The Questlove Show - QLS Classic: Jason Flom

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

Music industry exec and activist Jason Flom talks about the couplet that got him fired from Atlantic, signing monster acts like Twisted Sister, Kid Rock and Lorde (to name a few) and everything you need to know if you ever come up against the United States justice system. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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West Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. Ladies and gentlemen, this is QLS Classic from January 3rd, 2018. We talked to Jason Flom, the name that you might not be familiar with, but his impact is felt. Namely, either signed or discovered or A&R. Katie Perry, Lord, Sugar Red, Blue Man Group, Haley Williams, and Paramo, Rolling Stones, Lenny Cravens, Colplay, Jesse Jay, the list goes on in the line. This man has spent the first half of his life making decisions, dreams come true,

and the second half of his life and his career, shining the light on those who have been wrongfully convicted. He's the host of wrongful conviction with Jason Flom. This podcast features him and used with women who have spent time in the prison system or trying to fight the prison system as we now know it. Tim Kardashians, Amit Hill, Amanda Knox, Rodney Reed, and he's trying to grant up their freedom. enjoy this episode of QLS Classic with Jason Floom. Here we go.

Just follow us. Suprema, sub, sub, sub, subprima roll call. Suprema, sub, sub, subprima roll call. Suprema, sub, sub, subprima, role call. Supraima, sub, subprima role call. Swear to God, yeah. From this day on, yeah. On my speed dial, yeah, will be Jason from.

My name. You never know, man. Role call. Suprema, Subima Roll Call. My name is Fonte. Yeah. And I'm much blacker.

Yeah. Than the audience. Yeah. For Uncle Cracker. Role. Oh. Supraima Role call. Suprema.

Supraima Rolecar. My name is Sugar. Yeah. Y'all try to stay calm. Yeah. But on Antistry.com. Yeah. I'm a flam.

Rocah. Suprema. Suprema, sub, subprima, Rocah. Suprema, Suprema, Roeca. Boss Bill woke up. Yeah.

With a song on his mind. Yeah. Thanks Jason Flom. Yeah. For a wait by White Lion. Rocahawk. Are you from Indiana? Supraima Rocah

Call. The song was a Sheprema, Sub prima Rocaul call. Islaeam. Yeah. Everybody united. Yeah Jason Flom

Yeah Brankham We're gonna fight him That's what I'm saying Supraima Supreme Roll call I had to

Supremea Role call They call me Dolly But I'm the Obama And I don't know What Tacama But I'll tell you this

Roll Call Supreme I love a Supreme Supreme Roll Car Suprema Subima

Roca Superma roll call Supraima Superma roll call I love a good car crash every now and then About that No you know

You was right up there At least he didn't freeze up completely Like some guests do Exactly Yeah no You You handled it fairly well White Clef tried to teach me

How to freestyle It just didn't work out Freestyle You just start with a freestyle You gotta start with the freestyle That's hard I don't know Yeah that's going to college

Just start your basic rhyme. Make sure and I'm here to say is your second line. That's your, that's your starst kid. Oh, he didn't tell me that. Yeah, yeah. I was going to drop some roses or reddish violets or bluish. You know, I'm not very religious, but if I was, I'd be Jewish. But it just didn't seem like that it is.

And Steve is in love already, man. I mean, yeah. We've got a nice little diverse crowd here, you know what I mean? Thank you all. Very 2018. Yeah, very much so. We're actually missing one of our white guys. Yeah, we are actually, yes.

He's at his job. We're hooking from our job to be here at this other job. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, our guest today, he has entered the professional music world or the industry in his early 20s as an A&R rep, and later as head in our Atlantic Records. Might I also add under the Erdogan Iron Fiss, which basically means that he literally learned from the best. He's signed Twisted Sister, White Lions, Skip Row,

Tori Amos, Stone Temple Pilots, name a few. And in 1995, he co-founded, or founded Lava Records, which was an Atlantic subsidiary signing the likes of all the 90s TRL Staples like Kid Rock and Uncle Cracker and...

Matchbox 20. Core and Sugar Ray, I believe. Yeah, sugar. Yeah. And then, since then... It was fun, boy. Those days were fun. I can imagine. Good God. Yeah. I was in college when those Sugar Ray Records. And since then, in his world domination mission,

I'm sorry, you, I'm telling you what you did. He led Virgin in the Capitol Records merger, working with the Rolling Stones, Lenny Kravitz, even Coldplay, a particular favorite of Fonthe's. I'm sure that you have gazillion questions. Not to mention, he's led many to the promised land. And such unknown acts as Katie Perry, 30 seconds to Mars. Multiple, multiple platinum acts, but way it gets worse.

He's also the founding member of the Innocence Project. Founding board member, yeah. The founding board member, I'm sorry, of the Innocence Project, not to mention the Bronx Freedom Fund, FAM, which is a great acronym for families against mandatory minimums. basically trying to ensure that those that are caught up in the law with wrongful convictions get their proper due in court,

get retrials, get out. Yes, get freedom. Yeah, we can go on and on. And yeah, he also signed Jesse J and Lord. I'll add at the end. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to our first show of the New Year, Jason Flom, to question of the last. Oh, thank you very much.

I'm happy to be here. Kind of an honor, actually. I gotta be honest. We're excited because you're a true record man, but you're also a freedom fighter. Probably one of the last record, man. Dude, you knew I'm at Erdogan, which means something to someone that's watching from afar.

I don't know how much that means to you, but that means like... It was incredible just being around that man. I mean, he was every bit the legend that everybody thinks he was. And maybe the greatest of all time. You know, when he was on, it was and I caught the tail end of that

but then I got to work under him he became more of like an honorary chairman but I got to work under him for 25 years I mean it was an awesome awesome experience I mean what else can you say the guy died at a Rolling Stones concert you know what I mean like to the end he was a legend to the fucking end I mean the best so would you consider yourself

the last of his of his disciples like I feel like those that studied under him have went on to, you know, reach further than other people in the music business. Probably rivaling maybe Clive Davis as far as influence his concern. Like, would you consider yourself the last of his... Well, I don't know. You know, I guess Craig Calman came up under him as well, and Craig's obviously done amazing stuff.

Still does. And so, you know, we worked together for a while. And, yeah, so it was just an amazing time to be growing up in the music industry. You know, I actually started Atlantic when I was 18. And, you know, the first time I met Amit, which is really kind of... Tell us. So I started off putting up posters in record stores, which I thought was the greatest job in the world. I had a staple gun, some double-sided tape, some Led Zeppelin posters,

ACDC, sister sled, chic. I mean, it was just, it was incredible. So mid-70s, you were... This was 79. So I'd run around to record stores and climb up on ladders and put up posters. And, like, it was just an awesome... It was a great way to meet girls. Let me tell you that it was incredible.

It's a pay job? It's a pay, $4 an hour. I'm laughing. Wait, let me just pause this. All right, for those that you that don't know, I mean, the mom and dad, the mom and pop record store was a staple of the 70s and the 80s. More than what the chains were in the Tau Records.

But me as a kid growing up in the 70s, going to the mom and pop stores, My favorite part of that whole experience was seeing the window display of how those posters would go up, of which when I would go home and everyone would play house or whatever, I'd play records. I used to do that too. And like because some of the, I didn't know that some of those like J cards and cards were not records. They were posters. So they'd be bent in a particular way. So I would take my father's records and try and bend the record.

Yeah, I broke like the honey records. I broke the Commodore's debut album trying to staple them to the wall and bend them a certain way. So you are who I have to blame for many a punishment of this way. Well, not only that, but probably half of my displays

were either crooked or upside down because I was so stoned all the time. So, like, because, I mean, weed was the big thing back then, man. Oh, it's still a big thing. I got news to tell you. Oh, yeah, it still is, but I'm not out of that game. But anyway, yeah, so I had this great job.

I thought it was the greatest job in the world. And I got free records. I was like, this is it. Like, I've peaked at 18 years old. I can't do better, right? And then I discovered a band called Zebra, right? And it's a crazy story how that even happened. But it doesn't matter.

I determined that I wanted to get a job doing A&R because it looked like a great job to me. And so I found a band through a series of luck and synchronicity and serendipity and perseverance and a little bit of intelligence. I managed to find this band. It became a hit. So they gave me a job doing A&R.

I must have been 20 years old. I got a little office at Atlantic Records. And one day, I'm sitting in there, hi, with the drummer from my high school band. We were actually in there hanging out, like pondering as we had just gone out and smoked a couple of joints. We came back and were sitting there just in fucking amazement and shocked that I was getting paid to listen to music. I was like, how is this even possible? Right? I can't believe it.

So as we're sitting there in this haze, Amit's secretary knocks on the door. Her name was Jenny Lynn. She knocks on the door and she pokes her head and she goes, Amit would like to see you. and I go, you're full of shit. And then he looks in and goes, no, she's not. And I was like, oh, give me some byzine quick. I was like, I got to get cleaned up here. What are I going to do?

So with that fresh buzz on, you know. So I went in his office and he had some kid in there that he had met in a club in the Bronx, you know, because he used to go clubbing and shit, right? And this kid, I remember this kid was taking cigarettes, cigarette butts out of the estuary and relighting him, right? And I was like, he was kind of a desperate looking kid. But he was on some, like, crazy type of music thing that I didn't even understand. I mean, I don't want to tell him. I mean, yo, I'm a rock guy.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I was just like, hmm, yes, sounds good. What was I going to say? I was sitting there in the presence of the greatest, like a deity. Right. And I'm high. And I don't know what the hell's going on. I don't even know how I'm here.

So it was an amazing way to start a relationship. Come on. Who was it? Who was the kids? I don't remember. What? I think you would be like I was now Rogers. Yeah.

It would be a better story if it was. I don't know. Maybe it was. I can't remember. But Zebra, that was your first band? That was the first band you signed? Yeah, they had a song called Who's Behind the Door? Oh, okay.

That was a big thing. And they were signed to Atlantic. You signed them to... Yeah, and they sounded exactly like Led Zeppelin, which is funny because I have a band now called Greta Van Fleet, who also sound like Led Zeppelin, and they're blowing up. They're actually... They may actually save rock and roll these kids.

It's incredible. I think they're going to. I mean, it's really fun. They're great musicians. He sings like fucking Robert Plant, and the kids are eating it up. So I think the tie to the pendulum is swinging back to rock and roll. I got to ask, how, I mean, your lucky streak. I mean, you know, I'd be reminous to say that, you know, the artist that you sign,

you know, with the help of MTV, you know, you kind of wrote each other, a lot of the artists that you signed that blew up, your first wave, your twisted sisters, your first wave of metal bands that you signed to Atlantic. Like, how do you feel about the theory of having good ears or that whole theory of, were you like the new blood that was beyond the ears and like they have a look, they have a charisma. I mean, just the fact that 70s acts were about, okay, they sound good. In fact, they could be ugly and still have a hit. Yes. The Christopher Cross. That's exactly what I was thinking of.

I was dancing in my head like, don't throw. Snyder is so good-looking. Is that what you're saying? But I'm not a Twisted Sister fan, and I knew all those songs. Yeah, I knew the joints. That's how you know shit successful when I knew I want to rock and all that shit. Well, Twisted Sister was a different story because what happened was I had found Zebra, and I was so excited because then I got this little office and a little job doing A&R because

they were having a hit. And then the guy from Zebra, his name was Randy Jackson. Not the Randy Jackson that we're all friends with, but the different Randy Jackson. So there's a third one. Not Michael's brother, not American-A-L-Berner. There's probably a lot of them. Okay. You can Google that.

