The Questlove Show - QLS Classic: Christian McBride

Episode Date: July 15, 2024

American jazz virtuoso and bassist Christian McBride talks about playing with Miles Davis as a high schooler, the "ins and outs" of his craft and how he got himself all tangled up in James Brown's world.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

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Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm Daniel Alarcon, and this is my friend. This is much more famous than I am. I wouldn't go that far. But I'm John Green, co-host of the podcast The Away End with my old friend Daniel. On our podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup.

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This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. What's up, everybody? This is on Pay Bill. This week's QLS classic is with bassist Christian McBride. He recalls attending the same high school as Amir, playing on some incredible jazz records and a Miles Davis story you do not want to miss. Here it is, episode 68 from January 24th, 2018. Peace. Suprema Role.

This Fonte, yeah. Y'all know I'm feeling it. Yeah. Here with two thirds. Yeah. Philadelphia experiment. Roll call Supremma. So that's time.

Subrama. We're tuned Suprema. Yeah. We set the pace. Yeah. We got them drums. Yeah. We got them bass.

Go on. Okay. Suprema. Subrema. So, Suprema. Roca. Sub prima roll call. Neck bones and candy ams.

Yeah. Turnips, smothered steak. Yeah. Grits and gravy. I do it. Cracking bread. Roll call. Suprema.

How we're going to do that? Suprema. Role call. Islaeam. Yeah. No question. That's right. Yeah.

Billy in the house. Yeah. Yep. Christian McBride. Roll call. Suprema. Suprema. Suprema.

Supreme. Roll call. Suprema. Surimma. Suprima. Sur. Supreme. Supreme.

This is McVryrd. You seriously? You got me... Yeah. I'm freestyling? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

So, Suprema roll call. Suprema, sub, sub, sub, sub. That was the greatest improvisational musician of our generation. Suprema, sub, sub, subprima role call. Supremma, sub, sub, suprema roll call. Wait, the biggest surprise of that all was Laeer not making. making our guest her third line. Yeah, yeah.

Is that what I usually do? Oh, really? Because Christopher Rhapsie. Right. Yeah, that's the standard laia ball. I should have brought my bass. That, you know, now you know next time. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of,

I'm about to say the Christian McBride Diaries. This is Questlove Supreme with Team Suprema. Say hello, guys. How you doing? Good you gang, goji gang, goji gang, good again. With us today, you know, I'll say that we've had many hip-hop debate on the show, but I will still maintain that jazz is probably the most argued and the most debated genre of music.

Its fans are very passionate, and it's, you know, all opinions are subject. but I will As arguments are my favorite Yes Indeed To watch Oh to watch Not to be in

Yes Yeah because you got to have your data But I will I will say that In my opinion I believe that our guest Today is Without a doubt

Probably The greatest Living musician Of his generation And you know of currently in jazz right now. I mean, I feel as though he is the spiritual epicenter,

one foot rooted in the tradition, the other foot rooted in experimenting and going outside out of the rim. That's all I can say about one of my favorite people ever. Christian Lee McBride, welcome to Questlebe Supreme. What an honor, homie. Yeah. That's sweet of you.

I never knew you. felt that way. Come on, bro. I study you, bro. Vice versa. I know who I'm messing with. So are y'all the same age? Are you all the same generation? This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. Even at the age of 15, Christians sounded like a 35-year-old. See, this is why I'm excited because I want to hear all these stories about y'all being young and being in high school together. The way that he talks right now, like I

I thought maybe he was a teacher's assistant. In school he wore like, like right now he's wearing sneakers. I don't think I've maybe a few times I've seen you wear a sneaker. Like he always wore suits. Oh wow. And he was clean. You know what I mean? So I, my first day of Performing Arts School where we went, all right, the history of us is that Christian and I went to creative and performing arts high school in Philadelphia.

at the same time that Boysterman went there Amelabrew grew theory Is your same class? Same class? He and I are class of I'm proud of my age

89 89, baby 19, 89 Oh, you look good. Thank you. I know it was I was looking at Christian, but Yeah, but I'll say that

for me there's a point where I guess in your teens you got to get serious about about your craft and you know I mean pretty much people know the back story like I've been playing with my parents

and all and stuff since it's like three four or five years old you know and then my dad was like well you know there's there's going to be a time where it's going to stop being cute like you know you're five six seven years old behind the drum set playing like a dog

oh that's good he's so cute but there's a point where you're actually going to have to be good. And I will say that my first day of school at Creative and Performing Arts was probably the biggest wake up call

of my life, which has me here today. I consider that first day, the day where I was like, oh shit, I didn't know that there are other kids that play way better than I do. And, you know, because I didn't know, I didn't know any kids.

And, you know, people my age, like playing like I played with a bunch of all these cats that were like 1560. So meeting Chris, I mean on the first day of school, didn't Miles, didn't you guys do something with Miles Davis on the one? That was the, I think that was the following year. Y'all did something on Miles Davis on one of them local channel, three shows. Bill Boggs, used to have a talk show on daytime television in Philly.

They had Miles Davis as a guest. and they had this overly this naive romantic notion that they would have Miles Davis give a live workshop like a master class and they were quite he's mad standoffish

right I have to teach these niggas none well I don't know if he was standoffish but he was brutally honest you know he's a man that had no filter not even for a child because you had a

Ellis Marcell's moment. I think Miles Davis is thinking, well, like, if you're bold enough to put me on television with a nine-year-old kid, you're going to have to hear the truth. You know, so they had the house band, which was myself, Joey D. Francesco on keyboard and Stacy Dozier on drums, our old buddy. And they invited four trumpet players from the Philly school system to come and play and get Miles to critique them. Oh, no.

On live television. And not a good idea. Please, more. I need quotes. Like, what do he say about you? Well, he didn't, we weren't featured. Dude, they were the master. Like, that's what I'm saying.

Chris, Chris was already at master level. I don't know about that. But, see, we weren't playing. We were just there to back up the trumpet players. They didn't, we weren't on display. Who was some of the cast that were? Fred Goodson was one of the trumpet players. John Swana was one of the trumpet players.

Dahloud was one of the trumpet players And Jafar Barron How was Dajah Barron? How was Jafar? Like 11, 12? No, let's see, I would have been 16 So Jafar might have been 15 And I remember Miles punched him in the chest

Oh, damn! Wow Wow! Fuck the Fort Lord Nick! That's right. Miles gave him a straight left, right in the solar plexers, man. I couldn't believe it. Damn.

Wait a minute, I've known Jafar all these years. I've never heard that's the word. You never told you Miles punched him in the chest. But why did he punch him in the chest? Because after it was over, you know, we all went up to Miles to, you know, say hello. And then Miles, you know, kind of cased everyone up, you know, and he saw Jafar. He went, boom. You better practice, boy.

I love it. I love it. I love it. So what year was this? How old was Miles around that time? That would have been 88. So, um... Two, two years old.

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, Miles was 64, maybe. 62, 62. But that was on the second day of 11th grade, right? Something like, wasn't that early? I don't know if it was that early in the year, but it was sometime early in the year. I had missed, because my parents were on the road, I had missed technically, I think, the first two days of school.

So I came in on day three. Yeah. And I had already gotten word of, oh, my God, Bill found it already. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, okay. I wish I could see what I just saw. Yeah, but it was mad. Like, for me, the whole experience is mad, intimidating because every high school has this,

what set you claim. and moment. I mean, be it an actual what's that you claim a moment or you got to choose a click. You got to choose, yeah. And because you're at Performing Arts High School, I mean, there's different, you know, there's theater, dance, music. Creative writing, the whole thing. So then once you choose what you've got to do, but even inside those clicks, there are

other clicks. Some clicks. Yeah. And the thing was on the right side of things was Christopher McBride and Joey D. Francesco, whom I already knew of, like, seeing clips on the news, local news, and, you know, jazz, prodigies, Kristen and Vine, 13, 14, like, playing, like, and I don't mean like, oh, they're cute for 13-year-olds. No, they're playing, like, men. Yes.

