The Questlove Show - QLS Classic: Ben Vereen

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

In 2024, Ben Vereen joined Questlove Supreme with his daughter Kabara. Quest' recently called this one of the most powerful QLS episodes in the show's history. What began as a conversation about a legendary, award-winning career in theater, film, and television organically went someplace much deeper. Ben Vereen shared discoveries about his identity and traces his knowledge of self while speaking about Roots, Sweet Charity, and his unforgettable appearance on The Fresh Prince Of Bel-Air. This QLS episode is a powder keg of emotions, realizations, and timely calls for history and truth from one of our great elders, who is finishing his memoir.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange, modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern.

Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marncini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Good people. What's up? This is Questlove. And our recent final episode, of Team Supreme, I mentioned that one of my most underrated episodes of QLS was this particular one right here. It's our conversation with Ben Breen. We taped this less than a year ago, and I think it's worth pushing into your feed for our Monday QLS classic.

Ben shared a lot of things about his life that really hit hard, and in particular that that episode of the Fresh Prince of Bel Air was a lot bigger than just a role. as you'll hear. Ben and his daughter also talk about roots and why the role of Chicken George and that mini-series were so significant. And truthfully, I've been thinking about this episode since we taped it back in 2024. And let's listen back together. Classic encore edition of Vimvereen on Questlove Supreme. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Questlove Supreme. I'm much love your host. We are here with the fam. Laia, hello.

Were you right now? You're in L.A.? I'm in semi-L-A. Yes. Yes. Your wall situation is so unique. Every episode I see a new part of your house I never knew existed before.

That's hilarious. Unpaid bills. Yes. Sir, good to see you. Everything's well. I can't complain. I'm drinking coffee for QLS, which is a new vibe,

but I'm super into it. Right, exactly. New vibes. I'm drinking Apple Sire Lemonade. Or it sounds disgusting. The opposite of limiting. Brags is, but that's that thing. That's good.

That's what you drink first in the morning. That's good, Amir. Exactly. Exactly. Sugar Steve, what's that, brother? Good morning, everybody. How's it going? Very well.

Thank you. That's good to hear. Good to hear. What can I say, ladies and gentlemen? We, you know, we're about checking off our bucket list dream interviews. And our guest today is a legend of the big screen, the big stage. and of the recording studio, depending on your generation or your taste. Certain, if my mom were here, she'd go nuts over the fact that, you know,

the star Pippin or Sweet Charity or hair or all that jazz is with us. Our guest today is one of the first actors that my parents approved of me watching. If you're, you know, I mentioned many times that television really wasn't looked upon. unless it was like Sesame Street or music. But Roots was required watching. And I watched all that show, even at the age of five. So the fact that the character, Chicken George, is here in front of me like is mind-blowing.

Of course, if you're 80s baby, I'm sure, Laia, are you an 80s baby or 90s baby? Today I'll be 80s. I'll be 80s. All right. Of course, who you remember him in Webster. Yeah, even for Gen Z Society that lives for memes, of course, we know Ms. Will's dad or on the Fresh Prince of Bill there. We are in the company of greatness right now.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the Tony Award winning, Ben Vareen, and also, not to mention, his daughter, Cabarra, who also helped organize this for us. Welcome to Questlef Supreme. Hello, how are y'all doing? Hello, thank you. So I'd be here. waiting for this quite a long time, sir. You've had my friends on, and I went,

what are you going to have me on? No, we're going to have you on. Right now, where are you talking to us from? What part of the world are you in? I'm in New York City at the Dance Theater of Harlem, Arthur Mitchell's Dance Theater of Harlem, and I'm honored to be, I'm working with my daughter on her new piece

that she's doing called The Resurrection of Osiris. It's going to be at the Met on January 17th, I'm directing it. And so we're in rehearsal right now. And I'm honored to be here at Arthur Mitchell's because I remember I remember Utah I had a conversation with Glenn Turman, my good friend. And we went to the high school performing arts together. And there was one photo that encouraged me on the wall there.

And it was Arthur Mitchell. It was in his beautiful dance pose on the wall. And I said, wow. And I later became good friends with him. And now I'm in his studio. So thank you, Arthur. So you went to school with Clint Herman at a performing art school. At this, performing art school, yeah.

What time period was this, if you don't mind me asking? A 1904. The good old days. I'm only asking that because, you know, when I was in first grade in the mid-70s, my parents made a big deal of, you know, you're going to a new type of school. where you're going to do like acting, art, music, dancing, like all those things. And I was led to believe that schools of that caliber were unique to the 70s. Like, I was part of the first generation of performing art schools.

So you're telling me that they were performing art schools. Oh, yes, before then, it was the 50s. I started in the 50s, I believe, late 50s. I got there in the 60s, and I believe it just began to take on form. It was called a high school for the performing arts. It later is now called LaGuardia. They moved up on 10th Avenue. But we were the first.

It was music and art and performing arts. And we had a rival. You know, we were saying, no, music and art ain't nothing. You got to go to performing arts. You know, it's like, yeah. So in the 50s, you went to a performing arts high school in New York that we still know as the fame school.

Right. You're blowing my mind that there was even... the idea of black and white students going to school together, studying the arts. So what was that experience like for you? You can understand something. The arts is the one thread that keeps civilization going. We are all creative aspects of the creator that created us. So the arts is the one thing that's going to propel us into whatever experiences we're going to have in this lifetime.

So they can't hold back the arts. And also wonder about that time. Because you know in the 60s, that's when Martin is the King and it's from Malcolm Max. That's the streets, you know, the hippies and the whole movement. So that was all happening then. So performing arts, I got lucky because they needed boys for the dance department. Now, Glenn was coming up from acting. I knew nothing about the arts.

I'm from the church. I sang with sensational twilight to Brooklyn, you know. Brooklyn was my home. And when I went to the high school of performing arts, it was a whole new world, man. The arts became a new word in my vocabulary. I saw dances for the first time. I saw serious musicians for the first time. I saw serious actors.

You talk about Bennett Carroll. You know, yes, Ben Carroll was there. It was integrated, as we called in those days. So there was a lot of stigma on me as an elementary school student concerning the arts. It was already like, oh, you're one of those. weirdo kids, at least like, you know, coming to my neighborhood to go to a performing art school automatically made me kind of like a social outcast. Now, here's the thing. Music was always my thing. But for the first year and a half of me going to that school, the school was like, before you get on

that drum set, you got to coordinate your rhythm. And so they brought a pair of tap dance shoes. And they're like, you're going to have to learn how to dance first before we let you on that drum set. Of course, being the 70s, what the 70s were, there was a lot of stigma. Oh, you're dancing. You're dancing. Was the idea of dance expression a stigma for you in the 50s as it was for me in the 70s? The 60s. 60s. Okay. Or so yeah. I'm, okay, I'm proud of. I'm, I'm, people ask me how old are I said, remember Moses? But here's the thing about, I also went through that stigma because I ran with gangs, you know. I ran with the cross-air laws and, you know, the bishops and the chaplains and all those guys in Brooklyn.