You can actually Google How Many of Me.com and you can see how many people have your same name. I know there's four Jason Flombs in this country, you know, so. But anyway, yeah, you know, she's on it.

I am. So anyway, so Randy says to me one day, Flom, he goes, Twisted Sisters, the greatest live band in the world. He goes, we can't touch him and neither can anyone else. And I was like, no shit.

Okay, well, let me check this shit out. You know, so I went up to, Poughkeepsie on a Wednesday night. And for those of you don't know, Poughkeepsie's about 100 miles north of New York City. And it's funny name Poughkeepsie. But anyway, Zebra was opening for Twisted Sister, which I thought was kind of weird because Zebra was signed and Twisted Sister wasn't. And anyway, there was 3,000 kids there on a Wednesday night at six bucks ahead. And we're talking, whatever this was 1980, 81, when six bucks was six bucks, right? And every one of these kids is wearing a Twisted Sister T-shirt. And D. Snyder comes out on stage and it's, and it's, It's like thunder in there, right? The kids are about to riot. And he gets up and he goes, all right, New York. He goes, we just got back from fucking England.

We're sick and fucking tired of hearing those lymie motherfuckers telling us how bloody, fucking good we are. What do you New York motherfuckers have to say? And all 3,000 kids throw their fists in the air and go, twisted fucking sister. And I was like, get the fuck out of here. I'm done. I don't even care if they can play their instruments. It doesn't matter.

Nothing matters from that point forward. I'm like, this one comes with instructions. You know what I mean? And then, of course, they put on that crazy live show, which was amazing. I mean, because they had done thousands and thousands of shows by that point. Nobody would sign them. They were considered a joke. The funny thing was, I come back to the city.

I drove back with the guitar player, JJ. And I don't know if I got home at four or five or whatever the hell it was. And I walked into my boss's office the next morning on two hours of sleep. And God knows how many kinds of, you know. Intoxicants. Exactly. Thank you. And I walk in and I go, I found religion last night.

And he goes, what the fuck are you talking about? And I go, twisted sister. And he goes, get the fuck out of my office. And I was like, I didn't know that they were considered a joke. So they were already known as a joke amongst the... They'd been passed on so many times by everybody in the music industry. Now, they were, you know, back then they were, you know, known for wearing women's clothes. Right, the visual. That's what I was about to say it was all.

Sometimes you'd come out on a dog collar with a chain or, you know, a makeup and fingernail, by the way, Who cares, right? Rocky Horror was a hit. And what about Kiss? Yeah, kids, yeah. And New York, though. Yeah, but anyway, nobody would sign him. And I went to see him again the next night in South Jersey.

He had 3,700 kids there. And I was like, this has got it. This is my mission in life. The funny thing was, I finally got shut down permanently. And they would not sign my boss would not sign him, no matter what, he threatened to fire me if I ever mentioned the name, Twisted System. Who is your boss at Atlantic at the time?

Are we actually going to call him out for this? I don't know about that. Let me think of that one. It's so many years out of the fact. It's 35 years ago. Anyway, it was the president of Atlantic back then. So, not Amit. Okay, okay.

So the funny thing was I saw the head of the English company, a guy named Phil Carson, in the hallway one day. I knew he was, I didn't know him, but I knew he was like a serious guy. Like he had signed ACDC and shit. He was like a real guy, you know? I was like, so I go up to him, I go, Mr. Carson, here's the, I told him this whole story. I'm like stumbling over my words.

I'm so excited. I ran him a thing or everything. He told me later, he threw the whole thing in the garbage. But then he happened to see them opening. by accident for, I think, foreigner or something in London one day. He calls you up the next day and he goes, this is the best thing I've seen since I saw I see DC. I'm going to sign him.

So he signed him. We backdoored it into America. And then ultimately, of course, they became a monster hit. And it was a lot of fun while it lasted, you know. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess till, what, 85? Well, they at least had two. They had one. The first album was like a moderate success.

It was called You Can't Stop Rock and Roll. And the second one was stay hungry. And, of course, that was we're not going to take it. And I want to rock. and, you know, all that stuff. We're not going to take it. That changed my life. That?

Yeah. You're an old enough to remember that. I remember the video. What? Really? I thought you were born in 1994. Oh, I mean, I'm, uh, I saw some video tapes. Your oldest siblings told you about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. On the internet. But yes, yeah, we're not going to take it. Everything. So I guess you would, I guess one could say that you were like the new blooded Atlantic.

Whereas, because I've seen this happen where, something doesn't translate to someone that's a baby boomer. Like say one of your A&R peers who was born maybe in like 43, 44, 45, that's slightly older that thinks that this is just, you know, trash and wouldn't translate is absolute garbage. Whereas you, being slightly younger, being a, I guess you could say, a general. generation Xer, finds, makes sense of it all. And so, yeah, I mean, I loved, you know, I grew up on, when I was a kid, my favorite artists were Zeppelin, Arrow Smith, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, you know, those would probably be my top four. But there were so many, I mean, back then, you

had, you know, Queen would definitely be in my top five, too. I mean, those were the greatest, it was like the Renaissance to me, you know, musically in America and the world, actually, because most of those acts came from England. But it was just an incredible period. But I grew up on guitar music, right? I like guitar music. And so to me, the hard rock bands, and it peaked with Guns and Roses,

obviously I didn't sign Guns and Roses. But that era was, it's actually, I think a lot of those bands were underrated. I mean, some of them weren't. Some of them were terrible. But, you know, some of them were actually underrated. And I think Skid Row was a great band. Like, I mean, he was an incredible singer.

And those first two albums were magical. So did you sign all of the, the hair metal acts of Atlantic Were you responsible for most of them? I didn't sign rat. I missed that one. But most of them I signed. And, you know, it was...

I got to ask you, like my niche. Which one got away that you almost freaking had in... Love, I've been in therapy for years trying to forget them. All right, give me your top three. Your top three could have had them in...

Oh, fuck. I mean, I... Listen, I had a meeting with Bon Jovi early on. You know what I mean? Now, bear in mind, I think that Bon Jovi signing to Mercury was the best thing that could happen to him because they made a decision that they were going to put the whole building behind because they were going to go broke if they didn't break somebody.

And, you know, remember that company was, or it was a polygram? They were being sold for $50 million, the whole company. And also some genius at that company had the idea to put them together with Desmond Child, which on paper wouldn't seem to make sense, right? Desmond was like a gay guy, disco songwriter. Like Bon Jovi was sort of this, like, macho kid from New Jersey. doing rock and roll, but somebody had that vision to put them together, and that's where the greatest songs came from, was that collaboration.

Okay. So, you know, so who knows, you know, we can go back through history and, you know, and see what's what, but that would certainly be, you know. You could have had him. I think we could have had him. I think, you know, we came close. What else did I come close on? Oh, I mean, I tried, like, health assigned tool, but I didn't get them.

I would have loved to get tool. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why. I still don't know why. I mean, I schmoozed them and did whatever I could and didn't get it. And I can't think of the third one. It'll come back to me. So as a rocking guitar guy, I just have to know from a professional standpoint,

what was your feelings about the watershed moment in which Nirvana arrived and sort of rendered kind of the domino setup that you have for the 80s, almost void? I mean, I've heard tales of artist speaking. So what was your, when Nirvana came along and sort of marked the end of the hair metal guitar acts, did you feel a particular way about their arrival or were you like, okay, well, this is, this is on to the new and let me, you know, get ahead of the pack and see what else is out there? Or were you sort of a traditionalist hair metal and, you know, the way?

You know, I felt like you could kind of see it coming because my feeling is that my theory is that the musical trends are dictated by whoever makes the best music, right? That's how musical trends happen. Is that the most creativity. Are you sure about that, though? I think so. Why? What do you think? I think who has the most money because there's musical trends happening now that isn't necessarily the best music, but it's popular.

Like, can you separate the difference between popular and what you feel in your home? heart. Well, that's a very deep question, right? I mean, you know, okay, let's not, let's not call it musical trends then. Let's talk about movements, important movements happen, right? And then you can go back to, like, it's interesting when, even going back to when disco happened, right? Why did disco happen? Because the creativity was incredible back then, right? Or why did rap come up, right? And why is it still what it is? Because there's actual geniuses making music in that genre, right? They haven't been, any rock and roll genius is probably since Jack White. So, you know, it's hard for that to maintain when you don't have that influx of

creativity that you need to sustain a movement. And then even going back to what you were asking about with Nirvana, the hair band thing, like I said, it peaked with guns and roses, and then it went off a cliff, right? You had bands coming up and actually getting over that were terrible. I mean, and we can name them if we want to, but it was... Oh, let's... Oh, okay. So, yeah.

Any from Canada? No, I'm playing. I mean, you know, I don't want to mention names, but Bullet Boys and Trickster and Firehouse. I remember Firehouse. I grew up in Indiana, man. Okay, there you go. So, yeah, you could kind of see, like, this was not, this was like imitation stuff. And if they're listening, you know, I'll probably get, like, nasty direct messages on my Instagram.

But whatever, you know, the fact is, you know, it was ripe for change. and there's always a reaction. And then all of a sudden, the Seattle sound came up and you had geniuses again, right? You had Nirvana. I mean, I think Allison Chains was incredible. Obviously, Pearl Jam is music that people will be listening to 100 years from now.

So unfortunately, like I said, in guitar music, I think that was the last wave of music that will be time capsule music. I have a slight theory, though, because, okay, because hip-hop was created out of sort of the impoverished conditions of of the inner city and thus this culture comes in 77.

I have a weird feeling that what's going on right now in society, particularly with the slow rise or the you know, us finally acknowledging the literal white elephant in the room

of the alt-right. Okay. Kind of the, the, the, the, anger, be it justified or unjustified, whatever, you know, whatever your feelings are about it. But I almost feel like it's, it's that anger that might spark up rock and roll. Like what we knew as rock and roll, which was non-existence because, I mean, the reason why hip-hop sort of

replaced rock and roll because it was angrier. Like, it's like after fuck the police, like, where do you go from there? You can't get any deeper. And as far as, like, hip-hop's concerned, I always felt that 50 killed hip-hop. Oh, easily. After, after... No, no, I know where you're going with this.

Yeah, because after 50, there was no more money and scared white people. Yeah. After heat, after you get shot nine times and make it, it's like, okay, how do you become more super black than that? Right, exactly. Like, he said, I'll kill you. And then that's it.

After that song in Heat, you know, the song with Dr. Dre had the gun shot as the snare. To really drive the point home. That was the end. That was like you couldn't get no more extreme than that. And then hip hop is now, you know, user-friendly. It's not. That's a heavy baton. You think rock and roll is ready to pick that up?

Well, I mean, E.M. is trying. I think, like, Scrillix is trying to. But I feel like this general, I feel like millennials are so all-inclusive with mixing their cultures and everything that not even, EDM was scary, even though that was supposed to be the, supposed to be scary. The buzz noise. I mean, that was supposed to be, like, every generation has their rebel noise. We had 808.

The 708, the 70s had guitars, like the, the wub, sorry, you really think the 808 was our rubble? I figured it would have been the scratch, the record scratch. I would go more with the scratch, too. Okay, I can go over to scratch. 808's pretty scary, though. Well, not scary, but just the presence that it is. Impactful, like.

And I feel like, some anger is going to come out in music. Again, directed or misdirected, poverty or not. And I feel like... I wish you to hurry up, you know? I'm not going to say, Casey, do you feel that? Because you're there. I'm still waiting for it to happen when he said it was going to happen during the Bush era.

