The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: Billy Porter Part 1

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

Billy Porter joins Questlove Supreme for a spirited two-part interview. In Part 1, Billy recalls his Pittsburgh upbringing around the stage and some of his earliest musical memories. The Emmy, Tony, and Grammy Award-winning artist also explains why he has fought so hard to be respected across mediums and asserts why his new EP, Black Mona Lisa: The Cookout Sessions, commands a new lane for himself — with an exclamation point.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clivert Show on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm Daniel Alarcon, and this is my friend. This is much more famous than I am. I wouldn't go that far. But I'm John Green, co-host of the podcast The Away End with my old friend Daniel. On our podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup.

Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Alarcon and. John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of IHeart Media, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing. Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. Coming up this seasonal math and magic, CEO of Liquid Death Mike Cesario. People think that creative ideas are like these light

bald moments that happen when you're in the shower. It's really like a stone sculpture. You're constantly just chipping away and refining. Take two interactive CEO, Strauss Selney, and our own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey. Listen to Math and Magic on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker,

a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program.

Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, folks, Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes here. We know there is a lot of news coming at you these days from the war with Iran to the ongoing Epstein fallout, government shutdowns, high-profile trials, and what the hell is that Blake lively thing about anyway? We are on it every day, all day. Follow us, Amy and TJ for news updates throughout the day. Listen to Amy and TJ on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Questlove Supreme.

I'm your host, Questlove. We have the family with us right now. Sugar Steve, fastest man in the universe. I am fast. I'm here. I'm so very excited about this. Yes. Wow.

Wait, what device was that? Hey, Bill. This is my very fancy whiskey glass. Thank you for asking. It's not a device. It's a vice. A chalice. Billy, our guest has a good drink.

too. Yeah. No, I'm having Diet Sunkiff's soda. First of all, where you find a sunkiss? In a campaign glass. Apple cider vinegar. Only a shot, Amir, only a shot. Laya, how are you with your fan? You good? Yes, shout us to all the

perimenopausal ladies. Yes, it is here. And yes, we are too. And we're talking about it. Yes, we are. Don't you love it? I love it. Hey, Hallie. Thank you, Hallibary. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, ladies and gentlemen, first, don't succeed. You try and you try and you try again.

And we will say that the, what is this? The third or fourth time is the charm. It's finally happening. Our guest is a multi-hyphen powerhouse of a talent and a human being. You know, I understand the term that they want to say, but I don't believe in Egot. I believe in ghetto. So right now you're a get. Okay.

I'll take it. Yeah, because I'm trying to go for a get. ghetto. I'm not trying to go for Egot. You are a Grammy Award winner. You don't want to go back to the ghetto. I love it. Yes. And a multiple Tony Award winner, a musician, an actor, an activist, an author, humanitarian, a Time magazine 100 most influential person recipient. You know, there's nothing to scoff at. We are currently ahead of our guest's brand new project, which is called be Black Mona Lisa volume two cookout sessions. Most importantly,

you are from Pittsburgh. I am. Yins, no. Can you add a title? Who can say Yens? I was about to say, my mom's from Pittsburgh, but I do not know the proper way to

address Yins. Yins is just you? Yins is just you all, y'all, whatever it is, just put Yens. How you doing? Wait, wait, wait, time out. Please welcome to Questlove. Supreme Tiley, Billy Porter.

Yeah. I'm going to add his title. He's also a Joy Bringer. He's a Joy Bringer. Absolutely. So wait, what is the proper way to use Yens? Because I feel like I'm an honorary Pittsburghian. Yeah. But I never use Yins.

It's when you're dealing with multiple people and you're talking to multiple people. So Yins is plural. It's like yin's plural. It's like y'all. It's a Southern Y'all or it's a Pittsburgh and y'all. You all, y'all, y'in, sex thing. I get it now. See, I didn't know that it was plural because I see a singular person.

I'm just like, yin's? Okay. No, yinns is plural. It's the only way to use it is plural. Absolutely. Jake is awesome from Pittsburgh just inform me that the term fuckyens is a term for. That can be. Fuck yins.

There's a sound bite. I don't know that many people say that, but that's proper. You will be using it correctly in a sentence. What part of Pittsburgh are you from? So I grew up in the East Liberty slash Homewood area. Okay. Like right on the cusp and the hood hood. I've heard my mom mentioned this place often.

So, okay. Yeah. East Liberty. Okay. That is what's up. He says Liberty. You just come. Bynes, Sliberti.

How long have you lived there? I lived there until I essentially graduated from college. I went to Carnegie Mellon. And what was your major? Drama. Oh, okay. I was in the drama department, honey. Your whole life.

No. Classical theater, darling. Daddy is trained. It's not a mistake. It's not by accident. What I want to know is because one of the last conversations I had, with you was I was watching everyone on the show knows my obsession with Soul Train and owning all thousands of episodes. And I remember your career as far as back as I think you were on the show, I believe in 94, 95, I believe.

Yep. I would say 95 or 96 because the untitled came out on Annam Records. That was my first album. In 96. And I was on with L.L. Kuljay was on the same episode as me. The Shamar Moore Soul Drain. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Shamar, yeah. That's how you guys. Yeah, post-duner, yeah. Yeah, so that's when I first became aware of you. Like, for some reason, I didn't connect that as you, even though I remember that episode well. Because I will religiously record that show.

So I'll start out, like I ask everyone, what is your first musical memory in life? Oh. that I stumped you? Well, it's not just one. And so it's hard to like, because there are many different layers of it. When you think of your childhood, what's the first moment of music? Church. Okay.

Singing in church, singing at Friendship Baptist Church, being five years old, singing a solo, being in the adult choir because I could sing so good. So they let me in the adult choir. till I was out of concert. It was a mass choir concert. I was marching up. I was in the front, in the soprano section. Okay.

