The Questlove Show - QLS Classic: LA Reid Part 2

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

In Part 2 of this QLS Classic of LA Reid's comprehensive interview with Questlove Supreme, he recalls working with The Whispers, Whitney Houston, and Michael Jackson.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, the Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I bowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players

flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcasts on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeartRadio. What's up? This is Shuggestee from Questlef Supreme. Anybody who knows this podcast is well aware that our interviews can last for hours. So often, we split them into two parts. It also gives listeners a suspenseful reason to come back next week or check their podcast feed for more episodes. Back in 2022, we sat down with L.A. Reed for what became a rare three-part interview.

In part two of L.A. Reed's comprehensive interview with Questlove Supreme, he recalls working with The Whispers, Whitney Houston, and Michael Jackson. Please rate, like, and subscribe to this on your podcast feeds. Check back for new episodes and follow our new YouTube page at QL. This is a question that I tried asking Jimmy Jam, and I still wasn't satisfied with the answer. Now, I owned Eyes of a Stranger. I mean, I've owned all your records. But when Eyes of a Stranger came out and I always have this question, I will ask you, I will ask the SOS band. I will ask Boys Demint.

How bold do you have to be in order to start with a ballet? Your first three songs on the album with ballads, especially in this mind state where you're like, we got to grab them by the collar. Right. In your mind, you were like, two occasions is so damn Teflin. We better open with this joint.

Like, are you guys not thinking? I got to look at the track list and to see if you're right. And it's the first record. It's the first record on the track list. It opens it. Oh, let me see some. Eyes. With my eye, like literally.

And they back to back. That's interesting, Mayor. Wow. And the thing is the way that I see records and building records and like the drama and the like the up and like two occasions to me was always either the fourth song on side A. Wow. Or the second song on side two. Y'all, to me it's almost like opening thriller with human nature. Right. I can't believe.

This doesn't make sense to me. What? I think in terms of albums, and this also explains why you have way more hits than I do. Right, right. No. I think that's a re-sequence, man. Okay.

No. You have the actual vinyl or cassette or something? Not there. I don't expect you to have it there, but I'm saying... It's the 1987. I can't believe that. I thought can you dance was the first song on the album. Hang on a second.

I'm now checking all the streaming... Disgars, yeah. Well, on Apple music, it is, yeah, y'all are right. It's one and two. And can you dance? It's five. Yeah. That's not sounding right.

Opens the record. And this. Well, I mean, obviously it worked because I think when anyone thinks of the deal, it's two occasions. And at that it's. Right. All right. So this is weird.

But that wasn't even our first single. Hold up. What was the first? Two occasions was there? Well, damn sure it wasn't shoot him up. No, no. Hold, I'm going to tell you, okay, where's that album? Where's that album?

Eyes of a stranger. Okay, why he's looking for it? This reminds me. Oh, shit, man, you're right again. Hold on. Now, I'm on discogs looking at it. It's straight up. Yeah.

Don't be sorry. But listen, and this really brings about full circle because when I don't know if you remember this conversation like you, the day that things fall apart came out. February 23rd, 1999, the next day I spoke to you, because you were telling me about like, you know, you were on the radio and all that stuff. And you gave me a message from your mom.

And your mom said, why would they bury the Erica Badu song at the end of Side 2? Yeah. Wow. Yes. Why do we have to sit through that entire album to get to it? Which was kind of like my plan. It's like, okay.

Because that's the single. Y'all heard that already. Y'all heard that one. You're making them listening to it. Okay. Y'all would have never gotten through the rest of the record to see who we were before we got you. But you did the opposite of what L.A. did. Wow.

I know, but that's. That's why he's L.A. No, stop. No. Maybe I'm trying to open when you got me. Right, right. I swear I don't remember. I really don't remember.

But the only logic that I can come up. with is put the hits up front. That's the only thing I can think of is put the hits up front, right? But we put out, yeah, we put out can you dance and we thought we kind of gotten it right. Okay, we got it right now. Now we got it. This is better than, this is better than material things. Sonically it's better. Got a right engineer. Tom's not overshadowing everything, you know. And it didn't work at all. We got nowhere. And then Dick Griffey came. And then, This is what Dick stepped in. Right.

He said, he says, comes to the studio. Play me all the records. Play me, he's seen. He's mean about it, too. Like, that's like that. Play me all the records. Like, I'm sick of you. You know, because, by the way, I forgot to tell you.

I picked another stiff, not a stiff, but Babyface's first solo album was called Lovers. Yeah. And, um, I love you, babe. And I, no, I picked you make me feel brand new to cover as the single. And wait, that came out before I love you, babe. Yeah, yeah. And I don't even remember that. And it was cute.

That was me thinking that I didn't know. And Dick Griffey was like, you just think you know everything, don't you? I mean, that's how it taught to me. Like, let me tell you this. This is my record company. And this is my studio. And we're doing that no more. So he picked the hits.

Yeah, he had the year. I picked all the wrong songs. I picked, you made me feel brand new for Babyface, and I picked, Can We Talk for the deal? Both wrong. Yeah. That comes back and picks two occasions. And shoot in my movies.

Shooting my movies, yeah. He gave me that song. Wow. He gave me the song. It's the only time my band ever did a song that we didn't write or co-write. He gave me that song and said, this might be good for you. So Kenney and I went and we produced it, but did you like it song. I did like it.

I liked it, liked it, but my band hated it. Wait, which one are we talking about? Movies. Did y'all like the cover? Shoot-em-up movies. Oh, okay. Wait, who did the cover? Who did the cover?

Who did the cover? Bobbi Dick from on No Limit records. He covered shoot-em-up movies in like 90-time. No bullshit. Yeah, when we're done, listen to the movie. You brought this a shoot-up movie. By the way, we did it because Dick wouldn't make, he wouldn't let us have music videos. He said we weren't pretty enough.

So we think of music videos. Really? So I figured if I do to a cage, I mean, I'm not to a case. We do shoot them up movies, which is the song he gave us. Maybe we might get a music video. That's right.

Y'all have not done music videos. We didn't have no music videos. Oh. Yeah. But everybody else on the lips, Shalimar had the music videos and, and every. The weirdest music videos of all time.

Right. But we didn't care of any. They're so, their videos were so off-kilter, man. But y'all was so pretty. That's so odd. All right. So here's the deal.

I'm going to ask you a question as a CEO about your artist self. And hopefully, because I think you're one of the first major CEOs we had on the show. And I need it, explain to me like I'm a 12 year old. Okay. Now, an out-of-the-box hit, like two occasions. now as a person who has not had a lifespan and I'm talking about myself

as a singles artist you know I mean I've had many top 10 albums you know whatever I make my living on the road but as a singles artist I'm not I'm led to believe that hits are manufactured not in that sort of organic way

that were led to believe it is where it's like you're just suddenly singing and every time it's my eyes you know what I like that two occasions song by the deal and then you called the radio station and you request it

and then it becomes a hit. I'm led to believe especially now that deals are already made and I'm not asking about the process of how deals get made but is two occasions a hit because it just

organically spread that way or was the solar muscle again I'm not going to give up until I'll get it Dick Griffey's story behind it

to make it a hit okay so what I think or is it a meet you halfway thing give us a song we can work with and then we'll ram it

I am shamelessly commercial let me just put that out there right you and I are opposites in that regard. Like I am, I am like so singles oriented, like, like, especially like the first two songs I picked were stiffs. So I became like, I'm going to get the singles thing down, right? So I, I, before, let me interrupt you real quick. And I want to use this opportunity to actually dispel a myth. Okay. I am not anti-singles. Oh. I actually, no. No, I don't think you're anti-s singles. I'm not anti-s singles and I.