Yeah, it's... See, I was wrong. Yeah. It's actually weird that it hasn't happened because if there was ever a time to get angry, it's now. I mean, it's never been more obvious because, I mean, shit, George Bush looks like George Washington all of a sudden. Right? I mean, this motherfucker was the worst.

He was the worst president ever. And all of a sudden, everybody's wishing he was back. Yeah. I mean, if we could have a national referendum and bring him back, I'd lead it. You know what I mean? I'd be like, yeah. Let's get him up there. Either Bush, their current conditions.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Any one of them, absolutely. Barbara Bush. Yeah, Kay Bush. Yeah, that's his fucking McCain right. But you think, but you know what?

Maybe because music has become so corporately involved and I don't know, with the whole scaring of the NFL and things, you think maybe artists are taking note of that? and I'm going to speak a little, maybe I'm a gram, but... Right, how crazy that the civil rights leader of our era is a quarterback, right? I mean, how crazy is supposed to be music. I don't know what's going on. I mean, and I'm interested.

After Dixie Chicks, I don't think many people are too, right. People don't want to mess up their money. So that's what I'm asking. To be a musician now, like, you want to be, they want to be in bed with all the corporate sponsors and all that shit. So they don't want to say anything that will remotely even fuck up the chances of them getting some outside. bread. They want that Kit Kat commercial. They want their Kit Kat commercial. They want the Sprite commercial. They want all of that. But there's got to be some. I mean, that's a really, that's a, it really hurts me to hear you say that. And it's kind of, it feels that way, but it's very cynical.

And it's like, it sucks, you know, I mean, somebody's got to come out and be the new Dylan. You have to be the have-not. Like, whoever's going to be the new Dylan is, has to be a half-not. And be cool with being a half-not. I mean, you know, hip-hop is already tainted. You know, did he came along. It's too much money. Diddy came along and showed us all these outs and shit and, you know, I mean, even as righteous as I am. I'm trying. Kendrick is somewhere, you know. You know what's the best protest song I've heard in a while?

Did you ever know this song by Brett Denon, ain't no reason? Ooh, that's a good one. You may have to play it on the show. Yeah, it's about four years ago, and he hasn't, you know, become a commercial, you know, I was hoping he was going to become bigger because that song's powerful. Did you sign him? No.

Okay. I wanted to. But I think he may have stayed independent. I'm not sure what became. What's his name? Brent Denon. D. D-E-N-N-E-N-E-N, and the song is Ain't No Reason.

Ooh, strong shit. But so, yeah, somebody's going to come along. And you know what? Whoever it does and does it right is going to own it. Because nobody else is doing it. So there's that giant hole. David Foster likes to talk about that hole in the marketplace sometimes. I don't think this is what he meant.

But in this case, there is a void. And somebody's going to come along and fill that void. And, you know, some of the rappers are talking some straight stuff, right? Chance. But, yeah, I mean, chance. Logic. Yeah, logic, definitely. So, you know, but it doesn't, it's not anywhere near what it could be and should be.

Where's the Colin Kaepernick of music? Come on. Let's go. Celebrity has ruined the industry. And that's the thing. Even if we find that person, they're going to get off at a reality show in 15. They'll be lifted to celebrity heights so big that they can't, you know, they would have to, unfortunately. I mean, Kirk Cobain's solution to that, you know what his.

solution to avoiding becoming a cliche was. And that's, you know, sadly what the reality is. It's like we find something and we, in trying to avoid a cliche, he became one. I'll tell you this. I think somebody's out there probably listening to this show who's got that gene that won't let them be anything other than what they're meant to be, which is exactly what we're hoping for. You know, there's one motherfucker out there who's going to come out and be like, because they need

to, because they have to. And they don't care about, you know, sponsorships and they don't care about, you know, sponsorships. and they don't care about, you know? I mean, it exists. And like I said, the time is so ripe now, oh, my God. Then how do you keep that kind of person motivated to stay in the business? Because you get these acts that are, they get hyped up to become the next big thing, and then they turn to the J Electronica and disappear in front of an Xbox for six years.

I think that person does exist. And like I said, it's almost like they're going to have to. Look, McLemore made some really important records, right? I feel like every time he does it kind of... It almost backfired. It hasn't sustained. That white privilege, that song was amazing, but I feel like nobody ever heard it. Yeah, and so was the one about freedom.

Same love. Same love. What a beautiful, beautiful record. I mean, amazing. And some of the statements he made are so powerful. You know, I wish there was more of that, you know. But I'm an optimist, and I believe there will be. Because it has to be a reaction.

It always has to be in and yang. Speaking of which... Okay. I got to say, I was joking by saying, speaking of which, let's talk about Kid Rock. I got to say, even though his politics anger the shit out of me. Speaking of Kid Rock, I loved Hamilton. No, but I will say that of any story of an artist getting signed to a label,

his story is the greatest, funniest story of all time almost to the point where I think I would almost invite him on the show to do a one-on-one without you guys just to make you. No, no. You scared?

You scared? Oh, no. You should be. No, I mean, we were grilling. I mean, he ain't going to go goddamn cakewalk. Right. But I keep it respectful. Yeah, but his... Wait, did he run as in a Republican or something? Am I missing something?

He was bullshit. He wasn't running. He was trying to sell his album. He's not. Okay, because I appreciate get rock he said some things that have been on me not lately in the last 10 okay i haven't listened lately no no no no that shit is no okay i don't know him no anymore no no no jason is like silence no yeah no no no no more bar there ain't no bar with the bar that's what i thought how about those nicks you're in seven and man things you know looking up who won last movie so okay what i'm trying to move you down the timeline. Why did you leave Atlantic Records? Like, did you have, when, when, uh, I met Erdogan,

first of all, just, okay, you already explained that he was a guy, like, were you, was he approachable at all? Or was it, like, when he was in the building, everyone, like, straightened up and cleaned off their desk and pulled out the yo-yo and that's how I thought it, I was supposed to be until I met him. And then I realized that he was cooler than any of us, you know, and he could, he was known. I mean, he could drink any of the rock stars under the table. He could party with the best of them. What was his best story to you? Oh, his best story.

Your favorite I'm at Erdogan story? So he told me a story about when he was at Mick's wedding to Bianca. Which one? He was the best man. Oh, wow. And it was in the south of France. Beautiful day. And he tells me they're having a reception outdoors.

And everybody's there. All the local officials are there. The mayor, chief of police, everybody else. and he says Keith's walking around with a bag of blow. Of course he is. He's just

using one hand to shovel it into his face, right? And he literally bumps into the chief of police of whatever it is, niece or whatever town they're in, I don't remember it. And so the chief of police says to Ahmed in French, because Amit spoke French, he spoke a lot of languages, I think.

And he says to him, something I'm going to mess up to French, but he says, Kiske se el Pudre, right? Which I think means what is this powder, right? Right. And Ahmed goes, oh, you know what? Of course, in French, but he says,

they're not only musicians, also they're clowns. And he starts pulling the stuff out and popping it on his face, right? Oh, wow. And his eyes jump out of his head. What? Yeah, only Ahmed could do that, right? But he had stories of Jim Moore. I mean, all the, you know, like everybody.

I mean, it's so great being around him, you know. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place. for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by.

Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield. in this new season of The Girlfriends, Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated

the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target.

He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the Girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you get your podcast. I'm Ago Wadam. My next guest, you know from

Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo. Woo! My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day,

and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up-and-coming talent. He said,

If it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat.

Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right. be that. There's a lot in luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft, and we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East-West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports

Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

for wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I do want to get back to how I left Atlantic, by the way, because that's a great story. All right, how did you leave? I got fired over a poem that I wrote. Wait, what?

Spoken word, get you every time. So the story goes like this. I wasn't expecting this morning. So I was working there. I had been named almost 25 years to the day that I walked in there on July 31, 1979. It was my first day working in Atlantic. And, you know, 18 years old, about 25 years later, I get named chairman and CEO of the company. I sold my company Lava to them and they offered me the job.

You know, it's funny because my first reaction when they said, you know, you can actually run the place. I was like, you mean, I get to decide whether it's a snow day? Like, I mean, I can't believe. I was like, are you kidding? Me? Because I still felt like that 18-year-old kid, you know? This is under Doug Morris now? Yeah, it's under Doug.

What year was he? No, no, no. This was under Leor now. Leor was now running it. And Edgar, yeah, Edgar had bought the company, and Leor was running it, right? The Leor years. There you go.

So, strangely enough, I didn't get along with Leor. I know. Guess what? All the guests have been on this show have their best Leor imitations ever. So even when you talk Leor, say it in the Leor accent. Because we'll have a compilation of everyone imitating Leor on the show.

So this is Lear on the show. This is Leor on the golf course. You ready? Oh, my God. Did you see how I hit that ball? You cannot hit the golf ball any better than that. That was incredible. That shot was amazing.

No, I don't mean the president of the United States. I'm talking about Leo. No, he sounds like Trump. We don't want you to do the president of the United States. Lear Co. Do Lear Cohen. Let me see. Let me do a different.

Okay. By the way, I had the misfortune of playing nine holes with Trump about six or seven years ago. It was a horrible experience. But anyway. Okay, we're going to come back to you. We're going to come back to that. Wait, can I ask you, in order to make it to that big money

level, am I going to have to learn how to play golf? Oh, I think you're doing okay. I mean, I don't know who your accountant is, but if you're not, you should probably get a new one. He's talking about next level power. Let's talk about... I'm talking about adding extra zeros to my bank account,

because that's the one common denominator that all my peers now that are jumping to that film that are making that successful film and Louise cliff jump to the other side of the mountain they're all suddenly like playing golf and I'm like Not Puff doesn't play golf does he He's learning well he does in the music video so I do it soon He never mentioned it to me

Do you like golf or do you know that's the language of the wealthy? No no I like golf it's really fun it's a really fun sport And it's exercise And, you know, I actually broke Kid Rock as a result of a golf game. So it's been, it's very good for business. You know, because think about it. You're out there for four hours. You're walking around.

You're socializing. You know, it's beautiful. You're walking around on grass and there's like trees and water and birds and shit. It's nice. And you get to ride a go cart. And I'll tell you something, when you hit a golf ball correctly, which doesn't happen that often for even the best pros, they'll say, like, you know, they don't actually like, but when you actually pure the golf ball, you can feel the ball compressed because

You know, that's physics, right? The ball compresses and then it explodes out the energy, explodes out the other side. And you can actually feel the ball compress against the club through your hands and into your soul. I mean, it is like being connected to the center of the fucking universe. And then you get, unlike other sports, nobody hits you, nobody tackles you. You don't have to run. You don't have to catch anything.

You just stand there and admire your work as the thing sails out over the horizon and lands gently on the green. I mean, it's a feeling that is, it's organic. You do need a couple coins, though. That is the sport that you need coins for, because you got to get into the golf course. But you're fine. Okay. Well, you can play public golf courses all the time.

And warm up. I used to play public golf courses all the time before. Do they? Straight free or just like $20? Well, no, you got to, yeah, I mean, you got to pay something. Yeah. I like playing. I do, I like playing.

I don't mean put putt putt. I mean puttuff. Is y'all black defying me? I like to play golf. I've had a couple men in my life. How come I've never seen it on your Instagram or? Yeah. Well, I haven't dated.

I don't have a man that, you know. Why you got to wait for a man to do it? I don't wait, but I'm just saying it's nice to do it with a partner. Okay, so let's go play some golf and we'll post it on our Instagram. Just so love can see it, okay? What are we created? Yeah, we're going to go do it. I would love that.

