The Questlove Show - Christopher Cross

Episode Date: May 25, 2026

Christopher Cross joins Questlove in Hollywood for a deep musician-to-musician conversation about songwriting, studio craftsmanship, and surviving meteoric success. Cross reveals the true origin of Arthur's Theme (Best That You Can Do) and the outlaw mythology behind Ride Like The Wind, while recalling experiences like seeing Jimi Hendrix live, opening for Led Zeppelin, and singing background vocals with Carl Wilson. He breaks down the making of his classic debut album, his obsession with Steely Dan–level precision, and why his later records still matter deeply to him and his core fans. Along the way, Cross shares rare stories about Brian Wilson, Joni Mitchell, Michael McDonald, and Jimmy Page — plus an unforgettable Ginger Baker milk-and-ulcers story.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Our podcast is called Hey Jonas. We've here since everyone has a podcast, we wanted to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It was the same thing with Slow Hands. The whole answer is not about anything else really, is it?

You know, or taste so good can't be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Everyone sees me as a football player, but before anything else, I'm human. Every single day, I'm still learning how to live with problems, mistakes, relationships, emotions ever since I was born. This isn't a normal podcast. Everything here is spontaneous, real, and genuine, just honest conversations about what it means to be alive.

I'm Javier Tornandez and listen to Learning to Be Human on IHard Radio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The Questlove show is a production of IHeart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Questlove show. I am Questlove and the hits keep happening. Our legendary guest today has made history starting back in 1990. 81, sweeping the Grammys, first time sweeping the big four. That means album, song, record, and, oh, best new artist, of course. He has worked with everyone.

We will get into it. Of course we know, this man needs no introduction, name it, from Michael McDonald to Brian Wilson, to Bert Bacharach, to Peter Allen, Carol. I cannot wait to ask you what that room was like. And my research, I also discovered that you might have. have a ginger baker story to tell. I do. I hope you survived it.

Our guest today and myself appeared in the very enjoyable yacht rock doc, a doc so good that my own producers are a little bit angry at me like, what the hell? But I enjoyed doing that so much. We have met a few times, and one of those times was a bucketless moment for me, recreating the legendary SCTV bit of Rick Moranis doing Michael McDonald as a background singer on The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. We were supposed to do this in New York City, but somehow the stars saw that we get to do this in L.A. So, of course, took that opportunity to welcome the great Christopher Cross to the Questlove Show.

Thank you for doing this for me. Quest's pleasure. Thank you. Honor to be here. Well, first of all, just to look at the... the writing credits for the author theme. Right. This is Bert Bacharach, Carol Barrier, Peter Allen, and yourself.

I always wanted to know which one of you actually came up with the phrase between the moon and New York City. Well, it's pretty funny because Bet Midler made a joke at the Academy Awards about four on a song. What is this? You know, because there were four writers. Right. Well, what happened was I was asked by Iran Pictures to score the movie. And I was like, well, okay, I've never scored a movie. But, you know, that was during my 15 minutes and everything.

Everybody was coming to me with stuff. But then Stephen Gordon, who wrote Arthur, was also a first-time director, so he didn't want everything to be new. So he said, I think we need to find somebody to score it who's got some experience. So they gave it to Backwreck. And Bert was married to Carabar Sager at the time. Right. And so they called me up about, you know, Bert's going to score, but we need a theme,

which would want to write it with us. And, of course, I was under no illusion that, you know, I was the new kid in town. And so, as Don Henley liked to say, and so, you know, they invited me over to the house. I went there about midnight, their house of Beverly Hills, and it was pretty heady. I walked in. They asked you to come at midnight? Well, just whatever it worked out, I got there about midnight at Byrd's house, and I walked in. Of course, there's two Oscars on the mantle already.

So it was intimidating, for sure. But, Sonny, in answer your question, we started working on the music, and then once we get the music kind of settled with Bert and I, Then Carol and I started working on a lyric. And Carol actually stumbled on the realization that she and Peter, Alan, had a song they'd never finished. And it had the line when you get caught up to New York City. And that line actually came. Peter was circling Kennedy and was going to be his partner.

And he was stuck in a hold. And the line popped into his head. So Carol called... When you get caught up to the moon... Because the moon was out of his window on the plane. and he's wanting to land to be with his partner. So Peter said, you know, came up with the line. So Carol calls him on Australia and said,

hey, look, I'm working on this song with Christopher Cross and Bert. And, you know, there's that song we never finished and has that line when you get caught in New York City. And it'd be perfect for what we're doing. Are you cool with us plugging this in? And Peter was very gracious about it. And so that's how it happened. He kind of remotely phoned in the chorus of the song.

And won an Oscar for it. He did. Yeah. Okay. But that's okay. That actually is a way better than, in my mind, I had this whole thing of like, I'm trying to figure out like how to four superpowers, like arm wrestle, some real estate into the song.

Like, did you come with the acoustic guitar? Bert was on piano. I just came, but I had my ideas from when I was originally supposed to do something. And so Bert and I kind of, you know, got the music together. And after that was done, then Bert just sort of played. to accompany us, you know, writing the lyric, Carol had a yellow pad. But, you know, there's a thing, Quest, about counting lines. I learned from Will Jennings, the great songwriter.

One time when I worked with Will, and I was trying to figure out, well, how much credit should I get or you get? And he said, man, I'm not into counting lines. And it was a real piece of wisdom for me. I was just an experience because you don't count lines, man. You just whatever your- does that. I just split in half of you.

Whatever your participation is. So, yeah, I mean, Peter wasn't actually in the room. But when Carol told me the line, we were looking at rushes from the film and I'm like, are you crazy? That's insane. That's like perfect. So yeah, that's how it happened as far as I remember. Wow.

That's great. What is your first musical memory in life? Well, probably, you know, Buddy Holly, Peggy Sue or something or Everly Brothers, possibly. Ray Charles, I can't stop loving you. I mean, these are all singles that I bought for 99 cents back in the day, you know. What was the first? record that you brought with your owe money? Had it be one of those, probably Everly Brothers,

Wake Up Little Suzy, or maybe Buddy Holly, Peggy Sue. Again, I bought, remember, I can't stop a love you, but also bought a lot of weird things like yakety-ac. Oh, the coasters are legendary. Those things. So we used to buy singles, and my sister had one of those little carrying cases with 45, you know. Also, Ricky Nelson was a big one because we watched the Ozzie Harry's show.

So, you know, things were very eclectic then. You know, the charts were all over the place. You had like hello mother, hellifada. And then you had, yeah, so it was a lot different than it is now. Wait, that was a, hello mother, hello father. Here I am from Gagron. That was a big hit. That was an actual song.

See, okay, I feel so dumb now. Well, no, you're the ultimate music. No, that was a single. Okay, so you know, like when something becomes classic, then it becomes a commercial. Right. Like, I didn't know that barefooting wasn't just a spik and span. No, no, no. I knew it was a spik and span commercial because it got.

picked up in commercials. But I mean, you know, I got nieces and nephews that think that, you know, the rap song from Black Sheep's The Choice of Yours, the Driving Hamsters, was just for that commercial. I'm like, no, that was like one of the biggest rap songs of all time. But I didn't know that that was an actual song. I just know it as the Downey commercial. No, and like things like, sorry. There's a single that was out called Stranger on the Shore by this guy, Akker Bilk, who was this Swedish clarinetist or something. And, you know, Cherry, it's a fire theme. All these kinds of things,

radio was so eclectic. It was, in fact, I was done to Jimmy Webb about MacArthur Park because it was seven-half minutes long. And you would never get away with that now. And so it was, I had all kinds of singles, but I think the early exposure was probably, like I said, I'd have to, if I will go back,

Everly Brothers, buddy Halley, Ray Charles, Richie Valens, a big one, you know. You mentioned McArthur Park. You know, I grew up in a chill-bus family. and there was a turnaround in that song. I'm two years old, and my dad was such a tyrant. And this is way before I'm drumming for him. I didn't start drumming for him until I was 11.

But I remember it was like the musical version of, if you ever seen a Bronx tale, when the hell's angels come in and they mess up the bar, in that moment where he's like, and now you can't leave. My dad was like, I will make you motherfuckers do that turnaround until I'm satisfied. And I don't care if it takes all night. And literally, I remember this is the only time I felt like it was a musical punishment for his band.

They had to play that turnaround. Do, the do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Like, at nausea. And I'm in bed. It's like 9 p.m. And they were rehearsed in the living room downstairs. And that loop just. Yeah, it's funny with that tune, you know, because so many people said to me,

what the hell is a song about? Someone left a cake out in the rain. I said, well, look, it's, it's an homage to romance. I mean, the cake is a woman, you know? It's like, hello. Until now, like, I, again, because I was three years old, I literally took everything that he said in that song, like literally. So anytime I see a coconut cake.

Like, Magnolia, like down the street from Fallon, I still get thoughts of a white coconut cake inside a rainstorm. Why are we talking about this all? Well, because I just brought up, you know, how radio was so eclectic then. Like I said, anything went. There was all this stuff. Like I said, from Ray Stevens, you know, things like Alleyoop, all these things. Yeah. So my exposure was pretty broad.

What city were you born? San Antonio, Texas. Okay. You were born in San Antonio. Yeah. Do you remember the first concert you ever went to? To tell the truth, I think it was Herman's Hermits. What years is this? When was this?

Well, it had to be 60s, you know. I was born in 51, so 60s. I saw Herman's Hermits, I saw The Who, Procal Herom, quite a few bands early on. I can't keep track of the order, but certainly Hermes Hermits was one of the early ones, The Who. I saw quite a few times. I saw, you know. The Moon's drum set stay intact? Yeah, they didn't blow it up. that day. And yeah, and then people like, of course, I got to see lots of great stuff, you know,

Hendricks many times, you know, so. Really? Oh, yeah, three times saw Jimmy three times. Pre-84, live records didn't feel the same that it always felt like. And then I discovered once I started investigating that some live records weren't live records at all. Like, oh, that's why it sounds so pristine. They were, you know, just canned.

Or some sound check recordings with overdubs or whatever. But I always wanted to know when you saw a live, okay, Hendricks, for example, were you able to feel the music like that, or did it sound like tinny and far away, like almost the equivalent of like your monitors being on and only your monitors being on? Well, now with Jimmy, because he came to San Antonio when he played in an old theater that had a big velvet curtain, you know, it was closed. And Jimmy was using, I'm a guitar player, so Jimmy was using these big sun amplifiers at the time, like bigger than any. used. He had three of them like this. So the sound would come from the amplified. Yeah, he was the first guy to kind of really

crank it up. And I remember I was in seventh row and I heard, you know, some rumblings behind the stage and I heard this big and it was Jimmy plugging in his guitar, you know. All right. And he hit like a fifth on the guitar and the curtain just. And we were like, oh my God. What it, like Velociraptors back there or something. And then he started Foxy Lady and they opened the curtain. And he was in total green with the hat with the feather. And it was so amazing.

