The Questlove Show - QLS Classic: Sam Pollard

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

This week's Questlove Supreme guest is known for producing, editing and directing some of the most impactful movies of our time both scripted and unscripted. From Eyes on the Prize to Style Wars,��several Spike Lee movies in between, numerous documentaries including his current project, MLK/FBI and most importantly to this podcast Hookers at the Point, Sam has touched it all. Listen as Quest and Team Supreme dive into the life and times of Sam Pollard. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange, modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

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From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern.

Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Quest Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. Supreme. I'm here with Quest Love. And we have Team Supreme with us. Uh, yeah. Hello. How are you today? I am doing well, sir. How are you? I'm great. Is that a new microphone? No, man. It's like every day, every time we do the show, you look at me more. Notice something new. Yeah. It's not new, though. It's like we're meeting for the first time. Exactly. Just look at me. I'm here. It's like we didn't know each other since we were 13.

Don't start that. Uh, Sugar Steve, how you doing, man? I'm doing great. Nice to see you, Amir, nice to see you, Team. That sounds like a deflection. How you really do you? I'm a mess. Tell us true, Steve. We're all a mess.

All right. Just Steve. Just going to rename you, Steve. Sugar's a high. Yeah. Sugar, sugars, double sugar, Steve. Can we start calling glucose, Steve? You cannot do this on my watch, man.

I'm not. Because I'm going to. It's all right. I'm thank you for your concern. I'm going cold turkey on raw cookie dough. I'm going to be fine. You are too old to be eating that. That's crazy.

Oh, my God. I'm done with all that. I'm done with it. All right, Steve. I'm now going to implement some sugarless snacks in your diet. Thank you. Thank you. If it works for me, it'll work for you.

Bill, how's life? Everything's good. I can't complain. Fonticelo. I'm cooling, man. I'm cool, man. Everything's cool over here. We're just chilling.

Everybody's, uh, we stand low, staying healthy. We're good. That's good. All right. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I will say probably during the pandemic, not only for me, I will probably speak for the team. We probably watched or revisited more content from film and TV in the pandemic than we normally have. And I will personally say that I have a new appreciation for the teams that make film.

It's not just about the director or just about a particular actor or actress that you like. You have to consider the producer, the cinematographer, the lighting director. and most importantly, the editing of the film. And so I will say that, as far as our guest is concerned, started out his assent into the professional career filmmaking as an editor. First of all, in the groundbreaking, what I call one of the first hip-hop films, style wars, not to mention as editor for some of my favorite Spikely films like Moe Better Blues, Junk Feaver, Juice.

clockers, girls six, his documentaries for little girls are both both of the what I would call the New Orleans

documentaries for the levees not to mention also I didn't realize hookers on the point I didn't realize that wow

you on the stroll holes on a roll yes the game change but the name remains the same

me can't. She's so damned. Oh my God, did you like memorize this film? Dude. You don't understand, bro. Me and my homies used to watch because this is like I'm in like fucking high school, right?

So me and my homies would watch Hookers at the point and then you come to school the next day and know all the, we'd be saying all the lines in class and shit. I would like to say that Hookers at the point transcends all things. I also watch them at the moment. Because they went to tell my friends about who's his point, like in a different way, but I definitely watch Hookers at the point. This makes it official that Bill and Fontico are the same person.

Absolutely. Oh, God. The same music. All day. Guys, guys, guys, hang on. Not to mention his powerful Shirley Chisholm. Yes, thank you, Amir. And his forays into directing documentaries.

Yes. Not to, eyes on the prize, which I, especially in light of a black Messiah and Jesus, Jesus in the Black Messiah movie, him directing the Eyes on the Prize film, too, I'm sorry, eyes on the prize too, of which the footage of that film was used in that particular film. but there's also the Mr. Soul documentary and his latest MLK FBI, which weighs heavily into, explores the, we can say the harassment and the monitoring of the Jayhacker Hoover-led Bureau into the life and kind of the affairs of Martin Luther King Jr. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to Questleaf Supreme Sam Paul. Thank you, man. My pleasure.

Okay, now back to Hookers on the point. Oh, my God. Yes. What happened to Pierre? Be classiest intro ever for you, sir, I'm sure. Terrible. You've been out of that fucking, I ain't been fucking. Oh, yeah, more.

I know the whole, I don't know. You can memorize it, man. Brent Owens. Yeah, this is scary to me. Yeah, man. You could have a stage reading. Wow, man. You had the tone and everything down.

Wow. It made an impact. So how's it going right now? How are you doing? I'm good, man. I'm pretty good. You know, I'm working on a new film about Arthur Ash. Wow.

Yay, yes. I'm hoping to finish that by June and, you know, developing some other stuff. Yeah, I'll let our, I'll let our listeners know that you and I are actually partnering up for hopefully, you know, in the near future, we'll have the definitive film. about the Negro League. Right. Nice. You and I've been pounding the pavement together. Yes, yeah.

Pitching the various companies and whatnot. So that's very exciting for me. I'll ask. As I said at the top, I didn't realize how important or how instrumental editors are to a film. You know, a lot of the times, like people that aren't, you know, film buffes or whatnot. not, they just tend to think that the director has complete control of everything, the screenwriting, the everything. But, you know, almost feels as though the editor has the hardest job of setting the tone.

So I'll ask you, first of all, as an editor, the general rule that I've been taught is that once a film is done, you're basically to hand your entire footage to your editor and kind of sight unseen, just let them do their thing and not mic or minors. Is that necessarily true? Or like, what is the true job of an editor? Well, I would say this. I would say in the fiction world, you know, when you're doing editing a fiction film, you're given a script and, you know, and everything that they shoot in that script,

you basically know exactly how to put together. Now it can change when you're sitting down editing sequences together. But usually most directors leave you alone with a fiction film that sort of put together what we call the first rough cut, you know. And then they come in and they give reactions to everything, you cutouts for changes and stuff. So that becomes a director's cut. You know, so that's how it works in fiction film.

In the documentary world, the thing that, one of the reasons I became such a lover of documentaries is because as an editor, specifically what you were speaking to, Amir, many times when I was beginning to edit a documentary, the director would come in with lots of footage and say, I have this great idea to tell this story about hip-hop and breakdancing and rap music. And I'm not quite sure of the order, but here's the footage. And then they walk away and they give you, you know, give me four, five, six months, seven months of times to create the sequences.

You know, and you're basically trying to, in some ways, as the editor, read the director's mind, to get a sense of what the director's looking for as you're shaping the sequences. Now, sometimes in the documentary, his director comes in, or he calls in, and he wants to see sequence. is to see where you're going, before we put the whole thing together. And you show it to him or her, and they react to it, and you make changes. But really, in the terms of the documentary,

it's really the editor's media. The editor becomes, with the documentary, much more so than with the features, they become sort of the surrogate directors, because they're shaping the story arc, they're shaping the tone, the emotional tone. They're shaping the sort of the uppers and downs of the film as it unfolds.

