The Questlove Show - QLS Classic: Terri Lyne Carrington

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

In honor of Women's History Month, travel back to a 2022 conversation with the legendary prodigy drummer and visionary Terri Lyne Carrington, as she shares her stories of being a confident child amongst the greats. She breaks down earning the respect of the architects of Jazz, working on the Arsenio Hall Show, and appearing in Beat Street. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clivert Show on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, all. wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Vodam. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo.

My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be.

Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Hi, this is Sugar Steve from Questlove Supreme. This March, we're celebrating women's history at QLS, something that we've done for years. Back in March of 2022, we spoke to Terry Lynn Carrington about her years as a jazz prodigy, some of the prejudice she faced as a young female drummer playing with elder males,

and how she kicks down the doors for others as founder and artistic director of the Berkeley Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice. As a jazz guy, I really enjoyed this episode. Whether you heard it when it was first released, or this is your first time, we hope you enjoy. Ladies and gentlemen, another episode of Questlove Supreme. I'm your host, Questlove. We got Team Supreme in the head house, Von Tigolo. Wow, new, if Bill Sherman were here, he would do. notice that you're in yet another room in the house? Yeah, this is my studio.

It's just easier for me here. I normally record my living room, but my son is going to go to school downstairs. So I just bring it upstairs to the studio. Do it here. Wait, virtual school is still going on? Or is it optional now? As well, we did, yeah, it's option.

We did it. Yeah, I'm saying, he'll be going back to classroom for the new year. But for this year, it was just the numbers around here. We were crazy. So we put it in virtual. Smart. We got to be smart. man. Steve, where are you at right now? I'm where you are in the 67 degrees at 30 Rock.

We're freezing in 30 Rock right now. Yeah. Keep that COVID out. It's cold. I know. Yeah, freeze the COVID out. Definitely. Uh, Laiae, where are you at with your black art behind you? Lemur all day? That's where I'm here. Yo, Laia, I forgot to tell you. You was here. I took my first visit to Lamar Park. You know what? I can't stand you. I don't. I want to I only had like 35 minutes to run the Juneteenth. You was at the Juneteenth Festival. I felt like I was in a legit episode of Insecure, yo. Somebody told me they saw Black Thought.

I thought they was lying. It was awesome. Yeah, I went to Juneteenth for half a second. Then I went to the body roll party like in another side of L.A. Like Saturday, man. It was one of the nicest blackest experiences I've ever had in Los Angeles. People don't know about that. I'm glad you said that.

I forgot. Yeah, you're a Lamert Parker. Did you enjoy it? I loved it. This was an amazing Juneteenth weekend. I mean, thank God we came through. It was looking sketchy for a minute because of Walmart and them, but it came through nicely. Oh, that damn ice cream.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Billy Higgins had the world stage there. So you probably, if this is your first time in Lamert Park, you, yeah, then you never experienced that. But that was really dope. back in the day. I'm learning.

I'm learning. Well, you know, if we bring the festival back to Los Angeles, I think we're going to travel with it. So we're looking at like Texas and other spots. But I definitely want to do another June team. Oh, God. Yeah. Yes, you did.

Yes, you did. You did it. It's okay. Well, there's nothing exclusive about wanting to spread the Juneteenth love around. Anyway, y'all, as I was saying, you know, I would say that this year for me has been an awesome year for bucket listing. And I'm checking, I guess you can say

I'm checking a lot of my musical heroes, bringing them on the show and nerd out on them. And our guest today is absolutely no exception. I'll say that she's probably the first young person,

male or female, the first young person that I ever saw on a drum set. And I guess at the time when I first I forget the name of the show It was like on PBS like Rebop or something like that I forget what it was But it was definitely one of those like local Boston

Shows or whatever And to see a young kid On a drum set Definitely made an impression on me When I was a kid I forget what year it was Like I was like six or seven when I first saw you I think you were like 12, 13 or whatever

But she's literally done it all Grammys college professor, two-time late-night bandleader, activist producer, collaborated with such luminaries like the great Clark Terry, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock. I know that you have to be in the meditation if you have you collaborating with those two. But I'm a bad Buddhist. Yeah, Esperanza Spalding, the whole mosaic project with Diana Crawl and and the likes, Al Jaro, Stan Gets, Clark Terry, Woody Shaw, I can go on and on and on.

This has been a long time coming. Thank you for your patience because this is one of these episodes where, you know, because of the courses and events of my life in the last month or so, I've had to put this off at least three or four times. You've been very patient. Finally, I can say, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Questlove Supreme, Terry Lynn Carrington. Thank you. Yes. Appreciate it.

Thank you. How are you today? I'm great. It's my pleasure talking to you. I'm a big fan, and I love everything that you do. So the admiration is mutual. We've never had an in-depth heart-to-heart-heart conversation. So whenever I hear through other people like, oh, you know, Terri's this, what's up, or whatever.

You know, occasionally you've come by, like, I've seen you play a few gigs or whatever, and I'm still mind-bloom. There's always this thing where, you know, jazz musicians are so. So not above the fray, but just like above whatever is below them as far as pop music is concerned or whatever. It's all one thing. It's all black music. True. I mean, it's all comes from the blues. So there was something, something would be wrong with me if I didn't appreciate what you do.

Thank you. That would be like, if I had a jazz friend that didn't appreciate you, I would be looking at them side. waves. Well, I thank you for that. I appreciate it. Where are you talking to us right now from? You have a very interesting background. It looks like a mall and a prison at the same time. I have a few backgrounds. I'm at home, but that's just my Berkeley background. Here's another Berkeley background. Yes. Here's an animated one with, I don't know, who's that, Shikafiosi Viread and Alice Coltrane. Here's one. I just want to see Obama drive. the mic.

When I'm missing my grandmother. Nice. Here's our slogan. You can't really see it, but it's jazz without patriarchy. Oh, and this one you might recognize, this is from Seoul, because you know, I was a consultant on Seoul. Yes. You knew that, yeah. I know.

I know. Like, they went above and beyond the call of duty to ask every jazz luminary for their advice. Yeah, it was fun. doing that. I was doing some meetings. The first one, Herbie was at. I was probably the only one in the room that, you know, might have a difference in opinion, you know, with Herbie and be able to actually say it. Right. You know what I mean?

Because everybody gets scared. So. Speak up. Right. Yeah, you know. Wow. And here's my biggest mentor. Man.

Yeah. So anyway. We just had him on the show. Sounds to Wayne shorter. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, cool. I was going to say, we've, I was shocked at the.

of feedback we got for that particular episode. Like, a lot of heavy jazz heads hit us and kind of thanked us for asking questions that we normally aren't normally asked, you know, in other images. Yeah. Just letting him talk. That's what we did. We let him talk. Exactly.

That's the right thing. So I'm going to start with you, Terry, the way I always start the episode. Can you tell me what your first musical memory was? Wow. You know, they happened so long ago that it's kind of like a movie that I'm a part of that I watched and it feels real because I watched it, but was I really there? You know what I mean? Like, I played tambourine when I was five years old on stage with Rosson Roland Kirk, and that was probably the first time I was on stage. How many sexist did he play?

Always, at least three, until he had a stroke. And then I would see him after that. And then he played with one hand, one to saxophone. But he might have even worked, too, with the one hand. Right. You know. Was any of that surreal to you? I mean, with most kids that I see, especially kids that are, I guess you can say, progeny of, like, other,

I know that your father and your grandfather were musicians as well. So oftentimes, you know, at least there's a realization moment of what you're really into, but that usually comes in your teens. But in the beginning, it's just like, hey, this dad and this granddad and here's some musicians around the house. But did anything strike you odd about this guy with dread, or I don't know if he had dreadlocks back then, but playing three saxophones at the same time,

like nothing seemed odd about that to you? Yeah, but you know, when you're young, you don't really pay attention to all that. Like, you're just doing you, and I was having fun. and I was getting attention. So I knew I was different from the other, you know, elementary school kids that I was hanging out with because Ebony came to school to take pictures of me, you know, when I was 11. What a flex? Listen.