But then on the left side of it, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Kurt Rosenwinkel, who worked on Q-Tips. He was on the abstract. Yeah, Komala Abstract record. So, Kurt Rosenwinkel is a year older than us. And so he has a whole other click. So basically I'm trying to choose which fork in the road am I going to go. Because these guys are talking traditional straight ahead jazz. But then Rosenwinkel's trying to unteach me everything that they're teaching me by like hit me to Frank Zappa, Mavishu Orchestra, like John McLaugh and all that stuff.

And then on top of that, you know, I got to survive up in the lunchroom and Tariq's with the cool kids. you know so it's just an honest boys and men over there on the side what were they even next generation we hung with them well I don't remember saying they had their own they strictly hung with the vocal cats

when Amir tells the story you always say they were already like together and packed no they were together they were singing trying to get girls and all that stuff but I mean just as far as what sets you claiming I definitely

you know Rosen Winkle was again the jay that's argument of do we file tradition in the 40s or do we move it ahead to the future? Marcelus Armandumet.

Now, but this is why he was such a saving grace for me when he came to high school because I had nobody to talk funk with. For my first two years of high school, I was just kind of in my own bubble when it came to funk. I mean, I enjoyed living in my own bubble. I could do that.

You know, I'm only child. You know, I'm cool with that. But then he's he's leaving out a very important part of his first day of school. He was playing the bass. He was just kind of noodling around on the upright bass. So I knew he was coming. They said, yeah, we got a new drummer coming in. Amir Thompson.

I was like, oh, cool, solid. And so I walk in the music room, and I see somebody on the bass. And I'm just kind of laying back, just chilling like, all right, well, who was this? And he's playing, doing it to death. He's playing James Brown on there. And I went, wait a minute. So I kind of walked up to him. I was like, yeah, what you know about James Brown?

He said, no, what you know about James Brown? It was. At that point, man, you don't know how much, how happy I was that you came around. And for our last two years of high school, it was great to have that outlet. I could go and really talk funk with him. mother load had come out in the jungle groove all them James Brown records. Right. And he studied Jabbo and Clyde Stubble Field, all those Al Jackson, all those great R&B and soul drummers,

the same way I would study Ray Brown or Paul Chambers or Charles Mingus or Ron Carter. And to the point where to this very day, should I reveal your nickname? Yeah. Yeah. So I've called him Clyde ever since the day I met him. because he's the closest to Clyde Stubblefield. Nobody else has studied Clines Stubblefield as thoroughly as he has and can actually play like Clyde's Doublefield.

So I've never called him Quest. I mean, you know, I do what I have to. You know, I understand circumstances. It's always been Bootsie and Clyde. Booty and Clyde. That's what we call each other, you know? All right. So, Chris, there's, I don't.

Yes, sir. Your, your music vocabulary. It's so broad that I don't know whether not to go with your story and your journey in jazz or just your opinions on music, period. We can go everywhere, baby. Well, we got to find out how he became a child genius, though. Yes, exactly. He will never admit this. So, well, I got to know, how old were you when you first started playing?

Nine. Nine years old, based on uncles or- Just like you. Okay. You know, my dad, B. Smith is also a bass player. My great uncle, Howard Cooper, also a base player. And so it's a family tradition. You know, I didn't really want to do anything else,

maybe pro football at one point. But it was always about the base. Did you play a ball for a little bit? Street football. Oh, okay. You know. You were in touch. I didn't know if you played for a team.

That's right. Car coming, car coming. That's right. That's right. That's right. One two three hold. Get on the J-bus. I'll fake it to you.

Oh, that's right. It was upright. That's what you started on? I started on electric bass. Oh, you started on electric? Yeah, and then I started playing the upright base when I was 11, and I was going to Pepper Middle School in Southwest Philly because I had to play in the orchestra.

Wait, where was Pepper? Now out near the airport. Yeah, I was going to say, that wasn't Bartram. Yeah, no, it was past Bartram. It was actually near like Sharon Hill. It was behind Bartram. Like past Penrose Park. It was like an hour to get to.

school. The suburbs? Yeah. Oh, big time. What would you take to get there? A chartered septa bus. No? Damn. What is that? A charter? What is a charter? Was there such a thing? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we basically took what was the G bus. Right. And, but it was specific, it went straight to pepper. Wow. Yeah. I never heard of such a thing. Yeah, man. And so the, the technical, the exact address was 84th in Lyons Avenue. The school's now closed. Doesn't exist.

But it was this, it was the school built on top of a swamp. There was always a prediction that the school would literally sink at some point. But yeah, it was out there near the airport near Island Avenue, past Lindberg Boulevard. It was way out there. But they had a great music program. So that's when I started playing the upright bass. Really? Yep.

And this is a public school? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. So then you went there all eight years of your... No, I went to Hamilton for elementary school from first to sixth. And then Pepper, seventh and eighth, and then Kappa, 9 through 12.

So what, when you went to Kappa, especially those two years before, at what point are you, you know, dedicating your life to Jets? At least the seriousness level that I saw you at. Like what? Well, there's a couple of things that happened. When I was in eighth grade still at Pepper, I met Joey. He was there too? No, but my string teacher, you remember Ms. Keith?

I think she was known as Miss Funk back then. Miss Funk, yeah, exactly. What a name. Yeah, I know, right? So she was my bass teacher at Pepper, and she said, I think you're good enough to go to settlement for their jazz program. And so I started going to settlement music school. And that's where I met Lovin Hines and Joey D. Francesco and Antonio Parker and Donald Ward, all these.

All the cats. All the cats. Right. And they were like, yo, you're in eighth grade? You ain't even supposed to be here until at least next year. But Joey was there. Right. So he was in eighth grade too.

So once I met Joey, we started practicing together. We started calling each other up on the phone every day. You know, you think, look, Joey D. Francesco was the real child prodig. because he was gigging. He was making gigs in Philly when he was like nine years old. Yes, he was. His feet could barely touch the organ pedals,

but, I mean, he knew like half the real book already. And the fact that... Oh, to explain. All right, so there's a real book and there's a fake book. And why do y'all use the fake book more than the real book? It's cheaper. It's easier to get your hands on. So the real book would be the Wikipedia

of all jazz songs in book form. So when you're a jazz musician coming up, a saxophone player, were there various books, were they just court charts? Well, they would have B-flat key, concert key, and E-flat key. So whatever is when you play. Exactly.

So it's like sheet music. Yeah. Yeah, but you basically, if you're a jazz musician, it would behoove you to at least know, at least 80% of. I love this book. Yeah. How big is it?

It's pretty thick. I would say about that big. You know, that's probably, 300 songs? What, what songs are they? Like, is it standards? Standards, you know, Autumn Leaves, Misty, you know, take the A-Train, all those standard jazz songs.

I mean, because part of the biggest challenge of being a jazz musician is learning repertoire, you know, because you get on stage with some of those older guys, you know, turn around to say, body and soul. They don't want to hear that, oh, I don't know that. But oh, I don't know that. It was like, well, what's you up here for? Get off the stage, you know. So that's part of the, that's the biggest challenge there

is just learning the repertoire. So how were you when you read music? When I started at Pepper, that's when I started learning reading music. So to the point where anybody can put anything, because the thing is that I, in my experience, musicians that are proficient at reading, I know cats that live on the stage,

they look at it, they can play everything, but their feelings off. But then I know cats that have awesome feel that can't read a lick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, what... Well, there was always a myth that, especially speaking to a lot of older jazz musicians,

they always had this thing, and they were scared to learn how to read because they said, well, if I learn how to read music, I'm not going to be able to get the feeling into it. But, I mean, I think that myth was shattered by so many great, legendary musicians. I mean, first of all, if you played in a big band, you had to learn how to read.

So, Dizzy, Gillespie, Charlie Parker, all these great musicians. I mean, obviously, they knew how to read music and write music as well. But once I started playing in the orchestra at age 11 at Pepper, started taking private lessons, and I had to learn how to read music.

