, and he called, the brother that programmed everything for us. He did the chronic album. Colin Wolf? No.

Oh, man. This is crazy. Program. Look on the credits for the team. Me, done, and this brother did the team. Because I knew I wanted, Originally, we were supposed to have a cat that was going to, Andre said he had a guy that we're going to do all the beats.

The night before we leave him to go to L.A., I go to his crib. Because when I called him, I said, man, you know, we're leaving tomorrow. He said, well, tunes, I'm not comfortable. Because I wasn't going to do beats, you know, like. Right, right. Because I knew one thing, I didn't want to do nothing. Oh, and this was a chance to really put a sound on television that had never been done.

So the night before we leave, he drives out. So my brother gets the brother, you got to look it up with his name. And we do that. It's the brother that did the chronic, programmed the chronic. And I take it. They look up for the theme in New York on the cover, writing credits. It's just showing your name as the writer. That's bullshit.

Well, I was telling you, it's just incorrect. It's Dun Pearson, myself, and it's some of the brother. But so they rejects it. They reject the team. I bring a theme Monday morning. First of all, they were shot. You know, man, look, I'm talking about, no, I gotta have this.

They rejected it. There was a woman named Roxanne Lapelle that worked at Universal. Gregory Royal. Bam. Boss Bill to the rest. So, yeah, because I did not want to, you know, I know,

never, I don't do that. She said, Dick Wolf rejected it. She said, send me over a dad. That's when we, you know, dad's... She said, I said, oh, man, because I'm like, this is the best I can do.

I'm not... Because it was fresh, nothing like that. You know, doodoo do, do, do you know, do, do, do you know. Man, who's playing the sax on it? That's the brother from Earthwind and Fire. Andrew Wolfram? No, no, no, no, no.

Not that Earthwind. The original. So, I'm like, I'm fried, man. So I send it over to her. This is a true story. She takes it to the head, the president of television at Universal. She calls me back.

She said, I just played it for the president. He said, this is exactly what we need for this urban show. And he said, also, tell him to me, thank you for juicy fruit. Like, you just come. Oh, shit. Yo. That is, no, dude, you don't understand. Wait a minute.

That was Thursday night. Like, that was, like, that song always put me in, like, the best mood. Because it was, like, I mean, Newark Conocoose is my favorite show, and it, like, starts off dark, but then it goes into that, that sax line. It's really beautiful. That's the jazz part. Yeah, and it just said, like, I just know, like, I heard that song, and I just know it's Thursday, and tomorrow's Friday, and this shit about over. Yeah. Thank you for that song.

The thing is, is that I thought you were going somewhere else with the story, as in, you know, we did an original theme that they didn't like it. Then we came up with this. I didn't realize that they heard this, rejected this. And then took it back. Here's what happened. We're talking true. There was some friction with Dick and Andre. Andre was originally a co-executive producer.

And there was some business fallout. I was kind of left out there hanging in the middle. of it. So Dick and I became very close. But initially he's looking at me as part of this And I'm like, no, I'm not. That's my man. He brought me in, but I'm serious about this.

And he kind of looked at me like, uh, and plus he had his man Mike Post. That does all his stuff. You got to remember um, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. Yeah, so he was kind of forced to have to deal with me, especially after the president of the studio said, no,

man, this is what we want. And I'm into no ego here, man, but Mike Post can't do what I think. No, he couldn't do that. No. Because to me, TV music was so staved and stale, and here's the chase scene. Dun, d-d-d-dun-dun-d-d-d.

I'm talking about, you know, soprano sax and stuff. You hadn't heard that. Plus, I'm doing Natalie's. I'm scoring this show, and then I'm reproducing songs for the club scene. Now, let's talk about Natalie.

Please. Yes, let's talk about it. Natalie's in the script. The original script was just the place where the cops, you know, Malik and Michael hung out. The original, if you watch the first season, Gladys Knight is Natalie's. Right, right.

She owns Natalie's. She was the father's, Michael's father's ex-girlfriend. I'm sitting there, man. I'm sitting there, man. You know what? It could be interesting. New York undercover of the first year is 1994. If you think about it, Arsenio Hall,

had been taken off. There was no place to hear or see a black R&B bands. I said, you know what we can do? I'll bring in young current artists and redo a classic. Bringing the classic artist to redo their hits. Ergo 112 after the love was gone. Mary, natural woman.

Jodicee. They do lately? Was that? No, that was MTV unplugged. What did Joddycy do? New York Undercover joint. You put out an album, y'all put out a... Well, I did, I did...

What's the brother? Jodacy? The lead. Casey, I later produced, if you think you're only named. Jason's lyric. But, so I'm doing, man... I'm saying, honestly, to answer your question. Brother, I was doing putting in 20 hours a day, man.

Because first of all, I had to figure out what's going to be my sound. All of the... equipment had changed. I'd been off the scene for a few years. So I had called all these cats. I'm going through thousands of sounds to find out what would it be my go-to sounds, how I'm going to put these beats, you know, because I had to figure all that on the fly. And then produce, I worked it out finally by the third season. I wrote, scored the whole show in two days, did the whole Natalie's in a day and a half. But it's like,

Wait, well, a day and a half? You just had all those artists line up one by one, knocked them out? No, no, no, per episode. Per episode. No, no, per episode. It was a sister named Laii LaFloor, and I would talk about, well, who can we get next? We reach out.

