The Questlove Show - QLS Classic: Ronan Farrow

Episode Date: September 19, 2022

Pulitzer Prize-winning author and journalist Ronan Farrow speaks with Questlove Supreme about his book War On Peace: The End of Diplomacy and the Decline of American Influence. He also touches on growing up in a diverse family and his passion for bringing the truth to the light.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clivert Show on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else.

If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Quest Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. What's up? This is on Paid Bill for Quest Love Supreme. On this week's classic, we revisit May 30th, 2018,

interview with journalists and author Ronan Farrow. He dropped by to talk about his first book, War on Peace. The chat led to talk about family, Mo Steth, and Ronan's Pursuit of the Truth, Episode 86, enjoy. Supremia, Sutt, Supremma roll call. Supremma, Suc, Suc, Suc, Siprauma Road Call. Supremma, Suc, Suc, Sipra Role Call. Supreme a Role Call. I am for real.

Yeah. I am so damn. Yeah. Ronan Farrell. Expose these clams. Rolls. Suprema. Suprema, sub, sub, subprima roll call.

Suprema, sub, sub, subprima roll call. My name is Fonte. Yeah. I can't play the word litzer. Yeah. I never had a bar mitzful. Yeah. Congrats on that Pulitzer.

Oh, ha. Suprima. So, sub, sub, subprima roll call. Suprema, sub, sub, subprima roll call. My name is Sugar. Yeah. When I heard Pharaoh. Yeah.

I was like, oh, you vei. Yeah. Not again. Suprima, sub, sub, subprima roll call. Suprema, sub, sub, subprima roll call. I'm on paid bill. Yeah. And life is hard.

Yeah. When you live inside. Yeah. House of Cards. Roll call. Suprema, Subima, sub, sub, subprima roll call. Supremma, sub, subprima role call.

So yes, lie am. and Ronan Pharaoh Everything he says Yeah I follow, yep, me too Roca Suprema Just you know row with it

It doesn't matter Because me too Suprema Suprema roll call I'm Roan and Farrow I'm here to stay I cannot freestyle But I got other

Redteamins Supreme Roleca Oh is there's no people Subramal roll call Supreme Superba Rolls We started

Cruden shit That was amazing For crooning Guys We definitely need Another take But there's Promising stuff there

We are a one Barmits The Pulitzer I love Let me Bar Mitzu I'm a professional rapper

I was Outside and I I saw the I had I knew bar mitzvah. And then I saw the wordlets outside. I was like, ah.

You can do like like Pulitzer's soul sister. Yeah, yeah. That works as well. See, if you were trained. All the revelation comes after roll call. Before roll call, there is nothing we can think of that,

you know, that rhymes with the word that we intended. You do that every time. That's exhausting. Every time. That's like a hazing ritual. 100%. What episode is this?

Like 80s something? What are the 80 something? Congrats on your 80-somethingth episode, guys. Thank you. That means each, each freaking roll call has been somewhat customized. I have all mine saved. You're a lie.

I swear to God. Oh, yours. Okay. But you're also mostly off topic because I like to be as off topic as pop. Wait, this is weird. Because this, well, this is the one, yours is always political. Yeah. No matter what.

Like, even if we have like, 100%. Like, you know, the food episode. You'll talk about what happened in the news that week. So you're like our political conscience. A little bit. But not really. Is he our professor Griff? I was going to try to do a non-political one this week because it's political to fuck with you all.

But I didn't. Yeah, I was like, you better stick to stung to some. No, Roni here. But Zara's here. By the way, special guest, Zara Zohman, here today. Just say the word hi. No. She's very shy.

My goal is to get her to open up. Yeah. It's like therapy. We are literally, yeah. We, in place of boss Bill, Zara, one of my seven managers is here. Ooh, maybe we can get into it later. Oh, yeah. No, because it's not about me.

Right now, our special guest. You're right. You know, I will say probably one of the hardest things to do. I think in terms of David and Goliath is taking a stand and calling people out. Listen to the truth, especially when terms like fake names. news gets thrown around a lot and, you know, there are a certain few that still don't know who to believe, you know, the 85%, I guess. Anyway, this man has, in my opinion, he's leading the charge and he's a mighty David to

the world's Goliath. His new book just got released, War and Peace. Thank you. I want to talk about that. Plug the hell out of that, guys. Yes. Welcome to Rundon and Barrow. Thank you.

Time. It means a lot to hear that from you, Queslaw. Yeah. How cool is that? I saw your speech last night. That was really incredible how you big up your mom for it, you know.

Yeah. You know, look, I brought with me actually one of the first women who went on the record in these stories I wrote about Harvey Weinstein. And, you know, there's a reason for that. I really, I was there because of her. And I feel like we have all benefited

so much from the example of how brave these women were. and you're right my mom was there too and she is a super brave woman who has gotten a lot of flack for standing up for her daughter and for women's rights and uh i owe a lot to her i gotta say even like news news of you uh writing the the new york of peace and and your work before of course we at one point worked in the same building at 30 rock what i call 30 rock university I'll just say that you graduated. You kicked out, graduated. We'll talk about that later. You know.

You definitely had a cooler layer in 30 Rock than I did. Yeah, but you guys were the know-it-alls, man. And I was always a big fan of the third floor, all the cats at every CBC. Yeah, there's some great reporters there. But I'll say that even though I believe maybe the first time I met you, I recall, did you guys ever attend a show with Moose? I know at the time when he was doing Be Kind Rewind. Yeah.

Wow, that is a piece of obscure IMDB trivia. My mom co-starred with Moose in this Michelle Gondry movie. Sure did. Right. Yeah. And she loved Moes. She was like, this guy is the salt of the earth. She thought he was so sweet.

He was so supportive of her. point that you guys that was going to be like the adoption thing like most was just going to like he was going to be the latest addition to the pharaoh family exactly i could have loved that i saw even i don't know if you were your siblings at at at one of his shows that i haven't to be at totally possible i mean i'm a big fan of his okay so but i'm i'll say that my my true introduction to you was your your twitter feed which was super fearless. At first, I didn't, I didn't even know you were journalists. I just thought, yo, your singers are... I'm glad you like them. They have gotten me in trouble over the years.

Yeah, I was going to say, how did your father's day tweet? I don't know if this is the white elephant in the room, whatever, but your father's day tweet was rather interesting. I had some spicy tweets in my day. Yeah. But, you know, how did you deal with that? Because usually I get a lot of clap back from, you know, my inner circle. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've just been. Has that always been you? Like, I'm going to call it out. If I see bullshit, I'm going to call it out.