So, you know, as a young editor, that's what I loved. I mean, I was pretty shy back then, so the idea of being a director didn't entice me. It was the idea that I had all this footage. And, you know, the big thing about editing documentaries is that you can hit a home run, you can hit a ball that just a pop out and you could completely fail. And, you know, that's the responsibility that's a documentary that you have to take on, and understanding that sometimes a director will walk in and say to you if they see your first cut, ah, Sam, this is exactly what I was thinking about.

This is my vision of the film. You found my vision. Or they can walk in into the area room and they'll say, after they look at your cut, they'll say, oh, Sam, that's terrible. You didn't understand anything I was trying to do with this footage. We got to have to start all over again. I've been on both sides of those poles.

Yikes. When I was young, I would be like, oh my God, I'm terrible. Nobody loves me. It doesn't work. As I've gotten older, that's part of the process. You realize that's part of the process. You're never going to make it right the first time. That's why it's called re-editing and re-editing.

I mean, you listed the films I've edited for Spike. And even on the feature films, I never made a cut that Spike completely said, oh, it's 100% work. Oh, Sam, no change. It just doesn't work that way. There's always going to be changes. Has there ever been a time where in your editing career, where, you know, like you said,

director comes to you and says, hey, I want to tell this story about breakdancing and hip hop or whatever. And so they give you all this footage, but then during your editing, you kind of start putting together and you see, I know this is what he thinks this is about, but I think there's a bigger story

that can be told that maybe he's missing or maybe now don't I have all these pieces together. He may think that it's about, you know, just hip hop and break dancing, but there is probably a deeper narrative that is starting to evolve as I put this together. Has that ever happened?

How much leeway are you given? All the time. That happens all the time. And as an editor, as a creative editor, you have to be open to the idea of seeing the story in a different way and taking on that responsibility. I'm going to, you say, you say to yourself, should I show it to the director this way because I think it's worked? Or should I say, well, I'm not sure it works.

Let me show it to the way he asked me to do it. I always had the tendency to show it to them the way I thought it would work better. You know, and that's part. the gamble. Sometimes you show it to them and they say, yeah. Sometimes you shift them and they say, no. That's how it works. I just wonder for MLK FBI, was it the decision to not show the people who were commentating's face? Was that a Sam decision or was that just like something that you had to establish? Because I was noticing and that was like a big difference in a lot of the documentaries that I see these days. In that case, that was a Sam decision before we even shot. I had said to

the producer, Ben Hedeen, that I didn't want anybody on camera. I wanted to all be voiceover, because I had seen a film that Amir was involved in. He did the music for it, Black Power Mixape. You know, and they had no voice, they had nobody on camera in that film. I remember that. So when I got to do this one, I said, we don't show anybody on camera. We're going to do it all voiceover. And, you know, that was a gamble, but I was willing to take it, you know.

What was the artistic kind of choice? What drove that decision? You know, I felt that this particular film, I wanted people who were either close confidence with Dr. King or who were stories who could talk about the mythology, the building, growing mythology, the FBI. And I just felt like I wanted people to not see people on camera. I just wanted them to be immersed in the footage and hear the voiceover. That's what it is.

What happens when you put people on camera, sometimes it can break the emotional momentum of the footage, you know. So I felt like, no, keep them off camera, keep the footage, keep the archival footage, front and centers that people will engage. Now, as you saw in the epilogue, we did show the faces when they sort of wrapped up about what they thought about the tape being released in 2027. Now, I would say that wasn't my idea. I thought the epilogue should be all voiceover, too, but the editor, this was Laura

Tomicely, she had the idea we should put them on camera. So when I saw the cut and she put them on camera, I said, wow, I wish I could take credit for this machine. Yeah, because it was a payoff. It was like, you know. It was a great emotional payoff. Yeah. Yeah. I fell down my own rabbit hole and just happened to click on Black Power mixtape.

So apparently I won a Swedish Oscar. Do you know that she did? I need no. They had Oscars. I'm like, I won. Apparently, I won. I won a gold gold bagaage award. Wow.

Yeah, I'm going to have to, yeah, this is the second time I found out I won something and wasn't told. Oh, this very web, this very podcast won a Webby and we weren't told. There's a history of that, people. Most left Supreme, we win an awards and don't even know it. Trying to keep us down the man, you know about that, Sam. Keep it as simple. Sam, what brought you to the film world or passion? I'll say that mostly, like, from my point of view, or my observation, people easily jump into music, people easily jump into sports.

But I rarely hear of people successfully having a passion for film and jumping into that world and, like, making a, a, a living and having a fruitful career in it. So what started yours? Well, here I was a young man who grew up in East Harlem. I was going to Beru College with majoring in marketing. I was in my junior year. And when day I looked around and I saw myself being miserable taking all these marketing and statistics courses. And I said, Jesus, I got to find some after-school activity to do. I just, I can't handle this. So I walked across the street to the, to the counselor's office. I saw my counselor this wonderful African-American lady, and I said I was looking for an after-school internship. And she said, well, what are your interests?

And I said, one of the things I really loved growing up in my teens, I loved watching all these old Hollywood movies. You know, I watched all those Warner Brothers and MGM and Columbia pictures and RKO movies, RKO studio movies, and I love them. So she said there was a PBS station in New York City, WNET, in 1968, after Dr. King's assassination, this felt it was important to get more people of color behind the scenes, shooting, editing, taking sound, producing. And she said they had a one-year workshop every year from 68. This was 1971.

And they had, on Tuesday nights, they would have these classes from six to ten where professionals, professional editors, professional cinematographers, professional sounds, people, professionals, producers, would come in and teach you about the process of making television and films. And then on the weekends, you would go out with your crew, a group of people. There was like 15 of us. They would pair us off.

We'd go out and shoot little films. Then we'd go into, come back to an editing space and we'd learn how to edit these films together. So when she first proposed that to me, I said, my response to her was, well, I like watching movies, but I don't really care about how to make them. You know, I don't care. But she was very persuasive. She got me to have an interview. And I got accepted to this program.

And I did that for one year. And the thing that I got attracted to wasn't a shooting, wasn't the producing, wasn't the sound mixing. It was the editing. I could be in a dark room. By yourself. Nobody could see me make mistakes. If I made a mistake, I could undo the footage and splice it back together because we were cutting on film. And at the end of that workshop, I said I was interested in.

They said they tried to find you a job. And I said, I was interested in finding a job in editing. And one day I was working the summer of 72, I was working at a marketing firm on 30 Ferretton Park Avenue. And my mother called me and said that this production manager had called and said they were looking to interview me to be an apprentice editor on a low-budget feature film called Gondjean Hetz, directed by Bill Gunn.

Bill, yeah, Bill Gunn, yeah. Bill Gunn. And most of the crew was African-American, but the editor was this Jewish guy. The sister was this young white girl from Kentucky. So I went and had an interview with this editor. And I got hired in 1972. My first job.