And once we get the artist, I would say, okay, this is the song we do, you know. And I go in, recut those songs. Those aren't records. those are, you know, remakes, you know. And you got websites dedicated to their top 20 Natalie's performance. Natalie's was... Don't tell Jordan what you want to do for love. Oh, man.

I forgot, Escape did all this love. Oh, that's right. Yeah. What? What? And Geraldivert. I remember that one. I've been so many places.

It's on for you. It's on for you. Yeah. Yeah. So can I assume that that's what made the, the, the, the relationship with Mary for I'm going down. Look, man. Did you do the New York undercover stuff first, or did you, because I know you produced I'm going down. You produced it on my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's the interesting thing. A lot of the young artists, after we worked together, because they had never worked with an old head.

You know, no, that's true. and Escape SWV the earlier they never a lot of them never really worked with a vocal

producer man you know and I found that out and so they would ask me they'd come and do New York on the cover and say yo man could you

do a cut on my album because Erica did stay on here and I was like was that before and after she put that on her album no she did New York that was on New York

I did redid that for her DeAngel on the get off the, uh, yeah, you did a girl you need to change your mind. Yeah, yeah. And, um, it's getting crazy. How, so how do you like doing vocals?

I hate doing vocals. I love it. That's, that's my ultimate. That's the tip. I will be calling you from now on. The tip of the iceberg is vocals. I always say this. Every hit is a nursery rhyme,

but you gotta learn how to make it your nursery rhyme. There's no hit that you can. you can't hum. There's no hit record that you heard that you can't hum the melody even if you don't know the words. Now she rhymes. Already knowing next year's retrospective episode that this is going to

be Bill's favorite episode. He's literally taking notes of... But think about that concept. There's no hit that you ever heard that you loved that you couldn't hum. You couldn't hum, yeah. What was your, what was it like producing

KC. Vocal? Because that was when he was like, Brian Bogley. Casey. Comes the first night we work. So sometimes you don't nail it. But what I always did, if we don't nail something on the first night, I make a copy of what you did and then give you right behind that a version with no vocal. So you could work out.

So KC, the first night, we didn't quite get it. I'm like, cool, man, no problem. came back about three nights later and we nailed it. The reason why I'm saying that was so special, I'll never forget, he asked me, he said, man, too, man, can I call my parents? He called his parents

and put the phone up to the speakers. He said, man, I'm doing Bobby Wormack song. And he nailed it, man. And I was just so proud of him, you know, he was a hard worker. Mary, hard worker. DeAngelo was off the hook. Notice he didn't say hard work

No no no no no no no I meant I know I know It's an ongoing joke It's an ongoing joke And I know the joke I know the joke I know the joke I know you do too

I was supposed to work on the album that you did We're still here That's my man That's my man We're still in And I've never forget to see I was doing Working with DeAngelo

And Spike called me. I mean, he called me to do the thing with DeAngelo for the get on the bus. Get on the bus, yeah. So we're in the studio and Spike calls me, he said, man, Tumes, I'm going to send something over. He said, I just got Curtis's song, a New World Order. We were in the studio, man. He rushes it over. Now, I told you, man, my main influence, my first influence was Curtis. So I put the CD in. And I hit us, man. And I said, oh, stop it.

I said, turn all the lights off. We sat there to listen, man. It wasn't a dry eye. And I realized this cat recorded it on his back. He was paralyzed. He was paralyzed. And I said, this cat got more soul. The reason why I'm saying this,

fast forward, during New York undercover, I called Curtis for an episode to do that, New World Order. I didn't redo it. We actually used the CD. We alone in the room, in the dressing room, before he takes a ship. And I'm getting a chance to tell Curtis. I mean, we knew each other over the years before that,

but I had an opportunity to tell him, you were my main inspiration, man, to want to write. And for some reason, there was a moment and was nobody in the room but me and him. I don't even know how that happened. And I said, and I didn't even have a right to ask him. I said, Curtis, you paralyzed. I said, what do you miss most?

And what right do I have that? You know, you think my guy says sex or I can't walk. You know, he told me, man. And I broke down in tears. He said, man, tunes, I can't play my guitar. Damn. Oh, shit. Yeah, I never thought of that.

Now, fast forward again. About a year after he dies, I'm sitting at the crib. I get a call from Warner Brothers. He said, somebody's here and wants to talk to you. I don't know who it was. Put him on. It was Curtis's publicist who was there that night. She said, M2May, we've been trying to find you for over a year.

Curtis, when he died, told me to make sure that we thank two people, you and Eric Clapton. I don't, I'm like, I don't know what, thank me. What are you talking about? He said, the last two weeks while Curtis was making transition to death, he had to play his performance to New York undercover over that helped him. make his transition. And now I dropped the phone because I'm the man that inspired me. You inspired him.