What was home like after that? Yeah. Well, I mean, from the black kids, you know, there might have been, I don't know, six or seven in my class. So, of course, they knew what was happening. The other kids, I'm not sure they knew what Ebony was. Where did you grow up? Where were you born? In Medford, Massachusetts.

How far is that from Boston? It's anyone outside of New England, like Massachusetts, just like Boston and then a bunch of suburbs. Where are new additions from? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Roxbury. Oh, oh, damn. You grew up in Roxbury?

Oh, hell no. Okay. I thought I could, you know, go to Roxburgh. My dad would remind me, you know, you're from Westbury. Medford. But our area of town, West Medford, was the most heavily settled black area outside of Boston. So, like, for instance, in my high school's 4,000 people in a high school, close to 4,000. And at the time, when I was in high school, they were with 365 black kids, which is not quite even 10%. But when we had lunch, you know, I'm sitting with 200,000.

black kids. So it felt like it was, you know, it was a black environment, you know, for our circle. But was Boston the south of the north? Again, like, I'm so triggered by anything to do with Massachusetts. I just naturally think that Massachusetts is just one of these states that escaped, you know, the Confederate, you know, just based on what we've learned about it. But like in your childhood. Was it like that at all? I mean, I came like right after the busing situation. And there was like a bit of a riot at my high school about, you know, surrounded by some kind of race or about some kind of racial incident. But I haven't right before I got to high school. And I mean, you know, I was going

into Boston weekly at least. I got a scholarship to Berkeley when I was 11. And I was going weekly. Yeah, I was going to say, you went to Berkeley while still in junior high school, correct? Well, I wasn't. So I was, yeah, elementary when I started. But that, I went once a week. So it wasn't like that big deal, you know? I went after school once a week and took private lessons and ensemble.

That's a big deal. Special. But what I mean is it wasn't like stressful. Berkeley reject. that's a big deal. Well, that's their loss. Right. Damn right.

I'm not bitter at all. But what I must say, though, is, you know, Boston in a weird way is kind of the most liberal and conservative places you'll ever be. It's a total, you know, dichotomy of these things. And everybody hates the Celtics and all that. But, you know, nobody ever talks about how we had the first black coach and one of the first black players. Hmm, I never thought that about the Celtics, for real? Yeah, yeah. Wow.

So I'm just saying, like, there's a lot of things wrong racially with what's happened here. But, you know, it's not all bad. And there were, you know, places like where I grew up that had heavily populated black areas. And it was very, you know, rich in culture. All right. So if ever the Patriots or the Celtics win again, I'll add. you to my new edition pile like, okay, well, at least you seven are happy. That and universal health care, Mayor, Massachusetts did that first, too. Remember free health care.

Yep. Yep. I mean, you know, if you're from a place, there's got to be some love, you know, like I used to, I used to hate to go to Philadelphia. But, you know, I got, I got happier as I went, you know, so as I learned more about the city, really, you know, I used to not like Chicago, you know, whatever. Like, you have these experiences, and it's just as you grow, you have the other experiences that can make a place. I have some nostalgia at the very least. You didn't like traveling in general or just? Yeah, I mean, well, I liked it.

Now I don't particularly care for it. I have a love-hate relationship because I am happier sometimes when I'm just in a hotel room and can close the shades and lock everybody out. I know. Because I'm not dealing with, oh, I got to fix this in my house. You know, I come home and I get stressed. I'm like, oh, my God, I got to paint the house. I need a new roof. You know, all those things start kicking in.

But when I'm away, I can just focus on whatever it is I'm doing. Can I ask a question? Because I just want to know, you say from the jump jazz was in your life in the sense that, like, no other. You weren't, even as a kid in school, because, I mean, you said Berkeley when you were 11. And so I'm like, did anything else ever get into the household or into your ears outside of, okay. Yeah, I mean, I was, I mean, I listened to the radio and I listened to, you know, like my father started me off listening to what he would consider more rhythm and blues, which at the time, we're talking about the early 70s. But for him, like he played in horn sections with James Brown and Ruth Brown and people like that when he was in college. And so that's the kind of music he started me off listening.

to because she thought I would be able to relate to that, you know, more than John Coltrane on Miles Davis. So I was listening to lots of organ, you know, lots of blues, Jack McDuff, Jimmy McGriff, and, you know, some rhythm and blues, of course, James Brown, Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin. And those are the records, you know, a lot of the records that I remember, you know, as a kid. Can you tell me the first album that you purchased with your own money? No. Not just had around the house, like, oh, let me see what Dad's James.

Browns down more into, but like... Yeah, you know, like, I don't know if I purchased it, but I think I must have asked my parents to get it for me because I'm not sure they would have. For whatever reason, I was obsessed. And I remember I had one of those kids, it was green, too, one of those kids' phonograph players that had a little speaker built in. Right. Post-prispris or whatever, Fisher Price, record players.

Yeah, something like that. this record? What was the record? Oh, no, it was the Fifth Dimension. Oh, okay. It was, I was obsessed with Aquarius. Oh, wow. Yeah, for some reason.

Okay. The age of the Aquarius. I'm like, are you one? No, no. No, I'm a Leo. Okay. Boss, boss, boss. I forget me.

What, for that being the record? No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying. Oh, for being a Leo? No, it's for being a Leo. Yeah. get extra points if you're in a query. For drumming, though,

you know, I know that there's a sect of people whose opinions are like, you know, at least for gender pairing, like, there are instruments that probably deemed that men should use only as far as masculine or feminine, whatever.

Like, women on drums really, in my opinion, like, an adjustment pre-1980s. But, at all. Did anyone ever discourage you? Like, well, why don't you try the piano or maybe a guitar? Blyne?

Yeah. Clarinet. Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't know if anybody really ever discouraged me. I, um, and I was, you know, I was confident at a young age. So, uh, like,

I think what tells a story about that for me, the best is when I met Buddy Ridge for the first time. I was 10. I was a guest with Clark Terry. Was he nice to you? Well, that was the thing. Everybody said, stay away from him. He's in a really bad mood.

And I didn't care. And I went up to him anyway. And so then somebody stepped in and said, well, let me introduce you to Young Terry. She's a guest with Clark Terry. And he said, oh, yeah, you better not be any good. And I just looked at him and said, well, who's going to stop me? Ooh. And then he said, he kind of took a step back.

And then he said, you want to come play with my band? You see what I mean? Flax. Flax? No, but it wasn't that. It was beautiful flags. Well, yeah, because I think it's how you're raised. I was raised that this is my music.

Where did that confidence come from, Terry? Do you remember, like, did your parents something say to you, like the impetus of that? I think it's who you are. And that's why I do so much gender equity work now because every woman shouldn't have to be like me. I don't go head to head with anyone. man. You know what I mean? I'm not intimidated by anyone. I can be, I can be shy and I can be insecure. Of course, we're all insecure. If I was playing a gig next to you, I would be insecure, especially if I had to play groove. I'd be like, oh, man, he's sitting next to me. Damn.

She must be talking about Sugar Steve right now. Y'all, that's crazy, Amir. You're talking about Sugar Steve and his engineering skills. Fonte rhyming. Exactly. That's who she's talking about. No, I'm serious. And so I'm just saying that doesn't mean, I think you can be confident and that be a part of your personality, which doesn't mean there's these other things that, you know, aren't there as well. But you shouldn't have to be like me to make it, you know.