The sound was so incredible that he was like from outer space, man. It was like something you'd never, ever seen. And but so yeah, so in the case of Hendricks, he had a big son. And he couldn't hear Mitch Mitchell for shit. I was going to say, was the sound just coming from the stage or? Mostly from the stage. Well, look at the Beatles at Chase Stadium. You know, they just had like sure columns or Vox columns.

I mean, it was ridiculous compared to. So, yeah. But still, you know, seeing these artists, you know, I'm still thrilled to have gotten to see them, you know, Kareem live and stuff like that at the film were. No, it was incredible. Where's the moment where you saw a concert where you noticed a difference where it's like, whoa, like real speakers that hit you in the stomach. Wow.

Or was it just such a slow, gradual? Actually, I had a little local band called Flash, and we actually got to open for several shows for Zeppelin on their very first tour in San Antonio. Texas had a rule that you had to have a local band on the show for 30 minutes of every show, so we got to open for Zeppelin on their first tour in the States. I was about 19, so 69, 70. It was about the first stuff. Yeah, and they were in a big venue, and they actually had a decent PA system and all that stuff.

So that's probably the first time I saw real production, you know, probably then, yeah. Okay, so you mentioned that you were in, a heart rock group, which, I mean, the irony of it all is what represents you now. But, you know, did playing heavy aggressive rock sort of shape your approach to writing pop melodies now? Like, or... Well, actually, you know, I opened it for Zeppelin. It's just because my manager at the time had a production company, and they brought Zeppelin in, so we just got to be on the show. I wouldn't say we were...

So actually one of my biggest influences at the time was Zappa. So the music was kind of like, you know, a bit progressive. I remember I went Frank and he sort of questioned me about me claiming he was a big influence. And he kind of put me on the griddle. He said, I like your music, but I don't hear the kinship. Can you give me some because I came up for the money, bow tie daddy, all this stuff. Yeah, but he's written a rave song. Like not everything was in 11, 9 meter.

But it was pretty funny with him. So what's interesting about Frank is years later, he asked me to come sit in with him at a show out here and I couldn't. And two weeks later in the mail, I get a cassette and it says Zappa Wind that he played Ride Like the Wind in his show. Really? Yeah. It's a trip. How is his rendition of it? It's fast.

He plays a while with the guitar through the whole thing. And he said, Christopher supposed to come in a night. He couldn't make it. So Brian the Drum Roady will be singing right like the wind. win. And it was all pretty funny. But no, so my music wasn't so much rock, although one of my big things on the internet to miss, I actually subbed for Richie Blackmore and Deep Purple one time, because Richie got sick. And I subbed him. So I, you know, I had long hair. I had hair. And I was influenced by Jeff Beck and rock guitar players and stuff, certainly. But no, so my music

was kind of interesting at that time. I said, I was kind of influenced a lot by Zappa and people like that. But then once I started getting into Brian Wilson and Carl Wilson, and then that's when things really turned. I was going to say, what did pet sounds mean to you when it came out? Like, I know a lot of us have these kind of retroactive responses to it. Like, oh, it was a classic. I always grew up with it. But I know that that was a hard sell for people. Only certain few got it. And people caught on later. But how much does God only knows mean to you as a, Well, I don't argue with McCartney. It's probably the greatest song. But me, somewhere over the rainbows right up there.

But I think, God only knows, certainly the greatest songs ever written. And Carl's my biggest vocal mentor. So, of course, it was very important to me that, you know, because I was so close to Carl. And I kind of emulated Carl growing up. But you've got to realize, again, you're so much younger than me, that sounds. But see, I got exposed to them early on. Like, I remember Brian asking me, what's your favorite song of mine? And I told him it's the Lonely Sea, which is a very obscure tune off an early record.

And Brian kind of dug it. He's like, the lonely sea, yeah, cool, you know. And I said, yeah, I used to sit in the dark room, just listen to that over again. But no, Pet Sounds was revelatory. I mean, obviously the Beatles, you know, that's where Sergeant Pepper came front of everything. So, I mean, it was incredible. In fact, even in surfs up, too, you know, surfs up that record's incredible. I remember Mike McDonald picked me up for dinner one night, and he had Surf's up playing in his car.

And, you know, Mike definitely comes from an R&B place. And I was like, wow, cool. And he said, yeah, somebody gave me this. She said, it's pretty amazing. And I'm like, well, yeah, it is pretty amazing. I will vouch. Like, my dad loved, I mean, even though he was sort of cut from the cloth of doop and whatnot. But vocalists were his thing.

So, I mean, he was listening to Streisand, Johnny Mathis. He patterned himself after Knacking Cold, but he had pet sounds in there. And, you know, I remember I didn't catch one until probably until I moved to Lundon. in 94. But I remember the second song, the one that has a bike horn in it. And when I was a kid, I was really amazed that they had the bike sounds

and bike bells in it. But, you know, to me, the beauty that that album represents, I hear that a lot in your vocal. Oh, definitely. I feel like you're half that. And also, how many times have you heard

Bill Withers, like, you have a tone in your voice that's very similar to Bill Withers that appealed to me because he was like, my God, before the Jacksons came along. Like, Bill Withers was... Yeah, well, no, I actually got to know Bill a little bit. He and Marcia and their daughter, forget her name, Beautiful Girl. But no, major fan of Bill's, you know. The guy was amazing, you know, he was like, he was in the Army, and then he got out, and he started doing music, and he just had an incredible career in the time he did.

I've been withers is amazing. So there are a lot of influence. I mean, Karen Carpenter was a big influence on me, I would say vocally. But Carl was probably more than anybody else. The guy in Carl, and I did a lot of background work together. I was going to say, what was it like having them? Because the list of people that are singing background with you, like from the Eagles to the Wilsons, what is that like having him in there? Well, having Carl come in to sing on my second record was kind of out of body for me.

I mean, standing next to him in the studio, singing was just, you know, beyond a dream come true. And then later on Carl and I did when Brian wasn't doing that well, he and I would do a lot of vocal sessions. As an example, we did California Girls for David Lee Roth. Wait, you're on that? Yeah, that's Carl and I did all the background vocals. Because Brian wasn't, Ted Templeman called me and said,

hey, David's doing a cover of this California girls, you know, come in. I said, yeah, sure. And then Ted calls back and says, hey, we're thinking maybe Carl could come with him. I'm like, oh, I get it now. I get it. That's okay. But so we did a lot of things together, Carl and I did, where I was sort of subbing for Brian, if you will,

because Brian wasn't good that well. So, yeah, we did California Girls, which is kind of... Have you ever heard his rap record? David? No, Brian's. Brian made a rap record? Dog, okay, so... That's not right.

The Vistie Boys in 89, their pet sounds is an album called Paul's Boutique. And this is their second album. Of course, you know, the first album sold gazillion copies and, you know, known these brady dudes, whatever. And they went totally left and made one of the greatest musical art collage records of all time. It's like one of the last kamikaze sampling records. And it was produced by these guys called The Dust Brothers.

It got massive critical acclaim, even though it only sold like, it went gold. But it got massive critical acclaim. And I believe somehow Brian Wilson got word. I don't know, maybe kids put him on to it or whatever, but he liked Paul's boutique and wanted to meet the producers of it. So they introduced him to the Dust Brothers. And I think if you go on YouTube, it's not Earth Girls or Smart Girls or Smart Girls.

I like Smart Girls or something like that. It was almost like it's a PSA song about, Is this his answer to California girls? Oh, it probably could be. So he did five songs with the Dust Brothers and look, I mean, of course, old guy rapping is going to come off like, name is Brian and I'm here to say, like, and I'm here to say he's always the second line and every old white guy rap song. But yeah, he tried it and then stopped after the fifth song.

Probably a good idea. Yeah. But I mean, I admire the balls and the nerve to try to conquer this. Yeah, the adventure to stuff. I think it's great. I was unaware. I'll have to check it out. There you go.

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I love the sounds. The buzzing from the stadium, the chanting from the fans, the announcers calling the place soccer, football at home. Why do I watch the World Cup? That's like asking me, why do I breed? I inherited that fandom from my mom. I like watching it with my dad. It's a connecting force. From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernando Chavarri, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog roots. We go beyond the game to the people and the stories that make it great. A soccer game is a festival. It's not just a game. It's your culture.

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Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, listen up. The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called, Hey Jonas. We're here since everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn is joining the show. How's it going, boys?

Hey, Nile. It was the same thing with Slow Hands. It's all hands is not about anything else really, is it? You know, or taste so good can be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. For all the typecasting that you get for the genre of yacht rock, do you own a boat?

I do not. one time when sailing was released Warner Brothers bought 15 Hobie cats with Christopher Cross first album logo on the sale and they put them in malls and I would go around when I was on the road and people would throw cards in the boats

and I would pick the card out and you won the boat so they gave me one so for a while I had a hobie cat but no I've never What happened to it? I don't know I've got the sale but the boat's long gone I think I washed away in Malibu or something but you know I always talk about the canvas

doing miracles is more of also a painter's canvas, but maybe that's trying too hard. I did do some sailing when I was younger with an older friend of mine. It took me out of the coast and stuff, and I'm sure that had something to do with it. But no, I'm not a real avid sailor. I've been on the Americas Cup boats and Dennis Connor and stuff like that, but it's all just PR stuff, you know. And I'm certain that even now you've done gigs at dock adjacent or... Oh, come on, yeah.

I've done it. Yeah. At nausea. I was going to say, are you tired of performing near water and outside? outdoors and everything. Well, it's like we talked about the dock, you know. I mean, all of us have kind of a love-hate thing with the whole yacht rock thing. You know, it's a little kitschy, but it's been fantastic the way it's brought the younger audience.

But I think in the end of the dock, I think Fagan kind of speaks for all of us in a way. Fagan. Anyway. It was fantastic. Because, you know, my daughter Madison, who you know, produced the dock. And when she, the last holdout was Donald for the five songs to get licenses. And so the whole deal with Donald was this. Okay, if you do this, you know, call me up and record it and put it just as I say, then I'll let you use the songs.

That's all he wanted, just his last middle finger. Yeah. Donald Figgins, wow. Okay. But yeah, sure, I'm the poster child for the whole Y'all Rock thing. Amen. Oh, it. It's legendary to me. Okay, so the one thing I learned in the doc, especially when you're talking about your Grammy journey, have you since that night, been able to properly speak to Barbara Streisand? Never have met her all this time. I saw her at a party once, and Calvin Klein, it was one of these, you know, Hollywood parties, and I ran into Calvin Klein, who I didn't know but to start talking to him,

and I said something, oh, there's Barbara Streisand, you know, I've never met her, and he said she doesn't like you. But you know what? I think the problem was, I never met Barbara. I have incredible respect for her, and she and Barry, and they were up for guilty. But the problem was, I heard that somebody told her, her press people said, you need to come to the awards because you're going to win. And as you know, you know, that's not really true.