So there I was going, all of a sudden, I remember my mother getting a list of things required for me to go into the dance department. I knew nothing about the drama department. I probably would have, of the acting department. I probably would love to try it out for that. But the wonderful thing I had a guy named David Wood who talked about the importance of telling you story through dance and through movement. But the point is that in my neighborhood,

if I came home, now I've got to get a dance bag, I got to get tights. I got to get a dance belt. I don't wear a jumpsuit, yeah. Ballet slippers? Yeah. You kidding. I was walking about Broganz and, you know,

Garrison. I was, you know, a tough kid. And now I got to wear valet slippers. I wouldn't tell anybody where I was going when I went out for school. And so they said, man, wasn't that bag. Yeah, man. Wasn't a bag, man. And nothing.

It's my school stuff. Let's see. No, that run. Yeah, it was tough. There was something when you came across that bridge. And you got in that dance studio, a whole new world opened up. Magic. It's beautiful.

Was it cathartic for you? He might say. Sounds it. Yeah. But that relationship with the neighborhood is so fascinating because we were talking before you got on. Of course, the kind of beautiful, there's a lot of alignment between some Questlove Supreme Guests and yourself. We talked about Glenn Termin. But when you told that story about the ballet slippers and being in the neighborhood, it made me think about Prodigy in that way.

In the picture of him, who you know is Little Albert. I'm sorry. I know his rap name is Prodigy, but you knew him as Little Albert at Cabar. What was the dance studio? Bernie Johnson, who is a very famous dance. Yeah, I imagine he had the same issues as a little boy coming up with being in a dance school that his grandmother had built. So I was just wondering if you guys, if you remember that as he was a little boy and that common thread with you guys in that way, that's interesting. Yeah, we, you know, once we were together, the world didn't matter.

It was about us and doing what we did. We had fun. We loved the dance. We love, you know, the expression of telling our story through dance. And I go into a studio and just take a record player and just for hours, just dance. You know, do all sorts of makeup stories, make up stories for myself through dance. Did you look at someone on TV? Was there a dancer, like, that you used to watch, that you admired?

I'm curious who you look to in that way. Well, there was many dancers to look to. And I didn't, I wasn't into the concert world, into you're going to see Martha Graham, I'm going to see George Balanchine. Matter of fact, when I came to the studio to the school that day, and I never forget this. I care. You know, they said that to make him dance.

So I remember to dance to Quincy Jones is Killer Joe. I wore up here in a remuda shorts, U.S. kids, sneakers, a t-shirt, my father's skinny brim hat. I'm sitting on aside waiting to go on. And I'm watching all these other kids dancing to Balanchine, rashing to Chopin and, you know, and all these deep cats. I thought, wow. And I got them to do my dance. There was white people sitting at the table. I don't know where they were. So I got them and did my little cool. Dita. Da, da, I thought I was pretty cool. I sat down and the sent you a story. There was a lady named Dr. Rachel Yonkham. And she came over me, she said, how did you do? She said, you like the school? I said, yes, I. She said, it's I. I. I see, it's I. Said, you mean all right? I said, yes, I.

She said, what's your name? I said, Benjamin. She said, what? I said, Benjamin. She said, you mean Benjamin? I said, yeah, Benjamin. What's wrong with you? Well, do you like to school?

Yes, I. She's okay. And then she said, do you know these people at the table? I said, no, this white people are me. He said, you don't know George Balanchi? No. Martha Graham? No.

Jerome Robbins? No. Who were they? Wow. I had no idea of these people who had, would carve the importance of dance into our culture. But I later found out about Catherine Dunham. I later found out about Judith Jamison. I needed to find out about Alvin.

Rest and peace. Yes. And to be able to say that and have the experience of meeting them and walking the same path of them and having them call me friend. I'm blessed, man. Because, you know, you dipped your hand or your toe into so many creative waters. Normally I ask, what was your first musical memory? But I would like to know from you, what's the first thing that you created? What was your first moment that you realize I'm a creative?

I know that you were born in North Carolina. I don't know when you moved to Brooklyn. But at what point do you realize that you're artistic? Like, what was your first creative project in life? I wasn't born in North Carolina. My biological mother is from Lomburg, North Carolina. I was born in Florida, Dade County, Florida. You see, the arts is tricky, and it's wonderful.

I'm writing my book now, my memoirs, and I remember playing in the streets and I remember having little dance parties. You know, after school, we do these little dances. It's white gentleman's coming down the street one day on Fulton Street. And it was right through in the 50s, and they were soliciting for your young boys, young kids to put into the art school, dance school, because it's right around the time when the civil rights are starting out. And so they want to make sure their windows weren't broken. So they have some of you black kids in the school.

And that's how I got into the start time dance studio. But I never thought about the fact of my creative aspect. That was just part of me. It was natural. I loved to sing. I love to dance and parties. I didn't have a form to it. I didn't call it modern dance.

I didn't call it ballet. I didn't call it tap. And an interesting thing, I lived right across the street from a shoeshine parlor called tip, tap, and toe. These are brothers who were in vaudeville. And I wondered why these guys on Sundays, because in those days, they had a blue law in Brooklyn. That means they didn't buy any liquor. So every Sunday, you see a line wrapped around the block getting these deacons, getting their shoes shine. Because brothers were being in there.

Oh. Get online and stand and get their shoes shine. So these guys are going to tip tap and talk. You hear the rag snapping. You have jazz music playing. And these brothers sit back there. And he'd be singing then, you know, shuffle back and then snap the rag. Back, back, back, chica, peck.