I was a gospel soprano until I was 30. It's recorded, so you can go and listen to it and see that I'm not lying, or hear that I'm not lying. But yeah, that's the first memory. And I was marching up, and this really, really mean lady snatched me out of the line because she, decided that I was out of place and I shouldn't have been there because I was a little child. But does she have the authority to do that or was she the, really?

No, she did not. It's in my book. It was very traumatizing. How old were you? I was like seven or eight maybe. You were that powerful of a singer. You know the Clark sisters, right, obviously, right? Of course, yeah. So you know, Maddie Moss Clark essentially was the female James Cleaver. Okay. Right. She was in the Codiac Church, the Church of God and Christ. He was Baptist.

He was the Baptist convention of whatever. And he would go around the different cities and get singers from all the different churches, put them together and make those albums. So she did the same thing in the Pentecostal church. And so I was such a good singer that somebody took me down there. to Miller Street Church of God and Christ to be in the choir and you weren't allowed to be in the choir unless you were 16.

But what if your voice was excellent? What if you were the Aretha Franklin? Well, I'm about to say. Okay. And so I get there and they're like, he can't be here. And they were like, just listen to him saying. And I sang and she was like, sit out. She said, come on.

She said sit right here in front row. So, you know, so I sat in the front row and worked with Maddie Gnard Clark. I haven't really retold that story in a long time, and I thank you for making me think about it. Because I would say those are the two, that's a major, major musical milestone for me. Okay. Like the beginning, the first time that I really knew. All right. I want you to explain something to it because oftentimes, you know, and we've had gospel lessons on the shows and

Of course, for any black singer I know, I'll say that 85 to 90% of their entry into music is coming through the church. Yeah. Can you please explain to me? Is there a difference between a Baptist church, a Pentecostal church? So I would say we're not a monolith, right? So like back in the day, the difference between Baptist, and Pentecostal was the charismatic part.

The shouting, the speaking in tongues, and all of that was reserved for the Pentecostal people. The Baptist people at that time were still pulled up. Okay.

And they were still closer to AME, which was African American Episcopal. So if you went to African American Episcopal, you were probably singing classical music. You were probably

singing, you know, your choir was singing hymns that were traditional. You probably had like, you know, Liantine Price was your soloist. Okay. At the AME Church, Lianting Price was your soloist.

At the Baptist Church, Mahalia Jackson was your soloist. And I do it with music. If you think of Mahalia Jackson, balls to the walls, belting. Okay. Pentecostal, and I'm breaking it down through music,

was all about the coloring and the riffing and all of that. So if I were drumming, I would probably be at home drumming in a Pentecostal church? Yes. It was freer at the time. Now Baptist and Pentecostal are the same. Well, I'm a 70s church person. So I think the last time I really, really played in church was like 87.

And of course, you know, as a teenager and listen to hip hop or whatever, I would try to sneak in songs that were like break beats or play Top Billing by Audio 2 or Peter Piper by Run DemC. And the older people would look at me and start scowling like, mm-mm, don't play any. Like, was it looked down upon in terms of contemporary music or? In the Baptist church at the time it was expanding. Okay. you could push it. You could push it, but not too far.

Like, for instance, the Clark sisters were everywhere. But when you brought the sunshine happened, and it crossed over into the clubs, it was a problem. Just like the Hawkins family and Oh, Happy Day. You know, but those people were like, but we're over here preaching to the choir. They were pioneers because they were like, well, we're over here preaching to the choir,

and you're mad at us because we've broken through, to essentially sense. Secular. Secular, right? So isn't that the point? The Bible says go out into the world and preach my gospel. That's what the Bible says. So I was in that era where it was becoming more and more accepted.

I mean, now essentially, you know, I mean, and R&B and soul and gospel, they've always borrowed from each other. And nowadays, gospel artists are hip-hop artists. You know, Mary Mary is a hip-hop artist. You know, they came out, they were hip-hop artists. You know what I mean? Like, there's a whole

generation of folk now. You know, you listen to Jay Moss. You may as well be, it's like, you know, Kinky Sheared when she first came out, like, they're very contemporary, and they're borrowing heavily from the hip-hop tradition. Now it's house.

We were just talking to BB Wynens about the work that he's been doing with Louis Vega. And you and you with Frida, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But motivational music in that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Do you continue yourself a church singer still to this day?

Yeah, I'm a gospel singer. That's how you define yourself? I'm a gospel singer. Anywhere I go, I'm a gospel singer. You know, my mom, you know, I left the church when I was 16 because I'm a big old queen and I wasn't happy. And so I left. And I was like, I'm not changing.

God made me who I am. I'm leaving. And my mom had a problem with it. She came around and whatever. Before she passed, she passed in February. But before she passed, every time she would come and hear me or see me do something, she was so sweet. She would be like, I know you left the church and you left it for good reason.

But every time you open up your book. It ain't nothing but Nothing but Jesus. Nothing but Jesus. That ain't no lie. And it's true. It's like when I listen to myself, you can't take the gospel out. So how do you feel when someone writes a song for you?

Because I know that this happens with you, and it doesn't necessarily sound like you. What is your thought process in that? Well, people who are writing music for me are generally writing it because they want me to sing it. So for me, coming from a church background where it's about the spirit, it's about sharing your gifts with the congregation

and the message and the ministry, and then moving that into training as a classical actor and learning how to tell the story because the story is most important. So in the secular world, it's the same thing. The ministry and telling the story is the same. They fold into one. Right.

Bill, didn't you guys do this in a way? I know you did Sesame Street at some point, so I was like... Billy was on Sesame Street and he sang an Emmy winning song called Friends with a Penguin. And it was one of the, I will say, in the 15 years I've been there, one of my top five moments was this moment. And my girlfriend who was a producer of the show was like, it was one of the greatest moments you ever had on the show was you in that outfit, singing that song. And it was fucking magical.

And so like, just want to say, thank you very much because it was still to this day, one of my favorites. That's what I recognize your name. I'm like, I'm not that name, but I don't know. Billy, we have a lot of friends. We have James Sampliner. I'm talking to the Stark Sands over here who's like, ask him about this. Like, it's a whole, yeah, we have a lot of the same friends.