You shouldn't have to have that kind of personality as a woman to have the opportunity or the access or mentorship or apprenticeships. And so that's, you know, when I realize that, that's when I realized that, that's when I, because I had been looking at women saying, well, what do you mean? Just do it? You know, like, what do you mean? Just later for them.

You know, like, somebody discovers you. That should give you more impetus to, you know, then I realized, you know, they have nervous breakdowns and shit. You know, like, so I had to look at it differently. Because everybody doesn't have a foundation because you still had some type of foundation to let you know that that is the way to think. And these women didn't have that.

So. And they don't need to. That's the whole thing. We're all different, you know, we don't have to be, I was around nothing but men playing, you know, for a long time. And so I end up kind of acting like them, you know, and not be, you know, having a problem being around men all the time. So I think that, you know, we should celebrate our differences and what does a woman's aesthetic sound like in the music? You know, I think that's the

question we should start to ask. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl.

You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends... Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me?

The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe.

On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Ego Wode. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo.

Woo! My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet.

Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give you. it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat, just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right. It wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to thanks dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft, and we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galko, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar, this is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story.

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Gregalespian and Michael Marincini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Ameriopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't think I've ever went public on record with, in high school, I once had a master class kind of session with a. a well-known patriarch of jazz music. I guess he could say he was a total dick. And, you know, that's actually where I was leaning towards it. Like, especially there's a generation of cats who were sort of in the game in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s who, you know, don't mince words at all. They don't suffer any fools. They're very blatant and honest or whatever.

And this guy just tore me up, man. Like everything. I didn't even get on the set and he just looked at the loud shirt I was wearing. Look at my hair. It's like, oh, see, I wouldn't hire you because your hair is just like a girl's right now. You know, with them snakes in your hair or whatever. And like, he was just going in. And I remember, like, after that day, that day I, like, distinctively remember, like,

I'm not going the young lion route. Because, you know, I went to school with Christian McBride and Joey at Performing Arts High School. And so I was on that sort of track every day trying to keep up with those two and become a young lion. Like, you know, because all those cats in Philly were just like, even in high school, like doing sessions and what I, you know, I had the opposite reaction. I actually, that kind of like just got in my head and, you know, maybe like a year later, that's when. I decided, okay, I'm going to go the roots route because, you know, he told me that I don't look like a serious jazz cat. And, you know, it's, I'm, I'm glad you can buy him. Right.

That's what I'm going to say, well, where is he now? At least his man's. No, no, this, you know, this guy's a legacy god in the world of jazz right now, you know, no longer with us. but you don't want to you don't want to name his name no he knows what to say his name? Hey dog it was Ellis Marcellus I'll just let it out there Oh yeah well then that makes me well I just mean I've You know he was you know very kind to me actually he's coached just once but I feel like you're a disarming person

I feel like at the age of 10 you were very disarming With anyone that you met you know that would encourage you Yeah and I think that that helps you know with the gender equity work now because I'll get a lot of older musicians calling me saying, you know, I guess I've been an old fart or, you know, thanks for pointing this out. But, you know, the bottom line is he shouldn't have to be that and people should recognize what they're doing. And there are a lot of older musicians that basically bought into this, you know, patriarchy and brought into the, bought into the hypermasculinity. And what I'm finding is there's a lot

of young musicians from teaching at Berkeley, a lot of young male musicians that aren't digging the hypermasculinity. So they actually come to our institute because some people get it twisted and think that our institute is for women musicians or non-binary musicians. It's a space that they can come and make mistakes and learn the music without having their guard up. But we have about 50% young men in our institute as well because they're rejecting the hyper-masculinity in jazz as well. And I think that we're really seeing a turning point right now. It's starting to really shift.

And I think that the music needs that for it to live up to its full potential. So let me ask you as a professor then, this is about the patriarchy, because how do you, since it was a art form built on that, doesn't it come to a certain point where you're at an impasse in explaining? and, you know, because I feel like we're in this point, too, of sometimes, it's either that's what it was and we're trying to change it or how do we make that still legendary even though that was a problem? Like, how do we keep that, you know? The patriarchy was never good. It wasn't good for anybody. Right. It was white male patriarchy to be specific. But, you know, I think that the oppressed learn how to oppress without trying. Just, you know, that's what happens. And I feel like this was, you know, this is just, you know, my opinion.

But I feel like jazz was a space for black men to, you know, really feel freedom. Right. Black men. Exactly. You know, because, I mean, well, you go back. You know, I've talked to Angela Davis about this and different people because when slavery ended, you know, black people couldn't travel, right? Like, you couldn't go anywhere. And then when slavery ended and there was.

a little bit of freedom. The first one I think that people took advantage of was being able to move, you know, being able to go to another town and, you know, whether you're playing on the street or in a juke joint or wherever, you can bring your guitar and you could, but it wasn't safe still for women to do that, right? Okay. Okay. And these places were not places, respectable women should, women should be in. But they were, they enjoying the music, though. they, yeah, but not all women. You know, there's a lot of brothels. Right, right, right, I guess.

The music was in these places. Right. So yeah, so it was, that's what the music kind of, where it was birthed, right? So it wasn't, it wasn't spaces necessarily for women to discover their artistic, you know, they discover that they could actually do this. So they were always off to the side, in the house, in the church, wherever, you know, and of course playing piano. And that's why I think that's so acceptable, you know, women always play piano in the house and the church, right? So then when women started traveling and getting into, you know, music and the blues, a lot of it was as singers, right, as vocalists.

Then you had, like, you know, Bessie Smith and Mamie Smith and, you know, some of the first blues women, Ma Rainey, but they became also, like, sexualized and they had, you know, they were entertainers. You know, it wasn't necessarily as considered serious work. Musicians were doing the serious. You know, it was like, let's commodify this. We can commodify this, you know, woman standing up front singing the blues, more than we can commodify the dude with the guitar, kind of singing the blues. So those blues singers, the women, they sold more records.

You know? Okay. Bessie Smith was selling, yeah. So my point is it started off like that. And, you know, then later, of course, in the 40s, when the war happened, all the women emerged playing because so many men were gone. Going to war, right. What blows my mind is that when they came back from the war,

it seemed like the women disappeared. You know, it came back to the, you know, those practices. And none of this really, you know, surprises me. Like when I look up, I was ignorant to the story of Liberia. And I just kind of found out about that. About the return? Yeah. Yeah.

And like when I saw some footage of all the black people with the top hats and trying to look British and then colonizing basically the Africans, I'm like, well, why would I expect anything different in Jess? I mean, you know what I mean? It's kind of, or in music, you know, it's like when you're oppressed, you just like that you take that blueprint. Yeah, exactly, without even knowing it's wrong sometimes, you know. Yeah. So do you feel like the age of the abusive, like, and where we are now, like hip hop is changing where, you know, there's a.

Sort of like a slow seed change of a lot of toxic attitudes that were long associated with hip hop. You know, we're now just starting to see the seeds of it growing. And, you know, I will assume that if it's still a thing in the 50s and 60s, 2050, 2060, that we'll see a total turnaround. But like, kind of the age of the abusive actor in whiplash. Oh, whiplash. J.K. Simmons. That would be how abusive he was in Whiplash. When you seen that, was that to you?

Was it triggering? Yeah, I didn't see Whiplash, you know. What? When Whiplash came out, literally everyone asked me about it. Do people bombard you with it? Yeah, there's the other one about the drummer too, right? The one that was lost his hearing. I didn't see that.

Oh, yeah. That was the one with your boy. I'm about to say Freddie Mercury. Yeah, but I saw that, though. The Sound of Metal, that's the name of it. Sound of Metal, yes. The movie's amazing. That's just great.