And then they have a hand out little Dixie cups, a whiskey. And so the lines around the corner, the brothers, before they go. the church, they had to have their little shot. All right, that makes sense. Because even today, you know, like you're always seeing these terror card businesses, these random terror card businesses, and, you know, you'll see them in Atlantic City or New York or like any cosmopolitan city. And I always wondered for the life of me, how are these businesses thriving, like a woman

or anyone reading your future? I just found out that those are basically people that have sort of in place owner, or renter's law. In other words, that place used to be a residency, but then once a business district is established, you're not supposed to live in a business district. So basically, it's sort of an underhanded way of the city saying, you can still live here, but you have to be a business. So thus, any time you see a tarot card reading or let me read your future,

it's just a residence, but they have to have a storefront that's like a business. business and a wink. So that now that makes sense that shoeshine people really had a side business of moonshine speak-eas while you get your shoes shine. That makes sense now. That makes total sense. They didn't sell liquor on Sundays. Same from Pennsylvania. So wait, New York was a blue law state as well? Yeah. They had the blue law in New York City. I never knew that. That's right. But the thing is, is that, like, I have my toes also dipped in various waters, but, like, for me, drumming is always my passion. If you just had one thing to say that's what I'm known for, for you, because, again, you're known for you're singing, you're acting, everything, you're direct.

What is the one medium in the arts that you say is your North Star? Employment. Preach. Oh, shit. That's you. Come on now, Mayor. At this point, that's you too. Yeah, but if it's all taken away from me, leave me a drum set. Yeah. Leave me a drum set. Yeah. For me, it's leaving my voice. Let me tell my story.

Through song, through dance, you know, tell my story. Let me give it to the young people. Let me pass it on. I've lived such a life that it's nice. to say, here it's yours. Now go. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry.

We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-P-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George

Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode, with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in someone's, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Gregalespian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news. at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Take me through your life as a creative. What was your first step into a profession? I just graduated from high school for the performing arts. There's a woman there named Vinette Carroll. and she was doing a show called The Prodical Sun

off Broadway at the Greenwich News Theater You're talking about a professional show, right? I never knew anything about my Broadway or the theater I had never been on a Broadway stage until Bob Fawcett. But I go to the show, it was in the Greenwich News Theater, it was downstairs, a little theater, and that was my first production. And one night I'm coming out of the theater

I was in my first son of been born. And I was late getting to the theater. I had to spend time with my first wife and got back to the theater. The dance captain had taken my role and gave it to his lover. And I wasn't going to have that because it was my role. So I went on stage anyway. So it was stage where I said, they can't do that. I said, no, they can't.

So I went on stage. I got dressed. Went on stage and we're fighting during the show on stage. I mean, he's in my place. I'm hitting him. He's hitting me. And people must have said. They're going, wow, this show is so real. I got it. So I come off stage. I'm angry. I'm leaving the theater. I'm going to Glenn's house, you know, to get myself cold off.

And there's a little guy sitting outside the door. And he says, excuse me? Yeah, what do you want? He says, I'm looking for Benjamin Verena. I'm Benjamin. What do you want? He said, you look like you can use the dinner. My name is Langston News. Whoa. Whoa. Oh, you can't just, you just dropped that. You did. You did. I did. Yeah, took me to dinner. You said, you look like, you got out. We buy your dinner. So he took me a little, to a little Italian joint in the village. And we sat and talked. And he told me about himself and told me how he's written to play and invited me up to Harlem for the first time. So that was my first professional job.

and the time would buy. And the next time I got a job was, you'll read about in the book. I was on a subway. I jumped in turnstile. I went to New York City. I was standing on the court. I went by my school. I was really depressed.

I went by performing arts. I looked at school and going, where am I going? What's going to happen? And I walked down to the newsstand and I opened up a newspaper backstage. And there's audition for that day for a show called Sweet Charity, going to a place called Las Vegas. starring a woman named Julia Proust,

directed by Bob Fossey. And that was the first time I was up on Broadway Sturge at the Palace Theater. I went to an audition. It was like the opening of all that jazz. Yes. And that was one of those kids

on the stage. Stand there watching this cool guy who walked down the middle of the aisle smoking a cigarette. He gets up on stage. He does a demonstration for us to do and the ashes never fall. I said, this guy.

Never. He just smoked to the, in and the ashes just grew and grew. But he did the combination. Turns and boom and steps and step, boom. And they stopped and go, you take the, okay, do the steps. We couldn't do the step because who's too busy watching the ashes? See if they didn't fall.

Okay, so my mother is, you know, probably the show's biggest fan, and she will scream on me. you dropped so many names that she'll scream on me if I don't go into further detail. My mom's from Pittsburgh. Okay, I'm going to ask about Bob Fawsey, but you mentioned the legendary Martha Graham. You studied under, what was it like studying under Martha Graham? Well, I didn't actually have a class with Martha Graham. I studied with one of her dancers named David Woods.

Okay. He was one of the teachers there. It was amazing. You know, for me, getting into them, look, the first day of school, they have you line up, and then they have you change, and you get dressed for your class, you go to your classes. And my first day in school, I wore my suit that I wore with sensational trials to Brooklyn. My mother bought me an attach case. I still don't like my attache case.

And then they said, go get dressed. All the guys went and put on their dance clothes. I put on my dance clothes, put my suit back on. because that's where I was raised. You don't just walk around your underwear. So I get back out there, my suit on. She said, excuse me, Dr. Oaksa. You're taking class today?

I said, yes. She said, well, where's your dance clothes? I said, under my suit. You can't dance that way. Get in there. Put on your dance clothes. And that was the beginning of wonderment. Wow.

But David Woods, who was really the foundation of my acting as well. Because he would tell us, he'd say, you can't just dance. It's got to tell a story. So find the story that you want to tell through your movement. And that's why dance is so personal to me. You know, in modern dance, you must tell a story. It isn't about just steps. It's about emotion.

It's about the story that you're telling. Although it may not be, the choreographer may not, is telling you his story, but you've got to find your story within the movement. What makes you move this way? What makes you sing this way? What makes you tell your story through drama, through the word this way? You have to create it, at least for me, you have to relate to something within you that connects to that emotion. And that's how we dance.

That's how I danced. For a lot of us, at least for my generation, this conversation is really transformational as far as like my mind state. because I think every person thinks that their era in the world is the kind of, you know, black and white to color, Wizard of Oz thing. Like, everyone thinks like, oh, when I was born, then suddenly modern times began. But, you know, I would assume that until roots came along, that a lot of African Americans weren't even thinking in terms of their history going back to Africa, unless, you know, they were of the generation that watched Tarzan as a kid in the 50s and 60s.

But the Marcus Garby movement and he was down with that. Right. So what I'm asking you is when you're told to tell your story and the vocabulary of our African history really wasn't super enforced unless you were part of a specialized movements, in your mind when you are expressing yourself and reaching inside for your emotions and through dance, what is it that drove you creatively? Like, what are you thinking of when they're telling you, tell your story? Well, I'm thinking of my emotional feelings and what I feel in that moment of that story.