I'll take you out and play in the snow because it's getting cold out. I don't care. Okay, wait. Do you judge potential business partners or people that you're going to work with based on their golf game? No. I mean, I don't care how somebody plays. As long as they don't play slow.

If you're starting out, just don't play slow. You know what I mean? nobody cares if you're good or bad or whatever. Everybody's pretty wrapped up in their own shit. But, you know, you just like keep it moving. And, you know, it's a fun, it's a fun game. It's an extremely frustrating game, too, by the way. It's the craziest thing because some days you can, or you go from hole to hole,

you could play like Tiger Woods one hole, and the next hole you're playing like soupy sales, you know? So, yeah, it's really weird. What a reference, I know. So, wait, so back, I got to tell you the poem story before I forget. So, rabbit hole. So I wasn't getting along with Lear, right? Okay.

I don't know. I found it ironic that his name was liar. You know what I mean? Not the only one. Go ahead. The irony was killing me day to day. So we didn't get along, and it was a very frustrating experience. You know, it was a fun time, and I signed Haley Williams back then.

It was called Paramour, right? And it was, you know, I was only chairman of Atlantic for about a year, but it was good. It was, you know, I loved the job. What year was it? That was, I'm going to say, 2003 or four, something like that. Okay. It was before you guys signed. Yeah, it was right before we signed.

No, no, no, no. 2005 probably. Whatever. It was right around there. That was when we signed. My group, little brother, we signed like 0, 4, or 5. I think we... Why didn't fuck that up for you?

Anyway. Nah, you did. It was kind of already fucked up for what we got to you, so it was cool. Got it. Dodge that bullet. Okay. Wouldn't it be funny if this was, like, not even a real podcast. Like, it was revenge for that.

Anyway, go ahead, go ahead. It's a big sell. And then he represents you for the revit. No, forget it. Oh, my God. Everyone's always out to get the Jews anyway. You're going to replace us. That's what I hear.

I had to go there. So, yeah, right. Don't get me started. I can't believe Steve is quiet. Come on, Steve. This is the quiet as you've ever been. I do it to you. I'm not feeling well, so I'm just laying back.

And Jason's guy, he's doing for me. Yeah. Solidarity. So. Can I ask you an old question? just go back real quick. Old question. Not an old question,

a question from your coming up. Because I thought I read something. He didn't finish the golf story earlier. The poem. Sorry, the poem. But don't forget your question. I won't forget it. Write it down like.

Write it down like. I did. So anyway, so here it is about a year and a quarter into my tenure as chairman and CEO of my favorite record company, the World Atlantic Records. And Edgar was going to be honored by the UJA at a music industry.

luncheon as a humanitarian of the year award or whatever I think it was. And so the United Jewish Appeal, right? Major Jewish charity, wonderful, wonderful charity. Anyway, so there was a kickoff breakfast, and the chairman of all the different companies came. And so I pledged a bunch of money to the UJ and Edgar's honor, which was the appropriate thing to do. And also I think it's a great charity.

So a couple weeks go by and I get a call from, I don't know, somebody from the UJA, Steve, Stu, whatever his name was, right? And I'm like, hey, what's up? And he goes, you know, you gave us a bunch of money. You know, you get a full-page ad in the booklet, you know, but it's due tomorrow. You know, what do you want it to say? So off the top of my head, now bear in mind, our stock had just gone public

and wasn't doing so well. You probably remember that. Warner Music Group stock. The IPO had just happened. So off the top of my head, I said, how about this? Roses are reddish, violets are bluish. Our stock's in the toilet, but at least we're both Jewish. Oh.

Oh, no. No. No. I don't know the guy's name was, Steve Stewart. He goes, are you sure about that? I was like, ah, you said I have 24 hours. Let me run it by a few people, right? So I read it by a few people.

Everybody's reaction was as same as yours. And I even called up Edgar's brother-in-law, who was working at the company at that time. And I said to him, it was Alex. I said, Alex, what do you think? Like, I mean, you know, I tried to rewrite it, but you can't. It's perfect. Right? You couldn't change one word in that.

It's poetic. Perfection. So I call Alex. I'm like, he says, listen, Edgar has a wonderful sense of humor. I know he's going to love this. In fact,

I'm so sure that if he doesn't, I'll take the heat. I was like, okay. So I had the art department mock up the ad with some roses on the page and stuff, you know? And what I didn't anticipate was that people at the lunch, you know, it's not the most exciting lunch in the world, right?

I mean, you've got some speeches there. They're a little bit ponderous. And so what do you do in these luncheons? You go through the booklet, right? And every ad's the same. congratulations, you're wonderful, whatever, you have a fantastic honor, humanitarian, this, that,

you're a schmuzer, you're fantastic. And then you come to my ad, and people were like spitting out their food. You're trying to, you're trying to knock the laugh because everything's quiet because the guy's up there making a speech about a serious issue, right? About they're helping people and, you know,

wherever they are, the things they're doing and, you know, and you can't be just breaking out. And then make matters worse, the Daily News ran my poem Under the headline, Edgar can't even get respect from his own CEO. Yikes. Man, they sisoned this shit. And so I guess that didn't...

Fortunately, I didn't have a poetry closet by contract. So I was paid... I got fired and I got paid out and then I went to run Virgin. And, you know, that was a fun time too. So, you know... And actually, when I took over Virgin, I'll show you this. I took over... You can't see it on the radio, but I'm going to show it to you anyway. When I took over Virgin, which was shortly thereafter,

the hottest movie in the country was the 40-year-old Virgin. Everybody remembers that iconic poster with his face on it, right? So I decided rather than run a normal announcement, Jason Flomney, chairman and CEO Virgin Records, I decided to take a picture as him, right? So I bought a wig and I bought a shirt, and this is what it, I don't know if I can pull this out of my wall to show it to you. I ran this ad full page and Billboard and hits. He pulled the Andre Hero.

I got to take, maybe we can put this on it. Yeah, except for, I mean, come on. Oh, let me take a picture of it for everybody listening, and then we'll post this. Can we use that photo for it? Yeah. Advertise the show. You use it for whatever you want.

Oh, my God. That was my thing. Yeah. Oh, I think I bent the card in the process. I can get you a clean one, though. But yeah, so it was really a fun time. Virgin was great. You know, we turned that place around.

That was, you know, red jumpsuit apparatus was the first thing I signed. Actually, the day after I got there. And then Katie Perry and, you know, the 30 seconds of Mars was amazing. You know, Jared Letto was a force of nature. That guy, he's one of those rare people that everything he does. Like Jamie Fox. Right? Everything he does is perfect. It's like annoying almost, right?

Yeah. Well, not every single, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Most what he doesn't. By the way, I got that same feeling watching Hamilton. You know what? The worst thing about going to see Hamilton is. Tell us, James. I'll tell you right now, you sit there and you just feel,

I feel so inadequate. You know what I mean? Not only because of the unreal accomplishment of Lynn Manuel Miranda, writing and producing and doing everything around that show, but also Hamilton himself. You say they're going, I haven't done shit in my life. Oh my God. People are like, hey, you're doing pretty good.

I'm like, nah, I haven't done anything. It sucks. So, yeah, what a thing. It's like listening to Jay-Z. Like, he just brags about how great his life is. Well, yeah, that's an interesting analogy. You know, but, and yeah, and Hamilton, I mean, good for you, by the way. I mean, it really is.

And by the way, there's the rebelliousness, ironically, right, that we had to go back to the founding fathers to get some rebelliousness back in our culture. And it is, but it's, It's so nice to see how that thing has become, you know, what it is because it's so important and it's so profoundly. It's just, I mean, it's perfect. It's one of the only, when I went to see that and people are like, well, it was the first time. And people are like, is it as good as the hype?

I'm like, you know, it's probably the best thing since either prints at the bottom line or Zeppelin at the garden. Did you see Hamilton pre-hype or like $2,000 a ticket hype? So here's what happened. It's amazing. My son is in the business, Mike Flom. And he's really excited. I'm on your show, by the way. But anyway, because he's a student of the game.

Set out to Mike. And he was working, when he was 16 years old, he started working with Royce to 5'9. Okay. And so we were down in the studio with Royce in Atlanta. And I started talking to him about Hamilton. and he goes, this is when Hamilton first come out. And he was like, oh, that guy called me the other day, the Lynn Manuel Miranda guy. I was like, what did you say?

He goes, I didn't know who he was. I didn't take his call. I was like, holy shit, dude. Like, are you like, let's get on the phone and get us in. You know, like, and so he called and Lynn got us tickets. And I went with his manager as well as my son, Mike, to, like Flam to see Hamilton. So it was pretty early on. And then Lynn took us backstage afterwards because, you know, Lynn,

Well, you know better than anybody. He loves the great ones. And Royce is one of the real greats in hip-hop, in my opinion. So we got to see it as his guess, and it was just a magical, magical experience. So I need to know with you being the position that you're in, as far as being in the business, by that point, like 30-plus years, running, three labels and pretty much signing like, you know, people's highlights. Yeah. How in the hell did you sort of take a detour into social justice?

Because I feel like if you, if you're going to do something, you got to do it well and really put your heart into it, not just like Jack of all trades, master of none. So what the thing is is that you're, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, your history shows that you're, you know, you're deeper than one foot is planted, planted deeply into the music business and well, but, you know, your work with social justice shouldn't be scoffed at either because, like, why? I'm not saying why because, like, people behind in, in the board room shouldn't care about the, you know, the have-nots, but what, like, what happened? Like, what compels you to even care? Can you just add a little layer of who your parents

were to even heavier up that situation because the fact that you so didn't have to go this way is kind of ill to me because I know we haven't discussed where you came from and which I heard your father did some amazing things in the business world so it's really like you really did not have to do this right yeah my dad was my dad was my hero you know he was the son of immigrants grew up as poor as you could be he was so poor that back then in Brooklyn when he was growing up they'd give you your first month free if you moved and they would move every month that's how poor he was and he went to city college at night and uh it's a great story actually when he got out of the army he wrote a letter to harvard law school and he said i don't have any money and i don't have a

college degree but i'm the best thing since sliced bread and i'm a soldier and if you let me in you won't regret it and they gave him a full scholarship to harvard law school and he became wait that's all that's all that's all yeah not anymore and i also thought you were going to do some roses of red cup with like that was me that was all me but he no he you know that was when you know that was when we actually used to treat our GIs as with respect, right, as they should be, you know, treated. But don't get me started on that. But yeah, so he became one of the greatest lawyers of the 20th century. And, you know, there's a chapter and outliers about him, the three lessons of Joe Flom.

But moreover, he told me and my brother, do whatever you want to do, try to be the best at it, but just make the world a better place. He says, if you do that, that's success. That's what I call success. and I wanted to be a success in his eyes. So, yeah, so he, you know, he was very driven to make the world a better place himself. He was very strong on civil rights and on racial equality. And was that mergers and acquisitions thing true too? Like he created a concept or something like that?

Yeah, well, he basically pioneered hostile takeovers and proxy contests and all that stuff. And it was at a time when, you know, Jewish lawyers couldn't get jobs at Wall Street firm. So he went to a firm that had four, he was the fifth lawyer and they had no clients, you know, but they were, you know, they're trying to figure it out. And then he found this niche. And by the time the Wall Street firm started getting into it, it was too late. He was dominant, you know. So, and then he built his law firm up into one of the most powerful in the world.