For sure, for sure. I think when you're calling out bullshit through careful investigative reporting, you do have to then be careful about, like, being glib on social media. So it's a delicate balance, you know, it depends on the topic. So you can't be, yeah, you're not. I think, you know, while I'm in the. middle of such sensitive stuff and I'm so under fire from some pretty nasty people that I've exposed.

Can't be joking. You know, I still get a little in edgewise. Especially in the last, you know, a few, I want to say weeks. Yeah, during this period. Yeah. These things. It's like, okay, Ronan's, your Twitter might go more PG now. It's a little more PG.

Yeah. I also think, you know, Twitter has changed. Like, our cultural moment has changed. There was a period where, like, I'd go on with, you know, Jimmy and he'd, like, read his favorite tweets of mine. I don't think we do that anymore. Like, the novelty of Twitter wore off. And it's now more, for me anyway, like a rolodex of fellow reporters rather than like a joke

medium. Oh, yeah. It's more like the morning papers now. It's like the morning paper. Yeah, yeah, right. It's more of just a news aggregator for me. Hashtag is a thread. Yeah, it's a thread.

It's a thread. So nothing's funny anymore. Yeah, nothing's funny. Well, you guys are still funny. That works. So just as a young person were, when did you? realize that this is bullshit

and I have to stand up for something or were you were you the tattle tail of your siblings like what I was not a snitch I'm here I uh because it's weird just from where I came from like I was raised

okay I used to be the cousin that told ooh didn't have a cookie jar right but I I was raised like you my uncle would punish the guilty party and then punish the snitcher

everybody yeah it's like what did I do he's like you're supposed to stick together you're not supposed to stick together yeah which is like that's that's kind of weird we at a young age I'll say that at least culturally black people were were slow to call things out

and then maybe by their teens then it's like to tell it like it is thing because then you just realize that this is bullshit and I got to stand up. So at what point were, did you feel like, on my own to, I got a I was always raised with a really strong spirit of public service and justice and I think a lot of that flows from my mom being like a recovering Catholic school girl who, you know,

still really was inculcated with that kind of save the world attitude. And I think, you know, speaking the truth and cutting through bullshit it, even when it means putting a lot on the line is a big part of that. But what's interesting when you talk about snitching is, you know, my day job as an investigative reporter requires both a lot of telling of hard truths and also a lot of keeping of secrets, right? Because you're dealing with all of these anonymous sources. Yeah. And, you know, even when people go on the record, you know, you have to be very careful about parsing out the parts they want to say, the parts they don't want to say, and one of the most important things I do is respecting people's privacy.

Well, let me make clear Snitching is, at least culturally for us, snitching is like when you're part of an operation and then you get caught. And then you rat everyone else out. No, you're cool because boss bill's not here. Everyone has had a hardest one

and I want you guys to chew on the microphone. We're all going to be taking calls during this podcast. Just take some calls and, you know, chew on the microphone. Yes, sound effects, all this stuff. But so I would not necessarily say, I mean, keeping a secret is necessary in your line of business. And I feel that's not. You walking back?

No, I never, I mean, I like the introduction to where. Interesting point. That's why I was super interesting. I wanted you to go back to what you said about him and your brothers and sisters because when you came in here, you were already talking about your brothers and sisters. How many do you have? I am one of 14. Wow.

It's a lot. And where? Your last name is not Johnson? And where are you in the scheme of the 14? There are four younger than me. Ten of my siblings are adopted, and most of them have, you know, really traumatic, difficult backgrounds of various kinds, you know, adopted from terrible situations of poverty and abuse.

You know, many of them adopted older at a point where basically they would not have found a home otherwise. And, you know, those are the people I love most and I grew up with. And it really gave me this incredible sense of perspective. It's hard to, like, sob into your soup about anything when you have so many of the world's challenges right at your doorstep. So from the gate, being one of 14, like, you're automatically taught community service and that sort of, I mean, it wasn't a Silver Spoon situation and then you decided.

Because there's some people that, like, they grow up privileged and rich, and then they realize, like, yo, this is bullshit. And, you know, I'd never, like, complain of hardship in that respect, because Lord knows I've reported on and seen plenty of real hardship. And I didn't have that. But, you know, I was raised by a single mom who was at that point, you know, not working all the time. And it was very clear that we all had to strike out and make a living as early as possible. And, you know, not everyone could go to private school. It was merit-based. And, you know, we were really fortunate. I was supported through my whole childhood, but it wasn't opulent. And, you know, the flip side was that there were all these

very real traumas and often really just physical challenges that I saw my siblings go through. So I was, I was exposed to that from an early age. Wait, you said something interesting. You said going to private school was merit-based. Well, you know, a lot of my siblings had the benefit of, like, wonderful public schools in our, towns that we grew up in in Connecticut. We moved around a little bit. It was New York, Connecticut. You weren't born in New York.

I was born in New York, and then I spent my teens in Connecticut, and it was kind of, I think it was an individual decision for each person, like, okay, what are they going to benefit from most? You know, how good is the local school, you know, what makes sense, are they really going to get a lot out of some kind of a specialized program, you know, whether they either, you know, need more attentive education because they've got special needs or because they're excelling in a particular way and that needs to be tended to.

That's a lot of work for your mom. Like that is. Unbelievable work. She was an incredible mom and I saw her shoulder this huge burden all by herself. Did you get, do any of you guys have kids? Yeah, I got two boys, 17 and 12. So you know what a handful. They're my kids.

It's a lot. It's a lot. And I can't imagine doing that all alone, you know, while making a living. with so many kids. It's a lot to bite up. I definitely grew up knowing that I didn't want to adopt 10 kids, but I also grew up really admiring the hell out of it. How is it fighting for your own space and your own voice and your...

I would assume that you had to be diplomatic and, you know, the biggest vote wins and we get to watch this channel and, you know... Yeah, a lot of early negotiating skills. I hadn't thought of it in that way, but that's probably true. I mean, a lot of fighting over food. You know, we were like, we were a dark meat family when it came to chicken, and the dark meat was always gone, you know. There's never enough drumsticks to go around.

Yo, son, your last name is Johnson. No, listen, we just had a whole conversation about good hair and whatnot. And it's funny because that was my next question to you, like breaking down the diversity of your brothers and sisters. Yeah. Because that provided such a different understanding for you, you know, especially as a white man. Totally different understanding.

I mean, look, I'm still a white guy, and I would not claim to understand what it's like to grow up as a black woman in our society. But I can claim to understand what it's like to grow up with a bedroom next to the bedroom of a black young woman. And that's a lot.

That's a whole... I mean, I want to be careful because I was telling you before, like, I have, you know... You have black siblings. Yeah, I have black siblings. Yeah. I have black siblings. We were real, like,

United Colors of Benetton. And... Joe's been Baker clan. Yeah. I know, you know, I have... You know, there are black women in my life who are very disapproving of the Chris Rock documentary that you just mentioned. Oh, the good hair.