Yeah, I have so many thoughts, you know, about that. But the first one that just came to my mind is, damn, how do I say this? No, say it. Politically correct. I just mean, like, you know, I'm not so attracted to, you know, white dude suffering from some drum lessons. It just feels a little like this one. God damn,

that's straight from the book of Fonte. White drama. I just mean like, yeah, you know, so like for me, like, there's a lot more suffering that I'm going to focus on. If I spend any part of my day dealing with that, I'm glad they made a movie and the drums are in it and that people liked it.

But, you know, he could walk away probably a lot easier than somebody else. And he actually, you know, historically, he had all the tools to, you know, fight back a little more

than some of us. So I don't know. But anyway, just as far as that whole method of teaching, I mean, yeah, of course, like I had like a well-known drummer

who's passed away and who was my teacher and he threw a book at me once. But he said, you know, He was frustrated with his career. And he quit teaching right after that. He was teaching at Berkeley.

And he said, you're playing my shit. You're not supposed to play my shit. And then he threw a book at me. Yeah. You know. I was just thinking that's got to be something for all these legends. I got to know. Please.

I share my name. You share your name. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. I mean, it's okay because I saw him and we, you know, had a beautiful time hanging out before, you know, shortly before he passed and he was living in Europe.

And it was Keith Copeland. And, you know, so it's like I didn't even, I loved him and I felt like he loved me. And I never, I think my parents were a little more upset about it than me, you know, because I just, I shrugged it off. You know, that was, I think that's been my way. And that's another thing I just want to point out since we're talking about it, everything that's happened, like anything negative, I've had to shrug it off. For me, I had to just act like it didn't happen to keep moving. And, you know, being in my brain, that's not going to stop me.

You know what I mean? Right. And so then you look back and it's hard, you know, you start thinking. Like when I started playing with Esperanza and Jerry Allen, they started talking about, oh, this feels good. Like, this is a space where, man, I can let my hair down. I don't have, you know, I'm not, what's the word? You know, there's like a protective layer.

Face space. I was trying to think of how Esperanza put it in. She started talking about an armor. that she was able to let go of and then Jerry was agreeing and I was only once in there saying like really? Oh okay cool whatever works for you

it took me years after that to understand oh I have those issues too but I just sweep him under the rug so well that I don't deal with it because it's just it's not useful to me I thought you was like the most free individual I ever met

yeah I was supposed to say this is very unusual Yeah. What do you mean? No, I'm just saying so many people plant seeds and, you know, they plant seeds of doubt in your head and you live with it. And I just love the fact that that wasn't even like you just ducted like a boxer. But it goes somewhere. Exactly. It goes somewhere. So that's what she's saying. That's why I know.

That's why I take back what I said because I'm like, oh, she puts it somewhere. It ain't, yeah. Well, I mean, I wasn't conscious of it though. Because, you know, you know what I'm saying? And so that's just a layer that The way I see it is it's hard enough to learn how to play music, any kind of music. But jazz, I mean, it's really fucking hard, right? So who wants that extra burden? Who wants that extra layer of, oh, and I have to deal with this? You know, like somebody hit on, you know, I didn't get hit on a whole lot, you know, without wanting to.

But, you know, if a band leader hit on me in the middle of rehearsal or, you know, I would just be like, oh man really good. Well you know fantasies are good let's go back to playing you know whatever and I never thought for one minute I'm thinking of somebody and I'll say it it was stand against and I never thought for a minute that it meant that I would lose the gig and then when I start talking to these young people all of that is going through their brain yes yes all of it's going through their brain and they're not standing for it well no but now But I'm talking about five, ten years ago. Oh, yeah, no, we just had to suck it up.

You just suck. You just, yeah, you just. But they were wondering, well, what do I do? Yeah. You know, I'm going to lose the gig or, you know, how do I? And they started thinking, I realized, wow, that never crossed my mind. I told him, get out of you. Let's go rehearse.

You know, and it never crossed my mind that he would hold it against me. So that means technically you've never been disappointed by your heroes in that way? Oh, maybe not in that way. You know, not. I mean, I'm sorry, I just had a flashback. But even that, you know, like if somebody, you know, you know, somebody's over your house, you come out and there, like, sitting there naked or something. You know, even that would make me laugh, you know.

Oh, no. Don't it depend on the legend. It could be real sad, though, Terry. He could be like, damn, come on, man. Yeah, but, you know, there's a lot of love. I think that black women have historically taken in consideration and all of these things. And I'm like, as long as I don't feel like, you know, you're about to physically harm me. Then I'm not really worried about it, you know, but what I keep trying to say is you shouldn't have to be that way.

You shouldn't have to go through the extra burden. And that's what I will then take somebody down for. So I had to talk myself off a ledge now all the time, but that's for other people, for some of my students. I'm like, they say, what? And I'm like trying to go to the run of the school to beat somebody down. I'm like, okay, we can't do that. Right. You know, I got to like now try to intelligently talk to this person or use language.

Yeah, you know. Terry, I always wanted to know, simply because I'm so drenched in hip hop. I have to be a shapeshifter. In other words, any track I hear, my first question I'm asking is, how would DJ Premier program this? Or how would Steve Ferroni drum on this? Or how would Tony Williams play this or whatever? So oftentimes, you know, I'm shapeshifting,

kind of in the name of being a human sampler. but when you're starting to drum, who is the drummer who sound that you were most attracted to when you first started? Based on, you know, you left Arsenio, I think in 89. So based on your symbol work, I always thought that Tony Williams might have been your North Star. But, you know, for you, who were your three gods of drumming that you had in your mind when you were drumming? Well, at the end of the day, it became, well, let me see, when I was 18, 17, it was Jack Dijanette, and he became my biggest mentor. I purposely stayed away from trying to mimic Tony Williams and Elton Jones to a degree too because their styles are so individual that if I hear somebody playing like them, it sounds like a character sure of them. more than anybody else, I think, because their styles are so strong.

So even when you're playing with Herbie or Wayne or combo, it's the temptation to not go there doesn't hit you at all? No, it, unfortunately, when I play with Herbie, especially in the earlier years, well, see, the thing is, you know, I played in six or seven different bands of Herbys. Right, depending on what project is. Yeah, exactly. So the first, the first long, term gig I had with him, we were supporting

this is the drum. And then I had to play these grooves like with computers, you know, which I had never done. And then, you know, trio, quartet, and then Gershwin's world, those were more acoustic. But then the future to future, which, you know, it was more, you know, some hybrid hip-hop stuff in there as well. But it was all, you know, mostly grooves. So when I was playing straight ahead in the beginning, yeah, Tony Williams would creep out because I realized whenever I heard Herbie from all the records, it was mostly Tony playing with him.

So that is the sound, you know, that my spirit related to Hervey, which was interesting because he told me that Jack Dejanette was his favorite drummer. And that's like my guy. Yeah, yeah, back then. Yeah, and that's my guy. So, so Jack DeGernette was Tony's story. of North Stars as far as... No, no, no, I'm saying Herbie told me... Oh, Herbie would say that?

That Jack was his favorite drummer. Over to me? Yeah, that's what you told me. Wow. Okay. To play with. This is, you know, many years after that classic, Miles Davis Quintest. So he, if you notice, I mean, he hired Jack on, you know, some of his records.