And, you know, but he did it, he always did it the right way. He never cut corners. He, you know, he treated people with respect. And, you know, I remember him defending. you know, cases. And he did, they did a lot, they still do a ton of pro bono work, including for the Innocence Project, by the way. Scaden is the firm. It was Scadden Arp, Slate, Morin, Flom. And, um, because he was the young guy when they started. But, um, yeah, so he, I remember him when he defended the, uh, they were trying to, uh, get rid of evolution, the teaching of

evolution in one of those states, Kansas or something. And he sent his scadden, like, team of lawyers out there. And he was so excited when he came back and they won, you know, that was his shit, you know. So anyway. So, yeah. So, So I grew up with... Just casually did this. I grew up with him and my mom. You know, my mom graduated Cornell when she was 18, which she used to remind me all the time,

especially when I was dropping out of college. But anyway... 18. What did your mother do? What did your mother do? My mother was... She was doing various things. She was actually a decorator when she met my dad.

That's how she met my dad. When he first got any money, it was because he was in an accident. He got hit by a taxi and was in the hospital for a long time and got some money, so he hired a decorator. And that's how he met my mom. So, yeah, you know, wherever your mind goes there, I guess it can go.

But anyway... So it was Fun So yeah, that's how I grew up And then But what happened Was that in 92 or three I read a story in the newspaper

About a kid that was serving 15 years to life For a nonviolent first defense Cocaine Possession Charge in New York State And he was in maximum security prison And the reason it was in the newspaper Was because his mother had been trying to get clemency From Governor Cuomo This was the first Governor Cuomo

Mario Cuomo And she had had she was just a homemaker from upstate New York, from Rome, New York, and she had gotten letters from the judge, the warden. Geraldine Ferraro had written a letter on her behalf, right? So that's why it was in the newspaper because Cuomo turned down Ferraro,

who was asking for clemency for this kid who had been in for eight-something years already. Like I said, let's just reflect nonviolent first offense, right? Cocaine possession. Can you, for our listeners that don't know, can you explain the history of the Rockefeller law so that they know why New York's laws have been tougher in the early 90s? It's odd, you know, when you think about it,

but New York has some of the worst laws in the country. I mean, you would think that the Rockefeller laws would be more, you know, something that you would see in Mississippi or Alabama or something like that. But the fact is the Rockefeller drug laws came up under Governor Nelson Rockefeller at a time when everybody was getting tough on drugs and war on drugs and all this stuff. And, you know, they made it extremely... They put it in the community. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, there's that too. too. But yeah, so they made these crazy mandatory sentencing laws. And basically they took all the power away from the judges and gave it to the prosecutors. So the only way out of a mandatory sentence is to rat on somebody else. And so the prosecutors literally have all the power so they can sit there and say, you look, what do you want to do? Or you can plead guilty, right? But even if it's something you didn't do, otherwise you're looking at this mandatory sentence of, you know, could be decades in prison. And, you know, you never. want to find yourself in that position. And judges, in so many of these cases, judges, as they're sentencing somebody will say, I wish I didn't have to do this. You know, and I had one guy that I was talking to who had been sentenced to, I don't know, 20 or more years in prison and he was out now

and he said to me, you know, that was the thing to kill me was when the judge said, I wish I could give you probation. And I'm sitting there going, wait, I can accept the sentence, but not when, I mean, like, how's that working? You know what I mean? Like, and I use that for my pill? Yeah, it's just, it's really sickening. So anyway, in this particular case, I just read this story, and I was flabbergasted, you know? Like, I was like, I didn't know about these mandatory sentencing laws, as most people don't until they get caught up in it. So I contacted a music business lawyer, a defense lawyer I knew. The only defense lawyer I knew was a guy named Bob Kalina.

He represented Stone Devil Pilots in Skid Row, and they used to get in trouble a lot, as you remember. Oh, yeah. I had him on several down. So I called Bob. I was like, Bob, can you do anything about this? He says, nothing you can do about it? It's a Rockefeller drug laws. It's just the way it is.

I was like, well, can you talk to this woman on the phone? Because I'd called Mrs. Lennon. Her name was in the newspaper, Shirley Lennon. I just called her, and I said, look, you probably think I'm some freak from New York, but I got to do something. I don't have a lot of money because I didn't back then, but I'll send you what I can. Maybe you get a new appeal or something.

And she said, oh, Jason, he goes, we've exhausted. We've spent all of our savings on lawyers, and we've exhausted all of our appeals. And this was our last home. hope. And she says, you know, the crazy thing is there was a murderer who went to the prison, same prison as my son after my son, and he's out. And my son's not eligible parole for another seven years. And I was like, and this is for cocaine powder possession? Yeah, cocaine powder possession. It was 4.2 ounces, right? So it wasn't a little bit, but the fact is, even still,

you know, the cliff, there's a cliff, right? Over four ounces in New York State possession is an A1 felony. So it's like, you know, it's like murder one. Two to four ounces. is an A2, but he had 4.2 ounces. Now, is there a difference if it's powder cocaine or if it's crack? I mean, back in 91. Well, we're talking, I don't know exactly what the difference was back then. That was when crack was first coming up, right? But in the federal system, there's a huge difference.

And I actually worked on the legislation that rolled back the mandatory sentencing laws with crack, because crack used to be treated 100 times more severely than Coke. Right. And there's a very simple reason why. And I don't have to tell you what it is because there's all smart people in the room. Right. So, yeah, so I worked with Senator Durbin and others on that bill, which was the first mandatory sentencing rollback in America in 40 years.

And the best deal we could make with the Republicans was to change it from 100 to 1 to 1. And the worst part of it is that it wasn't done retroactively, which always blows my mind. Like if we're acknowledging that a law is wrong, how is it wrong now, but it wasn't wrong before? It doesn't make any sense. and I worked very actively on the clemencies that President Obama granted to so many of those people that are serving, what are illegal sentences. So you're saying that once it was turned around, they decided to not even go back to reverse all those wrongful convictions. No, like I said, it wasn't retroactively. So if you were so, if you were so misfortune as to be busted before the law was changed, you're still sitting there in prison.

You got to eat that. And I was, you know, I was really trying hard to get, the Obama administration to grant clemency to all of those people, unless they had committed some terrible crime while they're in prison, because, again, it doesn't make any sense. How can you say that, how can you look that guy in the eye and go, dude, you should have been busted a few weeks later, you know? You'd be out, you'd be home with your family.

You'd have four years instead of 25, whatever it would be. It's, you know, it's literally, it was reduced by 80-something percent the sentences, but those people are still in. Now, President Obama did grant clemency to a lot of them. and I worked with the NACDL and other organizations on those clemencies and he granted over 1,700 clemencies. Not all of them were crack sentences, but a lot of them were. But there's still thousands of other people who are still stuck in there.

And obviously they're going to be for the foreseeable future if they're in the federal system. But back to the original story. So Bob, as a favorite of me, calls Mrs. Lennon, and he says to me, look, I don't have any. hope for this, but I'm going to read the transcripts as a favor to you, because I was a good client, I guess, right? And he takes the case, pro bono. And five

months later, we ended up in a courtroom in Malone, New York, by the Canadian border. And I was sitting there, they brought Stephen in in shackles. I was like, who is he? Charles Manson? This is ridiculous. His legs were chained together, his hands were chained to his waist. And I sat there holding Mrs. Lennon's hand, and the judge

who I thought was never going to give us a break, because he looked like a conservative. guy. He said something. I haven't heard anything in this courtroom today under statute, this section, that, blah, blah, blah. He was all this legal mumble, I don't know what he's talking about. And then he goes, but under the power vested in me that is stayed in New York,

the motion is granted. Whoa. And I was like, what the fuck? And then Bob comes over. I was like, Bob, what happened? He goes, we won. I was like, get the fuck out of him. Why?

So he, so, so Bob found this angle, right? which is that he, and I don't even know how this worked, but there were two kids in the car when Stephen got arrested. He was driving and his friend was in the pastor's seat. They got pulled, one of them got out to take a leak, apparently, and a cop saw him and came over and searched the car. Found the coke under the seat. Whose is it?

Most kids say it's not mine. Well, everybody should know out there, if you're in a car and the drugs are in the car, it's yours. Right? It belongs to everybody. It belongs to everybody in there. There could be 20 of you in the car. It could be a clown car, okay?

It belongs to everybody. And all of it belongs to everybody. Because it's possession, not ownership. That's what I had a cop. So, um... How much coke was it, though? Like, 4.2 ounces? So, um, just over the cliff, right?

Just over the limit. It's really the terrible, terrible coincidence there. So, um, so both kids said it wasn't mine. Both kids pleaded innocent. Steven's lawyer told him, I will, I will win this case or I'll hang up my shingle, right? He should have pleaded guilty because he was guilty. but the other kid was not guilty. The other kid was a passenger.

And both of them ended up getting 15 years to life. Now, after he went to prison, Steve... Even the passenger ended up getting it, too? Yeah. So after he went to prison, Stephen wrote letters saying, listen, this was me. It wasn't him. But their response was too late.

You should have said so before. So they eventually allowed the other kid whose name, I don't remember, to plead down to an A2 felony. I think he was released after eight years for something he didn't do. by the way. Oh my God. Dude. I would have

and then my guy, Bob went in and said you can't treat the same crime. It's the same crime. You can't treat the two guys differently for the same crime. They both convicted the same crime. Basic, you know, I'm garbily. It was 25 years ago, but that was the basic argument.

And it worked. You know, and Stephen got out. You can't send us one guy to eight years and another guy to 20 for the same thing. Yeah, 15 of life was a sentence. Yeah. So, you know, so anyway, it was a cathartic experience, as you can imagine. And I said, holy shit, that was the best feeling I know.

I mean, losing my virginity was good, but this was even better. You know what I mean? By the way, I lost my virginity of a yes concert of Madison Square Garden. What? In the crowd? In Madison's Garden. Yes. You said yes or yes?

Yes. Yes. Yes. That would have been funkier. In the crowd? In the audience? You said yes. I thought he said yes.

I was like, yo, that's that fucking dope. It was actually in the skybox in the bathroom. Yeah. It wasn't real romantic. But anyway. That's nice. But that's how I knew I was getting up working at Atlantic, because yes, it was on Atlantic. Anyway, so what I did then was I, you know, the experience, you know, hit me so hard that I did some research.

I found out about families against mandatory minimums, which you talked about before, fam, which had just started. I called them up. I joined their board. That led me to the Drug Policy Alliance, the Legal Action Center. And then I saw something on TV about the Innocence Project. And that's when I really, like, went into overdrive because that hit me. This was, again, almost 25 years ago. project had just started and one of their cases was on TV and I was like holy shit that's even

worse right this is a motherfucker who is innocent and got sentenced to death or life in prison or whatever it was and I called them up and you know at the time there's only the only the two founders working there and maybe a maybe a I don't know maybe they had a receptionist or something and so you could just call and get them on the phone I went in and met with them and I said I'm all in and I was and I became the founding board member and it's really become my life's work I mean, I, you know, I still love music and I love my job, but I love this more. More than Twisted Sister. This is more important than Twisted Sister to you.

Oh, look who woke up. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this plastic.

became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes

of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are changing. something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And Rule 2, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends... Oh my God, this is the same man.

A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care, so they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Ego Wode. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with him one day.

And I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place they come, look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit.

If you saw it written down, it would not be an instant. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft.

And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else.

If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, for wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slico Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. When we were in the elevator before, I was at a table, you were talking that you were in Virginia.