That's what we got. I wasn't going to put you on. Yeah. It's an interesting conversation. Really? It's an interesting conversation that people have about that. And it's not really for me to say, you know, how sensitive he was or not because I'm not in that demographic.

But certainly I got a taste of the hair traumas of, honestly, the childhood of just about any girl of any color, because as I was telling you earlier, my Asian siblings were, like, getting perms and wanting curly hair. and you know my black sister was like you know going through the whole rigmarole of like strainer, and relaxers and you know going out in the rain and it's all ruined. So God bless anyone who finds equilibrium on their hair, whatever color it may be. Wait, tell them out.

You, so you had a problem with good hair? No, I, I didn't have a problem. Not me. But I saw the point of it. I saw the point in the problem because I was saying at the end of the day, Chris Rock is a man. And so it was from a perspective of men and a lot of things were left out. That's what we were talking about.

Oh, okay. Now I watch again and see. I mean, white people I know loved that documentary. Of course, because I feel so full of insight now. Yeah. And I was kind of surprised then, you know, you talk to black women about it and it's a little more split down the middle where like you found things to respect in it. And I mean, I certainly enjoyed it. And I think it was well-intentioned.

And his intentions in doing it when it comes to. Yeah. Did not know that. Okay. Where did you go to high school? Did you all go to the same high school? Well, you're all not the same age. So I, yeah.

I mean, there's a huge age span. I actually did not go to high school. But you went to college in like 16, didn't you? 11. Oh. Wait, deal with it. Wait, time out. You graduated at like, you graduated college at 15, right?

Yeah. Whoa, time out. I'm going to do this about me, I'm here. I did not know this about you. Wait, time out. Explain your schooling? I. And how can I be dealt?

Like, there's a delorion. It's too late. I'm about to say. We missed that. We missed the Ronan Farrell plan. Look, I don't know if it's a good idea, but it's what happened. I was super nerdy and was bored in school, and I was lucky enough to get, like, a, you know, a brochure for this Johns Hopkins program, or you can take college courses as a kid. You said John Hopkins, like, it's nothing.

Yeah, they have this thing. It's so embarrassed. It's called the Center for Talented Youth. I'm so sorry, guys. Drop it, drop it. Just own it, just own it. So anyway, I and these fellow nerds would get together and like take college courses in the summers. How old were you then?

This would have been like, you know, from age nine or ten on. So the way you get into that summer camp is you take the SAT. And so I took the SAT and I got a score where people were like, oh, okay, you should just go to college. So I just, I did. Wow. And this is at nine years old? So the SAT, you know, I took it a couple of times in that period. I was bordering.

I don't understand. So you had to retake it to get it. This is more detail than you did. But anyway, I got a, like a baller SAT score. What is it like a bunch of? I got a perfect. 60. Oh, shit.

No one is ever going to want to be my friend. No. Dude. I don't want to be your friend. No, no, no. Okay. This is what I'm telling you. You will be my only friends.

Yes, we will. No, but peep it. Peep it. All right. So, maybe I don't know if I told the. story my birth doctor or not but like he was trying to get my parents to think you know I was born in early 70s and there was like a new way of thinking and all that stuff and he was trying to get

my parents to kind of go out of their their boundary comfort zone when it came to raising me now they geared more towards entertainment and whatnot so he told them like you know when he wants to ride on the walls let him write on the walls and let him that shit right right right Anything in a plastic covered house? Let him jump on the good sofa. Right. I violated all this stuff. But that's how it became a drummer.

Okay. After a while, it was like, okay, he's destroying too much furniture. What do we do? Get him something to beat on. Get him a drum set. And then that's like a round two. But he definitely said like, make sure before the age of five, you let him just, you know, he's going to be curious about a lot of things.

Like, of course, if it's a fort to the socket, stop. Don't do that. But let him draw on the walls. Let him play in his food. So would you raise any kids you have that way? Hell no. You don't want to lose those couches. But you see, I feel because of, I've seen the result and I have cousins that were under a strict, like this restrictive lifestyle.

And I've seen the results of being too restrictive what that does once they're, teenagers and you were bellicants. Like, TV was taken away from me in my formative years. But as a result, as an adult, like, I'm totally addicted to TV. You know what I mean? So it's sort of... I actually had the same evolution on video games

where we were a no video game household and then I became like a real nerdy gamer as a result. What do you gain? What's your joints? Oh man, I've got... Are you Xbox or PS4? P. S4. I'm a PS4 guy. It's post college, I'm sure. Uh, yeah, but kind of, you know, I was so, I was so subversive that, you know, I was the kind of kid where when I was told, you can't get a Nintendo, I was like, here are all my arguments on why this is an important art form. And writers of my generation are going to be going into video games and telling important horizon expanding stories.

So you bullshit it. Yeah, but also there was some truth to that. And then I would like, you know, rig up emulators on my computer to get the super Nintendo games and the end. 64 games, like, you know, just terribly, like, hacked together versions I'd download, but so I could play them. I'm not advocating piracy and emulation here. I'm just saying it was a phase. I was like, I figured you just built your own video game.

So what do you game now? What's your game for? So, yeah, I have a PS4. I grew up on, partly as a consequence of that ban on consoles, computer games, which were allowed, which are a little more cerebral. Like, do you remember, like, missed from the 90s? It missed is my jam. And there's actually now that, similar to some of the transitions in the music industry,

there's much more of an indie scene in gaming right now because publishers have declined. Have you played that inside for PS4? Inside is a beautiful work of art. That's a crazy game. It's like Scandinavian game, I think, right? Maybe Danish. And it's like black and white. And that's a very evocative.

Yeah. Yeah. And we got to go deeper on this. We're losing the rest of the crowd. No. It's like watching the tennis game. And we're learning about Fonte. I'm like, what?

This is the side of him that I've. exposed. No, we're very much a rabbit hole show. Yeah, so I love the kind of the lineage of those mist type adventure games and other kind of artistic games that are a little mysterious and make you think. And flower, you play flower. Love flower, love journey. Um, that will, play journey. Journey's great. Okay. Yeah. Um, so what are these games? There's a game for PS4 called Soma, which you should 100% play like best writing, best story I've seen in a game. SOMA. Yep. So these are like a choose year adventure games? Now, this is like inside is just a game where you're a kid

and it just drops you in this world and you just, it's a side-scroller game. So, like, you can die. Yeah, it's like Mario. And you can just die in so many different ways. And it's these puzzles you have to figure out. But it's sort of, it's very evocative, beautiful backdrop of like a kind of an Orwellian, like,

1980s, a repressive society. So it's much more about like the experience than the puzzles. Than the actual puzzles. Yeah. Yeah, and then flower is like if PM Dawn designed a game. Say what? Flower is like where you are a pedal of a flower. It's amazing high.