And then Spike, he remade that is the sweet blood of Jesus. That's right. He did it. He did that sweet blood of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Well, you mentioned W, NET earlier.

Did you, were you interning there? just they had the workshop there the workshop was part of an AT you know so did you have any interaction with um like the well you directed Mr. Soul but the original soul

show like did you work at all? No, and didn't work on it at all. It was you know it had been canceled by the time I got into that program so it was 69 to 72 so by the time I left the program had been canceled I used to watch it all the time you know I used to watch it all the time.

Well, they had like a lot of black productions. I remember a show called Reebok or? That was, Reeveop was not in New York. It was in Massachusetts. Oh, okay. But in New York, they had Black Journal. They had Missed Bay had Soul. They had Like It Is Gil Noble on ABC.

Bill Grease was the producer in Seoul. And some of the first African producers who worked for Black Journalists like Tony Baton and St. Clair Bone, you know, who I used to who became one of my mentors. later in my career. That's what I wanted to know. Like, who were your contemporaries at least starting out with you at the same time?

Like, I know that what's his name? Director. Ernest Diggerson? No. What's her name's father? Oh, God, that's... Oh, Stan Lathan? Stan Lathen.

What's her name's father? Stan was already directing at Seoul in Black Channel. By the time I got to the business, Sam, Stan was But what I wanted to know was like, was there like a crew of you as young black upstarts trying to get into film? Or was it just all of you independently kind of treading?

The program I was in was like 15 of us. We're all African American. And some of us, you know, got into the business. Some people went to CVS. Some people went to ABC. Some people freelance like I did. That was the crew I was with, you know. And then after I did the six months as an apprentice editor on Gajon Hess,

that same editor who hired me then made me his assistant. And I was his assistant for three years from 22, 23, 24, 25 years old. George Bowers? No, no. I met George right around 75. I sort of was looking for a job and I went to this editing room. And George Bowers was editing the film called Countdown of Cassini, directed by Assy. Davis with Ruby D and Greg Morris from Mission Impossible.

George turned me on to doing a little film. He got me hired to do a little film about the first three black mayors of major cities, Tom Bradley of Los Angeles, a Coleman, Coleman Young of Detroit, and Mayor Jackson of Atlanta. And it was being directed by David Parks, Gordon Parks' son. Wow. Oh, wow. Okay. And I ended at that when I was like 20.

six years old. And then George hired me to edit some films for him. And then he moved out to California to direct some low budget features that in 1980, I went out to L.A. and edited it for him, a film. I don't know if you remember this film, Body and Soul with Leon Isaac

Kennedy. Yes. I know this film. I ended a back film in 1980. Yeah, I know this film. Yeah, I was at the time in the 70s, did you, like, what was your, kind of your, what in your mind would have been your end game or your, your goal to get to at that time when you were sort of finding your way in the early 70s? My end game was, I had this dream of becoming a big time feature film editor.

You know, I wanted to edit future films. That was the big time. That was the goal, you know, 1970, 97, 78, 78. I was adding docs, but I wanted to be a big-time feature. I had it. And George, let me edit Body and Seoul. And then I went back to New York and I was adding more docs. And then George did this film in 1984 with a young Johnny Depp called Private Resort that I edited in California.

You know in that film too, man? I don't remember that one. I've never heard of that one. It feels like one of those films that would come on Prism or Showtime. You have to see. Yeah, that's my. It was on Showtime. Oh, you got to see?

That's funny. Yeah, absolutely. And then I came back to New York with some other films, and then I got hired by Henry Hampton in 87 to work on Eyes 2. And I was working on Ice 2 for like a year shooting and my first time producing. And then one day I was living in the back bay section of Boston. And my son, who was 10 years old at the time, the phone rang. He picked it up.

And he said, Dad, it's Spike Lee. And I had just seen you do the right thing in the movies. And I said, Jason, what are you messing with me for him? That Spike Lee didn't call me. He's not calling me. He said, no, Dad, Spike Lee. So I got on the phone. And sure enough, it was Spike.

And a buddy of mine who was his production manager on Do the Right Thing, had recommended me to Spike to cut no better blues. Okay. And I turned him down. Wait, what? Wow. I turned him down my first time. Because I was still in the middle of eyes on the prize, too.

So I said, Spike, I'm busy. Thanks for the call, but I have to say no. And then St. Clair-Borne had done a documentary about do the right thing called making due to right thing. And I had worked for St. in the early 80s, cutting two or three films. And then St. recommended me to Spike. And about six weeks later, Spike called me again, asked me again to do no better. And this time, I said, well, he said, let's meet up.

and we were both going up to the vineyard to Oak Bluffs and separately. And we met up at Oak Bluffs. We went to a little coffee shop. We spent a half hour in that coffee shop. And I basically talked myself with taking the job. But he didn't talk much. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of. mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong.

Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you, will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform. became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out. on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it.

Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you know. I mean, at this point,

this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring, inconsistened. Consistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct?

I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Alespe and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, well, you said that, and, you know, you wanted to.

concentrate on your your one project and you said the word no which i clearly don't know the meaning of that word how many projects can you realistically juggle okay i'll rephrase that how many projects should you juggle any calendar year if you are an editor you can't you can't do but maybe one or two so if you're actively working on a project it's it's very hard if you're actually physically editing, it's very hard to do another film. Unless, you know, listen, when I was a young man, I would do two films, edit two films. I would edit probably somebody's film all day and a day.

That'd be my prime time job, and I'd come home. I remember working in Washington on the series called Smithsonian World. And I would edit all day from like nine to six. I'd go home and have some dinner in Saint. I was doing a film for St. Rose dramatic film for St. I would edit for a saint film. I would edit my apartment on the steam back from like seven till midnight.

So yeah, I would edit two films, you know. That's when I was a young man. Yeah, we don't do that type of shit no more. When it switched over to digital, did that help at all? I could probably do three. Oh, shit. I didn't sleep as much, you know. But it's very hard when you're editing.

You know, it's easier to multitask when you're producing. and directing somebody else's doing. You can do more than one showing when you're producing directing, because you know, you know, this. I mean, you got a team. Right. You know, you got other social producers, you've got archival producers,

you've got editors, so you don't have to do everything yourself. You're not sitting there at the machine editing. Actually, Bill brought up a point that I didn't think about, at least for musicians, I feel like a lot of us made the full, like the full jump into Pro Tools are like around like 90, 92, 93 and full-fledged like in mid to late 90s. But for the film world, when did that jump, when did that jump or that paradigm shift

occurred like from digital editing to? Around 94, 95. Yeah, I cut my last film. I cut the last piece on film for Spike in 96th. was girl six. Oh wow. Okay. That was done on film.