You were doing some work in Virginia. You were at a prison in Virginia before you came here. Yesterday, yeah. Yesterday, yeah. What was that about? So I do, you know, I have a podcast now called Wrongful Conviction. Yes, you do. And on it, I interview.

Dog. I interview people who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes they didn't commit. It's a very heartbreaking podcast. I mean, redemption at the end, but to hear people lose those decades, man. So one story is crazier than the other. And sometimes I go inside prison and interview people who I believe to be innocent, who need to get out. But also, on occasion, I will, and now my inbox is going to be flooded.

But, you know, I only have 24 hours in a day like anybody else. But sometimes if I think I can make a difference, I'll take on an individual case that's not an Innocence Project case. or I'll just join a team that's already working to try to get somebody exonerated and try to connect the dots, either with the legal team or with, you know, clemency, which I've been successful at enough times. You know, I have a saying I've seen too many miracles to stop believing in miracles, and it is a miracle when it works.

But I've got, you know, I've been successful more than a few times on taking on a case that I see in injustice and actually getting, that person freed. Wow. Can I ask you, do you guys work with prisoners inside of the prison? Like, I ask, it's personal to me because I have a friend who's been inside the New Jersey prison system for a while now, highly educated, an activist in a way. And it's funny because he actually sent me a whole essay about what's going on with the water system.

They actually had a whole bunch of water coming to the prison when the water was dirty and they never used it. It was bags and bags and bags and bags of water. So he wrote this essay about how they actually had a whole bunch of water. balloon party and the guards, you know, kind of just poured it out at a time when we're going through what we're going through with Puerto Rico, you know. And so, you know, he kind of felt some type of way about that and wrote the essay. But I'm curious, is there an opportunity for prisoners in that way, organizational-wise, to speak, and it's hard for them to speak out. So I don't know if you have any direction with that. In terms of speak out about the issues that are going

that are wrongful inside of the prison as well. Yeah, I mean, that's a whole other area that I'm not an expert on. They're definitely organizations that are devoted to that. I know the correctional association in New York is one of them. And I know the New Jersey prison system is a mother anyway. They all are. Reputation. Really? Really? There's no good prison. It's funny

because I was like in my mind, is there a top three like states where it's like, where you don't. Where you don't want to go to jail? You just don't want to be there. Well, I mean, there's a long list. I mean, it's, you know, look, we are in a situation now where we have 4.4% of the world's population, right?

Almost 4.5% of the world's population. We have 25% of the world's prison population. So we lock people up at more than five times the rate of the rest of the civilized world. Now, chew on this one. We lock up black men in America per capita at a rate that is six times higher than South Africa at the height of apartheid. Okay? Just fucking chew on that for a second.

And then there's women, right? Which is the fastest growing part of the president. prison population. We have 33% of the world's female prison population. So what do you can, what kind of conclusions can you draw from this? What is that doing to families? Oh my God, it's incredible. Mama and daddy is locked up. What is it done? Yeah, or in a lot of cases, a single parent, you know, whatever it is, it's still devastating to the communities. And it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't work. It doesn't promote public safety. It doesn't help anything or anybody except the, you know, private prison industry, which is only 6%

of the prisons, but still that's too much. It should be no private prisons. And, you know, prisons should be focused on rehabilitation. First of all, we had 300,000 people in prison 30 years ago, you know what I mean? Like... Now we're at... 2.2 million. Okay. Including a half a million

who right now, while we're sitting here, eating donuts and playing ping pong and talking about fucking whatever... I don't know what you're talking about, man. Exactly. So, there's a half a million people in jail in America, right now just because they can't post bail. And that's another thing I've been extremely active in is bail reform. And that's starting to really feel like a movement now. Because you can't have a system

in which we have two, we have two separate systems of justice. That's what it comes down to. One if you have money, one if you don't have money. And that is a violation of the Sixth Amendment and the 14th Amendment, equal protection and due process. And the Brown laws, because I feel like this opioid epidemic is not going to provide as many prisoners in prison as the crack epidemic. I don't know. That's a reasonable. First of all, they're all dying. You know what I mean?

So you can't put them in prison after they're dead. But somebody's selling it to them and it's not just in the pharmacy. Yeah. So. Yeah. No, it's bad. I mean, 64,000 opioid deaths in America last year. It passed, uh, it became the number one cause of death.

I believe it, but I do not think that it will have the impact of crack. No, they're not going to lock them up to what they lock them. No, no, no, of course. And that goes back to like, oh, do we really even have to say it? Sometimes you do. Sometimes you, and today in 2017, unfortunately, you do. Well, I would like to ask a question. 2018?

Because I feel like the Mount St. Helens of Innocent Project poster representative, I would like to know what your feelings are, or if you even tried to come close to anything remotely touching the case of Philadelphia's own. Mumia Abul Jamar. And do you think that there's any chance in hell that even if this case could be reopened and reintroduced with whatever new, you know, because I've been hearing like since the 90s that there's evidence that they wouldn't let us enter and the da-da-da-da-da-da-da. But I also know, you know, I'm a Philadelphian, especially growing up doing the Frank Rizzo era.

It's a miracle you're here. I'm telling you real talk and so it's not just for everyone like him but him specifically do you think there's any chance whatsoever

or is it just a loss cause and as far as people constantly rallying for him and does the Innocence Project even touch

see something that they touch The Innocence Project Now there are 50 something Innocence Projects around the country The main one is the hub is in New York. That's the one where I'm on the board. And we only work on DNA cases. And I don't believe his is a DNA case.

I think it's a shooting case. But so I haven't been directly involved in his case. But I will say, and I think it's worth mentioning. And then we'll get back to this, that there was a wonderful article in Rolling Stone magazine about a guy named Tony Wright, who was on my podcast as well. And I'm going to plug it again, wrongful conviction. But Tony was wrongfully convicted and served 25. years in prison in Pennsylvania. And in the article, one of the bylines it says in 1990,

whatever year it was that he was arrested, a black man had a better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia, Mississippi than he did in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And that was really the case for a long time. Now, what's interesting is, and where it may pertain, and Tony's out now, and he's an amazing, amazing guy, and I encourage you to read that article. So the good news is there's a new DA in Philadelphia who was elected in November, who is a former, I think he's a former civil rights lawyer, actually. He's a fantastic, fantastic guy. And he is going to make a systemic change in the way justice is served in Philly. Is served in Philly.

And who knows? I don't know whether that will provide, you know, an opportunity for Momea to. to get out. I mean, not even, you know, other, I have a layman's understanding of the movie of Jabarqq. Abul-Aab. Abul-Jamar case. But, you know, there's certainly there's light, you know, and it's important to note.

There's a wonderful organization called the Justice and Safety Pack who are backing progressive DAs in races like that one, where, because it makes such a huge difference. You now have a, Houston and Chicago. Say it packed again because people need to know.

It's called the Justice and Safety Pack. And look it up, give money, get involved. It's an incredible group. They're electing amazing people. We have a black woman DA in Chicago now, also in Houston.

And when they come in, the difference that it makes in so many cases is amazing because like we said, the prosecutors have all the power. I know. The Philly one kind of fucked up, but hopefully.

I don't know if y'all. artist. Oh yeah, yeah, he's got serious issues. Got big problems. And yeah, I mean, and I don't want to, you know, we're not going to be those people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not going to open that door. Democratic. No, we're not going to open that door.

So what would you recommend to, especially in the age of social media and how the way that news is spread now and awareness is spread and an alarming rate that it hasn't been done before. What would you recommend for those that simply don't know just small minuscule entry ways that they can

get involved politically with helping out you know, the Innocence projects and these various organizations that help people in their situation. I mean just beyond retweeting something and saying,

since fucked up. You know, like what's what's step two to get to there? Because I think a lot of people just, even before meeting you, I would just think like, wow, okay, well, social justice, I'm kind of interested. Where do you start? Yeah. Yeah, but then it's like, oh, God, I don't know if I could do that and my day job at the same time. But are there ways to involve yourself that, you know, doesn't necessarily take up all the time of your day? or is this like you just got to jump in the river and swim with piranha and snakes and bears?

No, I mean, look, you know, I'm very lucky. I've been, you know, fortunate to be successful in business. And now I can do things at my pace. I also have a small company now. You just don't run big companies, so I have more time. And, you know, and, you know, and ultimately it makes me feel good. I call it selfish altruism, you know. I mean, I like helping people.

And I like helping the helpless. And I can't imagine anyone more helpless than someone who's stuck in our gulag system for a crime they didn't commit. And so if I can make a difference in that way, then that, you know, that, I don't know. Like, I actually, you know, I had this thought yesterday. Like I spent the day in a maximum security prison in Virginia yesterday. And I was leaving. I was like, you know what? There's nowhere else I would have rather been.

You know, I could be playing golf and pebble beach or doing this. I could be doing whatever the fuck I want. But it was an amazing, amazing experience. I met with two guys who I'm helping. One of them's been in for 31 and a half years for a crime that he had nothing to do with. And DNA proves it. And, you know, and the other guy's been in for 10. And it's a very interesting and complicated case.

But, you know, I'm going to make a difference in these two people's lives. DNA proves that he had nothing to do with it and he's still locked up. Nothing to do with it. I mean, it's amazing. But there's light at the end of the tunnel there too. And he's an amazing guy. He teaches Tai Chi and meditation. He's written seven books.

He's like, he's a brilliant guy on top of everything else. His name is Yens S-E-N-S-S-O-E-R-I-N-G. There's a movie about him called The Promise. And there's going to be a big 2020 piece in December about his case. So how you can get involved is, I mean, the first thing to do is go to a website. I mean, go to Innocenceproject.org, you know, or visit your local Innocence Project website. There's going to be a section that says how to get involved. You can write letters, you know, people – politicians actually pay attention when you write letters.

You know, letters are better than emails, but you can write emails. You could get on these mailing lists. You can create a page. You can write to inmates, too. I mean, that's a great – whenever I speak to these guys, it means so much to them that anybody gives a fuck enough to write a letter. You'd be surprised. And once you start, you can email so it's not that deep. You know what I mean?

Some people are scared of letters. Yes, that's true. It's a lost art. My mom used to write letters like crazy. But anyway, she'd write a letter for... When's the last time you wrote a letter, why are you? Writing to a prisoner. So...

But down they have the email system, so I'm winning. They do. Core links. Oh, they can... Yeah, Core links. You can... Yeah, or J-Pay. There's different systems in different places.

But... And then, you know, and then the other thing is you can organize an event. I mean, you can contact a local organization and, you know, organize, invite your friends over and do a, you know, maybe even get an exonerie or just, you know, get somebody to come in and speak or, you know, contact the local, you know, there's organizations all over the country doing this kind of work. And now that there's Google, there's really no excuse not to find out about it and get involved. Citicism work, too. That's I was going to say, under this umbrella of mass incarceration and all the issues that exist under. underneath it because in my mind, wrongful imprisonment is one of them.

But what do you think are like some of the other issues underneath that umbrella that people may need to be concerned about outside of that? Well, there's so many. I mean, for me, I've been deeply involved in bail reform. I think that's so important because, you know, locking people up when we don't know if they're guilty just because they can't pay, it should be an affront to everybody's humanity. And what people don't understand is that.

that jails in this country, most of them are worse than the worst maximum security prisons. And the reason, and people think jails... Wait, you say it again? So jails, and when you talk to people that I talk to on my show, most of them will say that they, like even one guy had on recently, Ryan Ferguson, he was saying that if he had to go back to maximum security prison or jail, he said, I'd take two years at maximum security prison over one year in jail. Tell them the difference real quick, because everybody doesn't know it's a difference between jail and prison.