I don't think. I don't think anybody knows who's going to. No one knows. You know, after I had best new artists, I sat down, I was fine for the night. I was done. And then all this stuff started happening. So when Diana Ross, when she announced album of the year of my name, I didn't know what to do. I just.

What is the burden of that level of success? Well, it's kind of nowhere to go but down, you know? Like Elvis said, don't be nice to people on the way up if you don't want to come, if you don't plan on come back down. For me, it was meteoric, and I came out of nowhere, and so there's almost nothing I could have done to sustain it. Now, I think another page of my second record was a bit ballad heavy, and the first record was much more eclectic. But I've always made the records from where I was at emotionally, so I couldn't really control that. But maybe if I'd made a record, like some of my later records, like Secret Ladder and these that are more, diverse as a second record, maybe it'd been different,

but I got kind of labeled as a balladeer, especially after doing Arthur. That was in between the first second records and that sort of, oh, that's who he is, you know, kind of thing. But I wouldn't change it with a thing for the world. But no, it's a big burden, the sophomoric effort. I think everybody that's, you know, Bruce Hornsby, Ricky Lee Jones, it's a tough Tracy Chapman.

It's a tough thing to sort of try to duplicate that, you know, and some people, Billy O'S just doing really well with it. But it's, yeah, it's just, But, you know, I wouldn't trade it for the world. Quest is like, you know, with a career I've had, I never would have imagined any of it. So I'm just thrilled at what's happened. Have you ever went through the Nirvana phase where I'm almost certain that a year after Nevermind came out? Like they refused to do smells like Teen Spirit.

Like, we're just not doing it. Like for you, was there a time where you could, I don't feel like doing sailing tonight or I like to win or? you know, I feel it's a disservice to the audience. They pay for a ticket to come see you. Those are the songs they come to. I've got about six well-known songs. So I was telling the guys earlier that sometimes I feel like I could play those six songs three times and it would be totally fine for the audience. But the biggest, no, no, no, I'm thrilled with the songs. They're kind of like Stones in the River that I step on to get across for a 90-minute set. But I mean, it's tough. I've made 12 albums and I'm very fond of the later work. And it's tough that only

of very few people that I just know about these later deep cuts, but we do play some of them. How do you curate the big six next to what you

really want to do? Well, you just, like I said, they're little stones in the river. I just place them where I've got, I give them a little treat, you know,

with a start with, never be the same or something, and then I'll sneak in a couple deep cuts and about the time they're like, I'll go, oh, wait a minute, here's sailing, you know?

Right, okay. And like the other night I had something happened and I had to do something acoustically because the PA went wrong. So I played sailing again on the acoustic by myself and the audience sang along and everybody around so he played it

twice you know i literally think i could do the tune two or three times that but i don't regret it i mean look they put me on the map so it's absolutely great there are artists i know who who um you know they don't do that they won't play certain songs and all that and i think it's kind of a disservice to your fans you know that uh i think i shared this before um we we did a show like once a year when he's active, Dave Matthews will do his personal festival where he curates all the artists that come, whatever. And spin doctors were coming on right before the roots were about to perform. And like the way that, like they treated two princes almost like it was filler.

Like it was the fourth song or the fifth song. They did it in such a shrug way like, oh, by the way. And I'm saying there at the side like, wait a minute. Like, you guys do know that this is the song that they came to hear. And the fact that they had another 40 to 50 minutes to go without any of their signature songs, like it was such a curious choice to me. But they sort of treated it like, we'll just make it our fifth song instead of like the encore or whatever. Well, you know, if I was Elton John and I could play two hours of hits, I would have a problem.

And then there's acts like Steely Dan where, you know, they haven't had really that many big hits on the radio, but every song's a hit. Oh. Well, I mean, you know, can't buy a thrill in this early. You're right. But I'm saying they can play something. But I know them for the filler. Actually, I know, like, you know, we, especially your first album, like I thought half those songs were actual singles and hits. I didn't realize that only a few.

Yeah, four of them were, yes. But I identify artists based on their filler. Whatever makes it the radio, it makes it the radio. But for me, the true sign of an artist is what they do with the songs that aren't that. And so because the quality is still high level to me, I just always, I literally thought your entire first record was all singles that. God bless you that. I think that, you know, Dave Matthews is an artist who's kind of almost like in my mind, almost like a deep cut artist because he's so esoteric. But I think for me, I'm kind of stuck with these songs that everybody knows.

I wouldn't never not play them. I get a wonderful reaction to them. That makes me feel great. But the only downside is, like I said, I'd say half, two-thirds of the audience. In my opinion, from what I can feel, they come for those songs. And then some people are receptive. But I'll start the show. I'll learn to some James Taylor.

James, I'll come up with a blackboard. And he'll say, here's the first set. Here's the second. Here's Babe James. Here's Fire and Rain. But I'm also going to be playing some. I just saw James. He said, I'm going to be playing some songs from my new record.

And he said, I know what you're saying. There's goddamn new songs, but he said, I want to play them. And it was good, and I've do that, too. I'll say, listen, hopefully we're going to play all the songs you came to hear. But we're also going to play some deep cuts later. I hope you enjoy them because otherwise you wouldn't hear them. And, you know, people, they do try, but they're never getting the reaction to a deep cut that you would. But then again, some guy in the audience will yell out some obscure tune, you know.

Okay. So, but, and maybe I underestimate how much the audience knows about. other songs and deep cuts just because of my own insecurity. But, you know, I think it's all a blessing and a curse, you know. What is the best compliment a fan has given you about your music? And what's the best compliment that a peer

has given you about your music? Well, the best compliment a fan, let's see... Or the most surprising one. Well, somebody said to me, There's a tune I have a window album called Angry on Men. And it's about teen angst and stuff. And there's a line that says to come to maturity with some sense of dignity. And I really mean it about personal growth.

But he said, you know that line in your song? He said, I know what it means, but I also think it applies to your career because you said, you've managed to maintain your dignity throughout all these records you've made because you just, you keep doing the best work you can and all this stuff. And I love that comment. And then the nicest comment I heard from Maurice White, rest of soul, started a Morris White one day, and I said, you know, vocally I'm kind of ethnically challenged, you know. And Maurice said, man, it's not about that, man. I can feel it when you sing.

True. And that was like very heavy for me, for Maurice to say that to me. And I think what he was trying to say was, look, man, that stuff's cool. but like the important thing is can somebody feel when you're singing? And he said, I feel it when you sing, man. And that was probably one of them. Really took it to heart. That was pretty wonderful.

What's what up? All right. So you're a Texas musician, but you're kind of the poster child of what we associate as the Southern California sound. What is traditionally Texan about your music or your songwriting that kind of? critics get wrong. What do you feel is in your Texas roots that is in your music? Well, I think right like the wind is certainly, it's sort of based on all these cowboy cereals I used to watch, you know, and also living in San Antonio, there was an allure fascination with going into Mexico, because when you're a kid, it was like debauchery,

and it was all the stuff you could go down there. Your parents didn't want you to do. You know, if you could just get over to Mexico, you could drink tequila, and you could do crazy shit. So, but I'll admit that, you know, even in Austin, a lot of people, because I moved up to Austin pretty early on in 69. You know, I was a fish out of water. You know, Austin's more of a blues roadhouse kind of country music kind of vibe. And so I never really fit in there as far as my music. And of course, I always identified, you know, with the Beach Boys, the Southern California sound, Johnny Mitchell and all that stuff. And so I admit that I'm not your typical Texan kind of sounding artist, was very influenced by Billy Gibbons as a guitarist.

And Zizi's amazing. But, you know, Texan is, Texas is known for. Stevie Ray kind of vibe. And I think now in Texas, the problem is, if you go out to a glove in Texas, you hear all these young guitar players who were trying to be Stevie Ray. And a friend of mine coined a great phrase, they're Stevie Ray Vonnebys. And you want to go, look, you're not, you're not Stevie Ray and stop trying to be him because there was only one Stevie Ray. But anyway, yeah, I'm not your typical, I don't really, except for Rodite the Wind, which kind of has those roots. I mean, I don't know. I think that you're right.

I'm kind of more of a Southern California boy, you know, with what. And I grew up, you know, Johnny Mitchell, David Crosby, acoustic guitars. That's why the whole empty video thing didn't really, I didn't connect and resonate with that too well, because it wasn't how I grew up. I grew up songwriters. I was going to say that because you didn't appear on your album covers or like rarely in your videos, again, in retrospect, especially with. a song like

ride like the win and sailing. If Stevie Wonder made videos for songs in the key of life, I'd be disappointed because I have the exact picture of, you know, whatever says,

synesthesia level that I have of what I think those songs are, as we all do with anything that we heard pre-1981. But knowing what you know now, would you have leaned into getting heavy into videos

knowing that, you're probably the last artist that could pull the anonymous trick and reap in millions and cells. But retroactively, do you think that you would have played that card a little bit different? Well, I mean, the truth of it is, you know, the video thing came along very much slow. But I will say, I think videos in general, at least early on, to me, they sort of obscured the lyrical landscape of something like Johnny Mitchell. I don't want to see a Johnny Mitchell video. You know, she's so brilliant that I want to just paint my own picture of my head for whatever she. And I'd rediscover her lyrics, I'll tell you same with Steely Down.

I mean, the only video Donald ever made was New Frontier, which he didn't play himself. Right. But I'll admit, look, the first album, that cover was painted by a drummer, Jimmy Newhouse, that I was working with at the time. And he showed it to me and said, I think this is what your music looked like. So I brought it to Warner's and they did it. But I'll admit, too, you know, I was overweight. I certainly didn't look like Brad Pitt. And so I was pretty self-conscious.

And so I wasn't that interested in putting my picture on the cover. In fact, I remember when at Howard Stern Show, Robin said, you know, she made some crack about the fact that she loved my voice, but she said, I was so disappointed when I saw you. I thought you'd look like Kenny Loggins. Oh, God. And Howard jumped to my defense, you know. But anyway, so I think part of it's that was just my being self-conscious about my own appearance that I didn't really. You know, if it looked like Rick Springfield or something, I probably would have put a picture everywhere. But so, and then the video thing, I just physically wasn't used to doing that kind of thing.

And it wasn't also what I was drawn to because the artists that I reveal like Randy Newman, you know, Joni. They, Tom Waits, you know, Tom's much more theatrical now. But, you know, it just, it wasn't ever present at that point. So I didn't acclimate to it. Pride month, Toronto. Pride is an opportunity for you to create your own. space to celebrate your existence. IHeart Radio is proud to be an official sponsor of Pride Toronto Festival, and we won't stop.

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We go beyond the game to the people. and the stories that make it great. A soccer game is a festival. It's not just a game. It's your culture. I took an elbow to my head, which cracked my skull. It is an American game. The Brazilians don't like hearing that, though.

