The Questlove Show - QLS Classic: Spike Lee (Part 1)

Episode Date: October 26, 2020

In part 1 of 2, director, producer, writer and actor Spike Lee talks about growing up in pre-gentrified Brooklyn, his first Super 8 camera and why his films are more relevant today than ever. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange, modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

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From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians,

and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Quest Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to QLS Classic, episode 47 with the Great Spike Lee, August 2017. A side note, our guest today deserves credit at least for inspiring the Suprema Role Call theme song of our beloved show. Besides that, Spike Lee is a provocateur, a visionary, a storyteller, a hustler, a centric soul. This episode came slightly before his Oscar victory for Black Klansmen in 2019, but don't worry, we get it all out. All of his journey, all of our favorite movies, we get to ask him everything. Right here on QLS Classic with the Great. Spike Lee. It'll be really awkward.

Oh my God. Suprema, Subrema, Role Call. Suprema, Su, Suh, Suh,

Suh Who's laughing already? Suprema, Suprema Ro call. Suprema, Subima, So I'm just going to sit here

Yeah. And have the gall. Yeah. And pray that Spike don't sue me. Yeah. We're stealing his song. Roll call. Suprima.

Surma. Suprema roll call Suprema Subra Roca My name is Fonte Yeah Dropping these flows

Yeah Because I Be smacking my hole I hate you read Supreme a Roca Suprema Roca My name is Sugar

Yeah The Inside Man Been with the Roots This is the bamboozal band Supremea, sub, sub, sub, subprima, roll call. Why I just remember him? Supraima, role call. Spike Lee once was, yeah.

Boss Bill's teen hero. Yeah. But directing skills? Yeah. I had almost zero. Roll call. Suprema, sub, sub, suprema roll call. Suprema, sub, sub, sub, supremo roll call.

I want to let you know. Yeah. I'm not just for show. Yeah. Even you let me go. Oh God. Oh, give me love. Oh, sir,

Suprema Roll Call. Explain that after the reason. Your turn, Spike. Supreme a Roll Call. My name is Spike. Yeah. It was a nickname. Yeah.

My mother said, yeah. I was out of this world. Roll call. Supremia, Sa, Suprema, Superima, Roca.

Suprema, Subrema, Rocaul call. Suprema, Suprema, Subrema, So, Subrema role call.

Suprema, Supreme a Roll call I want to let you know I'm not just for show Either you let me go Really, that's your reference? Yeah, what? School days.

What? Yeah, I'm just getting a song written by the late Raymond Jones. Because her timing Because she didn't get it up. It's hard to, you know. Okay, now I hear the song of mine. Hi, everybody out there. I didn't recognize the song either.

Thank you. That's great. And did you recognize a still, wait, before I even introduce you, Spike Lee, he just did. What is the history

behind Shibuya roll call? I heard that at Morehouse. Oh, so that's... I didn't make that up. Isn't it like a theater warm up? So we just ice ice baby. See, ours goes ding, ding, ding.

Mac, just going to school, Morehouse, school days and do it again did it again when he got game. So that wasn't school days too? It wasn't

school days. Because I was going to get on the bus. Yeah. And, and. Get on the bus. Get on the bus. Get on the bus.

It's on school days too. Really? Yeah. I got to watch it again. I got to watch it again. Yeah. The gamites. The what?

Really? Yeah. Oh, when they first get in, when they first come on and they walk in the, yeah. The gamites. Oh, I got to watch it again. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, ladies, so three times. Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, this is another episode of Questlove Supreme. Introducing the fam, this is, oh, damn, I really wish. Fonticelo, who was the bus driver of get on the bus.

And to my right, we have Sugar Steve, who was one of the thugs in summer of San Francisco. That's what's up. Yes. Yeah. What's your last name? No. Is it the end of the vowel? I was around back then, but I didn't do it.

Actually, actually, I have a similar last name to the guy who did do it. Okay. Oh. Yeah, Berkowitz. Yeah. And boss bill to my left. Eat the sandwich. Well, he was one of the cornermen on do the right thing.

I was going to ask to be Bob regular from Girl 6. Bob regular? No. Okay. It's too late. Anyway. And we have Laiae. I can't wait.

Fresh from Crooklyn. Okay. She was a girl making out with, with, oh, Fonte was also in Crooklyn. Y'all were making out with each other in the, and the, that's true. Oh, yeah.

And the vestibir. Rather than Rupar. Never go back to Georgia. I never go back. I ain't no putta. I hate my pussy's. No ticky, no tacky. Ladies and gentlemen.

I never go back to Joe Juba. Yes. Finally, it's taken some time, but I will say that at least for me personally, and maybe I speak for most of the inhabitants of this room that we have

the director of our particular generation with us right now. Thank you very much. Mr. Spike Sheldon Lee. New Yorker. Phil Marr tour.

Political activist and great human being. How are you, sir? I'm good. I'm glad to be here, and we're in the electric lady's studio, so this is very historical. Wait, I'm glad somebody shouted a minute. Steve, A. you to say that? Yes, I'm sorry, I've not been giving an electric lady their props. We're live in Studio A, where many a classic has been born.

A lot of great spirits. in here where we are right now. You can feel it. We walk in the door. You can feel the spirits. Well, Spike, I know when Spike agreed to do this, he was like, so it's like, like 45 minutes. I was like, no, 90.

And he was like, all right, so now, right? I was like, no, Spike, 90. I tried a hint. I was like, well, in the Jimmy Jam episode, it was seven hours. That's not the way to go in. And Spike was like, nah, motherfucker. So.

I'm good. We have to. Long ago. Oh. Shield. You don't mean that Don't. Let me lean back.

Get comfortable. So I'm going to, because we have so much questions about your filmography. Three decades of work, body of work. Yes, for 30 years. Yeah. You were born where? In Atlanta, Georgia.

In Atlanta, Georgia. Right. Really? I thought you were born in New York. No. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia. and my parents moved to Brooklyn. We moved to Cron Heights when I was like,

two years old, moved from Cron Heights during the first black family, Cabell Hill. Wow. That's where all my Italian-American thing comes back. Because back then, Cobble Hill is a stone Italian-American. And then my mother said, Tateau-I paid a rent. So we bought a brownstone and four green

for $45,000 in 1968. Wait, how is that even possible? 1968. What was that like? Pre-gentification. In fact, the real thing. Realtors wouldn't even list Fort Green. It would say downtown vicinity.

So it's really been a trip to grow up in Fort Green, predominantly black in Puerto Rican. Schools are no good. Garbage never picked up. Cops are around. And those things aren't like that anymore with the change. No, they are not. Garvick just cleaned up.

Public schools are great. And the cops are around. I was trying to explain to my New York daddy what Dumbo was today. He was like, what? I don't know. Down under Manhattan Bridge, that's what they, is that what it is? So can you get, for the films that you've shot in Brooklyn, Brooklyn neighborhoods, how different are they now?

Like the do the right thing block. Like, what is that now? Is that like unattainable? It's gentify. So no more black families, no more brown families there. Yeah, but it's gentify. I mean, do the right thing was shot in bedside, do or die, Bepha Stuyveson.

But the great thing about that, New York. city that block we shot on we shot duteron thing in one block the summer in 1988 that block has been renamed do the right thing way and it's a first time a movie a song has ever been just named after that so we we take and that's also where we have our michael jackson block parties too on the same block so is that the block where i visit the office and it's no the office is further down downtown no my office in Fort Green. Okay, so, okay, that's not. Yeah.

And the place where you, when I visited your first store, like back in 91, is that still up? That's called Ches Paulette. Okay. But that's the new name of the block or the new name of the neighborhood?

No, no, no. It's a restaurant. But my office is on South Oaks, South Elliott. Okay. What a restaurant is, is where the original spikes joint was. Oh, okay.

And I own that building, too. And so when we did Jungle Fever, that's where Halliberry, we're going to put a plaque there where she stayed. Wow. Wait, that's the scene where... No, there's no scene in. No, that's just where she stayed during the filming. She slept. Why she was shooting the film.

Oh, damn. Okay. No, that's not what the Taj Mahal scene was. Yeah, I'm sorry, wait a minute, why would you wake up? Let's not begin. Hallie Berry's first film, too. Jungle Fever. And did she really not shower for all those days and stuff? Yeah, here goes the story.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's get to that. Oh, we can do it now. She, uh, Robbie Reed cast that film. And so she brought in, Hallie Berry came in five times. Mm-hmm. And the role is Vivian the $2 crack hole. And the first four times, she was just to, fuck. So finally, some must have told her, you can't kind of look like this.

So I think she didn't bathe for a week. And I didn't even recognize when she stepped in the room. And that's how she got to part. Wow. I just did not see her. Fine, she was. That's the opposite of the casting. I did not see it as fine.

There's a billion to $2 crack hole. Wow. She had an awesome chick. She showed us, didn't she? Yeah, she did. Mm-hmm. So why, I mean, at a time where. were the 70s and the upward mobility

and, you know, a lot of our, you know, the ways that black people express themselves creatively. Usually through sports or singing. Why did you choose visuals? Why did you choose, I mean, was it that you had a childhood experience where you saw like Gordon Park works?

No, it wasn't at all. When people ask me that question a lot, And I just say a film chose me. I grew up in a very artistic background. My mother taught his great high school in Brooklyn Heights called St. Anne's. She taught black literature. My father's a great jazz musician composer, Bill Lee. And I just grew up in a very artistic household.

