The Questlove Show - Black Music Month QLS Classic: Kenny Gamble

Episode Date: June 30, 2024

A daily celebration for Black Music Month comes to a close with one of its founders. Living legend Kenny Gamble is considered one of the greatest composers, producers and music businessmen of all time. He and his partner Leon Huff literally crafted The Sound Of Philadelphia. So get ready to join him along with Questlove and Team Supreme. Class is now in session!  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that

not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Hey, what's up, y'all? This is Questlove. And as you've noticed, throughout June, we are celebrating Black Music Month by releasing an episode every day.

So, every day, you're either going to hear a special pick QLS classic, and on Wednesdays we're dropping new two-part episodes with Wayne Brady and James Poyser, both of which were filmed in the studio, so make sure you also watch us on YouTube. We are closing out with one of the architects of Black Music Month, the amazing. Ladies and gentlemen. You know that's all I got. Ladies and gentlemen, this is another episode of Quest Love Supreme. We have the Supreme team with us.

We have Fantigolo in the house. Yeah. And we got our boss Bill. And yeah, you hear them loud and clear. We got unpaid bill. Yeah. And we also have Sugar Steve. And of course, Laia, how are you?

Great. This is a special episode. We are not doing the Supreme Roll Call. We are in the presence of Black Music Royalty. Universal Music Royalty. And I hate you're going to cut this song off in a minute, too. This is my jam. No, the best part's about to happen.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's it, there. Ladies and gentlemen, we are blessed to be in the presence of one of the greatest, one of the greatest composers, businessmen, producers. So on so funky, I can't even form a sentence. Just be quiet. Don't talk. Ladies and gentlemen, the man who gave us the sound of Philadelphia.

The man who gave me my own career. Without him, there is no sound of Philadelphia. The one and only, Kenny Gamble, on course left supreme. And I almost don't want you to turn it again. So class. I'm sorry, you got to wait until my part. Come on. It's coming.

Come in. And please, can we tell people what this song is? This is MFS Big Mysteries of the World. Yes. You skipped it. No, I didn't. This is so good. I had to go back to the top.

I'm sorry. But it was just right there. Actually, it wasn't. I went to the end of the song to avoid that bridge, but I didn't know that meant so much that, you know, I just ruined a moment for you. Yeah, you did. You did. Welcome to Quest Love Supreme, sir. This is what we do.

We just argue about things. Again, Mr. Kenny Gamble, Dr. Kenne Gamble. Man, thank you. That's beautiful. What about Dexter Wiles? Oh, man, I was listening to You Can Be What You Want to Be this morning in the shower. That's my jam right there. You know what you want to be.

It's a great one. Yeah. And one million miles from the ground. So we're just going to start there. Just on the top of the mountains. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. These are jams.

Yeah, these are jams. And I want to say just, I'm so, it's such an honor to have you here because you're the first record label as a kid. I knew exactly what the records were gonna sound like. Just from the label. From the label. I remember like my aunt, she was like a big, you know,

Philly International, so she had everything. She was a real big Gene Caron fan. Oh, great. And so she used to play, like, I'm back for more. Like, that's like one of my favorite songs. But I remember, like, going through a record collection and anytime I saw like that green, the green label with the little red,

I knew it was going to be. going to be strings. I knew it was going to be like super clean. Like I just knew that. And that was so amazing. We tried to make it red, black, and green. You know, I. Oh. Wow. I didn't even think about that. So the vinyl was black. The vinyl was black. Right. Wow. Because the people got the power.

There's levels to this. So, okay, so was it by design? Because there was a point in history when that logo didn't have the two white dots in the middle. Our logo? Yes. The very first, like, I miss you. Oh, how I'm having the blue notes. The two white dots aren't in the middle of the Philly International. That didn't come until like 73.

So there are a few albums that are without that white dots. I thought that was by design. It's the first I'm hearing about this. Well, it could be different pressing plants, similar with Lyskin Motown and Darcytap Motown. But that's great, man. It really is. And I tell you, we tried our best. And we had good people with us, too.

You guys succeeded as far as our time. Yeah. Well, I'm thankful. Thank you very much. And I'm glad to be here. Thank you. This is a beautiful thing. There's a lot of energy going on.

Were you born in Philadelphia? South Philly, yeah. Where? 15th and Christian. Wow. Down the block from where you live now. Right down the block from where I live now. And you still live there?

Still live there. How does it feel to grow up there, to be born there, and see where it sort of dissolved to, and you single-handedly, you did gentrification the right way. You right way. Yeah, well. I ate at those restaurants. I loved eating those restaurants.

Everything that you did for that neighborhood. It's been, you know, it really, to me, it was like, It was like a no-brainer almost. How can you live in the world where you got the era that I grew up in, where you got Malcolm X, you got Muhammad Ali, you got Elijah Mohammed, you got Reverend Leon Sullivan, you got all these great people talking about building our community. And then I used to go to a lot of meetings and I would ask people,

I said, well, who's going to do it? You know what I mean? We all say, you know, we should do this and we should do this. and we should do that, and we could have this, and we could have that. But the question is, is who's going to do it? So with my children and everything, with Kleefe and Saladin and I did, and my family, we decided to give it a try. And I didn't live there all the time, of course.

I lived there, and then I moved away like everybody else do. I moved into the suburbs, and it was really nice, but I kept thinking about South Philly. You know, and I'm always in South Philly because that's where our office was and everything. So eventually, I don't know, inspiration comes to, came and said, look. And when we did, let's clean up the ghetto. That was one of those ones that kept pounding in your head. And so it's like a, you got to, you put one foot forward and see what you can do.

And it all started pretty much with buying the properties. once we started buying all the properties and we had so many of them he said now what are we going to do with all these raggedy houses all these baking lots and raggedy houses and so it's just a matter of hey we're going to clean up to ghetto we're going to rebuild and the way to

not only rebuild the houses but rebuild the people rebuild the culture and everything and so so it's not a it's, it's, it, we've been there now, so we moved like 1990. 1990 is when we moved back to South Philly, you know, and we were in, we were in Gladwood, you know, because it was beautiful out in Gladwin. And, uh, but it wasn't as beautiful as it was when we moved back to South

Philly, although it was a culture shock for my kids, everybody, you know, but, yeah. See, where we that down, you know, but it's like one of those things where, you know, you can't, you can't really keep asking somebody else to do something for you. Talk about it. That you can do for yourself, you know, so that's pretty much what this is an effort. And it's not by myself. We got hundreds of people that really saw where we were coming from and you rebuild a whole neighborhood. You rebuild a whole community of people. Not to mention the school system. And the schools, everything evolves around health, good health, and education. That's it.

So we have some tremendous health programs that we work on. And education was the number one thing that we got involved with. And that was the charter schools. And so we have eight charter schools. And believe me, it's not an easy thing. It's not easy. It's going to take years and years to reverse this consciousness that's within especially the African-American community.

But it's working. It can and it will work, you know, so it's not easy. Did you know that you were going to see it through from the very beginning, assuming that you started acquiring the property in the late 80s? Because even I heard, like, I, when my uncle used to drive me to and from school, and we used to go, like, all that dilapidated, busted down property. And he was like, yeah, you know, Kenny Gamble owns all the, and I could imagine, like, all these blocks. He's like, yeah, you know.

And I couldn't see that far in the future to figure out what vision you had to refer and restore it back to what it is now. Like, so from, what year did you start to say that I'm gonna rebuild? Well, when we did that record? Is it 14 and 15 blocks in South Philly? Well, we, well, it's, we started like from, like 11th Street all way up to like 24th Street,

from South Street, all way over to, all the way over to Washington Avenue. That was the area. And within that area, there were a lot of vacant. We had maps. We had like a war room, you know what I mean? Maps that had every house,

every abandoned lot, every school, everything on these maps. And what we did is came up with our plan. Our plan was to be able to build a community that you could take and have some open spaces, you know, where you'd have some gardens and have something open. The schools, I mean, this has been the hardest part is the schools.

I mean, the education thing. And what- As in developing it? Like, you just can't tell the city. You got to work with them. Yeah, you got to work with them. Even if it's a private school or? Well, these are charter schools.

So these are public-private schools. The problem with private schools is the economics of it. you know and and and because many of our people don't have the money to pay to go to a charter school I mean to a private school right yeah so so we have we got a one wonderful thing going and and one of things I can't think of it now you know that's one of the things that happen when you get old you start missing things you'd be thinking about it started with us too it's gone but it'll come back it'll come back later yeah man so How did music first enter your life growing up in Philadelphia?

What got you into music? Yeah. Well, you know, the music to me was always, they always love music. And there was a day that sticks out in my life, right? The day that sticks out in my life was there used to be a baptism. they used to happen on 15th Christian where I used to live. And it was the Daddy Grace Church 16th and 15th.

House of Prayer. House of Prayer. So the bands, I don't know if you ever heard their bands in there. But it was around my birthday when they had their convocations. And that morning, when my mother, I asked, I said, well, who is that?

You know, up the street. and they were out there baptizing people with this hose, with a hose. Oh, wow. Yeah, with a water hose. And it was so interesting that even today, I still go there, because they always had a convocation around my birthday.

They have it all across the country, by the way. And so that's what really got me listening to music. And when you listen to our music, listen to them horns in there, because I try to get them home. horns going in there and it was good. One other thing you asked me was seeing the whole project through. We started in the 70s with buying the properties, we cleaned up the ghetto.