And, you know, of course, at that time, you read music every day. So I was really good at it. You know, I think I consider myself a moderately good reader now because I don't do it every day. But if you would have, I don't want to put myself on the spot,

but there are varying degrees of, you know, challenge when it comes to the music that people give you to read. I'm fairly quick still. So just in front of you, can you play this and you look and... You know, I give it the once over, and right away, I just try to look for the problem spots, you know, just like, okay, what is that? Okay, I think I got it, you know.

And then nail it, okay. Yeah, that's kind of where I got off the train, because reading drum charts is, is boring. Well, no, it's just hard for me. I mean, I'm certain that if I seriously applied it, it wouldn't be anything. But, I mean, you know, just reading drum charts. And okay, so this is the kick pedal and that represents the snare and this represents the, like, there's so many hours of practice you have to put into that, which I don't think.

And there's so many different kinds of drum charts. Like, you know, sometimes they'll just give you a lead sheet with just the melody on it and you're left to your own devices on what the accent. To figure out what the accents are? Exactly. You know, some will give you an actual drum part where they have all of the slashes and all the stuff on top and underneath and like you said, you know. Yeah, no, I've seen like drum chart and I'm like, that shit makes no sense at all.

So when some of the older cats come, like, when Tony Bennett comes through, his guy, like, gave his jump charts and we're like, look at each other, like, he just, you know, gave his charge. We're like, oh, no. Just give us the MP3, bro. We'll say, straight up. Straight up. Well, you know, speaking of, you're talking about Kurt Rosenwinkel, and he was turning you on to the Maya Vishnu Orchestra. Well, I would say that John McLaughlin and the Maya Vishnu Orchestra, they had

legendaryly difficult music. Oh, yeah. None of it was in four. You know, it was all in nine and eleven, shifting back and forth. 5-4-5-8, 11-8, 11-8, and, you know, your eyes crossed listening to some of this music, right? Now, imagine reading it. When I went on tour with Chick-Korea and John McLaughlin in an all-star group called the Five-Piece Bad, P-E-A-C-E, I was literally scared. I thought Chick-Corea and John McLaughlin together, boy, I know I'm going to be doing some heavy reading on this tour.

and the great Vinnie Caliuda, former Frank Zappa drummer of all the people played on that tour. And John McLaughlin had this one tune. What was the name of this piece? I can't remember. But it was so difficult. I'll never forget, we had to jump on a conference call

with Chick, with Chick, Vinny Collieruta, and Kenny Garrett who played saxophone on the tour. And we're all sitting there trying to figure out, now, how are you hearing this? Are you hearing it in five? or you're getting it in 10 or I mean like what what where where's the downbeat where's the one part of me actually was relieved to hear chick Korea of all people

ask the question you know he was like man I'm having trouble finding out how to count this and I'm like okay I don't feel so bad at all oh man what's song was it and Vinnie Calyuta was like yeah we'll see think of the dotted quarter note it's like that's the actual quarter notes it's like doon do do do do And instead of counting it, like with the eighth note groove, and think of it as like a super slow fight. What was the name of that song? Oh, Old Blues, New Bruze.

That's the regular. That's the name of the song. Oh, wow, okay. Yeah. Old Blues. New Bruze. Damn, even my computer's like, R.

Yeah. Or New Blues, Old Brews. with blues and bruise in it. And like, so it's a slow five and it's got all these accents in the middle of it. And I'm in, I'm looking at this going, bro, I can't feel this.

And I'm thinking, well, we got a tour coming up. I better learn how to feel it and quit. Oh, so it wasn't any question of it. Well, maybe it's too difficult for you guys. So let me just. No, no, no. We had to, we had to buckle down and figure it out. And I'll tell you, the whole time we were on that tour,

when we played that song, could literally see me. I'm on stage going. Sweating. One, two, three, four, five, one, two. I was counting out loud and unashamed. I was like, I ain't getting lost in this tour. Wait, what year was this? 08, 08 and 09, we did that tour.

Oh, 10 years ago? Yeah. I'm thinking like, oh, post-high school? Oh, yeah, no, no, no. This was less than 10 years ago. Really? Yeah. A win is a win.

A win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment and the next we'll talk about life,

mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars, and now I guess also as the co-host of The Away End,

a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football,

all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football. Is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history, its hope, its heartbreak, and above all, its beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important.

Listen to the away end with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught.

Financial education is not. always about like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So how many years did you do at Juilliard before? I only stayed for a year.

That's because I started gigging pretty much right after school started. So why did you go to Juilliard? As you well know, I got to know Winton Marcellus toward our last couple of years of high school. And knowing that all my jazz heroes lived in New York, I said, I got to get to New York somehow, some way. So I knew I was going to go to college Well, I knew I was going to go to New York But as as cool as my mom is, I knew it wasn't going to be simple as, hey, mom, I want to move to New York

And become a professional jazz musician So I went to, I applied to the new school, Julia Art and the Manhattan School of Music. And one of those three, if I can get in Any one of those schools, at least I'll be here in New York. And I started working with Bobby Watson's Horizon Quintet, probably my first month in town. But that wasn't the first gig that actually took me on the road.

First time I went on the road was like on a steady basis, was probably, it was both Roy Hargrove's band and Freddie Hubbard's band. And this is after Julia. Yeah. So what point did you, because I think everyone has that thing. Like I did like half a semester then it's like, I got a record deal. I got a gig. So like for you.

What was it? I mean, did your mom know? Like, okay. I think she knew because once, I would say once May rolled around, May of 90, I was working a lot. So I knew the writing was on the wall. I said, my school work's going to suffer because I'm out playing every night. I'm either going to have to make a decision, either really focus on studies or go gig. So I called mom from a pay phone.

Remember those? Was it raining? Exactly. On 56th, right in front of Worldwide Plaza. I don't know why I was there, but I called her from there. I said, Mom, I don't think I want to go back to Juilliard next year. And it was this long, like, minute and a half pause over the phone. And I was like, Mom, you there?

She's like, yeah, I'm here. So what are you going to do? I was like, but, Mom, I'm gigging, you know, I'm working a lot and, you know, I'm making money. She's, where are you going to live? I was like, well, my friend Mark Carrey, Mark Carrey, who is. Oh, yeah, piano, keyboard, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was playing in Betty Carter's band at that time, and he had a place up in Harlem, and he had some extra space.

He said, I can move in with him. Well, I don't know Mark Carrey. I got me to make sure he's cool. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The thing is, you were always an adult to me, so seeing you having a mom, a youth mom moment. Yeah, man. Well, see, man, again, I'm going to go back to high school. I've always felt that both your parents, you know, my dad wasn't living with us, you know, when I was growing up.

But I'll never forget how much, how tightly knit your family was, man. and I always thought of your dad, both your parents and my mom the same way. They did not let us get away with too much, man. They didn't play it. They weren't hearing none of that crazy mess, you know. And my mom always loved you, man. She liked the fact that I think she also liked the fact

that I now had a funk brother. You know, she was like, God, finally, somebody else you could listen to James Brown with. Oh boy. So what was, you said the first gig you did was with Hubbard? Well, that was like my first major,

major gig after I left Philly. What is that like? Like, is it intimidating from, you know, studying? I know that you guys, like I didn't realize the point, you know, you guys are like reciting silos to each other.

And I was like, whoa, I got to now study. There was one point when, When you and Joey were listening to, I'll never forget, you had Larry Young's unity. Right. Not Zoltron. That was the first guy.

Zoltan, yeah. But it's the second song. Monct's dream? Yes. It was it was? I think it was Monk's dream. Yeah. Yes, it was Monk's dream.

It was Moon Train. But you guys were literally reciting every. you know, now I know that's common in jazz music but I was like, wait, why are they, they're studying the solo's like, that's how far I got to go into this thing? Yeah, but you did that, man.