Literally just got off the phone with James Samplina. Y'all like cousins. Theater cousins, right? Like they are the cousins. Yeah. Yeah. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars. And now,

I guess also as the co-host of The Away End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist. And John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game.

I love its history, its hope, its heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Alarcon and John Green on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future.

This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. If I'm outside with my parents and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what? Today now, obviously, it's like 100%. They believe everything. But at first, it was just like, you got to go get a real job.

There's an economic component to community striving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail. And what I mean by fail is they don't have money to pay for food. They cannot feed their kids. They do not have homes. Communities don't work unless there's money. flowing through them. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of IHeart Media, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing. Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds and marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance and everywhere in between. This seasonal math and magic, I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death Mike Cessario, financier and public health advocate Mike Milken, take-to-interactive CEO, Strauss-Zalnik.

If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business. Sesame Street CEO Sherry Weston and her own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey. Making consumers see the value of the human voice and to have that, guaranteed human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top. Listen to math and magic. Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything.

Here, the Nick Dick and Poll Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Cougler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think? is. I don't know. You mean the, like, the president? You think Canada has a president? You think China has a president? Los Wau-Cruzette. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time.

I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at like. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. I like that saying. It is an actual Polish saying. Yeah. It is an actual point. Yeah. Better version of Play Stupid Games win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift.

who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm always trying to tell the story. And because my voice was so high

and it was so different and it didn't fit into anything or anywhere. You know, like my voice was so high that regular tenor roles in theater had to be transposed up a third or a fourth for me. So, like, I would go into auditions singing a regular tenor song, like, let's say, anthem from chess, a song that everybody in that era sang. Right.

And I would go in, and I would have to sing it a fourth higher from where it was ready. So I would take the music in and put it in front of the piano player, and it was like Mittens McCluskey, because there's, so used to playing it in a, you know, that they couldn't even like, so I had to start taking my own piano player with me to audition because people wouldn't be able to even looking at it. They wouldn't be able to understand the transcript. When I deal with singers, normally it's like you got to lower a few notches. Usually when in concert, they want to go lower. Yeah. But you want to raise it higher. At that time. Oh, okay. I feel like I've heard you sing Luther before and it had a little bit.

Yeah. I've done a few times. But I was very good with female altos with extension. I could sing those songs in the regular keys. I could sing I have nothing in the original key. Like I could sing that for real with no like effort, no screeching note like my top note if you go and you Google Oh Holy Night on the Rosie O'Donnell Christmas special. Yes, I saw that video

you would see. Google Oh Holy Night. That's Billy Porter Prime at that time. Listen to Love is on the way from the First Wives Club. That's Billy Porter like at my highest prime.

I mean, the high note that I hit at the end of Oh Holy Night was a high, I think it was an F above or F. for a G above that high soprano seat. Belt it. Who were the three singers that you patterned yourself after? Who were the singers that?

Who are your North Star? Who's your top three? Whitney. Karen Clark, here. And Aretha. Okay. Trinity. All right. Trinity.

Holy Trinity. I would imagine that, you know, those are the three that are everyone's choice. Is there a singer that's sort of out of that circle that he would be surprised that you gravitate towards? I don't think it would be a surprise. Okay. Well, I mean, I like Tom Waits

and Tom Waits has a horrible voice. I love that you love Tom Waits. God, you're making me Alanis Marsex. That was random. That was, that was, that was. Okay. But I feel you on the notes, the notes.

Loved her. Love that, that, she tells stories. Yeah. Don't you? And I'm sure there are more. You know, you put me on the spot now. I can't take it no one.

Not to step on your toes, boss, ma'am. But I was like, why are you thinking? I'm curious about the first secular show that you experienced because that's a part of your musical moment, too. I know you mentioned church, for real, for real, but what was the first? Your first concert or? This will be a surprise.

Wait, before we get to that, did you live in a no secular music household, or was that allowed? No secular music. music at all. Right. So who would you sneak and listen to? Nobody. Oh, you filed the rules?

Well, until a certain age, right? It was only secular music, and the music that I heard was on the radio or at somebody else's house. Okay. And it was always in passing. That's where you do all your bad shit at somebody else's house. So it was somebody else's house. You know, I loved Michael Jackson.

I loved Shaka. I loved, you know, Prince was. was a little... I liked it, but it was like, I felt like my mom could hear me listening to it. I got on punishment for Prince, so I understand it. And it was a little nasty. So, Gladys Night, you know,

but what's interesting about my journey is that it was gospel, gospel, gospel, gospel, gospel. And then in the sixth grade, I was bused to Risenstein Middle School during the second sort of desegregation moment. And I was introduced to theater. I was introduced to musical theater. And I got bit by the bug.

And so then I went right from gospel music to theater. And theater for some reason was okay with my mother. Because he didn't really understand it. Right. And so I was going to the Carnegie Library and taking out, 10 albums a week and listening to it while I was doing my homework. But I have to say, it wasn't until I was about 15 when I got a job working at Kennywood Park.

Where? Kennywood Park in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which is the amusement park. Okay. It's still there. Okay. But it's still privately owned. It's one of the last privately owned amusement parks that's still owned by the family that started it in the country.

I didn't know that was a thing. Okay. Yeah. Because a lot of them have been bought up by like six flags. Six flags, yeah. Like everything. And so I was by myself. I was living with the grown-ups.

And by grown-ups, I mean the college kids. Mm-hmm. In the motel out by the park because my mother was now going to drive me out to that park every day and come and pick me up. She trusted me enough to do that. She signed off on me having a job. I did six years. a day, six days a week. Four of them were different.

How old were you? 15. So were you emancipated? I was performing. No, I wasn't emancipated. Okay. Okay. I wasn't emancipated.