The intention was to buy those properties and get the land first. And so that was, there was a brother, his name was Norman Gadsden, who worked along with us. and he was a real estate guy. He knew a lot about real estate, and my wife, she knew about real estate. So we kind of disguised Norman as a person because then we could get them for very low prices because at that particular time,

the property in these neighborhoods that, I mean, these vacant lots and whatever at that time, they were very, very cheap, you know, and the city really wanted to see things, developed and they had a couple of public housing programs and so we were able to build up a construction development company and it worked out good it worked out real good that that the city of Philadelphia it's not easy it's not easy because it's a lot of red tape involved and all this stuff but you know you got to go through it to get to where you

want to go that's what started the whole thing but but But the one ingredient, as we were doing this, brother, the one thing that came into my mind was, why haven't these programs worked before? You have so many good intentioned people that want to do something in the community. And what I found out is that in the development business, is that you have people who live out of the African-American community doing all the work in the community. And so what we decided to do is to live in the community. So that was the biggest decision of all,

is to move back into South Philadelphia and be there so that the neighborhood, because it was all in the newspapers. You know, Kenny Gamble moves back to South Philadelphia. Because what do you call it when the neighborhood is being turned around? Gentrification. Gentrification. Thank you, brothers. That was starting to happen.

And even today, I mean, it's just unbelievable. You got lots in South Philadelphia that were at that particular time, maybe, you know, you could buy them for $5,000 or whatever. But today, those same lots today might cost you $50,000, $100,000. And so it's become a money game. In fact, all of it is based on economics. And this is like New York in Harlem. Same thing happened there.

Same thing happened in Washington, D.C., all over the country, you know. So that's what happened. Wow. So with music, you were a guitar player, correct? Or you played... Almost a guitar player. I've heard about you dabbling guitar back. Yeah, I got maybe about six chords that I can play.

That's all you need. What was the first musical performance you gave Or like, how did you develop your chaps? Well, you know, we had a band called the Romeo's. Okay. And always, we had some good people. I mean, Roland Chambers, he was a guitar player. Oh, he was great, man, you know.

And then his brother Carl was a drummer called Chambers. And you had Tom Bell, who played keyboards. you had Leon Huff, who was with us, who played keyboards and whirlwinds and all that stuff. And you had Lenny Pekula, who played the organ. And so we used to play on the weekends all the time. All the time. We play on the weekends. And that was a lot of fun.

That was a whole lot of fun working on the weekend. Well, it's, I would say that, so you're saying that the gathering of the, what you would form or dubbed the Sound of Philadelphia, Tom Bell and all those guys, they, you all started together when you were in high school. Oh, yeah. Tom Bell, I met him, his sister, my name is Barbara. She used to be in my class. And so she asked me, she said, come on, walk me home one day. One day, so I walked her home. She lived on Parrish Street, 50-something, 50th and parish.

When I got to their house, I heard somebody playing a piano. So I asked, I said, who's that playing the piano? She said, that's my brother Tommy. I said, let me meet him. Me and Tommy Bell, we wrote three songs that day. Wow. Really? We still got those songs.

I mean, and the funny part about it is, I keep telling him. I said, Tom, I said, we gotta cut them songs. I said, we gotta cut them songs, man. Because if we go, nobody will know, you know what I mean? But wait, I got a question. You were, weren't you raised, were you raised Jehovah's Witness, right? Yeah, Jehovah's Witness. So how did the music, how did you, because aren't that kind of strict when it comes to the music?

Or how did you? Yeah, I mean, well, yeah, they have their own music, Jehovah's Witnesses. But they do, I didn't even know that. Scary. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're not their own. own music they have their own little songbook it's not like going to a baptist church or whatever and they got

you were never raised in that sort of no hollering fire and brimstone no not really no never raised in that but you know what i loved it you know i love i love being in the house of prayer and um and i still go around there i still go there even now when i want to charge and i want to i want to see the real thing happening i mean you get like you say you go to eat good a good meal. Right. And not only spiritual food, but you get some physical food,

you know, and so I always keep it on in mind, you know. Your partnership with Brother Leon Huff, when did that? Oh, that was, that was really the key to the whole thing. There used to be the Shubit Theater

on Broad Street. And, and Huff and I, we were working in the same building. I was working on the sixth floor, and Huff was working on the fourth floor. I was working with a guy named Jerry Ross, who had a label, The Dream Lovers.

I don't know if you remember them, when we get married and all those songs like that. And Huff was working with Medera and Associates. They had Bunny Sigler. He was working with them, and you had Lynn Barry. who did one, two, three. They were working with Leslie Gore.

I mean, so me and me and Huff just met up one day coming in that building. And we started talking because there wasn't that many African-Americans in that building. So. Was it kind of like a Brill building for Philadelphia? There you go.

The same thing, but much, much smaller than the Brill building, you know what I mean? And so we was able to to meet up and talk a little bit about what we wanted to do, you know, with our dreams and aspirations were. And so I went over his house. I said, I'm going to come over your house. He lived in Camden.

So I went over his house one day. And we started writing songs. It was just like me meeting Tommy Bell, Mee and Huff must have wrote maybe about six, seven songs, you know? And from that point on, then Huff got in the band, the Romeo's. Okay. And that's who made it really, us jealous. even closer because we would be rehearsing all the time.

And the key to the Romeo's was that the Romeo's was a band that we used to take songs that were already out that were very popular. Like, say for them, they keep on pushing like Curtis Mayfield and people like that. We would take their songs and rearrange them. We'd do a lot of medleys.

We'd do, people would be familiar with the songs, but they would be different. And Huff is a singer. Roland was a singer. Tommy was a singer. I could sing a little bit. So we used to do like the high lows. Oh, wow.

We were like, yeah, like take six. We used to do that kind of music too, you know. And I really liked that better than anything, you know, when we all sang together. You know, because I never really did like being on stage myself, not by myself, you know. I never did. Strength in numbers.

Strengthen numbers. It was beautiful, you know, so. So do you know the first song that you charted on an artist, pre-Filly International? Pre-Filly International. The first hit that we had before, International. What was the label seen like in Philly? Like, I know there's Lost Night. There was a lot of them.

Yeah, there was a lot of them. It was a chancellor. There was Cameo Parkway. I did a... Dad, like, record for all these labels. All over. I have a collection of just like 50 labels, all with different... Unbelievable.

I was a fan of Leander. Leandro's? I was a fan. I knew him. Yeah, unbelievable. He was... Its voice was, like, unbelievable. Oh, thank you.

So how was it that we had, like, over 20 labels in Philadelphia, and then suddenly they just started to dissolve one by one. The industry changed. Okay. Industry changed. It's like it's changing now. The industry changed then because it went from independent distributors to the corporations taken over. Say, for example, you would have, I would say in Philadelphia there were about, let's say, 15 distributors in Philadelphia.

in Philadelphia. And those distributors would might be Rosens was a distributor on North Broad Street and he would sell, he would distribute maybe Mercury Records, RCA records, and maybe Epic.

Then you'd have William's distribution. They would have four or five other labels. Now the thing of it is that it got down to the point where where the industry became more consolidated.

Okay. Like a Chippets. Chippets had Motown, it had Scepter, it had all these labels, you know. And you would make a record. We made records, and it was much easier in those days for us because you make a record,

you go get Chippets to distribute it for you, and it was airplay was the whole thing. You got to get your record on the radio. Somebody's got to play it in order for people to want it. And so the whole industry changed when the CBSes, the Warner Brothers and all of these major corporations started to consolidate

and they would buy all of these little laborers, and put them all together. Then Warner Brothers became a distributor themselves. Oh, okay. Columbia Records became a distributor themselves. And so once they became distributors, they were able to take guys like gambling off

because we were independent. In fact, it was a good thing and a bad thing because they became your competition now, you know, the major companies. Right. But what we were able to do is, to survive because we became a creative company. And the marriage that we needed was

and that we searched for was an administrator who could collect whatever royalties, whatever monies that was due from all over the world. Because it's a worldwide industry. So you've got to be able to collect money from Philippines and Brazil, every place you can think of. Yeah. How familiar are you with the Harvard

report, which I believe that the original Harvard report was drafted in 1971. Of which I guess it was stated that for I don't know the point was that

for major labels to survive or for black music to survive but basically the idea of a major label adopting that's what we were. A smaller black label. Yeah, that's what Philly International was. So was it someone who, because by that point in 72,

even though there was backstabbers and things were starting to heat up, but who was the person that, you know, who was inspired to write the Harvard report that really argued for you guys to have a deal with Clive Davis? Or he read this Harvard report and it's like, you know, you're right. I should do this. I think they sponsored it. Oh, okay.

A lot of the record company sponsored it because we were there at CBS like in 1969, 70 is when we was making our deal. Right. And it was kind of like it shadowed what we were doing with CBS because there was a time when we would do albums

and we would have an album covers and we would put the like an artist, like Jerry Butler or somebody like that on the front cover. And their sales department was saying, no, we can't sell it. They can sell it because it was a black face on it. Race records. Race records. This is where they were coming from.

And so when we got into it, it was a little more music became a little more of a protest instrument. Right. You know? And the industry just opened up. It opened up wide. Like in Texas, there was a rack job at there. Rack Chavez is a guy who's got a warehouse,

and he'll buy 100,000 albums and distribute him himself. But you'll see him. This guy, his name was Lieberman. And he wouldn't really sell that many albums, black albums in the beginning. But radio changed from AM to FM. It reached more people.

The whole marketplace just opened up. So a Lieberman, like an earth-winning fire album these albums were not just hit R&B albums these were hit pop, everything else you can think of you can see it today in your commercials and everything

they're using that music because that music crosses all those generations and so I think that's what really had the industry rolling is that the times were changing okay you know knowing that you guys initially went to

Ahmed Erdogan and Wexler at Atlantic First for Philly International. Have you guys spoken to them since? Have they expressed any regret on not

taking the deal? Well, you know, all of them are gone. Ahmed and Jerry Wexler and Neshoe, Erdigan. I think they chose to work with stats. rather than us. And that wasn't a bad move.

I mean, Stacks, but Stacks was not like Philly International. I worked with them a few times, you know. Yeah, there's definitely some sound of them. Wilsen-Bickett. Archibald, yeah, Wilson Pickett's record. Don't let the Green Rass fool you. Yeah. That was a heck of a session.