This is good. I will, I will freely admit, I mean, this might be Captain obvious to, you know, Fonte, whatever, is I think for half the people that just pose like, oh, man, I ain't with that bubblegum pop shit, it's, I believe that pop songs are the hardest things to execute. Right. That's right. You give me a free jazz song. I'll knock that shit. It'll be on the next Robert Glasper record, you know, instantly. But I don't know.

You know, and I think since I've put in 20,000 hours of DJing, hard DJing between the last Roots album. Yes. Now there's like nine years of that. I'm hyperware of what songs work and don't work that I didn't have in my first. Now, I guess my job is to not make it so, you know, now that I know the secrets or the codes or whatever to figure out how to nuance my knowledge. And not just make it like, okay, now that I know we need hit singles, like, I know what our fan base expects of us. However, I just want to say that I'm not anti-pop because I think it's, you know,

kid music. I just never knew how to do it. Right, right. I completely get that. Listen, I have, this may be a fair or unfair comparison, but first version of cooling the game, And then the pop version of cool and the game. They made, they made too hot and all those songs that they were great, but I hated that band.

Like, I loved the original Cooling Gang when they played. But how do you feel now about looking back on it? Looking back on it, that was me, that was me before record companies, before anything. It was just a preference. I'm like, y'all soft. That's soft. Like, that's like, what is, come on, where's Hollywood swinging and those crazy intros in the horns? And those are just songs.

I didn't like it at all, right? Now I understand the difference. I still prefer the first version of cooling the gang. So what I'm saying is you and your band can't really afford to do it, man. If y'all really did it, like what happens is that you disappoint a lifetime of fans. And no matter how you feel about it, at that point, maybe for the first time, you're going to be really criticized for trying to get a hit. So it's that is, it's, it won't be the first time.

Because, but you're so successful at what you do that that would be a mistake. My opinion is that that would be a mistake, right? Unless it were completely organic, completely, like nothing changes except this song just happened to catch, right? Yeah, because. If you did anything to, to. If you look like you're trying. You can't do that. Like, you're, you're a savior.

You could, you could. You can't do that. I'm not doing that. However, I am so aware that, well, we've had grooves, but we never had a melody line. There's never a part of the song that you can whistle and it sticks with you. That's not true. And also, isn't there a gray in there?

Isn't there the fact that maybe y'all were just missing an L.A. ear when it comes to singles? Because for me, as the radio girl listened to all these records that y'all put out, at times I just felt like y'all didn't hear the single. Y'all put out the wrong song. Like, what about the gray in there? As of this conversation, two days ago, I'm talking right now from New Orleans. We just did the Essence Festival.

And for the first time, we've played with Little Kim. And, of course, the subject of Lighters Up comes up. Now, for those that don't know, Little Kim's Lighters Up song was a root song. that I don't know Well, what happened? One day on West Love Supreme, he'll answer the question. Scott.

All I can say was when Tarika and I went to Florida, we made lighters up. We took a three-hour dinner break. By the way, having dinner with O.J. Simpson and Buster Rimes. Long story. Yeah. Whoa. Long story. come back to the studio, finish the music of what you know is lighters up,

came back, you know, pretty confident, like, hey, we're going to have a good first single for our tipping point record. And next thing I know, like a month later, I hear that song with Little Kim on it, and I was just like, what the fuck? Oh, wow. But good choice, Scott. Well, I mean, Scott obviously gave it to Kim. Yeah.

But, oh, Scott Storch. Oh. Yeah. Scott George was, you know, original roots. Scott was over the roots. That's right. Yeah. So even then, my whole point was that, and you know, we joked about it.

Like, you know, this is our song first or whatever. Did she know? But she was surprised. She's like, I heard you play drums on it, but no, I, if you remember and do the right thing, when Samuel Jackson does the senior love daddy, the roll call thing. Yes. If you listen to that music in the background, I was, do the right thing was on in the break room.

And I remember that. I was like, hey, let me see if I can make a song without a snare. And just with high hats and symbols. That's what I was. Wow. That's what I was making. And Scott put piano on top of it. And it was like, all right, this could work.

But my whole point is that even if we kept that song, I'm not even certain. It would have really went off like that. He would have done to that song what she did to it. Right. So it's almost like, it went with this rightful owner. Again, we don't

have a filter in us that knows how to not flex our intellect. Like, Tariq has to be the smartest guy in the room instead of the most relatable guy in the room, lyrically. And did Rich ever let anybody else help pick a single? Oh, rich is brilliant too. Yeah, definitely.

Scott made it up to us by doing don't say nothing, but then that's when our fan base sort of clapped back like I thought don't see nothing was quaverler because I like the fact that Tarek was saying something nonsensical. Here's my take on it. There's two

kinds of stars. There's the artist and there's the song. Right. Songs can be stars. Right. And artists can be stars. And when the two collide, you get Whitney Houston. I don't know. Right. You get, you know,

whoever you might like, Michael Jackson. You know, but sometimes the artist is the star, but not necessarily the song. And sometimes the song is a star, but not necessarily the artist. Big facts. Right. And that's how I look at it. So I separate those two, right?

Return to the Mac. Right. Right. Exactly. That song is a star. Yeah, that song is a jam. Right. And there's many of those.

But then there's also, there's also a very, very talented artist, Tori Amos. You all know if you listen. He's not a hit maker, but she's incredible. Yeah. Right? And, you know, and there are others, you know. But so I separate the two. That's how I look at it.

So do you think that the industry, as it is now, makes space for those kinds of artists? Do you think there's a space for those artists to exist, like, on major labels where it's like, okay, you may not have the hit record or the TikTok zone is going off, but you just are an amazing artist. and I think there's an audience for that. You're not going to like my answer. No, I'll give it to me real, bro. And it's going to get me in trouble. No, talk about it. I got a tag on top of Fonte's question.

Okay, go ahead. My answer to that is not if you're black. No, you better tell your truth. Let's talk about it. Come on. Come on, come on with it. If you black, you better have a hit. Listen.

Come with it. Oh, that's, that's true. If you got a hot garage band that don't make. heads, no problem. We just put you on the road, just stay on the road until you get a hit. Or you better be the band that's on a label that believes in that, which is definitely. And yeah, that's so good. Literally, I don't even know if I told people this. The only reason why the roots lasted that long is because it was in our contract. If you have album number one, we have to make three albums. If you have album number four,

we have to make three albums. If you have album number seven, you have to make, so we couldn't get dropped. That was the only way that we'd never got, we would have gotten dropped otherwise. Wait, I have to ask this because I heard, all right, so post, and I'm so jumping ahead in the future, but since you brought it up, I believe the story that was told to me was back when,

I think this was 80, not 80, this was either 1999 or, 2000, I believe. You guys signed an artist named Stephanie Zermanada to the label. Oh, okay.

That would have been a little later than that, probably 06. Okay. All right. My whole point is that the Fiona Apple incarnation of Lady Gaga.

was, to my knowledge, on a Def Jam artist, or she was signed to the label and... Yep, I signed her, right? What did you see in that artist that later morphed into what we know now? The day she came in, she plays rock and roll piano, first of all, like she's incredible at it. And she came in and she had on the white go-go boots

and she was like just, seducing the piano. I mean, you know, she gets in it. She's inside the keys, right? She's doing Tori Amos. Thank you. Right. I was going to say that, but I did.