She just gave you permission to She gave me permission. I had to have written permission from her and take it downtown to whoever it was or she had to go with me or something to give me permission to work. And we were poor. So like, I wanted Jordan asked James.

I wanted to Chardon. And I was always the fashion. You, you Chardon. God damn. I forgot about Chardon jeans. I'm 55 in September. I'm 55 in September. I needed my Sergio Valente.

Sergio Valente, yes. I needed my stuff. And she said, you know, and she looked at me at one point. And she's like, you have champagne taste on a beer budget. You're going to have a job. And so I came home Monday with a job. And she said,

What? And I'm like, yeah. And I get to perform and I get to do, you know, and I'm doing this and that. She was like, oh, oh. And then she met the people. She went and she met the people who hired me because I went on a fluke to the audition. I went with somebody else. Okay. To accompany somebody else who had done it the year before, Curtis Clark. He had done it the year before. He's like, you need to come and audition because you get this job. And I did. And six shows a day. Six days a week. week, four of the shows were different. That sounds insane. And we had costumes.

Spontaneous or? No, so there were two groups. Okay. There were two groups and there were like 10 shows a day or something or seven shows a day at the same place. So there was Rasmataz, which was a band, a live band with three singers, three female singers. They had their four shows a day. What year was this? You don't know them.

85. They've been out since 79, weren't they? They were there in 79. This group was there. I know. Oh, my God. You may have seen it. I've heard of Razmataz.

Like, no, I did hard time in Pittsburgh. I know this name. Good. So they were Flash, and Flash did our shows to track. And all the shows were themed. You know, so, like, there was a TV show. There was a Broadway show. There was a dance show.

There was a, you know, and so ours had three male dancers and three female dancers. And so we did two different shows a day. Rasmith had two different shows a day, alternative. That was during the daytime. Then in the evening, both casts would come together, and we would do a show at 7, which was one thing, and then a show at like 930, which was a whole different show. Combined cast. As your first audition?

That was my first professional audition, and I worked my ass off for three seasons. I did it for three seasons. What point did you realize I have a dream to chase, and it's not where I am now? What was your goal, like at 13? The summer of eight, after I did my first musical, which was what? Which was Babes and Arms. And I played Gus Fielding, and there was so many people that I did. for it that every role was double cast.

And they told us at the beginning, every single part will be double cast. The cast list spent up. Every part was double cast but mine. And I'm like, what does that mean? You know, because I was bullied so relentlessly for not being able to play sports and being a book person

that all of a sudden I'm looking at this extracurricular thing. And if I'm not double cast, that means I'm doing something right. Yep. So I was bit by the bug, and then that summer was Dreamgirls, was on the Tonys. And I just happened to be washing my dishes in the kitchen. The Tony Awards came on. I didn't even know what it was.

You never heard of Dream Girls? I had never heard of Dream Girls. I had never heard of the Tony Awards. I didn't know what was happening. But all I knew, I was 11, but all I knew was that I was watching black people on a stage. the same kind of stage that I had been on, doing the same kind of thing that I had just done, right? But it was black people who weren't poor.

They were glamorous. They were in gowns. They were. And so I was intrigued, and they did that fight section into, and I'm telling you. And then Jennifer Holliday gets up and starts singing like, I sing in church. I did babes in arms.

I didn't think that was a possibility to sleepless nights the daily fight Oh, so everything was jazz in? Yes, of course. It's elementary school theater. You know, it's middle school theater. There was nothing black about it.

There was nothing current or urban about it. Right? So I didn't make the connection, A, that this was something that people did for a living. And B, that I, that I, could actually have a place in it inside of my authentic self. So I knew that wherever those people are is where I have to go. And they're in New York and they're on Broadway, so that's where I'm going.

And I made that decision at 11. Was your first time seeing theater in New York or did you, after you watched the tone, were you like, I need to go to a show. I need to see it. I started seeing theater in Pittsburgh and I started immersing myself in finding places to train and putting myself in the right. But I didn't see my first Broadway show until I went to audition for colleges when I was 17. I didn't have any way to get there, really.

I didn't know how to get there. I didn't know, you know, there was no internet. There was no, like, you have to, this is 1985. Like, there was no, I didn't understand how to get there. So I had to figure out how to get there in Pittsburgh. and it was through the theater that it happened because there's no music industry in Pittsburgh. Question.

So my relationship with, I'm telling you, I'm not going, is, you know, due to the numerous times that song gets chosen at Showtime at the Apollo. So, you know, I found out about Dreamgirls long after, you know, they're on the cover of Ebony and Jet. Yeah, yeah. And it's already like five years after the showtime. effect. So I knew

it Jordan Raleigh when she got her record deal, like I Am Love and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. And then eventually learned about it. So I've never, as a watcher of award shows as a kid, I didn't see that performance, but I do know it was a game changer.

So is that moment a seminal moment for black actors and whatnot? In terms of the importance of, I'm telling you, I'm not going, was that really the the flag planning moment for Black Broadway

to establish itself that we don't have to sing in jazz hands like proper Broadway style like we're allowed to it didn't happen often but it had happened before well I knew about like Stephanie Mills I saw the way when I was a kid and all of that but like

full out balls to the walls gospel like that and authentic had really only happened prior to that with your arms. short the box was God, which was Vanette Carroll, which was also Jennifer Hawley.

Okay. She was also in that. She was, okay. Yeah, but that was like the last, and don't bother me, I can't cope, had some gospel in it, you know, but like I actually have written a gospel musical with Kirk Carr. Of course you have.

But I'm trying to get going, because the last time there was an authentic gospel musical on Broadway with authentic gospel music sung by the people was your arm's too short the box with God, which was in the mid-Settany's. You know, Dreamgirls is not a gospel musical.