But anyway, so I thought, oh, that's my guy, so I'm good. You know, that's great. That's who... That's my North Star. But then, once I started playing... All this Tony snuck in, you know, which is interesting, just because having heard him with Herbie all those years. What is because a lot of the Jack stuff that I heard was more like fusion, like his 70s fusion work or whatever? How, like for me, Tony is so heavy on symbol work that you automatically, and his ability to stop time and just, you know, for our listeners today that, you know, I guess you can say that sort of.

the way that Chris Dave's relationship with time where, you know, he, it doesn't exist in his world, but it exists, but it doesn't exist. Tony was sort of, you know, that way straight ahead, but what, what do you think that Jack's trademark was? Well, I think I disagree a little bit about Tony in a time existing and not existing because I feel like, you know, Tony's beat was pretty, it was beautiful. It was so beautiful. His time feel. No, he would stay on rhythm, but do all these counter rhythms that...

Yeah, but that's to me mathematics. You know what I mean? Like, the counter rhythms, it's polyrisms. It's things that work within the structure of a beat. And so what attracted me to Jack was the opposite of that, you know, the time being elastic. And I hear him and it's slinky like a snake. It's slinky like a snake, you know.

It's in his touch. You know, I can tell Jack within a second of hearing him, you know, on any recording. Because it's his touch. Any great drummer, you're right. It's the rise symbol. You know, any great jazz drummer, their identity lives in their rise symbol. Now, some people like Tony, like a lot of great drummers, like Tony, like Art Blakey, Max Rush. also part of their identity is

what they've developed soloing. So they're licks. They're things that are signature. Right? So there are signature licks that you can say that are Art Blakey or Tony Williams or Philly Joe Jones. But with Jack, it's not really signature licks. There's no licks. It's like it's all more organic.

And the same thing, all my favorite drummers, Roy Haines, it all begins and ends with Roy Haines. He's the hippest jazz. I'm so glad you said that. Oh, God, my dad would be so. glad you said that. I just want to say this real quick. I'm so sorry to me to interrupt y'all. But for some of us, 89 is when you ended Arsenio. It's a whole generation of other folks that go, like from my father who go, little Terry, that was Roy Haynes. It's proletje and all of that.

So it's just for me, I'm going to continue on, Terry. I apologize. Yeah, no, it's beautiful. You know, just a sidebar. His son sent me a video last night of his granddaughter, which would be Roy's great-granddaughter. They had been asking, she had been asking for sticks, and he finally bought this little kid. She's three. Little kids set and sticks. It was the first time she even held a pair of sticks. And she was like, blah, blah, blah.

And she ended and flipped the sticks and put him under her arm. He was like, you're the first person. I'm sending this to. For our listeners that don't know, Roy Haynes is probably the elder statesman, I think, between him. Roy is 97 or 98. Still playing. Wow.

You're playing like he's 40-something. Yes. That's crazy. Like it's nothing. You know. And, you know, and with and his son, Graham and whatever, like, literally. Yes. I should mention he taught my dad, too.

That's why he's so important to him too. Drumming geniuses. Who's your dad? His name is Ron St. Clair, but my dad had a nephew that he taught named Dennis Davis. So we're just a family. Oh, I know Dennis. I knew Dennis, yes. Yes.

Yes. What? Dennis is it played with Stevie. Yes, Stevie. Of course. Playing by itself, man. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield. in this new season of The Girlfriends, Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck.

I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the Girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you get your podcast. I'm Agoe. My next guest, you know from Stepbrothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know

the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place they come. Look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration.

It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat, just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be... Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast

to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits, teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal.

The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring income. Consistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Lesbian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Were you part of the M-Base Circle? Yeah, I was there when Steve named it. Like he said, I came up with this thing, you know, macro-dash basic array of structural extemporizations. And I was like, good luck, dude. Let's see if that's going anyway.

Wait, I did not know M-Base was an acronym. What is it for? Macro-Dash basic array of structural extemporizations. Ooh. Deep. Wow. But yeah, we have a, we did a record, which I think was really the beginning of M-Base, that never came out. It was for Gramavision.

It was Graham. The horned section was Graham, Greg Osby, Steve, and who am I missing? It was Robin Eubanks. And then the rhythm section was Vernon Reed, Jerry Allen, me, and Kevin Harris. Yeah. Oh, man, you just opened up a door because I had a manager who was one of the top jazz DJs at Temple RTI in Philadelphia. Philadelphia. And, you know, in his mind, like, M-Base was the future, which is the reason why, like, a lot of M-Base, including, like, Cassandra and everybody, like, was on our first view records. Did you, at the time when you're in this movement, did you feel as though, like, okay, we are the new generation. We're the native tongues. We're going to, you know, push forward. How much pushback at the time from, like, jazz traditionalists were you getting?

Well, you know, when that started, like I moved shortly thereafter to L.A. to do the Arsenio Hall show. Actually, I was moving anyway, and then I got the show, and that just made my move have to happen in a week. I was out there looking for apartments. I was staying with Patrice Russian. What was the audition process like? You just dropped a lot in that one sentence. You sure did. P.S. another former guest of Questleff's pre. Yes, me. Our girl. Yeah, so I was playing with Wayne Shorter at the time. So Diane Reeves was my best friend.

She lived in L.A. I met her at that same time when Clark Terry. So she was 19 and I was 10. We were both guests with Clark at that time when I told you about the Buddy Rich story. Yeah. So when I went to L.A. And, you know, rehearsed with Wayne or we went to Japan. I would just stop in L.A. and stay for a while and stay with Diane.

And then Patrice. And Patrice, she was on Joy Rider. with us. So it was around that time. And so the three of them convinced me to move to L.A. So this was the end of 88. So I went right around Thanksgiving to L.A. and look for an apartment. And then somehow it was Nard and Michael Walden and Patrice, maybe one other person that recommended me for the Arsenio Hall show. And so I went in and I just played a couple of tunes with them. And I got to gig. But they were like, you got to be back here next week. We said, start tape, you know, we start next week, the day after New Year's.

So I had a week to go home and pack up in Fort Green and it was to Glendale, California. Oh. Yeah, and I had stayed with Patrice while I was looking. So the audition process wasn't very, I don't even know how many drummers they had. They had audition. Sandra, okay, can you play funk, keep play jazz, keep play, you know. Yeah, and, you know, Michael Wolf was in, so it wasn't, right. It wasn't any heavy funk, you know what I mean?

It wasn't any, yeah. But it was a great experience, you know, and I feel like it set me up, you know, more for doing the vibe TV show with very filling games. That's right. You know, more of a band that could play with anybody. So, like, we play with James Brown. We play with Alia. We play with Destiny's Child. We played with, I don't know, Rick James.

We played with, you know, just a lot of it was amazing. experience playing with all those people, whereas the first one, we didn't really play with that many people that came on. But you were saying something else. I fell down on the M-base. Oh, M-base, yeah. So what happened was they were moving on. And when I look back and that record we made, everybody had to bring in a song. And Steve had made this kind of criteria for the music of it not being straight ahead and having rhythms or grooves. kind of from more modern

because he was into James Brown but more modern grooves but with harmony and stuff moving like jazz but not necessarily in the traditional kind of 251 way and things that weren't in that kind of form like no ABA forms and that kind of thing. So what I wrote was more pop-ish

so to say and if you would listen to it Like, my song was the outlier on the record because I listened to everything he said and I did everything literally in these little sections, odd time signatures or whatever. And, but it really pointed to something more commercial, so to say, than their writing. And, you know, I know so many it was like a popery of music, but it was probably good that the record never came out. But so I didn't feel so connected. I feel like I was there in the beginning. but I wasn't super connected and I was playing with Wayne

and I was really just trying to do that gig because I hadn't really played a fusion gig. Like when I auditioned for Wayne, it was 14 drummers and, you know, I got the gig somehow. And that was my first real foray into just, you know, playing groove stuff. But I had been listening, of course, to Weather Report and all of that. And, you know, coming up, I mean, Earth, Winter Fire was my favorite band. You would ask earlier if I was, you would ask earlier,

if I was listening to all this other music. I mean, I remember the first place I was when I heard Go Go Go at a party. Excuse me? Where'd you hear Go Go Go at a party in Massachusetts? In West Medford. In Medford. What I said? It was a black community.