Are they the only ones that don't like that? Nobody likes that. As we get ready for the Men's World Cup this summer, listen to American Football as part of the My Coutura podcast network, available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating

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The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called Hey Jonas. We're here, since everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It's the same thing with Slow Hands.

Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can't be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. What was your relationship with V. Warnaker and Austin, like the Warner Brothers family during that time period?

Well, Michael Austin, most son, is the one that signed me. It was kind of an interesting story real quick. I was sending my demos in from Texas, you know. I'd make these demos in the studio, and I would send them to Warner Brothers. And I looked in the Billboard magazine, because I didn't know anything about the business, ANR, I didn't know anything about that stuff.

I looked in there and there was Mo Austin, Chairman of the Board, and then below him was David Berson, who was his assistant. So I said, okay, I'll send my tape to David Berson. I didn't know anything about A&R, Lenny Wurth, these kind of people. I sent my tape to David Berson who'd never gotten to tape. He was a lawyer in Moe's office. Okay.

And he'd never gotten to tape from anybody. So he's going to have lunch with Lenny Wernick at that day, and he said, hey, check this tape out. I got in the mail. Lenny said, give me a break. I'm at lunch. He puts it in, and Lenny says, you know what? I kind of like his voice.

Give it to me. And that's how it all got started, to give it to Michael Austin to check it out, and then it all came, and Michael ended up signing me. But I actually, the serendipitous nature of it, I sent my tape to the wrong guy. And Lenny told me at the time they were not accepting any outside material unless it came from a known producer or somebody. So he said, chances are your tape would have been put in an envelope and sent back to you, thanks, no thanks. But because you sent it to the wrong guy and he played it for me, then you got heard and we started a dialogue. But, no, I was very close to Russ and Lenny, and I'm still close with all of them. Michael, I saw Michael recently.

He lost his house in the Palisades, for sadly. But yeah, yeah, those guys were the guys at the time. You know, they were producing Randy and Ricky Lee and all that. And I always wanted to be on Warner Bros. Because, you know, they had Van Morrison and Joni. And the artist, they seemed like more of a natural, you know, the whole building was all wood. And it was a different vibe than MCA or one of the big corporate companies. So, no, yeah, that's how it all went down for him.

I sent my tape to the wrong guy. So there was a time period in which a record label felt like home and were nurturing and you could go to those guys. And like, when's your version of the Mason-Dixon line of suddenly this just became a corporation and suits without? I always heard that Warner Brothers was like a home. It was. And I think based on what I saw from other companies, you know, not to pick on a mimsy of these more corporate. Well, you know, Napster probably was the beginning of kind of all that, but I'll say that, like, you know, Moe started reprise with Frank Sinatra, and Moe was a record guy, you know, from the beginning. And so there was a different feel there. I mean, I think that there was a true love of music there. And so it was a very different vibe of, I met a lot of people like I was at Warner Bros. New York and met Fagan, you know, so it was a camaraderie there. Anyway, answer your question, I don't know. I mean, I will say one thing, you know, I'm to be 75 soon. And there was a cycle of life back then. People talk about the record companies. Yes, they charged too much for

CDs granted. They could have sold for five bucks. But regardless, I sold 10 million records and Warner's probably made $100 million and whatever I made. But there was a cycle of life. You know, you wrote songs, you went in the studio at their expense with producers, you made a record, went out on the road, went to record stores and did in stores, went to the radio. And they went back into the studio. There was a cycle of life back then to this whole thing. And you were not responsible for a lot of it. Didn't have to come up with the money. Didn't have to promote their record. You didn't have to do all this stuff. So I don't begrudge them for the money they made. Plus, it was kind of sweet because you just wrote music and toured and played.

Now, granted, there's a lot of advantages to YouTube and Pro Tools and all this stuff you can do in your house. But promoting yourself, it's all left up to you. And so I lament the loss of all that. It was a pretty cool model. So how did you wind up choosing the personnel for your first album? And subsequently, I mean, they worked on at least their first four like Michael uh well Michael O'Martian was just signed as a staff producer oh so he see I I didn't come along at a time in which like house producers right produced like so Russ Tidalman was also staff producer Lenny Warnocker Ted Temple so this is why right and so Michael had been you know played along with him Messina and he's from

Chicago and Michael O'Martian he was just been signed and then Michael Austin brought brought me to Warner Bros. for the meeting. I was actually kind of a dick. He introduced me to Marty and I was like, okay, what's up? And I was looking around for Ted Templeman and Gary Katz around. Who's around? Right, right, right. And so finally, Michael Austin could tell the meeting was not going well and he said, you know, Michael and Martin played on a lot of steely dance stuff. I said, because he knew I was steely first. Really? Like what? And Michael and Marty and humbly said, well, like everything, you know. So this is great. So I said, and you know, I just come from Texas and I don't know anything.

So I said to him, you know Larry Carlton? And he goes, yeah, sure. I said, can you get him to play on my record? And he said, sure. And I said, you know, he doesn't do sessions anymore. He's like an artist now. And he said, no, but I know Larry pretty well. I think I can play him playing him.

So here's the deal. If you can get Larry Carlton to play on my record, you can produce my record. And that was the agreement that I made that day. Okay. And later on, years later, when I told Carlton, the story, he said, I should have been getting points. You came in hot.

Okay. Yeah. But then, so the original band they were from Texas. They were the original band that I formed back in Texas, and they played on the first record. And one tune, think of Laura, on the second record. But, you know, Marty and was used to Steeley Dan and used to session musicians. So the second record, we went with Steve Gad, Naval Barrel Sr. And we started going down that road in Toto and all those people. So we started going there, you know. But that was the model I always dreamt of. You know, Steeley's always been my sort of template for the kind of records I wanted to make. So when I had the opportunity to play with Gad and these guys, I was thrilled.

Oh, man. And there was just, Caro, you know. Did you, at any point, just have a video camera handy, like, taping your sessions? I think that, I don't think it was video cameras, then. Okay. There was barely, I think the Polaroids. Yeah.

But no, but it was, it was, I was my own fly on the wall because it was, I started out as a drummer, you know, originally. And I, believe me, all these guys I worked with, like, Jeff and Steve and Vinny and all these guys. I mean, just fantastic players. It was kind of a dream come to. true because I was kind of like I said living the steely dream I was working with all the same musicians that they worked with and I wanted to make those kind of records I wanted to um make that kind of sophisticated pop you know okay now I feel like such an imposter but like my guitar player Kirk is living in my head right now it's like love him you never ask you never ask

guitarist like what gear they like because people want to know like what were you using what was your your acts of choice for that particular album to get that clean sound. Well, a strat, you know, certainly a strat for those days, and I think it was playing fenders, you know, it was not that remarkable, but strat fenders. And I think that, you know, my, like I said, my guitar heroes were, you know, Gibbons and Jeff Beck and, you know, had people like that, Larry Carlton. But, yeah, I've always been a gearhead, but yeah, it was, it was more of the production style of getting these players in the studio who kind of make the magic. You know, you bring in a tune with a chart, and they expound on that harmonically. You know,

they bring a thing to it. Like even Fagan, I think Donald plays well, but I think Greg Philan Gaines can, and Marty and these guys can, you know, spread their fingers bigger than Lasker Peterson style. Right. And so that's one of the things I loved about what Amardian did for the music is playing,

but also the string arrangements and everything like that, yeah. I was going to say, like, for songwriting sessions, because of Michael's mastery of keyboards, and just the way he thinks in terms of chord, progressions and whatnot, how did that open up your world as far as ideas he had in your head? Because, I mean, I've heard the demos of the stuff you did. So the demos that you did, did you do those on your own? Did them on my own? And I think they're very, I said in my box set, I think they're very,

the bones are there. You know, the bones are there that we, the, Marty and, of course, played. He did the string arrangements. He did things to the music to make it, you know, more sophisticated. But the bones on sailing right like to win those, those tunes, You know, we had such a long way to go and all those parts because we didn't have Michael Dental singing him. But Amardi brought some wonderful things to it. And I think for me, at one moment with Amardi that was funny was he's probably the most talented cat I've ever worked with. He's just incredibly powerful. But he, at one point, he was second record.

I think he was doing some takedowns. I was playing him a new tune. He was doing some takedowns. And I noticed he's riding ahead of what I'm playing for him. Really? And I was like, what the fuck, man? You know, I didn't play that chord yet. He goes, well, I mean, I know your style harmonically, so I just figured you're probably going to go.

You're probably going to see short money. I said, well, man, I feel like I can have a chump here. But, you know, he's so brilliant that he could do that. But, no, he brought a lot to the music. And in fact, on sailing, the solo song was written. And we had a synth solo on it, on the solo on sailing. And I came back to the studio after being at dinner or something. And Michael was in the lights for dim.

He sang at the grand piano. and he said, I've got something I want you to hear. He had played the solo to sailing it over and it. It was exquisite, but I was so wrapped into the Steely Dan thing that I, he said, and it was really emotional for him. He was very proud of it. And he said, and deservedly so. But he said, what do you think?

And I said, it's pretty beautiful. But I said, I think there's a note in the second bar that's a little late. And he said, what? And I said, I mean, Steely Dan would never let that go back. And he just went, you know what, man. You wouldn't let it go. I am so sick of hearing about Steely Dan. And he got his portion left, you know.

Wait, for real? Yeah, he just said, you know what, man, if you don't get, and of course, I listened to it a few times and went, of course, it's exquisite, perfect. But I was so wrapped up in the perfection of how Donald Walter worked that it was like. And he'd done all those records. Were you afraid of being too pristine? No, to more pristine the better. And, of course, people say Steeley's too sterile and all that stuff. I hear those arguments.

But for me, I mean, they're, as far as a pop record making at the time, and even it holds, up. I mean, they're the masters that, in my opinion. Can you rank your top five steely albums? Because the thing is, I know that entire catalog, but it's not because I put it on the record and listen to it. I just happen to be at a

place where I'll catch this verse or this bar. Maybe I'll be on the airplane. Remember, they used to curate the music for you with those little plastic headphones. You hear a song or whatever. I know all the songs. Like, a great example is

it's so hard to pronounce Badavista Yeah, Bada Safa. I could never say that word. What is it again? Bodhisatt. It means like a guru, you know, Bodhisatt.

All right, so I think for one, I'm a weird kid that in a 3,000 album household, there would be a bunch of records that had scary looking covers to me. so the Royal Scam album cover it this is probably why I got turned off to silly Dan the Royal Scam album cover with the buildings with fangs nah I couldn't do that so I would hide certain records that were scary to me

either the bottom of the pile or like away in the household and Royal Scam was one of those things which was weird because once we got into the sampling age and everyone's praising Connie for this you know know, genius level sampling and the Steely Dan record. And I'm realizing that two of these things came from Royal Scam. I was like, damn, like, I did myself a disservice not studying this record because I was scared of the album cover. Yeah, I mean, Kid Charlotte, man, on that record.