That was done on film. Then after Girl Six, I never did anything else on film for fun. I mean, for little girls was digital. You know, bamboozle was digital. Everything after that was digital. How hard is that adjustment in learning new language, learning, like, programs? We've got to steal all my questions all the time on every show. Sugar Steve wants to know how hard is it to

Steve, ask a question. I'm sorry. Well, I just, yeah, what was the transition like for you? Was it, was it exciting or frustrating? At first it was frustrating because, you know, I didn't think of myself as computer savvy, so I had to get up to speed. I'm working on the computer and stuff

and figuring out how to do things technically do. How old were you? Sorry, how old were you at that time? 45. five. So, you know, it used to be, they used to have, they used to have, you could call avid support all the time when you had questions. The first film I cut on avid, I think I was on avid support every day. You know, oh, this doesn't work.

How do I make this work? How do I do this? You know, avid support, avid support, you know. But, you know, I adjusted to it because I, you know, I didn't want to stop editing. So, you know, and I didn't want someone else to edit for me. So I learned how to do it digitally. Did you find that? you were able to be more creative with digital

or than you were with film as an editor? The big advantage to editing digitally is that, you know, when you used to edit film, you want to recut a sequence a different way and save the old sequence, you'd have to either make a dupe of the old sequence and then unsplice all the shots to rebuild it another way. Digital, you can do it in one way

and then you can just do another version and you keep the other one, you know? And, you know, that to me was like a great sort of plus. Ah, I can see three versions of my cut. Now, the issue of the challenge is, is if you sort of don't make a decision, then you say you've got to see six versions of your cut. But then you can't make a decision. So you got to be mindful of how many cuts you want to see before you say,

okay, this is the one. You know, maybe you make it so real adjustment. As far as the quality is concerned, I know that as a musician, even though I do use digital technology, I'm pretty much using that digital technology to make it sound like I'm doing analog. Trying to make it sound as cheap and whatever. Like are you the type of editor or do editors in general

still try to, I don't know, execute that same process as far. as, you know, like we will use terms like, well, there's a warmth sound with analog that you don't get with digital and it sounds cold. And is that the same with you? Yeah. I mean, you're still trying to, you're still trying to figure out, you know, in terms of your aesthetic, how to make it still feel like you're making a movie and you're not trying to do a commercial. You know, so you're crafting it in a certain way. So you're saying this film aesthetic that I learned when it was film, I'm trying to apply that to the digital technology.

You know, I'm trying not to edit films like what I would see the fast-paced commercials or something on, you know, these music videos. I'm still trying to bring to it the storytelling, editorial storytelling techniques I learned when I was editing film, you know, and I try to still apply those, you know. And then depends on who shoots your material. I mean, a lot of documentary filmmakers still have the ability to have their camera, people shoot it. So it was 24 frames per second. You know, it looks like you're shooting it on film. You know, sometimes you want to change the textures and the coloring of it so it has a more sort of filmy texture. You think about all those things, you know, when you're shooting things. You go when you watch some of these films I've done the last few years, they all, I still try to give it a sort of an emotional film sensibility in terms of the approach, you know. That leads to my question.

Okay, you brought up bamboozle. So at the time when we shot that, with Spike. And Spike was explaining to me that, yo, we're going to shoot this all on digital. And I think that was like new to him at the time. Like the way he shot that film was

way different. So even watching him on the set and how him and was Malikas his lensman, I'm not certain. Ellen Curious shot. Oh, okay. Now, when I saw that film and it was

digital, it still had a I don't know what to call the type of film that they use when they do soap operas. But. That's what they wanted you. Is that, is that video or is that? But that's what I was asking.

Was that done on purpose? Because then, you know, you cut to, cut to She Hate Me. She Hate Me still had a kind of, you don't know if it's video. Yeah,

so it had the videos of the old television shows, texture. I don't know she's talking about. But now it's like it's borderline like it feels like it's 35 millimeter when I'm watching it. Like in the beginning when I first got my digital TV, everything felt like a soap opera, maybe like after 10 years of watching it, I've just conditioned myself to accept this is the norm. But are they still like rewriting the quality of what digital is? Well, the thing you should remember, you know, with your TVs, you know, there's settings in your TV.

Yeah. You got to set that frame rate. You got to set the frame rate so it doesn't look like digital. Oh. You go to these hotels sometimes. You're watching things and, man, that looks, you know. It looks like a play, right? Like a play.

Yeah. So proper, right. Yeah, but if you set your frame rate on your television, it won't look like that. If you said it for 24 frames per second, it won't look like 30 frames per second. Mm-hmm. I love a good lesson. Let me go get my remote. Yeah.

That's because on the new iPhones, like, on the, because like, I got the 12, I got the 12 pro max and they can, you can shoot it. you can shoot 30 frames per second video, 4K, and then you can shoot 60 frames, and the 60 frames just looks like. It's hell of real. It's just hell of it. Yeah, it's like, nah, it looks plastic. Like, it looks so real, it looked fake.

It's crazy. But the other thing, too, you know, I was wondering. The other thing, the other thing too is that with bamboozle, Spike was shooting on DV cameras, the first DV cameras, and the frame rate was 30 frames per second, but it really had a real digital feel. And what's happened with the cameras,

those DV cameras nobody uses those anymore so the technology's improved so now when you shoot with these video cameras they and if you get to if you use the right lenses you can feel like you're watching film you know it's the advanced technology so if they were well I already know that they did a uh uh uh like a criteria I know they did yeah they already did a criterion reissue so what I'm asking is if there's a remastering process It'll still look the same. So you can keep it looking just like it did in 2000? Yeah, because I just watched it too on criteria.

It looks the same. It looked just like it did when they shot it. They're not going to be able to change that look. That's the field that they got. It's not going to change. So at the time when you were doing it and watching it, was it sort of off-putting? Like, okay, is this going to be the future of movies now? Like, is everything going to look like?

Yeah, it was off-plus. You know, I picked up a video camera and made it look like this or it? Yeah, it's a little off-putting. It definitely did. But, you know, Spike was, you know, Spike did it for a couple of reasons. I mean, he had access to all these cameras. He shot with six cameras, you remember? Yeah.

He shot with lots of cameras. And also it had an impact on the budget because shooting with those cameras, he didn't spend as much money he was shooting on film. You know, he did shoot the performance stuff with, you know, with Tommy Davidson and Savion. He shot that on film, Super 16. But everything else was video. Okay, I see.

What is a question I had, just what is an example? And you don't have to name any particular movies if you don't want, but what is an example of just bad editing? Just kind of, you know, just from a fundamental standpoint. Because there's movies I watch and I'm just like, yeah, they felt like they could have cut maybe 10, 15 minutes out of that. it felt too long or whatever. What is bad editing?

I never say that anymore. You know, most films when you watch them, I watched the film the other night from 2015 with Sean Penn and Idriselva and Javier and Bardeen called Gunman. You know, and they shot all over there. They shot in South Africa. They shot in Spain, Barcelona. They shot in England.