Makes sense? All right? If I have, say, for example, if I tell a story of my, let's see, keep it simple, we're going to performing us. What did that make you feel like? How did you feel the first day you stepped on that stage? And when you stepped into that studio, what was the feelings you were feeling? What's that story that you want to tell right there?

And then that creates a whole movement. Yes, for us coming up in ours, as far as we're talking about ancestry now, we're talking about black history, in my school coming up in my era, it was one paragraph, you're a slave and Lincoln freed you, you know, and we know that's not true. And long comes a wonderful man named Alex Haley, who says, I'm going to be a little man named Alex Haley, He says, I'm going to watch that because it's not true. And he goes back to Gambia and he finds his rich roots. And he writes a wonderful book called Roots.

And we all now say, and now the world is going, whoa, wait a me, we're waking up. There was more to it than this what's in our history books. There's more to my story. You see, it's so interesting. When Roots came out, it was just the book. And I'd heard about it. And like a lot of us did. and I just knew I wanted to be a part of that movie, that TV series.

And I went to my agent and I said to him, listen, there's this book. I think ABC is going to make a movie out of it called Roots. And I really, I'd like to try out for it. He says to me, Ben, you're a song and dance man. They're looking for actors. He said, so listen, there's this group that's starting out. You've got a big hit called, Oh, We're All You. families, Sister Sledge, he says, they're going to open for you in Chicago.

So why don't you go do that? And you have another gig for you guys down in Savannah. So I said, yeah, but Kenny said, Ben, they're looking for actors. So I get on the brain, I go to Chicago, Susan Sledge, they open to be a wonderful these little girls, little girls. And we get to Savannah, Georgia. I used to do a character called Bert Williams about my ancestry, about the performer. There was a time in American history where black people who in the theater were not allowed on stage unless we wore blackface.

And he went through that. So I told that story. And coming at the show that afternoon in Savannah, Georgia, there was a guy who came backstage. His name was Stan Margulies. And he said, I want you to be my chicken George. And I said, what's the chicken George? He said, we're doing a show called Roots. He said,

And I said, I don't care, man, if chicken, George's guy in the boat going, let me out of here, let me out here. Please, please, I'll be there. And that's how I got to run. I had no idea how deep it was going to go. And, I mean, it opened up a whole avenue for me and for all of us to look back

and honor our ancestry, which we must continue to do to stay forward. Because our ancestry are the reason why we're here today, their struggle, their fight, their determination to go through slavery. Imagine coming across the water, having, being stolen from your family, and you're putting on chains, chains, what's a chain? And you're being put on a boat and you put to an island and you've gone away with a bunch of

people you've never seen they're white. and you see a bunch of other people your color were not the same languages and we're all chained inside this boat and some are jumping off the side because they refuse to go into they don't know what's going to happen they don't want to be a part of it

but the bravery of those people who went through that passage and stood on that slave block and watched their families being torn apart which I think in my mind destroyed our cultural togetherness, that strength. And to tell their stories to be forgotten, no, no, not on my watch.

How long did they give you to prepare that role? Take us through the process of preparing, executing, and then leaving that character. I never left that character, boy. All right, chicken chores. Well, for me, it was. was all because understand. My family, we never sat around and talked about then because we were surviving in the now. My family was the educators or the, you know, they were not of that elk.

You know, they were field workers, you know, survivors. And so we never sat around and talked about education, about government, about what's going on. day-to-day survival. So when I got this, I knew there was a deeper story. When I got the opportunity to tell my story, it was like, how do I find my research? So I call my elders. You know, can you tell me about what it was like doing this time, that time? And a lot of it came from imagination, once again, what it must have felt like.

And Chicken George is so beautiful. You know, the one thing I do is that when I get to a character, especially someone like chicken George, I ask permission to enter into that realm of consciousness. And what is what it's been like for you? Educate me. Teach me. And he took me on his journey. And I tell you, the respect and the admiration that the cast and the crew had doing that, it was amazing.

It was amazing. Did it feel safe? Did they provide like a, because, you know, in 2020, if you guys made this in 2024 or 25, there would be all kind of counseling on set. And, you know, when you broke out of character, there'd be somebody to make sure, are you okay? Like, how did y'all handle that? No, no, not in 2024.

Sorry to jump in now. Please, go, please, Kabar. That will come later. Oh, not in 2024. My bad. Okay. Yeah, yeah, not in 2020. During that time, it was self-nurturing.

And that's what I say the crew, even the crew, was aware that we were touching upon something that was, in other words, I hate to use this word, but taboo. You don't talk about this stuff. But the respect and the reverence that the crew had and would like the scenes, like one scene,

I never get the scene where Richard Roundtree was dating my mother at times, Leslie Young, who's playing kissing. And there's a scene where she had talked him into taking her to find her father. And they go back, and they're late coming back to the plantation. And his Masa at the time was supposed to chastise him.

And Richard Roundtree was supposed to beg for him not to beat him. And I'll never get this. Richard said, you want me to grovel to a white man? Do you know why I am? Mm-hmm. I don't gobble for no white man. And the director said, said, Richard, we need this just for the next scene. He said, in order to move, he said, you can do this.

He says, I ain't groveled in the no white man. It's like that. And he said, well, just one time. He said, he looked around. He looked at Kizzy and my boy, Leslie, looked at the cast, he went, the crew, he went, you got one shot. And he gets down, he does that scene where he says, please boss or my answer, don't beat me.

And we just finished the director said, cut, okay, that was a good friend. Everybody go home. That was a one taker? It was a one taker. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Because it was like, I mean, all of a sudden, we had to reflect on the fact that what it must have been like to have to gobble to white people for our survival.

They have to beg, you know, when I think about my, oh, don't get me started. I think about what our people went through as slaves, kings, inventors, doctors, leaders being stripped. We built empires and civilizations. And now we are the bottom of the chain. They gave us slop, but we made it a cuisine. We made it a cuisine. I can't even get to that extent of thought. It makes me think of also the artists who have had to play these roles.

And it's funny because as you said, as you said, this was a taboo thing. And now it's not. Now we've had several movies that have followed. And it makes me think about all the black actors who have had to tackle these roles, like from Chouaitel E. Joe Ford to Jamie Fox to Lapita and Yango. And I'm curious if anybody ever reached back to you and went, how did you do this? How did you do this? It's an interesting thing because we.

who were there at the first beginning, are waiting to say, this is how we did it. Because what annoys, I love my brother, Levar Burden, love him. Mm-hmm. He felt that maybe,

let me take it this way, but he never allowed us to talk to the cast, to say, what did you go through? How did you get there at this point? Oh, with the newer roots. Are you talking about the new roots? The newer roots.