See, it's not. I know, but it's so localized. That's why I'm like, it made it up there. Okay. Yeah, of course. Yeah, Chuck Brown. And then I remember the first time, you know, I was at another one of those parties, you know, it was my first introduction to hip-hop.

I didn't know what was happening before that. Right. But, yeah, you know, so, like, I was listening to all of that stuff coming up. And, you know, I just as a sidebar, I was in B Street. So I feel like I was actually part of the... Wait, wait, wait, wait. Stop, stop. Hold on the street.

Come back. You didn't know that? No. Yeah, I'll send you a little clip. It was just like a quick cameo, but... Wait, when they were doing the ballet thing on stage? Yep. A radio thing?

Oh, I said. But I was brought in from Medford, Massachusetts by Harry Belafonte to play like this little drum fill. I'm sorry. These sentences are so compound that you give. I'm so sorry. I was fired by Harold Bela Fonte for the Beach Street came. What? Yeah, because he was the producer of Beat Street.

And I was playing in his band. So I had made an album that's actually going to come out 40 years later now with Kenny Barron, Buster Williams, and George Coleman. And I was, I was 16 at the time. So we had just done it. So at this point now, I'm 17. And Diane came to Boston with Harry. So I hadn't seen her since this Wichita Festival when I was 10. So we had a big reunion.

And I gave her this tape of my album. It was a green cassette tape. And she gave it to Harry. And then out of the blue, he just called. And we thought it was a joke, you know. There's a couple of people that called. we thought it was a joke. Benny Goodman called once too.

We definitely thought that was a joke, but it wasn't. And you were just hang up on them and like... Yeah, but Harry, though, yeah, we were like, come on. Amir, you are making the wrong movies around the wrong people. I'm like, when does this movie come out? This is a... I'm literally... Okay, I'm watching the scene right now.

I'm sorry. I had to pull it up on my monitor. Yeah, no, I was... I was talking about my Terry Lynn Carrington movie about her life because I've never... never in my whole there's never been a never never never this oh this is yeah you know it's funny yeah yeah so i feel like you know like on some weird in some weird way that was um you know that was the word i'm looking for it i was kind of predicting you know i've always felt connected to all the genres yeah i've always been a bit of a bridge you know with all the genres because

i mean i'm a jazz head of course but i mean i went through many years when i live in l a saying don't call me a jazz musician, you know, I'm just a musician. So then, you know, I had to come back, you know. Like, my dad was like, you can't run away from who you are. Yeah. And also you stay collaborating with folks. So I'm like, I know you still got your ear to the streets because, you know, you still got folks like Rhapsody on records and whatnot.

So. Yeah, I'm doing A&R now for Candid, which is an old label that John Burke and the team, that he's with Acceleration Music, they're buying labels. They bought Alligator Records. They bought Candid. They bought a hip-hop label, too. So I'm doing, you know, it's a dream that I always wanted, I always wanted to do. I read Hitman back in the day and I wanted to do A&R.

Yeah. And one day I was walking and I said, well, that's one, you know. You read Hitman and then still wanted to be the industry. Oh, yeah, that was what I wanted to do. Hey. That would have been the red light to be like, nah, don't come here. You're like, oh. No, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to be Clive Davis.

I wanted to be. You know, like, and so I felt like, you know, there was only two black women, you know, that were doing that were doing that, right? Susander Pass and Sylvia Rohn. Yeah, so when people ask me about glass ceilings, that's what I say. As a producer, as an A&R person, those are the places I felt more of a glass ceiling than playing the drums necessarily. Interesting. Oh, getting in the industry. Like you ain't got the ears?

Like, you ain't got the ears? Yeah, like, I mean, or like, I'm in some little jazz. box over here that, you know, I'm like, all of those people were attorneys. They don't have no years on me. So what are you A&R for right now specifically? Like, what do you, what do you look? Well, the idea with Candidam, it's all relatively new,

but it's to try to find people that are really merging jazz with hip hop. Ooh, that's fun assignment. Yeah, exactly. But it's a catalog label, too. And we're not going to say no to certain cool records. So the first record that I got done happened to be a live record with Wayne Shorter, Esperanza, and myself. And so that's going to be coming out in September, I think.

Okay. And then I have a new record that will be coming out on it too. And then the other person I signed was Morgan Garron, who's been playing in my band. But he's like a program dude. It's not necessarily hip-hop, but it's like, I don't know. It's kind of like if you took Wayne Sorter and had him like today and programming and using, you know, all of the things that are available today, you know. So. I have so many questions, but since we're just going all over the place, as a professor coming full circle now back to Berkeley, do you find yourself in a position?

So the year that I left NYU, I did NYU for like four or five years. And my last year, I kind of had an oh shit moment when I realized that my students knew more than I did. You know, we were talking about, I think my last class, I believe we taught about Thriller. And they had a lot of synth questions, like synth choice questions that I had to do extra homework on. I realized like, yo, these kids are smarter shit. Like, they know more than I do. As a professor, especially with where music is going in now, I don't know specifically the class that you're teaching at Berkeley,

but there's so many levels of musicianship as far as like gospel chop musicians and broken beat musicians. I guess now there's lo-fi kind of that genre of music, whatever. In your mind, not do you feel as if you have something to contribute, but do you sometimes feel like a stranger in a strange land with the way that musicianship is approached now? For instance, I have a member in my group right now who we don't know exactly how to describe what Stroh Elliott does, where he plays a drum machine as if he is Tikowski or like a piano player, where he's playing samples and whatnot. So with this whole new generation of musicians there, like, what is teaching a student at Berkeley in 2022 henceforth? when it seems that now is the time when the rules are being just washed away and new rules are coming in.

Well, I mean, that's really interesting because that taps on a few things for me. I try to stay around young musicians. I mean, everybody in my band is younger than me and people that wrote in a different way than I do. I'm talking about the social science band. So if you heard that record, I think it definitely pointed to, something different than I would have been able to do on my own, you know, because of the writing and the players, you know, like Morgan and, you know, Matt, and the ideas of mixing other genres, like, you know, somebody like Matt Stevens mixes more indie rock, Aaron Parks, you know,

like, he's into classical composers, you know, Morgan's into, you know, more of the kind of new school jazz. and then I had Casa overall who's not really with us anymore. Cochai is doing it, but Casa, you know, was definitely kind of into more of cocai. Yeah, jazz meet hip-hop.

So the idea was to, for me, to recognize, kind of like, you know, Prince did, right? And that's my favorite part about Purple Rain is that Prince was like, finally like, oh, like, you know, I need to, in order for me to remain relevant, And I have to let Wendy and Lisa write. You know, so for me, that was kind of like my reckoning with, I'm going to do much better, you know, with this kind of collective.

So I feel like I've always tried to keep my ear and my spirit to what's happening now, even though I can't do it like, you know, like they do. You know, I never had gospel chops as something that, you know, I just never did it. Never went to church, never, you know, played in church. and never developed that kind of technique. And I don't really hear the drums like that. But I can see how, you know, listening to this younger generation, how it has influenced me to some degree, you know.

And so as far as a strange land or strange land, I don't really feel that. I feel like I'm constantly being fed, you know, and it kind of, you know, in the end, you know, comes up my way. and I still feel like I can comment on what they're doing as a teacher. So you're still a student at Berkeley? Yeah, absolutely. I'm always a student, always a student.