Well, I did it to survive. See, I did for survival because it's like if you can't get respect from, I mean, it's like in jail like you gotta hit the biggest motherfucker right, right. Like you see the biggest motherfucker that you hit them. Like, you had to speak their language.

No, I think it's survival on that, on our end too because... Well, y'all used to also, if the cat was sad, y'all would... Y'all wouldn't even let him know. He's like, oh man, that's a cat so sad, man. I didn't want to be the sad cat that... Well, you know what used to crack me up.

Do you remember how Joey and Kurt used to... See, Joey, see, I feel bad because Joey's not here to defend himself. When we were in high school, boy, Joey used to mess with Kurt, like, terribly. Yes. Because Kurt was, you know, he was... He was super...

He was not a traditional kind of guy. He was playing great stuff, but it wasn't like straight traditional jazz. So he'd be in the practice room and, you know, he would be on the piano. I actually didn't even know Kurt played guitar because he played a lot of piano in high school. Really? Yeah. So the first, doing freshman and... Well, I knew he played guitar, but I thought that was a secondary instrument because I always just see him on piano all the time.

So he would be on the piano and be playing all these weird kind of, you know, polychords. and all this stuff, and Joey, Joey would come behind and be like, man, what is that shit, man? Why don't you play some blues? And Kirby, like, get out of here, man, leave me alone. And Joey's like, man, that's bullshit. Get out of here.

All right, so this leads me to, I will say that with, as far as Winton's concerned. Yeah. You've heard all the arguments. I'm certain that you've heard both sides. Oh, yeah. Of.

I've been deep in the eye of that hurricane. I understand that. Now, I mean, part of the, me just from where I stand in hip hop. Where we stand in hip hop? I mean, like, no one wants to be seen as the grumpy old traditionalist and the guy that's only hanging on to the flag and that sort of thing.

And, you know, especially with hip hop, you got older cats that need to contextualize their coolness by cosigning something young, some progressive. Like Quincy's the king of that. Quincy always talks like he has a cough job in his mouth. Yeah, I love him. but it's like

I've heard everything and probably the best analogy I heard that Winton has more as far as hip-hop comparisons I've heard a jazz guy that I respect very much say that Winton is the puffy of the jazz movement.

In other words there was a point where I guess in 78 where the M-Base collective and all those guys were trying to push forward. I mean, if you ask a cat like Dave Murray. David Murray. I mean, his thing is like,

well, you know, he came in a suit and killed our movement. So, but then, but I know that it's about tradition. Right. And then when he did the, the, the, the, documentary with, uh, on PBS. The jetwood, Ken Burns. Yeah. Yeah. And that really

didn't help his argument. This is true. Much. Yeah. I mean, I appreciated it because there's stuff I didn't know about King. A lot of people got turned off by that. Right. So it's like where... Including jazz musicians. Right.

Especially jazz musicians. So where do you stand as far as what he represents? I think Winton Marcellus was absolutely necessary for what it was that he did. I do think, you know that old saying about the, you know, killing. a fly with a rifle. You know, I do think... That's deep. I do think that in his desire

to uphold the traditions of jazz, I think he was quite divisive and harsh on a lot of musicians that came before and in some cases after him. Came after, yeah. Who really

didn't see things the same way he did. I do find an interest in that, you know, you look at jazz in the 70s and you look at what was hot at that time, you know, the whole loft scene that was going on in New York. You know, this sort of, I don't know what you would call it, this sort of

post-ar-law guard kind of movement. You know, Lester Bowie was hot. Chico Freeman was hot. David Murray was hot. Oliver Lake, the AACM, was doing great things. And then a lot of the jazz

legends, you know, your Art Blakeys, your Horace Silvers, they weren't getting the same kind of attention or the same kind of respect that they had been getting in the 50s and 60s. There was this sort of unspoken, well, these guys are the old school. I mean, they still play good, but they're not really contributing anything fresh to the canon. And then here comes this young, raw kid from New Orleans who can play the hell out of the trumpet. like no one's ever heard before. And on top of everything else, he's brashing, outspoken.

He pretty much came up and said, wait, hold, hold, hold of time up. All this stuff that y'all think is great, this is all straight bullshit. And even if you didn't agree with him, you had to go, whoa. Yeah. This dude has got some balls on him, you know. And he's backing it up with his playing. And he's backing it up with his trumpet player. Now, add that he's got a brother almost more outspoken than him.

But that's the opposite. The opposite, yeah. But he was, he, in terms of jazz tradition, he was very much on the same page. Now, I see, it's interesting that my manager and I always talk about this. You do realize who actually changed the course of jazz forever in the 80s was not a jazz musician. It was Sting. When the police broke up and Sting decided to start his drive. Dream of the Blue Turtles band.

The fact that he took two of Winton Marcellus' band members, that caused a riff in jazz that to this day has never really been resolved. I think to an extent. Think about something. In 1985, Winton Marcellus had already won, I think by that time he already won four Grammys.

He had already, he was already acknowledged as like the Seminole trumpet player of a generation, even though he was only like 24, a protege of Albert Murray and Stanley Crouch. So he was known as an intellectual on top of a great trumpet player. And he was so well celebrated for his, you know, embracing of the tradition and sort of resetting jazz's values. And he's got one of the greatest bands in jazz with his brother. the great Kenny Kirkland, Sean at Moffield, bass and Jeff Tane Watts on drums.

Sting comes around and says, hey, Bramford, Kenny, y'all come with me. And so this almost seemed very much like a cane and able because people were like, you left your brother to go play in a rock band? Right. What? You know.

Sounds fun. Right. And so people were kind of like, well, but Bramford, I thought you, how could you do that? You know, and Bramford was like, look, I love straight-of-haired jazz, but I never said I wouldn't play anything else, you know. So imagine when he did Buckshot LaFunk, like, what was that shit?

Yeah, so I do know that there was a very, very bad split between them for a long time. They've since made up. I know it's been all good, but musically speaking, I really don't believe Wittner ever really recovered from that. Really? I don't think so. I think musically, because that band was. so killing

musically he wasn't going to find anybody else to replace somebody like Bradford or Kenny Kirkland So you're saying now,

okay, here's the word thing. I just recently found an oral history on live at Blues Alley. Yeah. And to hear Winton tear that album apart,

I mean, an album that I studied, you know. That's a great album. So, I thought. I think so. So I thought, but to hear him and then read further, because the thing is, is that with rock criticism and hip hop, as far as journalism is concerned, I'd never delve deep

into how jazz records were perceived or, you know, got a bunch of downbeat back issues to see how they were, you know, unless it was like looking up on the corner or something, you know, by miles, but I never knew, because in my head, when Jay mood and sort of his 86 to 88 period, I thought that period immediately after Bramford and Kenny went was staying. See, but I didn't see that as a down period, but if you're trying to compare it, are you saying that that 86, 88 period of Winton would be the equivalent of post-payback James Brown? No, I wouldn't say that, but I would say that just mentally speaking. Because I thought he was trying to push even further experiment.

And then when he got to the 90s doing like the low... The New Orleans thing, yeah. The whole 86, you know, those albums, you talk about Jay Mood, Live at Blues Alley. I mean, those are virtually only the two albums he made before he turned and kind of went straight traditional. It went straight to his New Orleans thing. And, you know, he helped build Jazz and Lincoln Center. So I always wonder, like, how much of that was because of what happened with Bramford and Kenny. Like, had Bramford and Kenny not left his band to go with Sting, I'm sure Winton's career would have been a lot different.

Different, yeah. Just for context, so when jazz musicians refer to straight ahead jazz, what is that referring to? Who are some of the artists? Most of the time, they're referring, well, they're referring to a style of jazz that is kind of coming out of 50s, hard bop, you know, Art Blakey, hard silver, cannonball, Adderley, danceable, quote-unquote, jazz, you know, like blues-based kind of jazz. So you're saying not bop as in, because I knew that at a point when they started speeding it up. Right. It was to discourage the dancing.