So, okay, they did a good job. as far as they could do. But we could have given them another layer that's much deeper because we were there. I was curious about, thank you for answering that question. We cried and wept at terms of what to do, but we knew we had to do it for the art and to tell the truth story. As far as Hollywood will allow us to tell the true story.

You understand, roots just scratched upon the surface so what really went down. But what really went down, you get into those wounds, you go deeper, there were nights. I come home and my wife, Nancy, she go, you okay? I say, yeah. At nights, I was just being tears. And you're about, okay, okay, let me get myself ready. Okay, let's go do the scene.

And although I was playing chicken George, it was like a dandy, but there was that moment when he finds out his father's white. His mother had gone through. And watching your fellow names. brother's sister, they whipped because they didn't want to pick up something. They didn't want to do something. They said the same wrong thing because they were field niggas, then the house niggas. Of course, it was treated a little better with the field niggins.

Telling those stories. And I think those stories have not been told enough. As long as my Jewish brothers and sisters can tell us about the Holocaust, we must talk about our holocaust. Excuse me. Agreed. Let's go to the game so we know where we are going. Otherwise, they will do it to us again. 2%.

That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more. to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress.

Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-P-P-Cent on the I-Hart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite Athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford

and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jette. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent

episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American. history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular

test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Gregalespian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County, as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Did this journey at all make you want to go back to your own roots and find out about who you are? And can you talk about that a little bit? When I was with Sammy Davis Jr., I was finishing a movie. called Sweet Charity with Showton McLean. Yep. I met with Sammy Davis Jr. And Sammy, and I was, I was really pissed to Sammy. Why?

Well, Sam went on TV, television in those days. We had three channels. The fourth channel came out. And he said, well, you know, I know how hard it is for us in this business. So there any young, black entertainer out there, I think, no. In those days, we were Negroes. Mm-hmm. And colored.

Negroes. Right. And want to talk to me, I'm open to talking to him. So you know how much courage it took for me to get up this kid from Brooklyn? And we opened Caesar's Palace. I'm there, Caesar's Palace. And I'm going into the casino, which I'm hearing stories. Lino Horn and Hurl Belly, have to be in trailers outside and walk through the slop before they got on stage.

Now I'm staying in a hotel, in an apartment right across the street from Caesar's Palace. And I'm coming in there. I'm standing. I see Joe Zulus walking down and how tomorrow were giving money. And I'm still giving me money to gamble. I mean, I'm like, wow, I'm scared for Brooklyn. Look at me. And then Sammy says he'll talk to me. Yeah? Yeah. So I'm waiting one day for Sammy to come to the New Roos Nook, which is in the lounge. There were people like checkmates would hang out and the platters and hang out.

And so he was coming and walking with 50 of his closest friends. So I walk over and I go, um, um, um, um, Mr. Mr. Davis, I heard that he said, talk to my secretary. I went, what? Really? Oh, okay. So then I get the show, Sweet Charity. I'm on tour with Cheevera.

He ended up in Canada. I get a telegram. I'm doing Daddy Rubeck, a role in the show. You know, I got to sing my own solo. I was excited. I left Bob Foskey and trusted build this role. Now I get this telegram. You want you to come to Hollywood

The star in the movie Sweet Charity Wow, I'm going to do you doing the role Oh, Daddy Brubach Then I get to the movie They said, no, Sammy Davis is going to do this role So had an attitude Take my role too, man, I have nothing

Do with you He came in and walks in and says Sammy's too sick to do the role I'm like, whoa, I'm up for the part, yeah So I'm standing on line And who should walk through the door in a wheelchair Sammy Davis Jr. And everybody goes, oh, Sam, oh, Sam.

Oh, Sam. Oh, Sam, I go, I sit back. So Sam notices I have this attitude, right? He goes, hey, don't go forward to Australia. Bride everybody, invite everybody over. We're going to have this luncheon with everybody. Everybody goes, I stand outside. So Sammy sends over one of his henchmen.

He says, Mr. Davis liked to have dinner with you in Little Santa Monica. I said, yeah, right. Cool. I got so excited. I bought brand new suit. I got to the hotel like an hour before, right? I mean, through the Russell. I said, my name is Benjamin Verene. And Mr. Davis, somebody said, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, not in here, you know.

Let's see if you're on this. See, let's listen. Benjamin. So, yeah. Okay, come in. So I go to his long table. And I'm sitting at his long table. I got there like at 6.30. We want to be there at 7. things there. And I'm looking around the room, there's Joey Bishop, there's Dean Martin, there's Shal Lucio Ball, all these celebrities sitting around the room. And I'm sitting there's

this long table smoking, waiting for Sammy. 9.30, no Sammy. I'm sitting there. I said, nine. I said, okay. So you guys, you like coming. So I got up, I started to leave. Who walks in, Sammy with the same 50 closest friends? He says, oh, sit down, sit down. Sit down. He says, I did a show called Golden Boy some years ago on Broadway, and think about doing it again, taking it to London. So now it's a different time because we had the Black Panthers. There's a black movement going on, and we need somebody who's angry, who's defiant, and his agent says,

nudging to go ask him for the role. And what? He said, asking for the role. I said, Mr. Davis said, you got the role. So he hires me to do Polar for it, right? We says, now we're going to do the show in Chicago. Then we're going to London. And he says, we have a passport.

I said, no, I don't have a passport. He said, oh, he said, okay, just write down to where you were born and they'll send you your birth certificate and got the passport and you're gone. I said, okay. So I write down to Florida, Miami, Florida. I get this letter back saying, we do not have a Benjamin Augustus Marine, born to an Essie Varan. However, we do have a born to a Pauline Varian. However, we do have a Benjamin Augustus Middleton born to an Essie Middle, East McMillton, on that

date. What? Wait. And that's how you found your roots. So I call my mother. I say, Mom, you've got to call these people. I'm Sammy Davis Jones taking them to London. And I need my passport. I need And they said, I read a letter. And she went, it was quiet. I said, Mom?

Whoa. And she said, I was hoping you'd never know. And that's why you had my journey. Then my daughter, when I had my daughters, you know, they came to me, babies came to me and said, Dad, all we have is mom. And we don't have any, we're going to have children one day. And we didn't know who's in our, So I said, okay, so I started searching.