She's a gospel singer, but it was not a gospel musical. There have been gospel singers in musicals, including myself in Greece, Lilius White and everything she's ever done. You know, like, we have been in those spaces. That's fascinating. But not our stuff. So when Melbourne Moore

won her Tony for Pearly I've never seen pearly so I don't know what role she played but when she won was that She played Louiebel

She was the lead Okay But does she have a moment Yeah she sang I got love Okay She sang a few things But she sang I got love

And that was real gospel singing But it also wasn't really a gospel musical Mm-hmm Right You mean consistent

Gospel music In the musical Yes It wasn't There was gospel There was gospel there was gospel in it. And she was an art.

She was more of a traditional black belting singer. You could say it was gospel. You know, it is gospel, but it was, it wasn't like Jennifer. Jennifer was just... So you're saying that Jennifer was allowed to go zero to 500 and really

show an authentic. Yeah. Okay. And Melbourne Moore did too. Don't get me wrong. Melbourne Moore did too. And Stephanie Mills. did too. However, the music that they were saying was not gospel. It wasn't

gospel. It wasn't gospel. It was not gospel. And I'm telling you, was actually written to be a gospel, you know, to be in that space musically, if that makes sense. Just like home was not, right. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care

which I'll say it. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me

or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault in Our Stars,

and now I guess also is the co-host of the away end, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game, and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End,

we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer... Football is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was there. most loyal and sometimes only fan.

I love this game. I love its history, its hope, it's heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the Away End

with Daniel Auer Kohn and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money. It's financial literacy. Month, and the podcast Eating While Broke is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future.

This month, hear from top streamer Zoe Spencer and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum-Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. If I'm outside with my parents and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what? Today now, obviously, it's like 100%. They believe everything, but at first it was just like, you got to go get a real job. There's an economic component. to communities thriving.

If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail. And what I mean by fail is they don't have money to pay for food. They cannot feed their kids. They do not have homes. Communities don't work

unless there's money flowing through them. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman. Chairman and CEO of IHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season

of my podcast, Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing. Math and magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance and everywhere in between. This seasonal math and magic,

I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death Mike Cessario, financier and public health advocate, Mike Milken. Take-2 interactive CEO, Strauss-Zalnik. If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business. Sesame Street CEO Sherry Weston

and our own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey. Making consumers see the value of the human voice and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top. Listen to math and magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech in the future of humanity. The hosts always act like they know what they're talking about, and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Kugler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director.

Who do you think he is? I don't know. You mean, like, the president? You think Canada has a president. You think China has a president? Those law crusette. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time.

I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual Polish saying.

Better version of Play Stupid Games Win Stupid Prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick Dick and Poll show

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Is the off-Broadway lane with a slew of gospel plays there, is it that that lane had to be created because mainstream Broadway won't allow that level of gospel in?

I think you're probably talking about the gospel plays, the gospel musical. It had to be created because I'm asking you, is that the reason why that lane exists? Well, it's always existed. You know, it's an extension of what the Chitlin circuit was. Okay.

You know, so it's in that space, and I say that with reverence and not as a dis, you know, it's like, yeah, necessity is the mother of invention. Yeah. If you wanted to go see people

in a narrative singing gospel music, you went to a Tyler Perry play. Mm-hmm. Or David Talbert. Or, yeah. David Talbert, or whatever they were before,

he came in to the picture before those giants of that space came into the picture. Right, right. You know, it's difficult because Broadway is very secular. Broadway is very white. The great white way, ain't it?

Jesus, it's correct. Wait, is that literally why they come over? Oh, okay. No, but that's very fucking funny. It works, no. But Jesus Christ, Superstar worked because it's written by white people from a white perspective.

You know, everything that has anything to do with something biblical were written by white secular artists. White people, whether it's Andrew Lloyd Weber, which doesn't have been the amazing technical dream coat, and or Jesus Christ Superstar, they're good stories. They tell the good story.

You know, the prince, Egypt. It's a good story. These people are looking for stories to tell. You know, biblical stories are stories that very often have wide-ranging audiences. That's why they're doing them. But if you listen to those musicals, they're not gospel music unless you rearrange it and make it gospel, which then you get into rights issues and you got to get permission. and all of that. With your accolades and your legacy, and I don't mean do you have it in you

to withstand the abuse that it will take to establish or to get your production on Broadway, but with the claim that you have and the proof of your acting, how easy is it for you to manifest the gospel play that you would like to see on Broadway. Stories that you want to be told. It's still like Sisyphus.

It doesn't matter. It's still like... It's still like Sisyphus. Sorry to tell you. I was just having this conversation with the head of my production company and all of the passes that I've gotten on my film and television projects for the last you know, two years. Everyone.

They passed on, you know, seven different people have passed on a documentary about me. I have three Tony's, an Emmy and a Grammy, and I'm still getting passed on. Yeah, well, you still got more material. Maybe it's not time for that yet, because you're still doing it. What I'm saying is, what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter who you. It's different. Mm-hmm. It's not any easier.

of. The hill is still a mountain that must be scaled for everything. It's all good. But as we all know, it's like... You have got a point that you would be the one person as far as as this gospel situation. And actually, we're probably speaking it to power. This is just the process. But you're going to be that one person to bring all this together and put it on the stage.

Let me ask you then, because I don't... So my question to you, is how fucking exhausting is it to constantly have to push through life being resisted from childhood on and how do you not self-sabotage your journey? How do you not give up? I have friends who literally have given up and aren't here with us now.

Like, how do you just not just throw your hands up in the air and, like, I throw my hands up at least three or four times a week. Okay. I was put on this earth to do exactly what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. I have been given a gift. It is my purpose. It is my ministry.

It is my calling. I know that this much for sure. That's the only thing that I can return to in the moments where I feel like giving up. And when I tell you today was a day where I said I can't do this anymore. Do you mind sharing us specifically what happened today? Are you allowed to?

Yeah, it was the last three people who I pitched from my music documentary who said no. that's literally about, can one become a pop star in their 50s? Can that happen? If it can happen, it would be me. And that is the journey of this documentary. That is your life. My whole life.