Yeah. Oh, damn. So, yeah, Fastbop was more like, hey, just watch. us and stop dancing. So they were the DJ of the moment. But they were still called that straight ahead. I think when things started change, it was like

when the avant-garde movement started coming around and it became less so much about overt, or I should say, sort of recognizable traditional melodies or traditional

four-four rhythms. You know, like Ornette Coleman kind of blew it out of the water in the 50s, and Cecil Taylor came around, and Charles Mingus's music started getting a little more abstract to the point where even some jazz fans were like, well, I don't really quite know what this is, you know, Andrew Hill. So wait, you're saying that, and now the shape of jazz to come

was sort of like met with, because now it's considered, or at least beneath the underdog, like those records by Mingus are like considered. Yeah, no, there were a lot of people. people who... Initially, Yeah. They felt it was like heroin music. They were like, well, you know, I'm not sure I can get what this Ornette Coleman do.

You know, a lot of people felt that way. You know, I think the masses did dig it. But it was definitely a musical shift that it took a lot of people, took some time to adjust to it. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me.

Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reality. reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars, and now I guess also is the co-host of the away end, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and

John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game, and I fell in love. On our new podcast, the away end, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan.

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football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Alricone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about

creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You came out as a young lion.

Right. Like when I knew like, oh, this means things, some article in Time Magazine where they were You remember that? Hell yeah, dude. That was like, whoa, Jesus Christ. Yeah. Chris is in Time magazine. You know what I mean?

So it was like there was, were young lions only referred to as the class of 85 to? Yeah, we were the Winton spinoffs. So Young Lions were referred to as post-Winton Jazz. Absolutely. Batine holders. Yeah. Yeah, we were, you know, we were considered the, you know, we were the Jefferson's to Winton's all in the family.

Oh, man. Okay. All right. That's an interesting way to put it. So then, how do you feel about the post-generation? After us? Or like post-Genterson or like our generation or after us? From after your period, there's probably two generations that have passed.

Right. Now, I know me personally with musicians, again, like the universal positioning, the universal quest-level positioning of, you know, whatever I represent is supposed to be all-knowing, all-accepting, and, you know, kind of diplomatic about the shit. So I haven't, like, exactly been like, there's some bullshit a lot, though. Right, right, right. But there are a few musicians that are mad at me about my outspokenness of gospel chaps. So in R&B, oh yeah, just all the fields and all the...

I'm with you, dude. Play everything. But how is that in your world? Because there's some cats that I... Like, I know not to fall for the okie doke. And the oaky duke is like, if someone does more fancy shit than they do straight ahead shit, then that might be a problem. So I think oftentimes, you know, obviously technique is, it's a great thing to have.

I think it's something that one has to strive for if you want to be the best at what you do. Obviously, it's about taste. It's about when you decide to pull your flash card, you know what I mean? I think oftentimes because not a lot of musicians have a lot of great technique, when you find a few that do, it can be intimidating. But on the flip side, if that person with the great technique just jams it down your throat all the time, it's going to make it really bad for the ones that actually have good technique who have tape. Like for me, Wayne Shorter, Wayne Shorter has, just technically speaking,

On the saxophone, he has some of the fastest guns since John Coltrane, probably the fastest since John Coltrane. But Wayne always picks the perfect spot to hit you with that. He never, that's never his MO. He doesn't come out the gate with it. He never comes out of the gate where, you know, he's just, you know, he's just, you know, subtle way. You're like, ooh, what was that?

You know what I mean? He makes you want to hear it again, you know what I mean? And I think the whole thing with the gospel chops, I'm with you all the way, bro, because, I mean, so many times, I always tell young, younger musicians, particularly drummers and bass players, look, that stuff you're doing is great, all right? But do you want to have a million YouTube followers, or do you actually want to work? Man, talk about it. You know, do you want somebody to call you for a gig, or do you want somebody to just pass around YouTube videos and tell, tell you how fast your chops are. I would think in a practical world,

you will want a gig. And if you want a gig, you're going to have to learn to put that shit away. You know what I mean? And I love using you as an example, man. I was like, look, listen to Questlove. I mean, there's a reason why you are who you are.

Now I'm going to gas you up a little bit, man. I can honestly say that after having played with so many of my drum heroes, just jazz and funk, You know, having played with Bernard Purdy, finally got a chance to play with Jabbo and Clyde. Mike Clark. Right.

Steve Gad. Yo, man, you are easily, like, one of the top ten of all time in terms of holding that pocket. Come on, bro. Who else plays that pocket like you, man? Seriously. He's not good with that. He's not good with him.

I'm sorry. I'm sweating. And I'm the homeboy little John Roberts. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's the little John. Little John, he just, he'd be holding the pocket down. I know how many chops he's got.

Did he go to school with y'all too? Wait, because he's from feeling. My, okay, so part, part. He was in all-city band, but he didn't go to. Little John was younger than me. Right. So part of me felt like, okay, as an 11th grader. Drummer for Janet guys.

Yeah, not like, yeah. Yeah, not little John. Right. It's funny because the first time I met that little John, yeah, yeah, back in 94. I was like, wait, what happened to your hair? Like, I'm, because both of them moved to Atlanta, right, John Roberts. But, no, it's funny about John Roberts is because he was, I think, two years younger than me.

Right. So when I got to All City, I mean, he looked like, his name was Little John Roberts. Like, he looked like a kid. He just, so naturally, I just thought like, oh, my fuckers playing the tambourine or something. And I'm, you know, I'm on the drum set. And he was cool. Like, I'm on his drum set. When I'm getting anything, tuning stuff of the way I want it, you know.

And then who's the All-City director? Yeah, Mr. Whitaker. He was like, okay, what's his name? Amor, Omar? Yeah, right. He was like, yeah, you can play a tambourine on good news. Or Hill, or he gave me a throwaway song. Hillwood the Lord hides or something.

Oh, yeah. One of the old Maynard Ferguson songs or whatever. And to watch this little... Did you have to get your ass up? Like, that was my Martin. Pretty Ricky, what they called. That was my moment. That's when, like, I was dead serious.

Okay, I now have to shed five hours. Which is like usually the neighbors would start bitching around 10 p.m. Yes, right. So, you know, that leaves me limited space from like four to ten. PM to do but even then I'm like okay practice on my pad and all right don't wait that up hit hit the bed you know the the mattress something silent right but it was like I got to get I got to get some technique and get like that pressure came on me at 16 17 but little john Roberts was like he when I saw him drumming that's when I knew I had to get my shit together and get it right but the weirdest

thing about it is my approach was to actually do less. Because I know every drummer, like there was a point where it was the gospel group were commissioned. Yeah. So commissioned, like those cats started get more technique into their playing and stuff. And then all tri-state area musicians

just started following suit. And, you know, by that point, James Brown, like his music was starting to come alive more in hip hop 87, 88. So, I mean, it's a lot for you to just, what I would call

use the force and just damn, like, all these guys want to show how fancy they are and I got to play less to get attention. And it was a hard thing. You navigated there brilliantly, my friend. No, it was hard, though, like for the first four years

to just do nothing while all these other cats are just dancing around. I'm getting all the ooze and the eyes and stuff. And, you know, even now, like, it's the equivalent. No, it's the equivalent of in hip hop the dude that can freestyle and get all the ooze and ahs and whatever, but can't make a record to save his fucking lives. It's like too short.

It's like too short versus cannabis. Exactly. Right. The tortoise and the hair. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. So it's, but I also feel, my dad taught me a trick.

Whenever he would audition a musician, yeah. He's like, mm-mm, make him play the ball. Yeah. Like the slowest, easiest song ever. And I will watch many musicians trip. Do you got to go to? Well, I mean, my dad's songs were ballads.