If you know, Tori Amos. That's what I saw. In her prime show, yeah. That's what I saw. And I thought she was incredible. And I remember saying to her that, and she reminded me of this, because my memory is nothing good.

She told me that in that room, I told her that she would likely change music. That's how passionate I was. So we signed her and then they started to bring me demos. And when I heard the demos, like, I didn't hear that same thing that I saw. And I didn't like it. And I had Rihanna and Justin Bieber and Kanye and the dream and everybody. And I was filling myself way too damn much, right?

Note to self. Like, don't want to feeling yourself. And they were, and I was like, I don't want to put this out. Like, this is not it. This is not the girl I signed. This is not, this isn't moving me. And I let her go before we ever released the record. And then she found Acon, Red One, and ultimately Jimmy Ivy.

And she put out Just Dance. And it started blowing up in Canada. I was watching it because I didn't want to be embarrassed. I was like, that's just Canada. Then I started seeing it blow up with it. Miami. That's just Miami. That's just the clubs. Then it stopped blowing up in the bay.

Then it charted. And then it became Gaga. And I was like, I was like, you stupid. Wow. You feel like. Wow. Yo, so, okay, so questions. So in that situation in your role as an executive,

how much of it is putting out or putting out things that you like versus a record may come to you. And it's like, okay, I personally don't like this, but I know that it will work with this audience. Like how much of it is like your personal taste versus the marketplace? It's a little bit of both. First of all, I will stand. Even in that case, I clearly blew it.

But for the most part, I'll stand by other people that work at the label. If they say they're passionate about something, I'll give it a shot. It doesn't have to just be my thing, right? Gotcha. But if it's something that I sign, that I personally endorse, then I want to feel good about it. And in those cases, I'm kind of listening to me, right? But I just blew it, man.

I just completely blew it. I have to appreciate, but here's the thing I appreciate it about this story. We've had three artists on the show that told us the story of where it wasn't working out with their label staff. Right. and instead of just being like, you know what, you're right. Let's let's call it the other day and let you go. I learned that the label will sometimes just freeze an artist out, just to avoid the embarrassment in case that happens.

Yes, for sure. People hold on. They don't want to be wrong or they don't want to make a decision. but I don't respect that. Like I'd rather like, listen, I blew it. And I tell you I blew it. And while it, while it pains me and it's embarrassing, I'd rather live in that truth than to have shelved her

and just made her keep going back and going back and going back when I knew I didn't like it. I didn't like it. It wasn't for me, right? So if it's not for me, perhaps she could have a life somewhere else, and I'm actually okay with that, as embarrassing as it is. How different was the music that, she presented to you, how different was it than what she presented to the world?

It was very different. Because if you know her, you know, she's diverse and she could do many things. And the kind of music she made on the first album and a little bit on the second album, she's never revisited that. So she's clearly able to do a lot of different kinds of music. And it wasn't, that was like dance, pop, or I don't know, that's what I called it, you know. So it wasn't an idiom yet. Or, no, it wasn't that flavor at all. It was kind of piano-based, a little bit jamming. A little bit, yeah.

But it just, they didn't feel like hits. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement. to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that. Trust your girlfriends.

I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of The Girlfriends... Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no.

I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Vodam. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network.

It's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place they come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah.

He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar. of, you know, the cat, just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that.

There's a lot of luck. Listen to thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospect. from hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes

franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12

and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars and now I guess also is the co-host of The Away End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86.

I was nine years old. I watched every game, and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan.

I love this game. I love its history, its hope, its heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer,

is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Alarcon and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we got to get back in the time machine

because I'm not scared. All right, come on. We all love the place, right? I'm having a great time. Thank you. Well, I want to know what touring with the deal was like across the states as opposed to just you guys being in one environment as a club band. Like your first touring.

Oh, my God. The first show we had as the deal with Body Talk as a hit, we opened for the DeBarge and Luther Vandros. Oh, that's right. Sounds familiar. Life-changing moment, right? First show is at, in Indianapolis, at Market Square Arena. So now we have a band that's gone from playing club

that could barely hold 200 people to Market Square Arena. And we hit that stage. And we would open the act. So we got a line check, but not a sound check. And I like to use that as an excuse why we were so bad. But we were horrible. I mean, we were so horrible. got off stage, like we didn't even, you know, we're supposed to be excited. That's our first show is in a big arena and a major tour. And we should have been like really happy and excited and slapping each other five and having a celebratory moment. But we were really embarrassed by it. We didn't have, we were not built for that big stage. We didn't know what we were getting into. And and we overdid our, we overdid our, our gimmick.

too much makeup too much everything for all the cities or for certain cities no this was just this one show the very one show it's a first show the first show so the show is over and i'm in the hotel room my road manager his name is leon burnett wonderful man he comes this is dick riffie wants to talk to you i'm like uh-oh said and i don't remember the conversation that well but i remember being a little it frightened and not threatened, but warned. If we come out like that again, we're off the show. And I remember him saying something about Sylvester. Right?

Like, we don't want no more Sylvester's. We don't want to know something like that. Like, it was something like that. And anyway, we cleaned up our act. And the next night, we were a lot better, right? But the first night, man, we blew it so badly. It was just really bad. And then we got a little used to it.

Luther embraced us. El DeBarge embraced us. And we all kind of became friends. And then they started, you know, we got treated a little bit better. And we got better. And we had some nights when we actually really caught a good rhythm. But I've heard stories of Luther's restrictions. Again, I'm also a good friend with a friend of the show is, is Shep Gordon,

who would say how anal retentive Luther was with the light. you can use or the colors you can wear. Yes. We never heard about colors. Definitely the lights and how many channels on the mixing console and things like that. But Luther and I were buddies, you know, and Kenny because like he has so much respect for Kenny as a songwriter, because we used to give Luther demos when we were on the road. So we just kind of built a relationship.

And we never felt like there was a lot of restrictions there. As a matter of fact, he wouldn't even make us leave him backstage. He would let us stay, you know, because there used to be this, when the superstar comes out of the dressing room, all right, everybody going to a dresser, everybody over here, you go over that, now go over here. That's still happening right now. It's a mess. It's definitely still happens. That's still happens right now. One of those people's going to jail for 30 years, but he used to do that all the time.

Right? It was like insane. But Luther didn't do that to us. He let us hang, right? And, oh, did you know Yogi Horton? The drummer, yes. I own a snare drum. You do?

I got lucky someone had. I'm sorry, sidebar. How good was he? Like, I want to know what you thought. I love your guest. Actually, one of the very first instructional, one of the first instructional drum things I used to, my teacher used to make me watch.

Yogi did one before he passed away. Wait, can I ask, did he pass away while on tour? Yes, but not that too. Were you guys on the tour or? We weren't on the tour that he passed away on. It was two years later. Okay. I always wanted to know how did Luther recover, like finding another drummer and that sort of thing.

I wasn't around. But we were on the tour when Marvin passed away. We were on tour with Luther when Marvin passed. I remember us having a prayer moment backstage, completely quiet. Everybody on the tour holding hands. And Luther, yeah, it was really moving. It was really something. Luther was really torn by it, right?

All of us were. I didn't know Marvin personally, but obviously was touched by his music. But Luther must have been very close to him because he assembled everybody, every truck driver, everybody backstage, right? Oh, really?