And it's not a good film. It's not a good film at all. But it's not about the editing. It's not about the cinematography because it looks great. It's edited pretty well. The main thing to remember, it's usually not bad editing. It's usually bad scripts. Yeah, bad storytelling.

Yeah. Bad storytelling, you know, because the technology has improved to such a degree that most films look fantastic. Most films are edited well. The problem is the story sucks. So when the story sucks, it doesn't matter how well is put together. It just doesn't work. You know, so I'm, you know, I never really see that turned bad editing anymore. You know, it's really bad storytelling.

Yeah, I was just, yeah, that was curious for things to clearing it up, because I wonder, like, yeah, where is it, where does it get made? Is it the story or is it? Is it the story? Can you have a good story and then a bad cut can mess it up, you know, to what agrees it? Rare. It's rare. You could, but it's rare.

You can definitely have a bad story and the cuts won't help it. Well, I was going to say, I was going to say what happens in the case of a film like the Irishman, which clearly I see more of it as a curtain call than I do a film. Like I don't know if I would name the Irishman in my Scorsese, you know, top five. I forgot about it already. No, no, no. But the thing is, is that I enjoyed it, but I saw it more as a curtain call. like, okay, this is obviously the last time we're going to see Pacino and De Niro and Scorsese and Schoemaker, like at this level and this intensity of a gangster film.

So it's kind of like, okay, I forgave the fact that it was three hours and 45 minutes, however long it was. But in your mind, but I'm also not a film buff. So there are a lot of things that I will let slide that a lot of my film buff films friends will just start criticizing. Now, I know it might be sacrilegious or whatever, but what do you do in the, what would you do in the case of a film like the Irishman where?

Well, here's my take on the Irishman. And, you know, there's some people I know who love it who absolutely love that film. To me, to me, I feel like you, it was what I call Scorsese's sort of like the last trail. You know, he's on those, this was a scary call. So it's his swan song. He'll make more films, but in terms of the gangster milieu, he should leave it alone.

Because for me, it was too long. And I didn't buy the idea that Joe Pesci and De Niro look like young men. Oh, my God. What is that a fact? Not at all. What is this effect that doesn't work on everybody that they try? It didn't work at all. It did not.

But wasn't that also like a primitive? Like, in my mind, is that bamboozled in 2000 where it's just like this new technology that they're working on? And obviously, though, you know, it could be one of those things where in 10 years, people would visit that film and say it was a masterpiece. To me, it was too long.

And it was a curtain call. And, you know, and I don't need to see De Niro or Joe Pesci play gangsters ever again. You know. It's time. Agreed. You know, it was just, you know, and, you know, I'm a big fan of Marty's films.

You know, raging bull. and good fellows, even casino. But this one was like, yeah, casino, yeah. This one was like, okay, this is time to stop this journey, you know. I will say the thing I liked about it that I thought was interesting was that he,

whereas his old films, you know, he was kind of shown as, you know, glorifying the gangst of life with casino and goodfellas. You kind of see the shiny side of it. Yeah. But with this one, it was more, more so, for lack of a better term, it was just a blue collar gangster. Like, he wasn't rich. He wasn't, you know.

Yeah, he was just that. So I did think that that was an interesting shift, you know, tone-wise. But I agree. I don't think we need to see them play gangsters. I think they don't have nothing new to say in that way. And it was watching, you know, even the scene I remember the scene, Nero's character, beats up the kicks the gangster in the street. Dude, and he's like 80 years old. Yeah. I said, this guy's an old man. I mean, he can. barely lift his leg. But I, well, see, I thought that, like normally, especially if you watch Goodfellas and Casino, the way that Thelma does cuts and edits very intensely and things that, you know,

trademarks that Scorsese is known for, this was the first time where I didn't see that fast-paced kind of editing action that makes it more intense. So I actually thought that it was unique for them to do a slower, a slower cut kind of Scorsese gangster film that wasn't. Yeah, you could say that, or you can say that, you know, the other way to look at it, you know, is that sometimes, you know this. Sometimes when an artist gets older, their rhythms and their pace is slow down.

Mm. You know. Yeah. I thought that was on purpose. No, I did. You know, sometimes it is. But sometimes, I mean, I give you a great example. You know, you know I've been doing the Max Roach film, right?

Right. And so when you watch Max in the 40s and you listen to Max in the 40s and 50s of Quimper Brown, I mean, everything is, like that time as the time. But I tell you back to the 70s, he's still playing. You know, he's doing opera, you know, his drum also waltzes. But you can tell it's slowed down. Right. Wait, it's funny, you said that I had a moment, probably one of Max's last public performances before he passed away where they set up this drum thing between him and I.

And I feel so fuck boyish recalling this story. You know, I was like, all right, I got to, I'm going up against Max Roots, man, I better prepare. So I'd spend a month Like just working on my technique No, well the thing was I had gone up against I did this with Cindy Blackman Oh yeah

Maybe seven months before But you did it with Roy Haynes too And you learned And this was 400 no I did not battle Roy Haynes But I'm just saying that With Cindy One I was way out of shape

I was like 400 pounds whatever and like three minutes into the solo, she just dusted me. And I was like, I was on my never again join. And so I was like, all right, Max Roach, I don't care. I'm going to dust his ass. And I didn't realize that he was like, you know, his late 80s. Yeah, man.

He was just happy to be there. He's like playing a little tiki-dik-dik-dik-dik-dik. And I felt like an asshole at the end like, oh, man, I was showing out. And then I think, too, because by that point of your career, you don't really have anything left to prove. I mean, it's like, motherfucker, I'm Max Roach. Like, what, that's it. You know what I mean?

If I can play fucking spoons and bottles, you know what I mean? Right. Whatever. That's true. That's true. That's absolutely true. So, um, I want to ask you about, uh, style wars, um, for a lot of hip-hop officinados, um, especially old school cats, like between wild style and style wars.

Like, those are the first, probably the two. really authentic looks at early hip-hop. How did you talk about getting involved in that project? Was it a big deal to you that that sort of thing was greenlit to make in the first place?

Well, it was interesting. The director of Tony Silver, I was working for Victor Caneschi, the guy who trained me. He had this editing service. And we had been doing trailers. Tony Silver used to do these movie trailers, these little two, three-minute movie trailers.

And we used to edit those for Tony. Then one day, he said he had a buddy named Henry Chalkman, who would go up to the Bronx and Queens, and he would photograph all these graffiti artists doing their thing. And he decided, Tony decided to take a camera crew and start shooting. And so he just started shooting all these guys, the breakdancing, all the artists, you know, all of them. And then he came to Victor and says, I got all this footage. I don't have a lot of money.

Would you guys, I'll pay you something so we can start editing. So in like 1981, 82, we started editing that film for not a lot of money, you know, and I knew about the whole hip-hop world. You know, I knew about graffiti. But this was a deep dive.