Dude, you're a pedal of a flower and you play as the wind. So you have to direct the pedal to go through this garden to pick up more flowers. And the music, I don't think, I don't think, Raichu's. Yo, I didn't, but come my homies. Catch it? Yeah. Dude, it's a beautiful game and, like, on weed it's even better. I love that you're this gentle soul.

You love these, like, these gentle stoner games. I mean, but I play Doom, too, though. So I like, do. The new Doom is great. Doom is amazing. Really well done. And Last of Us. Yeah, loved The Last Us.

That's like a screenplay. For sure. I hear the new God of War is excellent. I got it. I purposely, I haven't downloaded. I haven't started it yet because I got work to do, and I know once I started this over. You and me both. Yeah.

A win is a win. A win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments and sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes,

follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends...

Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed.

I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft.

And we've got a special guest, the director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galko joins the SportsSliced podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, for wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

First of all, hats off or Afropics off to you for your, for your New Yorker piece. Thank you. What, I mean, the, what gave you the nerve or the gall or the audacity to even say, all right, I'm going to go after it? Because I would have figured that every editor or every boss of yours, would have tried to shut you down. Yeah. Maybe the guilt of the Democratic. Yeah.

Or the guilt of the Democratic Party, you know, being he was one of the biggest supporters or whatever, like that could have. Like a lot of powerful forces trying to shut it down. Yeah. And how did you manage to bob and weave your way out of that to something that actually not only stuck but worked?

I'm just so relieved and so grateful because of all those obstacles. You know, the most important answer is that these women who came forward did this incredibly brave and difficult thing. I mean, I worked with them for months, and we had so many tough conversations about the pros and the cons and the threats to their career and the threats to their physical safety. And, you know, as you know, one of the articles I wrote exposed this whole system of hiring like combat ready for massage agents. Yeah, I mean, like, there's real cloak and dagger stuff going on here. And from the beginning, you know, the women involved in the story

were warning me of that. And I knew that every single person who had told their story did it because they thought it could help protect the next woman to come along. And because they had done this incredibly difficult thing, I just wouldn't have been able to live with myself if I had allowed it to be shut down or if I had given up. The other aspect of it is by the time I got the time I got the to the decision point of like, okay, my life is falling apart. I got no more career. Like, nothing, like, this is, maybe I, you know, swung too wide on this. I couldn't go back because I really had, like, I gambled everything, you know. I'd spent a year of my life and all the opportunities I thought I had and was pursuing had gone away. And the only choice I had was to

stick with it. Did you feel like your exit at MSNBC was like, was that the end of the world? Like, when you walked out of that building with your box, or I don't know, I can always tell when someone leaves MSNBC because of certain white box that they carry outside of. It's never a happy look on their face when they carry that box.

I mean, leaving anywhere where you thought you were building a future is incredibly hard. I was at the time, not at MSNBC. I was on the Today Show, but, you know, still in the building. Sorry, just consider that one big ass. Yeah, no, it's all one news organization. You're right to consider it the same. And, you know, I'm really proud of the work

the investigative unit did. on a bunch of stories I worked on there. And yeah, you know, look, things changed as I was working on this story. So at the time at the today show, did you hear any rumblings of what was happening with Lauer at the time? I am going to have to be careful what I say in this conversation about that. You too. How about that? You're a tough interviewer.

Look, I do think that it's, you don't know, but you are. I thought I was asking soft questions like shit in the past Look I think there's a lot of valid questions out there About how all these things connect together And you know I gotta make sure that That story is told in the right way at the right time That's what I was gonna ask you because you chose well obviously this book Must have been in the works before it was yeah

Okay because there must be something in process to tell the story of your process And doing this article Yeah, I think further down the line, people are right to hammer me with questions about this, and I will make sure... So you have not officially talked about... No. You're like... Oh, I'm sorry. I just assume that once the deed was done and...

It's out. That it was like common up. No, look, I mean, they... I will say broadly, the story behind stories like this can be important because when... something this important and this dangerous stays quiet for this long, that's not an accident. And there's a lot of reasons for that. And I think, you know, now that we are grappling with the underlying allegations, and it was really important to me that the women's stories be at the center of the conversation. So I also didn't want to distract from that. But I think as we get

further and further out, you know, it will be important to really take a hard look at ourselves in the media and across our society and look at the systems that keep these sorts of things quiet. How long did you research that, the Weinstein story? Was you said it was the year? The first interview was done in January of last year. The first, you know, research and calls would have happened sort of October, November of 2016. Oh, wow. Yeah. So about a year. So your book. War my book. My long-suffering book. We're in over-paysment. When did you first start?

By the way, I love that image of you with war on peace in your lap. I snapped a picture. I'm Instagramming that. It's right here. How long was the process to... Way too long. Yeah, and you had to fly around the world a little bit too, right? Yeah, yeah, you saw.

There's all sorts of crazy exotic locations in there. It took five years, all told, to write this book. And a lot of the actual writing happened at the end. and part of that was because the Weinstein story took over my life and right at the moment where I was supposed to be in crunch mode for the book I was juggling these two giant things. Were your editors understanding like, okay,

no, no, they were not. They actually dropped the book and I had to resell it to a wonderful team at Norton, my current publisher. You serious? Oh, they are mad. When did they drop? People are mad.

A lot of people are in regret mood now, right? Yeah, because I need to know. When did they drop? Right at the, as the Weinstein story was heating up, this would have been like maybe April of last year. Yeah. Hey, let me salty. You know, there's great people over there and I'm sure they're doing fine. But it was obviously a huge blow to me personally.

And there are so many brave whistleblowers that, you know, they knew and I knew had gone on the record for this book. And I couldn't let them down either because this book is the story of, first of all, transformation in America's role in the world. that's really important to all of our safety. And second of all, of brave men and women in an unsung career who are really getting pushed out right now and denigrated and who are profoundly misunderstood and abused by politicians.

They're abused by the public. It's funny, because I was thinking to myself in reading it, because I didn't read the whole thing, but I ran through it and I was like, oh, so now I feel bad about beeping at the guys who get the park anywhere they want to with the diplomat tags. I was like, I'm going to raise in D.C.,

so I'm like, why does he get the park anywhere where he wants to do and do what he wants to. But now I get it. I'm like, okay. You know, these are men and women who turn down opportunities to make a lot more money in the private sector, who go to the most dangerous and difficult places on earth at times, move their families around every few years. And they do it because they know that their work makes the United States safer. Yeah.