My mother had the vision. Not that we were going to be artists, but she exposed us, just not just me, but all my siblings to the arts. So she was dragging me to Broadway plays, museums. I didn't want to go.

We went kicking and screaming. Every single time we came home, we would thank it because that was fun. You go on the museum, going to play. It's like, my mother was the one introduced me to Martin Scorsese. She took me to see mean streets.

My father hated movies. I mean, I love sports. So my love of sports, comes from my father. Right. My love of movies comes from my mother. I was my mother's movie date.

Well, I was going to ask, how has one a film buff before the age of the remote control, the rewind button, Netflix? Yeah, and just cable. Because they had, you know,

I forgot the word from, but you had theaters that showed old films. So even back in the 70s, they would still show like... Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, there was. But was a film noir? Like now in the weekends,

I know 11 or 12 movie theaters in New York that will show something like it hotter. And it's trendy and stuff. They had the St. Mark, I forget in the theaters, but they were certain theaters that's all they showed was old films. And that's the only where, I mean,

this is really before BHS. Okay. So, I mean, unless you stayed up, you know, watch with the commercials on Channel 9 or Channel 11, you... Older films? You went to these retrospective theaters. But was there film noir on the level of, like, now, you know, I'll buy all the criterion collection stuff and watch the, you know, like, what was that for you?

Like, what was the director's commentary for you? I mean, that really seduced you into. But it wasn't like that. I mean, I went to films, but I was not a film buff. I didn't want to be a filmmaker. I mean, I wanted to play second base for New York Mets, but genetics conspired against that. You could have been a shortstop. Second baseman.

I didn't have a strong enough arm for shortstop. But I only played softball. But here's the story, though. And I said it many times and maybe the audience hasn't heard it. I went to Morehouse because I had to go to Morehouse. My father and grandfather went to Morehouse. And my mother and grandma

went to Spellman across the street. Wow. Wow. Some third generation, I'm some educated Negroes. My father was a fresh and Moorhouse. House, Dr. King was a senior Moore House, and Dr. King's son, Martin and I were classmates. We're in the class 79 in Morehouse. Also, with Jay Johnson used to be the head of home security.

We were all in Class 79 in Morehouse. So my first two years in Morehouse, I was a D plus C-minus student. It was because I wasn't because I wasn't smart. I just was not motivated. And right before it was time to go back

in New York, back to Brooklyn, at the end of my sophomore and my advisor told me that I had to choose a major. I said, why? And she said, because you've exhausted all the electives. So I came, this is, now this is this key. This is historical, because it's 20 years now. It's like, this is a very important summer. 20 years ago, summer 77.

So I came back to New York, and New York City was broke. You couldn't get a job. Usually, you know, you get a job in the summer because New York City was broke and there's a famous daily news front page that says Ford the city dropped dead, Ford being president Ford. So I had nothing to do all summer.

And I don't want to, you know, sit in a stupid place stratomatic baseball, you know. And so I have a very good friend. Her name is Vietta Johnson. She was always smart. The top three high, the top three public high schools in New York City are Stuyveson, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech. And so you can take a test, depending on your grade, the tier is,

Stuyvesant's first, wrong science, then Brooklyn Tech. Brooklyn Tech is on the same block where, where across street, direct cross street from Spikes Joint, Donald Block, from my office now, 40 acres on a mule. Anyway, I went over here at this house. She's always smart.

And went to Stuyvesant, went to Princeton, went to Princeton undergrad, Harvard Med School. She always knew she always knew she was going to be a doctor. So, so one day, And looking back on this, I understand it was not lucky. It was the spirit. The spirit told me to go see Vietta that day. Because I wasn't doing it to have shit to do.

If I go to Svietta, she lived on her, lived on Ashton Place where University Towers is right across the street from L.I.U. Where the field is. And so we're sitting in a living room. And it's the box in the corner. I say, what is that box? She said, that's a supery camera. You can have it.

Whoa. And then I say, what's the other box? She says, stupid. That's the box. That's the cartridge for the Super 8 film for the camera. She says, you don't, I don't need this shit. I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to be a doctor. Right.

This is a sister. She's a doctor in Chicago now. So now I had something to do. So the entire summer in 1977, so I didn't have a job, I ran around New York City with this Super 8th. for a camera. It was also one of the hottest summers on record. That's why there was a blackout.

When Kahnazen fucked up, black folks, Puerto Rican's lost their mind, looting like mother. I was filming it. Really? Filmed it on 125th Street. Filmed it on Fulton Street in Brooklyn. Also, 77 was the first summer disco.

So all the DJs We're hooking up their wheels of steel and the turn to the turn of the speakers, the street lamps. It's all still on the block parties. The dancers hustle. Also, oh, Reggie Jackson. The film from an off-the-wall documentary.

Last hustle in Brooklyn? Yeah, yeah, that's where the footage comes from. So, then we had this maniac called psychopaths. Steve Nell. Called David Berkowitz. Son of Steve. Here's the thing that people forget about that summer. Black and Puerto Rican people were not scared of David Berkowitz

because this is before generation. And the motherfuckin fucking David Berk was to come into Harlem, they come to South Bronx, to come to bedside do or die. He would have been killed. Right, right. And I'm not making fun of us because people lost loved ones. But the fact remains

Black people in Puerto Rico was not, we weren't worried about Son of Sam. So I had this footage, came back to school in the fall and declared my major. Mass communications. But Morris didn't had that major. I took the class, took my majors

across the street to Clark College. Massifications, film, TV, radio, print journalism. I forget what the other thing is. And there's a teacher there. He's still teaching their day. His name is Professor Herb Eichelberger. Yes, Dr. I went to Clark.

You went to Clark? Yeah, radio TV film. Dr. Ikeleberger was dumb. Give it up. He still teaching. AUC, A.U. Center. Hell yeah. So he, Dr. Herb Eichobo, who's still teaching there. He's the one that encouraged me to be a filmmaker. He's went, when I told him

about this footage I had, I took the footage back to Atlanta. That's what Morales says. But I didn't know where I was going to do it. Right. He encouraged me to make a documentary and that document turned out to be Last Hustle in Brooklyn and there are many times

so Dr. Igerberg we call it Dr. E. He had the key to the film lab and two or three times a week he would stay three or four hours so I could work on a film he wasn't getting paid overtime either

and it's been my maybe you guys will experience this but in my experience I've talked a lot of people and everybody talks about that one teacher they had that saw something in you that you didn't see that you didn't even see wow

and her Ikeberg was when he said he said you know what I started to think about the all this stuff then it came back then you full circle my mother started was taking me to movies I remember my mother taking me East of Sunday to see motherfucking bye bye birdie

oh wow and the opening here's it no people know this The opening credit sequence A Duderic thing Comes from Bye Bye By Birdie With Anne Margaret That's where it shit came from Rosie Perez comes from Anne Margaret

I mean yes Because she dances her ass off though Anne Margaret She does That's where it came from Wow So all these things that happened Started to spring up again

But my mother God bless her soul If you saw a crook You know my mother died While I was the sophomore Morehouse All these things she planted You know Bore fruit

many, many years later, but I did not grow up want to be a filmmaker. That just didn't happen. You, speaking of circles, I just want to mention real quick in a strange circle by the time I went to Clark, I believe Bill Nunn was a teacher at Clark Atlanta. I just wanted to mention that when he rest in peace. Yeah, right. So Bill Nunn and Sam Jackson, a warhouse man,

but they had graduated before me, but they were still in Atlanta doing local theater. And that's where I met them. They were a couple of years ahead of me. So can I ask, what is, I mean, now in my mind, like, Atlanta culture became cool mid to late 80s, especially with music migration and people coming down there.

But what was Atlanta like? Like were you rolling your eyes up in the air? Like was anything cooler than New York? Like, New York was the coolest? When you went down south, was it like, ah. And I can speak with authority. If you went, if you were from New York and you went down south, all those motherfuckers were bambles.

Bammers. And we were very arrogant. And I understand now they hate us. Absolutely. They hated people from New York. That confrontation seeing that the KFC in school days was like a real, that was typical of. Well, that really was a New York thing. That's more like college students.

The local yokels versus the. But that's real too about Atlanta. Here's the thing, because the A. The A.U. Center is called. and they call the buttermilk bottom. So, like, even USC is in the hood. Right. Yale's in the hood.

All the black colleges in the black colleges. No one's talking about, but Southern Cal is in the hood. Yeah, Yale's definitely in the hood. Yale's in the hood. So you have these oasis in Columbia before they brought up all motherfucking Harlem, not so high either. These real estate motherfuckers,

they're trying, you know, they're trying to change the name of Malcolm X Boulevard to Reed Avenue? What? Nah. Google. That's her. It happened to D.C.

already. Our Malcolm X turned to Meridian Hill. Really? They changed the name? Yeah, it's Meridian Hill. Malcolm X Park? Nope. Meridian Hill.

Actually, our, our, the, the, I lived on O.Sage Avenue. In Philly? Yeah, our Malcolm X. Park just changed to, we are now called, uh, walnut oak lane. Did you know that? I did not know. I'm not even West Philly now. It's, it changed the name.

Walnut Lane. That shit ain't happening. I'm sorry. In Harlem, they want to change it back to Reed Avenue. Fuck that. Spike, anything possible in gentification land. That's crazy. I'm sorry, but that's crazy.

But that's really the origin how I became a filmmaker. Wow, so the camera just basically just fell right in your lap. But that was a... Do you still have that camera? No. Where is that camera? I don't know. Spike, man.