It was really special, really special. The reason why I'm asking you about tour life is because I know eventually you're going to morph into just production, which of course means that you're going to have to leave the band. In your mind, is it like, okay there has to be something else other than this

like what where's the point where suddenly the wheels are turning and you're like okay we have to be a team we have to write hits like how does that happen? For me it was we enjoyed being on the road I enjoyed it on the very first tour that we did and the second album as we talked about material

things didn't work so we didn't have as much work but we still did some some gigs here and there. We worked. And then the third album took a while. So between our second album and the third album, we started to develop as songwriters and producers a little bit better. And because the second album wasn't a success, we had a little more time on our hands. So when we went back to do the tour with two occasions, I was over it. Like seriously, was over it, like before the tour started. And because I couldn't play anymore, man.

I don't know what happened, but maybe I started thinking about it or I don't know, but something got into me and I just couldn't play anymore. And my hands were hurting. Like, I felt like I had arthritis in my hands and I just, I lost it. I mean, at 16, I thought I was really good. You know, at 21, I thought I was really good. And by my mid-20s, man, it just was just. start to go away. And I literally never got it back. So like I still have this.

And that didn't upset you? Yes, it really upset me except one thing. I took that drum machine and I'm a master that thing. I was like, I don't care who you are. Jimmy Jam, Teddy Riley. I'm challenging anybody. I could do this better than anybody, right? And so I switched. What was your drum of choice? I had every drum machine they made, man. I had the lead drum, the DMAs, the A, the way, everything. Got you. For me, I have to say you do, you do have a trademark. It's, I don't know how you did it or why you did it, but I noticed it.

Every fourth, maybe every eighth clap, you will put extra emphasis on the refurb. Right. Right. Some clas would be normal. I got that from Jimmy Jam. I straight stole that from Jimmy Jam, because he's, did it on control. Control.

Boom, to do, boom, boom, do to do do, right. And I loved it

so much. So it was really Jimmy's signature. I borrowed it. We're friends. But it wouldn't be every clap. It would be very strategic. It was strategically placed.

And for me, when I think of the sound of classic, like when I think of Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, it's like the sound of the classic 808. Do, do, right the sound that uh old boy uh who produced loosens uh nik martnelli oh nick marnelli that's right that's right

yeah five star like anything that sounds like jamming lewis do do do do like that's their trademark but for you it was always right to this day like no one has mastered that level of of gated reverb better oh man than you did but was that okay you say you took it from i mean but still you know you We learn from each other, and then you know, you embellish it and do things with it. But I would spend hours, hours and hours and hours and hours playing with those drum machines and playing with rhythms and taking Kenny's keyboards and muting them and putting them through filters and playing. I just played with the sound, you know, a lot.

And that became my new passion. So that, and a lot of that was because, by the way, I never actually played live on a recording session. Really? Really? I did when I was young. Like when I was young, I did some records. But like after we had the deal and when we came and started making records, like I never actually played a live kit on a drum on a record. Like never, never on a hit record.

Right. Hey, you know what's called for. Right? I was and then I heard you. And then I was like, oh, get out of it, man. I remember that Eric about due record. I was like, yo, my son turned me all. He was like, I was like, who?

Who is that? And then I read about your Rolling Stone magazine and with your dad and all. Yeah, I'm done for me. Anyway, so can you talk to us about the conversation that leads to you and Kenny, like really making this official? Who was the first outside non-deal artist that the L.A. and baby face that we know of? Let's see. The very first one was when we officially did it together,

that would have been the whispers. Rock steady. Yeah, rock steady. That's when we did it together. And they hired Kenny. They called Kenny. They didn't call both of us. And Kenny said,

I have to have L.A. with me. So he pulled me along. Okay. Wow. And it was really special. It was really good looking out. And we had a comfort level working. But Kenny was obviously really famous

at Solar. as a songwriter more so than like the two of us, you know, and because of, yeah, that's kind of what happened. And we went in, we made rock steady and then it became official, you know. Did you know that was a pop hit or? Immediately. Did it become a private?

No, I knew it immediately, I swear to you, I did. Like when, what, when we were writing it, I knew when we were in an apartment on, on, we lived on Highland Avenue, in Hollywood. And when we were writing it, I had a really good feeling about it. But then when we got in the studio and we laid it down and we put the whispers on the background vocal, before they sang Lee, I remember I'll never ever forget that moment. I was like, oh my God, this is a smash.

I knew it. And people in the studio knew it. Like in other rooms, people would come around while we were working on it and hang out in the doorway and watch. It was just something special going on in that room. room and we knew it, right? And then when, you know, Scotty and Walter from the Whispers put their vocal on it, they just, that was icing on the cake. But I swear to you, I already felt it was a hit. And that goes back to your other question. Like, are hits manufactured or is it organic? I think that it's a little bit of both. Anytime I see the Whisper sing, both Scotty twins sing

in tandem. Right. Who's doing the singing? Because that sounds like one verse. Oh, yeah. It's Scotty. Scotty's the one. Okay.

Walter, Walter is a lighter version. Same, same, a very similar tone. Very similar. But Scottie has more power. Oh. That's your answer. So when it's guagawagawawawawaw, gwee time,

that's Scotty that we know. That's Scotty, man. And Justin's with time and all those songs. That's Scottie. That's right. Yeah. Finally.

In the mood. Scottie. In the mood. That's Scotty. Okay. Wow. Wow. That's dope, man.

Sorry for telling the truth, y'all. No, we appreciate it. Nah, man. You got to apologize. But I just always wanted to know why when they sing, I've never seen just one person sing that song. It's always both of them together. I know, right?

It's the gimmick, right? Yeah, that's the show biz. The showman, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what that is. Did Griffey, was that? Did he react to when you got that big hit? Did he say something to you about? I was curious because you was hitting some duds.

So according to him. Yeah, I don't remember. I really don't remember it though, because we had another hit at the same time that he wasn't very happy about. What, girlfriend? It was called girlfriend. And it was on Pebbles and it was on a competing label, MCA.

And I felt more, uh, I felt more shade from Dick about doing that than I did, uh, congratulations for making rock stage. Damn. Yeah. Okay. All right. As a matter of fact, I remember him coming to visit me once and I was like, hey, man, just made this record on Paul Abdu.

I want to hear? No, I actually, I don't. I love him, man. I love him, man. And I don't say that like I'm trying to be protective of reputationally or anything. Like, I really love the man because he was the first record executive I ever made. executive I ever met. So the whole idea of being a record executive, I was heavily influenced by him. Right. And watching him make decisions and kind of how and why and, you know, some of the things he would say to me, you know,

so it was really, it was really a good and he was impressionable, but we had a really good relationship. Do you remember, I was thinking about this today about Dick. Do you remember something that you took with you from being with him that you learned and something that you said, I ain't taking that with me when I do what I do? Wait a minute. As far as day. I've yet to hear you hang somebody out the window. Yeah, I, I don't, I didn't, it's, there's a lot I didn't take. Okay.

You know, and it's some things that you did. Good answer. Good answer. Yeah, there's, there's, there's some things that I definitely took with me. He called me once and he said, let me ask you something. Seem to know everything. Why are you still living in Cincinnati? I said, it's our hometown. You were still living in Cincinnati?

I was living in Cincinnati when we made our friends. first two albums, right? And he said, you can make more money by accident in Los Angeles than you can make on purpose in Cincinnati. Two weeks later, I lived in L.A.