It took us a whole year to edit that film, you know, because Tony was always changing every cut that we made. He would look at a cut. This is not right. This is not working. Which we edit. We restructure.

We edit restructure. And by, By the time that whole year was over editing that film, I was so angry and disgusted with Tony, I didn't want to see him again. What? Yeah, because we just worked so hard on it. It really worked hard.

And, you know, I never realized that the film would really take off like it did. You know, we knew that it was an audience, but we didn't realize we really had such a big splash. I mean, even today, I mean, I've had students, you know, in the last 10 years who've seen that film. I mean, even Spike said he didn't know I edited that film after I did no better blues. And he saw my credits with this.

You edited, you wanted to edit this on Star Wars? But yeah, man, you know. So you had no clue that this was something revolutionary, like not? I knew it was revolutionary, but I didn't realize it was going to have such a wide reaching impact, you know. Because when we finished it, Tony took it away and we knew it got in some festival, you know, we didn't, you know, back then when I was editing films, I didn't think much about where they were going to go so much. I was trying to make a good film and then move on. So it was one of those things.

You said, wow, it really had impact. I guess that said, for me, the film seems so guerrilla-like. Did it have, did they at least go into the project with some sort of plan or map? Or was it just like, we'll just shoot as we go along and try to create a story out of this because it wasn't like they were there to teach us the history. It was almost like a reality show, so to speak. Yeah, it was guerrilla work. I mean, sometimes they would go to these yards and they would shoot the guys doing their thing.

Sometimes they did have a little bit of a plan, like when Case went into his house, you know, when you see Case walking through the projects, walking through the playground, walks through his house, the camera, a doll, Panza. They decided to do that. Then they would have Cyrus and they said that with Case and his two buddies and had them drawing in case it's telling you his story about how he lost his arm and stuff. And then seeing those guys on the train, encased it in his guys up on the L train, you know.

And then, you know, like when we put the, we did that montage, that was sort of told me said, let's do a montage. Let's figure out a montage. So we found that song when they're saying, you know, they're doing that rap. Right. And found the music and we just created it. Some of these things were spontaneous.

Some of these things were a little set up. But most of it was guerrilla-type filmmaking. Well, when you're in that situation, situation. What happens if you're, I assume that if you're editing already, you're at least towards the end stage or the fourth quarter of the project, what if you're in a situation in which you have like way more broth than you have stew content for that particular meal? In other words, like, if you're editing and you're trying to create a sort of coherent storyline and it's not all the way there yet.

Like, do you guys go back out to shoot some more stuff? Re-shoots. Yeah, sometimes if they have the budget and you can get them to go back out, they do reshoot. Sometimes if they don't have the budget, then you've got to improvise even more to figure out how to make it coherent and work. If you have more broth and stew ingredients. You know, so the thing you always have to remember when you make it a film is always keep yourself, keep on your toes with the surprises. Never settle into the idea that, oh, this is going to be a material I have, I've got to make it work this way. You can always, with film, it's really malleable.

You can try different things all the time that come up with different ways to look at a sequence. You know, and a really good filmmaker will always be open to try different things. Because if you're not, then someone's going to take it from you and say, well, you know, there's another way because there's always another way to make it so always. Okay. Can you talk about your relationship with composers and music editors? I mean, we just recently interviewed Terence Blanchard, who I'm sure you know, and I've been working on a bunch of films lately, and I find that that relationship is always very different. As editors, some usually work with the same composers, some don't, and just figuring out that situation and how that, how that, how, to achieve the best possible thing.

And what comes first, music or not music, what are you using, yada, yada, that's what I'm interested. Usually in my process is, you know, I'll put a cut together. Like, I just finished this other film for HBO called Black Art and the absence of life about these different artists from Carrie Mae Leams to Carol Walker to Carrie James Marsh. So we put the film together and the editor said, what kind of tent music is going to use?

I said, well, there's a composer out in L.A. named Catherine Bostic. and I want to use her music. So she had done the music for my August Wilson film. So I said, let's go back and I had her send me some of that music that she had done for the August Wilson. So let's use some of your music as tent. Oh, send me some other pieces that you can use as tent. And then we laid in some of her music, some of her works and it didn't work.

But when we got to a cut where we had some of this tent music in and then I had some other music that I found that I liked that I use. I use some cold train music. I use some Billy Strayhorn. which I knew I couldn't keep because it was going to cost too much money. So then we had a music session where I said to Catherine, you know, here's the feel I'm looking for it. Here's the tonalities. You know, and I play in instruments.

I'm always talking about here's the kind of instruments I want you to try. I want flutes here. I want woodwinds here. I think you should have a bass. What's your instrument? I play flute. I used to play saxophone a little too. Yeah.

Okay. So, so, you know, and, you know, so I'm talking about the rhythm and the pace and the tonality. Now, some people, you know, some directors don't, can't use musical terms. They say, you know, I want to be strong. It's blue or black or yellow. Yeah, totally.

But I try to give them some real specifics. So I'll say, like, I'm talking, I'm talking to this composer now about this odd national. And I said, you know, man, we're trying to create that 70s feel. So go back, that 60s and 70s feel. Go back and listen to the scores that Quincy Jones did for in the heat of the night in the 1968 film called the Ports. pawnbroker. Listen to that rhythmic feel.

Listen to the rhythm and the pacing of that. I want that kind of feel for this score for this film, you know. And we're using, we're keeping some music we have in the film now when Arthash goes to South Africa. We're going to use Gilber, Gilharen's, Johannesburg.

You know, and we're going to use the temptations, how I wish it would rain, you know. So listen to those pieces to see if you can sort of instrumentally replicate that feel for some of the other sections of the film. So I mean, I try to be very specific with composers, you know. Now, the fact that you can speak music and film, that goes a long way.

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For me, of all your work with Spike Lee, I will say, and it's weird, and I hope, you know, this statement isn't hyperbolic or timely, only because the film has not been seen in 30 years. For some reason, he hasn't allowed it on streaming or whatever. But for me, at the time in 91, watching that Taj Mahal scene in Jungle Fever, to me, that was, I of all of in Spike's whole canon I don't think six minutes really hasn't gripped me or or or frighten me as much as watching that film like it wasn't over exaggerated and oftentimes you know Spike will hammer point home with over exaggeration or that sort of thing but it was just like to watch that scene in its six minute glory like to the backdrop of Stevie Wonder's living for the city and the way that was edited. and all that stuff. Could you talk about just the choreography of how

that scene came to be? I think, you know, you'd have to have Spike this, but I think he played that music when he was shooting that scene. Oh, wow. Because it was interesting to me about when I cut that scene

and Spike, he said he wanted to use living in the city, I don't think I made a music cut. You know, usually, I don't think I made a music cut. I know if you go back to you guys watch the love supreme at the end of Movedo blues i made a big music cut there you know between when the baby's yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i made a big music cut there but on but on living in the city i don't think i made a music cut what do you know you got to break that down because i'm like wait music what are you saying a music cut or music a music cut where you remove some of the music to make it

work to make it work in the scene but this one i don't think i made any music live in the city because... Well, with the exception of the occasional cut of them smoking crack across the screen, it almost felt like it was one long take, but I know that you use multiple... I use multiple visual take. I'm talking about it. I didn't make any music edits.