But here's the thing, no. Spistone. How about I say, yeah, Spersonia? Yeah. They'll have to pay for it. There's a new museum in Philly. But here's the thing, no. That you say, I don't think, I think that was ordained.

Because I don't think it was a mistake that that day, I just decided to go see Vienna. And that day, the Supre Cam was just sitting there in the corner. And then you that career. Say it again? Enhanded you your career. My life. You know what?

Side note, on a parallel tip, now that I'm thinking about it, Spike Lee is also responsible for the roots because our story is very similar where after my audition at the new school and at Juilliard and Tarek came up with me to New York for the weekend on my train ride home

back on SEPTA from Jersey to back to Philly. A girl walked up and thought that I was chocolate, the bucket drummer, and that Levi's commercials you did. Yeah? Oh, wow. She thought I was chocolate. But it's only because... It's your fly button. But it's only because I did Boisterman's Motown Philly video, and our hair was sort of similar. So I knew she meant, are you the drummer than Motown

Philly video? video but she's like oh you're in that Spike Lee commercial right and so we were like laughing like yo man because that's that summer like fame just started a little taste of it like people started recognizing and you know so me and Tariga like oh this is kind of cool but it was

the next day when we were watching Soul Train and the commercial came on and it just hit us like Eureka like we looked at each other like yo wait why don't we do that like let's do that in Philly and instantly we got the buckets and like

The Roots, as you know it, was born that way. But off the strength for that commercial. When your Levi's commercial came on, I was like, yo, we need to do that. And then we, four hours later, we're on South Street busking. And then now I'm sitting here with Spike Lee is, uh, allegedly. So that's crazy.

Let me get this and is that, you know, a lot of people, you know, they tell you whether they like it, them or not. But more, the biggest compilets ever get is when people of all generations say they went to a black school or they went to a black school or they went to college because of school. Because of you. Oh, hell yeah. I mean, when people say that,

there's nothing better when they said because of that film, motherfuckers were even thinking about going to school. Didn't even know there were things of black colleges. I'll be honest. I didn't know the culture was that rich. Like seeing that, then I was like, oh, like. It kind of set off a different world.

Who knew? Yeah. That was a. Oh, that problem. No, no. I'm kind of simultaneously Well, wait, was it a mistake that half the people that were in the same cast and director

Robbie Zardtree? That's right, because it was a different world first, that's how we knew it was Ron and Jasmine and Cadeen. No, we came out first. Oh, that's what I meant. So she's cast the same people different role first.

You know, and I can't fault Bill Cosby. I should have been on it. I should have. I just had a different idea about, you know, Stupid me, you know, Miles, TV. I'm not going to do TV. And he saw the ideal and he swooped in on it. Wow.

2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the end. practical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry.

We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross

double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here,

unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now, so... Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes, I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years. for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Before we start your film career, how did you gather the moss that will be your inner circle? Like, how did you meet Ernest Dickerson? Oh. How did you? Who's your starting five? Besides Ernest Dickerson, did you have the same light people,

the same center? Here we go. Who's the starting lineup? Well, at the Moore House, I still knew I did not have enough skills as a, to be a director, filmmaking, the grammar. The same way you put together, a paragraph,

whatever, this is the thing called film grammar. So I applied, I did my research, applied to the top three film schools in the United States America, AFI American Film Institute, USC, Selling Kyle of the Trojans, and NYU. To get an AFI, USC, you had to get an astronomical score on the GRE.

I took the GRI, and I did not. get that astronomical school. But there were more forward-thinking, progressive people, thinking people in NYU, the grad films could think that, you know, they understood the standardized testing could be biased. It has nothing to do being a filmmaker. So I didn't have to take a test, applied, always do submit, have an undergrad degree in submit you create a portfolio.

I got it. Also, Ernest Dickerson got it. We were in the same class. We both from black schools, earning women. Ernest with the Howard. Wow. Oh, wow. Okay.

grew up in New Jersey. So right away we hit it. To Ernest, Ernst shot all my NYU grad film is three years. So he shot my second year film, my thesis film, Joe's Best Side Barbershop, which won the Student Academy Award.

And because that film, this is key, Ernest shot Joe's Best Side Barbershop, And that film got him, John Sales film, Brother of Another Planet. Oh, with Joe Martin. So what was great is because we always can work together, but it was great that Ernest had already shot a feature before he did. She's got to have it. So he has more experience and knowledge.

Yeah. So Ernest is the DP. My editor is Barry Brown. Barry gave my first job. He was owner of an independent distribution. company called First Run Features after I graduate NYU where I was just cleaning films and stuff like that

he cut it. My father, Billy's composer, Wyn Thomas from Philly production designer. Roof Carter. The great Roof Carter. Went to Hampton. Roof Carter,

Robbie Reed, and Ray Dowell all were classmates the same class and Hampton. I did not know it. Your network. HBCUs, baby. HBCU Network, boo-boo-boo.

Yes. So that was for many years. That was the like, that was it. So Ernest shot features for me. She's going to have it. School Day's Do Right Thing More Better. Jungle Fever. Malcolm X was the last film.

Can I ask you? Real quick. And Ernest came in to be a director. I was going to say. He came into. He came into. Yeah. He came into a director, but his cinematography was so tight.

He knew that eventually he would become a director by being a DP. And so after Malcolm X, his first director of film was Juice, the two-pop. And right now, Ernest is the top, one of the top episodic TV directors. He is. Wow. You see his name everywhere. Everywhere. Who decides the 51-49 of it?

Like, I would assume that, you know, the president. president's the director and the vice president is a cinematographer and you you've got to be married to each other so I mean how come you guys didn't have a thing like okay we'll do this project and then I'll do the cinematography and you do directing or that's I was not a cinematographer what's the difference between yeah what is the difference between the DP and the director DP has to photograph the movie the DP and the cinematography the same thing okay yeah right that helps But there's different, there's totally two different. Some, they are DP directors, but usually it's two different skills sense.

And Ernest's visual sense was so far advanced than mine that, you know, when there was a question, you know, I'd say, what you want to do, Ernest. So when we're talking to Spike Lee shot, the idea of the Spike Lee shot, you. The double dolly shot? Well, not even that. I'm talking about first before the dolly shot, I'm thinking of a lot of your frames were diagonal. That was only in, in, do the right thing. you had some abstract looking stuff. But it wasn't those words

for she's got to have it. There was some abstract looking. Oh, I never thought of looking at someone. I've definitely remember the first time you, the cameras on the floor more looking up, like making people taller, just things I've never seen before. Well. Like who decides, whose idea is that?

It depends. I mean, we usually back early, it was earnest idea because his visual sense, so much events in mind. Ernest, after he graduated, Ernst was an architecture major at Howard, and then he didn't come to NYU right away. He was a

medical photographer at the hospital. So, I mean, his visual sense was that's why everybody wanted Ernst to shoot their films, NYU grad film. So was he the double dolly, or was that you? We both, there was a scene of the more better blues where

we had, first of all, we did not invent that shot. We just made up. Where did you first see it? Or like, okay, we got to do that. We did it, but it wasn't too later. You discovered. We saw this. People being doing it.

I think it was first when you were avoiding the thugs and moved better. Yeah, I was, see, what was wrong about that shot, when you run a double dollar, you really shouldn't move. But I was trying to, I didn't, we didn't know that. I thought it was cool. We didn't know that.

I thought it was cool. I'm trying to, moved like I'm walking. Oh, I got a real dumb question. Is there a, I'm sorry, I got to ask. Is there a single dolly shot? Because you're saying, you're on one and then the camera's on one? No, it's just, it's one dolly.

Okay. But the actress sitting on the dolly, so therefore we call the double dolly. So you're sitting on a store or, okay. Apple box. Apple, okay. But here's the thing, though. Ernest and I would do it. But finally, we had a conversation.

He said, you know what? We're out of film school. So we got to use this so this shot means something. So example, where it means something is when the best use probably is in Malcolm Maxx. Yeah. As he's going to the bottom ballroom. And the reason why I did that, doing research for the film, I became very close with Dr. Bajabas, Malcolm's Whittle, the late.

great Dr. Basha Bass. And she told me, she felt that Malcolm knew he was going to be assassinating. We went to Oliver Bowen that he wanted to be a martyr. So when she told me that, I said, well, how are we going to convey that?

And then we said, we'll do that. The double dollar shot. Another example, it would be 25th hour. At the late great, Philipsie Moore-Huffman kisses. Anna, what's her last?

Anna Paco. And Apakwa. Kisses a student. And it was bathroom. And then it's like, oh, shit, what I do. And that's when he's coming out this song, Bra. Zimandah. I was going to ask about that scene because that song is just too perfect for that whole scene.

It's too perfect. So what's a... Oh, another example, Denzel again. An Inside Man, where we see what we think is an awning of one of the hostages. by Clive Owen's character, but turns out it's fake, but dental doesn't know it, so right then and there, he feels that he's responsible for his hospital being shot in the head because he had roughed up Clive Owens' character,

so that's when we have him doing that too. They used it a few times, Jungle Fever. Yeah. Yeah, where he would have a conversation away. The girls walking down the street, maybe. Me and Wesley, that's when I admit that I... Go ahead. I spilled the beans.

right oh yeah to to right right but told my wife so um for she's got to have it did you I mean what's how did you learn how to write a screenplay well by reading screenplays I mean we had it and why you there is a great film school and so that teachers who

would show the film they would show you the film they would give you the screenplay so it's a great learning experience

to read something and see how that's directed how it translates yeah how it translate so that's how I

shot she's going to have in 12 days really July 1st to the 14th in the summer in the summer

1985 two sixth day weeks. Like I'm trying to do the math and the visuals in my head. Sorry for making this a very slow interview. But in my head, I'm like, and you shop on time? We had to. We didn't have any more money. I was going to say, did you Hollywood shuffle it?