I mean, they are the first line of defense against dangerous people getting into our country. They are the people responsible when you get into a crisis or, you're, you're taking hostage and you've got to get pulled out. And they're the people who hopefully, if we empower them, which we are not, broker the deals that keep our brave servicemen and women out of conflicts. You know, war should not be the first solution. Well, you said that people would think that with this current administration that we're, quote, air quote, under, that sort of the decline of diplomacy overseas and other

territories. Most of us would think that the decline is starting now, but you actually said that it was, this has been going on, like, doing the Clinton and doing the Bush, Bush won, and the Reagan administration. So there's two things going on here. A lot of the book is devoted to the crisis under the Trump administration. I mean, this is a crazy new extreme where we are literally purging the state department, just mass firings, hundreds of diplomatic posts empty. Empty, right. Can you say the number? It's like a ridiculous number. I mean, it changes all the time. So I don't want to give a number now because it'll change by the

time we, and sometimes it gets worse, not better, by the way. They get rid of more. Okay. Yeah. But it's, we're talking about, you know, major embassies without an ambassador, major offices around the state department without an assistant secretary to run that region. And it means that we're flying blind in all sorts of big challenges all around the world. I bookend War on Peace with the story of this guy, Tom Countryman, which is his real name, unbelievably. Wow. That's not his, no diploma. Yeah, that's not like a stage name. And he is indeed like a patriotic guy, you know, served in all these dangerous places for years and years. And he was the top official on arms control at the State Department. And he got fired

within days of Trump coming in. And you think about that, like at a time when we're facing down Iran and North Korea and arms control is one of our biggest challenges. We just gave the boot to our top expert on that field. So a big part of this is the Trump era. But you're right, you know, when people say this is unprecedented, that's not quite the right word because there's a lot of precedent you can look at and draw really clear lessons from. You mentioned the Clinton administration. Clinton, over the course of the 90s, cut spending on development and diplomacy by 30 percent. And we closed all sorts of embassies around the world. The embassies we had left were short-funded. We shuttered two really important government agencies, one on information, which obviously

we could use that skill set as we go up against ISIS propaganda, one on arms control. And, you know, these are lasting pieces of damage that we really felt after 9-11 when we needed diplomats more. And instead, obviously what we've seen is everything gets run through the Pentagon. Yeah. Your book is interesting because number one, I wanted to big you up because the way you kind of explain things as you go and you learn about the State Department and you learn about everybody's role, but it also becomes very scary as you really realize to dumb it down that we don't have as many friends in these countries as we used to.

And when it comes to American representation, which is kind of scary. And then it goes back to the White House who are the only ones really communicating with these outside entities, which is... So are you saying in the case of North Korea, there should have been way more... Did we ever have representation in North Korea at all? So it's not about wanting an embassy there. You know, I think everyone agrees that, like,

it wouldn't be the right thing to recognize them as a state in that way at present until they reform in a whole lot of ways. But what we have had in recent history are really concerted, efforts led by really experienced diplomats to have talks with them and other players in the region that can kind of squeeze them and exert pressure like the Chinese. So under George W. Bush, for instance, there were six-party talks led by this guy, Chris Hill, who's a career diplomat,

who's profiled in this book. And, you know, it's too simple to say that he just failed. You know, they worked really hard around the clock for a long time. They got North Korea to shut down some of its reactors for the first time. They got some concessions and some transparency. And, you know, in the end, you know, it fell through North Korea didn't follow through to the extent we wanted, but there were significant inroads made in our ability to talk to China about this. And we've just thrown that all out since then. Because Trump said he's the reason that we have, where China is talking to us. Yeah, and, you know, Trump is trumpeting a lot about the, I'm so sorry for that accidental point.

I'm so glad you saw it out about this, you know, meeting potentially leader to leader in the North Korea crisis. I just got to say, and this is addressed in the book, what all the experts who have been immersed in trying to crack the North Korea problem for years say is, time will tell what that means a meeting like that. Because North Korea is really wily. They lie all the time. And there's a real risk that we get played. If you go into a meeting leader to leader, it can be a way to legitimize them as a nuclear power. They can run around saying, hey, now we're recognized and we can have nukes. That's one of their key demands. We don't

necessarily have a long-term strategy in which to embed that meeting. And that's a problem because we no longer have a core of experts devoted to North Korea at the State Department. That was a downer forever. That's how I felt starting. That's what I put in that book. I was like, so this is not going to

have a happy ending because we're still here. It's hopeful, too. There's some hope in this book. I mean, I talk about the fact that there are still these brave men and women, doing this work in difficult places around the world. And I talk about some of the examples in recent history that suggests that if we support them, you can actually turn things around. So where do you think it's important and they are there?

Because they've been pulled out of so many places. I have one quick question. Yeah. All right. I believe that, you know, obviously in the name of pettiness, I believe the Trump administration is just setting down or firing. at will, who he pleases. What were the reasons, or at least between the Reagan and the Obama administration?

Did you see the decline of diplomacy around the world? Like, what were the reasons of, were they saying that, okay, in this particular place in Zambia or this African nation, we don't need, you know, five diplomats there? So I'm careful not to oversimplify the problem. The State Department bureaucracy is slow-moving. It's broken and outdated in a lot of ways. And, you know, part of this conversation is people saying, well, we need to cut back because we need to reform. And I think that that's not unreasonable.

You know, intelligent reform where we reshape what our diplomacy looks like is a great idea. But there's no plan. Is there a plan somewhere? There's no plan. They are cutting muscle, not fat. What's the idea plan? Well, you know, the example I would point to is, since you were asking about history, you know, during World War II, I went back and found a lot of the old headlines covering the State Department then, and they sound a whole lot like headlines about the Rex Tillerson State Department in the past year. People saying, we've got a broken state department, you know, it's not doing its job, you know, we need to throw it out the window, we need to reform it.

And what's interesting is what we did then, which is instead of throwing it out, we really reshaped it for a model. era, you know, mass communication was on the rise. We created all sorts of new offices and new priorities. We cut older offices that were now outdated. And you ended up with a period where we had the creation of, you know, NATO and the UN and the World Bank and all of these structures we still rely on. So I think you can reform it if you want to. Not in this administration, though. Well, this administration doesn't seem to want to. This is what I'm saying. It's going to be empty positions. Just emptiness. Yeah. I'm curious to get your take on what you think, the role of technology plays in kind of our decline of diplomacy just because this is the first time

I think we're just living in the era where information and misinformation just flies so fast you know I mean and so I'm curious what do you think like you know when you were talking about you know like 40 well hell not even 40 years ago like during the like Bush one I mean there was no Twitter there was no social media so now stories can break and you know it may be all the way source that maybe whatever, but it can just go so off the rails. What do you think the role that social media has played, either good or bad, like in the role of all that? It's a really good question, and it's something I talk about a lot in the book. The rise of instant communication technology has profoundly affected the role of diplomats, right? You don't need an ambassador in a

foreign land to deliver a message anymore. that that cool kind of magical responsibility that they once had of here is a letter from the United States isn't how it works anymore. And I think that that's part of what allows some of this destructive political rhetoric where there's just the constant denigration of diplomats as you know, dusty bureaucrats who don't get anything done, which I think is really unfair and short changes the important work they do. The fact that we don't need letters delivered in person anymore doesn't mean that we don't need experts who understand the most complicated crises on earth and know how to get American citizens out and protect their interests and cut deals that advance our influence.