Yeah, the music was, it played straight through. It plays straight through, right? Yeah, usually I make a music edit because the sequence is too long. But the two films, I never made a music edit was on that one and the sequence in Girl 6 when what's your name is going to the beach and how come you don't call me anymore man and I love that fucking scene that's hard breaking love it yeah

I don't think I made a music cut you know the first catfish on film Fonte the first the first two to the fly out story going wrong no it was it was almost like Spike had and edited and shot that scene

in the pace and the rhythm that I didn't have to, I made all these individual picture cuts that were, but it was like they were just right. Everything was just right. I was like, wow, I couldn't believe it. At one point, I borderline felt like he started with Living for the City and then somehow, like, wrote the film around that. That's what I think he did. That's exactly what I think he did, I mean, I think he started with the song and he did. He did. I think he, built the scene from that because that's how it works and dress okay yeah yeah because it's just so unusual to and again living for the city is like six minutes long but i i just wondered how

with editing is concerned like how is he like because the timing has to be perfect because literally for the for those that haven't seen the film um there's a scene where uh flipper purify played by Wesley Snipes has to confront his brother for stealing the family television. The TV, yeah. Sam Jackson playing a crackhead, his older cracket but her brother, Flipper? Gator. Gator.

Gator. Gator. Matter of fact, I believe that cons had to invent a category just so that Sam Jackson could win best supporting actor. They didn't have a supporting scene. So basically what happens is Wesley Snipes starts at one point in Harlem and does a real-time walk. What seems to be four blocks or whatever to a crack house, a crack den, of which once he gets there, you know, especially for 91 when people were still had their heads in the sand over the crack epidemic, like to visually see that shot. I'm so I'm really shocked we didn't even ask bike about the scene when he was on the show twice I forgot but um doesn't it pause in the middle when when when Wesley has the conversation with uh charlie was it charlie merrick no no music still going music still going right so I guess what I wanted to like did they did they have to choreograph that wow in terms of was that just great editing because as far as I know Wesley Snipes starts four blocks ahead walks to the Tazma Hall four blocks later

confronts Halliberry and Sam Jackson and, you know, of course this has to work in coordinates with the song. You know, and stopping to talk to child. That's what I'm saying. I think Spike played the track while he was shooting. As he,

okay. Because it almost works so perfect when I cut it. I couldn't believe how it worked it worked so well. Right. Yeah, that to me is like one of his, I don't know. And again, I don't know timing-wise if it still could work in 2021. I beg them all the time.

Like, why, why is this the only film of yours that's not, you know, available for screening? Was he said? I don't know. I, you know, and it's weird. I've, I've done some, you know, I've read a few blogs or whatever. And they'll try to say, like, well, you know, this is his only film. that wasn't as timely or, you know, that sort of thing. Like it didn't age well or that sort of, I don't know.

But he sort of just, he's shruggish about it. But for me, I don't know. I, I, between that scene and the final scene with Ozzy Davis and Sam Jackson, I thought that was some of his most powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Visuals.

Yeah. So I, I guess I want to jump in two. you as a director, not just as an editor. As I mentioned at the top with eyes on the prize, too, the aforementioned Jesus in the Black Messiah film is based...

Judas in the Black Messiah. Oh, I'm sorry. I keep saying Jesus. You ain't the only one. It's so. Wait a minute. I've went on record on other places publicly said Jesus and no one has ever corrected me. Because he is...

That's because we weren't there. It's because we weren't there. And that's what we do. We correct you. That's why we're here. Anyway, so they use the footage from your documentary, interviewing,

I forget his name. William O'Neill. Yeah, William O'Neill. And, of course, they also note that he commits suicide the day that Eyes on the Prize finally gets televised. At the time,

why did you choose to include him in your film? And was he as brash as that clip seemed to be? I, you know. He kind of spoke with like no remorse. Like, well, at least I did something. Yeah, I think he was, I think he was conflicted. And, you know, I think he was a complicated man. And when, you know, because I didn't produce that particular segment,

but I was on the series. And, uh, oh, okay. I thought you directed that. That one I didn't direct. And you know, the producer whose voices really asking the question was a woman. You know, so it's, you know, I think, I don't think of it. I think he was a conflicted man. I just think he was torn, as you can see in the film.

And it caught up with him emotionally and psychically, you know. And also, too, they just didn't show, well, not that they didn't show in the movie, but I think a lot of times context is lost on just how young they were. when they got involved doing this shit. He was caught up between a rock and a hard place. Yeah. You know? So, you know, he was a conflicted man.

So it's a sad story. Quite honestly, very sad. Yeah. So with MLK FBI, what prompted you to even return to the story or like to investigate the story? Because I guess for a lot of people, you know, there's sort of a fatigue on. on civil rights and how many ways we can tell the story,

how did you know that there was another story to tell that we weren't aware of? It was a book. We read this book by David Garrow, a historian, about the surveillance of King by the FBI and Hoover, and we thought it would be a good story. If we told it right, we thought we could make it work. And, you know, the reality is that I don't think there's going to be a fatigue

on stories about King or Malcolm or even, you know, Fred Hampton. I mean, there's always an appetite. And this is history now. This is 40 years, almost 50 years ago. So this has become really important history. So we thought we could give it a new spin. You did, he did. And that's what we did.

That's why we did it. It was a new way to tell the story. How did you, as far as the film concerns, it really gets deep into how the FBI tries to intimidate and manipulate and use propaganda against King, especially his kind of philandering, if you will, with other women and that sort of thing. Was there any apprehension whatsoever to sort of let that cat out of the back? Even though these things are one record.

I know they're on record, but I don't think the average Joe likes this. I'm going to FBI and, you know. There were reservations. You know, we talked about it. You know, we felt like, you know, what's going to happen if we put this stuff in? you know, is it going to, are we going to be doing this disservice of the FBI? And we talked about it constantly. But we knew that if we left it out, someone would say,

well, you guys really just, you know, tried to clean this up and not short the, Dr. King, you know, whitewash it. So, you know, we talked about it. We talked about it. We tried different versions of the section about the supposed to rape. And so we felt we were doing, we were being responsible as filmmakers. So, you know, it's never, sometimes the decisions you make. are never easy, but you have to make a decision.

And that's when we said, okay, let's make the decision. We're going to put it in. We're going to try to be responsible filmmakers and tell them in a way that doesn't seem salacious. Were there things that you discovered in, well, first of all, what is the research besides the book? How much personal research do you as director have to do? And not just like, okay, your team or that sort of thing? No, no, you got to read books.

you got to read articles, you know, you try to do as much research as you can until you understand the subject you're going to tackle. And then you bring on an archival producer to help you find the material that you think can help visualize and orally tell the story. You know, so you always, I mean, when you're making these films, you've got to do homework.