Did you just say, here's my credit cards? I didn't have a credit card. You didn't have credit. I have a credit card. We put that film, we really did it. We approached it in the four stages. first stage was shoot it

second this is film now we shot super 16 the second stage would get the film out the lab the third stage was crucial

was me to have enough money to eat why I was because I edited the film and that was very crucial

because I was hanging out with the chef you know who the chef is the chef chef chef B.R.D BORD BORD

BORD BOR! You got me. You got me. Come on, don't front. You've all eaten spaghettios. Yes, we have. Ravioli all that.

That was craps. You're on pre-Raman. So wait. So I recall one of my dad's business partners. Like when you first started coming on the scene. Right. Because there was buzz at the same time, I'm almost simultaneously about you and Whoopies Rise in New York with her one-moment show and you doing film.

And I remember when I first ever heard of who you were, they were trying to describe the fact. Did you have to hustle T-shirts or socks or something? Oh, I know you're talking about. What was the story behind that? Well, in the trailer for the film, it begins with me saying, tube socks, tube socks, three-fodate dollars. You can Google it. When I'm not selling two socks, I'm a director. Oh, okay.

So maybe they, okay, I'm thinking maybe they, it was like, yeah, he funded it selling t-shirts and two socks. Okay, I see. So before we get to school days, any? Oh, well, yeah, with she's got to have it, how did you cast those people? Like, what was that process like? I put an ad and backstage and people send it. headshots. And it was just off the

headshots that you... And you call them in. And the fine was Tracy Camilla John. Yeah. And that was her in New Jack City or is that an urban legend? No, that's urban legend. And in the Tom of the Walkin video. No, that was they were projecting scarface

on her butt. Yeah. She was Yeah, she was dancing. You wouldn't have put a high price out. And you brought her back in, well, we're jumping weird. You brought her back in... Red Hook summer. Yeah. And also, she has a A cameo in your Netflix version And she's got... No?

Oh. Yeah, it was on Instagram anyway. No. Yeah, it's true. Oh, okay. Great. Wait. Flash is in the...

What, I call him Flash from five heartbees, but what's his name? Melvin... No. I knew you would know. Are you going to say Melvin Lynch? John Canada. I hate John Canada to Rail. John Canada to Real.

How do you know this name, Fonte? I just... He lives in Philly, too. He lives in Philly, too. He lives in Philly. He's from Philly. I've seen him once, and I think he was doing an adaptation of both characters, like a one-man play.

And Flash? Yes, of his five-hour piece. What? Seriously? This was like 15 years ago. He put both characters together as a one-man show. It's like a retrospective of my history in cinema. Gotta be boy.

Flash, it's lonely at the top. In stores in two weeks. So, yeah, that's what I realized, like, oh, you live in Philly. Like, it was like the summer of 94 or something, like, right when the Roots Versa got started. And he's like, yeah, I'm doing a one-man show about, you know, my career and experiences of, you know, that sort of thing. It was not long-rung at, huh? No, it wasn't. It was...

Grand Open and Grand Closing. All right. School day is so many questions. Can I get started on school days first? I have the first question on school days. Yes. Go ahead. Pre-date school days by...

Oh, good. So, after she's got to have it. Morris. Oh, I forgot the videos, too. Well, yeah, that. Yes, a couple. Yeah. When you were, I guess, finishing up,

she's got to have it, you were getting started on another movie called The Beavis. Messenger? No, hold on. That was Irving Legend? No. I got it backwards. Backwards. Okay. After I finished NYU. Oh, okay.

In the summer, in May of 82, I tried to do a feature film called Messenger. We had, it was starring Lawrence Fishburn, Jean-Cars Sposito. I got involved with a friend of the family who said he was going to finance the film and got all my classmates we're going to shoot this summer

this summer of 84 and the money never came so I had to pull the plug and my name was mud rightfully so I had to lay low and I just said to myself I had three years of being in graduate film NYU

so I'd be able to do a film with two or three people speaking, and that turned into she's going to happen. But it was a complete disaster. Did you ever try to revisit that project later on? No, no. Do you still have the screenplay? It's not really for...

Public consumption. I just try, like, is it... Exercise. Got it. Got it, got it, got it. Okay. But here's a thing, no. Here's a thing. I said this the other day in London.

I gave a speech there. There have been so many times my life where I have one foot on the ground and that one foot that Spizike Air Jordan is on the corner is on the ground but the ground's on the cliff and that next

the other foot is about to take that step and I've been I've been blessed because so many times if I've taken the other step there had been curtains and if I had gotten the money for made that film

I would not be here because I was not I had people jumping off cars off roofs I mean just crazy shit there's no way I could have done and I'd have been the end of me really so it's blessing it's a blessing a lot of times though we think about this a lot of times some shit happens

and you're like oh shit this is fucked up but in retrospect you say you know what I'm glad that shit before can we get amen here amen it wasn't for you This is how I think you can resurrect it. Similar to Mario doing... Badass?

Make a movie about... You're trying to make this movie. I think that's the movie, right? Good. Was she got to have it? Was that the beginning of the Nike relationship? Somebody wanted me to ask you that? Yes.

And how? Famous story. Two gentlemen who worked for Wydeny Kennedy, still Nike's agency. Jim Davenport, Will Bill Wyden, in Portland they saw the film they got the ideal

to appear Michael Jordan my characters Mars called me up and said want to do this we're shooting 35 million black and white you play Mars you could direct but there's one thing Michael Jordan does know who the fuck you are

he's never heard of a film and he just found a big deal with Nike and he says so he has director's approval and so Mike could have gone with Bob Giraldi those big time commercial director Joe Picker I mean these guys are great

and it wasn't until the all-star game in Toronto which is two years ago that I finally got enough courage to ask Mike I say money why did you choose me said you know what you said you were wearing the sneakers That's where it started

So you had to meet him first in that You had to meet him first And he made the decision He was going to do it before I met him But Because you had him on Yeah but that's why he made that

That's why he decided to go with me And now Joe Picker He was rocking him Like you would be doing it if you wasn't meeting with him That's crazy You know what it probably was Mars to take up his joy As he was making love to Nola

That's my right there Two. Two shots. Two shots. Two shots. Wait, I was about to say, yeah, you were rocking the threes by then. Yeah. Damn.

No, those Jordan won. Yeah. Yeah. 86. The threes would do the right thing. You're right. The threes were bugging out. I was going to say, how did you arrange for the threes to make their debut in that film?

Like, I bought them. Wait, they were out by then or just? Yeah, they were out. So we should I do the right thing in summer 88? Oh, okay. Okay, that makes sense. Where you keep them, right? What?

All your shoes, all the Nikes, all the Jordans. In the vault with the Oscar. Signed. Oh. Game War signed. Wow. Wow. So you, I know that you made by this point after the movie

you also started making music videos. Right. You shot, why did you shoot a video to White Lines when it wasn't a single? Oh, Ernst and I were in film school. Okay.

In YU, video was coming out. So we wanted, we did, that White Lines video was on spec. So we took. So we Robinson commissioned you guys to do it? No, we did it on spec. And God rest of her soul and Joe, what's it, Joe Robinson.

But they were crooks. Well, that's the jury. Really? Crucks. So we heard everybody. Do this video for White Lines starring Lawrence Fishburn. Mm-hmm.

Give it to them. They say, we don't want it. And then 10 years later, they put a compilation of videos as it. And it's on there. You even see the splice marks. It wasn't even finished.

They put it on their compilation. for sure you're going to record videos Wow Once they realize who they had Yeah Crooks What was it like shooting Miles Davis

Oh Here's the thing Uh-oh Wait what was the Miles Davis shoot for her Two-two You did two Yeah Oh I haven't seen that one

So here's the thing The Miles BD used to run that joint Miles knew my father Oh So he'd incurs me out He gave me

Everybody else He could call you The motherfucker in a second But we were cool I said, Spike, I know your father's cool, so I'll leave you alone. But it was just great. You know, I've been very lucky. Miles, Prince, Michael, Phyllis Hyman from school days.

School days. But can we go back to Miles real quick? Yes. So when you saw Miles ahead. Come on, man. Okay, well, okay. So were you ever inspired to, What's the question?

Can there ever be another Miles Davis movie after there has been one and shit there? That wasn't really a Miles Davis movie. Here's the thing, though. Look, I have respect for Don Chittal. And I just think that there's a thing called Taking Liberties.

Right. But to event, I mean, he practically said himself, he had the right, write that story, get funding to get finance. And so, what's my man's name? The writer, what's the actor's name? Ewan McGregor.