So my best top five stuff, I can't buy it's real. I mean, all of them, pretzologic, you know, royal scam. Katie Lyd. What's your number, what's your fifth record? Katie Lod, Asia, of course, Asia, you know. So Asia's number four? Well, it's a tough one, man. Asia.

All right. You can save one album from their catalog. What is it? They're going to give you permission to curate a box set for just what's the album that you want to dive into the most? Well, probably Asia only because for all of us, that's when the big shift moved, when they started to really go into the jazz idiom thing, use jazz players and all that stuff. And it kind of blew it, but it's mine. And they'll say the same thing. When they started to really let that influence come out, their influence. influences from the jazz era. So I think it's an incredibly gorgeous record. You know, the cover was painted by that comedian, Phil Hartman. I learned this, yes. Yeah. But no, I think Asia's, you know, it's Joni, I read something recently, she loves Gaucho and Asia both. She just loves them both. And she just, she really has a lot of respect for them. I mean, I think, I mean, all the later, all the records they've made. Then, of course, Comaicaa and some of the stuff they did later was more groove stuff. But yeah,

And then Nightfly, when Walter was not doing well, until I was in the studio when they were on... I always wonder why that wasn't a Steely Dan record as opposed to a Fagan solo record. Well, Walter, to my knowledge, Walter was, you know, using whatever crossing the street in New York was hit by a cab. The leg broke him pretty badly. He was in the hospital for like a year.

So during that time, they had started Goucho, and Donald finished Goucho on his own. And I actually got to go in the studio when Donald was working on Goucho. And then after that, you know, Donald made... Nightfly just because Walter was not around. So he made a solo record. And that's the story I heard. And then I got to be in the studio in New York when he was doing on,

working on New Frontier or something. So it was pretty cool. You got to witness that? Yeah, well, Donald had been up with New Frontier. I was down there for that. Also, Roger Nichols' engineer was a good friend of mine. And Gary, Katz, would invite me down sometimes. And Donald was fine with it.

But, yeah, I think Goucho Donald finished on his own. And then Nightfly, he did. But, yeah, it was because Walter wasn't doing well. Yeah. So legendary drummer James Gatson had passed away earlier this year. And I revisited all of his session work. And, of course, I know that he is on nightfly. Like for me, I will say like IGY's, if I had to choose a soundtrack for like a non-specific but a very happy moment in my life.

like I don't know what it was about what was happening in November, December of 82, seventh grade, but every time I hear that song, like it takes me back. And the thing is, is that that wasn't a rosy picture of my life, but I think the purpose of music is to appear in your life as the highlight to an otherwise drab and dreary time. So, like, for me, hearing those records, especially with New Frontier and everything, like that... Yeah, it was just, you know, Greg Phil and Gaines up until just very recently, he was in Toto, working with Toto. Now I think he's playing with Sammy Hagar, but anyway, Greg played on IGY.

And, no, it's funny with them because, you know, you're right, it's such a wonderful field of that tune. And yet, you know, most of the time you see Donald, he doesn't look like the happiest guy. And I just saw a funny thing about Steely Dan, the ten funniest things they ever said. And one of them was Walter was interviewed. And they said, do you guys have any hobbies or pastimes? And Walter said, brooding. Brooding is a big one. Which I loved.

How did you wind up being friends with them? Well, I can't say I'm really friends with Donald. I mean, we're acquainted. He's like so many people in this business I know, not like something like Michael McDonald's who I'm very close to. But Donald's an acquaintance, you know, we're friendly. when I see him, but I met him years ago at Warner Brothers, but, you know, he's not the most, at least in my experience, not the most, yeah, warm and fuzzy, he's not that easy to get to talk to. Walter was more affable, but yeah, I mean, I'm just such an awe of the guy, but I've been,

you know, fortunate to be, I've got invited down, but my cats to those two sessions, and stuff like that, and he's, he's actually wonderful. It's just, you know, he's not a big talker, you know, he doesn't really, he gives you one-word answers and stuff, maybe not to other people he knows real well, but, you know. I think, and I forget the album that they worked on in the 90s, but Katz called me. And if I'm doing more than three takes, then something's wrong. You know, normally, I can nail what you want in two takes. I think I got out there in two hours.

They were like, okay, let's do it again. I think they have this theory where it's like they want you to be not so studied, but like muscle memory. and I think by that point in 94 I was so helping on being such a perfectionist metronome and they kept trying to get me like

you know like play looser play more purple or whatever yeah I'd get finally when I like when I finally got to DeAngelo who you know the magic of playing with DeAngelo was you know the sloppier you are the more

but in my mind I'm thinking of like all the drummers in all city high school and obstacles I have to like overcome as far as like technique and especially now like you know musicians are so helping on look mono hands and this technique I have and whatever so just to undo the perfection and just you should have uh dr. Bernard pretty for you when to do session because you know when Bernard did Babylon sisters Michael was on the date so was Chuck Rainey and Michael told me that uh oh wasn't there but Michael told me that first take, Bernard got up and walked out, said I got my part. And Omardi and then Chuck Rainey looked at each other, went like no one walks out on Steely Dan.

So then Donald Malter listened to the board and said, he's right. And he got first take. So you got to have his bravado. Bastard. Yeah. Purdy did a session for my dad once, and my dad introduced me to him, I think it was like two or three. And my dad says, come here. He says, do you know this is?

It was like, no. and he's Bernard Purdy. He's like, Bernard, tell me how do you keep food on the table? And Bernard's like, the two and the four. And I didn't understand what that meant. I'm not sure I do either. But basically, the more straight ahead you are not fancy than... Well, of course, he did the famous Pretty Shuffle, which is...

Yeah, nothing but grace notes and everything. That's Rosanna. That's Rosanna. Right, exactly. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart. IHard Radio, Canada's number one streaming app for radio and podcasts, including IHart Pride Canada, your favorite hits and must have party bangers, plus personalized and curated playlists, like back in the day pride. Come together, celebrate, love. Take pride with you, anytime, anywhere.

Just ask your smart speaker to play IHart Pride Canada. Stream us on your phone. Or listen now at iHeartRadio.ca. I love the sounds, the buzzing from the stadium, the chanting, from the fans, the announcers calling the place soccer, football, it's home. Why do I watch the World Cup? That's like asking me, why do I breed? I inherited that fandom from my mom.

I like watching it with my dad. It's a connecting force. From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernanda Chavari, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog roots. We go beyond the game to the people and the stories that make it great. A soccer game is a festival. It's not just a game. It's your culture. I took an elbow to my head which cracked my skull. It is an American game. The Brazilians don't like hearing that though. Are they the only ones that don't like that?

Nobody likes that. As we get ready for the Men's World Cup this summer, listen to American Football as part of the My Coutura podcast network, available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer,

and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, listen up. The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called, Hey Jonas. We've here, since everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well.

And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It's the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done.

You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. All right, so, in Ride Like the Wind, you paint this picture of an outlaw on the run and whatever, headed for the border. Did you base that character on a movie that you saw or a dream that you had? Like, what was the basis of your outlaw character for Riley? Well, when I was, my dad was a doctor in the arm.

So back then, you'd go to the movies for 25 cents. So we'd go to the movie theater on the base, and they would have these cowboy serials, like the Lone Ranger or Hoplon Cassidy and these kind of guys. And they were always chasing the outlaw, you know, and trying to catch him before he made it to Mexico. And even though they never showed what went on there, you know, the rumors grew. And so it was just like, it was like said teen angst or the anarchism of just escaping your parents' control. So Mexico became this mystical world of like debauchery that you could go down there and drink and you could do stuff, you know, that your parents would hate. So that's kind of what it's about if I could just make it to the border of Mexico.

Like the onion, the onion some years ago had a thing that said Christopher Cross finally made it to the border of Mexico. But interesting story for you is, I don't know they ever told us on the thing. So we used to play at a club, you know, covers and stuff like that. And I have to tell McCartney this unless he checks your pocket. I don't think I've ever told Paul, but we were doing 1985, the Wings tune, and we, you know, we played four or five hours in nights. He had to extend tunes and all that stuff. It was a dance floor. So we're playing in 1985.

It's a C minor. So we're playing 1985. I'm getting into a jam, and people are dancing. I started doing that. And people, I noticed that they were like really getting into it, you know, and it was another level of energy. 1985, that's where the inspiration for that turnaround came from? So I took that part, and I went, you know, there's something about this that's got the, thing. So then I wrote the tune around that. I had that part first and then I wrote the verses.

Damn! And I don't think I've ever told Paul that. He's probably going to say, I should have got royalties. He has enough royalties. But no, the seed of the song came from my 1885, McCartney. I ripped him off. I love that turnaround, man. Wow. But I had that and then I had to build a song around it. And then, of course, I mentioned the dock, the yacht rock doc, that I had the music all finally finished and we're driving down to, you know, from Houston our gig to send to Austin when I went to record the thing. That's when I said to the doc, which I got all this bad stuff for. I took a hit of acid and we're in the car and I wrote the lyrics on the way down to Austin. Dude, that made you even cooler to me. Like, well, yes. A couple of these guys, you probably

know them that they were on. They have some kind of podcast thing and my daughter sent it to me said, these guys are really cool and they're like, yeah, man, all right. Christopher Cross so weed, you know, and they were like totally up. Well, your generation is different. It made you human. Well, but for my generation. Yeah, I'm not, there's nothing more majority about me at all. Like, you know, when you have that magic part, and this is what I always wanted to know about song

structuring, because for my world, when we're mining for gold, especially in terms of where classic hip-hop was, where a lot of the music was derived from sampling, from other records, you're always searching for

the perfect four bars, or the perfect eight bars to make your foundation. When you have a magical idea that's based on that, why didn't you make that the main course? Now, granted, the way the song is structured now, Chef's Kiss, I wouldn't change a thing. Like, that coming at the end made it more magic. But at one point, were you trying to build the song just around that turnaround? No, I felt it was kind of a instrumental bridge. I did. So you knew that that's your victory lap and you have to work backwards and figure out.

And also from all my other song writing influences, you know, I had versing Beatles, you know, A-B-A-B, you know, I had to have a chorus and a verse and a chorus and stuff like that. Well, that's ABC. Yeah, well, it is. Well, it got such a long way to go is sort of the chorus. But no, like was sailing as an example, like I was sitting in my kitchen. Oh, damn. See, I always thought that as the bridge.

No, the chorus has got such a long way to go. Such a long way to go. That's the chorus. And the bridge is da-da-da-da-da. Okay. You know what? We bought the arm wrestle. Quest.

It's semantics, man. Whatever you call it, you're the boss. You know, whatever. To me, got such a long way to go is the chorus. And then the bridge is the bott-da-da-da-up part. Yeah, but then you return to the A part to say, I don't like the way.