Help him. I can't even say I helped him. But she said two people we wanted to think. I mean, can you imagine that cycle? Yeah, it's getting, yeah, it's getting heavy at him. No, hey, that's what he's here for me. I got to say this, and I didn't touch on this. Got to remember who I've lost.

I lost Teddy. I lost Phyllis. I lost Johnny Hathaway. I work with these people. man. There's no such thing as a bad Philisville's there. I'll tell you.

You know how to love me. What's that? So, like I tell you, Quest, vocals is my thing. That's where I... More power to you, brother. I can barely get through this episode.

Let alone vocal. That's why we're talking, man. That's that exchange. So you know that line. There's no denying. Okay. Now, Phyllis is,

used to, okay, that's the take. I'm like, no, man, it's good. But there's something, we can get better. I think we took that note maybe about four or five times. It's just something like, because I heard I was going to put an extra reverb on it and let it just melt.

And then when you listen to that mix, it just goes, so after she finished it, motherfucker, is that it? That's a classic story A cat named David Nathan was there that night He was right He was doing an article

on Phyllis for Blues and Soul I think it was And he talks about that moment You know And Yeah man That was Phyllis I loved it

I loved it Now I'm gonna give you another story If you don't mind Y'all got you got old man rolling Hey man keep going Roll Back together again

Oh that's right That is yours Oh my gosh If we walked out here and not, we'd have been mad as shit. We'd been in the group chat, piss. We're working on that. Donnie, as most people know, you know,

had some mental challenges, you know, emotional. And that night, he was struggling, you know, and he broke down and ran out the studio to the bathroom. So I go out of the control room and I open the bathroom, door, he's in the corner crying.

I mean, sobbing. So I was like, oh, my God. So I got, I went down on the floor and kind of crawled up next to him. I said, brother, what's happening? He said, Toom say, trying to kill me. I said, who? He said, they're trying to kill me. They got my brain hooked up to a machine.

Now, I'm teared up. So I stay in there with him for a few minutes. So I said, I'm going to let him have his, I said, look, Donnie, tell you what you when you feel like you're ready to take it hit it you know just come on so he came out he tried it I knew he couldn't I stopped the session that was a Saturday night I said man we just come back Monday man he said tunes I'll kill this about 530 that morning phone rings I pick up somebody's crying I said well who's this she said it's Roberta she said to him too man

Donnie's dead. He jumped that night. So here's why I always emphasize that. Of everything I've been so fortunate to be involved with, back together again is the deepest piece. The last two songs that Donnie did, closer, I mean that were popular, the closer and back together again,

I had a part in this great artist. The last two songs he did, I was involved with. What was... So the vocal... What was the vocal? Okay, this trick. Okay. I'm telling you this.

So back together again, it wasn't finished. If you listen to this mix after I leave, Doni only did the first, no, the first, yeah, the first release, we can make it better, try to make it, we got to be. Wait, wait, is it Peebo? No, no, no, no, man. Yo, you were right here with me. You were right here with me.

Okay, listen. So back in the day, man. I mean, y'all have the advantage of technology. It wasn't no... You had to physically cut the tape with a razor blade. Exactly now, yeah. So what I did was make a copy of the first, edited in the second time.

That's the same performance. And if I didn't tell you that, you would have never known. The other trick, because he had died, we couldn't do a tag. So when they come back, The only thing that's emphasized, and the background do, do, do, do, do.

Roberto will come back. Donnie, because I knew it would be stupid. So the whole tag is just the instrumental and the background's being being manipulated. I would have never, ever

thought about that. Yo, how do we almost get for this episode and not ask that question? I just forgot that was his song. Did you do, You are my love, you are my heaven?

No, no, no. No, no, that was way before me. So, like I said, Quest, listen to that. And if I didn't tell you that, it just sound like it was done like that. I mean, without you being over-analytical, since you

kind of open it, because I know nothing about Donnie Hathaway as a person and that sort of thing. I don't exactly ask Layla, because she was young to. Ever, and he's been reduced.

to a footnote. There's not even a good documentary on him. He was every singer's favorite singer. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, was he, was he a normal cat with a extraordinary voice? Was he an centric cat with a beautiful voice? Like, I meet him on the closer. He had already had a couple nervous breakdowns. I never knew none of that stuff. Yeah. So here was the deep part. And this is literally. The first time I meet him, I'm at Roberta's apartment. Toombs come over, I want you to meet Donnie, and we're talking. This is a literal thing. We're talking.

He said, tunes, look at that gorilla. And I'm like, what the, how are we going to do a record? I sit down and play the song. He said, move over. I played it once. He sat down, played the exact voicings of every court. Then I realized he's a genius. He had that thing.

and then later I found out his roommate at Howard Leeuoy Hudson said he ran out and bought sketches in Spain when it came out and then you had a we had the photograph he played it and Donnie listened to it in one night the next day he was playing all the cuts from sketches in Spain so that's what he had the communications was off but when he sat at the keyboard man

or stepped in front of the mic you heard it you heard it So I didn't know him other than that way. That's so interesting that you, both of them went in there, had their mental illness. I'm sorry. Who? No, no, no, girl. No, I was just saying Phyllis too.