So jail, you go to jail when you're awaiting trial. And for instance, in New York City, Rikers Island has become infamous, right? A jail? That's jail. It's a jail. It's not a prison, right? So in jail, there is no, there's no recreation in most jails. They're basically buildings where you can be in your cell 24 hours a day with seven, eight other people.

24 hours a day, the lights don't go off in a lot of jails, right? And it's just a pressure cooker of insanity. You have innocent people, guilty people, violent people. We don't know who's who. They're all just thrown in there together just because you can't post the fucking bail. By the way, do you know that if you get caught in New York City and you get taken to Rikers and they go, your bail's $500? And you're like, okay, but I got $500 with me.

And they're like, well, where is it? You guys took my, it's in the locker. They're like, well, wait, let me just get it out of the locker. They're like, no, you can't get it out of the locker. Not until you're out, not until you're freed. So wait, so I got the money, but I can't post. No, you can't post it. Right.

And by the way, one thing I'll say to anybody. if you get arrested, remember phone numbers. Think about that. You go in there, you get a phone call. You don't have your fucking phone. They took it. You got to remember to call your mom or whoever it is that's going to answer the damn phone.

Remember fucking phone numbers. Because if you don't, you're going to be stuck. And who remembers phone numbers? Think about it, right? I mean, nobody needs to remember phone numbers anymore. So that's an important... I'm going to say some real 1% shit right now. Go for it.

I don't know my number. You don't know your phone. I don't know your old number. You don't know your own phone number? You don't know your own phone number? I have four phones, but my home number? I don't know that shit. Oh, you don't know your phone number.

You are right. Like, if I didn't have my cell phone, I wouldn't know nobody's... One percent paragraph you just gave us. No, I think that's almost everybody. Like, no, I got like a few... Do you know your mom's number? I don't know my mom's number. I don't know.

Any number I got after like 2002, I don't know it. Yeah, yeah. Any, all my new contacts. But yeah, my mom, my wife, like my... My homie. like Nicolay. You know his number by her? I got Nick's number, yeah.

I would not know Tarek's numbers, your number. I want to memorize your number by the part. The other person I'm calling if I get locked up anyway. Who said you're going to be wrongfully convicted, though? No, you're not to be convicted. You're arrested. Do you think there's any chance in hell of us ever repealing the death penalty?

Yeah, I think there's a chance of us repealing the death penalty. And I think it's one of the reasons. I actually, I'm really, it's very gratifying to me because I'll get sometimes a direct message or something from somebody, a message on Facebook or whatever, but I don't really use Facebook that much. I'm on Instagram. Instagram is my shit, by the way.

At is Jason Flom. We got to plug that. I'm going to tell you something. I will make you laugh. I'll make you cry. I guarantee it. At is Jason Flom. Follow me.

So, but yeah, I'll get messages from people saying, you know, I used to believe it a death penalty, but now that I hear on your podcast about all these wrongful convictions, I realize it happens. You know, we've had 21 DNA exonerations from death row. you know and and I say to anybody who believes in the death penalty which I don't if you believe in the death penalty then you're saying that you're okay with sometimes executing innocent people right then you're okay with that I just want to make sure you're okay

with that right we executed an innocent guy in America oh two months ago in um in Arkansas Liddell Lee innocent as the day is long the DNA proved it and they executed him anyway and you know he was a client of ours can I ask What is your annual, I know it moves in the snail space, depending on what state you're dealing with and trying to get them examinerated. But what is your annual average of turning these cases around? Well, that's a hard question to answer

because there's innocence projects all over the country. Like I said, affiliated with different law schools. There's innocence projects in 43 states, I think. and there are there's more exonerations every year. I think I don't know the exact number last year, but I think it was, I would have been a couple hundred nationally. It's not enough.

Because if you think about it, the best estimates are that somewhere between 4 and 7% of the people in prison in America, not including jail, right, are innocent, right? So that sounds a lot like about 100,000 people that are innocent in prison right now while we're sitting here. Like I said, I'm not talking about jail. Jail, a huge percentage of people in jail are innocent because I haven't even been tried yet.

And so, you know, and that's the thing. Like I said, that whole shit, the death penalty has to go away. Like, fucking civilized countries don't execute people. And we're in the top five behind, like, China, Iran, North Korea, and, I don't know, Pakistan. It's not a good group to be in. You know what I'm saying? Of course, now we're the only country in the world. That's not in the Paris Agreement, right?

Syria actually signed on yesterday. yesterday. Syria. I was about to ask you what's the, what do you think of the top issues with us and having Trump in here in reference to the work that you do? All of them. That goes without saying. Yeah. All of them.

Yeah. How does the Innocence Project raise money? Like, I'm figuring that you guys would, in order to keep up with the thousands and thousands of cases that you have to deal with. you know, that there's less people on the Innocence Project side of the fence to help the amount of prisoners that, you know, are coming to you guys for these, for help. Yeah, I mean, we raise money from individuals and foundations. That's what we do. And, you know, every little bit helps. The more money that comes in, it is a not-for-profit. donations are tax deductible. And, you know, the more money that comes in, the more difference we can make,

not only in individual cases, but also in creating systemic changes and how everything from lineups are conducted to forensics, to, you know, to, there's so many changes that have to be made in the way interrogations are done, right? I mean, everything, videotaping, mandatory videotaping of interrogations. New York State just passed that finally, right? we didn't have that. New York City did. Just had it? Yeah, just passed it. Yeah. Shout out to Gaila Cuomo for that one. But yeah, I mean, that's, that's, it's so crazy, right?

I wonder I see them on the first 48 yet. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, look, we were also the second or last state to, uh, to stop treating juveniles, putting juveniles in adult prisons, you know, like, it was only us and I think South Carolina were the last two. Juveniles, state prisons. Yeah, it's juvenile's in adult prisons. And yeah, and back to the jail thing, the jail thing, they're so dangerous. I mean, Khalif Browder, anybody? You know what I mean?

Rest in peace. I mean, and then there are others. I mean, and my thing is to try to prevent that from happening. I started the thing in the Bronx called the Freedom Fund, which was the first bail fund in the country, which basically how that works is I raised the money. My dad actually put up half the money to start it when I went to him with the idea.

And I put the money in the hands of the lawyers at the Bronx Defenders, which is a great organization, and they post bail for their own clients. in misdemeanor cases. So it was an innovative idea. It seemed commonsensical to me. Not added to the bill later. No, no.

The money comes back when they show up for court. And by the way, 97% of our clients show up for every court date. We have a higher percentage of people showing up than people who actually have to pay money if they don't, right? So that whole argument's out the window that we need money bail to make sure people show up. You know what they do? They show up.

We send them a text message and say, don't forget. You know what I mean? And that's how they show up. And then usually their cases are dismissed. because if they have you in jail, you've got to plead guilty or you ain't going home. So, but if you're out, they just, they're going to prosecute you for jumping at turn cell.

You have to plead guilty or else you ain't going home. Think about that, right? You're going to be in jail for, you want to stay in Rikers for a week, two weeks, waiting for your court date? And by the way, sometimes you'll go to court and the prosecutor will say, well, you know, we're really not ready for this case, Your Honor. And the judge says, okay, come back in three weeks.

What else can he say? So if you're saying that, I'm not guilty then I'm doing that time in Rikers until And a lot of people will end up serving more time in Rikers than they would have served if they were guilty

Wait, okay, I got to ask a fourth time So you're saying Okay, let's say I did jump at turnstile And I get arrested And take into, well, you go downtown first Before you go to Rikers, I assume Depends where you're asking. Is there such a thing as downtown?

Is that just television in New York? You're going downtown there's the two. There's the tombs, but almost everybody goes to Rikers. Either way, it don't sound fun. The tunes are Rikers. No. Yeah, I learned also don't do anything on Thursday or Friday. Oh, no.

Yeah, because you'll be there until Monday. So you're saying that once they are in process, if I say that I'm innocent and you got the wrong person, I'm staying in Rikers. That's what happened to Khalif Browder. He was there for three years, awaiting trial. Three years. I mean, and then they're not.

They dropped the charges. You know that, right? They dropped the charges after three years. I don't even like to think about him because... No, it's too sad. It's too fucking sad. I mean, and he ain't the last one either. He ain't the last only.

There was this case with Pedro Hernandez. I was in court when some of the charges were dropped. He was in for a year awaiting trial. And he was a valedictorian in his class in Rikers Island and was offered a college scholarship. And they were trying to keep him in there, you know, so that he would miss his college. college.

But he just got out. But yeah, his case is horrible too. So for those that are wrongfully convicted, do you guys also work on making sure that the state makes up for any wrong convictions or wrongdoing as far as like monetary institutions or motions and those things? And what's the likelihood of, because I'm thinking about the Central Park Five. Right. They actually got their money.

They just got their money. What they say is not even enough. But even then, it's like, some of them so mentally fucked up from their, from their, so I'm asking about, like, you know, mental health and all those things. Like, is that even thought about now?

Or is that just like a, you know, a lost cost to even think that. Your mental health of exonerese? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's something that I've been very focused on. I, you know, I started a thing called.

called the Life After Exoneration Program at the Innocence Project, and also the thing that's become the Innocence Network Conference, which is it's a group every year we bring together a lot of exoneries. Last year we had 200 in the same room, who collectively had served over 3,600 years in prison. And it's all for healing and adapting and reintegrating into society because I feel the same way you do. Like, what do we do for these people when they, you know,

we've wronged them so much. And, you know, when they get out, they get a bus ticket, basically, in $40 in a lot of cases. And, you know, sometimes not even an apology. And then if they sue, you know, 30 states have compensation statutes and 20 don't. And, you know, is New York one of them? New York does. Okay. And then, you know, even the states that do have very, very different, you know, levels that you can get.

you know, some of them are so shockingly low that you would be embarrassed. But that's something we've been working on changing and getting, you know, we actually managed to get a very good bill passed in Texas of all places. So in Texas you get now, I can't remember. I think it's 50 or 80,000 a year for every year you were locked up, plus an annuity of an equal amount. So it's not a fortune, but at least it's something to start your life again because a lot of people come out after 10, 15, 20, 30 years in prison, and good luck getting a job, right?

What are you going to do? You don't know how to do. I didn't even use a phone. Yeah, I'm about saying. You never seen a phone. I mean, like, and so, you know, we are, you know, we are working on, on that. Amazingly, you know, the spirit of these people is so strong. I guess the ones that collapse never get out, you know, and I'll talk to the exoneries, and I'm like, I'm always amazed at how they don't show any signs of bitterness, you know. But it's true and it's incredible. You know, not every single one, but almost every single one has this, like, state of grace that they're in where they've just let go.

And they're, you know, they'll say things like, I don't want to live in the past. I can't change the past. I want to move forward. I want to live every day in my life as, you know, like I can't, you know, what am I going to do? Walk around being bitter and it's not going to help me. You know, that's what they say. Bitterness is a pill you take, hoping to make somebody else sick, right? But the fact is there are a lot of things that we're putting in place all over,

I mean, that are designed to help exoneries. You know what's crazy? Love is that if you are guilty of a crime and you serve your time and you parole out, you get a parole officer and you get certain services that are designed to help you get back into society. they don't always work. But you don't get it if you're innocent. If you're innocent, you get nothing. What?

Damn. That's messed up. And even if you sue, and even if you're able to sue, look how long it took the Central Park Five to get paid. Yeah. Right? I mean, Central Park Five, you were a kid growing up when that shit happened, right? Now they just got paid.