You know, you could do homework, you could do homework on any of these documentaries for two or three years before you make the film. But sometimes you get schedules and you have to sort of do, it faster, you know. So I read the book. I read some of the letters. I read some of the Freedom of Information Act material, you know, and Ben did also. So we knew what we were doing, you know. Did the King family have, well, given, especially given who you are, did they have any,

like, heads up or you know, no heads up or you have any conversation? Okay. Hey. No. Because we know the King family is litigious. You know, they're looking to make money, you know, and, and, And when they're making money, we knew that they want to charge for any time you see Dr. King's image or hear his voice. And, you know, the amazing thing, you know, is that they didn't shoot that footage. It was shot by networks and stuff like that, but they feel a proprietary sort of, you know, ownership of their father's image. This brings up a good subject because we asked this of Mike Africa and Will, I'm sorry. sorry, the directors. Tommy, Tommy, Tommy.

I'm about to say, Tom, Mattole. Tommy. Right. Was Oliver? Was his last name of Oliver? Yes. Tommy Oliver. Tommy Oliver, I'm so sorry.

Yeah. Who did it, who did their documentary. And it's interesting that people, laymen don't understand how people get paid for, like, their appearances in, in documentaries and things of that nature. And I was, I kind of learned a little on this process of Amir doing songs of, uh, songs that shook, but just of archival and, breaking down, like, how it's not really a money-making situation with documentaries, right? Like, you shouldn't be thinking in that way, but when you do, there's a way, it's a different

way of doing things. Am I wrong in saying that? Well. Correct me. Say it correctly if I'm not. Yeah, you should never, you should never think you're going to make a documentary to make money because that rarely ever happens. But even some of the participants who feel like they're a part of this story and this, this, this,

project is going to make money. So if I'm seen on camera, then I should make a lot. I deserve a piece of it. Even if you break the record for a highest documentary? No. No, I'm playing. I'm playing. I'm playing.

The rule of thumb is you should never pay a subject to do a documentary. Thank you. I found out something in this process. Okay, well, I found out that if the subject is the executive producer of the project, like that's kind of a conflict of interest. So that's right In other words like because Wu Tang insisted on being the executive producers of that documentary Right

They're not eligible for You know like award season like for it I guess that would be an Emmy thing They wouldn't be eligible And also you cannot pay yourself you can't pay a subject to be a talking head That's right That's supposed to Yeah right however I found out there's

a slight I don't know if this is the magician giving away a secret. That's what I thought I was doing when I said the archival thing, right? Yeah. You could pay, if someone has something that you wanted to use in your film, archival or stills. Yeah, you say quote, archival. Right. Yeah. You're paying

your licensing their materials. Right. That you can do. Yeah, but I will say that that's, that's a loop around it. You can Yeah. Do archival. Okay. Okay. sort of things. But I'm never going to pay you, I got some good archival, though. I got some, ooh, I got some backrogy stuff.

Let me get it together. That may change it, though. So, Sam, I just want to talk about the upcoming projects you have. Well, in particular, the Negro League project that you're proposing. So since you're at the beginning of it, what in your mind, like in your mind, do you already have? have an outline of what you want to achieve, or is it still a thing where you have to see what you're given and then add to it later? Or?

It's a combination of both. I mean, in the case of the Negro Leagues, we know we have, you know, Bob Motley, Brian's father, to help tell that story, right? He's going to, we're going to do, and I've been reading this book again. So we know we're going to have elements from his life to tell that story. And then the other. element I know that we're going to have to tell this story is the archival images footage instills to tell the story. And we also have

this box full of interviews that Byron did over the years that I'm going to use. And in this particular case, because some of us not shot too well, I'm going to use it as audio. I'm going to use it as audio only for me. Oh, okay. Because I don't

want to see some of these people on camera. I'm going to do an audio to help tell that story. You know, and the other element that I, you know, you've heard me say is to create these impressionistic recreations of the fields of the places they played, of the locker rooms they were in, give you a sense of that experience.

To make it, my attitude is to try to make this film as poetic and informative as possible, you know, in a different way than I did MLKFBI. This one I wanted to have more poetry. You know, this was I want the music to sort of, you know, replicate the period that the Negro leagues evolved through, you know. So that'll take me back to this.

There was a great musician for my taste, you know, from the early 30s, you know, you know, name, what was his name? Ernie Fields. He had a great jump band in the 30s, and his music would be absolutely appropriate for the Negro leagues. You know, even quite honestly, you know,

Count Basie's early bands come out of, that Southwest feel, you know, that would have, that would be a great feel for that, that period also, you know, and Herschel Evans and Lester Young, you know, and Ben Webster, you know, so my head's already thinking the kind of musical template I want to use to help tell this story. My final question is, is there a film project that you long to do that you haven't? And that also includes non-documentary stuff as well. Is there a fantasy film that you want to knock out the box? Well, you know, I got the Max Rochrom, which is almost done.

We're tweaking now. And if I had, if there was a fantasy film I had to do, man, you know, I was listening to, I would do a film. I would do a film not about Blue Note Records. I would do a film about the musicians who were part of Blue Note Records, but who had this style that sort of changed from what I call that hard bop period to the post-coldrain McCoy Tynum period listening to people like Joe Henderson and Sonny Rollins, you know, and Freddie Waits, you know, because I'm so into the music. That's my head always, you know.

Okay, so basically the stuff that Ken didn't cover in his BBS document. Exactly right, man. Exactly right. No Joe Henderson, man. No, He's ready waits, you know. Yeah, I get it. Well, Sam, I thank you for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. It was fun.

It was fun, guys. Thank you. No, this was super fun. Yeah, man. And if you see Brennoe is telling myself, what up? Give me that rap again, man, for the opening. Pimps on a stroll, holes on the roll. Meet Candid.

She's looking dandy. On a Friday night, everyone knows the names change, but the game. remains the same. I don't know who you are anymore, Fonte. I do. I do not know who you are. Chikolo, too, lo, tickleau, ladies and gentlemen.

Who scored who's at the point? Anybody? Anybody? Yeah. It was Kenny Barry. Yeah. Wow. That is so crazy.

You know, because Brent, because Brent Owens' his brother is Jimmy Owens, the trumpet player. Good night. Oh, good night. Hookers at the point. Yes. That's crazy.

All right. Take care. On behalf of Laidheer, Sugarsteed, I'm Dave Bill and Fonte, and thank you, San Pauli. This Questlove is signing off. We will see you on the next go-round of West Love Supreme. Thank you. Be good. Take care, everybody. Peace, y'all.

Yo, what's up? This is Fonte. Make sure you keep up with us on Instagram at QLS and let us know what you think. And you should be next to sit down with us. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. All right. Peace. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeartRad. radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

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