I was down in Mexico and ran into a friend named Lafiba, Roxy Lafever. And this lady and I got to talk and went to Mexico to get a vitamin drip because in those days, you invited in the States. Back then? Back then. So I go down to, I meet her, and we go to dinner. And I started, she starts telling me she's a genealogist. So I said, oh, yeah. She said, well, I and I started telling my story.

She said, well, why don't we go? go searching. So I go to her office in Washington and she's work for the Pearson, and that's when the journey began. And I found my family about, what is it, Kabara, 16 years ago? Yeah, 15 years ago around. And here's the, here's the ironic thing. It's all read this in the book. The book is much better than this interview. This interview is much better than your career retrospective. This might be my favorite episode of Questleaf Supreme. I did not know this was coming. So we start searching. And here's a wonderful story.

When I got married in a very young age, it was to the bishop's daughter of the holiness church. When I find my family, come to find out my grandfather was the originator of the holiness churches in the south, Pearson's. Now, here's the thing. my first father-in-law, we go to a place in Connecticut. Haven, New Haven, Connecticut. We had a thing called Conflication.

That's where, you know, all the black churches get together and we celebrate together. And so when I found my family, I called my sister Gloria, and it was so weird. You know how it is. You know, you find you just like, it was, what a conversation. I said, hello? She said, hi. I said, Gloria? She said, yeah.

I said, my name is Benjamin. I'm your brother. She said, yeah, they're telling me. He told me that. So how she found out, she said, there's someone called and said, you better sit down. She said, why? She said, another brother. He said, I know I got a brother.

He said, no, you better sit out. Yeah, she said, it's your older sister, huh? Older sister. Yeah. You have a, yeah, his name is. Benjamin? She said, Benjamin?

She said, yeah, she said, I got my, Eugene. I got, she said, no, you have another brother. His name is Ben Vereen. You better sit down. So I call her and I say who I am, introduced myself. And they said that year they were having the, my family, part of the family was the Pearson's. And so in Connecticut.

Now, I lived an hour away. for my mother my entire life and never never never and here's the thing we're sitting at the table at the reunion and my wife there my children my grandchildren and we're sitting there celebrating there was only supposed to be 50 or 60 people showing up there was a hundred or 200 people showed up when they found out as part of the family they all come to connecticut we're sitting at the table and in walks my first wife's aunt. And she looks at me. She said, you're Essie's son?

Oh, God. Yes, she said, Essie was my best friend. I could have been in church with my first family sitting next to my mother and never knew it. And it's heartbreaking because she also really admired him as an artist and she was a fan of his. And she would, when he was on television, she would shut off. She would tell everybody to be quiet because she had to have full attention on my father's performances. But she didn't know that was her son. It's so heartbreaking.

She said, didn't know. And I, I, no, I'm messed up. She was gone when I found her. But you got to stand some, in the black community in those days, they do things like that. Yeah, we, yeah. Yeah, it's like you just send somebody off or you. You know, you just like, you know, look, the formerly lived upstairs with us on Hercuba Street. She had 14 kids because the government, they said, you don't have to work, just have babies.

So she'd have babies, you know. And there was a lot of that going on in what they call the ghetto. Yeah. And so my mother, the story I got was my mother just came from New Orleans, where she got into student altercation and being a book. And she's working as an orderly at the hospital in Miami. She was coming home one night, she told me. It was raining, and she was standing in the hallway. And there was this woman standing beside us, pregnant, and they got a conversation.

They was Essie. They got a conversation going on. And she invited a woman home to her home. And she said a few days later, she had prects. I came. And she said she went to work, came home, and there was a note beside me saying, I don't want to take it. And she said, okay, little man, let's go to New York City. And it's an interesting thing about that scenario.

Because I told my sister, I said, I'm sorry. I wasn't here for you as a brother. She looked at me, she said, don't be sorry. She said, you came with us. She probably wouldn't be been buried. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental

toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2% that's T-W-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me,

Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you're just saying, I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Now you're finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former Bachelor's star Clayton Eckerd, found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so much, correct? I doctored the test ones.

It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Alespian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young.

This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeartRour. radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I was going to ask you, how conflicted do you feel because you had to go through

your life in order to get to this very place right now? But I know there has to be a part of you that wonders in an alternate reality where you're with your actual family. that somehow you might serendipously wind up in this same position. Like, how long did it take you to process and really, did it make you feel complete as a human? Did it leave you more conflicted about your history? It's still a question because my father,

I have yet to find that family, the Middletons. All I know is he died in for the Middletons. all I know is he died in Philadelphia and so we don't know we don't know if that's truly the father to dad we're still trying to figure out the identity of the father the true identity do how would you do that

Kamar how do y'all even get to Skip Gates well we're we've been in touch with Skip Gates hopefully we're going to be on next season and but we've been in that process for a while but we'd love you know I would have assumed he would have been find my roots because, duh, it's obvious.

You'd say. Well, not many people were privy to the story, and you're right. Even right now, I mean, I'm not spoiled or learning because you wrote about in this book, Maurice White of Earth, When and Fire, same thing. He was five years old. His mom gave him to the next door neighbor. And she went off to Chicago, had a fit, you know, got lucky, married a doctor, had seven children.

Wow. Maris joins her at 18, but there's something inherently broken inside of Maris White Soul that he was given away that even though he miraculously kind of wound up in a metaphysical self-love space, at least musically and creatively to teach us to love ourselves, you know, Afrocentrician and all that stuff. But that, I believe. the emotional blockage that Marys had with really not coming to grips with I was so unlovable. No one wanted me.

I felt personally led to his Parkinson's disease. Well, let's not go there. Oh, gosh. The scars still, I'm dealing with cord ways, taking me some very strange places. You've read out in the book. But I mean. Can I ask, did you go through any sort of therapeutic process to sort of deal with that feeling, that emotion? So it doesn't live inside you?

Well, you know, it's going to always live inside of you. How to process your life through that. I've been through many counselors and people like that and try to help me. But it really comes down to individual choice of what you choose to be today. and how you live each day in processing your life. Acceptance is a big word. Acceptance. And I'm grateful that for my journey,

would I have done it differently had I known baby so, but I can't say that because I am not the one who's controlling the spiritual aspect of my life. I have my human aspect, which is going on the journey that the spirit wants to experience through me. but had I known I don't know

I can't say I know what I know today and I'm grateful on the Quest Love show okay I wasn't going to make a big brouha of this only because you have such an expansive

career that I know where you go in that I didn't want to reduce it to this question that I now feel like I have to ask you yes yo man I'm I'm you Oh, God. You remember the Matthew Knowles episode where...