Didn't the Romeos put a record out on ACO? There you go, you know what I mean? It's hard to find the right girl. And eight days a week. Eight days a week. Eight days a week. That was before the Beatles. too bad or work.

2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress.

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I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform

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This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the Mike Coutura Podcast Network available on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So it should be noted that what you really brought to the game of music is just a level of sheen and cleanness. That was right for FM radio at the time. It wasn't

it wasn't gutpocket back porch sounding, which I love that sound too. But this is definitely you know in the era of I know there's there's always a debate in the era or in the era of who holds the crown as far as I know that Isaac Hay started working with orchestration and yeah and Barry White as well but what was it about the the sound of less orchestras that told you this is what we need in in our music well during that time Tommy Bell was, he was evolving to a great arranger. He loved Burr-Pack Watt, by the way.

Oh, wow. And Bobby Martin. It just seemed like everybody wanted to, all of the arrangers, they wanted to work with violets. Orchestrations, let me put it like that. It's so much different from what it is today. Today, I guess, the fewer the instruments, the better it is. Well, you do get a better presence when you have fewer instruments.

you know. But I think that's just, well, in a simple way to say it, is that that's what we heard in the music, you know. Oh, I was going to say, yeah, because when you guys are cutting a basic track, the strings aren't done yet. No. So how do you, how hard is it for you to have faith that,

all right, great example. Something as bare as the OJ's, how can you call me brother? Yeah. Which is a very basic rhythm track but really depends on the horn or orchestration and that sort of thing.

So is it that you have that much faith in Bobby or Norman Harris was also a good arranger for you guys as well? It was good. That you just like, I know once I feed them this then they're going to really put the impact in... No, what we would do

is we take a cassette player we get a small cassette of the session with the rhythm and the voices on it and I'd sit down with an huff, we'd sit down with Bobby Martin and then we would hum the parts to them. This is what we want the trumpets to play.

This is what we want, the trombones to play. This is what we want the strings to play. And believe it or not, I'm going to tell you something. Even today, I can still remember all those arrangements. In my head, I mean, it's like the brainwashed me almost. You know, you can still hear it all. And it was unbelievable.

Plus, too, if you listen to the tracks, a lot of the stuff happens when you write the song. The arrangement is in the song, you know. And so where Huff used to play on every session, and between him and myself and Tom Bell and like you said, Norman Harris, Norman Harris, he did an excellent job because he couldn't even arrange at first. You're talking about guys who couldn't even write music when we first started. Nah, these guys are, between Roland and Bobby Martin,

they probably taught all those guys how to write and arrange music. And also Vince Montana. Oh, yeah. It was great. And, um, but these are like 60 pieces, right? Oh, we had, 60 pieces? We would have at least eight or nine rhythm people. Okay.

We would have, um, I'd say at least 10 between trumpet's horns and brass. But see, we would double things. So it would sound sneaky. I thought it was Schubert time like, right? Right. guys record it. No, no. We would double stuff and triple stuff at sometimes to really get that fullness because, you know, you mentioned something a moment ago. When the industry moved from mono to stereo was a big difference. When it moved from AM to FM, it was a big change, it was a big

change because you got to look at the mixing process became totally different. Joe Charger was an excellent engineer. I was going to say, talk about Joe Tarsia and how did you totally trust your mixing in his hands? Was it a thing where you guys had to micromanage and be over his shoulders or he knew exactly what to do?

We had to be there with him. We had to be there with him because you know what? Sometimes we would mix him to 1, 2, 3 o'clock in the morning, right? The next day I come in and Joe, done, did something to it. during the night.

I said, Joe, why did you pull that piano down like that? He said, but you can hear that. Because you can hear stuff when it means something to you. Right. Okay. And so Joe was, he was excellent, man. He was, he's a good, he was a good team player. We had a great team.

That's what happened with us. Speaking of the team, I was going to ask you, because we were talking about this before, we started recording about Larry Gold since we're in the house that he built in the studio. He's in the back somewhere. Okay, yeah. But I was trying to figure out.

So back in these days, was he just like a session player? Because now, of course, he's a string arranger. Oh, he's great. But he was on all the sessions. Him and Don Rinaldo and a lot of the guys from the old Uptown Theater were part of our band. So the Uptown Theater had a house orchestra or a house band for... Oh, yeah, Sam Reed. Really?

Sam Reed was the house band. And he had... Most of those guys are passed now, but the Uptown was, I used to go get chicken sandwiches for them guys. Over at Pearls, you know. And the Uptown Theater was, that was a nest too for some great, great artists. You don't have places like the Uptown and places like that anymore to develop new young people, you know, to get them a chance to some reasonable price to get

in a place or whatever, you know. Is that what you plan on doing the mirror when you fix up the uptown? You're going to bring it back to that. Well, since you put me on the spot, sure. Yeah, okay. I didn't even know if he knew that you was in. I was really, no, it's a dream of mine to bring it back. You know, we were talking to some people the other day, me and Caliph,

and they were talking about the uptown, you know, doing something there. We have to. Like, it's too much history there. Like, the Apollo's still thriving in D.C. Howard Theater. Howard Theater is just coming back. You know what you need, though, with the uptown. Money.

The same thing, yeah, money. You need the same thing that Apollo has. You need somebody to underwrite it. Like a Coca-Cola, I think, it takes care of Apollo. And it's not a- Ron Perlman, too. Yeah. I need to know more billionaires.

Ron Perlman, is that the guy from Philly? You're talking about? No, no, Ron Perlman's from. Prolman's a very weird billionaire. He owns like... Oh, he was a Revlon, wasn't he too? Yeah, but he has a lot of companies, but things you don't think about, like, you know, like...

The person that makes cotton balls or for Q-tips or... Yeah, that's a good one. He owns rubber band companies, like, things that you don't think that people need their, everything. They make a lot of money. The guy that owns duct tape. Like, that's the type of business at Ron Perolman. That's wonderful.

That's a smart man right there. Yeah. So the sound, I've always been curious about the sound of Philadelphia, because along with that sophistication, you know, I would say that, you know, part of the charm of Motown was like, it was part church done by jazz musicians who thought they were above playing pop music or whatever. But, and with Stacks, their sound was all the way, you know, Look at a house.

Right. Look at her house. But yet, just the sound, were you giving your input as far as like you wanted these drums to sound dead? Only bring this up because one, I mean like, what, my first five, six records at Sigma. And one day, Joe Tarsi is in the hallway. And he knew I was struggling with the drum part. And I couldn't get it right.

like I was wasting all this duct tape on my snare, whatever. And he says, hey, hang on, I'll be right back. And he runs upstairs. He comes down with this blue blanket. And he's like, this is the blue blanket that I would put it on top of, you know, on top of Earl's drums and everything, whatever. And he's like, this is the sound you're looking for. And he, like, went to the board and did us a solid in 10 minutes. And I got the sound I wanted.

But it was so radical to see it at the time. Was it, how did you guys construct this sound? Like it's such a, like the drums are dead, but it's more live. And plus with Earl Young being the proprietor of disco, like how did you guys discover, was it just accidentally discovering like, oh, people like dancing to this type of music? You know, I used to always say like the drums,

there's two parts to the drums. It's the bass drum. That bass drum is very important. And also the snare and the symbols and the so forth and the sock symbol. That sock symbol sound that we came up with. That come from the house of prayer. That's like a tambourine.

Yeah, like tambourines, you know what I mean? So it was a mix between all of that, you know? And we did it so much. The musicians would say, man, please listen. don't play that no more. You got to play it because that's what gave us. That's keeping the food roll. Yeah, keep it going.

And then, and then really the drums and the bass was like a pair. You know, that bass, the bass and the bass drum, they walked together. One question I always wanted to know. When you're doing basic cutting tracks for ballots, let's say, okay. let's say Harold Melvin in blue notes, be for real. Yeah. Where, for you hip-hop fans,

the song that Ghostface uses to argue over. No, no. Well, he uses Be For Real with, can I talk to you? Like, the Teddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My whole point is that it is, is, are you guys saying that, okay, we know that we want Teddy

to have two minutes and 47 seconds of dialogue right before the first course starts. Like, how do you guys map out without Teddy and the group being there to have a compelling acting performance? You know, the part of the song when the song's over and then you got to talk your trash? You got to talk it. Oh, baby. You know, I need you.

And this goes on. But the thing is, is that the arrangement is so perfectly, it's so timed that. I always wondered, do you map ahead of time? Like, okay, well, Teddy's going to talk for two minutes and 47 seconds. And then is he going on his own? Are you writing out his dialogue when? I know what happens with those kind of things is that we had a lot of rehearsals. Before these artists go into the studio, we would rehearse.

I mean, with the OJs, Huff and I used to rehearse them days. Really? Days before we go into the studio. You know, we cut the tracks, and then we rehearse them again with the tracks, because it would be different. It's one thing rehearsing on the piano, you know, with me, you know. But then when you cut the track is totally different.

You got different figures and everything, but, like, I think the rehearsals were the key to everything that we did, you know. So for, like, Sunshine, OJ's, which is 10 minutes, you're saying that even in rehearsal Eddie Lavert is going balls to the wall that hard with his atlives

No, there's a certain part of it that the artist basically It's like Bunny Sigler wrote Sunshine Okay And he helped to produce it He and was another guy that was with him Phil hurt I think Phil's thing was

And so they did rehearse the OJs Because the OJs used to come in Philadelphia here to record. They would stay here for a month. Okay. For a whole month. The first week, we would do nothing

but send them around to each little room. We had rooms. Fat and the White Ad had a room. Bunny Sligger. Phil, I mean, Sherman Marshall, who wrote for, then came youth with Dionne Warwick and all that.