And the thing is, is that I'm a black faggot in America. And I use that word faggot because that's how I'm treated. it's a violent word and everybody should hear it right just like grab her by the pussy right

everybody got on the news and change the word don't change the word bleep it out so people can remember what the fuck he's bad the reason why he has ascended to the heights

that he's ascended is because every person has given them a pass I don't get passes like that, you know? And so for me, it's like, I was never supposed to be here to begin with. I was never supposed to be this person.

Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Kickie Boots wasn't supposed to happen. And then when Kiki Boots happened, he was like, well, yeah, he's playing a drag cream. Yeah, we can see that. But that's it. That's where the cap is going to be. Emmys? Movies? You know, like,

you know, my biggest dream at 15 years old when I was finally able to buy my own music go hearkening back to that. You know, I went and started, I mean, by the time I was 18 years old, I had like 700 CD because I was like just trying to, you know, just like, who is that?

And what is this? And why don't I know that? And, you know, like, you know, just educating myself about, Bobbies about black music outside of the church. You know, my biggest dream was to be the male Whitney Houston, you know, and then all of us, and then here I am. So that's why this documentary is going to be dope. And can I tell you, Billy, when you watch that Rosie O'Donnell clip that you were on back

of the day, in my mind, because I follow your career heavily as not too many things that I haven't watched that you have been in. Yeah. In my mind, I think he wants that so bad. And so now that I know that Mona Lisa is the story of you becoming this pop star, it's got to be gut-wrenching. And also, people must have all kinds of misunderstandings as to why you don't totally feel fulfilled. Even with all of those awards, with all that stuff, you go back to that Rosie O'Donnell video, you go back to when you were signed as a solo artist.

And it seems like that piece right there is one of the lone pieces that's missing for you. Well, the thing is the gift, right? Yeah, yeah. And the singing is the gift for the first 25 years of my career, I couldn't break through in the acting world because the gatekeepers of that world were, well, he's just a singer. So then I scaled that mountain.

I win Emmys for best lead, an Emmy for Best Lead actor in a drama series as I get my favorite. Yes, Braytell. For the first time in history. And now it's like, oh, I didn't know Braytell did sing. That's true. That's true.

They were surprised when you started singing in pose. That's true. See, I didn't know you acted. I knew you could sing. I didn't know you acted. Oh, my God. Well, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no.

Again. But I know you knew. I knew you knew. 96. Like, I didn't know. Yeah, but people got on the Billy Porter train. People, because my career is over 30 years now. Right.

And Black don't crack and I don't look like what I've been through. People have gotten on the Billy Porter train at different stops. True. Right. So let me tell you this story about. So do you remember Sandy Gallon? Yeah, I used to work with Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson, Janet, Barbara Sryson, Neil Diamond.

So Rosie O'Donnell, he represented Rosie O'Donnell when I was in the revival of Greece. This is 1994. I sang Beautiful School Dropout. I did the arrangement. Go listen to that too. It's a gospel arrangement of Beautiful Drop. Ooh. I did the arrangement.

Nine minutes long. They destroyed it for me because they made me a cook. essentially. They dressed me in a white space suit, put me in 14 inches of orange rubber hair, just don't watch it. You also have to read the memoir. You'll understand all of them. But I meet with Sandy Gallen. He asks me what I want to do. And all of the things and multi-hyphenance that I'm doing right now is what I say. And he said to me, you can't do everything. You have to choose one thing because audiences can't. They can't receive more than one thing. And I said at 24 years old, and I don't know how I had the presence of mind to do this,

but I said, with all due respect, Mr. Gallin, once again, I'm a black faggot in America. If I choose one thing and it doesn't work out, I am ass out. All these years later, I've proven him wrong in every single way except the music. The music. That's what I felt. The music. The music. is the gift? What are y'all talking about? But you know what? Sometimes it's the songs too sometimes though Billy. Have you realized the song

part of the music? Like, you know, your voice is fucking stupendous. Explain this more intellectually than I am. But sometimes... They've been saying that for years. Black Mona Lisa has the songs. No, you got it. Black Mona Lisa you got it. You got it. There's no more excuses about that. No more excuses now.

There's no more excuses about that. Black Mona Lisa has the songs. I was there, I'm there with the top writers in the business. Andrea Martin, three months before she died. Justin Tranter, who's the number one pop writer in the business. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I, ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk

about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford

and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fultonar Stars and now I guess also is the co-host of the away end, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist. And John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over

30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history. its hope, its heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to The Away End with Daniel Alarcon and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast Eating While Broke is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your money. future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum

Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. If I'm outside with my parents and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what? Today now, obviously, it's like 100%. They believe everything. But at first, it was just like, you got to go get a real job. There's an economic component to communities thriving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail. And what I mean by Phil is they don't have money to pay for food. They cannot feed their kids. They do not have homes.

Communities don't work unless there's money flowing through them. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Coogler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know.

You mean, like, the president? You think Canada has a president. You think China has a president. Those law crusade. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus.

It was a good one. I like that snake. It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual. Yeah, better version of Play Stupid Games, win Stupid Prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was.

I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Poll show on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, Chairman and CEO of IHard Media, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest, minds and marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance and everywhere in between. This seasonal math and magic, I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death Mike Cesario, financier and public health advocate Mike Milken, take two interactive CEO Strauss Zalnyk. If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk and therefore run the risk of making

horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business. Sesame Street CEO, Sherry Weston, and our own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey. Making consumers see the value of the human voice and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top. Listen to math and magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Another thing that I wanted to talk about in the documentary is that because I'm theater-based, I'm corny. So that is a thing. Because I'm theater-based, and because I come from the theater, I'm corny. Theater is corny until these motherfuckers want to e-God.

Yeah. Until they want to go to a show. Yes. So they want to take their wife to a show or whoever the fuck it is. Yeah. All of a sudden, no shade. Right? Everybody has dreams and should, you know, but.