So if we are lacking or if we're declining, and I don't know how sharp that decline is, I think I know the answer, but who is picking up the slack and who is slow to win? who's on point right now as far as... I'm glad you asked that because one of the kind of shadow that is cast over this whole story in the book is that China is doing the opposite thing right now.

And, you know, I don't mean to hold up China as some paragon of virtue. I think it's pretty troubling if China is filling this space. But the fact is... Is it? Yes. I mean, I think there are pros and cons to Chinese leadership,

and it varies around the world. But certainly, I do think, think the United States, despite all of our flaws, is still a more sincere and ardent defender of human rights. And I do think that we want American influence, you know, in large part, despite all the ways in which we screw up and can be a malign influence, I think it is a good thing for the world if we are running things correctly. And what we're seeing right now is in important places around the world, China is investing in more and more diplomats. And I'll give you an example. You know, I was in Sudan for a while. And in Sudan, China for a long time played the role that we

kind of stereotypically think of China as playing, where they're this interloper that is totally callous about human rights, and they're extracting the oil and like aiding and abetting a genocide. And I wrote about that a lot at the time. Now China has like a regional envoy who's doing shuttle diplomacy trying to like cut a peace deal there. So they have a whole, yeah, because they, they want to ascend to a status of global leadership. And there are kids all around the world growing up with really clear signs of Chinese leadership and development, big infrastructure projects in places where we no longer

even have embassies. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of my reaction too. Better start learning Mandarin. Kind of, yeah. We got to do our roll call a Mandarin next time. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrate. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

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A group of women discover they've all dated the same... prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed.

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And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galko, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar, this is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider,

you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12. and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Let me ask you. You know, I'll say that at least, okay, I still watch Mad I'll show.

And it's sort of kind of like my lullaby. Like I got to see what, you know, just so I can sleep at night. She's great. She's so principal. Am I, am I, am I, is 2018, a pipe dream, is it,

in terms of impeachment? No, in terms of midterms, the idea of, like, do you... Oh, man, I'm not going to handicap that race. All I can say is I'm going to keep on telling stories that I hope are relevant to voters as they make informed decisions. And, you know, I've been exposing

some of these secret election season payments in my latest round of New Yorker's stories. And I think there's a lot to uncover here about the abuse of power and how powerful people can do that. distort people's perceptions during an election. And it's not my job to project whether that has any impact or to hope that it has an impact. Are you speaking of the Facebook situation or the... That's part of the whole soup of things that happened. But the last few stories I did were about

secret payments to silent stories, this practice of catch and kill, where there were, you know, stories that might have seen the light of day and didn't because of transactions that were covered up at the time seemingly on behalf of the president but it's obvious that people uh you know he wants to make that statement like i can stand on fifth avenue shoot somebody and nothing would happen to me and i'm almost thinking like oh he's absolutely right like his believers are going to believe what they believe that's what i was thinking but in a case but but but then there's a case of like shenaya twain's statement last week yeah where she said that you know as a canadian and i know Like there's, there's, the people that scare me the most.

She said she'd vote for Trump if she could. Yeah, because she felt he told the truth. Shania? You're like, that don't impress me. That's like, what? Still the one ass stowa. But the thing is, is that I believe that if she truly saw what was happening and was informed, she would know better.

But the problem is that. You guys have to get Shania on here and have that conversation. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. Oh, I'm not capable for Shania. whatsoever. But this is the person that I know. Like, I keep my television on 24-7 watching news. Now, is subsequently also bringing down my spirit as a human being, am I being less productive? Because I got to keep, I got to figure out, even when I bus in the Zara's office, who's not speaking at all right now, she can match you note for note.

I know, do we get one sound bite by the end? She literally, like... I wanted you to ask about Mike Pompeo. Okay. Okay. But why don't you ask about Mike Pompeo? What do you want to know? Sarah, what about Mike Pompeo?

I was just wondering if you think things are going to get better if he gets in there. So I would say two things. One is, here's what we know about Mike Pompeo's record in terms of his position on the issues. You know, he's extremely hawkish. He has been right there with the president. saber-rattling about dismantling the Iran deal and stepping away from a diplomatic approach, you know, the president sent him right after firing Rex Tillerson to meet with the North Koreans, you know, while he was CIA director. So he's already been sort of part of this moment

where we're seeing the work of diplomats outsourced to soldiers and spies. That said, I've continued to talk to all these whistleblowers whose story, are in war on peace and hope really springs eternal with them, you know. You mentioned in there that this is not a first time thing because Colin, they made the mistake. The Clinton, right? The Clinton administration made a mistake with Colin Powell, and they said that they made a mistake with replacing diplomacy with. I think multiple administrations realized they made a mistake on this. You know, late in the game, the Clinton administration, after his first secretary of state, Warren Christopher, sounded a whole lot like

Rex Tillerson defending these deep cuts to the department. Madeline Albright came in and was much more focused on large-scale diplomacy. During the Bush administration, you know, after the disasters of Iraq, Condoleezza Rice is on the record in this book talking about, you know, needing more diplomacy. And that's the period in which they took this run at the North Korea problem. And I talk about that as well. Often this realization comes too late. There are senior Obama administration officials saying, you know, we kind of expressing regret about the fact that they had an Afghanistan. policy that was really overtaken by celebrity generals and how they tried to course correct and get

more diplomatic views in the room later on. And you wound up with the Iran deal, the Thorn relations with Cuba, the Paris climate change accord. So if you invest in diplomacy, you can get results. You just have to have leadership. And to circle it back to Mike Pompeo, I think there's a lot of hope right now about him. There's a lot of sincere hope that he will invest in diplomacy and defend that institution and believe in the brave men and women working there, which we haven't seen so far in this administration. What's going to be the final Jenga cube that you pull that everything's going to crumble down? Oh, man. Do you feel the pressure? Because I don't want to put that on you, but I feel like you did it before. You can do it again.