Yeah, I do. I would go to another verse, but, you know. Ah, damn. It's okay, so weird that we're seeing the song structure in a weird way. I think it's pretty interesting. I kind of dig. The Roots like you right now because the Roots and I argue like this where we'll battle over where's the one. And of course, it's my band, so I get, you know, House Rules.

But, God, now did you put that in my head. Because in my mind, I tend to make these little shortlist or whatever. And in my mind, I love right like the wind because I was like, wow, the song is so strong that even his bridge is stronger than the course. Like the chorus doesn't exist because his bridge just nails it, but you see that. Okay, if that's the case then,

or what would you call it the song? Why don't you call it a long way to go? Well, because... I'm just a genius, but no. Don't you love the nerve of me trying to argue his own creation? Check it out. I think it's interesting. I wish I'd have to call Mike McDonnell to say,

okay, when Rod Light to Win, like, what do you think the chorus is? And I've never thought this, you're bringing something whole new. I think asking me your musician friends like, right like to win, what's the chorus and see what they say? I could be completely mistaken. I've been thinking about my whole career. Well, I just always thought that the verse is the verse. And then the first change in the first change in the song is a bridge that's going to lead us to a destination, which is so I ride like the win, right, like the win.

Which isn't. It's kind of a reprieve, but I think, and I got a long way to go. long, make, that's the chorus. Okay. I mean, what do I know? Let's vote on this kid. Yeah. What do I know?

I only wrote the song. But, uh... I'm going to let you add this, but in my mind... No, I think you should ask, I think you should ask, uh... I remember one of the great things that at me was Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis told me that they were in the car and right like the wind came on and they pulled over into a parking lot. Yo, they always, whenever song comes over, they always pull over.

And they were telling me. They pulled over the parking lot and turned it up really loud. And Jimmy Terry was saying, what the fuck is this? You know, because they said the whole thing with the strings and all that stuff, just as producers, they were checking it out. But yeah, I don't know. Well, you know, it's interesting. It was sailing, like Joni Mitchell uses a lot of modal tunings because she had polio as a child and all that.

So I got all that from her, the tuning thing. So sailing's in a modal tuning. And when I wrote that song, and that's why this sort of mystical thing of the stuff gets beamed down. and I don't completely disagree, because I'm sitting around just, and I started playing that, da-da-da-da-a-d-riff. And out of the blue,

I just sang the first verse and chorus, just unsolicited. So then I had the first verse and the chorus, so then I started writing with a pen and paper like, It's Not Farter, Never Never Land, all that stuff. But I did not have any kind of a bridge. I had this verses and courses for two years, Quest, because it's an immodal.

It can get very linear and sort of stagnant. And so it took me about, two years to come up with the bridge, the piano solo part, which changes keys and everything, to lift it out of the modality of the modal tuning thing. Because sometimes modal tuning is that kind of drone and all that. So yeah, the whole process of this is pretty interesting. But the initial part of sailing, I got to say, I don't argue that I don't know where it came from. And I'm not one of those kind of guys. But it came out of nowhere. I just sang, let's not far down to Paradise. Lisa is not familiar. The one is right. Literally just

unsolicited. And then the chorus, all without thinking about it. During this period, what are your weapons of choices? Because oftentimes, and I ask this a lot of songwriters, especially now with iPhones, when I get an idea and I'm alone, I will baseline. Okay, first guitar line, rhythm guitar bar. And then I'll return to four days later

and it's all just gibberish. And I never, how do you document when something hits you or do you just suffer in your head? When I got up, when I came with the verse and chorus part, I got up off the Linolium chair it was on and just went, wow, that is, that's something there. I got something. I'm on to something here with this. And then I just kept playing it and playing it, playing it.

Now sometimes, you know, I'll do a little chart, kind of write a little, you know, chart of the chords and stuff like that. I forgot about that part. Yeah. You could actually not take. But no, we had no way to record and that kind of stuff and nothing like that. But no, you just play it repetitively to you. And of course, I was sober at the moment, but usually with me, if I was high or something, and wrote a song and I thought it was brilliant the next day when I wake up and listen to him,

I went, this is awful. I think that happens to a lot of people. So not enough is made about you just having a world-class voice in the beauty and the tone of your voice. The guitar solo in Rite Like the Win, you did the honors. I did, yes. However, I mean, you had access to Graydon, Lucifer, like, you know, all the aces of that particular moment. What was the decision in having you nailing the guitar solo? You know, I'm not really sure.

Maybe O'Martian said, hey, you should play a solo on something, you know, because I was so enamored by Jay and Larry and all these people. I mean, with the second record with Steve Lukather, when he played some solos on stuff, of, and of course, Eric Johnson was on the first record. A lot of those guys have encouraged me to kind of, you know, hey, you should play something. But I don't know. I think maybe O'Martian said, hey, you should play a guitar solo on something. But I'm not really sure how that all went down, but I played it.

But interestingly, you know, Rick Biotto just did a show about this is the greatest guitar solo you never heard, because it's kind of buried in a wall of sound. But it sticks with you. But so he did a thing where he soloed it, and then he did everything about it. And, you know, I thought it was really nice, but I didn't think too much about it. But I was so enamored by, you know, Eric Johnson, who I grew up with and all these guitar players, that I just wanted them to do everything. You know, it was like, they're so great.

But I think encouragement, Larry may have said to me, hey, man, you know, you should play something. You know, so they were happy to do the session work, but they were all very supportive of a plan. But yeah, that's one of those that just, and also it's probably the most suited to my style, you know. And like I told you, my early influences were certainly Billy Gibbons, but, you know, Jeff Beck and the usual. Now, I don't know if this is, who engineered the first album? A guy named Chet Heimes, great, great engineer. What else did he do? He didn't do much else.

He did that and kind of struggle with some substance stuff, and then he passed away. But he was nominated for a Grammy, but he didn't win. But brilliant guy and did that first record, and he did the second record. but then he passed away. And so, yeah. You know, McDonald's voice on your records is such a specific, I mean, you know, there's not enough superlatives for what Michael McDonald brings to the table as far as like his harmonies. But I'd always wanted to know, especially for his very distinctive baritone, that is there some sort of consideration. frequency-wise, mixing-wise, or even chord-wise, because he is an instrument, I think he's

an instrument more than he is a voice. And so, is there any consideration to make space for him to shine through? Like, okay, well, let's not use this particular patch of keyboard, or oftentimes if I work on a song, especially with singers that are heavy into harmony, one, I have to sacrifice myself. There's certain records in which the rhythm is there, but I'm not fully playing drums. Like Charlie Watts leaving out the hi-hat. You see where I'm going.

Like, at the time, did you know that McDonald was going to kind of paint all over your walls as you're tracking the rhythm section, or was that just in... Yeah, I'd like take credit, but I don't. I mean, like in the documentary, yeah, Rock, Doc, you know, there's a thing where Gary and

Gary said Donald Fagan said of McDonald's. He sounds like a herd of camels, you know. He does. Well, so what happened was we were cutting, we were in the studio cutting the first record, and Michael was cut in taking its streets next door. In Studio A, we were in Studio E at Warner's. Okay.

So, Marty went over and said, hey, you know, I'm producing this kid from Texas. She's come and come and check it out. And Michael and Donald came over and listened to what we were doing. And we were actually doing a really, a song really don't know anymore. And McDonald's said, well, man. Michael said the funniest thing.

He said, you know, man, you know this experience you have when you come to somebody else's session? And you think, why doesn't our session sound this good? Oh, yeah. When you're on someone else's thing, like you... It's like, this sounds amazing. So then he said, if you need any background focus, let me know. So we stuck in Mike in his face.

And he sang on that. Then we got around doing right like the wind. We had such a long way to go when we were singing it. And, of course, then we realized, well, there's only one cat to do this. And then as the years gone on, he sang on so many things. I don't know that we really made a thing, but at the end of where I'd like to win, the complaint with a lot of people in my guitar soul is buried. It was more of the, not Phil Spector, but kind of wall of sound, you got the strings, you got

Mike's voice, you got all this stuff happening, and it's funny because people will say to me, you and Mike sounds so good together, and I'm like, what are you talking about? We're completely different, you know, in our style and everything we do. I love him to death. He's incredible. There's no one like him, but, you know, he comes from a completely different place than I do. Right. And our voices are really, really different.

But maybe that's the charm in it. But either way, yeah, and I don't recall this in terms of mixing. But you know what? Mixing-wise, I'm not great at that. My contributions would be like, call me when you're pretty close, and I'll come in and tell you what I think. So I bring this, I bring this. I don't have the patience to sit there and mix.

Oh, so you're not a micromanager in terms of like. Well, and it's funny because Steeley, you know, Donald is, but I guess. But no, I'm more like, okay, we cut the record, you know, get it to a place where you can play it for me. and then I'll tell you, I know a snare to them's too loud. I have good instincts, I think, with the overall soundscape, but I'm not big on sitting there going,

you know, let's listen to the snare. Mixing is my heaven. Well, because I love to hear when a song, do you get demo? Okay, well, all right, I'm so excited about everything you said. I'm like losing my composer here in terms of being professional. Do you get demoitis in terms of if you live with a rough, makes too long when it's perfected and in cleaner and everything do you still like find yourself like ah the demo was where we captured the magic or are you willing to now accept the new finalized

oh yeah i only want to improve i mean when we brought in the original demos the eight songs of what i gave to warners you know we had the demos and that's what they signed me off of but when when we started going in the studio, in a real studio, with all the stuff and Omardi, and I was not resistant at all to, like, you know, wanting things to get, you know, more polished and better what Michael brought to it in the whole thing. Because, you know, I mean, the demos, I did my best. There were 24-track demos, but, you know, I've learned so much from Omardi and doing the four records I did with them. But, you know, I produced those demos myself, so there was plenty of room for improvement. But, no, I don't have a lot of demo idas. I think that I've heard of that. I know what

it could be like. But, you know, I, I, again, you know, I heard Larry Carlton told me that he was MDing for Donald, and he could probably steal it end, but Donald would send him recordings of him playing suitcase piano on a little bitty record it with a little black mic on a cassette and send him to Larry to do the takedowns for the sessions. And I'm like, hmm? Where are those cassettes? And Larry said, I don't know, there's somewhere. I said, we'll go and get them. Yeah, I was like, and then I found out later from his son, Travis, that they burned in a fire. But can you imagine Donald Finger playing Babylon's sisters by himself at a piano with the little mic, you know, it's priceless. But so no, I always wanted things to get slicker and slicker,

you know. Okay. So because it's so flawless, is there a mistake or something that's wrong on the record that only you know about that we don't know about that you hear it every time? Like, is there a half a second of a wrong chord or something? Like, no, they're pretty pretty, perfect. Okay. No, but you know what? When I did the thing about the sailing solo with Omarty and I brought up the Steeley Dan reference, he said, look, there are mistakes on Steely Dan records. You just don't hear them. Just like all the early, the Beatles stuff that we've heard, you know, with Paul's voice cracking. And I remember, I think I asked Donald once about it, and Donald said, yeah, like Walter and I can't even listen to Katie lied because it was mixed

on some weird speakers that we hate and can barely stand. And I said, we're talking about Katie it's like unbelievable. And he said, no. They don't like it. They don't like the sound of it. That's what Donald told me. What? That's what I'm. That's what I'm, That's what I remember is the Donald or Gary telling me. But no, I don't have anything that really, really sticks out. I mean, I tried. We worked very hard. And I don't have any musical regrets, you know, with stuff that I did.