It's an interesting thing, no, Billy, because who are the successful theater, actors singers who have translated, it's like Bet Mitla? The doors are bolted shut for us. It's very few people. The theater does nothing but open our arms to everybody. And the gatekeepers of the music industry keep those doors bolted shut. It's not just me anymore. It's me.

It's Leslie Odom Jr. It's Cynthia Arrivo. It's Shoshana Bean. You see Shoshana Bean now because you need her to play your mother. It's the pigeonholing. They get pigeonholing. It's the weird thing because, ah, man, I'm frozen only because I'm realizing

how close our stories are parallel because so the thing is is that I don't know like if you were born in the musical film I don't know what your childhood journey was like music adjacent family yes

you know if I were a betting man you know I would have thought that I'm going to make it with the first love of my life which is music now okay I'm also insatiable by nature so of course like, you know, you got to get outside of yourself to see it.

But this kind of tortoise and hair journey I've been on with music has been so slow that even despite despite the accolades, I'd still feel like I've not made it. Of course, other people who have really sit on the sidelines get angry when I say that because it's like, dude, we would chop our left on. Yeah, I don't know. Is that about you as a person? Well, yeah, but my whole point is that. When my third chapter started happening, i.e. directing movies, it's like, all right, good news, bad news, Amir.

Everything you ever dream for your life to happen is going to happen. And I'm like, what's the bad news? It's not going to be music that gets you there. Correct. And despite me getting to a place where I don't feel like a sea list artist or whatever, there's this itching, this longing I have to just if I can just get what I have now but it's for my music because it's like

dude when you grow up with 5,000 records in the house when you play Radio City Music Hall at at 12 when you everything I've done with music it's like can I just can I just have this one thing God like can you

and there are people on this planet that don't even know I sing I sang on the show Did you watch the show? But it doesn't register. And it goes the opposite way for musician. It's like when you are considered an actor and you sing on a show, audiences do not receive you as a singer or a recording. They receive you as a character who is singing on a show.

When recording artists come and try to act, there's a little bit of the same resistance. Oh, yeah. But not nearly. As much is the opposite. But what if you look at it from the opposite perspective? Like if you have those other things and they're working great, it makes the music thing, Amir, like you've been crusading on music for your whole life and those other successes

make you want to get to that level of success with your music. Like you want to win the Oscar of documentary as a musician, which you haven't gotten to yet. And I feel like that's, is that a bad thing? I don't know that's a bad thing. That's how I look at it. The thing is, during the pandemic, I learned a lot about myself. and I learned there was one week, I think all of July, you know, like it was hard to walk outside and I didn't want a mask. So I had a car and that was the one place where I could just take my mask off and be out in the world and not have to, you know.

And I'm living out in the country. So sometimes I would do these four hour drives, you know, upstate New York to go to, you know. And I decided the entire month of July, I'm going to listen to the entire. roots discography and have a long conversation with myself, like, what is it about these 16 records that isn't fulfilling the dream of like, I made it? And some of these records are actually, you know, some went platinum, some won awards. But what is it about? So this is my conclusion. And a lot of it happened because, again, you know, I DJed a lot, you know, during the pandemic, I was DJing online.

And because I wasn't doing my club set, I was actually playing music I liked. So essentially all of 2020, I spent nine, 10 months, damn near three to five hours every day playing every type of music, which somehow I started to say, wow, I don't think I know how to write a song.

And then I realized, oh, shit, Every Root song came from sound check, came from da-da-da-da. We don't know what the melody is. So suddenly I'm realizing I have to write, learn how to write songs. So in the last five years, I've gotten a crash course on what a melody is. So similar to you with this Mona Lisa project, I'm literally putting the farm on this next Roots album. because it just now I'm embarrassed. I'm like, how do I have 17 records?

And people are like, talk, you guys are the earth went and fire of hip hop. No, no, no, no, the grateful dead of hip hop. And it's like we're still struggling to get to the place we should be. Right. So was that the goal, though? Yeah, that's an interesting. What's the goal to write singles? I feel like the goal is, is like you're the greatest live hip-hop band in the history of hip-

pop with one of the greatest emcees of all time. End of story. Like, does it matter if you have any singles? Is that what we're talking about? Can I just shout out to Rich Nichols and Dice Raw, who actually did make some really help make some great roots albums? Like, are you serious? Yeah, but come on, dog.

Laia, you're the first person I'm planting in the seed. When things fall apart came out, you fucked up, Laia. You asked me, hey, how come the big single that is breaking you guys out? Why is that buried at the end of side, too? Yes, yes, I did say that. Because my logic was, okay, in this hour, 15 minute record, I'm going to place the bait towards the end to make you guys listen to that. And you kind of eye rolled.

But come on. You understand that we live in a single society now. And not to hijack this interview because I'm going to get back to you, Billy. But my point was the goal for me, and people often say that like, oh, you guys don't care. Like, you're the roots. You do. I care. Because it's like the thing is...

I know you do. That's the thing. With this pedigree of knowledge of music, like the level commitment, I have more commitments to music than I do. Besides my relationship with Tarek, I don't think I've committed to anything as long as I've committed to music.

And to not, like to be able to tell people's stories and to study people and to write their books, but not to do it for myself, is almost rather jarring. And then, yes, I know it's a subjective opinion, but when you watch people significantly less talented than you are, it just burns me inside.

And so, but here's the thing, though. And this is why I went through that whole field to ask you, because sometimes I ask myself, okay, was it ever, meant in the cards for music to be my path. Because now I believe in listening to the universe. And I know I'm stubborn. I know I'm stubborn as fuck. And I want to control everything.

And I want my version of how I want my life to go to be gospel. Now I'm just learning like, all right, what do you all want me to do? And it's like my world is opening up every. where what music? So I'm asking you, are you willing to walk away from music knowing that other avenues have opened for you?

I wouldn't call it walking away because I've already done it. The reason why I've been able to have such an expansion in my life, you know, there are a few reasons, but the biggest one was 9-11. 9-12, 2000. and one, I lost my voice to severe acid reflux for about five to seven years.