So, like, I would want to do, like, the fast, funky, you know, stuff to see, like, how they adjust it. Right, right. And dad was like, no, you're going to find out the truth about a musician. Always make him play the ballad. That's right. You give them the simplest things ever, and they will always mess up because discipline is one to be hard. artist things ever. Absolutely. So, okay, and I'm not lying about you being technically proficient as far as, in my opinion, one of the greatest musicians working right now in music. How do you,

I mean, what's the conversation in your head? Because a lot of times I'll hear references. Like, it's like you still have hip hop techniques to your soloing. Right. In terms of like, I'll hear references. Like, oh, okay, that was the theme to the Jefferson's. Right, right, right, right. Or whatever. But it's like, what's in your head? Because for me, the pressure of soloing is one of the hardest things. It still gives me anxiety to this day.

But like, do you get anxiety to solo or is it just like? It depends. It depends on the song. It depends on the whole whatever circumstances that happened at that time. I still have head trips about playing the electric bass, and I shouldn't. And I'll tell you why I have hit. Well, because even after all these years, I still get the, I didn't know you played an electric bass. I'm like, damn.

So, wait, even after nine albums? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, people still see me with an electric bass and they're like, what? Really? I'm just like, seriously? How did y'all miss that? Oh, yeah, totally.

And so like, and I see like, because I don't play the electric bass, base every day, like on game. I mean, I play enough electric base where I think my technique is still respectable. But I know that you get like some cats out here, like our homie Derek Hodge, who really does it. You know, all these legends like Victor Wooten and Marcus Miller and cats who really, really, really do it on a regular basis. And I don't know.

Every now and then I put the electric base on them thinking. Somebody out there in the audience is going, he's not as good as Marcus Miller. Are you serious? Which is true. But I still get really uptight about playing the electric base. Now, how's this for irony, except when me and you were playing together.

Well, that's weird, though, because of the gazillion times I've seen you, most of the times it's like your electric, like when your family fair project came out. I've seen you a lot. Like, I always felt that you, you've devoted half of your projects to... That's what I've tried to do. Tradition and push it forward, you know. You know, speaking of that recording of Family Affair,

I think that was when, there was a couple of things that happened between 98 and 2001. That was when I started to, and in retrospect, I wonder if this was wrong of me to have, or if it was reactionary. But by 97, it was kind of like, oh, the Young Lion, Christian McBride, Ray Brown, protege, Winton Marcellus, you know, Little Brother Club, you know, it's just like...

You wanted to be your own man? I'm like, come on, y'all, damn. I mean, obviously I loved Ray Brown. You know, Ray Brown, for me, was like the Muhammad Ali of jazz bass of all time. Went to Marcellus, great, you know, mentor, big brother to have. but I knew my musical view was a lot wider than that.

So I thought, wow, I'm getting painted into this corner. I want to do this other stuff. And I think they're going to start tripping once I decided to do that. So in 98, I knew that I said, I want to do something a little more electric, a little more on this side, you know. And so I hooked up with George Duke. Oh, man. A lot of people in the jazz world, they were like, I took it like this. Christian, we really love you.

So we're just going to let you have this one. We're not even going to acknowledge that. We're just going to be like... That's funny because when I saw the fonts, okay, so the day the album, usually on the first week of your album's coming out, I'm buying it. And when I'm seeing it and saw the fonts,

at first I was like, wait, did he do a funk record and not call me? What the fuck? I mean, my feeling. So you knew from the font it was, it was funky. From the font. Right. But then I was like, because I know, I figured that your entry into the music world was the same as my entry in high school.

Right. And I was like, okay, because I know that you got a side of you that wants to reference Bootsie and James Jamerson and Jaco Pistoris and all these, you know, Lewis Johnson. Right. Like there's a whole other side of you that you have yet to expect. I mean, you'll salt and pepper some shit and a cut or two with your record. But then, when I saw that,

I was like, okay, he's, this is going to be his flag planting. Right, right. Now, I'd never read the reviews of that record. There were none. What was the general?

Because, again, like, and what was the name of the record? Family fair. Family fair. This is really a record. Okay. Which is weird because you swung, and I love that interpretation of it. Thank you.

He did a swing and interpretation of Slice. Yes. Of Slice song. So it's also, wait, I forgot to tell you. Is that the one with Open Sesame? Yes. Dude. Oh, is it by Kooli.

You ever talked to Ronald Bell about that? No. He loves you forever for that. Really? Yes. Because he, in his head, he, envision all that stuff as serious jazz for you to interpret Open Sesame

the way that you did. Really? Oh, man. That made it. I always wanted to know if you ever knew that you made his life with that. I'll tell you what, after a family affair, I got a call from Verdine White. And I'll never forget like almost being frozen for a couple of days.

You know, like, man, we just wanted to tell you, we got family, we got getting to it and family affair on the, tour bus and we're checking you out man we love uh i'll write a song for you yeah i was like oh elizabeth oh elizabeth wait i know i know you have crazy stories uh i know that if she's on your record you have a crazy vested story i was about to ask yeah i actually don't man uh what no but she was she was pretty mellow man um what i actually didn't know her George Duke knew her.

I brought in these songs that I wanted to record, and now Shaka was originally for singing. Okay. Wait, pardon me. All right. She's been on the show. She stands we walked famously.

And then she'll send her best girls, though. Right. You know that Shaka was supposed to do, don't look any further? You mean with Dennis Edwards? Yes. No kidding. Stood him up. Shaka was supposed to do.

The power would snap. Stood him up. She's world famous for like. Oh, bless her heart. Penny Ford, not Martha Wall. But she didn't see, oh, wow. Penny Ford. But she said I'll send the best girls.

Yeah. I met Penny Ford through Shaka. She was singing background one at that time. Yeah. Yeah. So George, so I brought in these songs, a couple of vocal tunes. And George said, well, who you want?

I said, well, I want to get Shaka. He's like, you want to make the call or you want me to make the call? I was like, well, you know, I know Shaka, but your George do. You know, so you make the call. So he said, all right, I'll call her. He's like, Shaka's down. You know, she wants to do it.

I guess maybe a week later, he said, man, something went down. Shaka ain't going to be able to make it now. I was like, all right. He's like, how you feel about Vesta? I was like, oh, shit. Yeah, okay, great. So Vesta came in and nailed it. And Will Downing came in.

came in, George's dude gave him the greatest nickname I've ever heard for Will Downing. Just take a while, guess what he called him. Down? Is it based on his initials? WMD-40. W-D-40. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life,

mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space. For honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault in Our Stars, and now I guess also is the co-host of the Away End, a brand-new World Soccery.

podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game and I fell in love. On our new podcast, the away end, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was there most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history,

its hope, its heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important.

Listen to the away end with Daniel Auer Kohn and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast,

Money and Wealth with John Hobrient, I sit down with Tiffany the Bucconista Aliche to talk about what it really. really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people

when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a a strong financial legacy for your family.

If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What was the story behind your tribute for James Brown and the aftermath of that? Yeah, I was going to say, give us the, the,

the tribute. Yeah, it was, um... Your James Brown story is the big time. Yeah, so getting to you finally... Oh, working with James Brown. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. You gotta let our audience hear.

I know the story, but... I'll do my best to give you a condensed version because it's long, but the, the gist of it is... We got time today. We do. All right on. We got time today, because... Right on.

Go in. The gist of it is that, you know, as this man knows, you know, James Brown's been like my bone marrow. So by the time I leave Philly to move in New York, James Brown was in jail. And so I'm writing James Brown letters like once a month. I know he's not getting them, you know, because I'm sure he's getting hundreds of them per day. I was like, it's all good. I just want him to know that I love him, you know.

So 1993. That's a very Christian McBride thing for you to do. Y'all know. And so in 1993, I'm on my first tour with Pat Maffini. And we're playing the Montreux Jazz Festival. And I'm backstage and I'm walking around and I didn't look at the schedule. So I walked by one of the production doors and it says James Brown stage plot. I went, what?

So I knocked on the door. I was like, Excuse me, is James Brown performing? He's like, yeah, said, when? It's tonight. It's like, what? He said, yeah, he's coming on after y'all. What?

I said, oh, shit. And so. That's how you know you're a busy jazz musician. I had no idea. We were opening for James Brown. So that night, you know, I see St. Clair Pinkney and Danny Ray and Martha High, all the James Brown. Is this the first time you're seeing them? Yeah.