So I know that the digital 32-track machine. I forget the- Well, there was the Sony one and then, you know. Right. Mississippi. So I know that, well, okay, so I know that Stevie Wonder caught a lot of hell for kind of the flattened. of the journey through the Secret Life of Plants album.

I believe he was like one of the first guinea pigs to record on that digital technology. Your album was recorded on the same board, was it not? Well, the first album was recorded on a Harrison, which is not particularly a great board, but it was what they had at the time. It was steady out at the time. But I was, the first album was done on...

What was digital, right? No, analog, two 24 tracks. Okay. The second album, we used one analog machine and one digital machine. the 3M digital machine. The first album was all analog. At the time, could you tell like a difference or, I mean, I'm sure we all sold like

perfect sound and da-da-da-da-da, but... We cut the basic tracks on the 24-track analog machine to select sound of the drums and everything. I mean, I think analog is superior, especially for drums and bass things. There's a warmth there. But then we got using the digital machine. I did like the fact that you could, even early on with those machines, you could drop in 20 seconds of something, you know. So, you know, I used to stand that there for hours, singing parts.

If I was flat, I had to sing it again and all that. So, you know, you got into the comping thing. So that was why people liked it a lot. But no, I still think analog over, I don't know what they said. I think analog is superior as far as a great analog machine. Of course. In fact, Eric Johnson cuts his basic tracks on 2 inch 16. So it's a 2 inch machine, but it's a 16 track head.

So the gaps are wider. Oh. And then he saves that tape and sets it aside. And then when they mix, he brings it out again. I never thought of that. Oh, yeah, that's how to get the real meat. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm learning a lot of here. You're telling me shit that it's going to make me scrap the record and start all over again. Before you were born, you know, this stuff was happening. But no, analog's amazing, but certainly the convenience of digital with all this stuff. I mean, there was a thing, Elliot, I forget his name now, he built this comping machine, this before you're born probably. You put in TRS, from the console you put in seven tracks of vocal, come in from the board,

tracks of vocal. And you could pick A and B track and you could slide this fade over. It was a really expensive machine. You could slide it over to do a comp. So fast. Really? That it was a manual comp. And I'm already and used it a lot. Yeah, it was pretty amazing. Seven vocal tracks come in.

He says, okay, I want these two words from this track onto this track here. And then right at that point, he slides the Fader Rover, and it slides track 7 to 5, that kind of thing. And people use that quite a bit before all the ProTools should get. Before ProTools. Yeah. Now it's just so much about convenience and the even, I just saw commercial with Shaq where they're doing auto-tune, you know. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart. I-R-Radio, Canada's number one streaming app for radio and podcasts, including I-Hart Pride Canada, your favorite hits and must-have party bangers. Plus personalized and curated playlists, like back in the day pride.

Come together, celebrate love. Take pride with you anytime, anywhere. Just ask your smart speaker to play IHart Pride Canada. Stream us on your phone. Or listen now at iHeartRadio.ca. I love the sounds, the buzzing from the stadium, the chanting from the fans, the announcers calling the place soccer, football at home. Why do I watch the World Cup?

That's like asking me, why do I breed? I inherited that fandom from my mom. I like watching it with my dad. It's a connecting force. From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernanda Chavari, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog roots. We go beyond the game to the people and the stories that make it great. A soccer game is a festival.

It's just a game. It's your culture. I took an elbow to my head, which cracked my skull. It is an American game. The Brazilians don't like hearing that, though. Are they the only ones that don't like that? Nobody likes that. As we get ready for the Men's World Cup this summer,

listen to American Football as part of the MyCultura podcast network, available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.

Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, listen up. The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called, Hey Jonas. We figure since everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys?

Hey, Niall. It's the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can't be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

It's just hitting me right now. Your album comes out, I mean, really in the dawn of the 80s. And I remember, okay, so I specifically remember where I was when I first heard you. My dad was buying a brand new stereo system. You know, he was like a gearhead and whatnot. So your album was used as the demonstration record to show us what people. However, another piece of technology that gets invented, kind of the same year that your album coming out, is the Walkman.

Right. So for such a perfect sounding record that's made for, like, stereo, yeah. Was there concerns that now, because even now when I create, most of us get our, like, we now judge it based on playing it on our, laptop or listening on the phone or whatever. It's not, I haven't heard music on loudspeakers in a second. In the age of Walkman, was that concerning that? Very much. So it was not welcome at all. In fact, it just devolved from there, in my opinion. And of course, like Neil Young came out with this thing called the ponos. I still have my poe. Yeah, that Neil brought out.

Trying to somehow rectify the situation. But no, it just devolved from there. He's still trying to fix it? Well, I mean, Neil brought it out trying to fix. No, Neil brought the ponos out. Oh. And I remember he took it to Mo Austin and showed him trying to fix this problem with the degradation of the quality of MP3 and all that stuff. Wait, you're saying that he has been working on the ponos for the longest time? Well, no, this is a long time ago. I'm saying when all this stuff came out and there was this degradation with empathy and compression and all that stuff and compromises and, you know, Neil brought out this ponos thing, the thing like this and he brought it to Mo Austin showed it to them because it was like really high-fi and it was 24-bit or whatever.

It was just a lot better. Now, things are getting much, much better. We got 96K and all that stuff. But no, that was a drag to have to listen to. In fact, my second record, another page, was the first record on Warner Brothers on cassette. And, you know, cassette sound like shit. I mean, the tape is like that big, you know. Wait, I didn't realize it.

Yeah, well, just on Warner Brothers. Another page, the second record, they added Arthur to it on the cassette only. And so you could get, buy the cassette. That's what I was going to ask you. How come you didn't put Arthur on the second record? Because there was a lot of contractual shit with doing Arthur. It wasn't on Warner's or whatever the case. But Warner's ended up, they put it on the cassette to drive people to buy cassettes.

So you bought another page vinyl. It wasn't on there. but if you thought... That's why they... Right, marketing thing. But to me, when you put on the album, you know, and listen to it's made, but then the cassette is disappointing, you know.

I've read that, and I don't know if this came from you opening for Zeppelin. You brought something from Jimmy Page? What is it that you... Oh, he's a gear. Jimmy was playing these high watt amplifiers from England that this guy Dave Reed mazes's garage. And the only people that I'd seen in magazines were he in Townsend.

So I was on the road. I was on a couple shows with him, and I was hanging out. And you got to realize, first tour in the States, there wasn't all this security. They weren't huge like they got. So we all shared the same dressing room. It was kind of like access. And Jimmy was very, very nice.

And so, you know, I asked him about these amplifiers. I said, wow, these are so cool. I've seen them in magazines, but we don't have them here. And he said, well, just Pete and I have him. But he said, if you want one, give my guy some money, we'll have Dave building one, send you one. And I gave him $700. I was like $19. And my friend said, you'll never see it.

But two months later, by boat, here comes this. cabinet and head and I had a high watt that Jimmy Page gave. So prime Jimmy Page sold you a captain. Well, he had one made from me in England and had it and then shipped to me in San Antonio. But what's cool about it was the coolest gone to San Antonio because of a high watt, but also I got it from Jimmy Page. Where is it now? I have no idea. Come on, man. Sad to say. You serious? I probably sold it for drugs, I'm sure. You're not cinnamonal like that with any of your...

Not gear. I'm always been wrong. Where are your Grammys right now? Well, they're at my place in New York. Stop playing. Where are your Grammys? In New York in my problem. Okay. But you know what's interesting is I saw Jimmy, the Beach Boys did two big concerts in Philly and Russian D.C.

And Jimmy was on the show solo playing some blues and stuff on the show. This is like Fourth of July. Carl was still alive. Okay. But anyway, I went back to say a little to Jimmy because, you know, I was then I was Christopher Cross. So I went back, so alone. He was very, very gracious again. But I told him the story, and Jimmy said, you know, man, I don't remember anything about this.

But he said, but I got to tell you, I love the story. It's such a touching thing. I remember it. I've never seen Jimmy Stens, but I said, he said, I love the story. I said, really? And he said, yeah, because it sounds like I was nice to you. And I said, oh, man, I was like a puppy dog at your feet. Can I have your pick or whatever?

He said, it sounds like I was nice to you. And I said, you were so nice. You can't imagine. He said, and Jimmy said, you know what? Legendary people love when the boomerang comes back. He said, I like this story because he said, I've not always been the nicest guy. That was just like heavy, man. Meaning like, we got huge, and there were moments when I probably wasn't that nice.

And so the fact that I was nice to this young kid, got you this amplifier. I mean, I don't remember, but, and I thought that was, I don't know Jimmy at all, but I thought that was very touching that he said that because, you know, he was. He was so patient and nice. Of course, they weren't huge then. In fact, after the first night, we were in the dressing, and be on the second show, and Jimmy said, how do you kids, he and plants said,

how do you kids follow us around? Are your parents are rich or something? And I said, well, no, we're opening the show. And he said, really? So we weren't very good, but the next night, we're playing our set 30 minutes. I look on the side of the stage, and there's Jimmy and Robert standing there.

That is crazy. And they didn't stay very long, but they said, yeah, but it was crazy. It was fantastic. opportunities to, and so that's where the ginger breaker story, same thing. This same promoter, Joe Miller, put me on a bunch of, I used to work for Joe as a production assistant doing anything I could do just to learn about the business. And my job that night when Blind Faith came through town was to ginger had ulcers. So my job, I got a big silver bucket with ice,

and my job was to get quarts of milk, which I'd have the spout open. And I crouched down behind Ginger's kit, silver, double bass drums. And remember I was a drummer. So I crouched by him back there. And my job was to, Ginger would reach down. I'd hand him a quart of milk. He would chug it and then just throw the carton, you know. So by the end of the night, and it was amazing, Quest, watching him double, you know, he was technically, you know, it was amazing watching him. By the end of the night, I'm sitting there and I'm covered with milk. And Ginger And Ginger gets up and doesn't say one word to me. He doesn't say, thanks a lot, kid, nothing, just like, couldn't be bothered to say, hey, thanks a lot, you know.

Jake, this is the promo. This is the clip. Work on this. Work on this now. So that was my only interaction with Ginger Baker. But I got to tell you, it was staggeringly cool to be that close to him and watching him play. When I saw that you did it, my question to you was, how did you survive Ginger Baker? Okay, that's the nicest.