And I had been asking the universe, I've been asking God, whatever it is that you, you know, I'm more than my voice, I'm more than my voice, I'm more than my voice. Lord, please help me understand and help the world understand that I'm more than my voice. Were you a New Yorker? Like, what was the... I was all over. I was in L.A. Was it psychological or?

It was totally psychological. And so when I lost my voice, I literally knew why. And I was like, okay, Lord, you know, because my voice, my singing voice was my identity. My singing voice was my savior.

My singing voice was what got me out, like the basketball players, like the sports people. It got me out of my circumstance. It allowed for me to be in space, where I could learn how to dream beyond my circumstance. So my entire identity was wrapped up in that. And I had, and the universe, God, whatever, knew that if I could keep singing and just get them jobs and them jobs that I didn't want,

then I would just keep doing that because I wouldn't have the courage to do anything else. It was in that five to seven year period where my mind was able to expand. It's like I've been given more than just one here. I can act. I can direct. I can write. I went to screenwriting school. I was like, wait, I don't have to wait for somebody else.

And George C. Wolf's one of my mentors said, you can't wait for anybody to ever give you permission to practice your art. You have to be doing it all the time, even when no one's listening. And most of the time, no one will be listening. That's why I have five albums. This is not my second album. It's my fifth. Catch up, people. I'm doing it whether y'all listening or not.

I'm doing it whether you're watching or not, and all of the albums are fierce. So y'all can catch up when it's time. But for me, it's like most of the time I can feel like that. Most of the time, I can harness the power of just being present and letting the universe take me where I'm supposed to go. I have ascended to heights that I'd never dreamed. I have a star on the Hollywood walking thing.

That wasn't a dream? I didn't even think it. You know, like, it's like, it's been magical. And simultaneously, my question, I start to ask myself the question today, when is it enough? No. When is it enough? I am enough.

Just as I am. I am enough. I have to say it to myself multiple times a day. Is this post COVID, Billy? Do you feel, because I remember some of your posts that you were making during these COVID times, and I really appreciated your truth and telling where life really is what you see, what you see and what you don't see. So how you feel today is that post, that feeling now that you've hit with people, you know,

from perception people might say a little bottom in that way? Yeah. I mean, I was always headed in this direction because of my spirituality, because, you know, I choose joy. I choose to be positive. These are choices that you have to make. They're active. I choose love. Love is active.

I choose all of these things for myself so that I could just stay sane. Because this world will drive you insane if you let it. So, I mean, so for me, it's about always landing on, you're enough, Billy, because everything on the planet will tell you the opposite of that. Many things will tell you the opposite of that. What year did your last album come out? What year did my, not Black Mona Lisa? Volume one, yes. Volume one.

Black Mona Lisa came out last November. The album before that, the album before that. The album before that was Gilly Porter presents the soul of Richard Rogers. Okay. And that was 2017. And then before that, it was Billy's back on Broadway, 2014. And then before that, it was at the corner of Broadway and sold live from Joe's Pub. And then the first one was 94, untitled on A&M.

Okay. But this one, you know, this, so the cookout sessions have come about because instead of simply just being, mad instead of feeling sorry for myself and what have you for me it's like well what's my plan and how am I going to

overcome this because I just have to keep working I just have to keep pressing forward and be the best version of whatever it is so I hired a new manager we hunkered down we made a business plan

And, you know, the cookout session is about harnessing my message, making sure that everybody knows who I am. You know, one of the things that I realize in trying to figure this out is there is confusion. How do I stop the confusion? Is he a singer? Is he, you know, like, you know, Sandy Gallet said. confused. People get confused. There will be no confusion, you know, because what I landed on is, oh, as a recording artist, I need a persona. I have to do what Donald Glover did. I have to be my version of Talis Gambino so that people are, it's like, oh, that's a different person.

That's a different entity. You know, I'm excited about that. So my documentary is Billy Porter is Black Mona Lisa. You're coming to see Black Mona Lisa. That's a whole different thing. Beyonce even did it with I Am Sasha Fierce on her fourth album. I feel like I have hit on something that has the possibility

to take me to the next level. Whatever that level is. Whatever the level is. The dream is to be playing out stadium. But the reality is I just want people to listen to my music. So question. Should you make it as Black Mona Lisa? Will you still have itching like, ah, okay.

Now I want to do this as Billy Porter. Because I'm still Billy Porter. Okay. And I've already established myself as Billy Porter, right? So now when the gigs come in and somebody wants me to go and do a theater gig, when PBS calls, right, and says, like they have and says, we want you to do Billy Porter and friends for New Year's Eve. Ooh.

Nice. I can do Billy Porter in that space. Black Mona Lisa is somebody else. So then I could bring back Mona Lisa on inside of my Billy Porter show. It really has to be that distinct, I think. At least I'm going to try to do it like that. At least I'm trying to do it like that now because I've tried all the other ways. So, you know, let's see.

Who knows? you know, but I think there's something in it. I'm really excited about it. And with the summer tours and with, you know, my tour last year and, you know, my imaging now, you know, and like, when you look at my

visuals, when you look at that stuff, it now can make sense because there's a separation. People who know Billy Porter from theater are confused by this music. Because they know me as a theater person. They know

kinky boots. So they're confused. You know, but you turn on Beyonce and don't have a problem. So if I'm Black Mona Lisa, then you can make the separation. Got it. See what I'm saying? Oh, that's your Sonshaferrous. Okay. It's your Sautsafiris. Hold up. This is where part one is. But you have to come back next week or check out your podcast feed for part two of that

QLS with Billy Porter. Because in that episode, Billy is more real and more. Raw about his activism for several causes. And shout out to all my pose fans. This is the conversation about his character, Pray, Tell, that you have been waiting for. Also, don't forget, make sure you check out Billy's new EP, Black Mona Lisa, Volume 2, The Cookout Sessions, which is out now. See you next time. What's Love Supreme is a production of Iheart Radio. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey,

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