But what they also taps on, though, is how jazz education has screwed up jazz. Because what I'm dealing with mostly are people that come out of jazz programs. And now the people in the jazz programs are mostly affluent, you know, from certain cities. I don't know. like it's all over really but people that had programs in school and jazz was kind of more of street music you know i mean it was from the people in their experiences it wasn't in academia exactly so the academia they started you know they were able to codify it in a way and then you know uh what's the word i'm looking make make money from it monetize it yeah monetize it but there

was another word. Commodify. Commodify. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I feel like now to get into a school, you have to be on this certain level and have gone through this system, which is, you know, is still dealing with, you know, it's, yes. It's prohibited for a lot of people. Yeah, and it's a racist, sexist system. You know, so. And income-based.

Well, that's what I mean. That's why it's racist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

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I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place they come, look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. and he's like, just give it a shot.

He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck.

Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft, and we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galko, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make, to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else.

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and literally just packing everything in the first one minute. Whereas where I tell them to do something, like my dad had a trick where he would make musicians just play a ballad, play something very simple. And man, they will all fall apart one by one. They would just like fall this. Like if you asked them to play tea for two or chopsticks, it was like asking them to play rights of spring.

So as a teacher, do you find it that, more students are now in this, we're in an era now where like your Instagram stories is 15 seconds. Like your TikTok is 30 seconds. Like you've got to have all the impact of an entire performance in 30 seconds. With, you know, they don't believe that much in space or quietness anymore. Like, is there such a thing as a drummer who just play straight ahead and

gives what's required or are you dealing with? like more gospel chops people that have to like have bells and whistles and fire eating and everything. Yeah. Fire eating. I love it. Time field is the most important thing, period, right? For a drummer, like if you don't have a time field, it feels good, then nothing else

really matters, no matter what the genre, you know? And then it needs to be, you know, I'm into playing free these days, you know. I was just kind of where my head is. But there's time in that, you know. It's not like free means absolutely no time. And I think the people that play free the best are ones they have good rhythm. But as far as the students are concerned,

I don't teach drums anymore. I haven't done that in probably like six years or so. I just have ensembles. And right now I'm the artistic director of an institute, but I do have two ensembles in that institute. And so I'm just dealing with the overall sound of the group more than individuals. But it's the same thing with all the instruments, what you're saying.

Is that hard to convey now to a generation that feels, like, to me, all-star games are the most boringest games ever in basketball because, you know, going to try to show off. Whereas a Golden State Warriors in Boston, sorry, by the way, I'm not. It's literally about teammate and you putting in your 20%, and him putting in his 20%, and doing 100%. Is that harder to convey on students now,

as far as ensemble is concerned? Well, I mean, sometimes I'm actually asking them to play more because that's the part of me that is like old school and jazz. Like, you know, like you got to, like, I'm fine. that a lot of them can't play consecutive eighth notes and construct lines that are interesting. You know, they've gone into this, like moved into something else. And I think they're using too much space sometimes. Like what you're saying, I would have thought like a little bit back in the day where everybody was just blazing all the time.

And yeah, that's tiring. I get tired of listening after, you know, a minute or two. That's another reason why I don't really listen too much or prefer to listen to the gospel chops drumming because I'm bored after I, you know, it's just, I get bored, you know, because I'm not a geek, a drum geek, you know, so I don't really care about that. And I think at the end of the day, that's what your job is to make the listener care, right? What is it that, why do we even do this? You know, so if you feel like it's to make them groove, that they care, you know, that's a level

of care, right? But I also feel like, you know, kind of coming out of a way short of a Herbie Hancock book, I think it's about touching the humanity in them, you know, exploring what it is that you share in common. So how do I inspire you? That's my humanity relating to your humanity. And so that's where my head is. And so sometimes when I'm listening to some of these young musicians, I can't get past their sound, let alone the notes, you know, because there's nothing. You know, because there's nothing in their sound yet. There's no pain. I don't hear the joy.

You know what I mean? So I try to get them to, you know, go back to the beginning. Like I remember once being on some, I got honored and there was a, I can't remember who it was, but there was a pro ball player. Must have been for the Patriots because it was in a Boston event. And he said, and I'll never forget this because this is how I feel too in music. But he said, you know, he was an all-star in college. Then when he got to the Patriots, they said, now let us show you, you know, how to throw the ball or how to catch the ball.

He had to, like, go back. He played it a little bit. And then... We'll go back to the basics. Burn. Wow. Yeah, go back to the basics. So for me, that's the same with sound, you know?

Like, why is it that Wayne shorter can play one note and break your heart? True. It's about what you're projecting, you know? So the greatest compliments I ever get is when somebody said, damn, somebody else just played that drum set. But then when you played it, like, wow, you know, the sound changed. And that's when I know I'm, that's right. That's what, because the sound is your spirit.

Right. You know what I mean? I would say probably the Mosaic Project is one of your most beloved projects. Could you tell me about just the whole concept of doing that album and gathering these, these women together to do this album and how it came to fruition? Yeah. I did a gig in Israel.

I had a gig in Israel called Esperanza. It was the first time, well, the second time we played together. And she was still, like, she had come out of Berkeley and started teaching at Berkeley. And that's when I met her first year teaching. So I called her and Jerry Allen and a saxophone player from Holland to Nica Posma. I realized I called three words. women for a gig just based on the way they played. I didn't realize that it was three women. Right. And this was going to be an all-women quartet until after I had, you know, booked them.

So it wasn't anything I was trying to do. I just wanted to play with the three of them. And I was like, okay, this is a big deal for me. Because throughout my whole career, people had asked me, oh, could you do this women's festival? Could you play with these women? And I was kind of like, you know, when I look at somebody like Mary Lou Williams who didn't want to play with other women, she was like, well, why would I want to play with them when I'm playing with the best? I was wondering how you felt about this.

Go ahead. Yes, okay. We kind of patronizing kind. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I shied away from it my entire career. And there was always be somebody like, you know, I played with Ingrid Jensen or, you know, Rini Rosness with Wayne, with Bernard Wright, you know, rest in peace.

And rest in peace, yeah. And there was always a woman here there, you know, Jerry back with Embase and before that actually. But never all together, you know, and I really shot away from it. So I did it. And then I said, this is a moment that I really want to celebrate and shine some light on. So I started with just the four of them. And then I just kept adding people. And it just became like 21 women.

And that's really just how it started. and I wasn't really trying to make any kind of political statement other than, oh, there are a lot of amazing women that play and let me just put through this record. So this is how the sisterhood started then? Because I was going to ask you,

is there a sisterhood in, well, I was going to say jazz. Really, of course, jazz when it comes to musicians, you know, of a sisterhood in that way. I mean, there is, but there's a lot of women that are playing jazz that still, they, They think about it, how do I say, not as much like a sisterhood because, you know, we're affected by the patriarchy too, right?

So women are invested in it. Yeah, they don't want to play with other women because they feel like it's a step down or something. But as more grates are coming out of the fold, how does it be, how is it a step down to play with Terry Lynn? Well, that's the, well, I mean, that's the point that it's only going to happen. That's why I started an apprenticeship program and mentorship program with New Music USA, because there's a lot. a lot of mentorship programs, but apprenticeship means you have to put them on the stage with you. Okay, good. And so we got a grant of $1.25 million to do this three-year program. And we had 86 applicants this first year, and we picked seven. And so, like, I did pairings. And so some of the mentors of Bob McFerrin and Wayne Shorten, you know, lots of different people, but some of the apprenticeships are with Chris Potter.