Right. And so everybody had their own rooms. So Huff and I would have about eight or nine songs for them. Bunny Sigler would have five or six songs for them. And then we put them all on a cassette tape and then we listened to them and figure out which ones we were going

to cut. That would be the second phase. Now once we start cutting the tracks, it could be 15, 16 tracks that we cut all total. And the OJ's say for example, like a song like I Love Music, right?

It took all night to get those background parts together. What? No proposals. All night. Yeah, this this was a whole different thing. Yeah, you got to do it straight. And the editing aspect of all this stuff here was just crazy. Because you have cutting tape.

You got cutting tape all over the floor. You know, so Huff, and he played the keyboards, and the keyboards was essential to find it out how many bars to... I mean, we talked about bars. We weren't really counting bars and stuff like that, you know? and rehearsing, like Huff says me now, he said, man, my back hurts. I said, I guess so, man, you've been rocking on that piano

50, 50 years. No, we had a great team of people working together, and I think that, you know, when you got people like Dexter when you play... To oneself, yeah. I mean, Dexter is... To me, I thought he was like Quincy Jones, to be honest with you.

You know, and I used to always tell him, I said, you know, you should go out and get with Quincy Jones. because this guy had that kind of talent in my view, you know. And in 2019, the kids should know Pop Wanzel. Yeah. Which is wonderful. Yes, it is. He used to be walking around the floor all the time, which is great, you know.

Between you and Huff, you mentioned that he would be, you know, on the piano. Were you more of like the lyric writer or did you also write music as well? No, I really didn't. Look, I basically was lyrics. Okay. you know, and concepts. And I'll write lyrics sometimes, too. And I play, like me and Mrs. Jones and stuff like that.

I got about six chords. I can play on the few chords. I had a few chords on the guitar. And then... So they come with the music first and bring it to you, or you're there at the same time? No, when you say, for example, in Fat and the Whitehead, who were...

How do they work together? They were just like me and Huff. They were excellent. They had Victor Karstaffin that worked with them. He was a keyboard player. Okay. And then you had Tom Bell and Linda Creed. Linda Creed was an unbelievable lyricist.

You know, to be by golly wild. People make the world go around. And yeah, people make the world go around. How were you... Okay, so of course, a majority of the stuff is done under the Philly International umbrella. Right. But for some of those projects that wanted that Philly Sound, Eddie Kendrick's, he's a friend, or then Kim U with the down work and the spinners, or even the spinners themselves, like, how were you able to, were they contractually bound to you guys first and you gave permission to, okay. No, no, what happened with that?

Just take the spinners, for example. And Tom Bell, Tom Bell was like an independent producer. they had an independent production because there were people like the spinners, Dionne Warwick, Johnny Mathis, and all these people. Music was you? I mean, was it associated with you?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we were all working together. Because where we all linked up at was in publishing. See, with the songs. Mighty three. Mighty three. Mighty three. Yeah, with publishing and also with the cross-pollination

of McFadden and Whitehaired, working with Tom. and was different, different people all working together. But when Tom Bell brings in a Johnny Mathis to take, because most of the songs he did with Johnny Mathis had been recorded before that we cut before, so it was a new expansion for us. And that's pretty, because Huff and I,

we didn't really do a lot of outside production things with people on different labels. Earlier in the game we did, you know, like Archie Bell and, Wilson Pickett, which you mentioned, which was fun. But after we got to a certain point, our whole thing was to build Philly International because what happened with that would be

is more of a, first of all, we had a strong association with CBS and we were strong as anybody with the international side of the industry. And then I would think that that we had the same music, We had a great team in Philly and a great team in New York, Ron Alexa Berg and Clive Davis and all these people. We had a good run.

For the life of me, can you please answer this question? Go ahead, brother. Why, why, why? Did you guys not call T-S-O-P Soul Train? Now, you could have just called the song Soul Train. Now, let me tell you what happened. What happened was, all right? Don Cornelius, yeah.

Don, you seen that already? I haven't seen it, but I would think I know where you're going with this story. Don Cannes. I told Don, I said, Don, I said, we're going to call this Soul Train theme. He said, no, I want to keep Soul Train out of it, separate. What? I said, you can't do that, you know. No, we wanted to call it Soul Train, but you just said.

Right. So then what happened when it became such a monster, a monster, monster, monster. It was number one, yeah. All over the world. It was number one everywhere. And the funny part about it is we call it the Sound of Philadelphia. And in parentheses, it was the soul train theme. But he didn't want it to be the soul train or whatever, you know.

Just in case it didn't catch your honor. But, you know, he actually really said that, and they did an interview with him somewhere. and he said that was the dumbest movie ever made. But he was good people, man. You talk about a vehicle for our music. I used to talk to him every week. Every week, he said, okay, who are you going to send out this week? You know what I mean?

So we would always have a place on this show. And that was pretty much the It Show for that particular time. I mean, Soul Train was, was unbelievable. And weren't we just watching some footage where he was actually an advocate for Black Music Month as well? So y'all were all in and your relationship. Yeah, we were real good friends.

Yeah, Black Music Month. That was Diana that was showing us. Yeah, she was showing us the footage. And he was testifying in Congress or on his way somewhere for Black Music Month. Wow. Okay. I'm going to always present this in the worst possible scenario.

Go ahead. So I'm not going to do a gun to your head as I normally do. What is that? No, no, I always give you the ultimatum. Go ahead. Okay. So, between Eddie Levert,

I'm trying to figure out your top five starting squad. Good. Now, in your powerhouse lead singing voice with Eddie Levert and Teddy Pendergrass, I don't know, was Kenny Ebo even in the picture? Was he after ABC, did Ebo join? The blue notes. Did he join the blue notes? After.

And reaching for the, so that was, okay, so he don't count. All right. Yeah. So who is your, who gets the advantage? Eddie Lever, Teddy Pen the Grass, in your powerhouse lead singing voice. This is an easy one for me. Really? Yeah.

Seriously. Yeah. All right, you go first. I say it's Eddie because Teddy's not available right now, unfortunately. Well. Make believe well Let's go to history If we're talking history

I still give it to Eddie I still give it to Eddie too Eddie would be my friend Yeah Because I mean that's Eddie Lavert Bro I don't know Teddy

I've heard Teddy Pendergast singing Teddy is a monster But Eddie oh my God Really? Yeah To me just To me it was more so I don't know

I thought that Eddie was more of He could just emote A song better And like he I don't know I mean Which is saying a lot compared to Teddy, but yeah, my vote will go to Eddie, too.

All right. All right. Let me tell you what I think. See, what else. I like all of them, but I'll tell you this. You're sleeping one guy. Wait, we're missing somebody? No, I'm telling you.

It's Walter Williams. Walter, yeah. Ah, yeah. See, but he's my, my, my, he's my assist. Yeah, yeah, I see where you go. A lot of people. Walter Williams is my best second man ever. A lot of people sleep Walt, see, because

See, Eddie is more of a performing artist. When you think of Eddie, you think of a guy that's hollering and screaming and on the floor. Walter's a singer. But Walter, I remember when I used to give Walter the lyrics, he was excellent, man. He was excellent. He would, just the way I heard him singing it, he would sing it. Wow. So, but I know what you're trying to get after here.

You're talking about who wants. I'm not saying favorites, but. Well, who is? I still say Walter Williams. That's your answer. That's your answer. So when you would do, when you were write the songs, who would sing the demo or the reference tracks for the artist?

Me and Huff. You all sang. Yeah, we sing the Huff. Really? Oh, yeah. So. Was that any time y'all was like, you know what? I might keep this?

Did y'all was to keep for yourself? I used to tell Huff that. Me and Hump say that now. I said, Huff, I said, we should have kept that me and Mrs. Jones. I said, we'd be in Vegas right now. And, yo, me and Mrs. Jones, I want to, like, can we, just the genius of that song, because for years I didn't know. Yeah.

It was about. An affair. Yeah, an affair. But we love an affair. We never thought that. But all I knew was that him and Mrs. Jones had something going on. But they both knew it was wrong, so the wrong didn't. Yeah, I didn't.

It didn't register. But it was much too strong. To let it go. All right, so are a lot of these songs from personal experience or is it just, hey, this is what's going on in life and let me, you know, I would think like, okay, someone out there needs a song about this specific situation and I'm the funnel that's going to bring it to life.

Like, how does a song like that come to be and someone in your life is not looking at you? side I like. Right, right. What you mean, me? Full disclaimer. Deanna was in here before you, so there was a couple songs she liked to claim. Well, wait. Have you ever written a song that someone's like,

that's about a minute? Say, that sounds like us, right? Well, yeah, you know, what happened to me as a song writer in, Huff, before we were write songs, Huff and I, we were sitting in a room, just like this is here, like we're doing it and talk. and just talk and laugh and talk about the fantasy. The fantasy was a bar that he was right across the street from us and everybody used to be here, the fantasy, you know, Miss Loretta.

And we used to go there to eat, it was on Broad Street. On Broad Street. Yeah. Unbelievable. I went there once in my life. Oh, it was great. But anyway, so what we would do is we could go into fantasy, right? And all you got to do is sit there and you see all these people.

And you make up stuff. You make up stories. You make up stories. You make up stories. Look at that guy over there, man. He's with that young girl, man. That's not his wife or whatever. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And then we go back and sit at the piano and come up with stories about... How often did... I mean, because at this time, I mean, you got Eddie, you got Teddy. You know, you have all these great singers who... Lou Rose. What about that? Who I imagine had several women.

Unbelievable. How much of you? How much of their lives would you look at and say like, damn, Teddy's going through this and then take it and write about it? I don't know. I mean, it was so much to write about. So much to write about. And we were having so much fun.

And then, you know, you put a formula together. Our formula was, because at that time, albums were sold. The albums were selling. And so you take our artists like Teddy Pendergrass, who was so versatile, number one. And as a matter of fact, I heard one of his songs today, My Latelyest Greatest and Raised. And I was listening to, I said, wow, what a record.