Hang on. Oh, shit. I'm sorry. What's wrong? What's going on? Look, for the last year and a half in hearing these stories, Slidestone, Earth went and fire, this really hits me in my heart. Only because the reason why I keep growing up,

grappling with emotions is again, as human beings, we're really not, you know, we're taught to suck it up, you know, man up. You're really not process our emotions. And I was wondering, like, how we dealt with this for 500 years? And you explained that through dance, through music, through me drumming, perhaps, maybe that's how I get my rage out, my, you know, that sort of thing. But the reason why your episode of the Fresh Prince of Bell Air resonates so much with my generation and millennials and Gen Z is we all felt Will Smith's pain. And we, you know, the whole fighting, I'm going to be a man. I'm going to be all right. Like that whole Martin, I'm going to be all right.

Like we're taught to suck in the tears and not show like, I won't let you see me sweat or see me cry or any sort of as a sign of defeat. Knowing what you knew about your own family history, were the creators of the Fresh Prince of Bel Air or Will Smith himself, were any of them aware? No. You didn't share with them? No. This information hasn't been really shared. publicly. Wow. I thank you for sharing that because it's it's it's it's touching me. They knew nothing about this, hadn't been talking about this. I've kept it to myself. I'm just

beginning to open up about this, but they should choose me to tell this story at that time in my life. And here we are talking about it. It was a very deep subject for all of us. How was that to shoot? that, what did it make it in your head? Or were you just a consummate professional and just, you know, tell that story, find the seed of that story and sharing it and being that man who rejected his son because of his background, his fear, his pain. You know, that moment when I'm silent, I went through so much in that silence is not being said when I'm walking out the door was nobody saw that pain.

but I went through personally. So I had no words for it. And the writers had no idea this was going down. Why they chose to write this particular show for me. Or why Will said, I want him to do this part. Oh. They didn't know. But the university, and it was beginning of this conversation we're having right now.

And as a daughter, it was a hard thing to watch. as well because my father growing up was always on the road. You know, and when everyone thinks, you know, when you're this kid of a, I hate to use the word celebrity, how lucky you are. You have this privileged life and everything's great and you're at these fabulous parties and your parents are ever present. But no, I would tell people, when you see my father on television, that's time that he's not with me.

He's not with my siblings. And especially when we were young, you know, the only times we would see him is during breaks for school and he was working because those were prime times. And, you know, people thought it was cool because at one point he was hosting all the Disney specials, you know, in the holidays. And yeah, great, you get to cut the line at Disney, but I still don't have my father, you know. My mother was amazing. She did everything that she could within herself. but we also had to grapple and watching that episode for me was especially emotional because, you know. It was going through your head when you saw it.

Well, it was an interesting time in my life period, but I was probably in college around that time. And my father and I had gone through a lot. Like just emotionally, we've always had this like kind of hard relationship because even as a little kid, it was this whole thing of dad's coming home. Oh my God, dad's home. and I would kind of stand back because I was resentful because I didn't have time with my dad. And then it was always the limos here. Okay, the assistants are here putting everything in the car and he's off again, you know.

And I always was kind of the defiant one. I remember this one instance. I don't know if you remember this dad. We were living in Saddle River because my parents decided to move us out of Hollywood. So it was about eight at the time and, you know, spoiled, had the Apple computer and the television in my room and everything like that. And I said something to you, Dad, and you were getting ready to go somewhere

because the limo was outside. He was dressed up in his tucks. And he said, you said what to me? And I said whatever I said. And he, like, was coming at me. And I was in my nightgown, getting ready to go to bed. I got up and I ran across this property we had, huge property.

And I remember standing in this creek that we had because I knew he didn't have time to come into that creek. after me. And we just looking at each other. You got you're jamming, bam, you better get out of that creek. You better get out. You better come here and talk

to me as your father and said, uh-uh. He's like, I'm taking everything out of your room. And I was just like, okay, great, because you're not going to be there when I get back. You know? So that part, when I, you know, we had this relationship for a very long time. And when I did see the episode, I felt that pain. on the other side of it where he felt the pain as the adult leaving the child.

So it is very emotional, I think, for all of the kids. So, you know, in fact of that character and the character that I have had to be in my life, and I miss those moments now of being there for them, it's an emptiness that I grovel with every day. You did what? Why wasn't I there? But I was raised of a mindset of my mother was about providing. And so she would often say to me, you know, we'd be sitting around our tenement building.

And, you know, all we have one is a little pop belly stove. And she'd say to me, Bunny, because she couldn't pronounce Benjamin. And the mother stood this. She couldn't pronounce Benjamin. Now look at my father. They always called me Joe or she called me Bunny. Yeah, Bunny. if all we have is a donut, you eat the donut, and I'll eat the hole.

Oh, wow. So, you know, that was the way I was raised. And so when this opportunity of showbiz fell upon me, all I knew was to do was provide and got caught up in the madness. This is all you read about all this in the book. But it's about that missing part, which I grapple with. As a daughter, I don't want him to be. feel guilty about it because I'm very privileged.

You know, I don't have college loans. Right. You know, that was all paid for. And you can afford the work to the mental work in the counseling to. Yes, yes. And my father and I have had this tremendous journey. And it's heavy on my heart that he has this guilt. Because, Gabara, the fact that y'all is sharing this, I just got to say, and I know

Amir is feeling this too. Like, this is the result of having a black boomer. Daddy. Like this trauma is not, you are not alone in this thing. What's your genetic? Yeah. It is. It's your father's trauma. Yeah. Because the beautiful thing to me, as I look at you guys and beautiful daughters, where we are now, where you are with him, wherever he goes and how you take care of him is just along with my sister Karan. You and Karan. I'm sorry, yes. Yeah. On Malacca, she's out there somewhere. Yeah. We love you, Malika.

The way the girls take care of you, I should say. How many children in total? I had four. I had five children. I had a nausea whom I lost an automobile accident and my son. Okay. So I have three daughters, beautiful daughters. And I'm so honored and privileged. I'm honored.

The honest I'm blessed. I'm truly blessed. Yeah, daughters take care of you different, right? Yes, they do. I recommend the people who were handling me in my business. I mean, I've had some messed up people in my life who did not even think about my children. I was in rehab in Utah, a place called CERC. And I had my bowel.

I've had my bouts at alcohol and drugs and things. And I find my last cleanup. And I'll never forget Ron and my wife came up for counseling. And this has never happened. And I never forget her sitting there and saying, you do not like what it's like being the wife of Ben Vareen. And she said there were times that had to go through his pockets to find money to pay for my babies to eat. I hit the ceiling. I had no idea.