Oh, my God. Now I've got to know why you left it with Atlanta. Oh, okay, I know we're not going that far yet. We'll go there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just in that initial period, how are, because the thing is, it's like, the deal guys never truly left us because I see different combinations of their names as songwriters, as producers or musicians. So how, what is, what is

the adjustment of sort of dissolving the deal and you and, you and babyface starting your own unit and like, is it, is it church and state? Do you guys, have your own management, your own, like, are you now prioritizing, working in the studio with these artists and then the group later? Like, how's this working out? When I think back on it, and maybe I've never thought about it this way, but when I think back on it, I can see how the other members of the group could really be unhappy with the choices that we made, right? Although they ultimately benefited everybody in that moment, I could see how, the other members of group weren't very happy.

Because one of the things was they liked Cincinnati, my other guys, right? And they're still my friends to this day, right? But they liked Cincinnati. And Kenny and I didn't. We had no desire to be since Cincinnati. And Kenny didn't even like Atlanta that much, right? I mean, he liked it, but like he didn't, he didn't live there very long. He preferred living in Los Angeles.

and, you know, and he was a very ambitious and very talented man and is, is. And, you know, but the other guys kind of were a little bit more homebodies. So they weren't as ambitious. Was there an opportunity for them to join the fray? Like, who's coming with me? Who's coming with me? Or was it sort of like, no, what's just going to stay? I think after, I'm trying to remember exactly how it took place, but I feel like after the last tour, yeah, the last tour we did.

everybody kind of went their separate ways without a conversation. Kenny and I, after the tour was over, we decided to move to Atlanta with my Pebbles was my girlfriend at the time, right? And we all decided, and Darrell Simmons, who is Kenny's best friend and a really talented songwriter and producer. I love the songs, man. Yeah. He decided to move to Atlanta with us. and Keo went to Atlanta with us, but Carlos and Dee, who were our other lead singers,

they went back to Cincinnati. Wait a minute. I'm so, okay, so weird that you're telling this story because when I was watching, New Edition, headline the Essence Festival, I was sitting there just marveling at the fact

that the Michael of the group, the leader of the group, really didn't get his moment in the sun the way that it should have been. Right. You know. Because even in the way that they craft their show is literally like just the best mixtape ever.

Right. They're 40 years. And, you know, not even throwing shade, but yes, sensitivity was probably the slowest part of the night, even though it was a straight up hit. Right. But no, no, no, no, no. But by that point, it was like 19 hits. They already did 19 hits.

It was like, damn, I got to go to bathroom. Sensitivity, all right, all right. Let me take, like. Right, right. Cintivity is the time where it's like, all right, let me sit down

because I know poison is about to come up. I got to rest my time. Right, right. But I was like, I was trying to wonder in history was there ever a case

where the lead singers sort of faded in the background while everyone else in the unit got to do that. So I always wanted to know what did they do once, like in 1989, 1990,

like did they try their hand a song writer? Did they try a prediction? They made a couple of records as the deal because although we all went our separate ways, they did keep the unit together and they toured some. They did some dates in Japan. And they did a few dates here and there. They would work on weekends, at least that's what I understand. And they went out and found a couple of guys that could do the job, you know, and they worked. They've been working.

But they also, they took 9 to 5 jobs. Yeah. But then Dee got very lucky because D, D Bristol, he actually is the guy that wrote the chorus. I only think of you on two occasions. That's day and night. He wrote that. So years later, Mariah Carey used it on We Belonged Together. So he saw.

Publishing check was nice. Money still comes in. Yeah. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions,

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Just in general, between 1987 and 1991, I mean, God damn, you had at least like 60 plus hits, top 40 hits. What is, like, is, what is the, not even the division of labor, but just in terms of that much volume.

What does your life look like right now? Yeah, like how, to me, are you bespoking these songs? Is it like, Jermaine comes to town and you're like talking to him? Okay, here's a song called Don't Take It Personal. You're meeting TLC for the first time. It's like, okay, well, let me see a baby, baby. Like, are these songs sort of like in the stash somewhere in the back? And you're like, would you like this?

Would you like this? Or are you custom making these songs? Some of those songs were custom made. Some of those songs, you got to remember, first of all, Kenny Edmonds is one of the most prolific songwriters ever. So he has a war chest of material that's unreal. Like I, you know, sometimes I want to call and say, man, let me just go through the tapes.

Like, really, because he's so prolific. That's the first thing. So he always had something. But then when we, like if it were Bobby Brown, sometimes we would start things from scratch, Whitney Houston, we would start songs from scratch where we're thinking about the artist. But then every now and then he would pull a song out

that he'd had for a long time. And I'm ready. He gave to Taven Campbell, which is one of my favorite songs. And it had been around for like 10 years or better. I think he might have had that song when I met him, seriously. Okay. I remember that long ago. like in the first

chapter of our relationship as musicians and friends, I remember hearing I'm ready on a demo. So there was a backlog of material, but then we would work on things. End of the road was, I don't think end of the

row was written for boys to men, but once it was done, it was pretty obvious so I knew who to call. Or I remember How do you know how to match a song to an artist? I don't know. I don't really know, but I think that that's what A&R really is, is artist and repertoire, right?

Finding the artist and the repertoire to match it when, it's particularly when it's people that maybe either they don't write songs or they collaborate or they accept outside songs. And we tended to work with people who accepted outside material. We didn't like it that much, we're working with people who could also write, because it always changed how we would write. right. And we had a thing that we like to do. And we thought of ourselves as we thought we were the deal and whoever was singing was the lead singer, right? But it was like every song was, I'm your baby tonight is the deal featuring Whitney Houston. That's how we always look at, right? Or my, my, my, is the deal featuring Johnny Gill or, you know, because me and Kenny and Keough and they're all basically played on everything, you know, or programmed or however you want to look at it. We create. all of the music for it.

And we didn't really like tampering. So I remember once we were doing Jermaine Jackson and we finished some records and then he brought in his keyboard player to like reproduce all the songs. And we were like, what's this? And the dude was, and I forget his name, now he's really talented, but it was just changing everything. And it was like, no, this doesn't work.

No. No. I said, we'll keep that solo we did. That's the best we could do. at work at Saturday Night Live whenever comedians stand-up comedians host the show they try to bring their team in

to try to write for them. Right. And it never works. It's always best when you just trust the system and let the producers or let the writers do it. So for that initial gust of L.A. Facedom. What song

almost didn't make it. Oh man, let me see. Almost didn't. At least a staple that we know. I don't know. I think we were way too greedy and ambitious, man. We were trying to get everything, y'all. Like, I don't recall that one. I don't have a good answer with that one.

Okay. You guys produced Pebbles, and you also produced Karen White's first record. Right. Wow. First album. Yep. Amazing results.

Second album Why didn't Karen White Now I knew at the time she's dating Terry Lewis Why didn't you guys work on the second Karen White record? Or was that a Benny Ben Dina thing? Oh, no, that definitely wasn't a Benny thing.

Oh, wait a minute. He was there? It was. It was a big thing. Hold up. Hold it. So, ah, okay. This is like my best friend.

Wait, wait, let me ask, Fonte, for the life of you, can you sing the first, and I know Jam is going to kill me for this, but even I got him to admit this. Can you name, can you sing the first verse of a romantic? No. Dude, do you know that romantic actually went to number one? Yeah, I believe that was on the radio hard, though.

Wow. Yeah, it was a number one pop hit. Yeah, it's on the radio hard. Look at Fonte's. based right now. Exactly. Yeah, I couldn't. I remember the hook list, kids, pros, man. Trying to get romance.