It's just interesting. Two different kinds of. Kenny called me when, you know, when Phyllis, you know, took a life. And he told me she was obsessed with, she was dated. She's all these, you know. She didn't think that the singers looked up to her. The Mary's in it. See, it's funny you say that

because I was just coming around like learning who she was around the time that she passed. I think don't want to change the role that had just been a hit or whatever. So I was just getting into Phyllis and then like, you know, a few months later, I'm here, I'm going to listen to the radio

and they come over and saying, you know, singer Phyllis Hyman is committed, you know. So we do, was it, you know how to love me? If you notice, there was never a second and Too May Lucas production with Phyllis. Why? Was that Clive?

No, Clive was begging me. That was Phyllis. No, this is what happened. Clive was like, when I took the record to him, we're playing it for him. He spins around. And look, I respect Clive because he's serious about the music. So he spins around and he's got back to us, you know. I give him the dad to play.

He listens to the whole album, every song. He spins back around. He said, well, him too many. Me already said he said, he said, I'm too many. Personally, I'm a little disappointed. So what? I went through miles. I don't care.

I was saying, I told him right there, I said, man, I was fine. I don't care. I said, I'll tell you what, this would be the biggest record cheese ever had. The record comes out. It's out for two weeks. I'm at the crib.

I get a call from Phyllis's manager. I forgot the brother's name. He's past. But I knew him. He was a friend of Vindougu's. He's the original cat that called me about, hey, man, maybe we can do. He said, there was an interview that came out.

He said, I'm calling you, man, because we're cool. I don't want nobody else to tell you. I forgot the name of the magazine. He said, go get it. Phyllis did an interview, man. And he said, and she's dogging you. I was like, and I was like, so you know me? I jumped in the car, man.

I should go get it. I had to come over to New York. I go, I didn't, I get back to the crib. It was one of them things. The cat during the interview was into, I hate this. You know, he's doing this R&B. I expected more. jazz and Phyllis kind of played into it.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. You know, but if Tumet has his way, you know, I wanted to use my musicians and my background singers, but he has this system. Yeah, most people do, you know. And I read it, man. And I never was angry with Phyllis. But what I knew was I couldn't do another record

because I couldn't write for you. How can I write for you? And I know your original vibe is... You don't believe it. Now, you don't trust me. Fortunately, about four weeks later, it was a hit. Okay, but what is the point I'm making? See, producers, you can always produce somebody else.

Our artist has to live on the success or failure of that record. That's how they work. That's how they get bookings. And I just knew I couldn't put my heart in it. So rather than do a BS record, and look, it was some big paper on the table. It wasn't, it's just it. So in retrospect, I mean not in retrospect,

even after the fact that the records are proven hit, you know, you guys never spoke after that like, hey. No, Phyllis called me. We got some magic, so should we? Okay, what's the magic? We did it. The magic was captured, but I know you didn't. Maybe she was just scared.

See, well, that's what I'm going to ask you. With geniuses, and I know, again, we rarely put women in the genius category or whatever. We overuse the word, You know, artists are so troubled. And you, I mean, you went through a slew of them. So I'm certain that to get the magic performance, you got to observe them and their hanger-ons in the break room,

whatever drug activity they're into. First of all, on vocals, my rule was there's nobody in this room. Nobody. Because I tell you, the vocal, when you're doing vocals, that's when the microscope. and if you're singing and you're looking through that glass, you're performing if people are in there. You can't help it.

I don't want a performance. I want a delivery. So nobody's ever allowed to be in there. So you don't have that distraction on vocal. That's the first time I've heard described it way because I've heard so many other producers say that they're trying to capture a performance. I'm trying to capture it, man. I'm trying to deliver it, yeah.

You know, C-O-D. I see what you did there. There you go. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness,

fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the end. impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress.

Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-P-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at It podcast. I'm Sam Jette. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Cliverts Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need.

to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Did we miss anything, y'all? Now I'm afraid to wrap it up because now I'm right. Okay, so was it true that Wrigley tried to come after you for juice fruit? Oh, yeah, they want to sue me. Wait, what? Juicy Fruit. So, wait, how did time out? How did you know about this? That's a stupid Was it in an issue of Jet Magazine in 1980?

In the global music academy In Japan I think it's the first time I mentioned it public Because I said I don't There's not a lot of tape And stuff of me So I get a call It's a big, big law firm

Representative Wrigley's So I got to go up there I'm walking this room in the table As long as this block I mean Lawyers on both side So they got the album cover They're going through all this

So they start questioning me And you showed up with no lawyer of your own I didn't need none because I knew where they was going to go And I had checkmated it I knew where I was going So Because I knew ultimately it was going to get to Mr. Matumi

What do you mean when you say You can lick me everywhere I said well obviously it's not about gun I said, it's about oral sex. I ain't never seen some of me red faces in my life. But that was the end of the interview for me. It was like, okay, okay, please leave, you know. But I understood where they was going.

And I just knew what they was going to say. But I ain't know, you know, and that, I hate to keep talking about that line, but y'all have no idea how crazy it was. We couldn't even cut the video. They made me candy kisses everywhere. And I hated that because, Epic was just so scared of that.