You know what I mean? Just all the parts of it, you know what I mean? How many hours would it take for you to know that you have a great Teddy performance? Like, is there a code word? Like, take it home. You know what to do? No.

Let me tell you this guy, Telly Pendergrass, we will rehearse him too. Wow. You weren't scared to waste a performance? No, we'll rehearse him. Because, see, the theory we had was when you're recording, we don't want you standing in there reading on the paper. We wanted to come from inside. We wanted to come from here. Forget that.

You got to know these songs, you see, because it's better. That makes sense. It makes a whole lot of sense. It's a better performance. And so Teddy Pendergrass was the worst guy, you know, because he'd always lose the papers. You know, but you had to do it. You got to learn it, Teddy.

You got to learn these lyrics and you've got to go in there and you got to sing them. Well, okay, so speaking of the latest greatest, I'm trying to figure, is that the song that Teddy has went the most at the end? Yeah, the gorilla. That's true, man. How do you pull that out of...

I didn't do that. He did that himself. And there was no... No, I wanted more. That was unusual for him to even do that. But that song made him do that. Really? And then the background was so sweet with Cecil Wormack,

Leon Huff, and myself was the three of us. Sing on that. It was Cecil Womack, Khalif, I was saying. So we were still at Romeo's. We still background and the singing and everything. So it was fun, you know what I mean? To be in the studio and sing background. We did background for stylistics.

We was on all of that stuff. And we was on, if you don't know me by now, we sang the background on that. Really? Okay. You know what? I always wanted to know, could you name three acts that were close but no cigar acts that could have been on Philly International or even produced by you?

Like, did you guys have a chance to, I always wanted to know if you guys ever had a chance to at least talk with the Dells. I know that Charles Stephanie was with them for a long time. Then when he passed away, they were without a producer. Came to Philly. They did? Yeah, we did the album with them. When?

What year was that? Vidal's came, I salute you, 1992. I salute you, yeah. What was it? Was Marvin Jr. still in the farm form? He was still in there. And you know what? We got stuff in on, in the can on them.

And because they did a version of Ave Maria. Say what? I'm telling, no, we was just like in the studio and we was just all talking and everything. And then all of a sudden they started singing. and Ave Maria. And we had the mic on and everything. And, man, I'll tell you,

it was beautiful. The Dell's doing Ave Maria. The Del's doing Ave Maria. They could do that. They have a really weird version of, you are my sunshine. Who, the Del's? Which I'd never, they did it in minor.

Like, you know, it's supposed to be the... Right, it's supposed to be a happy. So imagine. Who did that? The Del's, yeah. Charles Stephanie and the Del's did, like, a minor version. It's like the darkest version, the most soulful darkest version of You Are My Sunshine.

He was talented. Charles Stephanie. Yeah. Excellent. So, but what three acts did you have that you were close but no cigars? Like came to Philly and, yeah, let's work together and then it just didn't happen. Well, Earth War and fires won. What?

This was years and years. Like, we were first getting started, you know. And we had a deal with. chest checker and we had a management company called huga huga hugga huff and gamble it's called huger huger management okay and earth went and five this is when they had the girl with them i forget a czech good cleave and they came up and we were we were trying to get ourselves together be honest with you and they were trying to get their cells together but then they became monsters and we were at the same label they was with columbia too cbs

well that's one one act like that and I always wanted to cut the temptations always tried and they slipped right through my fingers temptations and um was this during the period that they went to Atlantic

instead yeah okay it's a matter of fact we were bringing we um we had uh David Ruffin Eddie Ken we had them all back together again we did and man it just didn't work out

it didn't work out it didn't work out and oldest, me and oldest always remain good friends, you know. And then, um... Somebody told me to mention Bob Marley, there was an almost Bob Marley thing? Wait, what? Yeah, we were. Thanks, Caleef.

You serious? Yeah, Bob Marley. Bob Marley. He was... Man, that would have been great. Bob was, uh, he was for destiny and purpose, you know what I mean? So he liked what we were doing with music and the messages. that way, because our whole thing was the message in the music, you know.

This post cleaned up the ghetto, right? Yeah, all of this was, and Bob Miley, he was like, when I met with him, he said, man, we can bring people together from all over the world. I said, well, let's do it. Let's get it. And so his manager and lawyer at the time, I think they were trying to get a big money deal, you know what I mean? And we didn't have a whole lot of money.

We had a lot of talent. Procedes. Yeah. Bob would have been. Then Bob got sick. He got sick. This was got to be, I don't know, I guess around 79, 80, somewhere?

In Philly. No. He did City Lights in 81. 81. City lights. Appearance. It was at his last one. Yeah, it was like around that time

where I met with him. That could have been something. Oh, it would have been great. As a matter of fact, when we had the black music, Association, we had Bob Marley and Stevie Wonder, right here in Philadelphia. That was then, Bob Molly and Stevie Wonder was the entertainment for the Black Music Association. Wow.

Unbelievable. Can I mention this? What? Go ahead. No, no, no, no. It's, it's, it's, okay, so for some reason, are you guys familiar with the seven, how many thousands of reals came from Sigma? you said seven yeah like over seven

okay so when Sigma imploded a lot of these rules were just about to go in the trash like it was going to go to storage and that didn't happen so basically Drexel University

wound up with thousands and thousands and thousands of reels so there is a week that Stevie Wonder spent in Philadelphia in which I don't know the particular date

on the call sheet, but he's at Sigma. Demoing what will become, I love you too much. That was on in Square Circle. Yeah. I think that the real date, was it 7980 or something? Yeah. So there's about there's about

two weeks worth of Philadelphia Sigma Reels of Stevie Wonder, recutting a seed's a star, and like five or six other songs. But one song is actually with Al Green, him giving it to Al Green. It's like a demo, but it's good enough for me to steal on DJ.

Hey, listen, he used to be here all the time, Stevie. Really? Yeah, he would fall asleep on the couch. He would come to the studio. I mean, unannounced, everything, just... That sounds like Stevie. It was great. to show up.

You're like, hey. Stevie Wonder. Not the first time. Can we rewind just a little bit? Yeah, I know, yeah. We skipped. Big. We skipped a couple of things.

Two of my favorite songs that have the Gamble and Huff name one. We've completely glossed over. We didn't. We just, I'm trying to turn the car back too. Oh, never mind. I was about to go back to Richard Barrett so we can cover three degrees, but go ahead.

Oh, well, I was going back to the soul survivors and express weight of your heart. Wow. Which I remember, I was probably like six or seven years old in my bedroom. Somehow that record had gotten into my room. And it stayed on my little Fisher Price turntable for like three weeks. Like I played that record over and over. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, but it was on Gamble Records, which predated Philadelphia International. Oh, yeah. So can you talk about that early label experience and what that was like in the transition into Philly International? Well, Gamble Records was, my partner there was Benny Crash. You remember Crash Brothers clothing store? Yes. That was my partner then. What?

Benny Crass. That loud guy? Crash Brothers. If you didn't buy your clothes from Crash Brothers, you've been robbed. Yes. Oh, wow. He's, no New Yorker's here. He, he's, yes, you probably paid too much.

It's kind of like the, he was a crazy. He was a crazy, crazy. any type of guy. Okay. But Crash Brothers, Grass Brothers, like, he was your partner? He was my partner. Benny said, if you gotta go, go in a Crash Brothers suit. He was in a casket.

Benny was great. He taught me a lot, man. He really did. And he loved music. He liked to sing himself. So one day I was in there, all of us used to buy clothes for stage and stuff like that. And he said, you know, Kenny, I want to make a record.

He said, could you and your band work with me? I said, yeah, we'll work with you. I said, well, I said, I got some groups that I'm working with. I said, I need you to help me out with him. So we made a deal. He became my partner, and the groups. He had, his songs was called, his group was called the Knights and Arthur. Was the name of his group.

And we cut that. It was good. And he had one son. song that Curtis Mayfield took was called Man O Man Man oh man. Have you been to Spain? The Young Gizi sample. There you go.

He wrote, man oh man. Man oh man, he wrote it. Cute. Unbelievable. I got to bring it. I wasn't going to deal it, but I got to read it back. What is that? When someone drops a bomb.

I just got it. The Crash Brothers man, he wrote Man O Man. Man. Benny Crass, that's right. There's a key vital scene in Dead Presidents' movie when that comes on, which I'm never, ever going to hear that song. I got to tell his daughter. Ain't that something? That's crazy.

Benny Crass. Man, oh, man. Yeah. Oh, man. That's crazy. Yeah, so Philly International was incoming, you know. So me and Huff, we were working with the entree. Routers. Cowboys or girls.

Cowboys the girls came out of that. That was the other song I was gonna bring up. Cowboys the girls. Oh, I always love my mom. Mm-hmm. That was later. Yeah, much later. That was later.

And let me think, we had a lot of little groups. Music makers. United. Yeah. That was another one that stayed in my room quite a bit too. The music makers, we also did, we did something else with them that I really like. It was instrumental.

I think it was I'm gonna make you love me. that we did on them. But I think that from that experience, we had some girls from Camden called the Swans, the Baby Dolls, the Sammy Sevens, everybody due to crossfire. I mean, we were doing all kinds of stuff, man. You're making me really think my brain is going deep in my head.

Thinking of those days, you know, because you had, like he was saying a moment ago, He had so many record companies in Philly. And it was hard for me enough to get in there. You know what I mean? Richard Barrett, I know, who started the three degrees. Three degrees. How did, were you guys involved at all involved at,

back when they were on the, I forget what label they were on before they came to Philly International? I don't even know what label they were on back then. Park, what, let me think. Swan Records. Swine Records. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Huff was working with him then.

Okay. Huff was working with. I never worked with them until they came to Philly International. I love working with them because they were tremendous harmony. Their harmony was really tight. Okay. And Richard, Richard was extremely talented. What was his role in the group?