Oh, oh, romance. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Y'all all singing the wrong romantic. It's not it's time to get romantic. Okay. My whole point is that, yes, even though they managed to get a number one pop single off that Karen White record.

There was no impact. I could name no cut for the life of me. And my thing is like, if it's not, broke now again my my assumption is she married terry lewis so it's sort of like is this bring your husband to workday or whatever but i just i wouldn't have to mess with the point no no i think it was i think you nailed it okay so for entertainment i have to tell you this story just for entertainment sake and i'm not and i'll go quickly no we love us so we're in new orleans where you are now there used to be a show called the bud wiser super fest uh yes yes

We're on the tour. Al Hayman. We're on the tour. Al Hayman. Thank you. And we're on the package doing our final tour with two occasions and Pebbles is with us. She's not on the tour, but she's hanging out with me. Her tour ended. She's just hanging with me. Benny Medina invites us to a Warner Music conference that they're having in New Orleans. Right. And all the labels, like Warner, Elektra, Atlantic, all the labels, and all the big executives who I didn't know at the time, Steve Ross and Bob Krasnall and David Geffen

and Quincy Jones and Doug Morris and Jimmy. All these, I didn't know any of them. Anyway, so Benny invites us because we happen to have one of their hottest records, Superwoman with Karen White at the time. So he invites Babyface and I to the conference. So we're like, great. So we go to the conference,

And we walk in and it's baby face pebbles and myself. And I don't know record company politics or anything like that. Benny comes running over to us and says, I invited you and I invited you. And he points to pebbles and he says, but I did not invite her. And I'm like, well, if she can't come, then I don't want to be here.

And I don't get it. I don't. And we turn around and leave. and we fall out. And Benny and I don't speak for a decade, right? Wow. And 10 years later, he told me it was because L.A., I was seating you guys with Karen White,

and it's her moment, and her competition is pebbles, and you bring pebbles in, and you're going to put her at the same table. Like, and I was like, oh, I thought you were just being an asshole. I didn't realize I was wrong here. I didn't know. I didn't know. So I didn't speak to Benny for a decade.

and we never worked with Karen again. Wow. Finally, an answer I'm satisfied with, because it's like, why ruin the formula? Why ruin the formula? Exactly. And we loved working with Karen, like, loved it. And we had fun doing it, right?

She was fun. She could sing. She had a great tone, great voice, and she was like a real musician type of singer. You know, she had some, you know, she knew music. She knew about, you know, Slide in a family stone, on things that we liked, she knew about, by the way, the end of Superwoman,

ever so slightly like Purple Rain. Oh, with the strings and the ooh, and the ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Ah, yeah. Ever so slightly. Nice. That's the stories I like. Yay.

Yeah, you got that. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, we were first introduced to you as kind of solar house producers Yes. One, how did that phase end? It almost looked like you had a universal MCA situation about to happen. Yes.

And then the next thing I know, everything's happening on Arista. Now, when you're doing a roster, when you're when you're producing for these artists, is it a contractual thing? Are you allowed to do other people? Or is it like once you start the Arista phase, you must stick the Arista and Arista only. It wasn't exactly that. It started out that we were solar in-house producers for sure.

And after the whispers took off and the deal and baby face had hits, Lil Silas, we became friends with Lul and Cheryl Dickerson at both of them and Gerald Busby. We became friends with the MCA crew. And we went over and started helping them. we did the Mac band for them. One of my favorite songs we ever did was Roses are Red. Rosasar Red. Yeah, and it feels underrated.

It feels like no one knows it, you know, but I really dig that. And we ended up doing pebbles for them. And he did the boys as well. And we did the boys. Yeah. And, yeah. Boyce to Men. Later, when it became Motown, we did Boys to Men.

No label CEOs is making you guys sign an exclusive contract to stay with just, like, it never occurred. to Dick Griffey to say you guys are my house producers only? I think I did sign a contract with Solar for to be an exclusive in-house producer, but I never got I never got the money, so I never

honored it. Okay, cool. Yeah, you know, he didn't hold me to it. I didn't hold him to it. We were like, and it wasn't for that much money. Yeah, so we worked with Lle for a while and then Benny Medina called, no, someone called us and asked us to meet Benny Medina. So we went over and we met him and we said, who's on your roster? And he named Al Jaro.

We were like, nah. Says Chaka Khan, whom is my favorite singer. But I was like, I don't know how we could do any better than I feel for you, you know. And then he said Karen White. And I remember hearing her on the radio singing, these are the facts of love. And I was like, oh, we could do something with that, right? And so that's how it worked out. So, yes, we were supposed to do LaFace record.

with MCA. It wasn't universal yet. It was MCA. And Irving Azov ran the company. Yeah. And Gerald Busby had already departed to start Motown, to take over Motown. And Lle was still there also.

What was Lil Silas Jr? Like, just as an executive? A lot of energy. He knew his records. Like, you know, he was a DJ too, you know. And he remixed every song that came out. Like, every single song that. came out at that time.

He would remix. He would remix. Guy records, anything. See, I thought he was just slapping his name on those productions. I didn't realize that he had a crew. He had a team of people. He had an engineer. He had a programmer.

And it was him. And he would take all the records that he liked. He would take him in and do the remix of him. You know, and sometimes they'd be harder when he's done with them. Like, not every time, but sometimes they would be hard. But he was a lot of fun, really competitive. And at that time in black music in LA, there were like these three superstar A&R guys.

One of them was Louis Silas Jr. The other one was John McLean, who was at A&M. That's our dream interview. We can't find him for Jack. He's the greatest. And then there was Benny Medina who was at Warner, right? But these are like the three stars in town. And, you know, and I became friends with all of them.

and it was really great. But Louis was great, man. He was fun. That's what I. It was great. Great dude. At the time when I first, I think when I heard Donnie Simpson make the announcement

that Whitney Houston is going to work with Ellie in face, I got slightly nervous. Wow. Rightly. Because the thing is that, you know, the Whitney train was, you know,

and I'm not saying anything that isn't facts. You know, she definitely, it was overkill. We all know about the booing up the Soul Train Awards and all those things. Right. And I often wondered if placing her in your hands was almost a setup for a disaster. Because the thing is, like the first album sells 12 million.

And the second album sells 15 million. So there's like in meeting with Clive Davis, is he saying to yourself like, Don't fuck up. Like, y'all better give me another 10 to 15 million. And how was the general, what was the general consist? When I'm your baby tonight only did, again, I don't consider it. It did a solid 5 million. Right.

That's right. But it wasn't what the first two albums were. And actually, I'm glad it wasn't what the first two records were. But just can you walk us through that whole, what was the pressure? I think that didn't feel pressure, first of all. did not feel any pressure, didn't approach it that way. He was very clear that Whitney had a black problem. So his goal wasn't, I want to sell 15 million.

His goal was ingratiate my artist with the black community, please. Like stand beside her, work with her because they don't think she's cool, right? And so success was simply black people saying, okay, Whitney. She needed a jam. Right. That's all it was. That's all it was. And so we didn't feel any pressure.

And we knew we couldn't be, I'm being honest, we knew we couldn't make those kinds of records. Like those big records that she had. Well, yeah, okay, I get that. You know, like we didn't write like that. We didn't produce like that. I think through a ballot you could have reached those heights. Probably, right.

But my thing is that in that time, in 1990, when New Jack Swing is going Gaga, and you guys are actually the proprietors, I mean, the entire Don't Be Cool record is a tutorial, and New Jack Swing them. Right. But next to the Eyes of a Stranger record, I was so confused as to why a shuffle song

was her first statement in reclaiming her throne. Yeah, but it worked. Yeah, it was perfect. Yeah. Okay. Yes. I think it worked because the powers that be made it work. Everyone knew who Ellie and Babyface were.