And at that time, one of the things I was proud of, as far as single sales, we were doing what Michael was doing with that record. And that record really never crossed over to pop. And my thing is, man,

and remember, there was also the beginning of black videos where you had to, people were telling you you had to take some of the blackout. And I never did that. And what we did, you mean here? Especially with you mean he.

Okay. Turn that off, Mayor. What? Okay, I go through the struggles of hiring a black production team to do you, me, and he. We walk out on the set the first day. We flew out to California to do it. In the audience is 85% white people couples and about 15% black couples. I said, look, man, I had to be honest to my audience.

I said, you don't see Bruce Spring singing, you know. Brothers, yeah. 85% black. I said, be honest to your audience. And so I said, man, we got to shoot, do it tomorrow. The cat said, no, man. I said, well, I'll pay for it. I'm not doing this to the people that love our music.

So we never did that. I watched a lot of groups to try to get on MTV. And only other voice that was out there with that was Rick James. MTV wouldn't play any black videos until, you know, the famous thing when the Epic Sony said they pull all their videos. if they didn't play Billy Jean. That's how crazy it was. But I saw a lot of cats.

The music got real square. You tell the truth because back when, like I used to be really addicted to Lee Bailey's radio school. Radio school? Yeah. And I remember there really being a, man, just like an instant backlash of, like when Cameo really started to get their pop shit on. Word up and. And especially with the Candy Video.

Like people were calling Lee Bailey complaining like, how come they're no brothers, how come no sisters in these videos? Oh no, no, that was a no-no. That was a no-no. Now, look, and I'll tell you that. Now, Juicy Fruit, there was barely any black videos. The only place I saw black videos was, what's the brother, Ralph?

Ralph McDaniel. Yeah, Ralph Dan. And you had to have, that was channel 31 or something. But when we did juicy fruit, we was on tour. We flew in, cut that like in a day. And I wasn't into the complexion. Okay, it didn't matter. And it's just like non-racial looking a woman.

And I said, well, I don't know. Okay, when we're doing this video, boom. Then I noticed that was really what started being. Like, what is she? And my daughter came to me, Bein, my youngest daughter. She was about five or six one day. She said, Baba, you know, that's father in Swahill. She said, I guess I can't be in no videos.

Because she's chocolate. And she was referring to a prince. She said everything I see. Oh, Prince was the worst. Sorry. No, no, I'm not saying no. You ain't right. As a female.

I'm saying that became the thing for this bullshit they call crossover. I said, this is bullshit. Crossover and can't get black. That's what's happening here. It ain't getting back. You can't get black. Because why do blacks have to always cross over? Then you got to marry.

I mean, I said, you don't ask. the Rolling Stones, man. You know, they got to do funk, although they were funky. But all that onus was on us, and I spoke out on it, and it was like, oh man, this cat is out. No, it wasn't that. It was like, this is the truth.

This is the truth. It is the truth. And so, you mean he, obviously there's a brown-skinned woman in the lead, and I did that on purpose. And it was awful, man, because a lot of young sisters got messed up. And I Helps. Nelson did a book called The Death of Rhythm and Blues. And I was, you know, we were talking a lot during that time.

Videos helped kill R&B, man. Not kill it, you know, literally, but it was like the visual became more important than the artist. You know, I said, man, so what, Slice Stone, how he looked, Al Green, how he looked, no, it's how they made us feel. then it became your brand and I got a thing with that it's funny you mention that because the thing that I remember the most as a kid because juicy fruit came out I think I was maybe like

83 so I was 4 so I remember that record and the thing I can remember was the braids and like the beads on the braids and how the thing I was looking and I was like man they ain't got Jerry curls you know what I was like yo I'm fucking with this already

and it was so funny man because they played us in the movie, the biggie movie. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was some Rick James looking like that? I said, I bit that, but that was like a rough because To Arthur called me when she saw, she said, man, you see what that?

It's cool. It's cool, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. So being as, being as though, I guess some almost 20 plus, almost 25 years later, the aftermath of Juicy and what it's meant to the hip-hop generation whereas now, you know, people hear Biggie's voice

as the default version before they even think of the original version. Most of them didn't even know the original. Right. So with as many times as that song's been interpolated and sampled, is it at least the I know the myth of the I'm always hearing these guys

on doing interviews or whatever like Steely Dan might make a joke about Dejaveo like chit-ching like that sort of thing Is it Is it is And I'm not

Exact figure or whatever But is the myth True of like Hey just one great hit That's used by The Juicy has been At least used in the 90 Maybe 100 plus songs

My favorite version, though, was the Keisha Coles in Missy. Yeah, to let it go. Yo, man. I don't know the type of tricksy plan, but I should warn you, I don't want you man. I understand why you want to try. Make them stay home late at night. But if you'll be going to try how many times I cried, think I got, go inside.

So do you have to, for each time that song's youth, Do you have to determine the percentage that you wanted that song? Yeah, yeah. Like, whereas, okay, if... You know what, depended on how much of it they used. The thing that was interesting about Juicy, like I said, when I wrote it, the beat wasn't the main thing.