Was he their manager? He was their manager and their conductor. I mean, he was, he's the one that made him, to be honest with you. Right, okay. He taught them everything, you know, and they were very disciplined at three degrees. Their stage performance was unbelievable. Whose idea was it, I guess it's no coincidence of all the live records cut in London, I guess when Philly International went on tour?

because I know the OJs cut their album in London and the intruders and Billy Paul and Billy Paul in the three degrees so was it just like were they all at this one venue

all at one venue? I never knew if it was like separate times no it made sense to it's got everything at one time and it was great oh okay Billy Paul

I guess we should also mention the Jackson I mean yeah oh the Jackson yeah I wanted to ask you just about your work with them because I read in an interview once. I think it was you that recognized that they were ready to produce themselves.

And I just wanted to know what was it that you, one, what were those sessions like just working with them? And two, how can you tell as a producer when someone is ready to produce themselves? You can just feel it. You can feel like they got a pretty good sense of who they are. No, they had Michael Jackson working with him. I used to ask him all the time. I said, how do you hear yourself?

So he used to go to the piano. He played the piano a little bit. And he said, well, let me try something when we went to overdub his voice. And that was the first time that I saw an artist, double their voice, triple their voice. He had all kinds of little tricks and stuff that he was doing. So many way to go?

Yeah. I used to think that was one take. and thought it's humanly impossible. It's impossible. To sing that. Yeah. So he was showing me, I said, go ahead. You know what I mean?

I think him and Tito, be honest with you. Tito was the musician. And so I think him and Tito was really, really talented. And the other guys, like Jackie and Marlon, and, you know, what I tried to do was bring it out of them because they had been beat down so much

where Michael just became, just such a giant, you know what I mean, that they were scared to say anything. Come on. Marlin was a tremendous dancer. Oh, my God, yeah, still. Unbelievable. In fact, I talked to him the other day, and they've been through a lot.

They've been through a lot, that group. And I'll say that my, it's weird because Sony just re-released the Jackson's and going places. like a month ago, like remastered. Oh, really? Going places is still a personal favor of mine. I don't, I mean, I just have sentimental attachment to it

because I was seven at the time. And I used to see them. I never knew that Philly International was next to my school. I went to perform an art school on Broad Street. Broad Street. 313, you guys were 309. 309. And never knew that.

How long were you guys at 309? Oh, my God. We went to 309. About, who was it, about 1970, 1969, 70. Oh, y'all were always there. Can you tell that story? We were across the street at the Schubert. At the Schubert, okay.

On the sixth floor. Okay. Can you tell the story how you had to have somebody else come in and look at the building? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What happened? Well, they wouldn't sell the building to us at first. Oh, of course.

So what we did is we got a lawyer who name was Eric. at Cromfell got him to go to the bank and everything to make the settlement and everything. And then when it got down to the point where they needed us to sign, we'd come over and sign the papers because, see, it was hard. See, they were right. Yeah, because that's exactly what it was, too. They looked at, well, it's hard. Even today it's hard for African-American people to get a building.

A building, credit, you know. But it was good move. It was a good, Alan Klein. As a matter of fact, Alan. Klein was the owner. Really? Of the building. Yeah. Alan Klein? Alan Klein, the guy who had the Beatles?

Yeah, APCO. And even with your stature at that time, they just felt like, nope. Bad sell? I'm telling you. I mean, what they did to us was you got to get financed and we couldn't pay for the building.

I wish we could have, but you have to get mortgages. Because the thing of it is, too, is that that building, uh, The tragedy of it is when we speak of that building, is that there was an arson. The guy who put that place on fire, that was no way for that building to go.

That was terrible. Yeah, rest in peace, 309. Yeah, it was a lot there. I'll tell you, a whole lot. Now, is it a parking lot? No, well. It's about to be a hotel. Yeah, it's going to be condominiums.

And no hotel this time, though. Yeah, it's good. Did you put the Jackson's through the same rehearsal situation that you put through the other artists? Exactly. Everybody, everybody goes through the same thing. Right, that's true, too. Yeah, and they were great.

I mean, and their father, man, this guy was, he was a wonderful dude, man. You don't hear that a lot. No, he was. It was great. Here's a random question about the Jackson's. Did you miss Jermaine's president? It would have been good if he was there. Let me put it like that.

He also came to Philly. There's four songs. He also cut some tracks at Sigma in 1976. I don't know if it's Tom Bell, but there was a point where Jermaine Jackson came to Philly? Yes. It's what's good for the gander. Norman Harris.

Norman Harris, it sounds like. That sounds just like it. So just help me understand. So if someone comes into Sigma and leaves with a product that still has the Gamble and Huff DNA, like you guys don't wipe the board, you guys don't like, you can't use our microphones or. Because even for that song, which technically has nothing to do with Gamble and Huff. True. It's gambling.

You can hear it. Yeah. So it's like how do you... How do you protect the secret sauce? But you know... But then like David Bowie came to Philly. His record sound like... So how do you...

Do you feel some sort of... Did you ever feel a sort of way when an artist comes to Sigma and still uses your board, you're mixing, your resources... And the rhythm section. The rhythm section. Yes.

See, that's what made it. But you know what I used to think? you know, it's enough for everybody, you know what I mean? And, you know, that was a good hustle they had, you know, Joe Targe, you know. A good hustle. It was. It was a good hustle because everybody wanted that sound. B.B. King was there.

You're right. Like David Bowie was there. And who was else. Elton John came over. But everybody was grabbing, trying to grab their little piece or whatever. I never felt like that. Without coming to the water well? Because, see, the bottom line of it was, it was this.

is that it's not to try to make that little bit of money from a session, is to make a classic product. Because then you really got something. And I used to tell them, I said, you know what? I said, you can't get around it. You can't get around hard work, and you can't get around having great songs. And if you got, if you're just going in there

and you're just going to throw some people together and you're going to do a record, it almost sounds like what they come in there for, you're wasting the whole thing. And everybody was trying to get their little piece. Everybody, everybody, if the hands was itching, they wanted to get money, they wanted to get money because I even told Tommy Bell,

even with Elton John, it would have been great if we could have all worked on Elton John together. You know? But, you know, who knows? Who knows what would have happened? Who just, I'm sorry. I'm just going to ask to any of those artists ever circle back to you with?

No, not really. I mean, even with conversation. No. I wouldn't even, I wouldn't do nothing with them. I mean, we had our hands full, believe me. But who decides the division of labor? Like, if some artist has only the second week of April to come to Philly to do something and you're not available, are you saying, okay, well, take them to Dexter?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, are you the person that throws the ball and decides who goes where or? Not really. I mean, because we generally work it out because the first part of the work is on us, is on me and Huff and McFad and Whitehead, Dexter and Cynthia. Cynthia Biggs was great also, too. She used to write with Dexter and Charlie Boy and Bruce Halls. You know, we had a little group that we work with.

And we would, the first thing that we would have to do is get the songs. Do we have the songs that we need before we bring these guys in here? And if we got the songs, and we all sit around and listen to the songs, and we say, well, we got some songs. Let's bring them in.

Then we map out with their tour people, like with the OJs or Al Melvin Blunas, whoever, or Teddy. Say, okay, we need them for, 10 days then they can go away for a week and come back and give us another 10 days

and they would schedule and then we'd schedule a release dates photos for the album everything would be set up be set up so that so that it's not really it's not an inconvenience to anybody the way we was recording

why did you not why but what was the inspiration behind you doing, you would always do these paragraphs of whatever the concept of the record was. Line of notes. Yeah, oh yeah. Kind of like, I forgot. You did the line.

Yeah, I don't know why I started doing that. I love that, man. That really got me obsessed with liner notes. Because you know what? I used to write about what the theme of the album was, you know. Would you name it sometimes the album? Tell me it's called Ship O'Hoy. Yeah, I used to say stuff on it.

And who had, who was I signing Shippahoy to it? Yeah, he's got him over there. Where's that album at? See, I just signed it for it. Let me see that. So was Shippahoy your concept and they were with it? Because this is pre-roots. Like nobody was really dealing with the slave trade and...

Oh, yeah, this was something here. Yeah. Of it. Shipahoy. Yeah. Yeah, this was something. It was. Yeah, this was something because, you know what?

This is around the time of the whole Alex Hale. and the roots and all that stuff was going on. I said, there's no music about it. You know, so we did this album here. It's a song that goes with this here, too. We never got a chance to do. Speaking of Shipwoy, I got to know. How did you guys wind up with Anthony Jackson?

He used to play with Billy Paul. That base, famous bass line probably of all time. Went in great. He was great. great. Yes. He was excited. I also, Anthony told me he invented the five string bass. I did.

I know that. Did he invent that? Yes. He, there was never a five string base until he came along. And when he customized his base, he'd... I'll tell you one thing. He was great. That day he played he played like, I'm telling you, it was unbelievable.

Did you have that baseline for the love of money or was that? No, he improvised. that in his mind. Yeah, no. We basically had the concept, and he took it and emphasized. I mean, he just took it to another level.

Why don't you play that real quick? The intro. So you said there was a song that goes with that? No, there's... No, his... No, no. He didn't record it. Yeah. Right? You said y'all didn't record it, or y'all

didn't put it on the album? No, it's got to be um... No, on all of these albums, there was... Oh, the message. Yeah. He would write a paragraph. Yeah. You know, that's where. Now I want to know what the paragraphs there.

I guess we had it on it. I'm pretty sure we did. This was important to me. It's the great Anthony Jackson on bass, y'all. No echo right there. You know this, right? It's started from the beginning to get. Was that a Joe Tarsia?

No. Joe said, told me you couldn't do it. I said, man, are you kidding? Now, no way. Try that. Echo back. Dry. Oh, does it go back and forth

throughout the whole song? I never noticed that. No, not through the whole song. It's the intro. Like, I noticed it in the intro button. Yeah. But only that first time. Joe used to tell me, said, you can't do that.