How do you even enter? you mean first time I Well I mean I'm sure that in your travel You saw like Macyo hearing that Right right Because of your level of stand them How do you How do you approach

How do you nuance the approach to let them know Right Without freaking them out I got lucky and I'll tell you why Because out of all them guys That was standing in the wings Ron Laster I knew I knew them all

They're standing in the wings And they're watching us And I'm thinking Oh man This is my shot. There was one brother who I didn't recognize. He was a young dude. It turns out he had

just joined James Brown's band like three months before. And it was obvious that, you know, he had that rookie look about him. You know, he was kind of like standing by himself and, you know, kind of with the band, but not really, you know. And he was like, man, you sound great, man. You know, it's pleasure to meet you. I said, yeah, man, you too.

What's your name, brother? His name was Robert Thompson, also known as Mousie Thompson is his name. he said, yeah, I just started playing drums with Mr. Brown a couple of months ago. And so I think he was relieved to meet somebody close to his age that he could kind of roll with. So me and Mousie started rolling that night. We started hanging and talking. And I found a little bit of his history.

He played with Chuck Brown. He's from D.C. He played with Chuck Brown. He played with Wilson Pickett before he got with James Brown. Was he four on the floor? Only because James made him. Sorry. But he is very funky.

And so I got into the James Brown crew initially through Mousie. So Mousie was kind of, you know, metaphorically kind of took my hand and said, hey, guys, this is Christian McBride, this is the brother. Y'all just saw. And they, oh, Christians. I met St. Clair and Danny Ray. And I started kind of working my way in. and the final straw came the next year in 94 when James played the Apollo, and he did his final, what turned out of his final live at the Apollo record.

That's where I met Martha High. Martha High was the mother hen of the entire James Brown crew. And so Mousie introduced me into Ms. High. And then once I met Ms. High, that was pretty much, you know, here's your VIP pass, you know. And then... But do they know you're Christian McBride? They did...

Shortly after the Apollo gig, getting to it came out. And so then they started putting two and two together. They were like, well, wait a minute. Oh, that's who that is. You know. So 95, I'm on tour with this Verve Records All-Star band with Jimmy Smith.

Would you say stander? My level was standing. So I knew that. one of James Brown's jazz heroes was Jimmy Smith, the great jazz organist. Jimmy Smith was on this Verve All-Star tour. So I said, James Brown, we were all playing the Vienna Jazz Festival. And James Brown was staying in the same hotel. And I said, if I ever get to meet James Brown today, I'm a drop that I'm playing with Jimmy Smith.

And so by that time I knew Mr. Brown's bodyguards and he says, hey, man. You just plot it. Yeah, all man, dude, slow and methodical. Well, first of all, you need the album get into it, which I knew was a little smoke signal like, yeah, right, right. Yeah, right, all right. And then once you heard the track, you were like,

wait a minute, that's get it together. Right, right, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, so Reginald Simmons was his name. Mr. Simmons introduced me to James Brown, and he's like, Mr. Brown, how are you doing? I briefly met you at the Apollo last year. I'm friends with Mousies.

Oh, that's right, son. Yeah, yeah, you're the bass player. Yes, sir. I'm playing with Jimmy Smith tonight. You're like, what? Well, you know I love Jimmy Smith, man. And so, you know, we just, he just sat there and rapped and just talked about jazz. And still then, it was still not like, you know, just, I was just geeking out.

We didn't really have any real meaningful conversation. So I think everything finally took shape. Right after that, I said, okay, I got to stop all this fan stuff and actually come up with something. What do I want to do with Jay Brown? What's my dream? I said, well, I know I'm not going to ever be in this band. He's not going to ask me to do that. You would do it, wouldn't you? I don't know, man.

I've heard too much. Yeah, I mean, I'm like, I really know. So have we. You know, I mean, it was almost like you told me, because I remember once asked, asking you had you ever met MJ. And you're like, yeah, nah, I'd rather just... Don't be a hero. Why would you want to meet James Brown?

Right. Well, I thought if I ever, if James Brown actually ever, in the unlikely event he actually did call me to join his band, I'm thinking, what would I do? I was like, I just don't know, man. I don't want to be putting on them red tails every night in the bowtides. That's straight. Playing a ten note.

Ladies and gentlemen. That's right. And Ms. High asked me that one time. She said, would you join the band of James Brown? I asked you. And I went, she said, you better not. Yes, ma'am. Okay.

So anyhow, I said, I want to do a jazz project with James Brown, because I know how much he loves jazz. He's always named dropping the jazz cats. Maybe we could do that solo on top record live. He did this really. With his solo one? Yeah, because I figured I would. I figured he wouldn't do it unless I let him do that.

He only sold us in the key of D, no matter what. That's right, no matter what the song, the actual key is in, you know. I said, let me ask James Brown if he'll be interested in doing a solo on top with a big band. You know, I would write new arrangements of his favorite jazz standards and you can play organ and sing, you know. And it would be like a soul on top 2.0, you know. I'll go back to writing letters, you know. So writing them these letters sending them to his office. I'm thinking, okay, yeah, I know letters are kind of effective, but not really, you know.

Keep sending them letters, keep sending them letters. And finally he came to New York. This is in 97. And Mr. Simmons sees me again. I'm backstage here at Radio City. And Mr. Simmons says, oh, Mr. Brown, Mr. McBride is here. You remember Mr. McBride, right? And James Brown said, yes, I do.

do, Mr. Sole on top. And that's when I realized he had started getting these letters. And so he invited he invited me out to dinner with his entourage that night. So now the rubber's hitting the ground, you know? Which are you?

Oxtails. Owls! That's right. That's right. Oxtails and champagne. Y'all. Right. I love it.

I love it. I love it. Okay. Ain't it? I love it. We went to Victor's Cafe on 50 second of Broadway. He ordered oxtails all around. He didn't even ask anybody what they want.

Oxtails and everybody. Oxtails and champagne. That's a small time of this. I'm about to say, yeah. Oh, man. So, that night we actually started talking about maybe doing the solo on top project. and a couple months later, actually a couple weeks later,

because this was Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving of 97, I'm sorry, 96. He invited me down to Augusta for his Christmas party. And I said, oh man, I can't believe how good this is going. Like, I'm in the James Brown crew.

This is trippy. And things went really bad at the Christmas party. Wait, let me get it ready. Yeah, right. There you go. Yeah, so I'm sitting there at the party hanging with Mousie because that was my dog. He was my entry into the James Brown camp.

And what year is this? This was Christmas of 96. Oh, wow. Okay. And I'm sitting there at this table with Mousie and Martha Hyde, Danny Ray, all these people sitting at the table. And James was, he was cool. You know, when I got there, he was like, Mr. McBride, welcome to Augusta. Glad to have you here, his son, love everything you do.

You know, thank you, sir. get to the end of the party. We're all taking pictures. And I'm sitting there posing with Mr. Brown and Ms. High. And just before the camera clicks, James Brown leans over, he says, I'm hip to you, son. I know what you're doing. You can't fool me.

I said, what are you talking about, Mr. Brown? No, I don't get me that. I know what you're doing. Got my eye on you. Trying to infiltrate my organization. Oh, shit. You try to take Ms. High and my drummer from him. I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute, Mr. Brown.

What you're talking about? You know? And then he, like, kind of walks off, like, pissed, right? And so... How did he's playing around? I thought he was playing, right? And so I looked at Martha High. I was like, uh, you want to help me out here?

Yeah, just smooth this shit out. You know? She was like, oh, I don't pay him no mind. You know, he's just tripping. I was like, I don't know. He looks really mad. And so, uh, I tell Mousy what happened.

I'm freaked out. Like my childhood heroes pissed at me. Told you, bro. Y'all know, right? Told you, brus. And so, he was like, oh, man, don't worry about Brown. You know, see, you're just getting in too close. I said, yeah, apparently so.