That, and the whole thing about his mass has been stolen, that never happened. Hmm. It never happened. I will say, though. Can I just say this real quick? That's why

it pains me, because I worked on Jackie Robinson for three years. I worked on James Brant for two years. I wanted to do Ali but you can't do another film about Jackie Robinson you can't do another film about James Brown because the rights

the rights are gone the state sold the rights they locked it up so you can't come behind them really? It's like double jeopardy like film double jeopardy I mean there's multiple incredible hulks there was the greatest and there's Ali

see the thing is though I think you got very lucky you got extremely extremely lucky with Malcolm X. For starters, he had a short life. So, you know, him cutting his life being cut in his 30s gives you just enough space to wiggle and really tell a meaty story, a three-hour story. But it's almost like in your vision of James Brown, could you get from Augusta, Georgia, 1928 all the way? Could you even get to 1974 without really cutting corners? Because the thing is, okay, the Miles thing with Don might have been a little spotty,

but I at least like the fact that they just chose one story. I'd rather see a well-put-together story in the day of the life. Okay, you're going to tell a three-month story about him recovering. But what you're talking about, though, Quest, is that that's direct his vision, because, for example, the reason why I didn't get Jackie Robinson made because I wanted to tell the whole story, and they just wanted the powers to be, the gatekey just want to do it on 1947, the year they broke the color line.

And I just think that the say that this one life, I mean, this one year, how did he get there? Right, right. And do we know, are we going to show that he testified against Paul Robeson? You know, that he was Republican? Damn, we miss, I mean, you leave all that stuff out. But again, it comes down to the director's vision, you know. So who you got to hurry up and swoop down on before somebody else?

I don't think he's going to say that right now. Well, that was a mistake you already made with James Brown. I was like, I was ready from Wesley to kill it. Damn. I really wanted Denzel. It was the age where he could have played Jackie. Wow. And also, I like to say something.

Again, this is all respect. How can brother-in-man go from? Jackie Robinson, James Brown. Thurgood Marshall. Has anybody ever seen a picture through for Marshall? Yes, I have. Yeah. That was hurtful.

Now, now. Wait, what am I missing? He's light-skinned. Chad by here. Chad with Bozeman is playing Thurgoe Marshall. What? Google. It's like an HBO movie or something.

Google. Yeah, I think it came out already. No, it's coming out. Didn't we not learn from Nina? Right. Don't you even. So my brother, man, think of this, Jackie Robinson, James Brown, now Thurgo Marshall.

Hmm. He's to play Mandela next. It was already like five down. If anything, I would see, what's his name from Empire, Philly? Umari. No, not. No, uh, Terrence Howard? Terrence Howard?

Empire. I mean, if you would, yeah. He already got the conk? No, no, yeah. No, him is Thurgood Marshall? I could see him as natural. Yeah. With the cunk.

Did he heard of? Mendele did a cunt. I was his hair. I was his hair. Thank you. Yeah, it was, yeah, that was Mandella. It was Terrence. Wait, what?

Yeah, Terrence Howard and Jennifer Hudson, they were Winnie and Nelson, Maine. It was five Mandela's. Itris was Mandela. Wait, we're going to take care of apartheid, Maine. So wait, so then that's the question. How can there be five Mandela's but only one Jackie? Wait, was this a joke?

No, dude, it's on Netflix. Jennifer Hudson? Jennifer Hudson? Did she have an accent? Yes. Yeah, man. Yeah, if you want to call it that. And then, and Terrence Howell was Mandela.

Mendele? I got to play this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's a real question. How do you have five Mandela's and one Jackie Robinson or one James Brown? A statewide spite. How does that work? The state has the power. Like here's a thing, no. You cannot do a film, a biopic about Jimmy Hendrix and drugs being it. You're not going to get the music. Oh, his sister, Janie.

You're not going to. The state will not give you the rights to Jimmy Hendrix music if you have drugs in the film. I'm not going to get it. So they just don't want a Jimmy movie done? Right. No, it was one done, though. And that's been a couple done. It was the one with wood hairs.

That's right. And then it was on the Andre joined. Right. Had no music in it. Yes. That's, wow. So with. Let's go to school this.

Okay. I go ahead. Well, I was going to say with Prince's recent death, is that something that you've thought about? Or do you want to be going to say if you had? What actor out there could even kill it? Andre Holland. For me. Wait, Spike about to answer.

Documentary. Yes. I cannot do a feature film about Michael Jackson. I cannot do a film about Prince. Especially, it's just too, first of all, it's too soon. Right, right. And then who are. Are you going to cast?

Who do you think, I think Andre Holland would kill it. He was in, he was in that show The Nick. He was also, Jackie Robertson. His first movie was Miracle Saint Anna. Yes! He was a miracle scene. That's right, he was, yep.

No, he's serious. Yeah. I think Andre is awesome, man. He got some soup coolers. Oh, hell yeah. You feel right? We're calling PSS, us ladies. We'll talk about complexion, though.

Right. I'm sorry. He's so too dark. He's too dark. Can I put this out there? I think that we just can't discount our pigmentation. But wait a minute now. Listen, listen, listen.

And Michael Max now. They were close. They were close. They were close. They were close. They were close. They were close. All right, I'm putting this out there, Spike.

Yes. I'm putting this out there. I believe in my heart and hearts. And I told this to her, first time I told this to her, she laughed. Second time I told her, she's like, oh, okay. Now I think she hears me. I believe there is an Oscar waiting for you and for Leslie Jones. If you guys do a Nina Simone proper, I believe she is Nina Simone.

You know what? I see it. I totally see it. I think she could pull it. She's got the attitude. She is Nina Simone. Talk about putting on a spot. Okay.

But I think she could do it. That's it. You don't have to say nothing? I'm putting it out there, Spike. I believe that Leslie Jones. In the position she is in Hollywood right now, if the right screenplay and the right film, you behind it,

I believe you two can ride each other to Oscar glory. She's very talented. She's very talented. I think you two can ride each other to Oscar glory and get the proper Nina Simone story out there. Will the estate allow it? Now I'm stuck on this estate shit. I mean, her daughter's,

but her daughter doesn't run the estate. He just made Spike do a movie. He ain't even think about it. But the state that come on out, They didn't like what's her name? Well, who did? Yeah, because her daughter's not a connect. Like, the caretaker had, you know, heard.

That's what they were, okay. That was his story. He stole his story that happened to have Nina Simone image. Especially after the documentary. It's like, come on, bitch, I'm sorry. Yeah. Anyway, back to Prince really quick. Has the estate been in contact with you?

I guess they're looking for somebody to do a... The documentary. They have the footage from the 83 First Avenue concert where they filmed or where they recorded Purple Ring. I already told them. Oh, okay. Well, the audience hasn't heard this story. No, no, no, I'm just talking to you as a friend.

Like, I beg them to go to spite. Yeah. I've not heard from this state. Yeah, they're looking for somebody to do a documentary around this footage that they have of this concert where they half of Purple Rain was recorded. So I think that would be perfect for you after the Michael Jackson docks. Yes. I would love to see it through your eyes.

So just putting that out there too. And I want to thank you for being very helpful with the, with Off the Wall and Bad 25. Talk, man. You're one of my favorite storytellers. That's... Nah, but you got stories too, man. Don't know. Hey, Spike, I have some old footage for my bar mitzvah. I'd like you to edit.

Possibly put together some kind of a... Something for my family. Give it to spill bird. We got another music video to talk about. What? Anita Baker. Which one? No in the world.

Oh, it's from beginning to it. No. No. No one in the world. Because you're selling socks also at the end of that video as well. Yeah, we shot that the world famous Apollo. Which will soon be called the Beacon. Really?

No, I'm saying, digification. Don't play. Don't play. I'm about to end the episode right now. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from

basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down

a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed.

That's correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Spike. Yes. Turn her mic off. School days. Yes. School days was my four years and more.

jam packed into a homecoming weekend. Yes, it was. Now, okay, I've probably watched all of your directed commentaries at least 10 times each. Why? And... Poor K. Because, no.

Who are Spanish listening? Point K. No, well, even the criterion do the right thing. Like, there's so... To me, that's better than college. And, you know... You can learn. I listen to direct his comments.

I mean, you learn. Yes. For me, real quick, one of the most important things I ever learned, Curisawa, the great Japanese film in Curacao, was in New York promoting Ron. And as journalists, I think it was New York Times, journalists asked him, Mr. Curisauer, you're considered one of the greatest filmmakers ever, a master cinema. At your age, like 85, 86, don't quote me, he said, what else can you learn in cinema?

And Curasawa said there's still a universe of sending for me to learn. When I read that shit, I said, the minute you should not stop learning until you're dead. That's what I learned. And also,

Roshamone is really the foundation where she's going to have it came from. Roshamun. Oh, his film. This film. In that film, Roshamone, there's a rape and a murder,

and several people witness it tell their story and left up to the audience. to decide who's telling the truth. Well, she's going to have it. You have these three men who sleep on, though, and they're telling the audience, you know, what they think about her.

So that's where that came from. Are your NYU classes similar to this where you break down your filmography and you tell the... Mostly other films. Yeah, mostly other films, though. I don't want to be just thinking about myself, though. Okay, okay.

Now, okay, I got to... School days casting, that's where you were. Finally school days. Yes, yes, yes. Now, I just got to jump to the scene. Now, when you were given the director's commentary on the infamous... Want to be versus jigaboo? The dancing or...

The fight. The Greek show. The Greek show. Step show. I mean, I was watching it frame by frame, and why did you keep the cameras running? Because that shit was good. Tell everybody what happened. Okay, so basically the legend of the story...

Let's spike tell it. So why did you decide to separate them? All right. Was it really finances or did you have a mastermind that? No. This is mastermind. I'm sorry, I'm too heated. School days.