The robbery had been happening to my children. And I looked and I said, never mind me. are babies. Why didn't you go up and say where excuse the expression are the effing books? I want to see the books. Why are my babies? Why do I have to go to my husband's pockets

to find money? And I'm busting my ass, not spending time my babies. Keep them back in yachts and houses and things like that. That's another part of this interview. What another day? That's a whole book. When is this book coming out? Hopefully the next 10 months.

Probably about 10 months. In the title. Thank you for the journey. I say that when people ask me, you know, you say, you know, we all God, you're such a legend. I say thank you for receiving. Both of you, I would not be here. I would not have the journey. I wouldn't be here.

My daughter, I wouldn't be here talking to the Unquest Love. Mm-hmm. You see? So, thank you for the journey. Usually when our listenership comes to the show, it's more factual things than, like, a person's story. Oops. I want to. I want to.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I apologize in advance. Look, I have a lot of 10-speed and Brownshoe questions. I wanted to know what it was like winning for Pippin, what Bob Fawse, he was like, all these things that you've been through. But for me, this is a way more important story, the totality of your career achievements. And yes, I do implore everyone to get this book. Man, I'm just, damn, yeah, I wanted to ask about Al Perryman and Dan. You're right, Amir.

There's so many professional questions. Yeah, we can still ask them. Let's rapid fire question. Okay, so Ben, can you talk about, because we talked about black dance back in like the 60s and 70s, and you talked about how, you know, it wasn't a thing where you would see us on those stages and on TV, but there were. So my father, as well, a New Yorker of your age, and he too is an artist, photographer and a drummer, and he took a lot of photos of the black dancers of that time. And I just wanted you to speak about, like, he spoke about Al Perryman, and he spoke about just this black dance scene.

And I've seen these beautiful photos of the black dancers going to mount the park where Amir shot his documentary. And so can you just talk about how, and then you kind of see it when you watch The Wiz and you see all this black dance at the end, you know, brand new day. And you see all these dancers of that time. Can you just. George Face on. George Face. You know, we had him on the show. George Face.

Yes. Michael Peters. Come on. Michael Peters. Mike, you know, I see what this year. I was, I've been watching. They call it not Instagram, you know, young people who did and all this stuff. You don't have new work we did.

But anyway, I'm watching all this. And then now finally they're recognizing that Michael Jackson is a product of Michael Peters. Oh, come on, beat it. Yeah. I mean, before, I mean, he was doing all that Motown stuff. But then he met Michael Peters and broke out the whole new moonwalk and all these thrillers. things, beat it. Can I ask, was Lester Wilson also part of that?

Lester Wilson was the foundation for all of us. At Bernie Johnson's dance studio, at the school, we would go by Jerry Grimes, Winston Hemsley, Michael Peters, Lorraine Fields. Debbie Allen, I shout around too, yeah. We all go to Bernie Johnson, and there was Lester Wilson with Chief Bay, playing Cunga. And we'd be dancing. And he would give us, oh, he was such a smooth, beautiful dancer. Bob Fawcet loved Lester Wilson.

He talked about Lester Wilson, all of his moves and how liquid and fluid he was. I look at him, my God, it was so fluid, so beautiful. Oh, I miss you, Lester. I was so angry when he died, so angry. so foolish but yeah Lester Wilson yeah yeah yeah

I'm glad he had documented all of us thank you you're telling stories about people and I just don't want them to ever forget the power of Judith Jameson since we recently lost her what do you what comes to mind when we say Judith Jameson Stature of beauty

and fluidity she was the queen Yes. Ooh. Talk about cry. She cried for all of us. Oh, I love Judith. I'm glad she came to my life.

That's sitting in the studio. I'll just watch her. Ooh. Yeah. So this journey in your life you're on right now and working on what is it that you want us to know? Especially in terms of you being, in your instructor phase, your choreography phase, your director phase.

What is it that you want this particular generation, those born in the 90s, in the 2000s? We attach to the rhetoric that you're human is listening to. Always know there's a power within you greater than that outside of you. And stay in touch with who you've come to this planet to be. You'll get all the rhetoric from education, edgimication, and you'll get all the rhetoric from society, what they're going through. But you understand that within you is a core of creation. And whatever you need to do to stay there, get there. Get there.

And breathe that in and breathe that out for all of us. That's what I want you to do. That's what I want you to know who you are. Well, I'm good. Have a good day. That's a mic drop moment. It's such a, it's such, I just got to say it's a blessing to be a child of, my, my dad calls you guys the last of the new children, this generation. You know, I said to Kabara and to Charlie, Melbaugh's daughter, I was like, you guys are of a generation of creation that was just broke all of these barriers for people and also New Yorkers.

And so the poet, just the, the rhythm of when you just talk is like, unmanned. match and we can never lose it. Just a treasure. I just, we honor you. Thank you. This is a great emotional episode of Questlove Supreme. Sererity. Fantastic.

I thank you, Kabar, and Ben, for really being open because oftentimes artists are taught to not overshare or that stuff. But I think now, especially where we are, it's about honesty about who we are and what we're going through and things aren't perfect. I think, you know, I too thought I was alone. I am also a son of a traveling musician, father and mother that had to go through the same thing. And, you know, you often think that you're isolated. But I really, this is not just lip service.

This moment right now, me speaking to you, like, I needed to have this conversation. And I love you too for it. And thank you very much for that. Anytime. This is an awesome episode. So connecting with Kabara in that way in mere too because peers you're right you're not alone. Exactly. Yeah, I'm surprised we didn't run into each other up in the borsch belt when we were

right. No, you know what it's weird? I felt as though you and I have cross paths. I know we have common, like friends in common and whatnot. This is great to meet you this way. And I, you know, I appreciate it. On behalf of, on your sugar, Steve and unpaid bill and Laia, Kabara. Ben Vermean, thank you very much.

This is Questlove Supreme, and we will see you on the next goal. Thank you. Hey, thank y'all for listening to Questlove Supreme. This podcast is hosted by an Afro, a mouth, an engineer, and a man with too many jobs, aka Amir Questlove Thompson, Lai, St. Clair, Steve, Mandel, and Unpaid Bill Sherman. The executive producers will get paid the big bucks. Amir Questlove Thompson, Sean G, and Brian Calhoun. Ask them for money.

produced by the people who do all the real work, Britney Benjamin, Jake Payne, and yes, flyier St. Clair. Edited by another person who does the real work, Alex Conroy. And those who approve the real work, produced for IHeart by Noel Brown. Watch Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio.

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