But if you think about it, it's probably the most identifiable beat in R&B. My favorite use of it was 1G. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. That was the junior on top. That was the first version. I mean, the first time it was sample.

He used it twice, right? He used it twice when that album. Matter of fact, he lives it three times because this DJ. Oh my God, he used it three times on the one album. This DJ was a different thing. This DJ was twice on that first album. Oh, yeah, he did. Okay, yeah, that one.

The vocal part. The West Coast really. The West Coast really. People are taking it. The West Coast. really, I always felt the West Coast hip hop was funk. Yeah. You know, more so than the East.

Definitely. East is more jazz. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, West is more fun. And so they, they vibed right away. And I always thank young people. This is how I found out that I think we had something with juicy. I'm sitting in the creator named Scott Fulks who helped in the remix, 12 inch.

And back then, 12 inch met you're still using the original. You ain't bringing in another or redoing. extended or whatever. And, yeah, you just extended. And he said, man, Tunes, I want you to come with me to this club up in the Bronx. It was with Grand Master Spunk, the first hip hop club. What's it? The Roxy.

So he said, man, can you come this weekend? I said, yeah, man. He said, I'm going to come and pick you up. I said, would you want me to be ready round 10? He said, no, round three. He said, man, I'm going to take you, man. He said, man, they spend juicy around 4.30. Wow.

I want you to see the hip hop generation's response to it. I never thought that you could dance to Juicy or just, and the floor just, and I see, it's just that you write something. You didn't think you could dance to it? No. So you really thought you were making a ballot. No, I thought I was making this. It's kind of a chillout, relax. It's a bar.

You see. Yeah, just late, but I'm into, man, take these chords. Don't the jazz guy coming out. In your head, is juicy a ballot with some oomph behind it? No, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my tempo phone. Mid tempo, mm-tempo, if you, but as you're creating it, is this temple? Are you, are you just thinking like, okay, there's some filler on the album or no, no, no, we had finished the album, is going to kill him? The album was done. I had cut this all the songs. I said, what happened was that night, everybody went back home, I called

everybody back up after I laid that tune. Everybody came back about one o'clock in the morning. We cut it that night. Literally. You made them turn around. One rule I have, when I'm writing, whatever hook that comes to my head, that's always the first hook, that's the hook.

And I'm listening back as we laid it. I said, juicy fruit. Sometimes what I'd like to do now, that record, Tuatha was on tour with, with Roxy Music. Oh, wow. She was in Europe. Damn. So we had a couple days off.

So flew her back from London. So we cut the vocals that night. I'm writing a verse as she's performing, like the first verse. So she's performing it, and I'm writing the second verse. I said, I wanted to put some pressure on myself. I wrote the lyrics literally that night while she's singing. We, you know, we wrapped it up. She flew back.

you know and you know is that you uh is that your voice I need it I need it

oh girl oh yeah just I'm we had so much if you notice I would do these little

outtakes like when you me and he it's the monogamy mix yeah yeah yeah

yeah just to reiterate yeah so we just let that do do do bit

uh But do do do do I said look man let's just go in and just freestyle like we're talking You know, wow. Well, uh, uh, mr. to me. Oh man, look, I just want to thank y'all. This is such I want to thank you all so much this has been it Inferly this is this is layer layers upon layers upon layers of wisdom that you've given us and Well, no that was given to me I ain't got nothing man. Look you're channeling to us. Well, I'm challenging man look all the cats that I was blessed to be around man

Fonte, what did you learn today, bro? Oh my God. He's like a walking sage, yo. It's so much, like, so much game. Like, I hope people like really listen to this interview. And it's not even, it's, I mean, you're talking music, but it applies just to life. Life.

You know, I mean, like, it's not even, it just applies to so many things. I'm just listening to, yeah, man, just thank you. Just thank you for your music. I grew up on your music. Thank y'all. I mean, I've been a lifetime, long-time fan. You know, thank you.

And like I said, It's just needs to be more of this exchange of generational information, man. I'm Pete Bill. What did you learn this episode? I would say for an atheist, that was a very religious experience. I learned five things. Are you ready?

Yes. Stop playing what you know, play what you don't know. Simplexity, yeah. Websters, look out. No leaning. Right now we got half a glass of music, which I love. And every hit is a nursery rhyme, which is my fucking life. Literally.

Circus Steve, I remember Genev. Yeah. I reiterate with both of them said, and the successful transition from jazz to R&B, the natural transition at that exact moment, you know, unforced. Because you see a lot of bands and artists

trying to keep up with the time and so forth, but it seemed like you were at the right age, maybe at the right time, the right amount of experience to do it legitimately, to do R&B with real musicality and with jazz in it. So yeah, that's pretty cool. Boss Bill, what did you learn today, man? I learned that so many great moments in music history just seemed to happen as afterthoughts. Like, you know, juicy fruit, which is, I was telling Amir before we started.

It's one of the first songs I ever remember hearing as a kid. Like that and Atomic Dog, so who knows? That's probably why I turned out the way I did. But yeah, it just seems like it's fascinating how, like, we hear all these stories about these songs and these, these moments that we've kind of come to fetishize, you know, in our lives. And it just turns out they were just kind of throwaway moments in most people's lives. You weren't really thinking about it. You just did it and you went on with it and changed the world.