I'm like you. School days was the first film with a lot of people. Right. And we were going to be shooting on location. And I really want to keep the friction between the two groups, the wannabes and the jigibos. Because they're young, their first film, I don't want to become too chummy. So I made sure that the wannabes got a better hotel And the jigsibu's got the less hotel

So right then and there That's where friction Friction they know Did they know? They didn't know that So you just found out the thing So the culmination of that friction happened During the Greek show

The Step show as the fellows are coming on stage brand from our the great great brand for our cellars grabs Tisha Camel's head and pushes to her crotch Oh wow

That's what she's doing in the scene When she So when The Gamma saw that Then it was on So it was not posed to be a fight I said Ernest Do not turn out of that mud over the camera

So at what point Keep rolling. Keep rolling. At one point, how long did that fight, that real-ass fight last until... Until we ran out of film. Like, was secure... Why? It was filled. So we ran out of film with a mask.

You didn't stop it. No. You weren't scared that they were like, I'm going fucking home. Or did you save it for last or... We did not cut off the camera to the film ran out of the magazine. Wow. So there was more? Where in the shooting schedule was that scene?

the middle. Yeah, you should it in order? Oh, okay. It was a definite bad blood between the two groups. So at what point did you reveal like, ha ha, okay,

this is what I really did, guys. Never did. Why? They still made each other. I found out before they did. I mean, they got regularly, but I didn't make a confession, no.

Did they buy it once they found out? Or they just felt like, oh, you being a cheap motherfucker and you like Jasmine guy and just gamble more than. They just, it really, I mean, you're dark skin

I mean, you grow up, I mean, you grow up with shit before you got, before you got cast in the film anyway. True that. You know, so we just want to play in this whole coloration thing. Did you write the, uh, the chance your eyes are blue, but you ain't white.

No, they did. Straight, cause you brought to laugh. No, I think that was Tise and Jasmine that did that. And the Gamma, did you say Gamma, Gamma, did you write that? That was just, I was a fellas. Wow.

Wow. So you let them write their own stuff. That was brand from ourselves, I think. Wow. They went to the side and was like, yo, this is what we're going to do. Gamma, Gamma, Gamma. They worked in all their steps.

They did that stuff themselves. Can't use some of them words no more now. Did you come under budget or over budget? We were under budget on that one. Well, dealing with Columbia, it was Columbia Pictures, right? So dealing with a real, what do you call?

A real studio. What was there? Because I definitely remember, like, all in Ebony and Jet, there was like, you know, campus we disavow ourselves Oh, that was Morehouse.

I went to Moore House and after two weeks I'm a third-year-Ration of Moorhouse man. After two weeks we're kicked off campus. But Clark gave you love. Clark gave you love and Morris Brown. Spellman never let us come on campus. Of course not.

I'm surprised you're not as boogie as you're not. It's crazy. And Morris Brown, which is long as close. Rest in peace. We shot there too. But here's the President of Warhouse name was Howard Gloucester and at the

I met with them after they kicked off campus and he was mad at me and he said why'd you cast that man as a president of mission college? To play. Joe Seneca. And he said because he looks like a Sambo.

Wow. Wow. What the fucker. And that's why he got the situation. They got him more. No, my. So everything that we were depicting

in the film? Was it happening while we were making it? That's crazy. He called Joe Seneca Asambo. Wow. That was a great actor. Steve, you're laughing too hard.

I don't know what Asambo is. It's just funny. Shut up. Steve. Time for a trip to the National Museum of African American history and culture. It's time for a trip.

It's a word that ends with by it was. No, but you can't, you're in good company now, but you didn't always. We should warn, Steve, you can't always laugh at that word depending on who you're with. I can laugh whatever I want. All right?

Even if you just reap the brick because of it. Let's go. Keep it moving. The EU, how did they get in? She's trying to help you. I really am. There's a really good story online about Marcus talking about the struggle

that it was to make the butt. Oh. Yeah. Of which. Why was this? Well, because the thing was it was like the oral history of the butt. Yeah, that was a good article.

and I guess the EU guys were sort of like, well, you know, we're grateful for the single, but, you know, that wasn't real D.C. go-go, and we wanted to show, you know, what the... And Marker was just like, well, you guys just do 20-minute jams with really no structure, and you're basing on other people's material. Hey, now, Mr. Miller. You from D.C.? Yes. Sorry.

She's, yeah. D.C. No, she's... You're fully known as Chocolate City, now vanilla swirl. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's butterscots sitting in

True And Harlem In Brixton in London You can go around the world It's not to be Englewood It has to be said that You know At least from a good

Four or five year films Like very iconic Thames songs Do we talk about the story of the butt? Yes please Yeah So True story

The premiere of She's going to have in D.C. and after park was the 930 club Ah man And DC And the EU was the band Wow I had never even heard go-go

In my life Really And when I went there I said oh shit Yeah And I was still I was writing And she's gonna happen

I was writing school days at the time I said yo we gotta put We gotta put EU in the movie And so I knew Marcus through Raymond Jones, the late great Raymond Jones. And so, crazy thing. I'm a big, I mean, the color scene

and she's going to have is a homage to Wizard of Oz. So I said, we've got to put this part, Oh, Leo. And then I go see sign of the times, he did that too. I was like, you but a fucking prince. So you wanted the song to be based on... The sign of the time came out the same time. In school days.

You're right, because I opted to see Sign of the Times before. My friend went to go to school days. I went to sign of the times, and we told each other about the film. Damn. That's crazy. I said, how did you think he must have liked Wiz of Oz 2?

Yeah, I mean, he's been doing that chance. He did that twice, though. Yeah, he's been doing that chance a lot. What other song did they do it? I can't remember. No, I mean, it's. It's going to be a beautiful night. Is that?

And, I mean, he, all throughout 86, he was, that was his call-and-response thing, like, in concert a lot. So he just captured it on, it's going to be a beautiful night. Yeah, yeah. Yo, two butt questions. The butt. Number one, how long was that video shoot? Was it like? One day.

Okay. We shot that at Brooklyn Tech. Ah. And did you know at the time? Because me and my girlfriend were literally just watching this video a couple weeks ago. We were like, yo, we didn't even realize that they were holding up the red, black, and green flag. And to this day. A lot of young people don't even know.

I invented that dance, The Butt. Did you tell them what the title should be? Yes. I said, I want the song we called The Butt, and we got to dance. My mother's grave. I told Marcus, the name of the song, got to be the butt, and we got the dance, and he did the rest. Wow. Spike Lee.

Sugar Bear. That's a lot like that for the whole song now, though. If I was smart, I would have taken production of producer credit. What I was going to say, you know. Everyone else did. And they didn't even write overdue. So you play that party today?

It still works. It still works. It still works. That came out of 88. I have a school days question. Yes. So I understand that there was a little tension between you and Tisha Campbell's mother.

Oh, yeah. Did that ever get resolved? Yes. Since or no, during the filming of school days. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was the song, Won't Be Long Tonight. We felt should be the, whatever the group was called,

but she said had to be T.C. Camel. The race. He said she'd be the race. Yeah, yeah. And she said it should be T-Campbell and the Rays. Oh, that was her beef. I thought she's mad. Her daughter had to lick somebody's part.

So she wasn't mad as that. It just... Hey, if... Swear to God. If Tisha Campbell walked the room now, she would curse every time she... I hate you, Spike. Even today.

I mean... The shit came out 88. Okay. She's laughing. Scout? How you know that? I will say that I will say that

Go ahead, go ahead. I mean, second. Well, I'll throw a purple rain away. Your love scenes and your film. Yes. But there's a reason why Tisha Campbell

she wouldn't do a sex scene. So that was the sexy she was going to get. So I had to come on with I had to think of something freaky. So I said, well, you got to increase in his head. The part. She would not do a love scene.

Now you got that's a lot. Her mother didn't want her to do it. So I said, all right. Then you got to lick the part and big brother on my teeth's head. Yo, but Rachel made up for it. And that even made it worse. I will tell you, though, that's like more of a freakier. That's an upside down Spider-Man kiss for black.

people. That's the ice on the nipples. The ice on the nipples. Thank God for the left nipple. Thank God for the right nipple. Oh, what about the kneecap? Take God for the kneecaps. Thank God for kneecaps.

Thank God for thine. Again, that Rachel's sex, Nuff scene was also nice with Brick Mother on my team. It was beautiful. I just remember it in my head. The one with Rachel. Dap and Rachel.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Stevie one, my man, Keith John. Keith John. The song, I only can be me. Oh, that song. right there. You know, Stevie's saying at my wedding, my wife and I.

Really? As she walked in the aisle. I read about that, yes. Sang ribbon to the sky. Oh, man. Wow. We're still married, too. Thank you, Stevie. Yeah.

Riverside Church. Boss BLA, A shit. All right, don't you? What? We had another moment. We had another moment. Now, you brought Keith John back on, on Do the Right Thing.

Why Don't We Try? Yeah. Join. I love that. that record. All right. Let's move to the, maybe we'll get to six movies by the end of the interview. But we should also note, was that the first time Ozzie Davis was introduced into?

Yes, Coach Odle. Okay. I just, because Dennis, I want to make sure I'm getting all the, because the crew starts accumulating. Yes. I'm sure we'll have a lot of regret. Regret questions. Man, come on. Why didn't we ask?

Okay. Do the right thing. That's a perfect screen. First of all, thank you, Spike, because, okay. Okay. Okay, I hate being that guy that can predict his own questions. We had the crystal ball in NFL. We talked about global warming. I mean, all that stuff.