What was it like a year ago? Yeah. And it's worth mentioning that Trump took out ads at the time of their arrest, calling for all of them to be executed. He spent a bunch of money on all the newspapers in New York saying these guys should be executed. And, of course, he still says they're guilty because he knows these things. You know, Mama's from Kenya. And the first, you know, the first episode of my podcast, I actually interviewed Raymond Santana.

It's a really powerful episode. And I've done, you know, I do a lot of speaking. And I did a speech with him at the Nantucket Project, which you can actually look up online if you just Google my name in Nantucket Project, where I interviewed him on stage. And he's extraordinary. I mean, and that story is extraordinary. I have one more question And I know it's weird to ask But

Because a lot of these A lot of the People that you're releasing Some of them have served decades And you know Three, two, three, three, four decades, I assume Yeah I got out in New Orleans this week after 46 years

This week I was going to say Wilbur Jones How old is he now? I don't even know how old he is 45 or 6, 45 or... He went in in 71.

He got to be... My life. Yeah, that's 46 years. Yeah, right. You were born 71, right? Yeah. So I was going to say that I have a couple of friends in Philadelphia

that were caught up in the system. And coming out of jail was so frightening for them that it was almost like the feeling of you going to... going to jail. And to the point that two of those three basically told their families like,

look, I'm not going to go see my, my bail, my parole officer. Because I don't know anything in this world. Like, I got to go back. I mean, it's kind of some weird stock. No, institutionalized. Yeah. So, like, what are the cases of those that you get out

and they come out and they're just like, I have nothing to live for. Like, my whole world is inside of that prison. And, you know, willingly want to go back because I know that that happens a lot. I've heard that it happens. It happened in Shawshank Redemption, right? But I haven't seen any one of these guys that wants to go back.

The innocent don't want to do that, probably. But they're guilty. They probably just want to go back. That might be, that might be the distinct thing. You might be right. It's a psychological phenomenon. But, yeah, it's getting out is another punishment, you know, when they come out and we make it so difficult for them to get compensated. It takes years, even in the cases where it's successful.

And, you know, I've taken it as my, you know, one of my missions to try to help bridge that gap when I can because, you know, these people deserve, I mean, they got everything coming to them. get nothing, you know, like we owe them as a society. And everything. It's like there should be free education for these people. There should be housing. There should be, you know, it's nuts. Like, it's just, I don't know. Have you been able to garner any of your roster, any of your kind of celebrity friends to not just be a voice, but kind of get involved as well? None of the ones that I work directly with have gotten involved in any deep level. Do they know of your work, of your kind of Clark Kent Superman life? Do I look like someone who knows how to shut up?

Because he might have to be mixed up with some other guy. But no, I, yeah, I mean, I'm proselytizing this stuff all the time. Like I said, I promote it on my Instagram. And anybody who follows me, knows that. And then I, you know, and I also talk. about it to anybody that will listen. And, you know, and it is amazing. I mean, the, you know, social media has been really helpful for me in getting that word out. But it hasn't yet, I mean, look, a lot of people, some people are just not, you know, people, I think in their 30s is usually

when people start to become interested in really making a difference. Something else. I mean, you know, you know, look, Scooter Braun, interesting, right? Here's a guy who's on top of the world, and he's now, look at what he's doing, right, with these concerts, Manchester thing and the Hurricane Relief. I mean, he's become that guy in his mid-30s where he's like, the new Bob Geldof. It hits you at some point that you have a higher purpose, and I don't mean that in a religious way.

It's just like you have, you know, you have a calling. I mean, we're here to be our brother's keepers, and that's the way it is, you know? And it doesn't make any sense to fight that feeling. Like, just go with it. I mean, look, some people have working three jobs just to put food on the table, they don't have time. You know, it's that old saying,

if you're up to your ass and alligators, it's hard to remember to dream the swamp. But, you know, if you got yours, then get off your ass and go find your shit. Like, it's, it makes me so fucking happy to be able to make this difference. It's nuts. I mean, like, I feel, I feel lucky, you know,

to be in a position to be able to do this and to have found something that really touches me and makes me want to do more every day. Well, man, we thank you for fighting a good fight, and hopefully that'll inspire our listeners to, you know, get involved as well. We are lucky to have you. Thank you for having you in the space. Thanks for that.

Yeah, thank you. Innocentproject.org, everybody. Yes, it's Jason Flom and Instagram. I just followed him. Follow back, Jason. It's Jason. I'm a follow backer. Let me tell you.

No, now I'm watching a thousand people are going to be, wait, you didn't follow me back. What is this guy, full of shit? We have to add me back. So let's talk Royals with Lord. Oh, right now. Matchbox 20. Yeah.

All my Matchbox 20 questions. Are you serious? I'm dead serious. Second coming to cold play? Okay. No, they weren't the second coming to cold. No, to you. I'm just saying.

No. Because Matchbox 20 was like 20 years before, well, 10 years before. Listen, man, do you love them as much? Just let him have this. Give me your three matchbox 20 questions. Um, then we're just. Now, let me see. Okay.

Matchbox 20. Okay. Rob Thomas. Man, I don't know where I start? Okay. Just yourself was. Like yourself or someone like you, that was the album with 3 a.m. on it, right? Yeah.

Okay. It's so much because. This is like me trying to freestyle. Man, I don't know where to start. Okay, Rob Thomas. So it was that one. He had 3 a.m. was on that record. And then what was the big, big record?

Push. Push. How do you know that? That record was fucking everywhere. It was everywhere. How do you not know it? Yeah, that record was everywhere. Okay.

95? So then the Santana thing happened. How did that affect the group at all? Like once he had that huge record, the smooth came out? That messed up group dynamics with Rob and the rest of the guys? That's a good question. I never really thought of it that way.

And I don't know. I think it's hard, you know, it's hard to figure out the cause and the effect. But, you know, it seems like something like that will affect the dynamic one way or another, right? It was always kind of just robbing the other guys, though, wasn't it? Yeah, I didn't know Tito and Randy. Yeah, I mean, yeah, Rob's that guy. I mean. And then Sugar Ray.

Whose idea was it to put Super. cat on the song. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was the producer David Kahn, who had that idea. David Kahn produced him? Yeah.

He produced. David Kahn. Damn. That's my man. He produced Fishmoon. Yeah, yeah. It's sort of strange. You wouldn't think, right?

But yeah, he produced Fly. I did not know that. Wow. That was fun. That was a joint. Okay. That's all right. Cool.

You sure you don't have any cold play questions? Ah, man. Because, okay, cold plate, that was. Actually, I only work with them for a minute, so I don't know. Okay. I don't know. I'm, like, I literally. We'll bring Craig on the show.

I didn't even work with them. I met them. They just happened to be signed to the label I was running. But, you know, I was only there for whatever a couple years. And, yeah, they were doing, they were the stratosphere already. I get zero credit for that. Okay. When I was said and done for your music career, what's the one achievement where you're just like, me?

I did that. Like, to yourself, you know. your humble brag moment to yourself that you're going to broadcast on Pandora. In the music business? Yeah. In the music business. I mean, it's funny because the one thing we didn't even talk about

is one of my proudest accomplishments which is Trans-Liberian Orchestra. You know? Oh. Speaking of it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Trans-Iberian Orchestra

was a crazy-ass story. You know, I'd signed this metal group called Savitized, not because I wanted to do but because a guy I was hanging out with back in those days wouldn't leave me alone. And so, you know, I don't even really like metal music, but I like hard rock. But anyway, they'd fallen out of favor and, you know, were really, I actually dropped them in 96 because they weren't doing anything. And then one day

their lawyer, Nick Ferrara calls me on the phone and says, did you know that WPLJ is going to add sabotage tomorrow? And I said, do you know you must be the single dumbest lawyer in America? We can't even get that shit played on metal stations anymore. College stations won't even play. What are you talking about it? PLJ was the biggest station of the country back then. You remember. And so the next day,

Scott Shannon, this was December 11th of 96, Scott Shannon plays the last song on the sabotage album. And not only does he play it, he reads the liner notes. And he goes into a whole thing about how this is the most powerful piece of music

and every store in New York blows out, right? Like, people are calling, the stores are calling us, going, where's this record? We need more of these records. We don't even know. We don't have any. We dropped the band.

And then Scott starts calling other radio stations saying this is the biggest thing I've ever seen at it, right? And all these other stations are calling us saying, so it turns out they had put a Christmas song on a metal album, right? Who does that?

The last song was Carol of the Bells done with metal guitars and an orchestra. How many members were they? There was four members in Savantyedize, but the fifth guy was really the producer, which is a guy named Paul O'Neill, who sadly died this year.

And so he had done, made this record, dun-da-na-da-na-da-na-da. Then with the metal guitars, and then-da-na-da-da-da. Oh, no, no, no. It was the strings, right? Dun-da-da-da-dun.

And then the guitar, and then-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. And for whatever reason, it was pure magic, right? So we start shipping and pressing these records and setting them out as fast as we can, making copies for the radio stations,

because we still own the master, even though we had dropped the band. And then in January, I called Paul O'Neill, and I go, Paul, people love this record, but they hate sabotage. So I said, here's what I want you to do. Take that song. Don't mix it. Don't fix it. Don't edit it. Don't

do a fucking thing to it because it's perfect. And make a whole album of songs just like that. Give it a nice Christmasy name and I'll sell millions for you. So he calls me up a couple weeks later. He goes, what do you think about Trans-Siberian Orchestra? I go, what the fuck do I know? I'm Jewish. I don't know anything about Christmas. If you make a Hanuk album, call me. So we called it Trans-Siberian Orchestra. And it became the big. biggest Christmas artist in the history of the world. That publishing must be crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unfortunately, that's not me. But whatever. So, yeah, so that was really fun because it was so difficult to break that act. That one in Kid Rock, really, were the hardest. And in spite of the current things that are going on, it was so much fun breaking Kid Rock, looking back. It was just nobody was on that guy. I mean, it was like everybody was against him.

He told me the story. You said you want to sign two. He's the one I broke on the golf course. You didn't get the sign two. Were you at Virgin? with the perfect circle, his side group? No, I didn't, I don't think they made any records while I was there. So they may have been signed there, but I never got to deal with that.

I did try to sign him as a solo artist as well, and that didn't work out either. So, yeah, that was perfect circle, right. I tried to sign perfect circle. So he left me at the altar twice, you know. But I'm still a fan. He's brilliant, you know. I love his voice, man. He's dope.

So, yeah, I think those were the most fun. I mean, I'm super proud of Tori Amos, because I think she's had a real impact on music and culture. There's a lot we didn't mention. We didn't get to talk about Lord or Jesse Jay or... We didn't talk about... I didn't even ask for DeAngelo Nightmare story. Oh.

We already have plenty of those. I think we got our questions out. We thank you very much for coming on the show. Oh, my God, yes. Well, we finished better than we started, considering I garbled my rap. You made up for it with the poem, no. Yeah, yeah.

Well, on behalf of Boss Bill, unpaid bill sugar steve Fontecolo and it's like Lee What is it? Where? Who it is? It's Lear Cohen. No, it's like this is Questlove signing off. Thank you very much, Jason, for joining us. And Slitsky too.

Yay. Nice. Nice. Nice. Great thing, by the way. Make sure he signs a release form too. We will see you next week on the next go round of Quest Love Supreme.

Only on Pandora. Quislove Supreme is a production of I-HeartRadio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement

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