So I think that's something that's good to always keep in mind is, you know, You never really know what you're doing until after you've done it. Yeah. And the people determine that. Yeah, yeah. You know, music don't come from you, it comes through you. You know, I always equated like you're watching the television. Those images are not coming from that box.

It's the signals that that box is picking up. So I never was challenged with the ego thing. And plus, man, look who I played with. How dare I even think? Look, I ain't did nothing, man. compared to the cats that raised me, man. And that's how you got to look at it. I see cats get a hit and trip.

And if you know, if you don't put the work in, the worst thing in the world is a one-hit wonder. Because you get a hit, you don't know how to get back there because you ain't got no railroad tracks. Damn. Say no more. You've been signing off.

I got more juice. Bill's right now more. You ain't got no railroad track here. None. How are you going to get back? I would just invite everybody to go back and listen to this episode to make notes, creative process, intuition, intellect and technique, and everything,

just so much. Just thank you. Coffee table books. Can I leave y'all with one last story? And watch and song. Yes. Real quick. One more story.

One more story, because I just thought about this while y'all were talking about it, and I appreciate everything y'all said, man, I really do. How many songs could get lost, the close I get to you? Roberta invites me over to the listening session. I'm at Erdogan is there. I'm sitting on the couch

You know I'm just nobody You know He listens to the whole album It's the president of Atlantic True honest to God story He says I love everything

But that close I get to you What? To this day I always thank Roberta Because she rumbled I heard it They went out in the hallway It got loud

To keep it on the album He wanted to take it off He said I'll never forget When he came back He said It's boring and repetitious.

Okay. So he comes back in and says, all right, we'll keep it on. But there's never be a single. Name me the first single off that album. Close one. Close one. No.

No, it wasn't the first single. Oh. But that's the one it is. On Blue Lights and the basement? That's the old one. It was the first single. Still deep. No.

You can't name. You've already proved this point. You've already proved this point. Technically, tell me what was the first song? I don't even remember. Yeah. I think, hold it. On real life, you can look this up right now.

I think it was something called the 24th of December. Oh, yes. And I said, that'll be over on the 25th. That is the correct answer. So the album, back then, you know, the album comes like six or seven weeks after the first single. When the album dropped, the DJs demanded closer. Get this man a star on the Philly Walk of Fame. That's another thing.

Oh, yeah. I was going to say that I learned. that you're from Philadelphia and I believe that most Philadelphians don't know you're from Philadelphia. Why do you think that is? Because you're quiet. I will absolutely 100%

make sure We got to talk about The Balau connection with Oh, I was going to say, Jesus, I forgot. I was also going to say his career. Oh, oh, oh, okay. Just put that right over there. That's good, that's good. I was going to say we didn't

I was talking about career in radio too. Well, real quick, Bilau. My son Fai and Daimu were managing Bilau. I met Bilau, brought him to the house. They had the demo for the first album. And I listened to it. And he and I talked, he came in the basement, and we were talking.

I said, man, why do you have a... harmonies on every line. I said, if you do that, I can't, I don't know what the hook is. I said, your hook has got to be, I said, you're not comfortable singing

and, you know, because he had harmonies on everything. So, we talked, and then they had cut soul system. So, fire came to me and

said, look, Bob, I need, you know, there was no melody. The hook was already there. You must be, but that do-d-d-do-do-do-do-do-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-do-do-do. So I put, Gay, put the melody on that. And that was just a great experience. Thank you for that. He's a monster. He's a monster.

Shout out to Questlove in the video. You know, how? Yeah, how I cut vocals. My girlfriend shut this. Sly Stone showed me something. He lived with me for about six months. Wait, wait, what? Wait, you just can't drop that in like,

and we are not going to fourth hour. How does Sly Stone wind up in your house? And we've heard many of Slythe Stone on this show. How do he wind up in your house? Slicestone and I cut some tracks. I have it. What year? Like 85, 84?

No, no, no. No, after that. We also co-produced a couple of tracks on a track on the barquees called Just Like a Tita Tata. Man, we gotta get barcays on. Wait, what? One day I was at the crib,

and a dear friend of mine called me Tyrone Brunson. He did the Smurf. Yes. Is he from Philly, too? No, he's from D.C. Okay. And Tyrone, he was out somewhere, and he said, man, look, man, I'm here with Slye Stone.

He wants to know, can he talk, you know, would you talk to him? So, slide gets on the phone. He said, man, I heard that, you know, you're cool, you know, but, you know, you have cats talk. He said, man, can I come out and holler with you, man? I said, cool. So I sent him a ticket. Oh, boy. He came.

And he stayed with me for about six months. And we went in the student, absolute genius. Like on a roommate basis. No, no, I have a house. We were in a roommate, you know. Oh, I'm sorry. You had a large situation. Well, no, no, I don't have no mansion.