Yo, I was going to say, I showed that. We were a nos de dom. Motherfucking Nosidamas. Yeah, I showed that movie to my son, my 11 year old. This was like literally like a month ago. Because when that came out, I was, I think I'm the same age. I was like 10. So he's 11.

So I was like, I'm going to show you this movie. That movie, and the thing I've always liked about all your stuff, I saw him as a kid, and it's like, it's one thing, but seeing it as an adult has a completely different meaning. And I would say that do the right thing is one movie where it is almost more relevant now than it was when it came out. And I mean, even like, and the thing that I thought was so brilliant about it, even watching it, you know, now is like it is a,

because I watched it and I made him write an essay. And simple, the only question was. Summer Homework. Yeah, hell yeah. And so the question was, you know, do you think Mookie did the right thing? And there is no right or wrong answer to that question. Like, you could argue it a million different ways. And so...

To answer your question, though, thank you for showing your son that early age at that age to film. But no black person has ever asked me why the movie threw the garbage can out through the window. Only white people have asked me for the question. Now, one single black person ever asked me why did Mookie throw the garbage can through the window?

Because we are all Mookiei Matter of fact, I still pay Bill still pay Steve that way 100. 100. 200. It's more like

$4,700, $4,800. $5,000. Was this movie the first time did you have people in mind for characters or did it still just? No, I had,

I mean, The film Messenger, which the debacle never happened. It was supposed to star, John Carlo, and Fishburn. So, I mean, I knew I had to put in a film after the success of, of, uh, she's got to happen. Yeah, because I was thinking about that. Fishburn turned on the roll array around him. He didn't want to do it.

What? Oh, wow. He said, no, I can't. Like, I'm shooting the King of New York or like, I don't like it. He didn't like the role. Bill Nunn's size made it like Yeah he definitely yeah Was it true

Did Danny Ayello didn't want to take picks With Chuck D for press I never heard I never heard that either I never heard that either Didn't you originally Mike Ayello for De Niro I wanted Rob De Niro

Do it but he didn't want to do it Wow But It turned up I mean it would have been Here's a thing though With De Niro When the greatest acts ever

But it would have it would have tipped the scale would have been to robber the narrow movie instead of an ensemble piece. Right. So, okay, for starters, as, and I was saying that, I hate the fact that I can predict all these episodes of Quest Love Supreme because I can't go an episode without mentioning Soul Train. And my, in my knowledgeable wisdom of it. But, you know, for the longest, I never knew what Rosie Perez's name was.

Wow. Because, I mean, you know. They don't give the names of the dance. She, I mean, she did a scramble board once, but, you know, I didn't realize that until, like, much later, like, four or five years ago that, oh, there's Rosie Perez. So just for the longest, it was like, me and my best friend in school was, like, our girl. Because even on Soul Train, she was a star. And it wasn't, like, growing in the puberty or whatever, like, oh, my God, who's this woman, Dan? It's just that she stuck out literally.

I got a story. More than... So how did you discover Rosie Perez? There's two stories. Rosie's story. My story is a real one, Rosie. So again, it comes back to school days. Okay.

School days is a hit. The butt is number one song, R&B. So I'm having a birthday party in L.A. I forgot. Funky. was named that club Funky something Anyway

I'm all on you guys Anyway so Funky Samba I was like not Steve The club The club is called Funky something Right

And EU We fly EU to L.A. for the party Right And so We had a butt contest A butt dance

contest And his woman is on the speaker dancing Rosie says that she was screaming saying that this is sex or something else

but she was dancing she wasn't doing that stuff really just the truth and so I tell security to get this lady off the speaker because she's going to fall and break her neck

okay so they bring her down and she starts to curse me me out. I've never heard this. I knew she was Puerto Rican but the way I never heard anybody speak like to poor my motherfucking life. Right, right.

So I said, where are you from? She says, Brooklyn. So I'm from Brooklyn. So where are you from? I said, where neighbor? She's four green. I said, I live Fort Green. And I was right and do the right thing at the time. Right. And that moment I said, I'm going to make Muki's girlfriend Puerto Rican. at that point

Thank God for the left At that point Did you know You were going to play Mookiee? Oh yeah Okay Yeah But I knew

But I said She has to be I mean She had to audition Right Right But I still knew That she was going to be

Play Mookie's girlfriend Tina That's real story And you knew that A Star was born I knew that I knew that She was going to be great

In this role I did not I cannot predict For the nap, I knew that she would be great as Mookieie's girlfriend team. But at that point, you didn't say like, oh, this is an Oscar caliber actress. I mean, she's made a name for herself in the... We never talk about Oscars. That's not the...

You're right. We don't talk about that stuff. Well, not that. But when you see new talent that... But I don't... And a lot of times people first films are yours... But I don't say she's going to an Oscar. I don't do that.

So do you direct... Like, are you the director that will... You know, I know some, what's his name? Who directed seven? David Fincher. David Fincher. So Fincher, especially on House of Car, like his episode of House of Car, he's been known to do 15, 16, 17 takes. No, no, no, no.

Knowing that the last three are finally going to be what he wants. That 70, 80 takes. For you? No. For him. Oh, yeah. I've heard that, yeah, he'll spend 15 to 17 now. First of all, I don't have, I never had the budget to do that.

We got to go. Okay. And it doesn't need, I mean. So you're saying that riot scene was shot in one shot? You had one shot to just. No, it was like two nights. We had, you had the riot, then you had, excuse me, when the fire trucks come and the war, stuff like that.

So for something that tense, especially when you are with multiple cameras and that sort of thing, I know there's a moment where it's like, you know, fucking you motherfucker. Okay, cut. And then Garna Carly. It's like, okay, so everything's nice. And like, do characters break.

Now, I don't know for Garna Carly Al Spizito said that because of the... For who? What is that? What? Bugging out. Bugging out. Jean-Carlo. Teach me.

Jean-Carlo. Jean-Carlo. Jean-Carrlo. Okay. John-Col Esposito. Take two. No, fucking keep it. My fault is John Carlo.

Jean-Carlal-Ele. So, he mentioned that during the filming that him and Danny did some bonding because of their Italian connection and talked to each other Italian.

His father's Italian. Right. And then there was Italian American. There was a scene during that scene where the radio gets beat and finally, you know... Baseball bat. Yeah. I think initially

Danny decided to curse him out in Italian and said something to Jean Carly that really just infuriated him and even when you yell cut he was just like I never heard that story what I would tell you is that there were certain words that people

didn't want to say and so we had when John the scene where Danny has the bat and the close above him Jean Carlo and Bill Nunn were standing on the side of the camera And they were, you know, exchanging.

And when Jean-Carlo called him a fat Gennie bastard, that's when Danny exploded. Oh, so was Danny that was upset? He wasn't like to be called Fat Gennie Bastert. And the fact that it wasn't in the script. Oh, I mean, that's... You're off-script by then. You just go.

You know, just say the worst things you can say. So you have a lot of off-script moments. So in your screenplays, it's just like, you know, we'll improvise. No, you don't write. Improvise, but you know that comes to, in rehearsal, you see where we can improvise there. So here's the thing, though, not everybody can improvise. So you have to know who can do it, who can't. And you work on improvisation during rehearsal.

And heated moments, people are going to get off script because it's really emotional, and you're not really, worried about the exact words that are on that are scripted but at the table read through are they as heated as it will be on the no no because I don't am not for my but does that worry you like

okay this isn't as heated as I thought it was going to be I don't want acting at a read through I just want to hear the words I tell nobody act just read the words because except for auditions when you when you audition people you're not auditioning the whole film.

You're just different scenes. So at the read-through, it's the first time you get to hear the words in the entirety. There's a strange phenomenon. Reading the script is not the same as actors saying the word. So many times you might think that

you wrote something that's good, but when an actor reads, it's like, oh shit, I've got to change that. So during my read-through, I'm rewriting, I'm like, I've got to keep up because, like, well, I'm crossing shit out. We've got to change. It's got to change that, I can change this. How good

of an improv person was Robin Harris in those moments? Oh man, sweet big Willie. Yes. Here's the thing. Robin was at this. I forgot the name of the club.

But Robbie Reed told me again, the castor, he said, you've got to see this guy, Robin. In L.A.? In L.A. In L.A. So this club,

I know the club. The club, to go to the bathroom, you had to go off the stairs. next to the stage. Oh, no. In the back of the club,

I know where this is going. In the back of the club, Robin Harris had a guy with a spotlight. Oh, shit. So he was going like this, snap his fingers and point. And I was there one night, Robin Harris tore Mike Tyson apart.

Wow. This was Mike Tyson was these. Mike Tyson, yeah. I mean, you were, read a piss of your pants that had to walk past Robin on the stage to go to the back. I mean more better blues. I know

we're jumping ahead. I mean, I made shit. Even if you weren't working, if you were acting, you weren't working that day, but you saw Robin Harris was on the call sheet, you will come. You will come. You will be there.

I remember he told Denzel, he said Denzel, your head looks like a question mark. I mean, I figured that whole scene at the after party and he just fucking with everybody

he like, shut the fuck, you know, that whole thing. I was like, I mean, he, oh man, he's a great, great loss. I better not catch a naked on pity. Those are all ad-lips.