I said, why not? Why can't you put echo on a bass? 2%. That is the number of people. who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts,

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Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Can you speak upon Teddy at the height of his power? and I don't think there's not much emphasis on how powerful he was and where he was headed, where he was headed in his career. But it's unbelievable. And how, how, I mean, starting as a drummer and Harold Melvin the Blue Notes, like, how was that power just contained inside of that unit before you eventually had to bring it out?

Like you always knew that voice was there? Nope, it's a matter of fact, my introduction to Teddy Pendergast, I was out doing something. And Huff called me. And Huff said, Gabble. Because we were always telling Howard Melvin, he needed an lead singer, you know.

How do he take that? That he wasn't, he's like Charlie Brown, not the star of his own. In a Hollywood special? But how is a genius. I mean, this man here, he could take all of us and make us to blue notes. That's the kind of gift he has.

And I used to tell him, because he was my friend, number one, and we're trying to make it. And so the key of it would be is that he had a lot of competition out there. And so to compete, Hal had a softer voice, a real smooth voice, a nice voice.

But you needed that voice that could rock the house. Yeah, you needed a little. the voice that could rock the house. And so, Off called me one day, said, man. He said, Harold got a guy here that plays the drums. He said, but you got to hear this guy. So by the time I got down there to the office, and I heard him, I said,

Huff, that's the guy we've been looking for. How did you break the news to Harold that this guy should sing I miss you? Because we all thought that was Harold Mel. Right. I know it. That's where the problem came in at, is that.

you know, that there was some kind of Hal Melvin and the Blue Notes, and we had Hal Melvin the Blue Notes featuring Teddy Pendergrass. Pendergrass, right. And then we even changed it because Howard was really putting together a fantastic show.

He had, because it could have been howl Melvin and the Blue Notes featuring Teddy Pendergrass and Shirend Page. What was Sharon Page before she was singing in the group? McFadden and Whitehead brought Sharon Page in.

You know, they knew She was from North Philly. And she had, well, her voice is so sweet, man. I hope we can be together soon. That's great. And that was a song that we did with Dusty Springfield. Oh, wow. Years ago, hope we can be together soon.

And how Melvin took Sharon Page and rehearsed her. And when I listened to it, I said, wow, I said, this is good. I said, but you know what? I said, we got to put Teddy on here. So it was how Sharmage and Teddy Pendergrass or put Teddy in on the end. Right, yeah. Which really made it, made it to me, made it nice, you know.

It was kind of hard to argue with success, but I know that that must have caused some sort of conflict with Melvin. I didn't look at it like that. I looked at it. Well, not with that because you got the hits. I was telling them, I said, we're trying to make it, you know. And to me, you'd be like fooling. yourself if you don't try to at least do the best that you can do.

Did he try to attempt to sing these songs himself? He did. He did have a part in him. Oh, I was going to say, you have a version of I Miss You with Harold Velvet singing. I miss you. I don't think so. Oh, okay. I was like, I got to hear.

I don't think. It might be, though, you know, somewhere. Right. The reals, right. Okay. Yeah, but. No. That song was made for Teddy, Pender Grass.

What was the decision to have him leave group and did it cause a conflict of interest like okay you're going to produce us both now or well we could have and that's what i suggested to wait they left in 76 so was that a conflict of interest from them or well they wanted to leave he they wanted they broke the group of a until he left the group right and he came to me he said look i'm leaving harold melvin and uh i can't get paid or whatever the situation was i said well he said can't he said can't stay can i stay here. I said, yeah, he can stay. It's no problem. So then when Harold came in and the house said, well, you know, Teddy left the group. I got me a new singer, you know, I mean,

and I'll stay, but I don't want Teddy over here. I said, well, can't do that. You're going to lose this one. Right. Can't do it. So, uh, and he had a good group because that's when Ebo, I think you were in even David, David Ebo, I think his name was. Kenny might be, but anyway, he was good. but it wasn't like Teddy Pendergrass. Right. The whole thing. And I think that's during the time when wake up everybody came out. And that was pretty much didn't need a background, wake up everybody.

And so we didn't use a background. But that was before the group broke up anyway. Right. Okay. So it wasn't anything. But I loved how Harold Melvin had a lot of talent. and he's the guy who discovered Teddy Pendergrass. So of the classic Philly International records,

I mean, do you consider the classic logo era of Philly International, do you consider Padilla LaBelle to be the end of that sentence? Wow, ain't that something? She's great. I'm in love again. That's a great song, right away. If only you knew, that was like, that's when my first. favorite. My mother played a whole time. Love needing to want you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Patty LaBelle,

she's a classic, you know, and I mean, we start to think of these people, you know, these are all, all good friends. I try to make sure that we had not only make music together, but we also respect one another. And Patty, I've been knowing Patty since we were teenagers. You know, I was really glad to be able to work with her. And, and, really, really. I'm really glad to get the hits that we got with her. We got some stuff on her. And right now in the can that I'm going to get it out. So we're going to start trying to put some of this stuff out.

I want to know what's in the can. Yeah, please. You want to know what's in the can. Yeah. I want to know what's in the can. Where you go up there with me? So are you able to pick of your entire. Did you hear that invite?

Yeah, I was like, You missed it, you know. Yeah. I heard it, but I didn't absorb it. Yeah. I know. We'll talk about that. Yeah, okay.

Of your entire canon, what do you feel? What is the most special to you, the most sentimental, your baby, the song that you written. Can you say that? There's quite a few of them. All right, I'll give you three. What are your three? Well, let's go with family reunion. That's a good one.

Okay. You feel a certain way when you hear that song When those opening notes come in Like it's just warmth all over Yeah, it's great Yeah, that's, that's, I love that record Yeah, that's like The potato salad

Yeah, it's good for you Women, they're in the kitchen Oh, oh, really nice Oh, I forgot That's where they're at It's a real picture Yeah, that's nice for 1976.

What else you got? I think well this for the love of money of course you know that that just you're doing your top earners over there hey

in the last way for the houses on this album here here's a song that we did it's called this air I breathe now this is before all the pollution and all that's ecology right this air I breathe it says don't belong to me. I breathe it in. I take it in and I breathe it out. It just won't stay in my mouth. That's the lyric song. Yeah. Don't call me, brother. That's a good one. People... I love that song. That's a good one. It's

the truth. That is my favorite song. That's the original player-hater call out. Yeah, and I ask a question? Yes. I'm noticing in some of the songwriting credits, sometimes it's Huff Gamble. sometimes it's Gamble Huff. I didn't notice it. Or John Lennon, a Lennon-McCartney situation. I'm not sure did that mean anything. Did that represent anything?

Not to me. I've never even seen that. You see that. Yeah, like I'm the same album. That's something new. Consecutive songs is like that. It might just be a typo. What song is that?

It's nobody could take your place as Huff Gamble. Nobody could ever take your place. Somewhere down the line is Gamble Huff. Same thing. Nobody could ever take your place. That's a good song. Was Lou Rawls you'll never find? Is that one of your top three?

Yeah, that's a good one. I gotta give it to Khalif again. I can't take the credit. Did you ever think a song wasn't going to be a hit and it wound up being a hit? Or vice versa. Three degrees. What?

Which one? When will I see you again? You know, it just hit me that a big part of their noriety was the fact that that song was also a favorite of Prince Charles. Yeah. Oh, wow. Prince Charles was like, that was his, that was his favorite group. That was his TLC.

So he invited them over. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's when he was cheating with Camilla. Well, I see you. This is when he was a teenager. Oh, okay.

But keep talking. He invited them over. He loved them. And then, like, they were in the press. They were like, meet Prince Charles's favorite group, the three degrees. And that's how, like, that helped them a lot. Like, Starr's was the Drake of his day. Night's over Egypt.

Oh, that's on the Jones girls. Yeah, the Jones girls. Wow, the Jones girls, man, you guys are just pulling them out. Nice over Egypt, the iterations of it. That goes back to Dexter Wanzell again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dance turned into romance. The most, the beautiful thing was we had so much competition amongst each other, you know.

And so that makes it better when you got people that you have to compete with. You got to win. So you got to be good. And I listen to songs like Sadie, Jefferson and Simmons. That was a great song, Sadie, you know. And the spinners were, they were excellent. I mean, Felipe, the guy who was the lead single. This guy was unbelievable.

You know, he was, he was this good, almost as a Teddy Pendergrass, you know what I mean, especially in performing like out on stage. This guy would turn a joint out, man. And so unfortunate that he got himself in that situation where he had that heart attack or whatever. But he had a tremendous future. I would even compare him to who had the potential of becoming like a Sam Coo. That's the kind of voice that this guy had. Wow.

Wow. They had some great albums together. I mean, Tommy Bell, I mean, he made some beautiful music with the Spenners. Dionne Ward. And then there's another songwriter that we had with us, Vinnie Barrett. She was great. Vinnie Barrett. What is your favorite obscure P.I.R.?

Probably one of them is OJ is my favorite. person. Good one. That is jam. That's a good one there. Yeah. I like that record. Yours.

Bill. I mentioned it earlier. It's Dexter Wanzelles. You can be what you want to be. Oh, okay. Yeah. I love that one. Lie?

Just ask us not. I did mine. Nice of a reason. Because I know it's not, but that's not a obscure. I know. Some people. It's actually a really big hit.

It was, but I'm just saying, but I'm just saying, it's a opposite of obscure. But no, that's a great song. But I didn't love that song. is still as obscured to some people. Like clean up the ghetto is still obscure to some people, so I'll take that one.

I wasn't familiar with until Daft Punk used Coca-Cola bottle. Everyone birds on. I forgot that was PIR. Yeah. Oh, wow. Damn. Yeah, it was.