Everyone knew who Whitney Houston was. So it was like, and it was a great song. Let's be clear. I mean, I was a great fucking song. Yeah, yeah. Like, the shit was a jam. Okay.

But it was just an unusual risky song. Okay. All right. Risky. It was risky. Like, because could DJs have played that in the nightclub? Like, that level of shuffle and 12-8 meter was like harking back to like Luther Van Jones's bad boy having a party,

which is more barbecue. Oh, watch out now. Like barbecue. Not every little step, not on our own. Yes. Not girlfriend.

Not a straight ahead. No, no, it's a risk. In hindsight, I would say it's the best move because I love when risks work. But damn, yo, like why? But we also, you know what else it was? we had played ourselves out, like not to the public, maybe, but we had played ourselves out with that sound.

And we had moved to Atlanta, and we were experimenting, because we were trying to refine ourselves, and we couldn't do the doubt of my heart again. We couldn't do, you know, we just couldn't do it anymore. Like, we had done it so much on so many songs. Like, every song had had that kind of groove on it, and it was, it's just that tired. you know, for us.

And so I'm a baby tonight was, it was a little bit of us reinventing us as much as it was trying to give Whitney Houston something that we thought was unique. I can totally see that. I would have thought Susan would have probably, well, if Susan didn't have a direct proper noun attached to it, I would have thought like, my name is not Susan

would have been. Right. Yeah. But I think that was what she needed. It reminded me a lot of Jimmy Jam's story of like doing with Janet and like, you know, if was the one on the Janet album. Right.

That was the one that was like Janet, the gimmie, just, you know, go. But that's the way love goes was the one that's like, oh, shit. Right. I mean, it's, you know, it's a different thing, you know. And that's what I'm your baby tonight was for me. Yeah, they always went with it first. Let's turn it around. And to be honest, not to be that radio girl use this old, you know, logic, but they both

sound like more female records. Like, I'm your baby tonight. It's way more female just like. Yeah. Janet, yeah, it's just women heard and it was like. I was really proud of it. I was so proud of that record when we finished it because it was, we had never done a shuffle. We had, we had, no songs like that.

And I was proud of, I was just proud of it. And it, and it didn't matter to me the success of it. And I know that sounds like I'm being a little bit frivolous about it, but it was more like, can we tackle Whitney Houston and do something with Whitney that hasn't been? done already because we can't do what she's done better than she's done it. So can we do something that's just our take on it? And we did that successfully. And I was very happy with it.

And I don't know, I really do like the drum fills on it. No, in hindsight, I think it's a great normalizing. It normalized her, made her relatable and down the earth. That's what it was for. And, you know, because the joints I liked on the first record were like the chief records and that sort of thing. And it didn't have any sugar pop on it, which I'm glad. We had a little problem that we never discussed. I never talked to Kenny about it.

But we did Whitney and we did Michael. And our Michael stuff never came out because we couldn't nail it. We spent a lot of time with Michael and we just couldn't nail it. And we spent a lot of time with Whitney and we were able to get a little bit off. But for some reason, those are big stars because that wasn't our thing. Our thing was the artist of our generation.

Like, that's what we were great at, if we were great at anything. It was like, let's work with Bobby Brown. You know, let's work with Pabbles. Let's do baby face. Let's do, you know, Karen White. Let's do our crew, after seven even. Like our crew.

But when we went outside of our, our circle and tried to do those superstars. The truth is we did not nail it. We did not nail it. Now, we got something off with Whitney, and we developed an incredible relationship with her that would last for many years. But none of those, it didn't resemble the success that we'd had, not sound-wise, not signature-wise, not impact-wise.

And it was the first, and you're right, because it was the first time that you could criticize whether it was actually the right thing. And after that we did Michael I mean we couldn't even get out of the studio with a song man And we knew how to write And we knew how to produce But there was something about being in that room with Michael That we just were overshooting it

And trying too hard And just could not get any Nothing felt natural A win is a win A win A win is a win I don't care what you're saying Yep, that's me

Clipper Teton of the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes,

follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends, Oh my God, this is the same man.

A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Wodom. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network.

It's Will Farrell. Wooo, woo, whoo, who. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with him one day. And I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet.

Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be.

Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft, and we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galko, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar, this is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars. And now, I guess also is the co-host of the away end, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist. And John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old.

I watched every game. and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years

since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history, its hope, it's heartbreak,

and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So how hard was it to walk away from the dangerous record knowing that, damn, we couldn't do it? We just knew it. Like when we went home, when we left the studio after being in there for a month, and when we went home.

Oh, wow. It was a month. Yeah. Oh, one song? No, we attempted to write several songs. And he recorded background vocals on one, never finished it. And he completed one, never mixed it. The Slate to the Rhythm song, right?

Slave to the rhythm, yeah. So did anything happen to those other songs that were meant for him? No. They're just sitting. They're sitting somewhere. I think they might be in my vault. I think they might be in my vault. because that's where I found slave to the rhythm that, you know,

because we didn't do slave to the rhythm with Sony. We did that with Michael. We didn't do it as a higher, by the record label. That was a relationship just between us and Michael. So we all kept, we kept our tapes. So was that a teachable lesson in,

or make you leery of those A-list stars? Like, because I'm certain by that point, everybody was calling you. Like, who would you say no to? A-listed, well, Kenny became,

much better at it, right? Because he did Madonna successfully and he did Eric Clapton successfully. And so he became, he nailed it. I went the other way, which was, I only wanted to work with the artist that we were signing. I didn't want to work with anybody else. You signed, you were like, I'm going to manufacture the next 10 million. Yes, I'm doing that. So I just went into that mode.

And so what was the realization point where it's like, hey, office. life. Like, who does that? Who wants, who who wants to be a rock star and then says, or did you realize early that all of the power and the money and the success and the magic is behind? It wasn't that. You know what it was for me? It was, it was really the love of music, man. It was because I loved music, not only the music that Kenny and I made, but when I met people like Dallas Austin or when I met like, not just people I work with, but when I would meet other producers,

I would love their music. Like I love Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis are like my favorite producers. Leon Silver's is my favorite, you know, amongst my favorite producers. And when Nelly Hooper did soul to soul, like I met him and I was like taking and Martinelli, I met him at Clarence Avon's house. And I just, I love the people that made music.

So I didn't want a career that was based on music that I made. I didn't think I was good enough for that. I wanted to be a career that I could work with people that I thought were immensely talented. So my career decisions had only to do with music. It had nothing to do with power. It had nothing to do with money. It was a pure love of damn, I love how Dallas does this. I love how Jermaine DePree does that. Oh my God, these kids organized noise. They do this. And they do it was my, purely my love of music and my love of artistry, right? And I like the idea of like when we met Pebbles,

no one knew who she was and we made her record and it worked. And so and when we did Karen White, no one knew who that was. I mean, she had one song on the radio, but she wasn't famous, so to speak, or our own band, the deal, a baby face or. So I was so into homegrown. And I felt comfortable in homegrown. and I felt uncomfortable having to measure up to stars. But you realize that once you get behind that desk,

your Jedi Mind Trick knowledge has to go into overdrive. Because I'm certain by that point, like when you're having your own label, you're trying to, you got to talk people out of a lot of bad decisions. Right. Like you got to take meetings and you got to remember names. Bad cop, bad cop. And go to things like Jack the rapper and whatever, shake hands and kiss babies. Like, who would trade?