Linda Mahano, Esperanza. Marcus Miller. He took one, Alexis, which is great. She's having a blast playing with him. So I just feel like I thought, how do we get more men to hire women? Because if they don't really do it on their own because they don't necessarily know that they need to contribute to this shift,

how do we get them? So I said, pay them. You know? Once the men start hiring women, then the women will start hiring women. hiring women. No, no, what I mean is, you know, everybody has to be invested in gender equity

because it's for the good of everybody. Yeah. And I just felt like one way to get people interested is have it affect their wallet. If they're getting a free musician and getting, you know, a little money on top of that, it might make it easier. And it's, you know, so far kind of work, you know, this is our inaugural year.

But anyway, I think that, This last record, though, the waiting game is the one. It's the only one I can listen to. Let's put it like that. The other ones I can't really listen to. What? A waiting game I can still listen to. So I think that's, for me, my favorite of all the elbows I ever made.

Because I don't cringe when I listen. So you're still, like, in your head about, like, I could have did that better or we could have did a big different take or? Yeah, or just sometimes, like, Mozegra Project, the first one, I mean, I like things on the second one too, but the Mosaic project, I think the playing is good overall. There's like some sound things, like, you know, some production of things that really bug me. But, you know, playing's good overall, but it's a little bit far away from where I am as a musician. There's a little bit of my writing that bothers me, you know, that I'm like, oh, man, I could have really developed that idea much better.

and I've improved as a writer since then. So that's what, you know. But overall, I think, you know, the playing is okay. Oh, so you're writing these lyrics on Waiting Game. Okay. Well, you've been also singing on all of your records. That's, you've sung on it. Since your first album, you've sung.

Yeah, except this last one I didn't, you know. Okay. But on Waiting Game, I didn't. But I wrote all the lyrics, yeah. Okay. But, yeah, I've tried to sing a little bit. man you you got to i guess bucket list check a project um before she died um maybe like six months before amy winehouse died uh she was stalking me daily telling me that her and i were going to redo

money jungle and money jungle yeah uh the the money jungle album from uh duke ellington and max roton and Charles Minkas, the famous trio record. That's what I did that record. I know, and you wound up pulling it off. So we were planning me, her, most deaf, and a few other musicians were going to cover the entire album. Oh my God.

Right. And she passed away and, oh, man, I was just heartbroken. And then a year and a half, well, for the 50th anniversary, you actually, what made you want to cover that entire album? Because when I seen it, I was like, yo, what the hell?

like it came out. But I wasn't even mad at it, but what made you want to cover that album? You know, people ask me that all the time, and I don't know. It just haunted me. I don't know what made me choose it other than it just kind of haunted me. And I started reading all these Duke Ellington biography books. And I was transcribing, you know, on the piano, and I realized these are all mostly blues-based songs. probably the easiest stuff that Duke Ellington wrote.

And I knew that it was as far as I could go, you know, like with transcribing Duke Ellington, a trio record. Right. That's the easiest. Yeah. And it wasn't complex, you know, in general. So I kept flipping, like, you know, some of the songs to the point they didn't sound like it. So even, you know, Christian said when he came in the session,

he said, you know, you really could have just called most of these songs something. else. You know, you could have been your tunes. And then claimed it as your own. Yeah. But, you know, I just, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't bastardizing, you know, Duke Allenton's music. Right.

And I read enough interviews like, he said jazz. We stopped using that word in 1947. He said, jazz, that just means freedom of expression. And so when I realized that's how he felt, then I felt, okay, you know, about changing his music to that degree. Okay. And at this phase of your career, and you pretty much have done everything,

you've done scores, you've taught television, you've done everything. Is there something that you have yet to embark on that you wish to do for this phase of your career right now? Oh, man, I'm just getting started for a second. I mean, I'm doing so much now that I'm a little pissed that some of these opportunities didn't come before I'm, you know, I'm a little tired. I'm 56.

No, you ain't. That's a lot. I'll be 57 in two months. You look like somebody's baby. Thank you. So I'm a little tired, you know, and I wish that I had some of these opportunities earlier. Like right now I can tell you a couple of things. Really?

Really? He does this in 50s. Like, I've been waiting for this at 20. I think this is the time you're at least 41, at least 39. Fonte, say that again. Fonté say it again. Because you're ready for it now. If you got it in your 20s, you would have fucked it up.

Hello. Well, not Terry, but maybe a mirror. Yeah. Everybody would have, everybody fucks up. She started so early, so I don't know. No, but I hear you. I hear you. I feel you because I feel the same way.

And honestly, I hear what you're saying. We're wiser and maybe we're doing it better or different. But I feel like I'm the same person really. You know, 20 years ago, I would have been going on 37. Even 15 years ago, I would have more energy. And I feel like I knew most of the things that I know now. I just have a little more confidence now because I'm older. But if I had gotten opportunities, because the way I see it is there's a lot of,

and I say this when I talk to young women that feel like, Oh, we're not ready to be in the, if they're at North Texas or some days, we're not ready to be in the one o'clock band. I don't want to get the opportunity to play in the one o'clock band when I'm really two o'clock band material. And I'm like, wait a minute, there's a lot of marginal white men that have had these opportunities, you know, like that weren't ready. And why do we have to be like three times?

Oh, we have to be super dope. No, that's just the program that way, right? Right. So that's what I resent. I resent not having. having some opportunities when I was in my 30s and 40s when I really had the energy. But now I'm, you know, I'm burning a candle. I mean, writing, you know, projects, writing words, you know, like I'm writing a children's book.

I'm doing some film for an exhibition. Has anybody approached you about a something about your life because there is no one ever about you. There's nobody like you in the world. Like, this is never. Nobody's approached me yet about that. No memoir? No, I'm just trying to get my dad. He's going to like start because he has a better memory than me and he's 84.

Interview your dad right now. Yeah, exactly. I'm doing. I'm currently in, yeah, I'm starting, I'm going to interview my mom. Like, just, I think generally like everyone should just interview their elders and get all the stories out so that way that they're preserved. You know, I was going to say to you, too, I tried to, you might not hear the inspiration, but on, break you off, you know, that end drum thing? Right.

Break you off. So, like, I have an end drum thing on a tune of mine on the second mosaic, Patrice Russian song, When I Found You. Right. So that was like your inspiration from the end of break you off is what made me write that section at the end. But it's in 15, but I think it's 15. but if you check it out I don't know

I said once to Wayne shorter I wrote this you knew you were in my inspiration and he was like oh yeah wow

I'm like you were like thank you so much we should have asked when we ever see y'all on a stage together or on on an event

damn I should have asked that question because y'all never been on a stage together it's never too late now now now's the time before

I'm gonna tell Christian I'm gonna tell Christian make it happen there you go This is long overdue. I thank you so much for coming on our show. You've got to come back because I've skipped so many questions I had about your career that I've skipped. No, let's do a part two because I want to hear about Tia Fuller, Lester Bowie, Diana Crawley.

Oh, man. Lester Bowler, yeah. This will turn to a Jimmy Jam episode, I assure you. Like, Terry is actually like a four-hour episode on the real. So. But I have to go get tested. I'm still at my day job, sneaking on my lunch break. Thank you for existing, Terry.

Thank you. Thank you. No, that's real. Like, you, you know, I saw you drumming mad early and, you know, you were the first kid that I saw doing what I wanted to do for living. That was really inspiration to see. That's pretty wild. I never would have imagined that. And really, that makes me feel really good.

Thank you so much. He wasn't alone. Yeah. Well, on behalf of Laia, Sugar Steve, unpaid Bill and Fonticolo, this is Questlove. And we will see you on the next go-round. On the next episode of Questlove Supreme, we'll see you all. Peace.

Much Love Supreme is a production of I-Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I-Hart Radio, visit the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok. Podcast Network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed, I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodom. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be.

Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.