Now, he would just, and he'd just throw the quart and it would hit me in. As if you weren't there? Yeah, and I had this silver bucket with all the ice and the courts of milk. And they said, now, kid, be sure that you open the spout so it's ready. And when Ginger grabs him, it's ready to go and he can just chug it, you know. I guess it soothed his ulcers. But so later on, as the years went on, and I heard all these stories about Mr. Baker that I realized,

well, that seems to be kind of... And of course, I did get to know Jack Bruce quite well and did stuff with Jack, and I was telling Jack. And he said, well, man, that's, you know, that's ginger. Did you appreciate how close you were to the fire or... Oh, yeah. I mean, again, man, you know, like, you know better than anybody. Like, at a Beyonce show, you wouldn't get anywhere near her.

Yeah. Or, you know. But no. in those days it was more relaxed, like it wasn't big security. No, I'd come out during... No, Peter Grant, like... No, and... Well, for Blind Faith, like, I would come out during the day and sit on a case, and Eric would come out with his Red Thru-35 and his Marshall Stacks, like in the Cream Days.

He was still in that. And he would just play for like 30 minutes in the hall by himself, and I was just sitting there watching that. And it was life-changing. I mean, to be around that stuff. Nowadays, you wouldn't get near them, but in those days, it was different. Quest, it was just like... all the security stuff that we have now, it's all blown up.

It's kind of like you said earlier about the sound systems. I mean, it was just different then. They weren't huge, huge stars like they are now, you know. Okay, so, you know, I would imagine one of the burdens of coming out so strong is that, you know, there's a portion of the audience

that's just attached to that particular work or not. What, and don't say all of them, but what projects, are near and dear, like close to you, that you felt were overlooked that we should pay attention to? Well, I mean, you know, it's like when you have kids, you know, the little ones are always the kind of most precious and all that. So as much as I'm so proud of the first work I did,

I've made 12 records over the years. And the later ones like Secret Ladder and Dr. Faith, they're kind of in this later area. Those two are just, I think, really, really, and Dr. Faith in particular, there's no keyboards on the record. It's all guitars, textures, and stuff. So I think Dr. Faith's Secret Ladder or two I'm extremely proud of. I think the songwriting holds up, you know, try not to let the record have any cereal on it. Every record.

So those two, I think, are worth a listen. But, you know, and they're fans that know them, but they didn't sell. I mean, collectively, the Lex 10 records after my first two, you know, sold hardly anything compared to the first two. You know, so, but I've always done what I love to do, and I did it from my heart. And so I'm not really doing any new work at the moment, but super proud of all that work. And we do play those songs in the show, because I insist on at least trying to expose the audience to some of these later tunes. And I'll inevitably get some social media, stuff, I say, hey, why didn't you play hunger or one of these obscure tunes? I said, well, you know, no one really cares, you know, but people do care.

But so it's a hard balance because I think two-thirds of the audience comes for Arthur, say, where I'd like to win those songs, you know. So of those 12 records, what's the most creative, rebellious thing that you've done that I'm not aware of? Interesting, you know, about Secret Ladder, it's a thing where it's got a guitar, acoustic guitar, and people are climbing out of the sound hole

up the frets to heaven, you know, to the clouds. And Jimmy, when I was on the show with you, Jimmy wanted a album to show, and I said, well, we only put it on a CD, on having an album. Jimmy had one made up, and he showed it, you know. And then Jimmy said to me, when I was standing out there, he said, this is like the coolest idea. Like, who can't, you know, this is cool with the guitar, because he plays guitar. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, I digress. What did you ask me? Oh, no, just, have you ever done anything rebellious creatively?

Well, there's a song on, um. Your rap record with the dust buzzers. Yeah. There's a, there's a song on, um, album called Every Turn of the World is my third record. and a song called Charmed the Snake, and it's pretty aggressive. And I think it kind of hurt me at radio because radio just couldn't play it. It was just too rock for them, you know? But it's...

And actually, I think Henley at one point told me it was like one of the favorite things I've done because it was kind of like Sunset Grill or something. You know, it was pretty aggressive. Right. And I used this weird instrument called the synthax and stuff. But anyway, that's kind of an outside track for me. But by that time, I was cemented as the balladeer.

and radio just couldn't handle it playing, you know. I wasn't going to get played on album radio, and it was too aggressive for pop radio, and I kind of just fell down the middle, but that's probably the tune that's probably the most, you know. What's the best advice that you were given and subsequently? What's the advice that you are glad that you ignored?

You know, I think McDonald at one point said, you know, bad or good, like the yacht rock thing, Mike said, you know, bad or good, when people are talking about you, they're, you know, mentioning you, that's a good thing. You know, it's like, I'm glad to be humiliated or whatever it takes. I'll take, you know. But, yeah, you know, I think it's, as far as what to tell people. I mean, send your tape to the wrong guy, you know.

Oh, that's a good one. I mean, it's, our business, as you know, it's so tough. There's so few people. I thank the audience every night for their support because I said there's so many musicians that I know, and don't know who never had this opportunity to sit up here and play their music. music for people, you know. And so I think people like Carl Wilson and Brian and people like this that I got to meet who, you know, just recognized me and, you know, as an artist and all that kind of thing. Even like Paul, you know, like McCarty, apparently, you know, there's a book where

John Lennon, I guess, talks about sailing and he was a big fan and all this stuff and I never got to be John. But I asked Paul about and Paul said, well, I don't know per se, you know, that about that particular thing, but I know that we all had your record. And I'm like, now, wait. a minute. You all had my record? He goes, well, everybody had your record. And you do know that everyone had your record. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. You're the Beatles. You had, so, you know, those kinds of moments where John Lennon, you know, those are the things that validate you to where, like I told Johnny Mitchell once, I said, I told me, I said, I want to write down everything you say, but I said, you know, I hope, I wish my music could mean as much to someone as yours does to me.

and she said, well, you know, I like her music and it's like some people don't like my voice or don't like my music, you know. And she said, so I'm not sure, right. But she was just being gracious. But she said, so, you know, you do what you do. And, you know, some people embrace some people don't, you know, and I think. And these friendships that I've had over the years, like Randy Newman, people like this that I revere so much that, you know, I just feel somewhat validated. Like I said, people like Brian Wilson. And in my house, I have framed one Christmas Eve.

I got the tube in the mail, and it was an orchestral piece of paper with God Only Knows written out signed by Brian. Oh, wow. And I have it. And I asked Brian why he sent it to me. He said, well, because I know how much you love Carl. And he sang that. I thought you'd like to have it.

You still have it, right? I do. And Carl said to me once, Carl said, when we were doing all these vocal sessions, he said, we make a nice sound. I love that. So all these little validations, I think, you know, in spite of the meteoric early success and that stuff means the world to me, you know. What's your favorite

Mitchell album? Well, Hegera. Really? Well, I mean, listen, blue, cord and spark, blue for the roses. I mean, I can, that's when I like Steely Dan, like don't make me pick, but if, I mean, Hazira is when she got with Jaco.

Is it because of Zaco? Well, no, it just opened up her head. And I think, even more than Summerloins? Well, Edith in the Kingpin. Don't make me choose. But, yeah, I think. Certainly he did, but Hezera, like I heard that Joan said to some bass player, can you play something besides the root?

And he said, lady, I'm a bass player. I got four strings. That's what I do. And she said, but there's this guy in Florida. I'll give you his number. He does that kind of shit. And it was jaco. Oh, God.

She called him, and he flew out to L.A. And Joan said immediately we had a conversation musically. But I feel like Hazira, but his thing's amazing. Like I said, Edith in the Kingpin and, you know. I mean, it's incredible. I mean, there's not a bad piece of music in any of that stuff. I mean, blue is incredible. Ladies and the Can all that.

But for the roses is one that Lydwicks on all that stuff. I love that stuff. I mean, I've. But I Jare, for you is the. Yeah. And I love it. I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining.

But it's just everyone always goes to that. But I always feel like that's like saying thrillers your favorite album or Songs in the Key of Life, or Sargent Pepper's. And no one, I think, I still say that hissing of the summer lawns is her... Well, it's right. I agree with that. I mean, like Coyote in those tunes, off. But, you know, with Stevie, it's interesting because not probably...

Songs of the Key of Life, yes, but like Superwoman was on... Music of My Mind. Yeah, I mean, that to me. Oh, no. There's nothing like music of my mind. Songs of the Key of Life, but Music of My Mind, I mean, that record is one that really, really got me, you know. I'm with you there. Before I close, my final question is,

because of the iconic Flamingo artwork on your album covers, where is the original drawing that adorned the debut album? I think, I would hope that Warner's probably has it, because what happened was when Jimmy Newhouse, this drummer came in with, it was an album-shaped-sized thing, but the watercolor was covering the page. It wasn't in the green, right? and he said, I think this is what your music looks like.

Hung it on the wall, kind of like a focal point. And then when I went to Warner's, we got the album deal. You know, they put up 50 records a month. I said, what do you think about this? And they said, you know, that's cool. I said, okay. So then they had this guy flown our homes in Atlanta, kind of put the green around it and all that. But somewhere Pete Johnson,

or one of the art people at Warner's is probably in the Warner's archive somewhere where they kept it because I gave it to him to draw the original thing with it. But originally it was almost like a Johnny Mitchell watercolor, but the whole album was just that lagoon scene, and then he put it in the circle. And the Flamingo has no particular, everybody asks me like, what's the significance? It's just kind of like Linda Ronstadt's heart, you know.

It just became a thing that people identified me with. So now, at one point when the record stopped selling very well, one of the guys said, I think we should take the Flamigo out back and beat the shit out of it. Oh, man. Well, Christopher Cross, I thank you so much. This is, like, even as you were talking, I think this is the first time I had an out-of-body experience where I actually said to myself, like, wow, I feel like I'm listening to the world's coolest music podcast. Then I was like, idiot, this is your podcast. Right. No, but I'm too kind. I'm honored to be here. I'm a massive fan. And, yeah, thrilled to call you a friend, and I'm just glad to spend the time with you. It's great.

Thank you for embracing me. And I thank you so much. And, yo, the great Christopher. across on the Questlove show and we will see you on the next round people. All right. Questlove show is hosted by me Amir Questlove Thompson. The executive producers are Sean G. Brian Calhoun and me.

Produced by Brittany Benjamin and Jake Payne. Produced for Eyehart by Noel Brown. Edited by Alex Conroy. IHart video support by Mark Canton. Logos, graphics, and animation by Nick Palo. Additional support by Lance Coleman.

Special thanks to Kathy Brom. Special thanks to Sugar Steve Mandel. Please subscribe, rate, review, and share the Questlove show wherever you stream your podcast. Make sure you follow us on socials. That's at QLS. Check out hundreds and hundreds of QLS. episodes including the Questlove

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