That's for Hollywood. But large enough to give y'all space. Yeah, yeah. But I got a chance to see Funk Genius. And he came to me, he said, man, because I want you to show me them chords. He called them blankets. He said, you play blankets. slide and miles was going to do something when i this is when i'm with miles on the uh and then slide

told me when he came so he said man i was going to do it he said but then i got scared he said it was miles he said but now i'm getting a chance to work with you so he said like it's kind of you know so i would show him these chords and he showed me more about funk than i could have ever learned So like I said, I always say, man, I'm just channeling. This cat worked 27 hours a day, man. He had a little cassio, and he was making songs. We cut about four demos, and I have him. When's the last time you spoke to him?

I think Slah called me about eight years ago. I haven't talked to himself. Were you and Tawatha, were y'all ever married or romantic anything? Those who know. Okay. Dismissed. I'm not going in them houses, man. Okay, so wait, when...

You mentioned the barquees. Yeah. When did you work with them? That was 89 on the animal album. This cat here, man. Scary. I got the internet. I got the internet.

Yeah, I see. I'm old. I'm not ancient. I know. Just like a teeter title, man. It's a funky jam. Matter of fact, when DiAngelo called me... That was probably his song.

You know, he loves the most unusual. I was like, where did you even find that? Yes, he will. But it's funky. If you ever play it, man, just check it. He will know. All right, is there any artist that almost was and didn't happen that we, I don't want to close, I know we're going to close a book. Who did you work with that didn't happen, almost happened, could have happened?

No, that's a great question. Because when I stopped, did you reject an artist? Did someone come to you and say, hey, I want you to produce and you were like, I'm good. I see his nephew, you shakey, like, yeah. Kept no. And I don't mean, like, in the new, I'm talking about. Oh, my God. Lucille.

Whoa. Whoa. What? Here we go. Oh, my God. And shit again. Thank you. I try to put that out of memory, too, if I did that.

All right. I met Luther through Tuatha Okay Yeah because you're singing background He's singing on He's doing backgrounds on Giving on Up that album I think was our second album

In Search of the Rainbow Sears Y'all did that on a soul tree Yeah Damn That's Luther Of course that's Luther's voice Of course that's Luther's voice Okay

Yes Luther also put the backgrounds on Do do do do do Do do Back together again Yes that's Luther Luther also sang on that

It was awesome. It was a song on there. Oh, man, God. He put, he put, so Luther comes to me. We got to deal with Warner Brothers. There was a singer named Mark Sedan. Baby, won't you stay? How do you know that?

I love that record. I hate y'all, man. That's a duet with Tuatha, right? But it's on that album. Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but Mark Sedain. So Luther once, like, yo, man, I want you, I was like, no, because I'm doing this. But, you know, you don't, you never think, because if I had done him, that doesn't mean it would have been the same result.

It was, it happened like it's supposed to happen. Yeah, but Luther, thank you, Kevin. I mean, what period, like, when he first got signed? First album. Damn, so it could have been you instead of Marcus Miller. Arkansas Villa, yeah. His first album. Oh, that was a good thing.

To Waltha is singing on, she sang on every Luther song. I mean, every album. Yes, she is. She's out with Dave Matthews now, right? She used to be. No, man, let's not even go there, man. Look.

No, I mean, I'm in Jess. She has been with everybody, man. Dude, she's been, I've played with her three times. And she told me to mention to you, y'all, y'all stopped calling. Right, right. I didn't realize until Lenny brought her back. She told me what she did.

And she's like, you just know, noticed me now? Like, I've been here. No, she told me when you first met, when she told her name, you said, yo, an embrace her and told her cats. Yeah. Like, we need to have her own. Why the love Supreme? Yeah, we do. Look, and you talk about a history.

Lenny Kravitz, Steely Dan, Dave Matthews, David Bowie, Eriezer Franklin. Where's she originally from? New it. That's how we She was in the group, hot tea. And they were at Howard.

So I was living in New York. So I said, here's my number. So when you finish, give me a call. She graduates, comes back, and we start to get a couple little things happening to me and Reggie. And she comes back and we get the Stephanie album. So she was a vocal contractor on every record. That's amazing You need it, man

Because that's a history You really need to know Well Because background singing Is an art form That's getting lost to I'm actually going to see her In four days

So I will There is I shall be stalking her Okay Yeah I'm so afraid To end of this episode That's a great word

We got the Luther stories We got That was Calf Thank you I forgot Luther Okay All right I learned

Everything All the things. Yeah, you're from Philly, and I learned that Philly doesn't know that you're from Philly. That's crazy, man. But we'll be at the Walk of Fame induction, whatever. Yes. Because the Roots got one, so we got to get you here. Yeah. Yes. Okay, well...

Well, you know, if it happens, cool, if it don't, I'm good. It will definitely happen. I'm good. I'm good. It will happen. We thank you for coming and sharing everything. Thank you. Thank you so much. We have a sugar Steve and I'm paid bill and I'm boss bill. New boss bill. I'm boss bill.

I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, it's Pahlia and Fonticolo and Questlove and James and Tume. We will see you on the next go-round of Questlove Supreme. Questlove Supreme is a production of I-Heart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from I-Heart Radio, visit the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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