Like, one of you is going to get that all the president's been, like, movie, like, not that that should be your motivation. I thought it was going to be Stormy Daniels. It's not my job to, you know, try to bring down anyone. It wasn't even my job to try to bring down Harvey Weinstein. My job was to make those survivors feel heard, which they hadn't been for a long time. And I think similarly with the reporting I've done on the Trump administration and even the stories I tell in this book, you know, my job.

is to get as close to the truth as possible and to pull back the curtain on stuff that people haven't wanted you to see. How can you... Okay, so doubling back to, because I realized I didn't clear myself up with Sinai so you can cross your arms. You guys have beef now about Shania.

But listen, my point was that I feel as though there are people who... Their whole thing is I just can't. I can't watch the news. It kills me inside. And I understand, you know, it's so overwhelmed. overwhelming to deal with your life and then to see what's happening in life there but it's like

i just i'm one of those people that has to keep an eye even though i'm not totally immersed in it and you know i'm yeah but you care yeah and i don't feel as though people don't care but i do feel that there are a set of people that because it won't affect them easily as it will others you know Like, I have friends and family that are already affected by the DACA situation. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That shit affects me. But how do you reach people that are indifferent to watching the news that, you know,

if I can get through a day where I don't have to explain to someone and filter it and explain in their language that they understand what's going on? Or sometimes I go in Zeros room like, all right, what are I? that hour where I'm shooting Fallon, six o'clock, I'm using my first thing as, all right, what happened?

You know, and based on her face, some day she's crying because some shit happened or, you know, it's, how do you, how do you,

how do journalists get their groove back where, you know, where you're counterattacking propaganda television like Fox, can I call them that? I think that's,

is there one person at Fox in respect? Yeah, there are, There are individual people at Fox, I respect, but I do think that... Who are they? Who's the two people that, like, know, look, I think Shep Smith does fairly straight coverage. I actually like Shep.

Yeah, yeah, you know, he's okay. And I think there are people like, you know, I don't want to endorse everything. Each of these people does wholesale, but like Brett Baer does some sort of more, I think, you know, on the straight and narrow news kind of stuff. But, but yes, I think overall, you know, that is an organization. with some very clear ties to the people they're covering, and they do a lot of damage to the conversation. I do think that. But how come the world just can't,

not the world, or Americans can't see that? Well, so to your first point, I think you've highlighted one of the most important and difficult challenges we have as a society, and as reporters, too. Apathy is, in a lot of ways, the enemy of progress. And it's one of the toughest nuts to crack. I totally get with, get and empathize with the fact that people despair when they watch the news and they just want to turn away.

It's overwhelming too. People get overwhelmed. Yeah. And I do think that the mainstream media deserve some blame for the way the 24-hour news cycle. It never goes off. Yeah. You have to turn it off. Like you have to set your own filter.

It's alienated people. And it's the same story sometimes. Not the same stories, but yes, the same stories. So I think we're part of it. the problem is systemic where there is a broken news system where the business model is built around re-reading the same headline over and over again and not offering anything new to the conversation or doing the other thing that's cheap and easy which is put people in a room and have them shout at each other yeah just talking to it's all of which i think has conspired to make people tune out

and that's really dangerous because we need people who like all of you sitting here really profoundly care and are going to be engaged and cry if the news cycle dictates you that and want to stand up and do something. We all need that. And so, you know, I hope in the small part that I do to tell stories, I'm doing it in a way where people know it's not part of just hammering them over the head with the same old headlines. It's not part of the partisan echo chamber. You know, it's really giving them some facts that maybe they can be armed with as they make decisions. Has anyone approached you yet about doing movies about any of yourself? like either One Piece or your Weinstein stuff

because I think that's going to be when you talk about just how you reach people Yeah getting over the avenue because I'm one of those people I'm straight up like yo all the Trump's up I'm just like yo just I'm just waiting for Jerry Brooke Harmon to make the movie And I will know When you're like Albert have it?

Who's your casting choice? Who you cast? Who you cast for Trump? Alec Baldwin. That's just keep your party going on. Yeah man like I'm just waiting because it's just so much information and you don't know what's a lie, what's true.

So I would probably fall into one of the category. I'm not just totally apathetic. You know, I stay up to some degree, but certainly it's a point where you kind of have to shut down. I was like, look, I got kids to raise. I got to do my thing. So I can't be inundated with it all the time. But I was curious if anyone has, because all this stuff, I mean, just the past couple of years of your life is prime ready for.

There's some crazy stories there. Look, I have a lot of respect for storytelling in different mediums and the power to expand people's horizons with those stories. If you can't give it up, I mean, don't fuck up the bad. I understand. I think you're right. I think that, you know, these stories can reach different audiences if you tell them

right, whether it's in, you know, a careful piece of investigative reporting or a movie or a book or a song. I mean, there's a lot of ways to move people and help them understand important issues we all grapple with. Yeah, because I thought about you before I did. Right. No, for real. No, because before we in kind of my prepping for this, I watched

the paternal. Have you watched the joint on HBO? The paternity. Oh, I haven't. Is it good? Yeah, it is good. It is good. But it's more so about like the investigation and how I should, I should be watching that as an HBO guy. I've got I've got an HBO deal starting soon. So I'll, you'll be seeing it. Breaking news. Breaking news.

Exclusive. You're on in there. I'm sorry. So crazy right now. But now, I think you'll be. No, he deserves it. Yes. I got a sample.

Yes. You got one. Yeah. So I'll be, you know, I'll be turning some of these stories into documentaries. And, you know, I'll be back on TV. And I think part of that is because you're right. There's different ways to get to people and they're all important. Is there something bubbling under that you're working on?

Yes. Yo, you said that. You know that was going to be. Wait. You're like, nope, done. I'm going to know the exclamation point at the end of the S. Okay. So when you have a scoop that you know that you have,

who's your trusted circle who is your because I don't you know and I don't know the doggy dog world of journalism or whatnot but when you know you have some shit that no one else has so I write for the New Yorker and I am really happy to say that after all of the challenges of the past year you know I landed in a place where there's just some of the best damn journalists on earth supporting me and David Remnick, who runs the New Yorker, who you should totally have on.