I think it's for the state that you are in your life. Like, I had, like, I was my group, little brother, we was signed to Atlantic, you know, years ago. And, you know, Julie Greenwald, we would have conversations. And, you know, she would say, like, you know, we had a Commonwealth recently. And she was just talking about how at this point in her career, she enjoys kind of being in the stage, you know, where you are. and just all the OGs in the game where they're able to kind of sit back and see the whole big picture

and kind of direct from that standpoint. So being in the room where it happens is more? Yeah, like that's, yeah, that's the thing. And I get it. It makes total sense, you know, versus when you're, you know, in your L.A. and Babyface days where you're actually kind of in the field, so to speak,

like where you're in the studio, you're programming the drums, whatever. Now you get to kind of be the big picture guy and assemble all the pieces. There's one thing I learned about it that I do love. and being an executive. And it had to do with choices about artists and records.

And like the great, the ones I love that I consider the great Barry Gordy, obviously being number one on that side of the ledger, right? As an executive, Clive Davis, I obviously love and respect Jimmy Iveen, Amad Irrigan, and there are others, you know. But what I loved is if they, were passionate about something, they could drive it. And to your point, right, like you, I think you kind of called it manufacturing, but it was more like if you have this intuition or this instinct, that this gut, that something is the thing and to just drive it through. Yeah. Right.

We believe in it. It's a belief. That belief thing, I like, I like that. I don't see much of that these days. I really don't. Like with, I see people really having to have dates. to back up their decisions. Oh, yeah. Man. Oh, yeah. Right. I like the fact that, you know,

we did it with our gut and we were wrong a lot of times, but we were right enough times that we are considered successful, right? I like that and I like that particularly for black artists, because black artists don't often get an opportunity to get a crossover shot, a shot to the mainstream. That is all because. Like Whitney Houston is because Clive Davis said this is for the masses.

Rihanna is because I said this is for the masses. When you signed Rihanna, I mean, she's now God status. Like there's, yeah, she's literally past, she's past the Vanguard level. Like in my mind,

Rihanna would have just been like maybe Janet Jackson level where she just has 20 hits under her belt, but she's now past that point. I can't say, I knew all that. Maybe Jay Brown knew it. Maybe Jay Z knew it, right?

Because obviously all of us were involved together. I can't say that. When I first saw her and I heard her first Ponda replay, Jay Brown brought it to me one night in the office. It was really late at night. And I was like, I guess. Right. That was my reaction.

I guess. All right. Can I ask one more question? All right, right. This is also the period where we were about to sign to the label. Yeah. I remember once going to a Jay show, Rihanna was there. and you signed.

Rita Oro. What's her name? Rita Oro. No, no, not Rita Ora. Tierra Marie. There you go. Tierra Marie. Now, the energy that I felt

in the room when I was backstage was Tierra Marie was going to be out of the smash. 100%. And Brianna got the cute little hit and she'll probably get on like

100. Her song will play in the malls. I thought she's going to be on that. Now that's what I call music volume 37. Yeah, yeah. And the opposite happened. Yeah. So how, how does it, again, is that Jedi mind-tricking where you have to know who your artist is?

Like, how long do you get to absorb an artist to know what they need in order to make it happen? I think it's just like, okay, so. Especially when they self-sabotage a lot. Right. So I think this First of all I think this helps answer One of your other questions Yes we really believed in Tia Marie

All of us She got the Rockefeller chain all of it Yes she believed in her Yeah It didn't work I love her as a person I saw her not long ago But it didn't it didn't connect at all The songs didn't connect

The artist didn't really connect And so no you can't force it You could you can prioritize it And you can try, but you can't, you can lead the horse to water, but you cannot make them drink, right? It doesn't, it didn't work. Rihanna, on the other hand, I grew, I grew into it personally. Like, I remember when it hit me. I remember really well when it hit me, sitting in the house one night and listening to the demos.

And, you know, Jay Brown, Tata, and those guys, they, they were making her records, like, and they would give her. them to me to listen to. And I remember sitting at home listening to Good Girl Gone Bad and all these songs. I came back and said, wait a minute, guys, we should call it album that. We should call it album Good Girl Gone Bad, right? And it was like it was a statement. Anyway, my point is it all of a sudden hit me that she was it. And then she did this song called SOS.

And I watched a video for SOS. And I took it home. I told my wife, Erica, I was like, this girl's about to be the biggest star in the country, if not the world. Watch this video. And we watched the video. And she was like, okay, I get it.

And then she made an umbrella. And when she made umbrella, I was, I, then do I know, do I have an instinct? Do I have an intuition? In those moments? Yes. Because I knew that was out of here. I was like, yeah, she's gone, right?

Okay, you get a song like Umbrella. You get Jay-Z on that song. Can you walk us through the process of what it takes to make that song connect with an artist? Like, how do you play it? Who do you play it for first? Who gets the exclusive?

Or did the dream just bring it? Yeah, the dream's process. Yeah, so. No, no, no, no. I'm being creatively. I'm talking about once you have album in hand. Okay. How do you make sure that 12 million people around the world know what umbrella is?

At the time, there are more avenues now. The game has gotten pretty complicated and it's and it's flooded with stuff, right? From all these platforms and all this DIY and every, very low barrier to entry. So there's a lot more stuff than there are, than there is special. special stuff. Yes. In the game, back in those days, a record executive can make a record of priority and put it on radio, all radio, and people will hear it.

And video, video mattered, right? And MTV matter, and BET matter, and VH1 matter. Right. So all of our avenues and our platforms, we had enough influence that we could get it a shot. It still had to take off. But our job was just to get it in front of the people. And that's what we did. We got it in front of the people and it took off. So does that also mean that your relationship has to be intact with, I don't know who like ran MTV or Viacom at the time or your relationship with whoever, runs clear channel. Yes. Yeah.

It absolutely means that. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Those contacts are golden. They really are. I mean, we try to always keep them. And even with the changing of guards, right? We're right there to, you know, hail the new king, hell the new queen.

But the relationships are golden. But it's also the artist relationships with these people and with these gatekeepers. You know, they also have to have their own. They have to do the work. We can't do the work for an artist. An artist has to do that. You know, so it's you knowing Tom, you know, Pullman.

It's you knowing John Sykes. And it's, you know what I mean? It's you knowing Stephen Hill or Calderon at MTV or Jesse Collins or whoever it might. It's you knowing everybody also. And that has a lot of, I think that has a lot of weight. So even now, like, does it get tiring to have to know name? and what they represent. How do you keep up, L.A.?

It's exciting. I'm the worst at that shit. Okay. It's more than ever, right? That's exciting, though. Now, I love that. I absolutely love the challenge of that. And my memory is horrible.

I mean, you can ask me anything about the 80s, I remember it, but anything from like 2011 forward, I can barely remember. I don't know why. But I really like the idea of it. I mean, once I embrace being an executive, I did have a goal, and my goal was to be the best. Yep, you know it. So check it.

L.A. only wanted to do about an hour, but you know that we couldn't let him go. So once we got him rolling, he just wouldn't stop talking. So basically, that's it for part two. I want you to check back for our third and final QLS episode with L.A. Reid. And while you're at it, definitely check out our QLS episodes

with Babyface as well. You know, go hand in hand. All right? See y'all next time. Thank you. Much Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserved. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits, teams look for. to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar.

This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an iHeart podcast.

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