Actually, there's three Daft Punk samples off that first Edward Bursa. How do you feel about people sampling your stuff? I think it's great. Ch-chee! I'll take a nice. another house. That's a perfect answer because it basically

recontextualizes it for an entire new generation. There's so much classic music that was sampled via hip hop that I probably wouldn't have heard of. So it just opened my ears to so much more. Oh, that was the Kanye story I was telling earlier when we was on stage and Kanye asked you

could he get some samples for free? Wasn't that beautiful? Yeah. Literally? Literally. He was like, literally Kobe said, what was you like? What was the first thing you would like to say to Mr. Gamble? can I get some samples for free? You serious? I promise you.

What was your response? No. No. Can't do that. That's all yeah. We can work together. Maybe nothing off the top. But something off the back in.

But it's good to work, you know. But Kanye, he's done good. He's done real good. Do you have a faith? How long ago was that? That was like 15. 15 years ago? Wow.

Boy, I'm 10. I mean, it's been a long. Do you have a favorite use of a sample of your song? Oh, man. I don't know, Cleef State did, what did y'all do? What was that thing y'all did? That CD did with Anthony Ellis. Sampology.

Was Biggie Smalls on that? No, but he used some. The Dynasty record, the Jay-Z John. Oh, yeah, Jay-Z used. What more can I say? Well, mine is that singing. Something for nothing. Yo.

That's not what I'm talking about. I was talking about that's another song I'm talking about on the Dynasty album. He used a lot from that. Do you have anything else? Man, I got so many. So, okay, I want to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember, I think I remember this was like 97, 98.

You did an interview with Vi. I want to say. And they played you, they were playing you like some new songs and you were kind of giving your opinion on them. And one of the songs that you really liked was, it was hot at that time, happily ever after by Case. And I remember you, you know, you really liked that song. You were saying, you know, this reminds me as something that, you know, me and we would

would have did back in our day. And I was, and that was one of the times I really, I had even more respect for you because a lot of times the older cats would look at the younger dudes like, nah, that's not real music. But that was a hot record and was a really good song. So when I thought, because Beyonce first doing it. So when I saw you give that process, I was like, okay, he's still on it. You know, he's still in it.

So do you have any artists now that you hear like from a songwriter perspective? And you're like, you know what? This is a really good crafty song. I wish I had ripped that. Well, I think. Now, song-wise, I think what comes in my head right now, is that song about Meet Me in the Middle? The pop song, Why Don't You Just Meet Me in the Middle?

I love you all right now. And Matt Moore. Because right now, y'all don't know it. If I don't hear it in the Uber. I feel so important right now. It's on commercials and stuff. Yeah, it's like a really popular show. I'm still lost.

I'm still lost. At Target, Target. Baby. Why don't you just stay me in the middle? You've heard the song. if you're in the world. It's the I got a feeling of 2017. But still has a, you know.

I thought it was good. I think it's a good, it's real catchy, you know. And that girl was a songwriter first. She just started really, I think, singing. Marin Morris. Yeah, she's on the show. She surprises about. She's on Sesame Street.

She was. I like this girl. Her name is Her. Yeah. Sing her songwriter. What's the other? girl named Cleek. Who?

El-A-Man. El-A-May. Yeah, booed up. Boot up. I like both of them. I like, I like, it's a little bit different, you know what I mean? And their voices are different. He liked John Legend, too.

I love John Legend, yeah. Love it. What did you think of his version of Wake Up? Wake up, everybody. I think he should, it was too many people on it. No shade of mirror. Yeah, I think he should have did it by itself. You know who produced that record, right?

I think so, too. I think so, too. You know who produced that record. record right. Quest. That's why he just threw a pick at me. Yes, exactly. Anyway, did I have a choice in the matter of that? Well, you picked a right song.

In terms of how many people on it, like, did you? Well, I didn't know a common melody were on it, you know. We just, we did the bare tracks and then went on tour and it's like, oh, okay. Came back and it was... Hey. But you know what? Okay. That song's going to be around a long time because of that, because of y'all do it, because

all of your careers is just blooming, just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. It's just going to make more people listen to it. Common got an Oscar now. Yeah. Who's that? Common. Common.

Yeah. It's great. Was he on wake up everything? Uh-huh. Him too. Yeah, a lot of people. What did you think about the? What label was that on?

I don't want to ask about new, what do you think about new stuff? No, no, no, no. It was on epic or it? It was it epic or Columbia. Columbia. Columbia. Yeah. I was just going to ask him what he thought about the reeds.

surgeons of like Philly Soul when you know the roots black lily like when that jill when all that happened what were you thinking oh i loved it i love i love i love the uh the whole black i mean he worked with victu play he worked with victor cook victu play and james poyser who both were in his base yes and keith mcfee also worked in the basement of p i r right yeah i love it man because you know what like i seen james in uh in the train station one day and me and i was sitting there talking, we were waiting for the train. And I said, James, I said, you're really doing good, man. I said, I see you every night.

Like I told him, I see you every night. And you talk about talented people. Like James is a very talented person. I mean, I was telling him, I said, you know, the part that Jimmy Fallon does when he says, thank you. Oh, yeah, the thank you notes. Boy, that's a beautiful melody he's playing there. You know what I mean?

I would cut that. Let's not guess James Poisser up right now. You mean Grammy Award winning James Poison? Yeah. I mean, that is, in my view, that's a great melody. And I'm listening to us in a while. I said, that would be great maybe if you had maybe a key board. A song over it.

You should borrow it and do something with it. Thank you. I'm talking to Mr. Gamble over here. I'm trying to give that song, the blue face, make a hit. Blueface. You don't want to know. Don't go down that. I'm just saying, all the kids are taking your stuff,

so why don't you take some of my arms? I just might do that. Just take it back and finish it. Yeah. Well, you don't need no lyrics to it. It's a melody, you know what I mean? And, you know. But some words could take it to the next place.

Okay. Well, with that said, I would just want to love is the message, MFSV. Oh. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, I was, no, go ahead. Go ahead. No, go ahead.

Are you aware of the, so there's a version, probably like the most famous version. Honestly, the first version of Love is the Message that I haven't even know which version of Love is a message. I've never heard the original. Yeah, because I just know the remix. I just know the remix. So there's a DJ named Danny Krivitt that did a re-edit of Love is the Message. From New York. Yeah.

I've heard it. Okay. What were your thoughts on me? I thought it was great. Okay. I thought, man, because that was the first version I heard. I love it. How did you feel when you found that song was such a huge record in the music?

I loved it. I loved it, man. Like, it's, was it the loft, it was the anthem of the loft. It was the theme of the loft. Yeah, like. And you know what, Mike Tyson told me, he said, man, he said, I used to take that song,

Love is a message, he said, I used to exercise to it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I'll tell you something, you know how I know it's summer in New York. How's that? I always hear somebody driving down the street playing Love is a message, no matter what neighborhood I'm in.

Ain't that something? They could have gone a different way. I know, I'm like, my God. Thank God. But no, like, let's go over ahead. I think I noticed maybe the, I moved to New York in maybe like 2002. I probably noticed that summer, like I first heard somebody driving down the street. And then every summer afterwards, I would notice, like, I'm always hearing somebody blasting love as a message going down the street no matter what neighborhood I'm in.

Ain't that something? Were you, were you guys aware at the impact of? Because based on the times that I see on these records, and you weren't making 12-inch records as of yet, but did you guys have an inkling? Like, okay, the longer you make the song, the more they keep it on it. The better it is.

Yeah. I'm telling you. Let me tell you, we had a fight with CBS when we were with them because the first long Virgin record that we did was The Love I Lost. Mm-hmm, yes. And then we came back. Yeah, this was a good one.

I mean, that was smoking that track. And we told them about the 12 inches. Right. But CBS wanted to have them on a 45. I said, it's not going to work. It's not going to work. You know what I mean? You got to have the 12 inches.

It's got to be the same size as an album. because mastering it, if you try to master for a little 45 RPM. Yeah, the groove going to knock the knee off. Yeah, you wouldn't get the same sound. But, yeah, that, that, but we finally won. And the battle with them on that 12-inch being the long version, 33 and the third. And ain't no stopping this.

now, I think we must have sold like $75,000 in New York alone on the 12-inch. I got one more question. We've got to wrap up. Jocko's rhythm talk. Oh, my God. That's my man. I love Jock. How did that come?

Oh, this is going to be my last song that I play. Right when rapper's delight was red hot, Jock, Jocko Henderson basically is the father of hip-hop that kind of cat. Who's hey, Papa, do, do that, he used to scat in the boot the bat.

And he's a Philly guy? He was a Philly DJ. He was a Philly in New York. Yes. Yeah. So probably a month later after Rappers Delight, rhythm talk comes out.

And at least in Philadelphia, it just dominated. Jocko used to tell me he said, The rap is the thing, Kenny. And he said, I'm, he said, let me go in the studio

and give me this track. So he went in there and did that track. He did an excellent job. I love that. Yes. Over the music. I've heard this. And this is how we're going to fade out.

Yo, Dr. Gamble, thank you for everything. Thank you for everything. I love it, man. I have a phone. For everything. For everything. I love it.

This is beautiful. On behalf of the family I remember this I remember this too Wow And this used to get Unbelievable Dude I copied all these lyrics

And performed it in fourth grade I fend moo goo Do Papa doo Damn dude Wow Wow Good What years is this?

79. It's the same. Wow. November of 79. Oh, it's my part. Joko, the originator of Mumble Rap. Yes. Mumble Rap guys, Jocko, I'm interested.

Anyway, on behalf of everybody on Questlove, Supreme, this, Quest Love, the family. Thank you, Dr. Gamble. I appreciate it. Cleef, shout out the grief. Thank you. Let us go with the next one. Let us go up. I need a hoodie.

I need the T-S-O-P hoodie. Yes, absolutely. We'll see all next time. I'm on Quest Love Supreme. Quartz Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Iheart Radio, visit the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

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