Man, look. I mean, people like that, you just got to let them go. That's like Jordan. Get green light. Green light. So by this point, when you're established,

Are you putting pressure on Robbie To find you the next unused gym talent Is she going to theater? It wasn't pressure because we always Stash away a couple rolls But are they You know, does Martin Lawrence know Oh, there's an audition for

Do the Right thing or is it right? Robbie found Robbill right thing was Rory Perry's first film Rom Harris' first film Martin Lawrence's first film Right Robbie found me I didn't know these people

I know I mean I found Rosie but the other people I didn't know Yo so as you're building your actor squad It seems like it's harder and harder to get to get for other actors to get in Right because like by now you said you already had Jean Carlo You already had Ruby D and Ozzy This is your squad like John Totoro Can we talk about the Totoro relationship? I was going to go there like how hard is it for your white actors

to, especially in jungle fever, how they were at the soda shop. Like, how, and I know about the controversy of Mo Better Blues, you portraying the club owners. The club owner, yeah. Moor Josh Flappers, played by Nick and John Dutro. Yes. How, we get, write that down, don't forget it.

So I want to talk about that. Okay, I got it. No, no, that's the thing. It's like, how do you, convey to them what the character is without saying like, okay, well, you're going to be the villain or, you know, play it to the hilt or, like, I mean, how do you? Here's the thing, though. The white actors that have worked with are great human beings.

These are people of artists and understand that their history and they're cool playing it because it's not like we're making shit up. Was there ever any indifference to, or not indifference or objections to, okay, well, you know, I, who, who, where did you find the what a waste guys, the two cops? The cops that killed radio, right. That were also in jungle fever. Well, one is Daniel L's son. Which one? Oh, wow. The one is not Hispanic, the taller one.

Okay. Oh, what a waste? That guy's a slender one. What's his name? I was, I knew it. Miguel San Francisco. Doval. Yeah, I was going to say, Fonte, if you knew that name, I will give you this whole show,

just be the toes. No, the taller one, like the shortest, reddish blonde hair, that's Daniels son, Rick. He's the one that choked Radio Rahim. Yeah. Oh, man. But here's the thing, though, is that people dig my work, they understand it, and they're great parts. In fact, John Dutero used to say, you know, Spike. man, I don't know.

When this, before the film came out, I said, Spike, man, I ride the subway. And he would say, Spike. The brothers come to me, give me that. They say, yo, yo, yo, yo. So they love the turtle. Oh, we love you. Yo, you messed it up so good. I don't know what they are.

I was like, wait, are you Jewish? Are you Italian? Are you scared? Their sister, too. I eat it too. I'm like, I don't. But here's a thing, no. When Moebetter claim came out, I was accused of being anti-Semitic.

Yeah. The Jewish Defense League, ADL. So my lawyer at the time, he told him, he said, Spike, this is the truth. He says, Spike, if you want to continue working Hollywood, you have to write an op-ed piece for the New York Times saying why you're not Semetic. I know it's not fair. Wow. But if you want to continue to work in this industry, and I wrote it, you could Google it.

Oh, I wish we had that kind of protection. Google it. I had, he said, you know, he was Jewish. He died. But he said, Spike, you know, you're a great filmmaker. I care for you, but if you don't write this op-ed piece saying you're not anti-Semitic, then you're done. You're done.

Wait a minute. I'm forgetting the most important character in do the right thing. Is the song fight the power? Oh, right. Yeah. I'm about to move on. How did you, you know, like when you're growing up in the era

and you just hear great music all the time, like you think like a cat like Prince will just, you know, e-breathing shit, great songs and hits, but now that I realize that it takes a craft and really a steady hand to do perfection. getting, I mean, asking a group to give you an anthem. I mean, that's some hard-ass shit to do. And what's weird is that, I guess, in later years,

when I've heard outtakes from songs that didn't make Nation of Millions, and, you know, there's like five or six or seven other public enemy related joints that... Where can I hear those? where does he get his stuff? He's hearing shit like I mean Look man By this point

Everyone knows that I'm the student Like if I came off as a shesty guy That just You know Leaked this shit online And bootleg that shit No one would trust me But look that's just a testament to

But people know that I just generally Want to know Stuff and yeah So You're a student You're a student of the music I'll share with you Bill I'm sorry I didn't know

Anyway So the point is that when I heard the other songs, I was like, wow, like, okay, so Public Enemy did have some misses. Greatest and misses. They had some misses with their hits, the songs that really resonated and the songs that were like, okay, I'm glad they kept this off the record. Yeah, but you could do that with any record, can't do it? Yeah, but now I'm just saying that the, I mean, the likelihood of them having five major life-changing songs in a row is some rare shit.

And the fourth one of their, you know, of their, of their, of their canon being Fight the Power. What, named the first? Yeah, well, I'm, Rebel without a pause to me, bring the noise. Don't believe the hype or, uh. Don't believe the height was necessary. I feel like Baseheads, I feel like Baseheads is just insane at the time that it came out. It was just unlike anything we ever heard before. Then the fourth being, fight the power and the last being, uh, welcome to the Terodone.

Sir it on. Okay. So how many songs did they submit? Did they submit other songs? They just say, like, this is your song? Well, here's a story. Hit me. I knew that I need an anthem because it's scripted every time

Ray Rahim appears on screen, he's going to have a song blasting. So every time you see the songs be blasting, so the shit got to be hitting. And knowing the tone, I knew it had to be public enemy.

So the first, Fight the Power was the second submission. Aha! There we go. Have we heard the first one? No, I don't even know. So you don't want to play it safe in the summer of 88? Like, and it would be like, okay, Rebel Without a Pause.

We'll just stick to this. I wanted a new song. And the first one wasn't hitting. Wasn't it. But. It wasn't their fault because we weren't at a point where we could show them the film. Oh, okay. So.

So an earlier time of, they saw a film. Yeah, they didn't see anything. I just, I just did have a script. I just sent him to Bill Stepney. Okay. Because Bill Steppenny lived in Fort Green, so I called him up, got my bike row four or five blocks. Here's the script. Boom.

He knows that he remembers more of the story than anybody, Bill Stepney. So you try to get him his saying it. But the second, but we got to a point where we could show him something. I don't know if we showed him a clip or the whole film, but once they saw that, Hank Shockley, them guys. Do you remember what your place or song was that you used? Your placeholder? Your placeholder song, yeah, that you used before you got their song.

Oh, you mean like, what you call, tent music. Yeah. We didn't have it. Okay. We don't have any temp music. Oh. So, because I knew that there's a thing called temp love. Yeah.

Demoitis. Yeah. Demoitis. Oh, that's what they call to the music. Yes. I hate demoitis, man. So I don't want to contaminate my ears. So I mean, I knew it's music.

I'd have to fake it. When I heard Fight the Power for the first time. What was that like, man? I said, thank you, Jesus. Yeah. Because this was the whole It summed up the whole motherfucking movie

And you didn't ask for none of that Elvis and John Wayne And none of that shit Like you just Nah, none of the do with that Did you name the song and say I need a song called Fight the Power No

They got that from Lysley brothers Oh No but I mean like the way that you said the book All I said was I need an anthem That's a tall order Spike. And that's why what the public enemy? They delivered. Shult deep, flame of flame.

Terminator X. We have Mobedo. Okay. The pizzeria that burnt down the fire, which I assume that you burnt it down for real. Yes. How did y'all control that since you weren't

on a studio like? Like, what's stopped it from spreading to? Yeah, the fire department's there. Okay. And you got But the fire department that was in the film Were they the actual fire department? Or were those actors? That's weird to

Okay But that That song I mean Sometimes I don't need I can't even Can you imagine

Do the right thing Without fight the power It's not the same movie It's not the same movie It's another character in the movie It's a fucked up movie I mean But that

But that, it was a gift. It's a gift from God. That's all, I mean, you should ask Chuck and those guys, you know, their version. Eventually, I'll get to that. Yeah, yeah. Oh, side note. Spike's film, inspired, do the right thing, inspired. The song that was originally the roots before Scott Storch gave it to his girlfriend, Little Kim.

Oh, lighters up. The song that will eventually be Liders Up. Wow. Well, when we got to the studio, Do the Right Thing was on television, and Samuel Jackson was Senior Latt, Seen Love Daddy, and he was doing roll call, and when I heard that drum be at the top, I said, yeah, I want to remake that shit, and so

I remade it. Hey, that's my father. Oh, you saw from his daddy. See Scott Storch. He didn't play the drum. I remade. We made that, John. and Scott did the piano.

And then here's the crazy shit. Tarek stayed by to write the first verse. This is going to be like the first thing off tipping point. And then Scott was like, we're going to somebody's birthday party. I didn't realize it. That night is when I had dinner with O.J. Simpson. Long story of that night. And that was the first time I remember.

No, literally, we made that beat. And then we went to some friends of ours, a birthday party and O.J. and Buster Rhymes and me and Scott Stort sitting at the small kids' table at the Thanksgiving. It was very... Yeah. And we were like the four black people there, so we just sat at the small table. And you're not counting Scott.

All I got from that night was that he said that, you know, the way that the rappers the way that Bob Dylan and was it Patty Smith you know champion Hurricane Carter that us

rappers need to get the fuck don't finish that sentence champion he didn't even come to the main man Mark you kick me yes man get the fuck out of it

get the very surreal night anyway thank you Spike oh god whoa whoa whoa Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoy that of Encore presentation of Spike Lee's interview on QLS Classic.

Stay tuned for next go-round when we ask him more questions about his history behind the camera. Spike Lee Part 2 coming up next, QLS Classic. Questlove Supreme is a production of I-Heart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at

Pandora. For more podcasts from I-Heart Radio, visit the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

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I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year.

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