I want to hear him in a roll call. He's a damn hero. That guy is cool as hell and rescued the Weinstein story and stood by it when it was under attack. And, you know, as I work on upcoming stories, I got a great circle of editors that are circle of trust there and fact checkers as we get closer

to the finish line on each story. And it's a wonderful institution. Wow. People should subscribe. I mean, can you keep it real? How real, are the you know i always keep it real but how real are the threats like is it barbershop talk or is it some real it's some it's some real shit unfortunately but i mean like because you even

like do you do you do you do i did i did move out of my place at the end mean you know so when you're in a parking lot alone is it like over the shoulder is it yeah i mean it it it comes and goes uh you know i think there are periods where i am working on a specific story where it gets very, very adversarial where that is very much the vibe of like, okay, I may be being followed, what precautions do I need to take? Because that National Enquirer, that

was a big deal. Like, I mean, if Stormy's looking over her shoulder, you're definitely looking over yours when you say it's love child. And there was a story in the New York Times last night about some of the connections between those allegations of intimidation and, you know, people that were getting hired and this is all stuff

that will continue to come to life. But yeah, the answer is it's real. Well, I'm just saying that in the 60s, they handled it a certain way. Whereas I feel as though, because there's cameras everywhere, it's hard to execute that sort of, you know. I hope you're right. I mean, I hope you're right that it's harder for people to,

you know, attack other people because of the surveillance. Yeah, well. Plus, this ain't House of Cars for real. Like, Ronan, can't anybody just, I just can't see it? No, I think it is. It is. It is. I will say, you know, without talking about the specifics of stuff I've reported on, I, in general terms, I have been startled at how close it is to fiction and how, you know,

kind of cloak and dagger tactics that I didn't think existed in the real world really are part of the tool set deployed by powerful people when they're on a rampage trying to stop something from coming out. But almost, the thing that I marvel at the most is that, I don't think that this current administration is truly aware of the power of how technology works. Like I feel like they're so old school, 70s, 80s old school, you know, just keep it between us. Not knowing that we're going to find out the information anyway. I mean, it's this weird dichotomy, right? Because Trump is also like the king of Twitter and like late night tweets and early morning tweets and tweets with typos. So, I mean, it's just so obvious that he comes from the school of, if you say something,

enough, they'll believe it. They'll believe it. Like, I can, yeah, for sure. You know, a whitewash when it's so obvious and transparent. Yeah. That I guess this leads me to my last question, which is, do you have hope for 2018? And if you do, uh, what? do you project we'll have? I guess to the extent that I engage with electoral politics at all,

it's just wanting to tell stories that arm people with as much useful and accurate information as possible. You know, I truly, that's not a cop-out. I just, I don't think in those terms. I really just think in terms of what's the most important story I can go after. And I hope, I think that telling the truth is good for society as a whole. And I hope that that is a lot. And I hope that that is also helpful for the electorate. So you're not going on record with... He's not... He said it...

It's not the world I'm in, you know? I'm not in the world of calls. Tell the truth. As a girl. You got to play, man. But what's funny is, you mentioned Madeline Albright and I was also thinking about... What do you think about Madeline Aubright and people like James Comey, like writing these books? I mean, in the season of Warren Peace coming,

your book coming out as well. Yeah, Madeline Albright is in my book. She was wonderfully candid, you know, and has a great history of... of public service and is obviously very frank, both in War on Peace and her own book, Fascism. A warning, it's subtitled. And, you know, she's also, she's a, you know, I don't say this in a disparaging way,

but a partisan so she can talk more freely about. So then James Comey. James Comey, it's much more, I mean, you know, obviously he's like dodging and weaving bullets and it's a whole careful process anytime you have a government agency reviewing your book. And, yeah, I think it was almost inevitable that it was going to be a minefield for him to do a press store for that book.

So the wrong time? I don't know. I don't know. It's not for me to say. I honestly, I also haven't read the book, so I wouldn't want to say it's the wrong time for it to come out. Maybe it's the right time. I don't know. But, you know, I think he's definitely trying to navigate those potholes. Wow, you are super disapproving. She's got this look on her face like, mm-mm. No, no, I'm happy that he came out. But again, it kind of goes back to what Amir said. at the end of the day, like, no matter who comes out, there's a certain population or certain

people that they're going to pick their own facts. They don't see it. Oh, yeah. For sure. They'll believe whoever is wearing a tie says it's true. Because, yeah, I was all hyped about the book, but then I realized I'm like, I'm hyped with the same people again. Well, this is one of the problems that we have to deal with in terms of the media landscape

where the president was clearly able to exploit, you know, both through these catch-and-kill operations via the Inquirer and also the general co-opting of a tabloid media outlet that runs constant headlines that are, you know, pro-Trump and anti-Hillary Clinton. It's amazing. Well, because it interfaces with that audience that you're talking about that's not necessarily part of the conversations you're in, but they are seeing those magazine covers on the checkout line. So there's an interesting, you know, I'm not a media reporter, but there's an interesting

media narrative here, which is this split nation of we're all in our own. partisan bubbles. We go on Facebook and Twitter and it's algorithmically curated. So you only see views you agree with. It's an echo channel. Right. And then for the people who don't watch the news, you know, there's this whole other parallel reality of National Inquirer covers and the checkout line at the supermarket.

And none of these groups are talking to each other. And that's a real problem. That's, you know, bigger than anything I am able to solve right now. That's weird to me that National Enquirer is still a thing. Oh my God, yes. I mean, it's not in terms of. of the media conversation, but it is in terms of...

The grocery store? Yeah, like, the most common denominator. I'm not saying I've been to a grocery store a few times, but... Oh, shit. Motherfuckers, they don't have it at Whole Foods. I'm just saying. Stop now. There you go.

There you go. That 1% You know, one percent or like, what the last time you've been shot? The people at Whole Foods are the people in your conversation. They're not the people who need convincing. Right. Again, that's what I'm saying. Some of the people are out of what.

the news. Like, I work with a lot of, I don't know, I think it's, I think it's almost dangerous on the whole food side of things because again, I know and I work with a lot of people who, you know, they can afford to turn the other way and not look, you know. And that disappoints me. That that hurts me more. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I agree. I ain't nothing like it. Yeah. I hope everyone with the power to raise their voice is doing so in an informed way. That's all. This is the apathy that we've been hitting on again and again

is a really dangerous and disappointing thing. People got to care. Yeah, and you made us, not to go back to the book, but Warren Peace made us care about diplomacy because, again, I wasn't even thinking about it. Thank you. I hope so. I think the brave men and women doing this work

deserve that. Thanks, guys. Well, thank you. I appreciate you for coming. See you guys soon. Yo, can we do the whole? The whole title is War on Peace, the End of Diplomacy,

and the decline of the American influence. Pow-wow. Wow. That's a heavy words, ladies and gentlemen. I know. It's scary. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Sugar Steve,

Zara Zalman. A fake Bill. A fake Bill. And Pontigolo. Say Boss Bill, too, because he thinks he always said we forget about it. And Boss Bill. Of course, we deal with this awful.

His collection of green tea Kit Katz is last as hell. The worst. Sorry, Kit Kat. That was a bad idea. Anyway, this is Kest Love. You were listening to Kest Love Supreme and be safe everybody. Thank you. See you on the next.

Kirst Love Supreme is a production of I-Heart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from I-Hart Radio, visit the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me.

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The director of the NFL's East-West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands.

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