And so I call him on the phone. A couple weeks later, we're in the new year now. And I said, Mr. Brown, you know, I just wanted to check back in, make sure everything was cool about that incident at the party and, you know, about those letters I sent you with the soul on top thing. He's like, son, let me explain something to you. I was like, oh, oh, I could just feel it coming.

I was like, his voice was tense. You know, he was like, first of all, I ain't making no record with you. He's like, I think you got something mixed up, son. If we're going to make a record there, it's going to be my record. I don't make no guest appearances on nobody's record. You understand? This is going to be a James. Brown record. I ain't singing on your record.

Who do you think you are? I was like. What's your stomach feel like at this moment? Like you're on the phone? What do you feel? I was, well, I was too shocked to feel anything, you know? And he was just like, you think you're going to write some arrangements for me? Uh-uh, son. I don't need nobody write no arrangements

for me. I ain't doing no record with you. Secondly, secondly, he was like, I listened to your record. all the way through. And that record ain't nothing. Oh, no, no, no. You can't play, you can't play no bass.

You got everybody telling you the great bass player. You can't play no bass. In fact, I'm going to sue you for getting to it. Oh, yeah. How did I break out in tears? I would have broke out in tears. Well, I was about to break out in tears until he went here. He says, you're just like everybody else.

You're stealing my music and trying to get rich. and then I was like I had the audacity to stand up for myself I was like wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait Mr. Brown he said

I said sir do you have the CD because he was like rambling you know I was like sir do you have the CD handy he's like no I don't have it nearby I said look when you get the CD

will you please open up the liner notes and read the entire paragraph I wrote about you and you know how much you've been in inspiration to me and how much

get it together, inspired this tune and all this other stuff. And he was weird because he paused. He went, you wrote about me in the line of notes? I said, Mr. Brown, all he had to do was read it.

No, you should just don't say that. He was like, James Brown ain't got to read. He was like, well, in that case, I still love you. But I ain't making no record with you. Oh, wait. Right?

Happy medium. But see, all of this is so strange. because a couple days later, I get a call saying, Mr. Brown wants you to perform at his birthday bash. And I'm like, yo, this is trippy.

And I'm thinking I should say no. Because I don't want this drama, you know. But I'm an idiot. So I took the gig, right? I said, I'm going down and play with James Brown for his birthday bash because he asked me, right? And so I go, this is May of, of 97.

He had me play with some house band down there. And at the Bell Auditorium, where the sex machine album was made. And so when I get there, Moussey, you know, it was funny because like the whole band was like, yo, man, we heard what happened. We're sorry, Don. We told you he's crazy, man.

You know? And so Moussey said, man, Brown is backstage. You want to say hi? Wish him a happy birthday. I was like, all right, I guess I'll go wish him. Damn you love torture. I know, right? So I go back to say hello and wish you my happy birthday.

I was like, happy birthday, Mr. Brown. He's that, Miss McBride, great to see you, son. What song are you going to play tonight? You're going to play that song you stole from you? Oh, man. And so I was just like, you know what? I should go to the airport right now. But no.

But no, right? I got to be loyal. And so I played my one little song. song and at the end of the night, Jay's round on stage, he says, ladies, I want you to give a big round applause. They're all of the performers this evening. Let's hear for the Blues Brothers. Let's hear for Kenny Wayne Shepard.

Wait, the line of, I know, right? Kenny Wayne Shepard. Kenny Wayne Shepard and the Blues Brothers. It's here for Eddie Floyd, brother Eddie Floyd. Let's hear for Mother of Two. What? Yeah, it was out. Let's hear for my daughter Yama.

Let's hear for Rosebelt Johnson. And so far, he left me out. And so this is when I knew that Martha High and Mousie were real friends. Mousie starts waving the sticks. Even as heard as I am at this point, like beyond insulted, like I didn't get cussed out by the man, threatened to be sued, told me I couldn't play, told me I wasn't shit. Even with Mousie going like this, I'm backstage looking at Mousie like, don't do it. Don't you get yourself fired.

No, stop it. So Mousie's playing. He's like, Mr. Brown, Mr. Brown. Martha Hive physically walks up to James Brown in the middle of his ranting and like, James Brown said, oh, Lord, have mercy. I forgot. How could I forget the great Christian McBride? Oh, please forgive me the fungus bass player in the world.

And Martha Hyde looks back. She's like, you know, I got you. I was like, you know, y'all crazy. And so at that point, I had no contact with James Brown for nine years. I ran until him on the road somewhere, and I was just kind of like, yo, what's happening? You know, kept walking. But in 2005, I was named the creative chair for the L.A. Philharmonic for the Jazz Series. My job was to curate 12 jazz concerts every season, eight at the Hollywood Bowl,

and four at Walt Disney Concert Hall. And so I said with this new position, I got to at least see if I can make this happen. I said nine years should be long enough. And so I called Charles Bobbitt, the late Charles Bobbitt. And I said, Mr. Bobbitt, you know,

I'm doing this thing with the L.A. Philharmonic. I'm curating shows at the Hollywood Bowl. And, you know, I wonder if Mr. Brown would be interested in doing a jazz big band concert. And he's like, I don't know. It might be hard to make that happen, but let me put the word in and see what happens.

About a week later, Charles Bobbitt called me back. He said, Mr. Brown said, it's a green light. What? Did you believe it? I actually did believe it because when he came to New York, Mr. Bobbett says, we want to meet with you at our hotel.

It's hard for me to say what hotel they stayed at. starts with a T but you say yeah you know that guy in in the White House

oh him yeah but yeah come by there and we'll talk about it so that's when I knew serious I said man James Brown

we're actually going to do this so on September 6th 2006 oh shit three months before he died yep we played at the Hollywood Bowl

James Brown how much rehearsal went into that we had pretty much just one, one full day of rehearsals at center staging out in Burbank. And we only wound up doing, I think, he sang five songs, five or six songs with the big band. And then he did Man's World, I Feel Good, and Sex Machine with his own. So the stage was packed because his entire band was on this side of the stage.

The big band was on this side of the stage. A string section was in the middle. and we had a drum perch for Louis Belson because we had him come out and play one song with us since he was on the original solo top album. Damn, you love risks, man. There's a risk with older cats that, you know. Lord knows, I know that.

I mean, you got to nuance it perfectly and not hurt their feelings. That's right. Even when they're wrong, they're right. That's right. And he never sued you, though. He never, No,

He never, He didn't even remember. That was the angel dust talking. Oh, Angel Dust. All right, so I'd nominate Chris the second to De Nice to be repeat guests

because I knew you got. Yeah, this has got to be 50 more. Two-parter. Not even two-parter. We have not, yeah. We didn't even crack the surface. Well, see, bro. First of all,

I will always say, on the record and off the record, but man, so proud to call you my homeboy and my friend, man. Thank you. You, uh, breaking barriers left and right, man. So, so proud of you. I'm trying to keep up with you, man. And I still, I still remember one of my favorite slang terminologies was one of his dad coined, and that was cake. Cake.

I never heard anybody use cake for money. Money. Oh, wow. That was your pop? Cake, yeah. Why do you think I got 19 jobs, man? You were going to get some cake. That's right.

You know, Chris, I thank you for coming on the show, man. Thanks for having me, man. Yo, this is the only beginning. I got to share it on my freestyle next time. Next go around, you will have it. Yes, on behalf of Fitzlaille, Montigolo. Unpaid and Boss Bill. Yes, I wanted to say very paid.

Good. And Sugar Steve, this is Questlove, Quest Love Supreme. We'll see you on the next go round. Thank you. West Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio.

This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from IHartRadio, visit the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes,

follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm Daniel Alarcon, and this is a lot of the same. my friend is much more famous than I am. I wouldn't go that far, but I'm John Green, co-host of the podcast The Away End with my old friend Daniel. On our podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup.

Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to The Away End with Daniel Auer Kohn and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Financial Literacy Month, The podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre,

as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. There's an economic component to communities thriving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they failed. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.